Transcript
Speaker: Bigger talks, bigger talks, bigger talks.
Speaker: We have another episode and oh baby, this one I'm excited about.
Speaker: Shine Talent Group.
Speaker: We help brands shine.
Speaker: And we got Miss Emily Ward and Jess, Jessica Hunnenshin.
Speaker: Did I say it right?
Speaker: They are the founders and CEO and owners of the Shine Talent Group based out of Toronto, right?
Speaker: Canada.
Speaker: We're in Toronto, but we also have a lovely team in LA.
Speaker: So Jess and I float back and forth quite a bit.
Speaker: And we're opening up an office in the UK right now.
Speaker: So rather international, proudly.
Speaker: Well, listen, thank you ladies for being on Bigger Talks.
Speaker: We're definitely going to have a Bigger Talks discussion because I have so many questions about the influencer space, influencer marketing, how you guys got started.
Speaker: So before we get into the details of how you guys help people scale their brand or you help brands, you know, return on investments or however you want to see it.
Speaker: How did you two get together and how did Shine Talent start?
Speaker: Where did this all come from and what was the intentions behind it?
Speaker: Yeah, so it started, we're almost at our eighth birthday, so going on eight years.
Speaker: But I had just recently moved to Toronto from Melbourne, Australia.
Speaker: And I was kind of in Toronto floating around figuring out what
Speaker: the heck I was going to do and was, to be honest, really struggling to find a job.
Speaker: I anticipated that I was just going to kind of go into public relations, which is what my background is.
Speaker: But I really struggled to find a job and through kind of
Speaker: I'll say a bit of happenstance, connected with Emily through a friend of hers that she'd known for years.
Speaker: And she connected with Em and said, I think you'd be really, you know, I think you'd get along really well.
Speaker: I think you're much more suited to PR than what I'm doing.
Speaker: So she connected me with Em and I went and met Emily, whose background is also in PR.
Speaker: So Em had her freelance business.
Speaker: Sorry, Em, I'm kind of telling part of your story, but
Speaker: Em had her freelance business at the time she'd gone, she was kind of in a big PR agency world, had her kids and then started freelancing.
Speaker: And so we kind of connected right at that time where Em had, and you know, anyone who's worked in freelance will know that like, you never want to say no to any job when you're a freelancer, because you're like, is it the last one ever?
Speaker: Somehow you like think that all the time.
Speaker: So Em kind of had like a little bit too much on her plate and I...
Speaker: came along and I was like, I could take some of this off your plate.
Speaker: So we started working together very kind of casually, I suppose.
Speaker: And that was in, you know, I think it was August of 2014.
Speaker: And when we came to kind of the end of that year, we were both doing some freelance work within an advertising agency and we're like, okay, let's set up like a ton of big meetings for the new year.
Speaker: Like, let's see who we can get a meeting with.
Speaker: There was kind of like a game for us.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: What big companies could we get a meeting with?
Speaker: And we got some pretty big meetings and then we're like, we can't go in as like freelance pals.
Speaker: Like we should present ourselves like somewhat professionally.
Speaker: So that's how we started Shine.
Speaker: So first we were Shine PR.
Speaker: As I said, we both came from PR backgrounds.
Speaker: That was very natural for us.
Speaker: So we started as Shine PR and it was only a few months into that, that we kind of started really looking at the influencer space.
Speaker: And it came primarily out of us running a number of like smaller events to kind of promote Shine and the launch of Shine.
Speaker: And with that, we invited all at the time, like the OG bloggers
Speaker: um so like we see the value that that they have um and we we want them at our events and at the time they were kind of more the like you know c d e list media for like compared to traditional media so we were like come to our events we see what you're doing we want you guys to be promoting shine and what we're doing
Speaker: So it started very kind of naturally organically from there.
Speaker: And we're like, no one's really tapping into like this influencer category in Canada at all.
Speaker: We see, you know, all of these influencer talent or these content creators saying, we know that what we're doing is very valuable, but we don't know how to ask money.
Speaker: We don't know what money to ask for.
Speaker: And the brands on the flip side and then other PR agencies were saying, we know we need to work.
Speaker: with social talent.
Speaker: but we don't know what to pay them.
Speaker: Do we have to pay them?
Speaker: We don't pay a journalist.
Speaker: How do we work with them to make sure that they deliver our clients' brand messages?
Speaker: And so we kind of thought we can sit really perfectly in the middle here.
Speaker: We understand both sides really, really well.
Speaker: And more than anything, we truly understand and see the value in influencers.
Speaker: So with that, Shine Influencers was born and we became Shine Talent Group
Speaker: like two years ago, a year ago, two years ago, sometime.
Speaker: I feel like we just evolved the name when, you know, we were really looking at like what we do now today and like the service offering and the talent who we represent today versus, you know, eight years ago, like has like evolved and really, you know, looking at them as talent as a whole and kind of giving opportunities beyond like just the social space felt right.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: So yeah, no, it's been quite the journey.
Speaker: You guys got in on the front end of this whole influencer marketing campaign, brand deals.
Speaker: You said a lot in that, Jess, that I think I want the listeners and the people who are going to be watching this to really pay attention to as a whole is that, you know, I always say relationships run the world, right?
Speaker: all because of a relationship or referral, you guys came together and look what you guys created.
Speaker: And I think it's not enough emphasis on that, that this is how Shine Talent Group or Shine PR started, all because of a connection from a relationship that you guys had.
Speaker: And I think people don't understand that, always say relationships are more than money, right?
Speaker: You can't make money, but you can't always have the relationship.
Speaker: But if you always have the relationship, you probably can always make some money.
Speaker: And I just want to say thank you, too, for joining forces and creating an infrastructure for people like myself and others to get brand deals, to have opportunities.
Speaker: On top of that, I also I'm into astrology.
Speaker: So what are you ladies' signs?
Speaker: And who is the big picture person and who is the detail person?
Speaker: How do you guys work together?
