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What Is Forgivable? A Conversation With Robyn Harding (Live from the Book Warehouse)
101 Plays4 days ago
This week on a very special episode of Friendless recorded live at the Book Warehouse on Main Street, host James Avramenko interviews thriller author Robin Harding about her novel Strangers in the Villa.
They discuss the inspiration for the book’s setup—a couple, Sydney and Curtis, retreat to an isolated villa in Catalonia, Spain, to repair their marriage after an affair, then invite in two Australian strangers who won’t leave—by a real trip and intensified by language and cultural barriers. They discuss character psychology, morally gray “damaged and damaging” behaviour, the cruelty of calling an affair “meaningless,” and Harding’s theme of “what is forgivable,” escalating toward an ultimately unforgivable revelation tied to exploitation and trafficking, raising questions of justice versus vigilantism. Harding describes her craft process, multiple POV, and how isolation strips away performance.
Find Robyn at robynharding.com or on Instagram @rhardingwriter.
Strangers in the Villa is out now — find it at the Book Warehouse!
📧 friendlesspod@gmail.com | 📱 @friendlesspod
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Transcript
Shifting Themes: Loneliness to Connection
00:00:00
Speaker
So there's a question I keep coming back to on this show, which, you know, initially used to be something along the lines of like, why are we lonely? But that has very much shifted because i get the impression there isn't one single answer to it, but I think we all have a ah general read on what's making us lonely. And it's shifted more now into this exploration of how do we continue to let people in even after we learn or see how badly things can go. Where are you going?
Interview with Robin Harding on 'Strangers in the Villa'
00:00:37
Speaker
Today's guest writes about those kinds of questions. She puts people in rooms together, whether through marriages, family, or just random happenstance. And then she watches what happens when the performance falls away and everyone stops pretending to be okay.
00:00:56
Speaker
Her newest book, stranger in the Strangers in the Villa, is about a couple who is retreating to Spain to repair their marriage after an affair and the two strangers they invite in who have so no intention of leaving, we'll say. ah it is a sun-soaked, slow burn, and deeply unsettling, which is honestly one of my favorite combinations.
00:01:18
Speaker
Please welcome to the show, Robin Harding. Thank you. think And I love how you tied the the plot and theme of this book into your podcast. Thank you. I was reading the book over last week, and yeah it was funny because at first, I wouldn't say I was struggling to connect it at all. It's just that I was sort of Because of the way you structured the book, I was sort of trying to figure out what was going to happen, right? you know I was much more just invested in the story itself rather than trying to you know connect.
00:01:44
Speaker
But then by the end of it, I was like, oh, okay, I've got questions. you I want to, you know... i Sometimes when we bring authors on, yeah i get more into sort of the weeds of of craft or concept or things like that. But I have questions about the book that I'd like to explore at first if you're par for that. happy So your main characters, Sydney and Curtis, you know they're trying to rebuild their connection in isolation, you know despite the fact that they're trying to connect, they're doing it alone a lot of ways. And because of that, one of their first instincts is to then invite in complete
Inspiration from Spain: Setting and Themes
00:02:19
Speaker
strangers. Yes, exactly. And I'm curious, what is it that initially kind of drew you into that tension between, you know, sort of escaping from the world, but then immediately letting
00:02:33
Speaker
the strangest part of the world in. Right, you know right. And it's interesting because I'm seeing, you know, a lot of reviews online and stuff and people are like, I wouldn't never let anyone into my home ever. Like, like every comment says that. yeah And I don't know, I grew up in a small town and I, maybe I'm a little bit too, maybe I'm naive. I don't know. Have i have I invited a stranger in? Probably not. But would I in that context? And I don't know. you know, the idea for this book came from a trip I took to Spain with my husband and a bunch of friends we met from Australia.
00:03:09
Speaker
And we met this couple who had moved from Sydney, Australia, and bought a house on a very remote hillside above the Costa Brava in Spain.
00:03:20
Speaker
And they were living all alone in you know idyllic surroundings and everything was going great. And everyone thought, oh, how wonderful. They're living their dream. Like, there's something they want to do and they're doing it. And all it was going
Character Dynamics and Thriller Elements
00:03:34
Speaker
great for them. But all I could think of was, oh, my God, like that's so isolated and so remote. And you don't speak the language. and You don't have your community. You don't have support.
00:03:45
Speaker
And I thought, what if you added complications in this marriage and then somebody shows up and and it just felt like the perfect setting for a thriller. Yeah, big time. And you know, the strangers can be, you know, the person you're married to could be a stranger to you. So that there's kind of layers of strangers in this novel. You know, something i always think about, I always have to kind of laugh about when, when you know, internet commenters are like, well, why did they do this? And why did they do that? and And, you know, what I don't think those questions factor in is the idea, you know, I heard quite recently, characters don't know what genre they're in, you know, when they're, when youre right? You know, so it's like, and because think about it in real life. You know, you hear a noise, you don't think, oh, I must be in a horror movie. you Well, I do. Right? I'm saying, but you know you know, I would say maybe rational people, I don't know. Yeah, that's true. People who aren't thriller writers, yes they think, oh, it's ah a branch fell. And I'm like, is it Max Warner? Here comes Mothman.
