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184. Grief, Identity, and Transition: Insights for Athletes and High Performers with Dr. Natasha P. Trujillo
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Dr. Natasha P. Trujillo has a firm grasp on the complexities of grief and loss, both in her academic studies and personal experiences. In her forthcoming book, And She Was Never the Same Again, she challenges the idea of a "right" way to grieve, advocating against the pathologization and over-medication of grief. Drawing from her experiences, Dr. Trujillo emphasizes that grief is a deeply personal and natural process that should be embraced rather than suppressed.
Having immersed herself in the theories, concepts and research surrounding grief and loss, Dr. Trujillo has not only studied but also lived and integrated these principles into both her personal and professional life. Her journey has been a testament to the transformative power of understanding and navigating grief, a revelation that resonates deeply with those who encounter her work.
Currently practicing in Denver, Colorado, Dr. Trujillo specializes in addressing a myriad of issues including grief, loss, eating disorders, trauma, life transitions, identity development, anxiety/depressive disorders, perfectionism, and performance psychology. Her expertise extends to working with athletes and performers across the nation, both individually and within team settings. Dr. Trujillo's holistic approach to healing and her unwavering dedication to her clients make her a beacon of hope and resilience in the field of mental health.
To contact Kendra Rinaldi for more information or to be a guest on the podcast https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
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Transcript
Embracing Life's Duality
00:00:01
Speaker
When we accept the duality of life, we can't love without loss. We can't be happy without knowing what it's like to be sad, ah right? We can't grieve without gratitude, all of these different pieces ah that seem like polar opposites. I think that acceptance acceptance and not avoiding it allows us to live more authentically and to know who we are on a deeper level because we see the whole picture. We see both sides.
Navigating Grief in Transitions
00:00:42
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:00:58
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar
00:01:20
Speaker
Today on the podcast, I have
Dr. Natasha Trujillo's Grief Journey
00:01:23
Speaker
Dr. Natasha Trujillo. She is a counseling and sports psychologist she primarily focuses on grief, loss, eating disorders, trauma, and life transitions, and identifying anxiety and depression disorders, perfectionism, and performance psychology. And we will be talking about her new book, and she was never the same again is the title of her book. And it is a collection of stories of her family's journey through grief and life,
00:01:59
Speaker
and then just how it impacted all the family dynamics. So welcome, Dr. Trujillo, or I'll call you Natasha for the purposes of the podcast. Welcome. That sounds great. Hello, welcome. Thank you for having me. I am glad you are here. So Natasha, I like to start off with just sharing a little bit about your upbringing. Where do you currently live and where did you grow up?
Family and Geographic Roots
00:02:25
Speaker
Sure. I currently live in Denver, Colorado.
00:02:28
Speaker
And I grew up in Laramie, Wyoming. So my family's kind of up and down I-25. They come from the San Luis Valley down in southern Colorado. ah But I grew up in Laramie, Wyoming. So I kind of call that whole corridor home. All of it home. All of it home. And everybody's spread out.
00:02:47
Speaker
throughout the United States a bit or mainly stayed in that area. I know your uncle had lived. Yeah. One of your uncles had lived in California for a while, but I don't know if he's still there, but it's ever mainly in that area. Yeah. Pretty much all of my immediate family is still in Wyoming. And then I've got a fair amount in Colorado. I've got some in New Mexico, and then a couple sprinkled in Nevada and California, but it's primarily Wyoming and Colorado.
00:03:14
Speaker
That's cool. Thank you for sharing that. Now I want to find out like, is this your first book?
Writing as Healing
00:03:20
Speaker
Is this your first book? It is, yes. Now, what drew you? Of course, you are in this field. You help people in your in your profession with grief and loss. And there has been a lot in your own family, particularly even just even you being born is i a little miracle in itself, ah a big miracle in itself. But what drew you to wanting at this moment in time, share your story in a book, in a fashion
00:03:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good question because I'm actually quite a reserved and private person. So the book is by far the most vulnerable I think I've ever been in my life. And the book came about because I was in a place where I i was grieving two very significant, probably the two biggest losses I've ever been through, ah very close together. And I was just I was struggling. right I was still functioning. I was still going to work, but was just not doing well. I was not taking care of myself. Just couldn't seem to focus you know really in that cognitive fog that accompanies grief. and so I kind of thought through like what what is going on? What are some of the experiences in my life and in my family's life? you know what Why can't I kind of dig myself out right now? and that That's what really started the whole process of writing the book.
00:04:42
Speaker
So was it was a tool for your own healing that drew you to even wanting to write it, yes? Yes, and since I specialize in grief and loss, I think there was truly was some extra shame, both guilt and shame, because it was like, why can't I dig myself out of this? And of course, you know i would never that the way that I was talking to myself, is never I would never let a patient of mine get away with doing that.