Speaker: I'm a Virgo, so I'm a September baby.
Speaker: And Jess, you're a tourist, right?
Speaker: I'm like the most non-Pisces Pisces that's ever been born.
Speaker: I look all the time and people are like,
Speaker: well, what's your like moon sign?
Speaker: I'm like, I'm just, I think I was switched at birth.
Speaker: Like I wasn't born on this date.
Speaker: I'm not a Pisces in my soul.
Speaker: When's your birthday?
Speaker: That's interesting.
Speaker: My birthday is March 14th.
Speaker: Oh, I'm a Pisces.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm like, I'm like a true Pisces.
Speaker: And I just like- Virgos and Pisces get along because it's the opposite.
Speaker: Opposites attract.
Speaker: There's so many people in my life, in my family, of course, Virgos.
Speaker: So I understand Virgos.
Speaker: They're analytical, they're logical, they're practical, they're the fixers, like structure, perfectionist.
Speaker: And we're more like free spirit.
Speaker: We want to help.
Speaker: We want to add.
Speaker: We're intuitive.
Speaker: So it all makes sense.
Speaker: But Shine, how did that name come about?
Speaker: Whose idea was that?
Speaker: Cause I think that's a great name and it's so simple and common, but why shine over anything else?
Speaker: How did that come about?
Speaker: We like batted around a couple other names.
Speaker: Like I know like spark was something that we had like talked about, like the idea of like, like igniting, you know, an idea igniting like programs, but it was, it was taken.
Speaker: And then I feel like shine, it was like,
Speaker: floating around us a lot like that word like I feel like there is a lot of a lot of talks about you know shining shine sunshine there is like a lot just I have like very like you know shiny sunshiny personalities and
Speaker: very much a contrast to the agency that we were both like working at at the time.
Speaker: So yeah, no, it just kind of came about and I think, you know, we said it and it just felt like really right, but it wasn't something that we like sat down and like listed out a hundred names and,
Speaker: you know, really try to center on something that way.
Speaker: It was just something that like felt right at the time.
Speaker: And we had looked at like maybe one or two other names beforehand and it was more practical than anything that those names were taken.
Speaker: So I came up with this other name and, and yeah, it clicked and it felt really right.
Speaker: That's beautiful because shine is such a authentic name.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You can't.
Speaker: There's no in between with the word shine.
Speaker: It was like, we get it.
Speaker: We're going to shine.
Speaker: And I like to say words have power and words have meaning.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I feel like when you say your company name is shine, I think that's what has to happen.
Speaker: We have to shine.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm telling a group my talent is going to shine.
Speaker: We help brands shine.
Speaker: So on the brand side and the talent side.
Speaker: First, I want to ask a more personal question from both of you guys perspective.
Speaker: What is you guys take and intentions on women empowerment in diversity?
Speaker: Cause when I went down, I think your company's list, I think you had a lot of women working in your company.
Speaker: So is this like women focused?
Speaker: Cause there's an agency that help women entrepreneurs get on podcasts, it's called Scouts Agency.
Speaker: And it's just women, right?
Speaker: Which is fine.
Speaker: But I'm just curious from you guys' general perspective, is that one of you guys' intentions is to help women shine and be empowered?
Speaker: Not from a talent space, but more so from like a personal space and place.
Speaker: Well, I think we like, of course, but it wasn't something that we set out in terms of like a pillar of the company to do in terms of an intention of the company from the start back at like Shine PR days.
Speaker: And why I think Jess and I like bonded so easily in terms of work is that we were both like pretty tired of the way that a lot of like the PR agencies and marketing agencies
Speaker: would work and motivate work at that time.
Speaker: It was, you know, PR agencies, they can be pretty like mean.
Speaker: And it just didn't work with either of us.
Speaker: Like, I just don't believe that you get the best work out of people coming at them harshly or kind of like leading heavy from the top.
Speaker: It just didn't feel great to us or even like being on the agency side with working with clients who are, you know,
Speaker: kind of jerks and pressuring results versus being collaborative.
Speaker: So I think in terms of women empowerment, it was more that we were going out to create a company that we were surrounded by people
Speaker: who like we really like loved and adored and like who were trying to operate like in kindness and do good work together.
Speaker: And that was the same thing that helped to, you know, lead what kind of like clients we would work with and what kind of, you know, talent that we would work with.
Speaker: It so happens that a lot of our team members like are female and it's not that we've ever like set out to do that as a majority female company.
Speaker: But I feel like it's just been the people who have been like attracted in like thus far to wanting to kind of join on in the ones who have like worked out well to this point.
Speaker: But we love men too.
Speaker: And we are very happy to have, you know, men part of our organization.
Speaker: No, I get it.
Speaker: I just, cause I don't like to assume things without knowing because sometimes we need more women in power to be empowered by other women, right?
Speaker: If you don't have the blueprint as a woman, or even as a man,
Speaker: how do you know how to be, right?
Speaker: I'm pretty sure y'all been in situations where there was neglect or rejection or resistance via men and women working in PR, right?
Speaker: So I'm also, I like to be clear about everything when it comes to like people because I think women don't get their just due, right?
Speaker: They don't get their just due of who they are and what they can do.
Speaker: And I think having a predominantly women workforce or task force for shine group says a lot about what women can get done.
Speaker: Look, I've gotten a lot of deals.
Speaker: I always say women will get you
Speaker: to the money.
Speaker: Women know how to get you in the door.
Speaker: Guys that get you to the party, women will get you to the door, get you in the door.
Speaker: And I think it's important for as a man and women to understand the power that both carry and have and how we can work together.
Speaker: Now, as far as brands, how do you guys
Speaker: How do you guys get your opportunities?
Speaker: How do brands reach out?
Speaker: I mean, you guys have been in business for eight years.
Speaker: Is it a competitive market?
Speaker: Do you work with other agencies to help scale your influencers talent?
Speaker: Like, how does that work?