00:04:46
Speaker
right you yeah that's yeah yeah yeah Well, yeah, it's true. And I and i like to, um I always do character profiles before I start writing. And then I know these people pretty well. I know why they will make the choices that they make. And there are things in their background that whether they make it into the book or not,
00:05:04
Speaker
that inform the way they act. And also, you know, you need people to make mistakes in a thriller or there would be no plot. If everyone just did the right thing, it would be a very short plot.
00:05:14
Speaker
and I mean, that I feel like that's the case for everything, though. Yeah, it's true. Why would you want fiction of any kind where things work out? Exactly. Every plot is a problem over a couple.
Themes of Chaos and Influence of Liz Nugent
00:05:29
Speaker
There's often, in a lot of your books, yeah you know, it's this idea of of I almost see it as like the hurt people, hurt people type thing or like the damaged are doing more damage type explorations. You know, there was actually there was a quote, I think in the blurb, it says, you know, it's the damaged doing damage. It's Liz Nugent, who is one of my favorite and thriller authors and a lovely friend of mine. And she said damaged and damaging characters wreaking havoc on each other. Such a great blurb. She was my first reader.
00:05:57
Speaker
Amazing. And what a gift for that quote. But when you're approaching your characters, you know, you said you you make these profiles and things like that. Do you approach them sort of, how do I put it?
00:06:09
Speaker
Do you look at them as broken people or sort of just human? Or, you know, what is the sort of the line of internal differentiation for you around that? I don't know if I do differentiate. And I do always have some compassion for my villains also. You know, like I do think there are reasons people do behave in certain ways. And especially in this one, Strangers in the Villa, there's some really morally gray issues that come up with some of the bad things. Like I've heard a lot these shift allegiances a lot a lot in this story because... That was me reading, yeah.
00:06:46
Speaker
oh Yeah, because you're like, oh what a horrible person. Oh, wait a minute. and Now I understand more. yeah Maybe they're not the horrible person. Maybe someone else is. So, yeah, I think that um I don't think I define exactly whether they're I think i think it's all a part of being human.
00:07:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. and I mean, i feel like I could get that sense through the writing of. of Like you said, people tend to make choices based on the choices that they have made in the past. It informs what they're going to do based on what they have done. It's kind of the only way you can in a certain way, right? But there didn't seem to be any mustache twirling, you know, yeah just pure black and white villainy throughout. There's some very strong reasons why people are behaving badly in the in this novel,
Gendered Perceptions of Affairs
00:07:31
Speaker
for sure. there's
00:07:32
Speaker
So at one point, or at multiple points, you know, the way Curtis sort of explains his affair is he he uses the word meaningless quite often which I read as almost its own form of cruelty in a certain way the the sort of the reduction of not only the the pain he caused his wife but also the pain he's causing to the other person yeah involved. yeah He's sort of reducing the humanity of this other person as well and and
00:08:04
Speaker
From your approach, do you find that that sort of an internal or external interpretation of a word like meaningless, do you think that that sort of informs and changes what the betrayal actually is? Right. So what was so fascinating to me about this was I have a good friend who's a psychologist who is very helpful because I have transcripts of psychology that of counseling sessions, marriage counseling, which I couldn't have done it without her. yeah And she gave me this book to read, it and it was called What Happens After the Affair.
00:08:33
Speaker
I was reading it. It was so fun. I have to just add a quick side note. We went away for my husband. i went away and my daughter was dog sitting and I'd left this book sitting in my office. And she texts me and she goes, home um, photo about what is going on? i was like, oh, it's research. It's research. We're all good. Anyway, but so what was so interesting to me was that a man thinks that that saying an affair is meaningless makes it less right hurtful and a woman thinks it's more hurtful. Right? So he's trying to dismiss it like, oh, it meant nothing. I love you. And she's like,
00:09:08
Speaker
And yet you could hurt me so carelessly. If you actually fell for somebody, i would feel better because, you know, there would be thought behind there would be thought behind it and and and and emotion behind it. But yeah, it was just so so interesting the way men and women look at ah at affairs differently. 100%.
00:09:28
Speaker
without you know without without creating some kind of sob story narrative by myself but I buy my my marriage broke up because of uh Imdeli on her part which I didn't even actually know about until after the divorce and it was a whole thing but so I've read many of those you know state of affairs and all those kinds of right you know and and and I do find it very fascinating how the how do I put it the the the sort of social stigma of an affair yes behaves very differently from the actual internal logic of
Rebuilding Relationships Post-Betrayal
00:09:58
Speaker
an affair. Right. I find, you know, and and what I appreciated about the way you framed in your book was that, I mean, I don't know how spoilery we should get with the interview or not. Right. Because in a way, in a certain way, there wasn't an affair. There was a different thing. Right. It was so it behaves you know ah a greater level of betrayal, think. ah Yeah. And I think, I'm sorry if I can of course address, you know, like you would understand so much the outside, you know, everyone having an opinion on what you should do and them thinking if you're going to rebuild, we need to get out of here. We don't want everybody telling us,
00:10:35
Speaker
you should leave, you should stay, you should be angry, you should forgive. You know, everybody's got their opinions. I'm sure you know. yeah yeah And so for them, if they're going to rebuild, they're like, let's just quiet the noise and start over just the two of us. yeah But circling back to that idea of connecting but being isolated is is The way I've found that people need to sort of connect with each other is is's sort of counterintuitive to the way we are often taught how to.
