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Ep. 211 – Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivors’ Stories of Conversion Therapy w/ Dr. Luke
323 Plays1 month ago
This week we’re excited to welcome back one of our favorite people in the world, Dr. Luke! Luke has a book coming out next month called Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivors’ Stories of Conversion Therapy, and we’re anxiously awaiting its release. If you haven’t caught Luke on the show in the past, he’s a Liberty University graduate that endured “gay conversion therapy” under LU’s infamous anti-gay(wink) crusader, Dane Emerick. His story is one of many Luke brought together in the upcoming book, and we can’t wait to read them. The book drops on January 21, and you can preorder it through bookshop.org, Amazon, and many other book retailers, and follow Luke on Instagram (@lukeslamdunkwilson), X (@wilson_FW), and Bluesky (@lukeslamdunkwilson.bsky.social)!
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
It's, it's funny, because it's like you, you would like to think that it will turn into like, a like, CEOs and stuff all over the world will be like, wow, I guess I better think about my actions andcussions and, you know, possibly like change the way that our company is doing things. But instead, it's just gonna, like, what we're headed towards, regardless, this aside is like,
00:00:25
Speaker
ah extremely rich people with private armies yeah to protect them from the rest of us. They're gonna be like, actually, we need to deny 10% more claims to to cover the costs of our private military that's gonna follow us around.
00:00:41
Speaker
Well, didn't Elon Musk bring his son as like a human shield like the next day, like so he wasn't shy? Wasn't that what you were saying? He didn't bring it. It wasn't his trans kid that he brought as a human shield. No, certainly not. I know he hates that one. I don't think that one's allowed in the White House. no
00:01:15
Speaker
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Growing Up Christian. I'm Sam. I'm Casey. And tonight we are joined by our dad, your dad, everybody's dad, Luke Wilson. You can call me Daddy. Yeah. Daddy. Daddy. Is that Brazil? Is that Oh, what is it? Portuguese that they speak or that are in Brazil, right? Yes. Yes. ah But you know what, I guess the term for daddy is, uh, with mama is mommy and papay. I think it's papay. Papay is daddy.
00:01:49
Speaker
i li by look That sounds so hot when you say it. Well, here my name's Lukey, not Luke. Lukey. Lukey. The trickster. Dude, how are you doing, man? i love ah I love whenever we have you back on the show. It's always so much fun to have you join us. You are a certified friend of the show, man.
00:02:14
Speaker
I love to be on this show and I love to listen to this show and whenever I fly anywhere, I download all of your episodes as many as I can because I always forget to download everything until the last second before I get on a plane. But then with airport Wi-Fi, just go berserk and get as much of much of you boys on my on my phone and on my mind. ah that's I'm honored. I'm truly honored. What part of Brazil do you live in?
00:02:42
Speaker
I'm in Sao Paulo, um and yeah, the capital of Sao Paulo, which is... Is that the one that Jesus has given the big hug to the whole city? That's Rio, and that's Christ the Redeemer. You know him quite well. Both of you do. I do. I actually didn't realize that you were currently ah establishing your residence in Brazil.
00:03:06
Speaker
Uh, I wasn't, uh, planning on it, but then, you know, uh, things happened and your passport got stolen at a total crazy ass party. I'm currently, I'm currently at in a location where I don't know where I am. I'm inside of a room with no windows. One, one door that has a lock from the outside. So I hope that all works out. But until then, here we go. How much yeah i think the Brazil is to gaze what like, uh,
00:03:35
Speaker
You know, Delboca Vista, Florida is to old people. Like you guys just kind of instinctively flock there. Oh, my word. I've never been in a queer spot in my life. um And you know, I think that in Canada especially, I mean in in the US to a certain extent, but you know, people from the US are a little more forward than Canadians, but in Canada, you know, if you're flirting with someone and you're at a bar and you think someone's, you know, good looking,
00:04:01
Speaker
The thing you do is you turn your back to them and ignore them, like hard to get kind of vibes from like grade four. And like that's legitimately like the flirting culture in Toronto and like not so much in Montreal, but in Toronto for sure in Vancouver, you know, I don't, let's not even go there, i literally and figuratively, but in Toronto, you know, then, you know, you're looking at someone and you're giving them, you're giving them, you know, you're you're the back of your head and then every so often you look back and then you look and then you look away. By the end of the night, you know, you get a little message on Grindr and it's like, Hey, you looked really good tonight. You're like, what the hell? like you've been looking at me all night and like not like you decide to message me on Grindr like get real like how old are we that's gay culture there anyway here quite opposite you know you find someone cute and you know you're immediately you know by and large you're kissing them within you grab the bull by the horn among among among other places you grab yeah you certainly do do you like is it just
00:04:52
Speaker
Is it just no like you just know that they're gay you don't have to do you ever have to ask? Have you been wrong? Have you ever like been wrong? Well, you know when you go to the face like the gym You're you're never really really sure although one thing a big sign here is that if ah if a man shaves his legs It means he's free and if a man doesn't there's a better chance not always, you know, not always correct but better chance that he's gay willing but you can kind of get the vibes and I I think this is what straight people learn from a very young age and us queers, we had to learn as we go and figure it out by trial and error and unfortunate number of errors. but you know this is This is what they call cruising. where youre like you go you know I remember this from Liberty University's cafeteria. There was this one guy, I always thought he was so cute and I used to always make eyes with him and I was always like, does he? does he like Is he you know giving me the come here baby smile or is that just me? and Then when I saw him in group conversion therapy, I was like, wait a second, that clears things up. i know
00:05:44
Speaker
I now that know that no, that that sustained eye contact was signaling precisely what I thought it was. You know, so, um, yeah, that's, that's here. It's, you know, I think it's, it's a much more forward, uh, place where people are much more, um, yeah, friendly and warm. And I think part of that comes with the the flirting culture that, um, is just more outgoing than it would be, especially in Canada, but also, uh, in the U S I have pretty sure that like one of our first episodes that we did together.
00:06:13
Speaker
was titled like, conversion therapy is just gay speed dating or something like that. yeah It is, or it was part of me. and And you know what, I use that, I use that as the title of my story in the book that we're going to talk about, ah by my title in the an edited collection that we're going to talk about later. um That's the name of my chapter. I named the group conversion therapy chapter about, or I named it um ah gay Christian speed dating.
00:06:40
Speaker
oh Yeah, I feel like a contributor. I should have cited you. hu My one and only citation. The ah the leg shaving thing is, ah look, as I'm getting closer, I'm closer to 40 than 30 now and ah my my leg hair has gotten so patchy, the thought of shaving my legs hasn't not dawned on me at this point. i it likes like It looks like my legs have alopecia and I'm not loving that.
00:07:12
Speaker
Well, I just discovered that I have a patch of my beard that's not as filled in. Come on down. I found out that this patch right here, I couldn't see it and I didn't really notice it in photos, but I just found out that my my beard's not fully filled in and there's also gray hair there now. and and I feel like an elderly citizen or an old citizen. What is it? An elderly citizen.
00:07:33
Speaker
Whatever the grays are coming in real strong for me too now I I think that's I think a lot of men have like you like no one else thinks about it You like I don't I've never thought anything about your beard other than it looks great mine I'm always like I just never came in full here never really came up my chin for like I feel like men really do get on themselves about like if they want a beard like I if I don't have like have a nice enough face to not have a beard like without it. It's just my chin is shitty. It's just none of it's great with under there and I so I need it. I haven't not had a beard ah since I could grow one and it's not like it's not an incredible beard. It's ah
00:08:15
Speaker
not that full, but it works. It it covers enough of my face where, uh, I feel fine with it, but that is, uh, I think that's most people's complaints, uh, is like, everyone's going to look at their beard and be like, God damn it. It just, I wish it just came. I want him for my beard. I just fucking, you're just taking your, you're just taking your cue from Casey. It seems.
00:08:37
Speaker
who can't grow beer, but lucky he has a nice face. I would love to grow one, but mine is all just those patches. I have them in every inopportune spot. I have one right under my chin, so it grows in below it, it grows in above it, but then I just have this weird, maybe my double chin is just rubbed together too much over there. I have a road rash on my neck. It's been growing out. It looks like a pigtail when you grow out your chin beard.
00:09:04
Speaker
That would be a look for sure. Casey, you just go you know you you don't need a beard, Casey. You you know my thoughts about about your face. I think you're just so handsome. You don't need anything to cover up that delicious little countenance of yours. Well, thank you. Yeah, I'm chair um a little cherubic.
00:09:22
Speaker
nick yeah Are you claiming Native American ethnicity? Dude, I could i could be like the fat precious moments doll. I would trail it on your grandma's like curio cabinet shelf. Oh my god, precious moments. Does anyone still collect those?
00:09:41
Speaker
I hope so. I see them at Goodwill a lot. Yeah. it's just it there's there I hate them so much. like when i see a just It's kind of like Cabbage Patch dolls where you're just like, what was ever the appeal here? like They're so gross looking. you know um theyre like The the collect so collector's item of like ceramic or porcelain, I don't know what it is. Are you guys familiar with Willow Tree? I think it's Willow Tree.
00:10:10
Speaker
ay think I'm like, no, I think that is, um, I think that's millennial precious moments. I think that's what it moved to. It's a little bit more artsy, uh, plenty of precious moments is pop finals. That like Funko pops Funko pops. That's what I meant. It's the only thing worse than precious moments.
00:10:35
Speaker
Similar head to body ratio. Yeah, they're like little vinyl figurines with giant heads and it's like, oh, I got, I got a Deadpool Funko pop for Christmas. It's like, great. You should get rid of it. I didn't know those were called Funko pops. I know what they are once I looked them up, but I didn't realize that's what they are. Every, every gamer has them on a shelf behind where they do their Twitch streaming. Exactly. Yeah. Those terrible, like, like a fluctuating neon lights.
00:11:03
Speaker
Oh yeah you gotta have those dude. And there are other action figures that are there as well and you're like you have action figures? Like wait what? i Occasionally I see certain like collectible action figures and I just go those look cool. I wish I had the disposal. like um I just look at what people have hobby wise where it's like that's what they save up for you know and I don't I just can't imagine getting to ah being at any point in my life and from here on out where that's just a viable option. It's just knickknacks to put on a shelf.
00:11:38
Speaker
There's this this guy I follow on Instagram and what he does is he has all these knickknacks and what I now know to be Funkos all over his wall and like, you know, like figurines of like from like, I don't know, Mario and whatnot. And he dresses in these like really slutty little outfits and then he shows like as low towards his pubes as possible. And that's what his like entire account is. It's wild, wild stuff.
00:12:04
Speaker
Okay, here, I'll paint a scenario here and you tell me like what you would do. All right. So you're at the bar and, uh, you and the other Canadian gay dude are ignoring each other, you know, in hot fashion. For usual. What else? Somehow during the night, like, I don't know if you bump into him and he spills his school books or whatever and you help him pick them up. But then you guys, you hit it off, drinks are had. One thing leads to another.