00:05:09
Speaker
And so that was another piece where it was like, I think I just need to pull, I couldn't intellectualize myself out of it. And so writing for me became this way of I didn't need to rely on other people. I could still use my own ideas, my own education, my own knowledge, but really weave in the emotions in a way that I felt more comfortable doing than I did speaking to anyone else.
Family Reactions and Secrets
00:05:34
Speaker
Now, in that process, to be able to gather the information that you use in the book, that because it's it's a family, it's a family, collective family memoir, biography, slash,
00:05:49
Speaker
grief manual without it being straight, you know, to the point like this is how you should grieve. It is very much like within these stories, you see how each of the characters grieve and how unique it is. So how was it for you approaching your family in that if you're, if you're more reserved is that, you know, in general, your family members are also reserved, correct?
00:06:18
Speaker
For the most part, yeah, we have a few who are a little more open. But yeah, I mean, I asked really difficult questions, ah you know, and and I asked my family members to sit down with me and talk through some of the biggest secrets in the family, some of the most traumatic um and and devastating experiences they had been through. And that was really challenging. You know, you it was palpable. You could almost feel the discomfort, but also the connection when I was sitting in the same room and and recording these interviews and asking questions, most of which I think i I knew the information at least surface level because I am who I am. So I've always been inquisitive and curious and asking questions and you know building deep connections, that sort of thing. But there were definitely pieces that I had absolutely no idea about. And you know those were, again, palpable. It was so interesting for me to sit with my own emotions and experiences and
00:07:17
Speaker
make connections and put things together that prior to I just, I hadn't been able to do up to that point. Now with with those stories and that sharing, did you end up realizing, like as you're hearing everyone's stories of the patterns that might've been already been in your family, they're like, okay, now that makes so much sense.
Unveiling Family Patterns
00:07:44
Speaker
this is why I am this way or this is why my dad is this way. This is why my mom was this way or my brother and my dad's relationship. like were Were those stories like aha moments or as you said, it was certain things that you already knew? For me, there were certain things that I already knew. um And again, doing the work of ah or being a psychologist for for several years at this point,
00:08:12
Speaker
I've kind of looked at my family before, right? So I kind of came to it with more understanding, but it's also been really interesting to see some of my family's reception to reading the book and to hearing the stories who had no idea. And so it's been really cool. Like, of course, yes, I had some aha moments myself, but it's been really interesting to provide these narratives for my family to have aha moments. Even my younger cousins, I've had a couple younger cousins in the generation after me who have read the book and they're like, yeah, you know, we we don't know. We didn't know.
00:08:49
Speaker
our great grandma Claire, or we don't really remember Andorra. So, you know, you being able to bring them to life, it it makes sense. Who's still living, who reminds them of these women or that sort of thing. So it was really cool to see some of those aha moments for other people as well.
00:09:07
Speaker
Now, since you mentioned your great grandma, Claire, let's talk about her because she would, attending her funeral was the first time you ever went to a funeral.
First Funeral and Cultural Losses
00:09:15
Speaker
You were 10 years old, you go to her funeral and there's something within her cause she, in terms of your family background and your Spanish heritage, she was that person that held this, this ah connection to your cultural, your, your Spanish culture. So.
00:09:37
Speaker
let ah go into first off your experience as a 10 year old witnessing your being in a funeral for the first time. And then we'll go into this cultural component and secondary losses that came from that.
00:09:50
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. So I was 10 years old. My great grandfather had died a few years before, but I didn't attend that funeral and I just didn't, i I was younger. I just didn't really get it. And a little back piece here, the stories that I chose to write for the book, I tried to pick events that had the most impact on me. And so My grandma Claire and her chapter is included because that funeral vivid memory still to this day. And recognizing the changes that my family underwent starting then made this a very impactful and relevant experience to bring to the book. So that that's how it made it in. ah But yeah, I was 10 and I remember so so much shock.
00:10:33
Speaker
I think it's a great word for it, at seeing the men in my family show any emotion at all. ah Because in in ah in a big Mexican family, you know there's absolutely that machismo and these rules and expectations about what it means to be a man. and so There was shock in seeing that. There was shock in seeing so many of of my aunties and my grandma and some of the women in my family who I typically viewed as very strong and even scary sometimes frankly ah fall apart.