00:11:06
Speaker
Right. Was any of that going into your thought or was just that it's a really great setting of of they're isolated, you know, of in terms of... I find often if you want to learn more about yourself, you connect to others. And if you want to learn more about others, you connect to yourself and so that you can be open to the to the other experiences. yeah That's a really good point. And no, I didn't think of that. yeah It's a great point that I did not think of. No, I just felt like very much the you know the getting away from the judgment and You know, i have been lucky enough to be married for 30 plus years to a great guy and love him to bits, but would I be able to live alone with him the hillside in Spain where I don't speak English? No! I would go insane. Even if it was like the healthiest. yeah I just think, oh my god, because I was like, how, why would you let these strangers in, right? Unless you're extremely isolated and
00:12:00
Speaker
you know, desperate. She says right when Sidney, when they knock at the door, she's like, she wants conversation. She's lonely. She's lonely with within her marriage. And so it isn't that, I mean, isn't that such a perfect encapsulation of, of I find one of the biggest reasons for breakdowns of ah whether there's marriage or any relationship at all is when you put so much into the one person yeah and you expect the one hold up. And it's like, we're not, we're not, we're not a creature that thrives on just one-on-one. Exactly. You know, we're a community. You need more than that. And they've both, Sidney and Bianca have both recently lost their mothers. And there's levels of um connection between the strangers. Big time. One of the things the book's for is not just, it's not just around the sort of the physical infidelity, but also the idea of the sort of slow, the slow erosion of trust that then...
Forgiveness in Strained Relationships
00:12:51
Speaker
picks up steam, you know? It's kind of the avalanche effect in a way, you know? In your experience while writing not just these relationships, but in writing relationships, how do you find people underestimate what will actually sort of break and what will kind of continue building pressure?
00:13:09
Speaker
If that, you know, is it, is it in a sense that like, Is it the trust itself or is it something else that finally sort of splits the scene? Right, right. Well, if I can talk to just Strangers in the Bell for a second. yeah, course. Because I think it kind of applies. I really wrote to theme of what is forgivable. That was in my head from the get-go. So sometimes a theme comes halfway through a book. You kind of figure out the theme. But I feel like theme is important. And, you know, I wrote it down. What is forgivable? And that is the theme for all these relationships. And, you know, we start with an affair. Can we forgive this? Yeah, we can try. can work on it. But then escalates. And then there's more and there's more and there's, you know, things that are happening in that house and between these two couples.
00:14:00
Speaker
And there's, seem you know, like payback and evening with score and things like that that come into it that just make it all very, very messy. And then there is something that truly is unforgivable yeah that would be the ultimate deal breaker. Because that is something, you know,
00:14:18
Speaker
but By the end of the book, one of the biggest internal questions I was asking myself as I was engaging with the characters and and what was going on was the question of what actually is justice.
Justice Versus Reality in Crimes
00:14:29
Speaker
Right. You know, because there's a sort of a systemic justice. Yeah. And then there's sort of a personal and then there's sort of a true, you know, justice. just as even possible. yeah The ending delivers a type of satisfaction. yeah But then when you actually think about it and you start kind of pulling up threads and you think about what's actually still there and what's still out there and what's still going on, you know you realize a violence or a harm or whatever yeah whatever word you want to use about it, you know it doesn't exist in a vacuum, right? And then how you decide who gets what from there. So I guess I'm asking a few different things at once, but i'll I'll tease it apart so we can get through it. I think we have to be spoilery about this. okay really I don't think we could dance around it too much, you know, because I also think that these are really, really important topics. i think I think what you explore in the back half of the book I think is really vital in today's rights current conversation around yeah you know very there is a president yeah who is directly involved in these kinds of behaviors you know yeah so um you know as you look at things like sex trafficking and as you look at things like you know exploitation and assault of of you know underage girls and how they try to coach that language how do they try to soften it you know and when it you know when it's very much not
00:15:49
Speaker
a soft thing. yes You said something about you know what is forgivable. and yeah and And I guess so maybe let's set the baseline here of what do you believe justice for something like these acts can be and is justice a achievable end?
00:16:08
Speaker
I know. So, you know, if, um yeah, so Sydney, our main character is a public defender. So justice is like ingrained in her. Like she's helping people who don't have representation, who may be marginalized, and and that's really important to her. It's not in it for the money. Who's in it for the right reasons.
00:16:28
Speaker
And then she finds out that her partner did truly the worst thing imaginable. And what was so interesting, since we're doing spoilers, as I was writing Curtis and his justification, yeah I was singing Prince Andrew.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yes. Right. I think you that's who i read you can convince yourself, you can forgive yourself for things you're doing and you can make excuses for what you did and you can pretend it wasn't as bad as it was.