Speaker: Like, how do you attract these opportunities and why do brands wanna work with Sean Talent Group?
Speaker: Is it the talent or is it more so how you guys conduct your business?
Speaker: I mean, I hope it's both, right?
Speaker: Like I think, you know, no question, we're incredibly proud of the roster of talent we have.
Speaker: Like they are top tier, number one, incredible 10 out of 10.
Speaker: We love them.
Speaker: And we wouldn't represent them if we didn't, I guess.
Speaker: And I'm sure every agency would say that.
Speaker: So, you know, no question when brands come to us, they're like, oh, you guys have killer, killer talent.
Speaker: But I find, and you know, we have in our team Slack channel, we have a team Slack, we have a wins channel and we talk all the time about like, and they're literally like some of them are teeny tiny wins and it will be as much as like someone saying something in an email.
Speaker: so much of what I see there is like a brand or an agency saying to us, like your team was so amazing to work with.
Speaker: Like, I cannot speak highly enough of that.
Speaker: So I, I want to say it's kind of twofold.
Speaker: Like sometimes they come for the talent, they stay because their experience is really good.
Speaker: Like our team,
Speaker: are amazing.
Speaker: Or then they might come back for the team and they're like, oh my gosh, you have even more incredible talent now.
Speaker: So I think like, I truly don't think they work without the other.
Speaker: Like you can have amazing talent if you hate working with the agency.
Speaker: Like it's a nightmare.
Speaker: Like it sucks, right?
Speaker: It's like you want to work with this amazing person on the other end of it.
Speaker: Like, I got to go through like, I got to kind of go through the mud to like get to them because I've got to work with their agent.
Speaker: And we hear that all the time from people's like experiences in this space.
Speaker: So I think they kind of, you have to have both sides.
Speaker: And I think our team do that really, really well.
Speaker: And you contribute having leverage from coming from the PR space that you guys have advantage, not over most, but semi advantage because you come from that world.
Speaker: So you kind of know what they're looking for.
Speaker: You kind of understand what their point of view is because like for me,
Speaker: being in that social space, like I kind of understand what brands look for.
Speaker: I know what they want and I know what they need.
Speaker: So a lot of my deals come via, I track them, right?
Speaker: But I don't know what I'm putting out, I'm intentional.
Speaker: So you guys been in the PR space, I'm pretty sure subconsciously, you probably know things without knowing that you know it's going to work.
Speaker: Yeah, we know how to weave a story really, really nicely.
Speaker: And as Em touched on before, the intention that we go into every deal with
Speaker: is like we want every party to come out as a winner.
Speaker: So like this is not like, and you know, I'm sure you've dealt with this before that there'll be, you know, something will go wrong in a collaboration.
Speaker: It happens all the time.
Speaker: And where you could fall back on the contract and say, well, as per the contract, A, B, C, D.
Speaker: we don't really find that strategy works for us.
Speaker: And we want to say like, okay, so sure, the contract might say this, but like, you're going to be super unhappy if that's the direction that we really push here.
Speaker: Are you going to come back to us again?
Speaker: Are you going to come back to this talent again?
Speaker: Probably not.
Speaker: And we're certainly in this for the long game.
Speaker: So we're constantly trying to problem solve to a point that everyone comes out feeling like they won and not
Speaker: not trying to like pull the wool over anyone's eyes with that strategy, but genuinely trying to find a way that we're like, okay, what if we shift a little here and a little there, and then this feels good for you and it feels good for you, right?
Speaker: So are we all happy here?
Speaker: And do we want to move forward like that?
Speaker: So trying to like very genuinely find an outcome that everyone feels really good about has been part of our strategy truly from day one.
Speaker: And I think that is why agencies and brands will keep coming back to us because like they know we're not, one, we're not in it for like a quick buck.
Speaker: Like we're just not.
Speaker: We want programs to go very well, both for the talent and for the team and for the brand or agency.
Speaker: And I think that you need to be collaborative to work.
Speaker: to come to those resolutions.
Speaker: I think it's pretty different to like compared to what people's experience was of working with talent management, like talent agents, like on the entertainment side.
Speaker: And I think the influencer space, like as a whole, like not just our agency, I think a lot of like the social talent agencies operate more in that collaborative space.
Speaker: Cause like, that's like the nature of the business.
Speaker: But I think people's impressions beforehand of talent managers, talent agents,
Speaker: we're more from like the entertainment world where like the agent's gonna like squeeze, you know, the brand for like as much money, like as possible.
Speaker: I feel like there is like something that we had to kind of, you know, move through together.
Speaker: And I think because of Jess's and my experience, like working at agencies,
Speaker: our team is trained really well to know how to be like a partner with the agencies and help give them the information they need to get, you know, approvals or get, you know, alignment from their brand client.
Speaker: So there can be a, there can be a lot of players in a collaboration, not just talent to brand.
Speaker: Sometimes it is, but like a lot of times there's like lots of different agencies and people who,
Speaker: who have different kinds of motivations or markers they're trying to reach.
Speaker: And Jess and I, like from our past experience, we get that.
Speaker: So I think our team is trained really well on being able to speak everybody's language.
Speaker: Yeah, and I think it's important.
Speaker: My thing when I'm working with a brand or talent, anybody, if we all win, we all win.
Speaker: It's not a me thing.
Speaker: It's not a I thing.
Speaker: It's a we thing.
Speaker: You have a job, you have a life, you have relatives, family, emotions, feelings.
Speaker: So I want to make sure you feel good.
Speaker: This is in alignment with what you believe.
Speaker: And I always tell people, I'm not a diva.
Speaker: You can tell me if you don't like something.
Speaker: Because it's a collaborative effort.
Speaker: It's not just what I think, it's what we think for the big picture of the campaign.
Speaker: Because once it's done, it's done.
Speaker: And it's also always tell people, I don't always have to be the person in the deal.
