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Amber Bites Big with Astrud Burgess, Group Chief Marketing Officer at ANZ bank
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In Episode 18 of BITE BIG, I sat down with Astrud Burgess, Group Chief Marketing Officer at ANZ, to unpack the mindset, mantra and marketing savvy behind her powerhouse leadership.
Astrud’s journey from the retail floor to the C-suite is anything but typical. Starting as a graduate at ANZ, her path has spanned continents, industries, and disciplines, from media and telco in London to transforming customer experience, brand, and data strategy back home. Now, as Group CMO, Astrud is proving that creative instinct and commercial impact are not mutually exclusive.
Her mantra? “Optimise for joy.” A deceptively simple philosophy that drives how she leads, how she works, and how she stays sane in a high-pressure world.
👑 Boss Takeaways from Episode 18 with Astrud:
- “Optimise for joy.” It’s not about chasing happiness, it’s about choosing the work that energises you, builds momentum, and lets you play to your strengths.
- Embrace job kleptomania, mindfully. Astrud owns her love of saying yes to big opportunities, but with one caveat: it has to serve joy, not just busyness.
- Creative empathy is a leadership superpower. Whether leading data teams or developing brand platforms, Astrud blends logic with intuition and consistently backs her team with trust.
- Longevity in agency partnerships pays off. Her 12-year relationship with ANZ’s creative agency proves that trust, listening, and curiosity lead to bold, effective work.
- Brand is your trust engine. Especially in industries under public scrutiny, brand isn’t fluff, it’s foundational. And when done well, it lifts every other comms piece in market.
- Intuition = a personal data set. For a leader driven by evidence, Astrud still champions the value of gut instinct, because decades of experience is data, too.
- Help women take up space. From mentoring young marketers to advocating for financial literacy, Astrud is helping more women step up, take risks, and thrive.
🔗 Follow BITE BIG for more unfiltered stories from women who lead big—one mantra at a time.
Links:
Astrud LinkedIn
ANZ Website
ANZ Instagram
Orange Sky NZ
Amber's Instagram
Amber's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's Instagram
CREDITS
Host & ECD – Amber Bonney, The Edison Agency Founder
Producer – Niki Beeston, Group Account Director, The Edison Agency
Marketing – Liz Archer, Head of Operations, The Edison Agency
Social Assets – Alyssa Payad, Intern, The Edison Agency
Post Production – Francine Toscano, 17th Street Audio
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Transcript
Acknowledgement and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
On behalf of the Bite Big team, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are recording on today, the Boon Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation. We recognise that with over 60,000 years of experience, First Peoples of Australia are most definitely the original storytellers, designers and artists this country, and we pay our respect to their elders past, present and emerging.
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello, before we get stuck into this episode of Bite Big, let me tell you a little bit about who the hell I am and why this content is important to me. My name's Amber Bonney and for the past 25 years, I've been reshaping iconic Australian and international brands, helping them stay relevant, get noticed and be remembered in the good kind of way.
00:00:47
Speaker
I'm a passionate feminist and committed to advocating for better representation of women in senior creative and marketing roles, which is why this podcast is proudly brought to you by my business, The Edison Agency.
00:01:00
Speaker
If your brand or organisation needs help aligning your vision to your reputation, then you can find us at www.edison.agency you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Let's get into it.
Guest Introduction: Astrid Burgess
00:01:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Season 3, Episode 18 of Bite Big, the unapologetic podcast for women who lead with guts, grit and game-changing ideas. I'm your host, Amber Bonney, founder of the Edison Agency, and today we're joined by a true boss of brand and data, Group Chief Marketing Officer at ANZ, Astrid Burgess. Welcome, Astrid.
00:01:35
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for getting on a plane to be here. Really appreciate it it Now you're going to have to sit awkwardly while I talk through some of your incredible
Astrid's Career Journey
00:01:43
Speaker
accomplishments. So enjoy, take a sip of your coffee. Astrid's rise the top didn't start in the boardroom. It began on the retail floor as a graduate at ANZ.
00:01:51
Speaker
From there, her career took her to London media and the telco scene before returning to ANZ to lead everything from brand and customer experience to data and cs CX across Australia and New Zealand.
00:02:02
Speaker
In 2023... She was appointed group CMO and she has not looked back. She's been the force behind ANZ's We Do How platform, blending analytics with empathy, purpose with performance and racking up majority industry recognition along the way. And I am going to list out some of these.
00:02:18
Speaker
Effective Marketer of the Year in 2023, the FE Awards gold winner at the APAC Awards. for your Good Energy Home Loan campaign, bronze at the 2024 IPA Effectiveness Awards and Asia Pacific Power List 2024 Campaign Asia. That is quite the list.