00:16:58
Speaker
Right. And that's what he's done. There's that thing of we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions. Right. oh and That's how I read him. yeah Yeah, exactly. So he has created this. He's justified it to himself.
00:17:11
Speaker
And his wife's like, absolutely not. yeah yeah Absolutely unacceptable excuse. yeah And I'm going to like take out the worst punishment. But again, there's layers. And I mean, it is alluded at the end that she will try to get to the bottom of the greater problem.
00:17:29
Speaker
But as we know, that's not easy to do. And when it came to the resolution, it wasn't that I had a problem with it so much as it was one of those... But the problem is so much further than this one guy. And so it almost felt like he took a ah ah punishment in a way for not his crimes in a certain right way. Right. You know, obviously he had, you know, hit a roll. There's no exoneration of him. It's just that it's like the deeper problem is beyond him. Yeah. Right. You know, and and so it became.
00:18:02
Speaker
Yeah, it became punitive in a way that I didn't think was unnecessary so much as I was like, there's more, there's worse, there's right, you know? yeah and And so I guess that's sort of the next stage of this this question is sort of like, how far back do you have to go to figure out who the real victim is and and and who the, you know, I mean, real victim's even the wrong way putting right you know? yeah But, it you know, how do you maintain that sort of trajectory of, I keep on coming back to the word justice, but it doesn't like the right word for it. You know, like restitution or retribution or, you know, I think that's where for me was that it was a switch from, it almost became like vigilanteism, right? It did. Yeah, it did.
00:18:46
Speaker
But again, when writing that theme and writing, you know, these four characters, I mean, it's such an isolated world. They're yeah out of context. Yeah. They're far away from where they are from. And they basically say like when, you know, oh, I had an affair. So we leave the scene of the crime. They use the term scene of the crime. Right. So they're removed. I wasn't taking on big so this systemic yeah issues that could be dealt with.
00:19:11
Speaker
you know ah I mean, we we see what's happening in the world right now and it's impossible to deal with them in real life. yeah yeah you know And I wanted there at least to be some justice, like someone to pay. like It feels like no one's paying for anything these days. yeah right? and in In what we're talking about here. and So at least somebody really got their come up in and seen a book. Yeah. No, and I like and that actually really, you know, that it's funny that that actually connects to something that I was talking about in a previous interview with Susan Nielsen, who was on the show, was sitting right where you are, you know, a couple couple of months ago. And we were talking about the idea of how so much of fiction
00:19:50
Speaker
especially these days, you know, when we deal with things like, you know, speculative fiction or or or future narratives, it's always and everything went wrong and we've all fell apart and we all made mistakes. And and so we're we're sort of using fiction to model the worst case scenarios. Right. And we're forgetting that fiction can also model the best case scenarios. Right. You know, in a lot of ways, we use fiction to sort of dress rehearse reality. Yeah. and And especially I have to say crime fiction. Yes. I think sometimes people think it's like dark and wrong to to be inspired by something you saw on the news or some true crime that, you know, something about it is like, I want to know more. I want there to be justice. I want there to be closure. And we can do that in a book. We can take a crime and fictionalize it and figure out the whys and the, you know, what, what drove
00:20:40
Speaker
You know, I mean, it's not real, but it's it gives us answers and it gives us, it makes sense of behaviors and we can have some sort of justice in a book. Exactly. And it and it's, you know, and it's not, it's not real life. That's the point. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Fiction as Exploration of Scenarios
00:20:55
Speaker
You know, and I think that that's one of the things that always makes me laugh when people got to kind of hung up on this stuff of like, yeah well, it's not this or that. And it's like, yeah, because it's because it's not. Right. You know, that's the point of it.
00:21:06
Speaker
But it does then give you touch points of of if something similar were to happen, you weren't you don't just have the one reference of when they made the worst you know the wrong mistake or when it resolved wrong. It's like, oh, or it could go this way as well. I think that that's what I appreciated about this was that it does give, it gives a very definitive end to at least one of them. yeah Yeah, there's some justice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there definitely is.
00:21:40
Speaker
This show in general very often looks at questions around loneliness connection. you know and We've already kind of been when scratching at it when we talk about these characters. But you know we even we talked about Sydney directly invites the strangers in because, and she says outright how lonely she is. yeah you know And even within her marriage, how lonely she is. And and i was wondering if you can kind of
Loneliness in Relationships
00:22:01
Speaker
elaborate a little bit. I think we've talked a little bit about this, but if you could elaborate a little bit more on what exactly does it mean to be lonely within a relationship?