00:12:31
Speaker
skip to tomorrow morning and you're waking up in a haze like, where am I? Right. And you roll over and you kick off like the Obi-Wan Kenobi sheets. And there's just a whole wall of Funko pops all in boxes because that's how you preserve the value.
00:12:49
Speaker
You know, like what is your reaction? Is there like instant regret or is it like, well, this is something new. Do you think like maybe I'm in like full costume at this point as well. And I look over and he's got like, you know, like, I don't know, like latex ears and a nose like strapped on. Is that among other things strapped on? You're like, is is that what like, is that what I just want to understand where we are.
00:13:12
Speaker
I'm not getting this Osaka wig, Osaka, whatever her name is. he's He's got prosthetics on. The dick hair, you know? Yeah, those very shiny, very flammable wigs. Yeah, he's got a flammable wig prosthetics and a 70s bush. Like, that's just like, he's in full gear. His head literally hasn't trimmed up but above his knees and below his belly button in the past 30 years.
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's got like a really like severe blunt crop on that, you know, that bush, but nonetheless, it's still full. um Is there like a, is there like a thing in the gay community or like beer goggles for straight dudes?
00:13:55
Speaker
is it like ah Do you guys have like a martini monocle or something? It's so classy. um I don't know. i think We'd probably say beer goggles as well, um but you know the the principle bare minimum, whether or not the language changes, the principle remains the same, I think.
00:14:13
Speaker
um where you you regret things later. I remember, you know, this was from my straight days. um I had more regrets actually in my straight days than I did when I came out. But I remember I was at, i was I was literally, I went and was doing my master's in Ontario after I graduated from Liberty. And I was leading essentially leading a youth group. Like every Friday night, that's what I did my Friday nights. I led this youth group with my buddy Nigel and my friend Caleb. and We, it was like a youth group of like five or six kids. Like there were never many kids, but nonetheless, it was like, it was kind of fun, whatever. Um, when I go back and do it, never again, but I was there, you know, leave this youth group and the the church that I went to wasn't too large, but we, there was a wedding and my friend, uh, my friend was getting, my friends were getting married and I went to the wedding and it was an open bar and my buddy, Quinnie and I got like way too drunk. Like it was like, I went in and was just like, oh free, like open bar. So why I would just wait every.
00:15:11
Speaker
you know beer I would finish, back to the bar to get a new one, back to the bar. By the end of the night, I remember I was so intoxicated, and of course, like the entire like church like leadership team essentially is there. and i' I'm you know dancing with this one gal, and I remember I thought, like and this is the days these were the days when I was still trying to be straight, and so I was like, oh man, like I convinced everyone. being straight and, oh, I really did a good job. and really and you know But then I saw the picture of this this woman the next day and I was like, no one's going to believe that. like it was just so and was jim for a game Even for a game and I was just like, um I don't think I convinced anyone of anything. Oh boy, I feel terrible telling that story, but um it was not a pretty picture. I'll say that, it was not a pretty picture.
00:16:04
Speaker
that's I also love the idea of just getting wasted at a you know a church um wedding it's uh because open part man dude open bars are wonderful like when if you if you get an invite to a wedding like that's the first thing that crosses your mind like god damn it i have to go if i have to go to this thing it better be open bar like yeah and you know a lot of times it won't be and then you're like so now i'm gonna go i'm gonna give a you know i'm i i feel like you gotta be a fairly generous giver because i've
00:16:36
Speaker
I've been married. I know how much that shit costs. I know how much you pay per plate and it's only gone up since then. And you just go like, ah you have to, I mean, you have to at least cover the cost of like your food being there. But when they go open bar, you go, now this is where the balancing act comes into play where you go, I can, I'm getting my money back. Maybe I love that. yeah And if you go off the open bar, then you hold it against them.
00:17:02
Speaker
Oh yeah. you And you just go too hard. You're like, as soon as it's open, you're like, you are. you're The lines for open, I love when they go, um I love when weddings are like open bar for the first hour and a half. And then you just watch fucking everyone be line it there. And it's like the longest line. And then as soon as like the hour and a half is like over, the line is like three people deep for the rest of the night. ah Exactly. Yeah. So we have a few things we got to talk about tonight.
00:17:31
Speaker
ah Obviously you've got a ah book coming out which is incredible. We'll save the best for last. um But there was a ah fun event that happened recently that's really unified the country.
00:17:43
Speaker
quite a lot it it has i think This is the most united we've been since possibly 9-11, if I'm thinking hard about it. And a CEO for a ah health insurance company got murdered in daylight by a guy who rolled up on him with a silencer on his pistol and ah wrote, deny, defend, depose on the bullet casings that he ended the dude's life with.
00:18:13
Speaker
so and didn't Didn't you ride away on a city bike? Yeah, it's a city bike apron. That was it. He got away on a city bike. It's not exactly covering your tracks, is it? I mean, if you've got to scan your phone or whatever to get it started. Yeah, I don't know how those are tracked. And then he left his bag. What was in his bag that he left behind? It was like Monopoly money, wasn't it? Yeah, that's what it was. A headline that had something like that in it. Yeah, Monopoly money. Like, I just can't really get into the headspace of this person and what they did and why they did it. But I... Like this is, you know, this is like if Batman killed people, this is, you know, where this is, this is a punisher level, like kind of type shit or what's the other there's the other anti hero that I'm thinking of that has no problem ending lives.
00:19:04
Speaker
um bob the tomato yeah and ah but yeah i just find this such a fascinating story because i really expected to hear a lot of people being like guys it's this isn't cool like someone was killed like Like one of the things, the first thing I thought of was how like, you know, if, um, if an addict dies through, because of an overdose, people are like, well, I don't know. What do you expect is going to happen? Like that's just, you live that life. That's what happens. Or if, uh, you know, gang violence, right? If you're in living in and that world and you, uh, catch a bullet, people go, I mean, yeah, I guess it's sad, but like, you know,
00:19:48
Speaker
they They might even quote Jesus and say something stupid. Like if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Some shit they don't really believe in. And so one of those play stupid games when stupid prizes sort of post from yeah yeah the most unbearable dude on your block. yeah And then so what I you usually when like a wealthy white dude dies like this, people just act like they've never done anything wrong in their life. and I can't imagine why that would happen. And that was what I was expecting. And that was not the case here at all. So one of the funny things about stuff like this that that elicits such like a visceral reaction from the public is like if you can find like the first articles
00:20:33
Speaker
Like the very first articles that get released before the like hack mainstream media realizes which way the wind's blowing. Yeah. Yeah. Like the AP wrote, wrote an article about it. Like that, that was the first thing I read on it was, was this AP article. And it was like a eulogy for the guy. It's like under his leadership, the company's stock rose by X number of percentage. And, you know, he's survived by his lovely wife and his kid and this and that and the other. And you're reading it and you're like,
00:21:03
Speaker
What? like This sounds like they're they're reading a like they're writing a eulogy for a firefighter or something. And then an hour later, the Internet's just like good. Everyone good. ah United Health Care. is ah Am I saying it right? It's United Health Care, right? Yeah. ah They I guess like shortly after they put out a Facebook post, it was like,
00:21:31
Speaker
You know, our CEO tragically died in a vicious murder, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it had like, they pulled the post because within a couple of hours, it just had 20,000 laughing emojis for like the reaction.
00:21:44
Speaker
that's getting really also yeah Didn't they also post a ah job announcement for his position on LinkedIn 24 hours after his amount? His position just became available. That would be the most corporate America way to handle that. like Look, we're really obviously been a ah been out of shape about this tragic loss, but like business is business and we got to keep this shit running.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah, they they pulled the Facebook post and then they they put on the LinkedIn post. They you know replaced with the LinkedIn post. It was a brilliant idea, really. Who wants to take that job? Always smokes. That's an outside hire for sure. Yeah. Some of the things I love about it is, i mean I've joked as well as many other people have, ah just about ah But we've had the conversation about how I if you just had like a purge for billionaires, just the open season, um make them scared. It's like, and that that's what everyone that's what people are really just talking about in a very serious way now, like, ah
00:22:53
Speaker
this This guy, I mean, UnitedHealthcare, the information that you you know people have written about post this guy's death is like the the amount of claims they deny, the AI algorithm they use to automatically deny claims, even though it's been proven time and time again that like, in a very large percent of the time, it denies people when it shouldn't, and they've refused to fix that because they'll just, oh, just ah make an appeal. like they don't They don't care. um I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I read a i read a comparison. They were talking about how their deny rate in 2018 was 10%, and it had jumped to 22% in 2020 or 2021.
00:23:39
Speaker
And like the past year or something, it was like close to a third of all claims are being denied by United. I mean, it's supposed to be one of the worst ones. Yeah. and Here's the crazy thing. Like your, your joke about the billionaire deal and stuff like that. This, this, I think is very instructive on how absurd like billionaires are. Cause this guy wasn't one. Like I've seen some competing numbers on like what his actual like net worth was, but like.
00:24:08
Speaker
The ones that I saw right off the bat were like, they were seeing that like his total net worth was somewhere in the range of like 40 to $60 million. dollars Really? That's it, huh? Yeah. And it might be a couple hundred million. I mean, I saw, I saw like a few, post like a few different like, like estimates on that, but.
00:24:29
Speaker
I mean, not even close to a billionaire, which is it's just crazy to think about like, this guy was like, he might as well be making coffee for like, some of these other jes right.
00:24:42
Speaker
Now, ah Luke, you were saying before we hit the hit the old record button that ah the gay community had a particular take on this the specimen of a man. yeah what's his name like he was a snomley or something yeah like right off the bat you know with a name like that you can do anything to anyone and they'll be down mc clo i mean he i yeah yeah for those who perhaps haven't seen him i don't know how you haven't seen him but um from
00:25:12
Speaker
mugshot, but also the like these like thirst traps that he had posted for you know way back when. The man is beautiful. and you know A lot of folks are saying that he shouldn't be arrested. and Instead, he should just be released for a meet and greet or something along those lines. um People are just living for how handsome he is. He doesn't need the death penalty because he could very quickly get fucked to death in the you if you released him to the the community.
00:25:40
Speaker
yeah we got they got things to say and things to do there's two pictures that were floating around and one i don't i feel like they didn't look the same there's a lot of jokes being made about it because one looked very very feminine um like i saw it and i was like I assumed it was a woman, but then I saw another picture where it looked more masculine. So I'm like, I'm not sure what was going on with that. And then there was like the the the shooter lookalike meet and greet that happened in New York too, which is hilarious. It's just so weird. It's a very V for a vendetta-ish, right? Where it's just like people dressing up as a character. Like I'm i'm i i'm genuinely interested in what this could turn into.