Speaker: Like if you say, for instance, you guys need help getting a client or talent for something and you might not have someone on your roster.
Speaker: Like, oh, you guys can reach out to me.
Speaker: I have a list of people like, here you go.
Speaker: Because what's the point of having relationships if you can't utilize them, right?
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: The old ideal that you said with agents and managers and plan for keeps and being selfish and trying to squeeze, it's like you don't keep those relationships longstanding because it's an I thing.
Speaker: It's like, no, I want to scale forever.
Speaker: I want to be able to work with sharing talent group forever if I'm exclusive or non-exclusive.
Speaker: How can we help each other?
Speaker: And I think in this influencer space, as it becomes oversaturated, at least for influencers, everyone's trying to one-up everyone, some of us, but everybody can win.
Speaker: Everybody can have a piece of the pie.
Speaker: There's a lot of work out there.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: So, you know, it's a thing that I think about a lot.
Speaker: And like I said, I get a lot of different agencies that come across and, you know, I've been part of the bachelor world and people need access to talent that I might know personally, like, here's his email, here's his phone number.
Speaker: I'm not going to be like, oh, you're going to work with me?
Speaker: Because it's a big picture.
Speaker: I look at five years, three years, two years from now, right?
Speaker: Who knows?
Speaker: Say, if someone, your equity company invests $200 million in your company.
Speaker: and you guys really scale.
Speaker: And then you really have opportunity, but people don't think of those things because they're all about self.
Speaker: But I like how you guys said that is, because one of my questions was, is it more about the brand or is it more about the talent?
Speaker: And I think you both answered that question because I had a...
Speaker: I don't know if you heard of Influential.
Speaker: I think they're part of the agency.
Speaker: And I've done a lot of work with them, but I had an opportunity to talk to Fidelity.
Speaker: They wanted to work with influencers on a campaign, and they wanted to know how they should go about it, right?
Speaker: And I always ask people and tell people, listen, at the end of the day, you guys are booking a talent.
Speaker: These are the people, if you have kids, if you have children, you have family members, these are the people that are getting the deals that has the opportunity to push out.
Speaker: So whoever's your child or your significant other, they're influencing you.
Speaker: So I always think about like, am I booking this person because of their followers, their engagement, or am I booking them as a person for who they are?
Speaker: And so from you guys' perspective, what is it really about?
Speaker: Like, you can be transparent, like sometimes it's really about the numbers, right?
Speaker: Because it's the bottom line.
Speaker: And sometimes we really want the right person that fits this brand because we just don't want anybody.
Speaker: Like, how do you guys gauge that and what works best in you guys' mind?
Speaker: I think as you said, like it can be a bit of both and it really depends on like what the goals are for that campaign to begin with.
Speaker: So understanding like what kind of impact do we want to have here?
Speaker: And sometimes it is like, sometimes it's like we need to get this
Speaker: product, service, whatever it is in front of as many eyeballs as humanly possible.
Speaker: It is purely an awareness-driven campaign.
Speaker: And then it might be just like pure vanity metrics.
Speaker: Like what impressions are you getting?
Speaker: How many likes are you getting?
Speaker: How many comments are you getting?
Speaker: Like that's important.
Speaker: But then you can look at like other types of influence.
Speaker: We've talked about this in the past, like the people who influence the influencers, right?
Speaker: Like who are those people?
Speaker: So like if you book a campaign with one of those people, yes, you'll get like their audience, but who else's audience do you kind of get as a natural byproduct of that?
Speaker: And then I'm, you know, I feel like people are talking now about people with invisible influence and like, what does that mean?
Speaker: It's like, who are the people that like will drive the traction that you don't necessarily see in the metrics.
Speaker: So, you know, again, like, you know, you can look at saves, shares, likes, comments, all of this kind of stuff.
Speaker: But what we will never, I mean, not yet, be able to is, you know, if I see something on your page and I'm like, oh, that's cool.
Speaker: Like, I kind of want to try that.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I want to buy that shirt you're wearing.
Speaker: And instead of being like, okay, follow link, put in code Eric 20, like instead of like going down that rabbit hole, I'm like at the mall the next week and I'm in the store and I'm like, I'm going to buy it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like there's no way of measuring that.
Speaker: Like I'm not saying to the sales associate, like,
Speaker: you enter Eric 20 here like that doesn't work like that um so I feel like there's something to be said as well for that and I think you know we we represent a lot of talent who are who are like that and they'll get a lot of dms from their audience saying like hey I bought that um cleanser that you recommended I'm loving it so like our talent will like send us those little screenshots so that we can show them
Speaker: to brands and agencies when they want to book them.
Speaker: And so this is the kind of impact that they have outside of what you might see.
Speaker: Yeah, and I think that, I don't know if you guys coined that, but invisible metrics, I think that's what you said.
Speaker: I think I did not.
Speaker: I would very comfortably put that out there that I did not coin that.
Speaker: I read it.
Speaker: I mean, I've never heard it.
Speaker: And so I'll give you guys an example.
Speaker: Five years ago, I had a campaign with a big company and they were pushing back.
Speaker: So I said, you know what?
Speaker: You guys can have the money, I'm good.
Speaker: with a nice piece of money.
Speaker: And I was like, okay.
Speaker: And he's like, no, no, no.
Speaker: I said, listen, you guys, because I always try to tell people like, yes, people have followers, but I tell people for me, you're not only paying me for my followers, you're paying me for who I am, right?
Speaker: The work I do behind closed doors to become a better human being, a better person and trying to scale myself.
Speaker: Because like you said, when my photo or picture is in Target or somewhere, you don't see how many followers are next to my face.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You don't see that the code to get the shirt.
Speaker: You just see the person with the shirt on or whatever it is.
Speaker: And a person wants to buy.
Speaker: And I think I don't know what type of conversations you have with your talent, but I always try to tell people who want to get into the influencer space.
Speaker: Like think about it from who you are as an individual, right?
Speaker: And what are you passionate about?