00:02:36
Speaker
um There were actually a lot more. That's a very curated list. Your leadership proves that customer-centric creativity and commercial smarts can and should be central to great leadership. So let's get into it and unpack what makes Astrid Burgess a boss woman leading big.
00:02:50
Speaker
All right. Now the premise of this, as you know, Astrid, we talk about your mantra, what has guided you throughout your career. Now, sometimes for people, they've had to think of something on the spot or they've had to dig a little bit deep to think, you know, what is my mantra? The sentiment of Bite Big is based on my mantra, Bite Big and Chew Like Hell, which does get me in trouble often, but has also led to some great achievements.
00:03:13
Speaker
Now, if it's okay, I'll read yours out and then just really want to unpack that.
Finding Joy in Work
00:03:17
Speaker
Optimize for joy, a reminder to not become focused on goals at the expense of enjoying today. Tell us about that.
00:03:24
Speaker
Okay. So i i haven't had this for long, but I'm really focused on it now. And I think it's a little bit of ah a life philosophy, actually. In that one of my um weaknesses is I'm a bit of a job kleptomaniac. So I'm sort of got four jobs at the moment.
00:03:42
Speaker
And sometimes I'm just so excited by the work that I keep putting my hand up. Optimise for joy means, you know, why are you doing this? And will it bring you joy?
00:03:54
Speaker
And try not to just always put your hand up regardless of the thing. Think about the things that you're really good at and where you can make an impact. So that's the reminder to myself.
00:04:05
Speaker
I love that. um that The job kleptomaniac is definitely going on a T-shirt. So what does this look like day to day How does that show up? It shows up in a number of ways. I think about it myself. Like one way it shows up is when you look at your diary in the morning and you're trying to figure out what's your day going to look like.
00:04:22
Speaker
And I always look at mine and when I've got one on one time with my team, then I really feel a lot of joy because I look forward to those conversations. Or if people are updating me on a project, if we're doing something creative, if we're trying to solve a problem, then then I feel all the joy.
00:04:39
Speaker
When i don't feel so much joy is when I do things that push me out of my comfort zone, like podcasts. Podcasts, yes. And sometimes big presentations and nerves and and all of those things. So it's really about a focus on doing what is really good because often what's good is where you're at your best.
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah. And how does that balance with, I suppose, putting yourself intentionally into uncomfortable situations like this? I think there's a joy in having finished things, right? Achieving the achievement. Yeah. So my my gym going mantra is you never regret exercising.
00:05:19
Speaker
yeah And I say that to myself all the time when I don't feel like going to the gym. And optimising for joy is not about avoiding pain because that's how you grow. So it's doing the things that make you nervous and then getting that little buzz of having pushed yourself out of your comfort zone.
00:05:37
Speaker
Yeah, that is a very good way to look at things. I love that.
Math, Data, and Marketing
00:05:41
Speaker
Now, I want to talk a little bit about your career from sort of floor to boardroom, if you like. So you started at ANZ as a retail grad.
00:05:49
Speaker
And now, of course, you've found your way into the C-suite, which is not necessarily a common pathway. What sort of skills do you think or muscles did you develop early on that has helped you get to where you are now?
00:06:03
Speaker
I think innately I love maths and numbers. And I think that served me very well as a marketer because I'm good at talking about the impact that marketing has on the business. Yes.
00:06:16
Speaker
And I almost over index on that. So in my first few years as head of marketing in New Zealand, I would almost never talk about creative or show creative. I'm always about the numbers. This is the impact. This is what we're driving things.
00:06:29
Speaker
So that's, you know core to who I am. And I think that's made a big difference in a world that's looking for marketers that can explain their impact. In some ways, I imagine, because it can be so contentious, creativity can be very contentious and sometimes at a C-level,
00:06:49
Speaker
the data is is less arguable and less personal. So going data first, impact focus means you don't end up with everyone wanting to have an opinion on the way something looks or the tagline or the copy script.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yes, and and and that's a really tricky balance to walk, right? But if you can win the respect of people, if you can show them that consistently over time your creative works, then I think you create the space that they...
00:07:17
Speaker
feel less inclined to have an opinion on your work. And when you talk to them about the data that's guiding your decisions, you can lead them down a path where the outcome should feel more obvious to them. Yeah, that makes sense.
00:07:31
Speaker
And so your time in the UK working across telco and advertising, how did that shape your approach when you came back to Australia? Well, working in an advertising agency was brilliant. and And if people can do it, I would really encourage people to work both agency and client side. side yeah Agency side is much harder. I like to be the person holding the checkbook. um Sometimes when you when you work in an agency,
00:07:57
Speaker
You know, you can feel buffeted by people's decisions, but at least I understand what does it take to have a successful agency? And I, you know, I, in my New Zealand relationship, I've had the same creative agency for 12 years, I believe. and The same with media.