00:26:24
Speaker
um is is it It's going to turn into the next Ryan Murphy special. That's what it's going to turn into. i Yeah. it's It's funny because it's like you you would like to think that it will turn into like a like CEOs and stuff all over the world will be like, wow, I guess I better think about my actions and, repcussions and you know, possibly like change the way that our company is doing things. But instead, it's just gonna, like, what we're headed towards, regardless, this aside is like, ah extremely rich people with private armies,
00:27:03
Speaker
yeah to protect them from the rest of us. They're going to be like, actually, we need to deny 10% more claims to to cover the cost of our private military that's going to follow us around. Well, didn't Elon Musk bring his son as like a human shield like the next day, like like he wasn't shot? Wasn't that what people were saying? He didn't bring it. It wasn't his trans kid that he brought as a human shield. No, certainly not. I know he hates that. I don't think that one's allowed in the White House. no he's He's not even, he's chilling in Mar-a-Lago these days. Apparently he basically moved in.
00:27:37
Speaker
This is, that's a short term arrangement. Can you imagine, can you imagine just hanging out very well? I would, I would love the opportunity to just sit in the same room as like Trump and Musk just paddling around. Cause it's going to be, it has to be lame as fuck. It has to be so fucking stupid, not fun. And they, and I bet they're laughing so hard all the time. They think everything they, they love it. Uh,
00:28:04
Speaker
I also heard an interesting take not too long ago ah that people wonder if Musk, because of Musk's spotlight, if Trump will be able to stomach him for too long, because if Musk but starts to like overshadow Trump in popularity, that'll just rub him the wrong way. And he'll just be like, yeah, fuck you. I'm done with you. You're no use to me any anymore. Yeah. He's going to get the Steve Bannon treatment. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:32
Speaker
He and he might not get a pardon if he fucks up along the way. Maybe not. Interesting if you're interested in this kind of thing. So the the gun that the guy that Luigi Stromboli used to murder the man.
00:28:49
Speaker
that's his actual That's his name. that That's the name. Yes, Luigi Stromboli. How is that possible? Luigi Paparoni Stromboli.
00:29:01
Speaker
I think he's French. That's the name of an Italian. That's the name of like ah a guy who owns a bakery on an SNL sketch. like That's lowbrow.
00:29:15
Speaker
like naming someone for the sake of comedy. I don't remember what his actual name was, but I remember it was very Italian sounding. I didn't I didn't know the name was released. ah So they know who the person is. They just haven't found him. oh they They arrested him. Yeah. Oh, I didn't hear that shit. I've been under a rock. The past McDonald's in McDonald's. Yeah. Cops work in McDonald's, apparently. Hmm.
00:29:40
Speaker
Hamburg would traded him in for climate C Dude I get a I got a fresh it up on on the story that I'm a couple days behind I think So the gun that the guy used is this thing called a B and&T VP 9. It's very interesting if you look it up So it's I guess it's a veterinary pistol It's like a bolt action nine millimeter with like an integrated silencer on it. It must be used to like euthanize large animals or something like farm work or something like that, but very strange gun kind of interesting. Maybe he did his research. Is it quiet? Is he saying that this... It's symbolic. He's saying that this man was an animal. Hey, I like that. That's a good take for that he kills animals.
00:30:34
Speaker
Uh, I, I, I've never heard a pistol fired with a silencer on it. Uh, but my understanding is that what you hear in the movies is, uh, very wrong and that if you wouldn't know if you heard a pistol with the silence. You just don't know. You might've heard it. You just don't know. It sounds like, yeah.
00:31:01
Speaker
yeah Full auto. It sounds like.
00:31:05
Speaker
It's shuffling through snow. ah if you okay So it depends on what kind of ammo you're using. So if you're using like a normal okay round that's hypersonic, then you're breaking the sound barrier.
00:31:19
Speaker
Like it's way quieter than no silencer, but it's still like, it's, it's got some pop to it. But, uh, if you're using subsonic ammunition, which is what the guy used in this case, like it's pretty quiet. I mean, it's not like movie quiet. It's not that, to to you know, James Bond thing like golden eye. It's very quiet. Like you don't need hearing protection and stuff. If you're, if you're shooting one subsonic like that, they're actually pretty cool. I.
00:31:48
Speaker
ah one of my buddies just, you have to go through like this whole process and buy a permit and then send it to the ah the ATF and all this stuff to get one here. yeah I imagine the first question anybody asks when you want to buy a silencer is why do you need to buy a silencer? Once more. like I can think of one reason that this would come in handy. They geocache your location to see if there's likely water towers nearby.
00:32:18
Speaker
ah No, it's basically just for hearing protection is more or less what people use them for is it's just way less loud, hard on your ears. For practice, so like just for going out shooting, does it impact the trajectory? ah Does it make it more or less accurate? Because sometimes video games will use, oh, you throw the silencer on it, we're going to do less damage and maybe less accuracy.
00:32:46
Speaker
more accuracy, I forget. But you'll see it change stats on guns in video games. I don't think so. I mean, obviously, if you're using subsonic ammo, like there's not as much oomph there. So the bullets going to drop more over distance. But I don't think it necessarily affects it negatively you know any other way. so Good to know. Yeah. And that is your unwanted gun fact of the week.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah, so all around I find this story fascinating. I think you're right. It's gonna make no impact at all I would love for it to I would like more people to be scared to show up in public places if they ah made a career out of Actually killing people essentially so ah But it won't unless it happens again in case anyone ah You know, I mean don't Don't do it
00:33:48
Speaker
But I wouldn't. That's all I'm saying. I just wouldn't do it. if You do you live your truth. Yeah, i I like that. I think that's the message we've learned from post evangelicalism and axevangelicalism is just live your truth. Whatever that means to you. So yeah you said earlier you got some literature. I did. I received a lovely letter in the mail.
00:34:16
Speaker
handwritten heartfelt oh no it's not handwritten it's just ah it was typed in cursive font or not quite cursive like pseudo cursive it's close enough i guess but yeah very about a thoughtful group of people in the area um that are most commonly known as jojovas witnesses and they've they've come by but i don't think i shared this story before so Uh, my, so my dog hates anyone coming anywhere near my property and he starts flipping his shit. And there's like that, a truck showed up to deliver a package, like few barks. And then there's that like, someone's in my yard and he's, if he's about to bust through a second story window and kill himself trying to get to them. Um,
00:35:08
Speaker
Good guard dog, very annoying sometimes when you, that's not really what, that was not what I was looking for, but we don't have to talk about how much I kind of want to rehome my dog right now. um ah that The J-dubs show up a couple months ago and they're just knocking on, so I live in a raised ranch, so the, ah when you pull into my driveway, like the the door right there next to my garages into my basement. I finished my basement. ah I finished my basement because when my foster son moved in we needed more space. ah So I put a bedroom down there and finished the basement so he was able to have a place that was more comfortable because my house is very fucking tiny. And I'm hearing in this my dog lose his shit so I go outside and I see these d two people standing at the door down there. I'm like
00:36:03
Speaker
Can I help you? And they're like, oh, sorry. We didn't mean to alarm you. It's like, okay. That's instantly the cadence's cult member. Like it's a, we know that cadence. Like why you, why are you talking so soft? You bring you good tidings of great joy. it And it's like, ah and it' feel you too yeah it's just man and woman. And they're like,
00:36:27
Speaker
oh uh no sorry weird is your son home i was like why do you want to talk to my son like you're being weird as shit right now i hope you know it's weird to ask me when you're knocking on my basement door and then you're asking for my son i'm very kids come out and play yeah i'm very and uh i was like no he's at work who the fuck are you and they're like oh sorry we're Jehovah's Witnesses and you know we we actually apparently when he was home one day uh because you know he's been in school like college so online and like when my kids are at school I'm at work my wife's at work he's home they come by and uh apparently he talked to them for a while and uh
00:37:15
Speaker
They're like, yeah, we just, you know, it's been a little while since we had come by and talked to him. We just wanted to see how he's doing. I was like, that's weird. Like go away. And they're like,
00:37:26
Speaker
They said something, the thing that killed me though is they're like, yeah, like, you know, we're not here to force anything on anyone. You know, he, he mentioned that he's Muslim. And I was like, uh, come again. Like, yeah, he said he's, he he's, he's, he practices Islam, but, uh, you know, we're just, you know, we're not trying to force anyone to think differently. We're just trying to have conversations. I'm like, that's fine. But like, he's.
00:37:52
Speaker
he's fucking with you he is not he is not muslim at all like i just he's it's never come up in our house uh it's not a thing that he's ever really identified with he eats whatever he wants he doesn't pray he this he's not a religious person so i don't that's very weird to me this conversation all around is very strange And they were like, oh, OK. And you could see like a sense of betrayal, right? Like I can't believe a total stranger would lie to the freaks showing up at your doorstop to try to convert you. That's crazy. um So that happened a few months ago. But ah so apparently they're very just committed to my home at this point. I get and this is like the probably fifth letter I've gotten in the past couple of years. i I reached out to one Casey like two years ago ah that sent me a letter because I was like,
00:38:45
Speaker
You should do my podcast." He was like, no, I'm good. like I wasn't trained for this. yeah ah But the letter I got, they even know my full my full first name, my wife's full first name, and her peculiar spelling of it.
00:39:05
Speaker
um My wife and I hope this letter finds you in good health. That also is a funny thing to start a letter with. Like this isn't the 1800s where you're like... I was just going to say, how old are you? Yeah. Like the assumption is that you like are dying of the common cold, right? Like where it's like the the assumption is everyone's in bad health. So they're like, we hope you're doing all right. Like this is America and I know healthcare is a bitch, but like I'm probably in good health. Uh, yeah.
00:39:36
Speaker
As part of our community volunteer service, we are reaching out to our neighbors by means of letters, as we are all affected one way or another by the events taking place globally, as well as locally. Sometimes these events can be quite disturbing to us. The Bible is the world's most popular book. Solid segue. Yeah. You may already have a copy in your home. I do.
00:40:02
Speaker
This is, I feel like I'm already in conversation with them. I feel like we are friends. ah You feel seeing it probably at this point. I do. I'm like, have you been inside my house? it's it's wit Its wisdom can help you and your family enjoy life now and again, and gain real hope for the future. Jehovah's Witnesses offer a home Bible study program that is designed to help you get the most out of your own Bible.
00:40:28
Speaker
you will not be taught religious traditions, only what the Bible teaches, which is the funniest fucking thing that any religious group has ever said because each one vastly different traditions and all of them think it's because they're reading it the right way. So that's a nice take.
00:40:47
Speaker
We're not a religion, we're a relationship, and we don't have an interpretation. Everyone else has an interpretation. We do the plain reading of a book that was written over thousands of years that we can't read the original language in. But we're all about the plain reading. Of cultures you don't understand. From one person who's never been educated in the topic of this book, or any background, history, context, implications of this book to another, let us do a Bible study together.
00:41:15
Speaker
this say This something something feels a little blind leading the blind at this point. like What the hell? I'm going to trust the community volunteer service with my eternal salvation. That's a good idea. Someone with like a GED you know diploma, like that's what they got and they're going to lead you in the eternal way. I can't imagine them doing a Bible study with someone who had no point of reference for like Christianity or yeah like there's, there's this, uh, like Dan Carlin's got this great podcast series about the Mongols called the wrath of the cons. And one of the later cons after gang is, uh, I think it was like monkey con or something like that, um, gets a letter from the Pope at one point and it's like traveled the silk road across all of Asia to get to, you know, the cons hands.