00:11:07
Speaker
and show emotion and I remember walking down the aisle you know because the immediate family all kind of ushers in and you're just on display it is such a bizarre experience everyone's turned and staring at you and everyone's crying and I just remember being like what are we what are we doing what is the this is so surreal um and so there were so many moments of that where I think I I was getting it, right? I knew my grandma had died and I guess I kind of knew what death meant, but seeing the grief and the sorrow and knowing that no one was really able to take away anybody else's pain, I think I was just overwhelmed with some of the experiences there and it has stuck with me. And to be frank, it made me quite fascinated with death and dying and culture and how we honor and memorialize our dead and
00:12:00
Speaker
it contributed to why I specialize in this. Why you do what you do. yeah the I believe was it in that chapter that you talked about the personalization of grief, like how different each person also shows that grief, I don't remember, but it was the aspect of the explosiveness that some of them take it more the silent aspect. I'm not sure if again, if it was that, but let's, you mentioned right now, again, it was the first time you were seeing some of these expressions. So in that part of it being so personal and so unique to the individual, can you touch on that? And then we'll go back again to the other question I had done in my long question about the cultural and secondary losses.
Grief's Personal Expressions
00:12:48
Speaker
Of course, yes. So that that piece of the book is in my Aunt Doris chapter. oh okay okay And that was another piece where, and I probably started that younger in life, but I think I was 20 when my aunt Dora died and I was a caretaker for her. I was very involved in her life and in her death. So again, very impactful in that way. And my aunt Dora became the matriarch when my grandma Claire died. So that was kind of the continuation there. Yes, I just make this point.
00:13:21
Speaker
And this is a huge theme throughout the book is that there is no one way to grieve and we all do it so differently. And so I kind of point out, you know, there are some family members who who were angry and explosive and just just really struggled to manage their emotions. There were some who became so withdrawn and so isolated and and so lonely and to themselves.
00:13:45
Speaker
There were some who just cried constantly and wanted to talk about it all the time. right And so when you're seeing all of these expressions, especially as a child or young adult, and no one's really talking about it, there are still these indirect norms or expectations about what what the right way is or what you should or should not be doing. And i I just find that fascinating. And that was something I really wanted to highlight because there is no right or wrong.
00:14:10
Speaker
You have to recognize that you have your own needs and how you're going to deal with things and everyone else's might be a little bit different, but but those needs can be competing. And so that can make it tense in a big family when you've got some people who want to do nothing but talk about it. Some people who are like, please get away from me. I don't i don't want anything to do with this. And some who are just ah unapproachable, unreachable in general, right? How do you still become a collective and stay united and work through the collective greed when there's so many individual experiences going on?
00:14:41
Speaker
As you're saying that, it just even makes me think of the aspect of even love languages, right?
Individual Grief Processes
00:14:46
Speaker
Like how each of us has a different way of even showing yeah love or receiving love in the same way, grief and how we express it and how we want to process it is so different. and And honoring that within the family and even just with your friends, it's just not much different than the fact of how we honor and try to understand how people love and show love and receive love, right? It's similar in that way. Yes. Yes. And the message I wanted to send or the way that I wanted to illustrate that was that all of those expressions are okay. You know, we need to meet people where they are and understand, okay, this is what you need. This is what you're doing. Even if I don't understand it or maybe I don't even agree with it.
00:15:35
Speaker
ah I got to give you your space and you've got to give me mine, but somehow we do have to figure out how to connect and come together too, which is obviously much easier stuff than done.
00:15:50
Speaker
The way that that we grieve and trying to be compassionate towards others and towards ourselves, you even mentioned that even you were being a little even judgmental with yourself and your own more most recent grief experiences of like, but I should know how to do this. I should know how to do, you know, I help others doing this. So the compassion, the grace that we have to have with ourselves is not much different than the grace we give others and their grief.
00:16:23
Speaker
And so, yeah, that is very, very valuable. yeah I don't want to forget, the because I
Cultural Impact of Loss
00:16:28
Speaker
had asked it before and I don't want to forget, let's talk about that secondary loss that your family experienced after your great-grandma passed away regarding the cultural part of your heritage also, quote-unquote, dying alongside with her.
00:16:48
Speaker
Yes, so this is also a big theme in the book that I tried to bring to life. And this is not just for death losses, this is for non-death losses as well. But when you know often you have your primary loss, right? What is the big thing? So a death in the family, you lose your job, you retire from sport, ah whatever that initial loss may be. There are secondary losses or cumulative losses is another way that we describe it in the literature, which is all these other things that are kind of indirectly and ah sometimes expected, sometimes not expected, but other ways that we grieve or lose things as a result of that primary loss. So as it relates to my family and to my culture, and I have noticed this, I think it really started with my great grandma when she died, but it has continued as I've had aunts and uncles die and that sort of thing. My great grandma, she grew up, like I said, down in the San Luis Valley,
00:17:44
Speaker
very strong ah Mexican family values, right? ah Spanish was her first language. that That area of the country is predominantly Hispanic in nature. So she was not necessarily considered a minority in that part of the country. And so when they moved to Wyoming, the ah culture and and that Mexican heritage, that is what she brought is is what my grandma and her 10 siblings got.