00:08:15
Speaker
And that's because I believe in partnership. I believe in sharing results and joy and and when things don't work that well. And I also understand how an agency makes money. So when we're negotiating or when we're asking for endless rework, at least I understand the pressure that that's putting them under. I think it makes me a better client.
00:08:35
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely observe that in clients that have an agency background. They do understand, well, firstly, they can call bullshit if they see it, but also they understand the impact of of what they're saying and and what that means for them.
00:08:49
Speaker
I want to ask about the idea of balancing brand data and customer experience.
Intuition and Data in Decision Making
00:08:54
Speaker
So they're three very powerful lenses. How do you know when to lead with insight, instinct or data?
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good thing. It's taken me a long time to learn to use instinct. And I was super uncomfortable even with the idea of it because I'm a data person. I wanted to see the numbers lead me somewhere.
00:09:16
Speaker
But what I've learned is somebody explained it as intuition is thousands of decisions that you've made in your life and your understanding of the outcomes. So then as a data person, I'm like, oh, it's just an algorithm.
00:09:30
Speaker
I'll call it instinct. And that made me a whole lot more comfortable to trust my gut on those things. And then like we just made a new TV ad and I was providing feedback. And then fortunately, the research came back and it said the same thing. And and I was laughing with my colleague, you know, 25 years of experience is useful data.
00:09:51
Speaker
Yeah, you can't replace that really. The data on its own is not enough. It's the that intuition that goes with it. And plus, obviously, you talk a lot about the empathy, the data and the empathy together.
00:10:03
Speaker
i want to ask, we are at a time where trust in big institutions is at an all time low, especially in the
Brand Trust and Consumer Relationships
00:10:10
Speaker
financial sector. So i imagine that makes things tricky. And what that really means is that the brand needs to do that heavy lifting.
00:10:18
Speaker
What do you think Australian and New Zealand consumers look for that might be different to that international experience? Is it any different? I don't think it's really different. I mean, I think when you think about brands, they do a couple of things for you. Mostly they provide you with a mental shortcut.
00:10:35
Speaker
We're always trying to make decisions better and and faster. And a brand should help you do that. And I think trust is incredibly important, particularly in financial services.
00:10:46
Speaker
And while we get a hard time from various parties, our brands are very strong and people choose to bank with us. And we work really hard to maintain that trust. It's critical.
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah. I want to ask about joy, finding joy in what matters and linking that to optimise for joy. You talked before about your agency partners and how important they are. Twelve years in media and comms is a long time.
00:11:12
Speaker
What would your trusted agency partners say about you from a joy perspective? What a lovely question. i think when I bring them joy is when I listen to them. So the creative director at our agency in New Zealand, um Shane, his I always call him when I think he's wrong and and I just say to him, talk me through your logic.
00:11:35
Speaker
And often he changes my mind. And I think you want a client who questions, but then you want a client who listens and who can hear a sincere argument presented well and follow your logic along. So I think we have a lot of joy from that. We have a lot of joy from winning prizes as its well.
00:11:54
Speaker
And we love when the work works. Yeah. And I imagine the tenure in that partnership would bring joy in itself. You know, it's it's yeah difficult maintaining relationships, but it's also difficult to consistently have to re-pitch for the same, you know, same work. So as ah as an agency, as you would have known, having someone trust you ah implicitly and being able to have those frank conversations, I imagine would be yeah pure joy in itself.
00:12:22
Speaker
And it's helped me make better decisions, right? When we launched our brand platform, It was quite a leap for us and I didn't necessarily follow the logic. It was just ah mostly a beautiful story about a family in New Zealand.
00:12:36
Speaker
And I, you know, I was trained on get the pack shop, show the brand, do these things, that that follow this formula. yeah And then suddenly you're presented with a piece of work that doesn't do that.
00:12:47
Speaker
And if you don't have trust with your agency, you can't
Long-term Agency Partnerships
00:12:51
Speaker
buy that work because you don't know that they're doing the best thing for you. or you Yeah, yeah, I get that. And sometimes, as you said before, it takes multiple conversations because the first cut may not be clear and people need to sleep on it and then understanding the rationale. And you need that relationship to be able to say, as you said, hey, take me through that thinking so that you understand what those deeper sub layers are.
00:13:17
Speaker
Yeah, and and, you know, when you've been in a relationship for a long time, you understand, too, how people need to think through things. um I'm quite a slow thinker and making TV ads, particularly today, is extremely expensive. So they're massive decisions and I need a little bit of gentle conversation to get me to the point. And and the agency knows and respects that. It's a seven-day process. It is.
00:13:44
Speaker
yeah How do you find joy day to day? What are the things in the workplace? It's mostly people. Whenever I'm sort of hating on work, I try and reconnect with people and have those conversations because that makes me, you know, really connected. And even like when I come back after Christmas, sometimes what happens is my diary sort of cleared out and I do some emails and I get really bored.