00:42:12
Speaker
And it's this letter from the Pope that has to be then translated into a language that they can understand. So it's going through multiple people and stuff like that. And like you can actually like read the letter that the Pope wrote the con. And it's I have to imagine that that Bible study would be kind of like because it's like the most absurd language for somebody like to give this to somebody with no point of reference for like Christianity. It's like We who, according to the the divine right of the Father and the Holy Trinity, which we do not bequeath the blah, blah, blah of the... dream thing Do hereby question why it is that you strike down the chosen servants of the Lord, who he in his mercy hath seen to blah, blah, blah. It's like the... There's no way that you could interpret this and the cons just like I don't know what you're saying But if you want to talk to me like mr Pope come swear fealty to me now or I'll kill everyone He's like I was actually about to find my chill for a second But I'm now I'm just gonna kill all of you like that. That's so annoying to talk like that.
00:43:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's ah that's a Jehovah's Witness in 2024 sitting down with a total like Bible newbie for a Bible study. Well, what's helpful about this is ah you know given the tough times that we are in, this Bible study is free and there is no charge for the Bible. I even get a free Bible.
00:43:45
Speaker
whoa or Bible study publication that you'll use. You choose when, where, and how often you'd like to study. You will consider Bible subjects by topic. A study session may be as short as 10 minutes or up to an hour if you're really, really horny for the Bible. Regardless of go yeah regardless of where or when you choose to study,
00:44:09
Speaker
You are not obligated to become one of the Jehovah's Witnesses. There are no tests or exams and you can learn at your own pace. The lessons include illustrations for people who are due too dumb to just use words.
00:44:25
Speaker
and videos that make learning easier and more enjoyable. I hope they like the 90s drivers and videos. I hope they're that quality. But you know the pictures. Yeah, they still, they like they roll in that TV that's still on those little wheels.
00:44:42
Speaker
The ones that like they wheeled in when they were show and that was a ah when they were showing a movie in school when like back in the 90s. Great metal cart. Yeah. It had the VCR DVD combo in the bottom. That's it. And you know that this is on VHS. like They're like, do you have a VHS or ah an adapter? You're like, why do I have an adapter? the adapt note yeah like The word of prayer, they push play, and they're like, I forgot to rewind. Hang on.
00:45:09
Speaker
Give me three and a half minutes of silence. One second. yeah Use this time to meditate. And then they have to like adjust the tracking wheel after they hit play. yeah yeah It's been worn out for been shown way too many times. I've taped Frasier over it at one point.
00:45:31
Speaker
It's like the time that I accidentally taped a season finale of Pokemon over my parents' wedding video because I had to be at home school co-op.
00:45:46
Speaker
thats excitement That's honestly just a joke. I didn't do that, but I did tape. um I wish I did. I did take, I should have just lied. I should have kept, I just should have rolled with that lie. Um, but I would, I used to record like everything on VHS. I, had the amount of VHS is at my parents of like, I can't miss this episode and you would like set the timer and shit. You did find other ways to ruin their marriage though. Just be clear.
00:46:09
Speaker
I did. They're still together for some wild reason. um All right, let's see. let's and What's the last thing they wanted to tell me? You'll have the opportunity to read and research the material before you discuss it with one of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Study sessions can be held at your home, over the phone, or via video conferencing. And I'm genuinely considering doing a video conference ah Bible study with these people.
00:46:38
Speaker
I'll you'll learn how to apply the Bible's wisdom so you can enjoy life to the full They gave me their personal email in this cool little pamphlet. It's all backwards. Is it backwards for you guys? No, what is the key to happy family life? Yeah ah Sorry, I got some bad news for you Luke. It probably doesn't include being gay i know ah do you think it is what is the key to family to happy family life do you think it is ellipsis love question mark money question mark or something else
00:47:18
Speaker
ah I feel like, I feel like it's multiple things. I don't know. Call me crazy, but yeah, it could be so many things. It gave you love money and something else. something else Those are the three, uh, those are the three choices right there. Love money and something else. Were these people white? Uh, yeah, but their literature has mixed families on it. So that's nice. You should tell him your son's nation of Islam, not Muslim. ah like He thinks you guys were lab grown.
00:47:46
Speaker
exactly yeah I do love how their literature usually does include mixed-race families when Jehovah's Witnesses are whiter than evangelicals. And aren't they the ones who think, like like like or is it them or is it Latter-day Saints who believe that people were cursed and as ah like those who were cursed were cursed to be black? That was Latter-day Saints.
00:48:11
Speaker
Latter-day Saints. Pardon me. Yeah. Joe was witness. There is a lot of black black people in the Joe was witnessed. Oh, is it? I i must have been confusing too. But also I learned at Liberty, I had a professor. He's probably dead now. ah Dr. Fink. okay And he we had I've definitely told this story before, but it's been a while. So ah I'll quickly rehash it. We had um It was a Bible 350 was like the oh that that was like the class that everyone was like worried about at Liberty if you were a Bible major and we had one black kid in the class and this old motherfucker starts talking about the that curse of Cain shit and it's just like
00:48:56
Speaker
Yeah, like God made him black so everyone knew he's the one who fucked up. And you just, every like you everyone looks at this kid and he's just, you can just tell he's heard this shit before. He's just kind of chilling like, yeah, no, I've been around racism for so long. I'm all ah almost desensitized to it.
00:49:14
Speaker
um It was a right it was the most you could all the white kids just we're all just sitting there like Sweating like this is the weirdest conversation I've ever not even come you're just being lectured about it And he's like now some people think that I happen to think that's the most logical Explanation for it but some of the other things im yeah hey It's ah and even for liberty that would you know that When we were there, even for Liberty at the time that we were there, that would have been like, wait a second. you know like At least offer you pause, even though like obviously there was like even worse stuff being said you know behind closed doors and dorms. But this kind of stuff, it's just like when it comes from an authority like Dr. Stink, P-U, or whatever his name was. um you know
00:50:01
Speaker
It brings a little bit, ah what's the word? It's a little bit heavier. Yeah, and it was it was just one like it was obvious that everyone in the class felt uncomfortable, like you felt it together and you just go, why is this guy, why is he allowed to entertain this idea as like a legitimate theory? But then you think about all the ideas that were entertained as legitimate theories and how, but I mean, when you're playing Christian Dungeons and Dragons, it's like,
00:50:32
Speaker
Who really gets to decide which ideas are the weird ones? I mean, therere and there a lot of them are weird. That one just happened to be weird and racist. Um, so this pamphlets cool though, because it it goes, um, I'm going to look these Bible verses up too. Cause none of this makes that much sense, but it says, can we really believe what the Bible says? Yes. For at least two reasons. So the assumption is that they're going to actually give you at least two reasons why it might make sense to believe this.
00:51:05
Speaker
vast book. um Turns out they go a different direction. So one of the reasons you can believe the Bible is what it says it is, is God's the originator of family life. See, the Bible says that every family owes its name to Jehovah God.
00:51:27
Speaker
And in other words, the family unit exists because Jehovah created it. And why is that significant? Consider this, because you probably haven't. If you were enjoying a tasty meal and wanted to learn its ingredients, who would you ask?
00:51:44
Speaker
Logically, the person who prepared it. Likewise, to discover the ingredients for a happy family life, we do well to look to Jehovah, the originator of the family arrangement, according to Genesis 2, 18 to 24. And that is a reason why you can believe what the Bible says.
00:52:05
Speaker
You can believe the Bible because the Bible says that God wrote it and God wrote it so therefore you should believe it. Which actually is a better argument than this. like this is you can believe You can believe what the Bible says because the Bible says God created family.
00:52:24
Speaker
in like yeah And the idiots in the... who here yeah I have a family! Oh my god! it's I guess it's true! That's the kind of stuff where it's like, you guys are proofreading your own material. Yeah, yeah i don't I don't think this was peer reviewed. I know you know something about the peer review process, Luke. and does Where does this maybe land? Oh boy, I mean it's peer reviewed in the sense that like, ah went from one Jehovah's Witness to another.
00:52:54
Speaker
It was perhaps peer reviewed in that sense, whereas when it comes to academic standards, I mean, you just hear this, Stefan. You think to yourself, like, how in the world could anyone believe this? But obviously, like, people do believe this. Like, that to them was a solid argument. I mean, like, that to them was like, we're really going to get them with this one. Hey, guys, you're wrong. Like, you said two reasons. I don't even need to keep reading.
00:53:21
Speaker
ah But reason number two is that is that God cares about you That's why you can believe what the Bible says because God cares about you that makes everything in the Bible true like let's just even think for a moment that like, you know a ah A what's the word I'm looking for personified version of God exists, right if that's the case and that God does care about you, that actually still has no bearing on whether or not the the actual Bible is true. Especially because that book has a lot of things that indicate that he might not care that much about a lot of people. A lot of them were yeah ah demanded to be slaughtered ah for the sake of usurping land or some shit. but
00:54:10
Speaker
um Families are wise to seek Jehovah's advice which he provides through his word why because he cares for you that's in quotes and apparently it's from first Peter five six and seven and That's that's why you can believe what the Bible says ah Jehovah has your best interest at heart And his counsel always works according to Proverbs 3, 5, 6 and Isaiah 48, 17 and 18. So I love how they include those footnotes as if they mean anything to someone who is like reading this from the outside.
00:54:48
Speaker
Yeah, you're you're referencing the material to prove the material. It's very silly. ah They do say that what can what that can mean for you, ah you can find real love according to Ephesians 5, 28, and 29. I am looking that up right now. I also love the way that they opened everything where they're like, um current events, um both global and local, it can be troubling.
00:55:13
Speaker
i relax Do we make a more general statement? like What point in human history was there not a time where people were troubled by you know what's going on you know next door and then what's going on you know in another country across the world? Jeez Louise, like I love this. like Whoever is believing this, you know here's the argument, well, we can believe the Bible because God cares. like These are the people who are also like, well, I am troubled by what's going on.
00:55:40
Speaker
Across the world and also what's going on and like, you know aunt Susan's backyard warm the end Things are just running amok It is hilarious to invoke like the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in such a like sterilized Like generic ways like it's It's a little upsetting. yeah Yeah, it made me feel a sad real quick. Some of the finding the the finding real love in Ephesians 5.28 is, ah so ought men love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. And to that I say, I would like to see a man who has pleasured his wife's clitoris the same way he's pleasured his own penis.
00:56:25
Speaker
they're fine by my My mind naturally went to stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself. Verse 29, for no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth even as the Lord, even as the Lord, the church. Okay. I accidentally clicked the King James version and I'm too stupid to read that.