00:18:12
Speaker
And they kept up with the Spanish. Spanish was my grandma's first language as well and a lot of the the cultural traditions. But when she died, I noticed those things stopped. Spanish, she spoke English. It was pretty broken, but she spoke English so she could speak to, you know, my generation, for example.
00:18:35
Speaker
And I, but I noticed my grandma and her sisters, you know, when I was younger, every breakfast, my grandma babysat us ah a few days a week and we'd always go over to one of her sister's houses. And she's one of seven girls, 11 kids total. And so they'd all, it just vanished. That's what I heard. And after she died, I wasn't hearing that anymore. And our get togethers, those changed for holidays. We'd all get together in my grandma Claire's house or as we got bigger, we'd have to rent a space because there's just so many of us.
00:19:04
Speaker
And those sorts of events became more infrequent and in some cases today have stopped altogether. And I speak to the secondary losses involved in that for for me, for example, I'm not fluent in Spanish and that breaks my heart. Some of that culture is gone.
00:19:24
Speaker
Even the family values or the idea of being together and making sure holidays are a priority, that really has been lost over time. So, you know, like my generation, people and my cousins who have had kids, that sort of thing.
00:19:38
Speaker
their kids have a completely different understanding of family and of cultural values. And I see grief in that. I see loss in that. And when I speak to my older relatives about some of those changes, I see even more grief in them because that was even more ingrained in them than it is in me. And so we see all of these conflicting grief processes that just continue to evolve over time. And I really wanted to bring light to that.
00:20:07
Speaker
and it And it's so important to understand that secondary losses can sometimes, or at least for what I've seen and experienced myself, sometimes these secondary losses can kind of suck you in even more than the actual primary loss.
Identity Loss Beyond Grief
00:20:24
Speaker
And this is just in general, correct? Like there's times in which these secondary losses end up inflicting more turmoil within us than the primary loss. Can you ah give an example in your job because you have, you see athletes and I'm actually, out I'm curious of how you ended up choosing this type of psychology and in the aspect of grief within that. But let's say somebody that's retiring from the sport and how grief may impact them. And then the secondary, that could you give an example of how that might show up?
00:21:03
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, there's a whole chapter in the book about athletes. I was an athlete. I work primarily with athletes. And one of the biggest examples, I think, to answer your question would be in the sense of retirement, Kate. So that primary loss is going to be your your job for the pro-Olympic, Paralympic athletes that I work with, or even college athletes.
00:21:28
Speaker
when they retire, the main loss is the game, the sport, whatever it is they do. An example of the secondary piece is the communities that they are a part of. That transition can be super challenging for college athletes who Always have meals taken care of. Travel is coordinated for them. They know exactly what they need to eat. They know exactly when and what they need to do for their exercise. When you retire, no one's doing any of that for you anymore. So there are losses in your schedule. What do you do with your free time? How do you manage some of those things?
00:22:09
Speaker
Identity, that's another example of a secondary loss. A lot of athletes, particularly at that elite level, their sport is the main part of their identity for better or worth. And sometimes their worth is connected to their achievement in their sport. And so when they retire, their identity undergoes significant loss because it's like, who am I without the sport? What else do I even like to do? When you're spending all of your time being poured into training for your sport, you don't even know.
00:22:38
Speaker
what you like to do. And that was something I tried to highlight in my own experience ah when it the the chapter focuses on my experience as an athlete. ah but But that was a huge piece for me. I had no idea what I liked to do because I never had free time prior to retiring from basketball. So when I stopped, it was like, I just don't i just don't know. And other people don't know either. So you also have losses from a relationship perspective.
00:23:07
Speaker
People didn't know what to ask me about. For my whole life, they had been like, hi, how's school? How's basketball? And you could see them almost trip over their words where they were like, how's that? And they back up. But they were like, yeah, we don't know what else to ask you about. And I was like, yeah, I don't either because this is my identity. So I guess I better find some new hobbies. So and identity is such a big one. I i realized that the first time like I really grasped on the grief regarding identity, and at least for me, was when I became a mom of me really missing and like, not like I was really sad and it was not postpartum. It was this aspect of this like, where am I? I was really still searching for the parts of me that I could not see now as this role of mother. I was grieving.