00:14:09
Speaker
And then I need to go and walk around and talk to my team and Feed off their excitement, if you like. And then, yeah, and then I feel much more joyful. Rejuvenated. But I think, you know, like i I always get puzzled when I talk to people and they sort of treat their mood as something they can't alter.
00:14:26
Speaker
And I'm very clear on what helps me to feel joy. um Exercise helps meditation, though I'm being bad at the moment, helps. Music. I started listening, shouldn't say that here, but too many podcasts.
00:14:41
Speaker
And I forgot to listen to music and music alters your
Joy in Social Media and Hobbies
00:14:44
Speaker
mood. And then i'm a big fan of social media. I know everyone hates on it. But if you have a well-curated Instagram feed which only gives you pandas and fat cats like mine does.
00:14:56
Speaker
Otters. Otters. marels Otters. Baby goats. Oh, my God. baby pig. I saw a baby pig last night. Oh, yeah. just sent that to everyone in my little mean pebble. Yes. And baby cow, mini cows. mini cows, the long-haired cows. Yes, all of those.
00:15:11
Speaker
And so sometimes when you've come out of a really tough meeting and you're feeling awful, in the left, I just get my little baby cow and a little bit of, and then you're ready to go again. Yeah, it's that, it's the break. I think with social media, just like anything, you know, it's like,
00:15:29
Speaker
You can eat a bag of crisps or you could eat 20. If you eat 20, obviously that's not going to be good. It's the same thing with social media. Obviously, as an adult, if you're a child, that's a whole different story. But um moderation is probably the key.
00:15:43
Speaker
And curation. The algorithms are beautiful. Just train them to make you joyful. Yeah, that is a good idea. Has there been a time where that joy has been dimmed so you've taken on too much or you found yourself in a position that was not playing to your strengths?
00:16:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, all of the time. When I picked up ah looking after data, I thought I knew something about data, but I really had no idea. Is that because the pace in which technology and data have progressed has made it so hard to keep up with?
00:16:19
Speaker
It's the complexity of it. Like the work that my team does is so intricate and complex. And it took me a long time to truly appreciate that. And and what you are asking potentially for a cut of what you need from the data.
00:16:36
Speaker
I know, because i'm always saying better, faster, cheaper. Come on, do it, do it, do it. And sometimes they have to show me, really, this is what we have to do. So this is better, faster, cheaper, if you really understand it And yeah, it took me a long time to to learn and to feel confident in that space.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose it's probably true for a lot of people that if that is not your, even if you're a maths person, that probably helps. If you're not a maths person, I imagine data would probably be even more frightening.
00:17:06
Speaker
Yes. And also I didn't grow up in it. Like I grew up in marketing. It's my craft. I've done it for 30 years. And so I do understand more about practically how to do it. And the first time that you lead people and you couldn't do their job, that is such a mind-blowingly difficult thing to learn and how to manage within that frame.
00:17:27
Speaker
Yeah. Is there something you think, just, you know, speaking about 30 years of experience, I'm coming up to 30 years next year, I think.
Marketing Education Gaps and Business Impact
00:17:35
Speaker
Do you think there's something they're not teaching marketing?
00:17:38
Speaker
Like, is there a gap in in the education part of marketing that's not preparing people? do you think that just comes from tenure? Well, um funnily enough, my son did a marketing paper last year and he phoned me up afterwards, his first lecture, and said he could do my job now.
00:17:55
Speaker
So they're obviously cramming a whole lot into the first lecture. The hubrisness is not... Maybe the egos toned that down. They didn't teach us enough about talking about business impact.
00:18:07
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know if that's changed now. I was lucky enough to do Thomas Barter's course, which is really about marketing leadership and how you lead into the business.
00:18:19
Speaker
I feel like that part is missing. singh yeah um a little bit too much focused on the craft and not enough on the impact. The thinking, the frameworks.
00:18:29
Speaker
I mean, one of my observations, I've never worked on client side, but is... the The joy that when we share a presentation and your agencies would feel the same, in most instances, that is the joy that that marketer is getting in their day or week because the rest of the job can be very unfun.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yes. and I think like a lot of careers, marketing sounds like it's going to be all about long boozy lunches and fun, you know, kind of creative work and work.
00:19:00
Speaker
shoots and things like that. But there is a lot of complexity, especially on the business side that, yeah, seems to be potentially ignored in education level. I think so. But I think you have to learn it in an organisation. i mean, often that's about like in our place in banking, as you can imagine,
00:19:17
Speaker
getting stuff signed off is something of a of a marathon and you need to learn how to shield the impact of your work while making sure that it meets the organisation's requirements. and And that can feel really gruelling, particularly as a junior marketer. Yeah, it's a lot to take on. Shield them from that trauma for as long as they can.