Speaker: What do you love?
Speaker: What do you give meaning to?
Speaker: Because if we just make it about followers and likes and shares and we're not thinking about the integrity of humans and what we say and how we say it, then why would a brand want to work with you?
Speaker: I know a lot of guys and gals who have hundreds of thousand followers, but what they're given on their social doesn't, you know,
Speaker: It doesn't contribute to what a brand would want for their niche, right?
Speaker: And they don't understand.
Speaker: Well, I got a million followers.
Speaker: I got 600,000.
Speaker: I got 700,000.
Speaker: But sometimes people look at numbers and they don't look at the intangible stuff that you can't buy, that you can't represent.
Speaker: So I think that's- I think that's the difference in like, do you want to build-
Speaker: your followers or do you wanna build your community?
Speaker: And that's like the real like difference there, right?
Speaker: Because like, and we talk about this all the time, like someone with 50,000 followers, but with like this like wildly dedicated community can be like way more valuable and more cost-effective than working with someone with a million followers.
Speaker: But like that person who has like harnessed that community and like keeps like giving and giving and giving back to them instead of trying to just like take, take, take from them is often going to like move the needle a lot more than like those like big follower people.
Speaker: So we, we try and educate brands on, on that.
Speaker: It's funny.
Speaker: It was just making me think though, because I feel like we used to have this conversation like a ton more a few years ago.
Speaker: And we would talk about
Speaker: like the micro data that you can get from the social influencer space and how it's like, it's like so different than any other kind of form of marketing where you can't, we'd give the comparison often to billboards that you couldn't really track how many people were seeing a billboard like on a road and how many people went and made a purchase decision because of that billboard.
Speaker: And we would say, you know, in years past, you know, marketing tactics were more evaluated, like
Speaker: quarter by quarter on sales, you know, based on the activities that they chose.
Speaker: And I do feel like a lot of the agencies that we worked with got like away from thinking like that.
Speaker: But it's funny because recently I feel like it's come back again.
Speaker: And with a lot more programs from the team, like the team was saying recently, how a lot more programs coming in are wanting to be like partially like affiliate, like basic, a lot of like more like commission-based deals coming back because the brands are kind of
Speaker: you know, taking that step backwards and just kind of looking at the sales conversion of that exact campaign.
Speaker: Yeah, or more like long-term deals because I tell my manager and, you know, my team, I say, listen, it's great to have trust to want to work with your AT&T, right?
Speaker: But once the deal is up and the campaign is done, it's done.
Speaker: Now that it's on to, it's like being an actor, right?
Speaker: Oh, what's next?
Speaker: When's the next commercial?
Speaker: So I'm into how can we be an ambassador role, right?
Speaker: Let's get a long-term commitment because it's like, what's the guy from Verizon?
Speaker: Can you hear me now?
Speaker: Psychologically, we remember him, right?
Speaker: Because he was always in our face, you know, like flow with progressive insurance.
Speaker: So when you have that IP and that type of talent that's consistent, then you make the customer wants to buy more from the brand.
Speaker: Because if I see a different person every time,
Speaker: I'm like, yeah, it's cool, but it really feels like a commercial and you're getting paid for it.
Speaker: But I want to, I want to change the subject just a bit because I was on a website and did some research.
Speaker: You guys are big on, is it body positivity or body confidence?
Speaker: And what is your take on mental health?
Speaker: Because I'm a big advocate for mental health.
Speaker: Yeah, so we use the term body confidence most commonly because we believe that the term body positivity is really a movement that was started by black, fat, marginalized bodies.
Speaker: And like that is a term and a phrase that like belongs to that community.
Speaker: So we body confidence we find and like there's a lot of new words coming in like body neutrality, body kindness, body confidence.
Speaker: I would say like loosely does it fall under the self-love category?
Speaker: Probably yes.
Speaker: Self-love, self-care.
Speaker: But this is a space that we love.
Speaker: We represent some like amazing content creators in this space.
Speaker: And it's so like, it's funny.
Speaker: I feel like, I don't know.
Speaker: I like walk around in life and on the internet with like rose colored glasses, but like, you know how people say they're like, oh, like, you know, Instagram and TikTok, it's like so damaging to your mental health.
Speaker: And obviously like no question it can be.
Speaker: But it's like, it's so interesting to me because it is so much within your control, like who you follow, right?
Speaker: So like, I find that myself, a lot of our team, obviously we follow our talent.
Speaker: So like we have these like cozy little corners of the internet where it's like so friendly and positive and loving and you like learn so much about like how your value is so far beyond like what number on a scale you see and that kind of thing that it kind of, you know, I find myself, I almost like forget that like there is a like,
Speaker: other things that exist on Instagram.
Speaker: What is the term body confidence?
Speaker: What does that actually mean?
Speaker: I mean, I know from my perspective, but I want to know from you guys' perspective, what does that actually mean, body confidence?
Speaker: I think where we fall with it is people who are exploring that their worth isn't attached to their size.
Speaker: Yeah, because I feel like
Speaker: Your word.
Speaker: Oh my God, put this on a website.
Speaker: Your word is not attached to your size or maybe you're picking out.
Speaker: We represent people who, you know, exist in like a big range of sizes who, you know, fall within that body confidence space and like exploring those conversations are like really, really amazing and like really important.
Speaker: So that's where our
Speaker: That's where we have found language that makes sense to us.
Speaker: And it's important.
Speaker: I was telling them, I had a few clients this morning, and I was telling them, I said, you know, your body loves you.
Speaker: And they chuckled.
Speaker: I'm like, no, your body loves you.
Speaker: Your body loves you unconditionally.
Speaker: Your body will take on anything you give it, good or bad.
Speaker: So the question is, did you love your body?
Speaker: Are you confident in your body?
Speaker: Because it starts with self, right?
Speaker: Self-love, self-care.
Speaker: So I always tell people, your body loves you.
Speaker: Your body will do whatever it says.