00:24:05
Speaker
her and you you know, leaving the part of me that was before and then having to try to find ways of incorporating that slightly into my current life. But it it it draws in the question of like really then when you're going through these questions for ourselves or even with your patients, then how do you deep dig deeper into really who are we without the labels that supposedly define us or we think define us and that society and our family define us so that when these labels are no longer there, whether it is from grief, let's say somebody becomes loses a spouse, they're a widow.
00:24:54
Speaker
They're a widow, right? So they're no longer, ah with someone, right? So that's an identity part part. So can you talk about that? Like how do we, is there a way that we can kind of either do journal or something to really dig deeper into who are we without the titles? So great. Yeah. ah two Two thoughts come to mind. One is the importance of values, right? So what is actually important to you and what provides a sense of
00:25:27
Speaker
a meaningful life, a purposeful life, a wholehearted life. So I think that's one direction that I often go when I'm working with people clinically. i also think You said something that made me think of another big theme in the book, which is looking at every life event, whether it's desirable or undesirable from a gains and losses perspective.
Understanding Life's Duality
00:25:53
Speaker
Because I think when we accept the duality in life, so I guess this is another answer to your question, this idea of acceptance. When we accept the duality of life, we can't love without loss. We can't be happy without knowing what it's like to be sad.
00:26:09
Speaker
ah right We can't grieve without gratitude all of these different pieces ah that seem like polar opposites. I think that acceptance acceptance and not avoiding it allows us to live more authentically and to know who we are on a deeper level because we see the whole picture. We see both sides. So your point is so beautiful.
00:26:31
Speaker
as far as becoming a mom. I actually talk about this a lot with my own patients because many who are new moms are terrified. There's so much social constraint to talk to other people and say, actually, this is hard and I am losing things and there's part of me that misses my life before. And I'm not saying I don't want my child, but this is really hard and I'm grieving certain things. And so that is a space with me where my clients can really open up and dig into that and talk about that. And it just speaks to, you know for the most part, having a baby is a very desirable event and under most circumstances, but there are still undesirable outcomes. There is still grief and loss. And on the flip side, even the most undesirable events, ah a career ending injury as an athlete, a death in the family, ah losing your job, even outside the athletic sphere, things like that,
00:27:27
Speaker
There are still things to be gained and ways that you grow, maybe not right away. And I wouldn't bring that up to someone right in the throes of a lot. I completely agree. I completely agree. You don't say, well, at least. No. At least. At least. And still, right? Those two words are like bad words when it comes to grief. But ah yeah, over time, we see these ways in which growth and improvement and change and perspective benefit our life. Agreed, completely. Hence my the title of my podcast you know because it is that, it really does. and it And it is not to take away, as we said from that moment, just like we were saying that comparison of me being
00:28:18
Speaker
Becoming a mom, grieving who I was did not take away the fact that I loved it. The same thing goes. You're grieving. You can still be grateful for certain things in your life without it meaning that you are you know not and like, not it's not like that toxic positivity or whatever thing of, you know, that's not what it is about. It's you're wanting to hold these emotions and feelings in the same space.
00:28:46
Speaker
as well. Yeah, it's a both and instead of an either or and that was a huge reason why I wanted the book title to include the word and that is symbolic to me that really speaks to you know you have this loss and there will be there will be gains there will be losses and that is just so ah important and that's a clinical idea that I use with my own clients all the time.
Normalizing Grief Discussions
00:29:13
Speaker
Now let's talk about the stigma we of grief and talking about grief as well as death or difficulties. or but and because we even just You mentioned how when some of your clients may come with this ah turmoil of whatever it is they're feeling that they don't feel they can share then with others. Can you focus a little on that? Yes.
00:29:41
Speaker
ah Another huge reason why I wanted to write the book is to help people understand that, of course, we grieve death losses, but we grieve so many other things. Anytime we lose something important or of significance to us, we there's there's also a grief process there.
00:29:57
Speaker
And so that was something I really wanted to draw out and make quite clear. So regardless of the topic, that was is something that I wanted to come back to and give people perspective. And so when I'm working clinically, for example, ah I specialize in eating disorders, I specialize in trauma so and performance psychology.
00:30:19
Speaker
Working with those sorts of issues when setbacks occur or when challenges occur, I'm thinking about injuries or you lose a big game, right? We're getting ready for the Olympics right now. I have several athletes that I work with getting ready to do their trials, ah you know, coming up soon. Not all of them are going to leave victorious. And so when I'm working with them, I will bring up grief. I will bring up this concept. I will name it.
00:30:48
Speaker
And I get really interesting reactions. Sometimes people are like, oh, that's that's too strong. I don't think I'm grieving because nobody died, right? That seems too much. Or I'll have people where you can see the weight fall off their shoulders, where it's like, yes, that is it. And so to the point with stigma, I think there's so many expectations and false definitions of what we can grieve and what we can't grieve.