00:19:41
Speaker
ah want to ask about modern brand leadership and I i i definitely think you're approach on the role of data and, you know, the sort of soft and hard skills, I suppose, of of humans and the roles of brands.
00:19:56
Speaker
What do you think in such a complex sector like financial services, especially today, you know, ANZ, one of the the big four, so constantly under scrutiny, what do you think people get wrong about the role of brand in this space?
00:20:11
Speaker
I think there's a couple of things that I've been having conversations with people internally. The first is the importance of our brand and driving reputation. So we're very sensitive to what people are thinking about us, our customers, of course, but also regulators, society.
00:20:29
Speaker
Do we have social licence? All of that work. And then in us in New Zealand, um There is a negative sentiment around the big Australian banks taking all the money home. So so we're playing in that game and it's a lot to do and that's really important.
00:20:44
Speaker
But the other thing that I think we all understand, which I had the opportunity to talk to the executive of the bank and they didn't, is that when you're doing great brand work,
00:20:55
Speaker
Yes, it does all the consideration and the reputation, but it lifts every other piece of work that's in market. It lifts your personalisation work. It lifts your direct to customer work.
00:21:07
Speaker
And it was when we finally stacked them up in a way that people could get their heads around that, that they understood it. Because I think if you can't get people to understand that, then then they will focus too much on the in-market comms and not enough on the circumstances that would allow a customer to choose you. To, yeah, engage with that.
00:21:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Who do you think does this really well? Like as a brand sort of, yeah, mentor, I suppose. mean I mean, without being arrogant, I think the banks do a really good job because, you know, I've been in financial services often on my whole career and I love it because it's such an interesting place to play because people have funny relationships with money.
00:21:53
Speaker
Banks are so important to the economy. Like it's an interesting market. And I think that means that we've really had to turn up and be appealing to customers. So I love to watch the work of service brands in particular, because I think in some ways, I don't know if it's true, but I think it's harder in some ways than selling a product where you can talk about the features.
00:22:15
Speaker
And we need to talk about, yes, our products, but also how they'll make you feel and how they can help you to thrive. And that's a more complex message, I think. Especially when you are you have a broad audience base from age, you know, every demographic profiling um is going to be involved in who you're communicating to. So I imagine that would make things complex as well.
00:22:40
Speaker
It does. And we sometimes get into this friction when ah with institutional, you know, because they're talking to you know CEOs and CTOs of massive organisations.
00:22:51
Speaker
And if they perceive us to be too flippant or too um lighthearted, and then that creates a bit of tension with how they want to be perceived. Yeah, the perception of, yeah, the serious side of finance. Yes.
00:23:05
Speaker
That we do try to convince them that even the CEO of a big company is still a Can be human. We would love to see more of that.
Empowering Women in Finance
00:23:14
Speaker
Hashtag women in leadership. That would be great.
00:23:16
Speaker
ah We have interviewed the CEO Fitter for Work, which is a not-for-profit organisation who specialise in helping women return to work. So they help them with their work readiness, with the preparation of what they wear, interview skills, um even the recruitment process. And one of the things that I think is really important in the financial sector is just financial literacy for women. um Do ANZ do a lot of work in that space?
00:23:43
Speaker
We do. I mean, we we are quite passionate about that because on average, women will retire with less money than men. And a couple of things causes that, i mean, lower incomes, and we fight really hard at the bank to try to make sure that that doesn't happen within our organisation, ah taking breaks when they have babies.
00:24:04
Speaker
But the thing that we can help the most with is tolerance for risk. And As women, we tend to take less risk with our money. And unfortunately, that can lead to worse financial outcomes. So we try and help people to have the confidence to make the right decisions for them and to take on enough risk that they will be better set up for retirement.
00:24:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting you say that. I think it was in another interview in this podcast, maybe it was Lucy Bloom, where we talked about propensity for risk being so gendered, something that's inherently part of the bias growing up of boys are allowed to take more risk, even from the simplicity of jumping out of trees versus girls jumping out of trees as seen as not permissible. And that really starts to show through in terms of jobs that that women think that they can go for versus men will attempt to go for investment, you know, superannuation, all of those things start to get bundled up. So it's interesting that you say that. It's a really...
00:25:06
Speaker
Yeah, and I see that sometimes in young women in my team. You know, I've had to have one or two conversations with people that, you know, where I encourage them strongly to apply for roles because I think that that old trite saying that women apply for jobs when they've got 80% of the skills and men apply when they've got 30 is probably true from what I see. i don't know if you've seen this in your Instagram page meme feed, but the, I wish I had the confidence of a mediocre white man. Yeah, it's it's a curious thing. But I think that's, it's really great to see big organisations like ANZ being committed to um creating that sort of grassroots change, because I think that's the sort of thing that's going to change, you know, the next generation. And I have a 10 year old daughter. So knowing that things hopefully will be easier for her and then the next generation on, I think it's really important.