00:22:11
Speaker
Oh God, I think it's the worst, right? yeah Like, you know, like it's, it's much better to be on your own. You know, like I said, I am very lucky to be in a happy marriage, but I have been in relationships that were bad where I was like, I would way rather be alone, but then you're still sort of society wants you to make it work and you don't want to disappoint and you're needy and you want the companionship and you want what you think it means. And,
00:22:38
Speaker
you know So I think it's not an uncommon thing, unfortunately. And also, I do think that, especially in a city like Vancouver, where it's so expensive, I think people stay sometimes in relationships for financial reasons, too. yeah yeah Right at the cold open, we I was talking about this idea of the continued risks of opening up to people and and how we've talked about the idea of we're a communal animal.
Risks and Instincts in Connections
00:23:02
Speaker
And we we want to open up and we want to connect, but we also know the risks that come with that. And, you know, case in point, Sydney's instinct is to immediately open up to the Australians to help them and to to kind of kind of protect them in a way. Right. But that is ultimately what opens her up to the danger. Now, do you find that scenarios like this in fiction, sort of, do you think that they teach us to trust strangers more or not less? Or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and i you know And I'm not trying to drive that like, you know, fiction is the problem or something. But speaking of things like modeling and speaking of things like, you case scenarios, do you think that it has an ah impact in one way or another or in a certain direction? I don't think so yeah yeah so. I think people are so, you know, from what I'm seeing comments online, people are so firm on their, like, I would never let anyone, you know, in my house. Like I, yeah, I don't know. I'm, I'm the,
00:24:08
Speaker
kind of person that like has one glass of wine and tells you my entire life story and then goes, what did I do? oh my God, I'm so embarrassed that the neighborhood ripped the party or whatever. Or zero glasses of wine, they'll do it. yeah And then I'm like, oh, like I'm just very open. yeah And, you know, I'm sure I regret it at times. But I also, i have an isolated job. I'm an isolated person. And so connection is important to me when I can get it. And I don't really get it from being reserved. I often suspect that people think they'll do something in a scenario more than they actually would when faced with the scenario. Right. Right. Right. You know, it's the idea of the people who say like, oh, if I was there, that shooter would never but whatever, you know, and it's like it's the it's the good guy with a gun. fa Right. you know You have no idea. You know, unless you've been in a room where someone is firing a gun in anger, you don't know what you'll do unless you train. Right. You know. And so so sometimes I think that's part of the sort of exploration. and the question is like.
00:25:08
Speaker
you know, people think, oh, if someone came to my door, I would. Or you yeah hope you would behave in a really noble way and yeah and stand up and fight the bad guy. But would you?
00:25:20
Speaker
i don't know. Very likely, no. Yeah, exactly.
Monogamy vs. Polyamory: A Comparative Exploration
00:25:25
Speaker
Now, I've got one or two questions around sort of representations of polyamory. And I don't, okay i want to I want to couch it though, because I just, I want to make sure that this is not me trying to, I'm not trying to gotcha. I'm not trying to, you know, come atcha right. I'm genuinely curious about it I'm in a polyamorous practicing relationship. And so, you know, while the book itself doesn't sort of explicitly go into it, you know, the couple that arrives are
00:25:51
Speaker
They seem to be. Yeah, right. Exactly. But there is sort of something around the setup that I found really interesting around, you know, there's the isolated monogamous couple and then there's the sort of connected outsider, you know, who then ends up sort of toying with them a little bit. Right. You know, and I'm wondering, do you find and this could be either in sort of literature or in real life, you know, whichever you want to go with that.
00:26:13
Speaker
Do you find that monogamous connections build an inherent kind of pressure cooker or that the sort of that structure can potentially provide a sort of a um a certain kind of built-in failure.
00:26:31
Speaker
And was that a part of the sort exploration there? It certainly works for the plot, right? Exactly, yeah. I mean, there would be a little story if you were like, fine, okay, I'm totally open to you being with somebody else, right? It was this, again, these trust and issues and these parameters that are placed on monogamous relationships. So they do set themselves up. They're great for crime fiction, you know? Yeah, yeah. They're great for people being wronged and, know, and I think even in the open relationship, there are deal breakers that happen in this plot and the lines that are crossed. So, yeah, it's kind of like there's problems in both situations. And that's what I really appreciate about the portrayal because I've found in conversations that had throughout the years, you know, the misunderstanding that it's like being a calamitous means free for all. And it's like, no, there's still structure. There's still structure and rules. Yeah, yeah.
00:27:30
Speaker
i'm Funny enough, that my follow-up question that is, you know, the thriller genre literally will use a trope like, you know, open relationships or things like that as as as as a way to add danger or add a problem or a wrinkle to the to to the pressure, you know?