00:31:17
Speaker
But I have found it's just so powerful to bring it up and name it and call it what it is because it gives people this better foundation to understand what they are going through and to look at it through that sort of lens. So I think that in and of itself is a strategy to kind of break through that stigma. From a death perspective, I think we live in a very death anxious culture.
00:31:42
Speaker
Right. I find it so fascinating that when we're really tired, we can say, Oh, I'm so dead. But when somebody dies, we say and we've lost them or they passed away. And I'm like, uh,
00:31:55
Speaker
Right? So there's a lot of death anxiety going on. And I think that furthers some of the stigma. People don't know what to say. They don't know how to be helpful, which is another huge theme I bring into the book is that you don't you don't have to know what to say. There is no right thing to say. There is no one thing that's going to take somebody's pain away in that moment. It's really about being with them and being alongside them.
00:32:23
Speaker
Rather than doing something for them because with really significant laws, it's not gonna go away Nothing you do is gonna make it go away Sure, it might be helpful if you bring over dinner or run an errand or that sort of thing, but it is not going to alleviate that suffering for that person. And that's not the goal. There's nothing to fix. Yeah, there's nothing to fix, right? And we live in a society in general that we are trying to fix, especially when things make us uncomfortable. We want to fix them because they make us feel unsettled. So when someone comes and they tell you things to try to make you feel
00:33:00
Speaker
better or fix how you're feeling, it isn't really about you and them. They're trying to kind of allvi alleviate their own anxiety that your expression of grief and your sadness is creating in them. Yes. Well, I think that's part of the stigma, right? Is that this grief is some problem that needs to be taken away or fixed right as you said or solved and it's like no that's it's very natural and normal and appropriate and yes it's uncomfortable and conflicted and messy but it is live.
00:33:35
Speaker
And yeah, and life is complex. So let's go back again into your book.
Family Trauma and Dynamics
00:33:41
Speaker
So you told us why it is you started then to write it. You then went into this history. your own i don't Again, your own birth was a miracle. Your mom almost Lost you, correct? Lost you. She almost died. Well, both, I guess. Yes, both, yeah. She almost died and then a couple years later, I almost died. Yes, oh that' that's right. Oh, there it is. That's my part. so Because her own first experience of of of pregnancy then with you was a second, right? Is that correct? She had the ham hemorrhage was the first pregnancy? Is that correct? She had a miscarriage before me. Yes.
00:34:20
Speaker
hemorrhaged after she had me and then I had a flight for life when I was two and a half. And those were all, so how even carrying you was had this grief within it, which i can I could relate with that aspect with her because my first pregnancy was a miscarriage. And so then the the anxiety then in pregnancy throughout my second and then my third pregnancy was you know there. So when we talk about how things even shape our current you know current life experience, like in your case your for your mom's case for you, we again, we don't know what people are bringing into
00:35:12
Speaker
their present that comes from their past and how that affects how affects that you know the future can we can you talk a little more about that and it doesn't have to be particularly with your mom but in this idea of understanding these human interactions yeah absolutely so I thought these dynamics were so important to bring into the book. I've always seen my mom as a fairly anxious soul. I love her dearly, but she worries so much and it's all the time and I feel like it's quite unnecessary most of the time. And again, there were some pieces of this that I knew prior to and and some that I didn't. So yeah, my my mom's journey has not been easy and
00:35:58
Speaker
So growing up, just getting so frustrated. she She always wanted to know where I was and right, just so involved, which now I'm thankful for. But at the time as a teenager, I was like, just get away from me. I'm fine.
00:36:11
Speaker
But now understanding that context, it was so important, right? And even though i was I was alive for her hemorrhage, but I was two weeks old. I don't remember anything from that. It was a terribly traumatic event. My mom was 20 years old. My dad was 21. She almost lost her life. My dad thought she was dead, right? She lost more than 50% of the blood and in her body. And then just two years later,
00:36:35
Speaker
I was born healthy, fine, but had a flight for life, was in full respiratory failure. The doctors came in and told my parents that I was not going to live. My mom was six months pregnant at the time of my flight for life. And my brother, we didn't know this at the time, but she was pregnant with twins. When she delivered my brother,
00:36:57
Speaker
There were two placentas, but but one child. So we think she even miscarried there. So when you think about all of the grief and all of the loss and all of the anxiety, of course that's worry. Those are terrifying experiences. She's 20, 23 years old when these things happen, that's going to breed a fierce level of protectiveness and of worry, right? Death anxiety. She was so concerned about something happening to our family. So as a teenager and even as an adult, even now sometimes I'm like, mom, you gotta give me some space here. But I needed to understand that background for her because it makes me cope with some of that a little bit better understanding. Yes, this is why she is the way she is. That doesn't mean she can't work on it.