00:26:00
Speaker
I think so too. And, you know, the advice that we're given now is to talk about money with your children. And that's a really fascinating path to go down. Particularly, i always think kids are always dividing up what they think their inheritance is. um But I got my daughter to put some savings into a fund so that she could see what compound interest did and get a sense of that so that she would be hooked on that.
00:26:25
Speaker
earning money without having to do anything. Like it's like the biggest hack in the world. know. The book that I give sort of teenagers is just that classic barefoot investor because it's so easy to read. And when I read that as a teenager, the compound interesting, like talk about the simplicity of maths.
00:26:43
Speaker
It's actually not complicated at all. It's just that people don't do it. but know. The impact if you do do it at such a young age, even, you know, 12, 13, 14, what that would just put in regular $10, $50, like as you start to to go into a sort of funneled off account is exponential.
00:27:02
Speaker
It's an incredible. And if you can just get them a little bit hooked on that.
ANZ's Brand Tone and Human Connection
00:27:06
Speaker
I think what we're seeing with kids now, though they're quite fascinated with shares and investing as well. So it's trying teach them how to balance that risk and return.
00:27:15
Speaker
I think it is good though to the, you know, without tipping into unhealthy relationships with um too much risk, but the idea that, yeah, sometimes you do need to take a bit of risk to to see a reward and it may not always go your way, but that's okay.
00:27:32
Speaker
um I want to just um circle back onto something. So i know that Joy is very personal to you, but you mentioned something before about being in such a serious category What's the balance of, I suppose, that seriousness when it comes to the brand versus bringing a sense of sort of surprise and unexpected joy? Our tone of voice is playfully clever. yeah And that's quite a tricksy one to to live with because on one hand,
00:28:01
Speaker
you get into slapstick and jokes and that is not appropriate. So one of our creative directors used to describe it as a smile in the mind. And I love that expression. Like we're not out there to make you laugh, but we are out there to say something that's slightly different or unusual that makes you lean in. And I think when you do that well and it's tricky, then that's where people warm to you and and see you as more human and less cold and banky.
00:28:30
Speaker
Yeah, I get that. This podcast is all about biting big and chewing like hell. I want to understand, is there a moment or ah a period of your life where you have bitten big and has that been ah positive or a negative experience?
Work-Life Balance and Measuring Joy
00:28:47
Speaker
Is there something that stands out?
00:28:49
Speaker
There's been far too many because I have job kleptomania. But when I took on the CMO role, I added it to my current portfolio. And it was a lot more than I expected. I always anticipate that work will be easier, faster and more fun than it actually is. So I did have to figure out how to do the work.
00:29:12
Speaker
I'm still learning and and that's why I'm still in the job. If I wasn't learning, i I would do something else. But and I think it's really about your mental framework. I was at the end of last year, I was really beating myself up because, you know, work was eating into my weekend and I was like, oh I'm losing my work life balance.
00:29:32
Speaker
And then I thought, but I enjoy this work. like Yes, I have to sort of force myself to do emails. But as soon as I'm into a presentation or a new piece of thinking, it's brilliant if I'm listening to a podcast or talking to a friend about marketing.
00:29:48
Speaker
then I'm really happy. So I think the lesson that I've learned most recently is not to measure joy in hours on the job, but to measure joy in those little breakthrough moments of conversation or new ideas.
00:30:05
Speaker
And that helps me. Are there any Regrets. do you Do you think back to moments you you mentioned, you know, 30 years in this industry? Was there a time where you didn't add to your kleptomaniac collection of of jobs and then sort of thought afterwards, I wonder where that would have taken me?
00:30:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i when I worked in advertising in London, I worked in very small agencies and I um also worked in a startup agency. And so it wasn't the glamour of the big London brands marketing.
00:30:44
Speaker
I do feel a little bit of... The Saatchi and Saatchi. Exactly. And I would have loved to have worked in that. I think it would have been fascinating. I also would have loved to have worked in FMCG because with bank products, there's such a long break between when you do your work and when you get your results.
00:31:03
Speaker
And I just feel like there would have been something fun and enjoyable in those places, but not really. It's just a, you know, ah I mean, you do have, I went through, I had to curate that list of accomplishments down. So I'm pretty sure um yeah you've done well for yourself, but I know what you mean. I mean, I've always worked in independent businesses and of course now with my own, but I ah do sometimes walk into meetings with the big global agencies and go, oh God, it'd be nice to just be well-funded and backed by...