00:27:46
Speaker
But often it won't explore whether the structure of monogamy might be what's generating the crisis, you know? yeah Do you think that that is a choice that, you know, you as a writer can talk about around the sort of what form it implicitly takes right about different relationships, right? Well, I am in a monogamous relationship. never been in a polyamorous relationship, so I can only write on my yeah like it to my limited experience. You know, I wrote a book called The Swap that is actually about a couple swap, and all the problems are created by the monogamous
00:28:21
Speaker
yeah You know, the the, okay, well, we all agree that we will have this one night, two couples are friends, and we all agree it's all fine, and then it's just not fine, right? It's really, really bad, and it takes a really dark turn. And exploring it in this novel, Strangers in the Villa, it also just felt like this is just the world we live in now, right? I feel like it is very, you know, I've got kids in their twenty s and A lot of their friends are very open and you know I know that that is much more common than when I grew up and got married and stuff so it just felt you know and I also want to play with these age differences. I really liked having like a couple who's 40 think they're 40 or early 40s and then a couple who's in their late they're very different and I know what it's like to feel old. Like old and I'm not cool anymore and you know I used to be cool The world's passed me by somehow. I don't know when or where. They feel like, oh my God, like, you know, like, look at these cool young people think we're great. And you get like really flattered by that, hammered with that feeling. one of the reviews I read, talks about how the language barrier that's involved really, really intensifies that isolation. But it also doesn't overshadow the sort of characters' interior lives, you know? And I'm wondering, how did you...
00:29:43
Speaker
How did you use the the the physical isolation of the villa to to sort of externalize what was happening with where they were at the different stages within the within the sort of narrative progress?
00:29:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think that, you know, there are some some little trips, there's some day trips that they go to to explore. And even then, they're always isolated, right? Because they're not part of the scene. They don't speak the language. and They go to the local beach, but they still don't. yet And they still don't connect with people. And there's still just the four of them in this little microcosm, you know, and we even have a scene.
00:30:19
Speaker
where Sydney feels so envious of the Spaniards. Cause I've been that girl. Well, I remember when I was in Spain, look how much fun they're all having. yeah don' You know, I don't do that. i don't go and sit and have yeah three gin and tonics on a Friday night with my neighbors. Like, you know, we, it's just different here. Right?
00:30:37
Speaker
So they're always isolated. And the other thing that's great about the setting is that it is Catalan. So Catalonia. So they don't speak regular Spanish. Right. So you could even go. I've actually had friends who went there going, well, i speak Spanish. And they're like, well, they don't. yeah They don't speak Spanish. And they're offended if you do. Right. Like right like there's a whole separatist movement there. And so it's a politically complicated place as well.
00:31:06
Speaker
And really hard to kind of. crack in and feel like you belong so it just kind of works with the whole other layer yeah and it i just felt when i was there it's like there's so many and you know salvador dali is from there and he had a very famously open and complicated marriage and she was his muse we got to go to his house and his gardens and it's just so crazy and cool and awesome and you know I mean that was so many years ago and and they were so groundbreaking so just everything about that area I was like I gotta write
Real-Life Inspirations for Fiction
00:31:42
Speaker
a book here. I'm curious you know you write these thrillers and these you know you put these characters in these dangerous situations but now I'm hearing it's like you know it's inspired by like a trips you took. Yeah. do you find yourself you know out in the world and being like
00:31:55
Speaker
sort of creating scenarios where you where you go? and Or do you find you just like you enjoy yourself and then upon reflection you think about like, well, what if it had gone a different way? or Yeah, no, it it'll happen like on the trip. and I definitely was thinking of it about where I could take.
00:32:09
Speaker
I had a bit of a different plot in mind at the time, but I did know I wanted a couple. who had escaped for some reason, escaped from probably an infidelity or a problem. and And just so I was kind of thinking about it then, but it was that was like three years ago. And then I didn't write the book until i maybe two years ago now half a year and a half ago I remember I did a panel during COVID with Lisa Jewell who is like the queen of thrillers like she's my idol and she said when you are the writer you never feel afraid because you have all the control yeah right so I can be in Spain plotting a murder mystery in Spain and feel completely fine yeah you know because I'm the one that's
00:32:53
Speaker
yeah killing people off. I'm the one making the choices. You're the danger. choices Yeah, I'm the danger. So yeah, it never I never scare myself. Yeah. There's something, a little bit of a follow-up around the setting and the isolation. You know, there's ah well something um <unk>s something sort of gothic around these kinds of scenarios of people trapped in the house. And especially when they're trapped together, you know, it's almost like you've got echoes of things like Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? You've got echoes of The Shining in a way. Yeah, Rebecca. Right? Yes, yes. Great. oh Yeah. But what is it defined about these kinds of like confined spaces that that strip away social performance and then, you know, that that we often sort of normally rely on with each other, you know? But what what is it that triggers that, you know? Is it because you're like, oh, there's not as many people around, and I don't have to worry about my mask or what do you think that is? It's like a reality show. right yeah They're in the detention and they're all drunk. yeah right
00:33:46
Speaker
And I haven't really done that in a novel before having such an isolated location. um and I actually had been a little bit worried about just having four characters. Right. Right. And I was like, you know, usually there's a bigger cast and and more ways to complicate things. But with the backstory and all the secrets that everybody has in their past and and then the interaction between them and the layers of things going on there, it it did feel like plenty. yeah So it was yeah it was so fun to.