00:56:49
Speaker
Ephesians 5 33 was the next one, which is enjoying genuine respect. You can enjoy genuine respect. That's a selling point. I don't know even what that means. ah But according to verse 33, it says, nevertheless, let every one of you in particular so love his wife, even as himself. That's the same as the first verse I read. And the wife sees that she's reverent by her husband.
00:57:19
Speaker
Cool. Well, God created wives. So if you think of your wife as like a delicious sandwich that you're eating, you should ask God about how he made it. Because if if someone, you' in there yeah, because if you ate a delicious meal, you'd ask who was cooked, who cooked it. And if you ate your wife as a delicious meal, you might want to, you know, look to God and ask, why was that so delicious?
00:57:50
Speaker
It's always sex with this guy. He's such a, he's so funny. I didn't say anything. Are you talking about Sam or are you talking about King James? because yeah'm talking about both of them You're misconstruing my metaphor, okay?
00:58:04
Speaker
Do you guys want to know what Mark 10, 6, 9 says about having true security? Because I can guarantee you it's probably irrelevant to the actual concept we're discussing. Read it so i can um' I need to know if I still have it memorized. Oh, yeah yeah, yeah. You're just like, no, you tell me and I'll tell you if I knew it the whole time. i Yeah.
00:58:26
Speaker
Uh, Mark tends, uh, but from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female for this cause. Shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh. So then Twain, that's a Mark Twain. They don't use that word in the Bible. So then they are no more Twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together.
00:58:54
Speaker
let no man put a sunder. And apparently that means you can have true security as a family. Does that make sense? Yeah, abuse abuse or not, abuse or not, you will be married, understand? Oh, I think you misunderstood security. I don't mean safe. I mean, you're trapped.
00:59:15
Speaker
you You're innocent your security limited amount of oxygen You are securely tied to this person that you hate and you will be securely tied to them forever Yeah, and the church will back you up no matter what awful things you do because of the rule of two It works for Sith and it works for Joe
00:59:37
Speaker
security security works for Seth see if you say it's always about sex for me but I think my biggest complaint for you is it's always about Star Wars which is your sex and I think you need to calm down Star Wars is is an allegory for the Christian walk it for sure George all right this modern-day Tolkien yeah Jeremiah would probably spit in my eyes if he heard me say that
01:00:08
Speaker
Doesn't matter. He's never doing the podcast again. Oh, so sad. And we can't even talk about why. It's a mystery for all the listeners. Sorry. Not because he doesn't want to. We'll tell you off air, but because his wife said she'll leave him if he keeps hanging out with his friends. Yeah. Now we can say anything we want because he doesn't even listen to this when he's not on it.
01:00:33
Speaker
You're supposed to be cleaving to his flesh no matter who his friends are. Did you read Mark? so Mark Twain? Mark Twain, 10. Mark Twain, 10. 10, 6 through 9. It's the one with the racial slurs, right?
01:00:54
Speaker
yeah I did go see a... um never mind i'm not going down that side road i was talking about a play that i was like yeah i'm not going that you know it doesn't matter it's uh i saw a play and the play they said the n-word it was a marked way anyway um it was uncomfortable it was at liberty let's be clear um oh my word i didn't think this was like last tuesday no no no this is this game yeah
01:01:26
Speaker
I honestly, the biggest reason I'm not going down that rabbit hole is because you ever think of a story and then you realize like two seconds into thinking about telling it that you realize you forget almost all of it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's where we're at. Remember the juicy part. So yeah, no, I mean, it's hard to forget sitting in an auditorium where they just on stage say the, I get they're trying to recreate the original material, but I was, uh,
01:01:54
Speaker
wildly uncomfortable um It's it's school policy at Liberty to make the one black person in the room very uncomfortable at every turn But it's funny because they'll keep that but then it's like ah oh We have to take the kiss out. The kiss is wildly inappropriate so so i was One time I was in a musical theatre class and the professor talked about this. She said something along the lines that like when they have like legally they have to say what's in whatever production like or like certain productions. I'm not sure which ones it applies to, but I'm assuming a lot of them.
01:02:30
Speaker
But what they can do is they can also just turn off the actor's mic so that they say it, yes, but they turn the mic off. And I'm like, the biblical legalism of like interpreting scripture of like evangelicalism applies to to theater production. like You are so consistent, but also so inconsistent. like You strike the most impossible balance, congratulations, like oh my word. Just so principled in the stupidest of ways. That's
01:03:01
Speaker
So, Luke, let's talk about your book, Shame, Sex, Attraction. Shame, Sex, Attraction. Yeah. So, ah the book is a collection of short stories written by conversion therapy survivors about their experiences in conversion therapy. The majority of the contributors are from white Christian fundamentalists and evangelical backgrounds and they're right about those contexts.
01:03:26
Speaker
um ah more often, well, actually 100% of those of authors write about those contexts, pardon me. um And then there are a few others. um There's one story from a person who was an Orthodox, ah grew up in Orthodox Jewish community ah in New York. There's one author who is, I think by and large, you know raised in a secular family. And then um one author um who was raised in what he describes as a cult. um But again, the majority are those who were raised in similar ah contexts. and so ah I have my story in there. It's the the last chapter. um it's Again, it's Gay Christian Speed Dating, which was about my group conversion therapy experience at Liberty University.
01:04:07
Speaker
um and ah Otherwise, you know you have stories from all over the US, from Australia and Canada, ah with um folks who are gay, folks who are lesbian, folks who are bi, folks who are trans, non-binary. And so there's a little bit of a lot in there and gives different representations or stories about conversion therapy. And I think part of the collection's goal was to show that conversion therapy isn't necessarily just one thing.
01:04:33
Speaker
Um, it's not necessarily what you think of when you think of maybe boy erased, uh, uh, you know, Gary Conley's experience. And by the way, Gary Conley, the author of Boy Erased writes the foreword for the book, or wrote the foreword for the book, um, which was just great. That's awesome. But yeah, you know, there's, there's multiple stories, you know, uh, in, uh, ecclesial contexts and university contexts that were, you know, again, largely religious universities, um, in family contexts and, and, you know, it runs the gamut. So.
01:05:00
Speaker
ah trying to give voice to different experiences within ah you know of conversion practices, which is oftentimes the term that's used. But of course, conversion therapy is the more ah publicly recognizable term. So that's the term that I ah go with for the title at least. How did you how did the the project come about to begin with?
01:05:22
Speaker
Well, Sam, I was in the STI clinic and I was going for my regular routine checkup and I got a message on ah ah X, the artist formerly known as Twitter, and it was this editor from this press. And I you know i remember getting the message and and and and he said, you know would you be interested in doing this book? And I was like, um this is not normal because like typically what happens for edited collections or books is that you're not solicited as the author. like public like You solicit the publisher. You go to them and like beg them to put to publish your book. And so I got this message and I was like, I immediately wondered. I was like, is this even real? like It was like so sort of like, I've never heard of this and it turned out to be real. It turned out to be this amazing publisher that's a UK publisher but has offices in the US and then you know sister companies that helped them out and just for distribution in other countries.
01:06:15
Speaker
um And yeah, it was this amazing author, pardon me, author and editor of the press, and ah they ran the gender studies and sexuality studies, or gender and sexuality series. I don't necessarily think it's studies, but I think there are some more academic things, but also more creative things. And this is much more of a creative project. It's more literary, and it's not academic, though, of course, my academic training informed it. um It's very much public facing. It's very much literary. and so ah the Editor said, would you, you know, if you're interested, cool. Let's go through the whole sort of like, um, process of getting this, you know, onboard, not onboarded, but you know, uh, officially I had to submit a proposal and then went back and forth with the editor. And then so we signed the contract and then from there, uh, yeah, when I've been working on it for the past year and a bit, and, uh, it's finally coming out on January 21st, uh, 2025. And so it's pretty exciting and I'm really excited for folks to to read it and for it to be people's hands.
01:07:12
Speaker
ah Put a happy, ah happy like tilt on the day, considering probably like all the red ink that was on your STI report. It was i it was what's an oasis in the desert, right? it was God was giving me something. I didn't have much at the time. so a by all this to say i know you but you know I thought you were just going to say, ah Casey, I thought you were going to say you know the publication date, which I think think it's the day after the inauguration.
01:07:43
Speaker
um o and so I couldn't have asked for a worse release date than this. No one's going to be taking attention to this book. They're going to be talking about everything else. That's assuming we're all still alive after liberal January 6th.
01:08:03
Speaker
maybe ah Too bad our our boy got arrested earlier. you know he Maybe he would have shown up and done some It's cleaned house Luigi Stromboli gets into the capital it's game over yeah louisiro bowl
01:08:21
Speaker
Oh my God. Luigi Rigatoni's drop bowl. So when it came to collecting essays from various people, how did you ah solicit those? How did they get narrowed down? How did you like condense it? When did you decide to stop taking stories? At what point you wanted to limit it? All that I think is really interesting.
01:08:43
Speaker
Yeah, so I have a decent network of folks who went through conversion therapy and um you know ah I think from from that, ah sort of those contacts on different social media platforms and just like posting, saying, like hey, I'm looking for stories. Is anybody interested? Would anybody you know want to write? um That was, the for the most part, how a lot of the contributors, like maybe it would happen that I knew in some way, shape, or form before. And then um there was also just you know the magic of of social media, where you you post something and ask people to retweet it. um And a number of people reached out. And it's always more people who reach out. And they're like, I'm super interested. right and then like ghost you and don't ever talk to you again. You're like, awesome. like Did I say something wrong when I followed up with my detailed instructions on what I'm looking for? um but It just turned out to be work and they weren't expecting that. Honest to goodness, I've had people who, like I send them my edits and then they, first of all, they don't follow the instructions. like Right now, I'm editing a new book and it's about queer experiences at Christian colleges, universities, and seminaries.
01:09:48
Speaker
And I send out my my instructions. like This is what I'm looking for. like I don't want you to write about your life story. I want ah i want you to write you know a snapshot. like What was it like you know in that classroom? What was it like in that professor's office? What was it like in the dorm? Whatever. And the person writes back, you know while I was in high school, and I'm like, we're starting in high school for a detailed story about like one moment at your in your university experience?
01:10:11
Speaker
and Then you respond back to like, hey, you know I read your story and it covers about six years as opposed to a day or two as like I was asking. um Could you could you you know revise this accordingly? Then they send it back and they've cut like two paragraphs and you're like, sorry, I don't know how else to say this, but like this is like simply not what I asked for. it like I've been very detailed with what I'm looking for. it's like just typically aren't reading the instructions or like, I don't know what's going on here. um It's always, ah it's such a weird experience and, you know, whatever. um But for, a you know, the editing process, I mean, you're dealing with people's really personal stories, right? Like you're dealing with, you know, in some cases, like the most difficult moments of their life um and some of the most like traumatic moments of their lives. And, you know, and a lot of authors, they will talk about that with you, obviously not in the story, but like behind, you know, by email or when you zoom, you know, to chat about
01:11:01
Speaker
what they've submitted. and you know you have to have it's It's such a balance, right? like That you're you're holding people's stories in your hands and you want to be um ah you know respectful of those stories while also really wanting them to tell the story to the best of their ability. and so It's sort of this balance and you work with people. and Again, you have to really take things slowly because a lot of people are very much you know they're they've woven themselves into the story and the story is about them. And so, you know, sometimes people can say like, well, like that that revision or that comment that you left on the story feels almost like it's targeted towards me or, you know ah you know, about me as a person. But of course, like our writing is not us. It's a function of us or it's an expression of us. And so um having to you know navigate those waters is not necessarily easy. um Although I did find it like super valuable, you know, chatting with authors behind closed doors or not behind closed doors, but like in a you Zoom room. um
01:11:54
Speaker
and what ah they you know it's It's a neat experience because you get to i hear people's really powerful stories and also you have the ability to make them even you know more you know even stronger than ah in the sense of like how they're told, not the content, but how they're told, which I think is ah is ah is a gift.