00:37:44
Speaker
Which of course, you know, I throw in as much as I can to her, but it's just so imperative to understand like, yeah, yeah, I get it. And it allows me to give her more grace and for our relationship to, two <unk>s it's better. It's better as a result of that. and it's And it's interesting because even then aspects of sometimes our personality can be affected by the upbringing that we have. So the tendency of perfectionism, for example, right, or certain things of outcome that you might have in certain right in certain parts of your life and that you had within yourself could have been kind of triggered per se because of your upbringing as well.
Personality and Relationships
00:38:26
Speaker
Sure. When I speak to that, even in my parents as well, you know those events that my parents went through as very young newlyweds, truly children themselves, right? They were married at 18 and 19, had me at 20.
00:38:40
Speaker
the way that my mom has, has become more anxious, that really is part of her personality. She worries a lot. And my dad kind of became this protective, I have to produce, I have to provide, because we got a lot of medical expenses. You know, there's a lot. And so you can see that work ethic and that I always have to do more and make sure we have this Extra layer of protection you can see even how they show up today where that sort of came from and in myself I could I don't know that I could articulate this as a kid, but I obviously knew that my mom worried a lot and
00:39:19
Speaker
I knew that my dad worked a lot and i I was fine. I wanted to make sure they knew that I was fine and they didn't need to worry or I could take care of myself and that sort of thing. So I don't think I was putting that together as a child, but I think I was very much developing those skills that very much stick with me today. I'm fiercely independent. I'm fine is probably the way I answer most questions, even when that's not the case. So it was very helpful for me and for, yes, my own perfectionism and sense of control and and that sort of thing. Yeah, it's all connected.
00:39:53
Speaker
And it's not to like try to like put blame on anything when these things show up that we know we are. It's just to try to understand. Because again, even just our own actions, as even just myself as a parent, are going to have an impact on my kids. But even the most perfect parenting aspects, even if your parents would have been like the perfect, would have still created some issues for you to work on.
00:40:19
Speaker
ah later on right Oh, 100%. That was also something I tried to make so clear in the book. I am so grateful for my parents. I am very lucky. I am very privileged in a lot of ways, but they too have this balance kind of comes back to the duality. Like I said earlier, there are some beautiful, attractive, appealing and admirable parts of each of them. And there are also some parts that are more difficult to digest and really hard to be around and work with at times. And I have that myself, right? We all have that. But that's a ah point or a consideration that I really want readers to take away is I want you to be able to look at the people in your lives a little bit more balanced and accept and sit with
00:41:05
Speaker
it' It's both and, you're not gonna have either or, no one is all bad or all good and recognizing that that's a spectrum. Like I said, I think can really just help us cope more effectively and hopefully build more compassion and more grace and connection into the relationships that we have. And you know, even just their own personalities also made you bond very much with your grandma pride as well. You know, then just these other dynamics and relationships. and i No, she's ah passed away ah most recently, ah correct, recently. 2020. 2020. And that in itself, that's in the chapter of just how that also created a huge impact.
00:41:49
Speaker
in your in your life as well. so But again, without without your own dynamics with your parents, who knows how your your relationship with her would have been, whether it would have been that strong bond that you had. So all of this is also intertwined. Your relationships are complex and when you add grief to it and all of the other things and your own personalities, is yeah it's a yeah myriad of options.
00:42:18
Speaker
Yes, and the culture and the expectations, I think, growing up I thought this was normal but as I've gotten older, I don't think this is normal I think my childhood is quite unique in that.
00:42:30
Speaker
before my parents even had my brother and I, they sat down with both both their both sets of their parents and said, hey, we're going to have kids. you know we We want you guys to babysit them. So I was very lucky in that my grandma's had my brother and I for our whole childhood. right My mom's mom had us three days a week. My dad's mom had us two days a week. And so that getting to be with both families truly all of the time was so, I had no idea how privileged I was to have that sort of experience. And I think there's a lot of cultural family values, right, that play a role in how that came to be that have, of course, informed how I show up and some of the values that I have. And that allowed for me to be as close with both of my grandmas ah as I was and in. Thank you.
00:43:22
Speaker
Now, as we're wrapping up, I want to ask you a couple of questions.