Speaker: It's like you're the adult and it's the child.
Speaker: The child is going to look up to the elder or the parent.
Speaker: And when we can come from body confidence and come from that perspective, we can have a more, we can live more in our bodies with more peace and grace and compassion and kindness and love no matter what's going on.
Speaker: I love my body and my body loves me.
Speaker: And I think language is important.
Speaker: That's why I was so curious about the term body confidence.
Speaker: So I love it.
Speaker: You got t-shirts?
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: You guys should have like a seminar on event, you know, put on by your talent group and have a panel discussion.
Speaker: I mean, get some brands involved, you know, by the way, we have that.
Speaker: That was a company that we launched a couple of years ago called the BodCon.
Speaker: So we already did it.
Speaker: We've done it.
Speaker: You've done it.
Speaker: Well, there you go.
Speaker: So for anyone who wants to be a part of Shine Talent Group, how does that work?
Speaker: Do you have to sign exclusively?
Speaker: Is it non-exclusive?
Speaker: How does it work if an influencer wants to be a part of your brand?
Speaker: Is it a vetted process?
Speaker: How do you take on clients?
Speaker: What do you look for?
Speaker: What happened?
Speaker: How does that work?
Speaker: Yeah, it's a process for sure.
Speaker: So to answer your first question, yes, all of our talent are exclusive to us, which basically just means if a brand reaches out to them directly, they flip it over to us and we then like start the conversation from there or continue the conversation.
Speaker: But we kind of have both sides.
Speaker: So we have a lot of talent reaching out to us.
Speaker: saying I really want to be represented by Shine.
Speaker: We go through like a pretty vigorous vetting process there, looking obviously at the numbers, like it's a part of it, not just not number of followers necessarily, but like what is your engagement rate?
Speaker: How many people are saving and sharing your content?
Speaker: How many people are viewing your stories?
Speaker: Who's engaging?
Speaker: That kind of thing.
Speaker: But then like, what's the style of content?
Speaker: Is there like a gap in our roster?
Speaker: We're like, oh, you know what?
Speaker: We don't have any like parenting skills.
Speaker: talent in like this specific region are we missing a category do we need I don't know so do we are we looking for more people who really talk about mental health are we looking for more people who talk about parenting or travel or beauty or whatever it is um so looking for potential like gaps in our roster or trends that we're seeing that we want to have talent for um and then of course looking at just like
Speaker: What is the style of content?
Speaker: Like, are you keeping up to date with trends?
Speaker: Like how, how much are you posting on TikTok?
Speaker: Are you on Be Real?
Speaker: Are you on this?
Speaker: Are you on that?
Speaker: Like how, like how are you navigating this space?
Speaker: Are you an early adopter of things?
Speaker: Or do you kind of sit back and wait?
Speaker: And then it's, you know, having conversations with, with our team and for every person, every talent on our roster that we bring on,
Speaker: we do depending on who they are a one to three month trial period to just see like are we the right fit on both sides like are we the right fit for you and are you the right fit for us like what is your communication style how are you at submitting content on time like how is this going to like where you know we're very cognizant of shine's reputation in the industry so like we want to be working with talent who
Speaker: can get their content in on time.
Speaker: And, and with that, like people who take this like really seriously, like we, we look at our talent as like you, every single one of you are entrepreneurs, you are building a brand, like how seriously do you take that?
Speaker: And it can be like very fun.
Speaker: Like you can have a lot of fun with it, but like, are you looking at this as like, this is my business, this is my livelihood because that's how we look at our talent and
Speaker: So we want them to kind of share that mentality for sure.
Speaker: So that's kind of like that trial period kind of like works out any kinks there if there are any.
Speaker: And from there we figure out like, do we like you?
Speaker: Do you like us?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Should we get married?
Speaker: Did we get married?
Speaker: Did we make this?
Speaker: Should we move in together?
Speaker: Are we great partners or are we just great friends, you know?
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: So how many people do you have on the team and talent total wise?
Speaker: Like in the hundreds, you just got 60, 70, like how many do you work with?
Speaker: Team members?
Speaker: I think we are around 60 full-time team members right now.
Speaker: And I say that loosely because it does like, it does shift.
Speaker: We've been growing.
Speaker: quite rapidly and in terms of talent we are at like 220 yeah like yeah I feel like I I say 200 give or take but I uh I feel like it's like our team now we kind of like go up in multiples of like five or ten now the talent I'm like I feel like I'll say 200 until we're at about 250 and then I'll say we're at 250 like it's
Speaker: Somewhere between 200 and 250.
Speaker: What I can say is that we were never, we never set out to be an agency who is going to represent everybody.
Speaker: We never tried to have the goal of saying, oh, you know, we represent 5,000 talent.
Speaker: Our goal was to take on people who really, we truly believed in and also like not to overload our talent management team.
Speaker: Like we've heard of other models with other agencies who maybe works for them for their goals, but
Speaker: talent managers who are repping like 20 to 30 like talent we don't do that yeah we don't do that at shine like talent managers they rep like 10 to 12 they generally have a coordinator with them it's like the ratio is like you know six to one like it's it's pretty it's pretty strong that way so that's something that we've set out to do so in terms of our growth on both the team member and the talent side it's like very like it's very deliberate
Speaker: And for your talent group as a whole, what do you say is the pros and what's the cons?
Speaker: Like what's working and what's like your greatest challenge right now overall?
Speaker: There's a lot that's working right now.
Speaker: So I'm like, we had, like COVID was an insane time for business.
Speaker: Like it really was.
Speaker: And I'm so proud of like just how it utilized like all of our
Speaker: our skills as founders as well.
Speaker: Cause like, like Jess and I have always been very, very good at looking at like challenging situations and like finding like the space that we could turn it into a positive for ourselves.
Speaker: And one thing that COVID did is we really invested time in our like training process, our online training process, because we couldn't train people in office the same way.