01:12:12
Speaker
Did anyone ever, like after you did your edits, um what did you ever have anyone just be like, I'm not comfortable with with that and pull the story because it couldn't be told the way they felt like it needed to? I have a story I really wanna tell and I don't know if I should tell. I didn't know if it mattered if there were no names, but i if you don't feel like it's appropriate, that's okay.
01:12:36
Speaker
I'll give a story. I'll give like a very general story. I wish I could give more details, but this was literally Like by the end of it, the police were involved by the end of it. Like I was emailing my my my i ah editor and it was like, and and I've never had anything like this. Like I taught for, I don't know how long did I teach like 10 years or so? And I had some like crazy stories and stories that like were so uncomfortable. And like, I was like, how and is this my life? Like this is what I'm dealing with. And I eventually, you know, I just have, I don't teach anymore.
01:13:11
Speaker
But um this, you know, you have a similar dynamic in some senses, and but not really. Like I hope that no one who ever submits their stories to me ever thinks that like I'm some sort of like authority or anything like that. I'm i'm simply like an editor um and their opinions just as valid as mine and ultimately it just turns into a conversation if there's any disagreement.
01:13:30
Speaker
Um, but some people really do treat you, you know, it's like, you know, very sort of like deferentially. I don't really understand it, but it's, you know, whatever that's, and that was of course the experience when, when teaching, you know, university and colleges.
01:13:43
Speaker
and When I, oh my word, I had this experience where this person sent me something back and it was just this like huge red flag um and like almost like literally, but like anyway, it was a figurative red flag and it was just this like really bizarre,
01:14:04
Speaker
resubmission. They resubmitted it with a photo attached. And I was just like, what the hell? like What do I do with this? And so I responded back. I said, hey, I couldn't help but notice the photo that you had pasted over top of your submission like where I couldn't read your work because this photo was literally obscuring the writing. I said, do you want to talk about anything? And the person that, I still have the email, and it is literally one of the most wild rides I've ever been on.
01:14:33
Speaker
And he started saying that he hated me and he hated me deeply. like It wasn't just like, I dislike you, but I hate you. And the reason why I hate you is because I envy you so much. And I'm like, sir, do you have any, like ah like what's the word, accurate represent like understanding of my life? Because if you did, you probably wouldn't be envying me so much. But okay. So he's saying, like I hate you, I envy you. he He started saying like things like, I wish I could have my fun in the sun.
01:14:58
Speaker
like let's qui on like And then he was like, telling other people that are saying, like referencing other people, he's like, I know this person that you know, and I had sex with them recently, and we both know you. And I just i'm so i hate you both. And I was like, what? What is going on? And like why are you offering all these really like just like... details that don't seem to connect, but it was this. Anyway, so he sends this back and then I was like, of course I'm not going to email this person back and like, you know, sort of like play into this. Um, and then like a week later he emails me and he's like, Hey, sorry about that email. Would you still be considered? Would you still pass it off by peace? And I was like,
01:15:34
Speaker
Sorry, in what world would I consider your piece? like And then I just didn't respond. And then he continued to email me. And it was like you would say like was essentially saying, like it's really hurtful that you're not responding to me. And I was like, who all lied to this person and told him that like this is how you can act. And then you're you know whoever that your point of contact is, whether it is like your editor or otherwise, and think that there's going to be like redemption or like round two. like Sorry. but i'll I'll read you the full email later. It's it's just wild. That's your Stan moment. Well, that was the thing. i was like he wass like i'm so i'm I'm jealous of your life and I'm like, what about my life? like like I don't and don't have anything that's ultimately that exceptional. like you know what i mean like i like What about it? like There's nothing that like glamorous about my life. like
01:16:25
Speaker
Okay. But again, I think that like this just i mean in part speaks to like social media and what people imagine your life to be based on like you know the seven photos you post a week on your stories and grid. like i just I think to myself, like i don't think I think I'm pretty self-deprecating and like make fun of myself. I didn't realize that I was giving off this air. like I have anything to write hope about. like i mean I love my life. My life's great. I love it, but I don't think it's that sort of like exceptional in the literal sense of the word.
01:16:51
Speaker
yeah I'd sure like to frolic on the beach with a bunch of mustachioed beefcakes. yeah Yeah, I'll never forget. He said, ah yeah youre you're you're fun in the sun. And I was like, fun in the sun? Why did you put that? like Edit, sir. like Anyway, it was just it was an absolute gong show. Bizarre. But that, again, it gave me too many details, but it was just this bizarre response.
01:17:15
Speaker
You know, most most people are fine with the edits I give. Like, most most people sort of, like, appreciate, you know, the a different perspective. Whereas, I didn't even think it was a matter of editing. I think it was just a matter of... i don't really I don't know what it was a matter of, to be honest. It was just a very weird and uncomfortable experience. Yeah, it was like someone's manic episode. ah to To show up, like, a ah later and say, oh, hey, sorry about that last email. LOL, I was a little unhinged. Sorry, my bad. You're like, no, no, no.
01:17:46
Speaker
You need help. Never talk to me again. I don't feel safe with you. Some people never understand that like, sorry doesn't erase what you said. Like, sorry is just a, okay, I'm willing to like, just make peace with that, I guess, you know? But like, some people treat it as it's like a reset button, like, ah, we're starting over. Yeah. No, no, we're not. I'm ah very afraid of you.
01:18:15
Speaker
This left me deeply uncomfortable. I i don't know. like i mean Here's the thing, like I can understand and appreciate that you know folks have gone through some stuff in their lives, but also a lot of us have. right like A lot of us have had really, really difficult experiences and we're not out there sending emails like that. you know like It's just not the way things work. and it was just It was so bizarre, like wild.
01:18:38
Speaker
Dude, i would that would be terrifying. I would feel like, especially when they're like, I've had sex with someone you've had sex with. I'm like, this guy knows where I live at this point. Might mine as well. Like, you're one degree of separation away from murdering this shit out of me. I have questions like my wife. He's like, uh, we've had sex with the same person and I had sex with him first and Elmer towns.
01:19:03
Speaker
I do have an FBI. It was Elmer Towns the whole time. Is that what you can't tell us? It was the founder, the co-founder of LU. He's like ever since that first time when you wouldn't be completely honest about what you did that weekend when I asked.
01:19:22
Speaker
Yeah. He's been, yeah he was place he is, uh, there, the, uh, I was rewatching. I think you should leave, uh, last week. And there's that sketch where, um, will Forte is on a plane and he finds it. He sits next to this couple and he starts being really, really weird. He's like this old guy with the skull it going on. And he he starts telling about how like 30 years ago.
01:19:52
Speaker
He was on a plane going on the trip of his life and the guy who was sitting next to him was a baby and he cried and screamed the entire flight and it ruined it so bad that he's been trying to figure out a way to get on the same flight as him ever since. And then it's like they take off and he just starts like wow wow in his ear and he's going to try and pretend to cry the entire flight to ruin that guy's flight as like some sick revenge. And I feel like that is the guy that you're connecting with somehow. Like something happened years ago and he's back and he's trying to, he needs to get- Just desserts. Yep. That's it. Just desserts.
01:20:38
Speaker
Man. ah So I guess I'm kind of curious as to like, you know, the idea that like conversion therapy is not just one thing that, that everyone would recognize, like what are, what's, what's like a totally different version of it or one that surprised you or one that you think people are just completely unaware of that comes out in the book.
01:21:00
Speaker
Yeah, so a lot of recent research on the topic has been about um conversion practice, is is expanding the definition or expanding the term. So instead of saying conversion therapy where you know you have a counselor or a therapist, whether they're licensed or unlicensed, you know credentialed or otherwise.
01:21:15
Speaker
um and saying instead of conversion therapy, you're calling it conversion practices. And so conversionionsion conversion practices are quite broad and they can they constitute a number of things. So it's either explicit or implicit, right like verbally said or sort of like implied or nonverbal, um ways of correcting, quote unquote, or straightening someone out, um whether it be in regards to their sexuality or their gender identity or gender expression.
01:21:42
Speaker
And so, you know like I think a lot of people have undergone conversion practices. And of course, like I'm not trying to broaden the term so far that like it goes to literally everyone, because it can also include if we really were to allow, I guess in some ways allow for it. like It could apply also to to straight people too, where like you know if you're a straight you know little boy, but your gender expression, like you you know you're crossing your legs in a way that your dad doesn't like, you know that someone could argue that that's a conversion practice. And I'm not trying to go that far.
01:22:11
Speaker
But what I will say is that for queers in general, like conversion practices like structure our or lived reality in so many ways. And you know again, if you have ah if you do have a father and you're a young gay guy or a young lesbian gal and you know your parents are saying, don't sit like that, don't act like that, don't do that, don't talk like that, those messages do accumulate over time. And oftentimes it's in a very like um sort of like system like systemic and also systematic way ah that people are trying to correct individuals, quote unquote, again, correcting everything, everything about conversion therapy and everything about evangelicalism. I feel like I have to put in quotation marks and like correct and like deviant and like whatever, um like struggling with same sex attraction, like everything in there is just ridiculous. Conversion therapy, therapy, convert, like anyway.
01:22:54
Speaker
so I think they um what I think maybe some people wouldn't necessarily think of as as conversion practices are, again, like family dynamics, where you know i I was lucky. I lived in the family. like Growing up, my my parents didn't give two hoots how I acted, um because I acted like a little queen. right like I was a big old you know homosexual child right like from a young age, and it was so clear to everyone but my mom. and I think my dad knew. My my dad um just didn't give a ...
01:23:22
Speaker
He didn't care. like That wasn't what he was concerned with. He was concerned with you know whether or not I won my chess match when I you know was the captain of the chess team. It was a super cool at elementary school. know but you know and He also wasn't concerned about that either. He just wanted me to have fun. All this to say, my dad my parents were great in that sense. where like They didn't really try anything. um but i you know Some parents, um especially for trans kids, right like where parents are saying, you know, like, oh, even like, I'm okay with you being queer, but now you want to get top surgery? Like, I just don't think you should do that. Like, and this is one of the stories that's included where the mother um has, you know, too much to say ah to their child. And and again, it's this this constant messaging that I think can to be understood in certain senses as as a conversion practice, right? Or as conversion practices that again accumulate over time.