Acceptance in Grief
00:43:25
Speaker
First one, what are some tools that you see are very are helpful for your clients and that you've seen have been helpful even for you in processing grief and navigating grief and mourning? Yes. I think one of the biggest things I would like to leave listeners with is
00:43:49
Speaker
There is no right way to do it. So trying to suspend expectations and give yourself compassion and just meet yourself where you are is really, really important. Understanding that it is not a linear process. It is very messy and conflicted and confusing. I think that is really helpful because what I often find is there's so much self-criticism and judgment and evaluation that people will share with me, right? When I'm working with someone. Because they aren't aware, right? They're expecting grief to go a certain way or they want it to follow the certain timeline. So I think that's one of the biggest pieces is just kind of suspending some of the notions around what you should or should not be doing.
00:44:38
Speaker
I think another big piece, and I kind of mentioned this earlier, but the acceptance piece and kind of sitting with the both and in that duality, I think those interventions are really, really important. Thinking through the gains and losses of different events, I think those are really, really important. And along with that, acceptance is recognizing, and again, this so directly ties into the title. That's why I wrote.
00:45:02
Speaker
The book called and she was never the same again to really illustrate that idea that after a significant loss, we are not going to return to our former self. That is not the goal. And that's okay. That that's not the goal. We will be forever changed. So I, I think that's a big piece. Finding community and support is really important. How?
00:45:28
Speaker
open? Do you feel you can be? How vulnerable do you feel you can be, right? Find communities, find ways to express yourself, even creatively. I mean, I wrote a book, right? But there's so many Greek artists out there or think about the music, you know, that we listen to. There's so many Greek themes in music. So whatever that expressive form is for yourself, try to find those ways to express yourself both individually and uh, collectively with support. I think that balance too is really important. We didn't talk too much about balance and flexibility, but I think those are key components in grief. Sometimes we need to be alone. Sometimes we need people. Sometimes we need to ask for people to come be in our space. Sometimes we need to tell people to leave our space, give yourself that flexibility and allow for that balance. Again, there is no right or wrong. You just kind of have to honor
00:46:25
Speaker
what you need and surround yourself with people who can honor that, even if they don't agree or even if they don't like it. That is so perfect because it's it is that it's encompassing all these different things and then finding the ways to kind of but channel these different ways that that are helpful in your grief journey. Whether again, like you said, expressing it, whether it's talking to just one person, whether it's going to a grief group, whether it's going to a therapist, whether it's going to a grief coach, whether it's just expressing it in dance or a book, like you said, some way of kind of taking it
00:47:08
Speaker
you know, from you out. Yes. Yeah. And I think I'll also leave people with this idea that that grief does not go away, but it does change shape over time. It takes up different space around us. And I think that piece is really important because at the end of the day, the only way to cope with grief is to be with it and go through it.
00:47:32
Speaker
You can't avoid it. You can't do your way out of it. It is always going to find its way right out into the open space in one way or another. So again, I think accepting that and acknowledging that and figuring out how to move forward with that is another ah coping mechanism, which isn't just one skill. That's a huge process, but but something that I would leave for people to consider. Perfect.
00:48:00
Speaker
Now, is there anything I have not asked you that you want to make sure to also add here to share with the audience? Oh, good question. Wow. We've talked about a lot of things.
00:48:17
Speaker
I don't think so. We've really. We've done a good job. Perfect. It's probably the first time I'm like, wait, you don't have any. Perfect. Now, what about your book? Let's ah share with the audience how they can get your book, where it's available, and she was never the same again.
Finding Natasha's Book
00:48:40
Speaker
ah How can they access it? And I'll make sure to include the show in the show notes. Yes. So a couple of ways you can access it, Amazon.
00:48:49
Speaker
And then locally here in Denver, I'm working on getting it into a couple of places. My hometown in Wyoming has it. And then you could also get it through my website npttherapy.com or the book website. And she was never the same again. Dot com.
00:49:06
Speaker
Perfect. So I am just so grateful again for you being on the show, Dr. Natasha Trujillo, again, author of, and she was never the same again. And you can, if you're an athlete, make sure to reach her through her website also, not just for her story, but for her services. And mainly athletes, correct? Mainly athletes?
00:49:29
Speaker
athletes and performers. Yes, both current and former. And although I live in Denver, I'm licensed in like 40 states throughout the country. So I work 40. I'm sure there's definitely Yeah, so yeah if you're in the United States, you're most likely able to be most likely. Yes, yes. And I would also say I do work with some ah just high performance professionals as well, business executives, lawyers, doctors, that sort of thing too. People who are perfectionists, have a very hard time relaxing, slowing down, you know have a hard time being, very good at doing, but i have a hard time being. so Oh, I like that, yes. That is probably a lot of us. Yes, yes it is. I'm very busy.
00:50:16
Speaker
ah Perfect. Well, thank you again, Natasha, for being on the show. Again, this was Dr. Natasha Trujillo, author of And She Was Never the Same Again. Thank you. Thank you.
00:50:33
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
00:51:02
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.