00:31:35
Speaker
um lots of big budgets and a team of 30 people squirrelling around putting stuff together for me. I think it would be superb. And sometimes I see jobs that are like strategist, future thinker or, you know, distilling ideas. And I think, oh, I would love to do that.
00:31:54
Speaker
I'd like to just like the innovation centre of Lego, like just get me in there. That would be fun. Or um a car. Imagine being involved in the inception and design.
00:32:06
Speaker
How neat would that be? Yeah. Who was the woman that recently just took over? It was either, wasn't Jaguar because that would have been controversial, but a woman just took over a um head of head of design at, maybe it was the holding company for Mercedes, but I thought that's quite spectacular because it's um unusual, especially in product design to have a female-led car.
00:32:28
Speaker
engineer is quite unusual. Hopefully the first of many. Yes, exactly. That is a good segue into one other thing I wanted to talk about, about biting big. So we spoke before about women's propensity for risk.
00:32:41
Speaker
Do you have any advice for women that might be sort of in that emerging phase of marketing or communications on you know, how to how to progress with confidence in their career but still stay true to
Encouraging Uniqueness in Marketing
00:32:56
Speaker
themselves? Because I think that's often challenging for young women. They feel like they have to behave a certain way to climb through the ranks.
00:33:04
Speaker
I hope and definitely um at ANZ, that that world is changing a little bit. Like we are having a lot of conversations around diversity and about it being the encouragement to bring different ideas through, you know, like it's about diversity, neurodiversity, as well as ethnicity and gender and all of those things. So I hope that they don't feel quite the same pressure that we did to conform.
00:33:35
Speaker
And then I think you just, you have to know that somebody chose you to do that job and saw in you something special and unique. And if you just conform, you take that uniqueness off the table and you do nobody a service.
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's really true. i mean, one of the things when I talk to, I'm giving a presentation actually to the UniWA tonight on women in business. And one of the things I think is really important is being advocates for other women, because not all women, unfortunately, are advocates for other women. like Women can be chauvinists in the same way that men can.
00:34:16
Speaker
But where you have the opportunity to shine that light, you know you can either be someone who shines a light or casts a shadow. And I think shining the light, taking those opportunities to shine the light on others and then passing, playing that forward.
00:34:32
Speaker
I think it's our obligation as women who've built successful careers to reach back and em pull other people forward. Was it Madeleine Albright who said, there's a special place in hell for women who hold other women back?
00:34:46
Speaker
And I think that's 100% true. yeah One thing that I do counsel myself with is I think my ah pathway to being a woman in leadership has been less stressful than perhaps the women who went before me, who were expected to conform and be tougher than the blokes and all of that stuff.
00:35:07
Speaker
So sometimes when I feel that ah more senior women or women who have been in careers longer are not reaching back with that kindness. I remind myself that they grew up in a tougher era. In a fight or flight situation. yeah Exactly. And we need to meet that with empathy, but not take it on ourselves. That's a really good perspective.
00:35:28
Speaker
um I usually meet that with rage. So I'll try and take, and lots of swearing, I'll try and take a leaf out of that book, The Empathy. What do you wish that you had have known as a younger self? What would a 16-year-old Astrid, if you could pass something down to her, what would that be?
00:35:48
Speaker
I think I would have passed excitement. You're so nervous at that age, aren't you? And Every decision feels like it will change your life forever. I just keep counselling my children. So my son's at university and he's trying to figure out what to do and haven't yet persuaded him that marketing is the only sensible career, but I'm working on it. And I just say to him, study the things that bring you joy, yeah where you're fascinated, where you're learning, where your brain feels like it's going to explode.
00:36:19
Speaker
Because that's the stuff you'll bring your energy to in the future. yeah I started off trying to get into law school yeah and I didn't make it. And that was such a blessing because I would have been techie.
00:36:30
Speaker
terrible lawyer. i hate detail and long documents. Lots of presentations, lots of talking. Well, I mean, I thought I'd be a barrister, you know, obviously with the hat and the thing, but I wouldn't. I'd have been a corporate lawyer checking contracts. I would have lost my mind.
00:36:46
Speaker
So, you know, I think you just have to do what you're good at and where you find your energy and then you'll be excellent. Then you'll let it go. Yeah. And I suppose also knowing that That might change. Yes. That career path um could change 10 times.
00:37:03
Speaker
And in actual fact, my view on higher education is actually less about what you study and more about the commitment to learning something yeah and to surrounding yourself with people that are interesting and interested as an additional way, you know, when you leave school and go straight into the job, which of course is very tempting. And I'm always advocating for sort of on the job training, because I think that's really important. But everyone I know that's done that has sort of just ended up in that trap of once you earn the money, and then you keep earning the money, it's very hard to stop
00:37:41
Speaker
and say, I'm now going to learn something new. So sometimes that, you know, if you have the opportunity and the financial means to go on and learn straight out of high school, it can be a gift.