01:24:08
Speaker
And so constantly just trying to get you know their kid to act or be a certain way. And of course, the operative route here is to act. right For those who are queer, we act a certain way. For those who are straight, we act a certain way. And again, there's a whole spectrum you know of how folks act. But ultimately, um all of us should act according to how we, or should should sort of like just be who we are. But of course, a lot of queer kids feel the need to act. They feel the need to perform because they're told they have to.
01:24:33
Speaker
And so when you're told you have to and said you have to act this way and you have to perform according to this you know script of masculinity or femininity, these are what we would perhaps call conversion practices that I think go beyond the traditionally held understanding of what we think of when we think of conversion therapy. Dang, it's time to stop ordering Fresca.
01:24:51
Speaker
ah she
01:24:55
Speaker
No, that that is all really interesting. i think um It's even your comparison to like, Oh, don't sit like that. Don't be like when you think of just the messaging that you get, like as, um, and like I'm not making any comparisons here. Like I just, but there's such, that is a broad spectrum, right? Like when you think of the messaging you get in evangelicalism, um,
01:25:19
Speaker
of just like right now it's still I'm seeing I still see it all over social media of like these like like bro ass macho fuckface pastors who are just like ah like there was a a video like that just had its viral moment of like this pastor talking about how like true masculinity is you shave your beard right we've been hearing the opposite for so long and you're just like oh you gotta to have a beard you gotta be rugged you can't trim your pubes you have to not wear deodorant like it's like you could say whatever you want you can be like you have to be a stinky piece of shit that's how god designed it like but then like sky comes out and you now he's doing this whole like
01:26:00
Speaker
like I don't know what it's based on but it was just you shouldn't have a beard and you just go what are you what are we doing like it's it's so all these ideas of like a guy on at a pulpit telling everybody what the ideal version of humanity is based on their stupid ass like understanding of the Bible is like it's it's very prevalent in Even outside of the scope of conversion practices, right? You still just get like but the the the constant influx of messaging and evangelicalism about like how you're supposed to live. ah And then you can go to another church and you might hear a different thing, but then they all act like they're all like the ones who figured it out. It's really
01:26:48
Speaker
um confusing in general as a person, uh, growing up in that world. So then you exacerbate that, right? You add in, um, gender ah identity and sexual orientation. And it's like, it just, it just compounds after that, right? It just, it doubles down on damaging messaging that has an impact on your development.
01:27:10
Speaker
Well, I just love it because there's so many things within, um you know, conversion therapy, or evangelicalism, been the new or the New Christian right more broadly where they have these understandings of masculinity and femininity. And I think right now we're in this like huge funny phase of flipping the script of what it looks like to be, you know, looks like to be a man um because, you know, for a long time, baggy clothing.
01:27:34
Speaker
um sort of like like you know like rectangular shapes, like not like form-fitting clothing, um has always been considered very straight. you know guys like That's what straight men wear. They wear sweatpants, they wear hoodies, you know they wear whatever. and Then in the city right now, what what we're in like go to any major city, go to New York, go to Toronto, go to Sao Paulo, whatever.
01:27:53
Speaker
you'll see these guys who are wearing like, what is it, Carhartt, the brand, or like, you know, like they're wearing like a slipknot shirts or like really things that historically historically were were considered like basketball jerseys, you know, that were considered very masculine that, you know, or like like construction uniforms for some reason are in right now. And you know it's all these like like overalls, like thick you know overalls. And like these are all things that like gay men 10 years ago wouldn't have touched. but And these were all considered very sort of like masculine. Whereas now, this is what a lot of gay guys are wearing. And what you're finding in the cities, again, is the switching of of of how people are dressing. And straight men are now shaving their legs. you know They're out there wearing tight pants, tight shirts. And I i say now, I look at you know a straight men, and I'm like, they're so gay. like Look how gay they are. right like It's just so wild. and Then you see all the queers wearing just this ill-fitting, poorly constructed, like you know oversized whatever. and like this is like again but According to conversion therapy or like you know the way of thinking about gender is that you're supposed to align with what it means to be a capital M masculine man, which of course is to relate to God whose nature is unchanging.
01:29:03
Speaker
But of course what we see within the the wider culture, when you know all culture is of course a bad word um within these circles, um is that like obviously gender is so fluid and it just changes depending on perhaps the decade or whatever, um the year even. and it's like I love it because there's this insistence upon sort of like conformity to the standard, but the standard's always changing and yet they, they again, they presuppose that everything's based on an internal model.
01:29:28
Speaker
and is clearly not and like God obviously is changing according to culture and culture is changing according to God like it's just hilarious to watch from the sidelines at this point obviously not being a part of it and just eating my popcorn like it's just like you absolute clowns like you are a bunch of clowns yeah dude totally it it is it's like the constant changing of what is like heteronormative is So even this guy saying like men don't have beards, it's like there was a time where that was true. Like if you were in business and you were worked at a bank, like if you worked at any like, quote unquote prestigious job, like part of the dress code was you wear your three piece suit and you shave your goddamn face like a man. And then like,
01:30:13
Speaker
culture shifts and then they're the usually though the prestigious jobs are the last ones to flip they're like I guess I guess you could have a tattoo now but you it can't be seen your sleeves do have to cover it but will at least hire you or yeah I guess you could have a little bit of stubble like it's it's always changing and within that culture there's an evangelical pastor always just like pounding his fist on a podium telling people exactly what they need to look like, because that's what men do. Luke, if you want to be out or a meat mustache, I can help you get ahead of some of this like masculinity trends. I feel OK. Hear me out because i I sometimes think like, why don't I should just lean in to something?
01:31:01
Speaker
Like I should just fully lean into blue collar cosplay and like only do Carhartt stuff or whatever. I think you should lean in and just start like a whole movement of gays who open carry.
01:31:17
Speaker
I'm a trendsetter. yeah You're a revolver guy too, like a big shiny revolver yeah on your hip. Big, dirty, hairy. Yeah. Maybe a big knife on the other side. Dude, there's something there. Also incredibly hot when you're at a bar and you take your piece out, you just put it on the fucking counter and you just start polishing it. You're just polishing your weapon. That might work in the favelas. I can see it. See you again. See you again. That might work in the favelas, you know.
01:31:52
Speaker
Well, you know what, I was thinking when you said you were just gonna lean into Carhartt, I said, Casey, you should come to any gay bar in any major city and I think you will be a hit.
01:32:05
Speaker
Somebody wanted to grab that teapot by the handle. Maybe that maybe that that should be an upcoming GUC episode. Sam, it's like ah give it the old Always Sunny title. Sam and Casey go to a gay bar, whatever. luke Luke takes Sam and Casey to their first gay bar, you know? I would love of i would love a documentation of of that event. I think it would be so fun.
01:32:35
Speaker
I think that will happen eventually. i it will One of these days we'll all be in the same place at the same time and you'll ah you'll take us to town. what ah we It's tough. i mean Massachusetts, Kansas, Brazil. One of these days we'll find ourselves in the same place at the same time though. And we will all become Christians again because only God can orchestrate something so beautiful. Luke's like doing the Aladdin thing. he's like I can show you the world.
01:33:05
Speaker
I teach you how to be gay. I've changed you overnight. And I mean, how cool would that be for you? If like your next book was that you actually can, it was gay conversion therapy, but like not how you, it with a twist, like you converted us to being gay. That would be so sick dude. Dude, if my wife's not gay, the outer is a bigot.
01:33:28
Speaker
okay
01:33:34
Speaker
but I feel like a buddy comedy might be in our future. i down I'm fully down. This sounds like a yeah ah success story waiting to happen.
01:33:46
Speaker
my ass so Okay, last last thing here. um Because I was thinking today about Like some of the early, you know, those first times we had John and you talked about like your experience with conversion therapy and like, you know, sitting in Dane Emmerich's office and stuff and talking about like your stumbles. Um, could we, could we like roleplay this scenario? You be Dane Emmerich and I'd be like, okay I'll be young Luke.
01:34:20
Speaker
Oh man, I need to talk and like a faltering voice. Do you remember his voice? How do you do his voice? Oh man, because he was such a grandpa. He was such a... It's like he put a fair gun on his Adam's apple. There was a ferret inside of his throat or something. I don't know, yeah. He is the like, concave neighbor from Family Guy.
01:34:44
Speaker
Yeah, I was like that high faltering voice. Oh, man. Yeah, well, you know what? If we were to do this role-play, I mean, like part of it would be that I'd have to put like my warm hands on your body at certain points throughout the the session, mostly in the beginning and the end. Because he used to always do this. He would give you this like massive bear hug in the beginning and a massive bear hug at the end.
01:35:07
Speaker
And then he would also like, whenever you prayed, would either put his hands on your shoulder or your leg. And like, as one person I talked to, he described it, he's like, it wasn't like so far up your leg, like he was like touching, touching underwear or anything like that. But like, it was enough to be like, that's weird. Like, you were always like, why?
01:35:27
Speaker
This seems like this doesn't really make sense, but of course, like within evangelicalism, personal boundaries aren't a thing, so you're used to this. and so I always just sort of conceptualized it as him. um It's like him showing me like good touch, bad touch, like what you do with a child, but his way of modeling it.
01:35:43
Speaker
but it's funny like eating that in gay chicken what What's what's the what's the the ideal spot to have your leg touched? Because obviously you go up too far and you go, that's weird. But you go too low and you're like, dude, why are you holding onto my calf?
01:36:00
Speaker
Like that Dane Emmerich or anybody? and I mean, Dane, anyone. If someone's just, Luke, they put their hand on you. Like, I feel like just above the knee is the only appropriate place. If you go below the knee, you're just, that doesn't make sense. And then you think you might be getting murdered. You go too high. You think you're going to get sexually assaulted. And there's no, there's not a lot of spots on the leg that you can touch and have it not get weird. If you want to get, if I'm touching my leg right now,
01:36:29
Speaker
pardon me it I was just thinking I, you know, if I was, if I was sitting down with Sam, I wanted to get his attention. I'd just reach right up his skirt and flick him in the fallopian too, you know, heads up, brother. Try tested in true tactic.
01:36:49
Speaker
i'm I'm feeling my leg right now and I don't, I don't. I mean, it's it's such a weird thing to touch anyone it's so on the leg when you're one-on-one and it's like a supposedly like, because he never he never framed himself as therapeutic. He never framed himself, as but he was ah camp like a campus pastor. So like, you know, at least when I was there. um and and And so like for you to touch anyone, like again, it's like so evangelical but and it's so normalized within evangelicalism just to like touch people against their will or like without asking if that's okay. um But yeah, looking back again, again, I'm just trying to think of like the the age difference, like the context, like the power imbalance, of so many things. I don't think there's anywhere that i I would like Dan Ammer to touch then or now. you know like We don't need to touch.