00:34:18
Speaker
you know, isolate them like this, but then to, you know, have little threads of what their lives were like before and who they really are when they're when they're in their natural environment of America in this case. Have you yourself been in scenarios where it's been like, you know,
00:34:35
Speaker
it suddenly gets to seal down into sort of the locked room scenario and suddenly somebody just is a totally different person than you were thinking. Has that ever happened in real life? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, yeah obviously, but I'm just curious if that's if you have personal experience. I have, actually, but it's more comedic than scary. I went, all my friends,
00:34:52
Speaker
40th birthday. So I grew up in Quenelle, BC and my friend from high school had his 40th birthday and he lives in New York now and he's this fabulous wealthy real estate agent who's done so well and he for his 40th he invited a bunch of his like hometown girlfriends and then all his like rich fabulous gay friends from New York and then some from LA and we all stayed in this very remote house in Buzios in Brazil. Oh my God. And there were two little cars and we couldn't walk anywhere and we didn't all fit in the cars. And it was an absolute gong show.
00:35:30
Speaker
ah be And everybody was fighting and people were moving out. And I mean, it was just like, it was so, then we went on a boat ride and the boat got like swept to sea in a storm and we had to be rescued. Like, I mean, it was, it was like, I still think sometimes I would like to write a a script or something about that. Yeah. but But yeah, being so isolated with these people that you didn't really know. my Everyone was great. It was just little clashes of personality or whatever. But yeah, it was... It's... Because it's not always like, the mask comes off and now you're in danger, right? It's just, yeah oh, that was what you were doing because you thought that's what society demanded of you. And now that that's removed, right you can do something else. Yeah. yeah Funny that you mentioned Quesnel. I worked in Barkerville for a few years. So Quesnel was the big city to me for those summers. It was like, well, Were you in the play or something? My first summer, i was a tour guide on the street. And then my second summer, I was one of the blacksmiths. I actually made i made the charcoal every day to fire, to make the the forge run.
Future Story Ideas: Setting in Barkerville
00:36:30
Speaker
and I feel so fondly about Barkerville now. But as a child, we had one field trip.
00:36:35
Speaker
And it was to Barkerville. And the bus ride was so long. yeah You always got cars sick. Yeah. um And you're like, oh, Barkerville again. And now I'm dying to go back to Barkerville. I mean, i haven't been in this 15 years ago now. But, you know, it was. Goldrush. Goldrush town. Strange, strange. That's a place i want to set I want to set a book up there. You don't get. yeah I'm saving that. Okay. Okay. Hands off Barkerville. One year i had this really creative teacher. to I always think what an amazing creative education I had coming from a small town like Cornell that is a pulp mill town.
00:37:09
Speaker
And I had this teacher who let us set plays in Barkerville. We had video cameras. Like you did stage them there. We got to go in. They opened up the, you know, like the Royal or whatever it is. they theater royal they let But no, no, in the little houses. oh They'd open them let us in so that we could put it on our plays.
00:37:27
Speaker
And we'd like have to creatively film around, you know, like pretend we're coming out of the well with our gold nuggets. And and I wrote one about all the women. The men were all the way and the women discovered all the gold. And yeah it was so fun. It's an incredible place up there. It's such a strange little pocket in the world.
00:37:47
Speaker
This is a little kind of just a curiosity around craft and things like that. Because, you know, you often... You're often writing around families, you're writing around you know marriages, parties going wrong, these kinds of things. right you know But there is this consistent thread of you know the the the thing you're most afraid of is already inside. kind of right you know It's sort of already, you you already let it in. Whether you think, you know even here, Sydney thinks she's letting the danger in with the couple, but it's yeah been there a while. you know yes Is that a kind of a conscious preoccupation or kind of reoccurring thing for you? Or is it just something that keeps finding you in your writing?
00:38:22
Speaker
I think I must keep finding me because now I've written eight thrillers and I'm really trying not to repeat myself. yeah I never, i'm never out of ideas. I'm very lucky. I'm i'm never out of premises anyway. And then i think it's perhaps when I create the characters and I love the psychology of people and I love the psychology of why people do the things they do, especially people who do either morally gray or morally terrible things, i I'm like, why would you do that? And I love to go down that rabbit hole. And so I think sometimes maybe it's that emerging is that, you know, we're we're taking people through plot, but it's who they are is what's really making that yeah happen, you know, making the problems happen. And actually, it leads into, you know, the the way you employ, you know, multiple points of view, you know, you know it it really strengthens not only just the natural narrative, but it it you you see the different justifications, right?
00:39:25
Speaker
How do you, well I mean, the first part of that is how how do you portray characters who are externally untrustworthy, but who are validating themselves, you know, and justifying themselves. How do you find yourself writing that? Is that, you know, I mean, I guess that's just called writing human thought, but you know, how do you consciously do that? It's interesting because I took a break from writing novels a few years ago and I was writing screenplays and you don't have that access, right? You're not inside somebody's heads. You have to show everything through action and through dialogue and be very subtle about it.
00:39:59
Speaker
And it was such a great learning experience and such a skill to add to the repertoire of a novelist, right? Because you then you're showing they're they're behaving in a certain way that is without having to necessarily spell out everything.