Speaker: And then that opened up the opportunity for us not just to be hiring people who live, you know, blocks away from our two offices, we could then expand our reach to find some other amazing employees in different states and different areas.
Speaker: And so I feel like that's the part that I can say over the past like little while has really been chugging along and working well.
Speaker: And then the ongoing training within our team as they progress throughout the company, like that's what's seeming to be allowing it to grow at the pace it is and so stably as well.
Speaker: And then things that aren't working, I don't know what they are.
Speaker: Well, we're expanding to a new market.
Speaker: There's always like, you know, things to work out with expansion.
Speaker: So I feel like we're working our way like through those right now, but there's nothing that's like,
Speaker: keeping me up at night right now.
Speaker: Like, I feel like it's all good things.
Speaker: Yeah, it could just be something minor, something subtle, like, oh, you know, trying to get our investors on this side to kind of agree.
Speaker: I don't know, you know, because I know me sometimes when people look at influencers and when you're creating content, they just think you just sit there and you take a photo.
Speaker: I might, I did a brand deal just on like a month ago.
Speaker: I probably took 300 photos, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Probably pick eight of those.
Speaker: No, they pick three of those photos.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: But people don't see that, right?
Speaker: You got to get a location.
Speaker: You got to get the outfit.
Speaker: You got to make sure you look presentable.
Speaker: The lighting is great.
Speaker: So basically what I want to give off in this discussion in this moment is that I don't want people to think what you guys do is easy because you have talent and you have brands.
Speaker: I think there was an interview called Fuck Up.
Speaker: Toronto or something like.
Speaker: And y'all was talking about billing and accounting and I think people don't know about those things.
Speaker: They just see, oh, you guys have a talent agency.
Speaker: You guys are doing great.
Speaker: And they don't see the mishapenings or the challenges or the rough spots or the things you have to deal with on a day to day basis.
Speaker: I always want to give people privy to like what goes on in a talent group, you know, as a CEO, as a founder, like you have to push back on or you have to fight for
Speaker: receiving payment on time, right?
Speaker: You might have influencers and you're still waiting for payment from the brand.
Speaker: Like they shot the content has been net 30, but they signed for net 60 and it's net 45 and you still haven't got no money yet.
Speaker: Like what's going on?
Speaker: Yeah, that's like so commonplace that like we don't even look at it as a challenge anymore.
Speaker: That's like just this industry.
Speaker: We could have our finance team on for like a whole episode on that.
Speaker: It wouldn't be very exciting there.
Speaker: But I think, you know, we've talked about this over the years and like,
Speaker: we do make it look easy and it's really hard.
Speaker: Like there's, you know, not that we're like keeping ourselves up at night as Em said, but there's so much that goes on behind the scenes.
Speaker: And I think for Emily and I, our roles over the last,
Speaker: Honestly, a year to two years, I want to say, have really shifted as we've kind of brought in our internal leadership team and really invested in like their training, their personal and professional development.
Speaker: That's been like a really powerful.
Speaker: big place that we've wanted to invest our time in and our finances in.
Speaker: So with that, it's changed what our roles are, you know, and the company has grown.
Speaker: So, you know, our managing director, Sam, for example, can take on like a lot of the stuff that we were taking on and we can focus on
Speaker: you know, the expansion to the UK, like other different types of acquisitions, other companies that we're launching, we can have kind of the time and space to focus on them.
Speaker: But we've always said like, we've made this look really easy.
Speaker: And I think we can say that because it has come to us with ease, but we've worked really, really hard to make that happen.
Speaker: Got it.
Speaker: And it's, you know, not only with ease, but, you know, just consistent effort and resiliency, right?
Speaker: So when you guys started to talk about or think about expanding the brand and the company, how does that start?
Speaker: Is it, did someone come to you guys and say, I think you guys should expand or you guys, this was a thought out conversation, like, I think it's time to jump.
Speaker: I think we had our ceiling.
Speaker: I think we need to go to the next level and dimension.
Speaker: How does that work and where did that start for you guys?
Speaker: I mean, you say UK, you got LA.
Speaker: How many people you got out here?
Speaker: Are they in office or is more like remotely workers that work for Chantelle and Grip?
Speaker: How does that work in different locations?
Speaker: There's team members who live locally in LA, where our office is.
Speaker: But there's also team members throughout the states now.
Speaker: So it's like, yeah.
Speaker: And the US team,
Speaker: employee count wise, like talent manager count wise is bigger than the Canadian team now.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: More money in the States than they do in Canada.
Speaker: What's going on?
Speaker: There's more content creators, there's more brands, there's more dollars.
Speaker: And yeah, our US team and the Canadian, like both teams are amazing and they work very collaboratively together.
Speaker: Like we're seeing a lot more in terms of trends now of brands wanting to execute across multiple markets, which is,
Speaker: you know, certainly part of the reason for opening the UK office.
Speaker: We believe that a lot of brands that will be able to do business within the UK will be looking to expand into North America as well and vice versa.
Speaker: So really opening up a lot of opportunity is the plan for our talent to do more international global campaigns.
Speaker: And for someone who wants to be in a position of owner of a talent agency, influencer agency, what would be advice or inspiration you would give them before starting?
Speaker: Because you've done it.
Speaker: I mean, eight years in the game.
Speaker: I think what you were saying at the beginning of the interview kind of rings true when it comes to relationships and network.
Speaker: Because I think that's something that
Speaker: like at the beginning when we started Shine, we would take meetings with like absolutely anybody who would take a meeting with us.
Speaker: And it's not that we thought that we were going into every single meeting and we were gonna get, you know, a job, a contract at a bad exact meeting, but we believed in like the power of network and by people like hearing about us and like hearing what we were trying to do and like how that would come like back around.
Speaker: And we still do that like today, like not at like the same intensity that we had to at the very beginning.