01:37:38
Speaker
Yeah, just sit sit on opposite ends of the desk. Yeah, it is weird. So even like in my, you know, going through my grad program to as an adjustment counselor, I have a lot of classes on like, you know, therapeutic ah conduct. And ah none of that requires touching other people's legs when they're sitting next to you in an intimate environment. Shoulder? Sure. Shoulder. Hey.
01:38:05
Speaker
depending on the rapport, it's, hey, but like, I don't, I think that's maybe, that's probably where it stops. Like, hey, it's going to be all right. A little shoulder grab, it's going to be all right, depending on who you're working with or talking to. But like, yikes. I can't imagine any situation where in an environment like that, like I even, ah again, like my, with my job working in a school, I'm like, there are just times where I'm like, I don't,
01:38:35
Speaker
kid, like when I first started working there, it's an elementary school, kindergarten, first graders. These are very young kids. They go, there are times where kids would be like, can I have a hug? And I just want to be like, yeah don't touch me, get away from me. Like, because you just don't want anything. And then you like after working there for a couple years, you know, you walk by the hall.
01:38:53
Speaker
like down the hall, the kids are all like, oh, can I have a hug? Yeah, sure. When they give you a little hug, it's fine. It's not, it is normal. I'm sure Dane wasn't touching the legs on day one either. yeah but Yeah. But it is, it's like, it was so off putting and I was like so like taken aback by it, but it's just like the idea.
01:39:14
Speaker
Like, have you guys watched Shrinking, the show Shrinking? It's an Apple TV show. And it revolves around a group of therapists. And one of them is kind of trying ah unconventional practices that become problematic. But they there's a couple of there's several jokes throughout it where it's like, ah where patient tries to like kiss their therapist.
01:39:38
Speaker
Uh, and they're like, Oh yeah, that's happened to me. Like ah several, Oh yeah, that's happened before. Like, cause the, I, I mean, within the the context of that situation, like would, like people are telling you fucking everything about their life and being vulnerable and you're receiving it in a nonjudgmental context and you're just allowing them to exist and be themselves. And that can create that. That's something that comes up in some of the, like some of my classes too. It's like that can.
01:40:09
Speaker
That could create a situation where someone feels a thing that's the needs to that requires ending ah your work with that person where they would need to go see a new therapist and because that's what intimate environments do like if you're if you're allowed to be that vulnerable um that can make create situations like that. So I think I like the way the show handles that in a comedic way. um But then you have places like Liberty where it's it's not only um it's it's not like this. It's kind of cultivated, right? Like I'm I'm going to actually try to do what ah I'm going to do more to to create this attachment that is might be inappropriate.
01:40:57
Speaker
um In a in a pastoral sense, which sounds like even saying anything in pastoral sense sounds creepy But it's like oh, let me put my hand on your leg. Let me do like I'm just doing this as like your spiritual like Father or some shit like it just it gets weird and it's so inappropriate and in the problem with like the Christian environment or quote-unquote Christian therapy where you don't get a real you you don't you're not a real therapist you're not licensed with the state you don't have guidelines you have you you enter into this world where like there are there are no guardrails for that kind of a power dynamic uh and they're often um manipulated for the purpose of this is my problem with like christian shit is like it's intentionally manipulated to
01:41:49
Speaker
change the thought processes of the person you're working with instead of helping them discover their own path. It's trying to find it for them. So it's so manipulative. It's the the the more I've learned and studied in my field, the more I've grown to just hate and despise what they do ah in a quote unquote therapeutic setting in evangelical culture, which is it just primes you for ah but It's just priming for manipulation and manipulative tactics.
01:42:22
Speaker
yeah I feel like, you know, you were saying like the the person who's receiving therapy, oftentimes there's that attachment where they go for their the therapist, but I feel like in evangelical context, it's the opposite. The opposite, yeah. This is my opportunity. You're like, what? Like, no. And then, you know, the rest is herstory, but dear Lord, yeah. You're faster dating a... Wildly predatory. A student. Oh, yeah. We just really connected. It's like, no, you didn't. Like you don't...
01:42:47
Speaker
Yeah, she's 17. You did that. you You forced that. Just an old old-fashioned... She has Stockholm Syndrome, dude. Like this... yeah Yeah. Fuck. Okay, real quick, let's... Can we roleplay this out? so Yes. I'm sitting down in your office. Jay-Z wants you to make him gay so bad right now, Luke. Yeah, I just want to give him a shot at least.
01:43:13
Speaker
That makes two of us.
01:43:18
Speaker
Okay. ah Hey, thanks for seeing me, Dr. Emmerich. Well, first of all, I'm not a doctor. I'm not credentialed. and i but I wanted to be honest. I wanted to be honest with you, Casey, because honesty is the best policy. ah What I'd like to start with, if you wouldn't mind, is recounting, again, ah your slip ups from this week and last week, the ones you've already told me, but I'd like to hear them at least one more time. With more DP.
01:43:53
Speaker
well All right, how to describe this. I think you left out how big your load actually was in ounces.
01:44:04
Speaker
So wet dream kind of connotates sleep. So we'll call it, we'll call these things I've been having damp daydreams about that. um And it's a, it's a scenario that replays itself over and over. Okay. I'll kind of give you a generalized version of it, but Um, usually I find myself in a, in, in this scenario in a public place. Right. Um, for instance, you know, today it was, uh, while I was in the waiting room, waiting for disappointment, I was thinking about being at the zoo. Okay. Uh, we're standing in front of like, but you know, the elephant pen. Uh, there's a whole group of, of kids there, you know, i on a field trip.
01:44:50
Speaker
And, you know, everybody knows the, you know, like the, the classic stereotype of the, like, uh, the trench coat wearing flasher. Right. Yeah. Comes up, exposes himself to everybody. Cause he, okay. Cause this is a little unconventional. I feel like it's part sexual. It's part hero fantasy, but okay. I out of the corner of my eye, I see this cop tran true way too much.
01:45:15
Speaker
he's approaching this group of kids on the field trip, right? Casey, I'm going to stop here for one second. Describe his musculature. Well, the first thing I noticed about him, I mean, he seems slender. He seems Italian, big smile, hooded, ah carrying something that looks to be a gun in his in his pocket, but... Hooded in his pants? Or what kind of hooded are we talking about? Are we referring to it? We're just seeing some specifics here. All types of hooded, you know? for You know me, I like detail. Triple hooded.
01:45:53
Speaker
So i I see this trench coat man walking up, and I notice immediately he's not wearing socks. All right? Dead giveaway, right? And I'm thinking, well if he's wearing pants, they're awfully short, right? And he's approaching this group, and I think, oh my god, he's a flasher. He's going to expose himself to these kids. So I sprint. Think $6 million dollar man. that
01:46:25
Speaker
Right as he's opening the trench coat, I just latch on. Saving everyone from seeing this man's exposed genitals. I get it. Okay. I've got him in the bear trap now. What's that? What's going on with the balls, though? I know I'm not part of this roleplay, but it's all in. Oh, all of it. Can't be shown people. This is a real mouthful of a story. yeah Now at this point, it's kind of like, uh, you know, I got the tiger by the tail, right? So I can't let him go. I can't trust this guy to walk out with me here. Right. I got a, so I, I latch my forearms around the backs of his knees, pick him up, still completely covered. And I walked to the police station.
01:47:15
Speaker
I just carry him to the cops, right? And the police, how did they how do they factor into the this whole rendezvous? They pat me on the back pretty hard and I cough and then into the cell he goes, right? Nothing left with the cleanup. And where did where did the cuffs go after that? Were you a bad boy too?
01:47:40
Speaker
he i can't even knowing cops probably so they probably arrested both yeah yeah i mean they did rescue for giving a man fellatio for three miles to get to the police station yeah suck i'm pretty sure That's a crime dude and and Yeah, it's kind of like ah you know, he's not the hero we need the hero we deserve sort of know yeah ah That you take the blame
01:48:19
Speaker
Yeah. You described your nocturnal emission, and I see this more so as a nocturnal admission. a Confession, if you will. um So I want to thank you for that, and ah I think we should pray, and I think I should hold your... daughter I mean, I should hold your... like I mean, I should touch... I mean, let's pray. Oh, I ruined another pair of corduroy. God damn it. Oh, my God.
01:48:47
Speaker
Oh, thank you for enjoying. I was thinking about that all the way home today. I was like, yeah, this is such a, that would be such a great scenario.
01:48:57
Speaker
Trenchcoat mafia meets, yeah, public sex offender meets Dean Emmerich. I feel like you had probably several, re like, like several renditions of it. You, you starred.
01:49:08
Speaker
on one path and you're like, no, no, no, we could make this better. And you had an hour. You're just like, no podcasts, no music. How do I? All right. Okay. No, that won't work. What if, no, what if I shove them all the way inside of my mouth and walk three miles to the, that that could work. Do you want me to write that down for your next book?
01:49:30
Speaker
I would love that. I would love, a again, a little more, in the in the spirit of Dan Emmerich, a little more detail. Your next book is just going to be gay conversion fantasy stories. It's like a it's like it's like a fan fiction version of the book that you're releasing. It's like a way of working through my my past experiences in a way that's productive. you know i think I think this is the only way forward. It's like a campier, gayer, Fifty Shades of Grey.
01:49:59
Speaker
Yeah. suppose That's it. Fifty Shades of Gay. Perfect. That's your next book, dude. Oh, Dude, it's always great talking to you. Thanks so much for ah for joining us. You guys are the best. Love you, mean it, and can't wait to chat again soon. Yeah, we love you too. Where can people get the book?
01:50:20
Speaker
you can get it If you're in the States, ah what is it? Oh my gosh, I should know these things. a um What is it, Bookshop, the website? I think it's Bookshop. Otherwise, you can get it anywhere on Amazon. That's what I will say. um But I know that Amazon's the devil, so a lot of people look for alternatives. and It is Bookshop dot.org, yeah.
01:50:42
Speaker
But otherwise Amazon, you can pre-order there. It'll be released on January 21st. And there are ah there are other websites, you know, um Barnes and Noble and Indigo and Canada and all that kind of stuff. But ah Amazon is probably the easiest spot that people can locate it. Okay, cool. Is there like an upside for you to go through one retailer and instead of another?
01:51:05
Speaker
You know, I think that there's the upside is for Bookshop that it it supports local bookstores, which is phenomenal. It has nothing to do with me. um But, you know, for Amazon, I mean, Amazon sort of, you know, well, it is ubiquitous and people use like Amazon reviews in some ways to ah you know, help authors. But, um, I, I mean, if anywhere wants, someone wants to leave a review, I realized this, you know, and this is what, of course, like you guys know, this is podcasters, you know, for people to leave a review and a rating, it's so helpful. And this is exactly the same thing. And so anyone who reads it and wants to share it on social media or tag me and anything, or, you know, leave a review, that kind of stuff. It's so, so, so helpful. Excellent. Can do. Well, very much looking forward to it. Again, thanks for coming on.
01:51:53
Speaker
Everybody thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.