00:40:15
Speaker
But then when i went back you know when I went back to writing novels, I'm like, God, it's so great to be able to just be like, here's what I'm thinking. This is why I'm doing it. Like, it's such a gift. yeah It's such a gift to be able to just spell. Spell it out, yeah you know? But then what's so fascinating too is that then, you know, they're they're saying why and yet it's like, you know, i I'm especially thinking of Curtis who, yeah know you know, he he literally thinks he did something else. yeah He's so in his head that he thinks he's convinced himself yeah otherwise. And I don't know if I've ever written someone quite as deluded Curtis. Like he has really convinced himself that he is not a bad guy. And he is really, and I think that is quite...
00:40:57
Speaker
common in people who do really commit terrible crimes. I think people can talk themselves into believing lies, their own lies. I think they can also forgive themselves and justify things and start to believe the narrative. I you know i think that that is a ah human ability to trick yourself. Especially when you added you know drugs and all that. and You can say, oh, well, I was... what i Yeah, exactly. You have a lot of excuses. So...
00:41:26
Speaker
When you're laying that out for a reader, do you find yourself, you know, like how do you stay honest to the character that you're writing while also not wanting to kind of show your hands, you know, you show your hand to the to the reader too soon? Yeah.
00:41:40
Speaker
It's all about, it's it's all about, yeah, laying down the breadcrumbs you know, I do a lot of rereading as I go, a lot of editing as I go. that's i'm not a messy first draft kind of person. I am yeah go back and I go back and I go back until I'm so bored with it I can't. I've lost all perspective, right? But but yeah, it's just sort of a i feel like it's just sort of an inherent feeling. Having written 14 novels now, I feel like it's sort of just in me yeah to figure out where
00:42:14
Speaker
things need to be said, you know. And then I have beta readers and, you know, writer friends who so help me with that kind of thing. And and ble my husband actually is really helpful, even though he's not a creative person at all. but Sometimes those are the best stuff. Yeah, he's like the continuity guy, you know, like he's the person on, you're watching a movie and he goes,
00:42:34
Speaker
oh look the glass of wine was three quarters full and now it's totally full right and I'm like oh my god who cares yeah and but he notices those things when he reads right and and you they do matter in a novel just a little kind of closing out you know yeah to to very very loosely try to tie it back to the themes of the show, you know you know? What I'm often exploring in interviews is this question of, you know, genuine connection, you know? And and how do we how do we go about building that?
00:43:03
Speaker
And where do we go about building that? Is it only possible in real life? is it possible real life? But ultimately, I think, That's what all four of these people are looking for is is is a genuine connection of some kind, even if they go about it in the worst way possible sometimes. If you had to distill what the book is actually scratching underneath all of those kind of thriller mechanics, what do you think it's actually asking about sort of human nature and what we're looking for?
00:43:30
Speaker
Yeah. I think that it is that desire for connection is so strong um that removing yourself for some people is just never going to work. Yeah. Whatever your reasons.
00:43:44
Speaker
Just to to go off on a tangent. I watched this show called Neighbors last night. Have you heard of it? It's on HBO. It's made by Okay. And it's these people who have moved to Montana and To be all alone. but They've already made a mistake. They don't want to be around anybody. And they're having this huge feud with their neighbors. It's a documentary. And it just was so interesting to me.
00:44:09
Speaker
And tying to this whole theme of isolation that you're like, I don't want to be around anybody. But the person who lives... eight kilometers away, i'm going to have a feud with them. Right? Like it's just so interesting and bizarre and how you have to connect some way. Yeah. Whether good or bad. Right. Do you think that there's something inherent in us? I hate, I kind of hate this question, but it's just popped into my brain. Do you think there's something inherent in us to like find connection any way possible? Like you say, like, even if that connection is conflict, you know, like, like, is that ah is that a personal thing or is that a societal thing? I tell you, when you watch this show, you will say yes. It's also set in America and a lot of it is set in Florida. The fights between people and the, like, you're right. Like the the negative connection to some people maybe feels, and I do think i've I've listened to like, you know, i wrote a book about
00:45:02
Speaker
trolling, online trolling on the haters. And when I researched that, people like that. People enjoy that. Like they feel like it gives them purpose and connection by harassing somebody. yeah They actually like it. So, you know, people, yeah who knows what makes them feel like they're connected these days. It's yeah crazy.
00:45:21
Speaker
Robin, thank you so much for taking your time chat with me. I really appreciate this. Thanks for having me. That was really nice to talk. And I loved how you tied in the theme of this book to the theme of your podcast because I did not see the connection originally. Until you started talking, I'm like, oh, yeah. I mean, at first I was just in it for good read. And then I was oh, wait, no, there's more here, right? Well, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate that. The book itself, Strangers in the Villa, I will make sure there are links in the show notes for any listeners. Is there anywhere else you'd like listeners to find you?
00:45:55
Speaker
anything I am on social media. ah Instagram, rhardingwriter. Facebook, Robin Harding. Robin with a Y. And I have a website, robinharding.com. Fantastic. And all that will be in in the show notes as well. Oh, great. um um But one last time, just thank you so much. Thank you. I don't have a proper sign off, so I always end up just sort of trailing off at the end. Thank you, James. It was lovely to talk to you.