Speaker: But I think that anybody who is wanting to start anything, whether it be in the influencer talent management space or otherwise, like you have to like invest time
Speaker: and going out there and meeting with people and not trying to like premeditate that there's gonna be like a cash job at the end of that, you know, coffee date.
Speaker: Like, it's just about like getting out there and like sharing like what you're doing and, you know, also hearing what is like helpful to other people.
Speaker: We had so many meetings, it helped us like hear patterns and shape what was gonna be effective messaging when we entered in the market as Shine influencers originally.
Speaker: We wouldn't have gotten that unless we had the volume of meetings and chats and just trying to put ourselves out there to gather up the information.
Speaker: So basically it sounds like building rapport and just getting in the mix and building and talking to people, networking and seeing where you can help and add value and not from, if I give this, can I get that?
Speaker: You know, I think, like I said, it looks easy, but people don't understand it takes work.
Speaker: It takes effort.
Speaker: It takes time.
Speaker: It takes energy.
Speaker: And also it takes faith when you're believing in what you're doing and having a great partner like you and Jess have together and trusting one another and scaling the brands and business and talent.
Speaker: Before we get off here, what do you want people to get from Sean Talent Group and what's next for you to like, of course you've expanded but big picture, how do you see Sean Talent Group?
Speaker: Do you see it like a CAA or William Morrison?
Speaker: Like how, what is your idea for what's next and what do you want people to take from you guys at the agency?
Speaker: In terms of what's next, as we've talked about, there's the UK expansion and there's also a little tech
Speaker: venture that we have coming up.
Speaker: I'm like, is that the right way to say it?
Speaker: I'll say that for now.
Speaker: So that's something that we've been working on in our heads for like three years and in reality for about a year and a half.
Speaker: So we have something that we're building that we're very excited to not just use internally, but to like bring to the industry.
Speaker: So that's something that we're very, very, very excited about and we'll be putting a lot of energy behind.
Speaker: And yeah, I think, you know, we will continue as we always have been to be focused on, you know, the professional growth and personal growth of our team and focusing on the culture at Shine and making sure that with our growth that never dissipates and it stays really, really strong.
Speaker: Yeah, there we are.
Speaker: And my focus is.
Speaker: Yeah, I think like somebody else asked me recently about like a comparative to CAA.
Speaker: And like, I love that thought that we, that Shine could grow to that level, you know, to be at the point that we are able to operate in so many different areas and we're able to use like the skills that we have in talent management and like translate that into different like categories as well.
Speaker: And I hope, my hope with that is that
Speaker: it's always preserved in terms of like people that coming into the company and knowing that they can do business in a kind collaborative way.
Speaker: And I think that it's something we started out to do in the beginning and it would be such like a point of pride to see us like reach even like beyond the CAI level, but always have that being known within our reputation.
Speaker: It would be amazing.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: And, you know, before our closing remarks, I just want to say thank you to for being here today, being transparent, being authentic, sharing your ups, your downs, your wins, your losses, just everything within Shine Talent Group.
Speaker: But I would like to say, you know, moving forward, where can we find you?
Speaker: How can we get in Instagram, social media?
Speaker: What's the handle?
Speaker: Can you let people know?
Speaker: By the way, I had an epiphany.
Speaker: I see you writing a book together.
Speaker: I just so see that.
Speaker: Like literally, you know, information changes situations.
Speaker: And I just feel like you have the IP and the wisdom to help people not only scale their company, but their image and their brand with the background of PR in eight years at Shantown Group.
Speaker: So I don't know if that's a thing that's written down on someone's vision board, but book.
Speaker: I see many panel discussions talking about what it takes and what it's like to be in this position.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Well, if it's not on the vision board, it will be added now.
Speaker: But it goes without saying that people can find us on Instagram and TikTok and all the social places.
Speaker: So at Shine Talent Group and website is shinetalentgroup.com.
Speaker: Easy peasy.
Speaker: Easy peasy believe.
Speaker: This was nice.
Speaker: This was fun.
Speaker: Ladies, thank you.
Speaker: Anything else you ladies want to say?
Speaker: Give us some inspiration.
Speaker: Give us some motivation.
Speaker: Whatever comes to mind.
Speaker: Just give it to us.
Speaker: Whatever comes up.
Speaker: I thought you were going to go.
Speaker: I like I will, you know, we've talked a lot about relationships and at the end here about advice for people going into business.
Speaker: And I think this is something that fits for any kind of business or venture that you want to start is that, you know, never be afraid to like ask people for what you want and to ask people for, you know,
Speaker: advice.
Speaker: Like it's like, I can say like the number of people I give advice to is a ton.
Speaker: And I always say like, text me anytime, like I'll send you back a voice note and I'll give, I'll like give you my opinion on anything.
Speaker: But I think that like you and I, I will always have the time for people who do that because I'm like, it takes a little bit of balls to like reach out to someone who you maybe don't know very well.
Speaker: um and and ask for advice or some some feedback or guidance um but I think you'll find more often than not like people are willing to do that if you're willing to ask um so I that would be my my advice is like always always ask for that guidance or advice that's a good one I was gonna say like don't be afraid to try things like
Speaker: We have talked today about all the things that have gone well and had success with the company, but like Jess and I have tried so many different things along the way that like never got off the ground because we, you know, tried it, you know, played it out, got it to a certain point and like recognized it wasn't going to fly.
Speaker: So we dropped it.
Speaker: But the things that have worked for us is because like we're constantly moving and we're constantly trying to make something new work.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: You hear that people listen don't be afraid to ask help try take a shot you know they say you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
Speaker: You might hit the right one you know and they say it's not the home runs that win the game it's the small ball sometimes we just got to get on base right so yeah talent group ladies thank you you were amazing and phenomenal at the same time and um
Speaker: We'll see you soon in the ether and the universe, social media and all the things.
Speaker: And we're looking for that book that should be coming soon.
Speaker: Well, thank you for having us.
Speaker: This was so fun.
Speaker: We love chatting.
Speaker: You're welcome.