00:37:54
Speaker
I think so. I mean, um you know going back to my son, he's studying along with commerce, politics and philosophy. And I'm really encouraging that because by the time he gets out, AI will be able to do all the boring stuff, right? yeah But he will be able to think differently in concepts and constructs.
00:38:12
Speaker
And i think that's what we'll all need. Well, that is the what I believe is the future of all careers, yeah is the the balance of focusing more on the the creativity, understanding, of course, the the data and the business side. But as you said, a lot of that, um a lot of the more manual things will be automated So teaching critical thinking skills is absolutely paramount.
00:38:38
Speaker
I'm sort of hoping we'll all get to that 20-hour work week we've been promised for ages. I know. Well, I've been promising myself that for the last, I don't know, 10 years. Yeah. I just keep taking on more things like yeah podcasts. Maybe you've got job clip to make. I think I do. i really resonated when you said that.
00:38:56
Speaker
I just never put it put a title to it. um You talked about women shining a light. Who has given you great career advice? And that doesn't need to be a woman, just anyone. What's been that?
00:39:08
Speaker
What's been really great advice for you? Do you know the the funniest thing is when I was at 15 at school and I saw my career as counsellor, who was an elderly man, he said, go into marketing.
00:39:22
Speaker
And I just went to university and studied it. And I always remember... When I got my first marketing job and I had to drive from Auckland to Wellington, I packed everything I owned into my little car and off I sat. And I thought, gosh, i hope I like this marketing thing because I've studied it for five years and I don't have a plan B. I've put everything into it. Well, it's worked out pretty well for you. so It's worked out brilliantly. I wouldn't worry. I'm so grateful to have met you today and been able to spend this time learning about this idea of optimising for joy success.
00:39:56
Speaker
you know, reminding me personally, and hopefully our listeners on focusing on the goals, but not at the expense of every day, those everyday moments you've talked about. um Job kleptomaniac, um that is definitely going on some sort of tote or t-shirt. I've written that down and that is going to stay up here.
00:40:12
Speaker
I liked your sentiment when you spoke about the role of brand, especially in financial services on driving reputation, because I think sometimes that gets lost when we're talking about the role of brand and profile.
Role of Brand in Reputation and Consumer Engagement
00:40:25
Speaker
um We mentioned join every day, the smile and the mind. I like this idea of as ah as a bank, but also when we talk about brand voice, you know, sometimes you get a list of like eight words. It's like, how the hell are you ever going to interpret that? So I really like ANZ, that playfully clever, the simplicity of that. And the parting thing that I've noted down here, and measuring joy through those little breakthroughs, those moments, all those new ideas, I think are really beautiful sentiments.
00:40:54
Speaker
And no doubt people are going to get a lot from what we talked about today. So I'm really grateful.
Supporting Orange Sky Charity
00:40:59
Speaker
This podcast is produced by women for everyone really, but focused on elevating women.
00:41:05
Speaker
And to show our gratitude, we donate $500 on your behalf to a chosen charity. And you have chosen Orange Sky, um the New Zealand Orange Sky, charity that operates both in New Zealand and Australia, much like ANZ.
00:41:19
Speaker
If you don't know Orange Sky, we definitely will put a link in, but they support people experiencing homelessness or hardship, with access to free laundry and shower services. I've seen their vans around. There's actually an office not far from here with Orange Sky. And that's really about bringing dignity to people who don't have access to those services so they can be wearing, or they can have a sense of belonging, but also be wearing things that feel fresh and clean. It's really important.
00:41:43
Speaker
I'd love to hear what the significance of Orange Sky is for you. Yeah, so i live in a in a city part of Auckland and there's lots of homeless people who live around me. And I see the vans like you do, and I just think if I was homeless, I would feel so much better after I'd had a cup of tea, ah hot shower, put my clean clothes back on. and i would just feel so much more human. And I think sometimes when we think about homelessness, we we think about...
00:42:15
Speaker
trying to get people into homes, and that's really important. But I met somebody at Auckland Mission, and the heartbreak of her story was she'd never been in a house in which she hadn't been assaulted.
00:42:28
Speaker
And so for her, the street feels safer. And I think, OK, I wish that wasn't your life story, but if this is the way that you need to live to feel safe, then I want to help you to have clean clothes,
00:42:44
Speaker
And some dignity. tea Yeah. And that that's why I support it because I know that's what I would want if I was homeless. Yeah. Oh, that's a great story. Well, we will definitely put the links if anyone else wants to support Orange Sky, um a great organisation.
00:43:01
Speaker
Well, that is a wrap for us. I've been your host, Amber Bonney. And until next episode, I hope you bite big and chew like hell. And thank you so much, Astrid, for being on this podcast. Thank you for having me.
00:43:12
Speaker
Bye.