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00:00:01
Amber Bites Big with Leisa Bacon - Director of Audiences for one of the most iconic media organisations in Australia, the ABC
104 Plays7 months ago
In Episode 9, Amber Bonney Bites Big with superstar guest co-host Leisa Bacon who has been described as a brand & experience evangelist, she's one of Australia's most credentialed marketers and creative thinkers and holds the role of Director of Audiences for the iconic ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation).
Inspired by Amber's own Mantra, "bite big and chew like hell", in this episode we discuss Leisa's 25+ years of marketing experience and how her two Mantra's, "Just Do It" & "Be Kind", has shaped her career and personal life, especially during the difficult time of the COVID-19 pandemic where here value's- based decision making and ingenuity has been well documented as a best-in-class example of how to lead, pivot and innovate during challenging times.
Being named the number 1 CMO in the top CMO50 Awards in 2020 and being in the top 5 for the 3 years previous, Leisa is a formidable force that consistently shows up for her team as well as herself, and in this episode we find out exactly how and what leadership strategies Leisa uses to get the best out of her teams.
Leisa shares how she likes to flip challenges into opportunities by using the enterprise design thinking process, a methodology Amber practices in her own business. Leisa specifically discusses the media landscape and the advancement of AI and the challenges it brings with misinformation. How staying relevant to current and future generations requires harnessing diversity across a range of dimensions to produce better content and creative across a multitude of platforms.
Bite Big has donated $500 to the chosen charity CanToo an independent health promotion charity committed to funding Cancer research.
If you would like to know more about our host Amber Bonney her business The Edison Agency or co-host Leisa Bacon, you can connect and follow these boss women via their socials links below!
Links:
Leisa's LinkedIn
ABC, ABC iView or ABC Listen
References:
Brene Brown – Daring Greatly
Byron Sharp – How Brands Grow: What Marketers Don’t Know
The Edison Agency's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's Instagram
Amber's Instagram
Amber's LinkedIn
CanToo
Credits
Main Host: Amber Bonney
Producer: Niki Beeston
Post Production : Francine Toscano, 17th Street Audio
Recommended
Transcript
Acknowledgment of Country
00:00:00
Speaker
On behalf of the Bite Big team and my co-host today, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are recording on today, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We recognise First Peoples of Australia as the original storytellers, artists and designers of this country, and we pay our respects to their elders past, present and emerging.
Introducing Amber Bonney and Lisa Bacon
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello, before we get stuck into this episode of Bite Big, let me tell you a little bit about who the hell I am and why this content's important to me. My name's Amber Bonney, and for the past 25 years, I've been reshaping iconic Australian and international brands, helping them stay relevant, get noticed, and be remembered in the good kind of way. I'm a passionate feminist and committed to advocating for better representation of women in senior creative and marketing roles, which is why this podcast is proudly brought to you by my business, Theatresen Agency.
00:00:58
Speaker
Edison turns 13 this year and we have the privilege of working with some of the world's most influential consumer brands in businesses like Nestle, the Bega Group, Sahi, Subaru, Buber, Arnott's and local federal government departments. If your brand or organization needs help aligning your vision to your reputation, then you can find us at www.edison.agency or you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Let's get into it.
00:01:28
Speaker
Well, hello everyone and welcome to season two, episode four of Bite Big, a podcast about boss women leading big brands. I'm your host, Amber Bonney, and today I'm grateful to be co-hosting this episode with Lisa Bacon, who holds the esteemed title of Director of Audiences for one of Australia's most iconic media organizations, the ABC.
Lisa Bacon's Career and Mantras
00:01:49
Speaker
Welcome, Lisa.
00:01:50
Speaker
Thank you so much, Amber. We're really looking forward to the conversation today. Let me read a bit of a bio out for you. Lisa, you've got over 25 years experience working with massive blue chip consumer goods and entertainment companies, the likes of Procter & Gamble, Coca-Cola, Boots, Village Roadshow, as well as some time in the Queensland Performing Arts Centre.
00:02:10
Speaker
You've been at the ABC for over 10 years, which is a huge feat. And I imagine that working for one of Australia's largest creative organizations comes with a sense of immense pressure and scrutiny. So as a leader, you have a massive remit, a huge headcount of people to lead. And I'm really looking forward to getting stuck into what makes you tick really. I'd imagine that having the opportunity to work so closely with some of Australia's most incredible content makers and storytellers would be really rewarding. So we're looking forward to hearing about that.
00:02:39
Speaker
And I did want to mention that whilst it wasn't your first rodeo in the top 10 position, in 2020 you did receive the coveted number one CMO in Australia by CMO magazine. Congratulations on that. Thank you. Which in that year saw you outshine other established CMOs from the iconic Optus, Telstra, ANZ, Westpac, Audi and Woolworth. So no small feat in itself.
00:03:02
Speaker
You're on multiple boards. So you're on the board of legs on the wall, a physical theater company and free view, which is the free TV industry body. And you've been described as a brand and experience evangelist, which I'm really looking forward to hearing about what this means for your career and leadership. So let's kick this off and get under the skin of what drives you to be a boss woman.
00:03:23
Speaker
Now, Lisa, the premise of this podcast really came about, as I was mentioning just before we went live, around the idea of people using their mantra to make and guide their decision making. And so one of the mantras that I have lived by, Bite, Beak and Chew Like Hell, obviously was the inspiration behind the podcast name.
00:03:44
Speaker
It is a mantra that has gotten me into trouble, but also allowed me to flourish in some areas. And we asked you what your mantras were. And if you don't mind, I'll read out. You have two of them. One will sound very familiar to you, especially if you're familiar with consumer goods. So the first one is just do it. And the second one is be kind. So let's unpack that a little bit.
Leadership in the Pandemic
00:04:07
Speaker
How did these two mantras come about and have they always been with you?
00:04:11
Speaker
Okay, so they're obviously both quite different. So let me start with just do it. I would say that's probably been my life mantra ever since I was a little kid. I'm one of these people. I hate procrastination. I just want to get out there and I want to do things. So if there are opportunities, if there are, if I have an idea, I'm the first person to just jump in and try it. And I think I've applied that to my career to a certain extent. If there are big opportunities that someone approaches me about, I've gone, wow.
00:04:39
Speaker
Let's have a look. That sounds exciting. Let me try that. And similarly in life, and I'm a runner and I love the great outdoors. So someone said, let's try that marathon or how about that a hundred kilometer trail walk or let's kayak down the Hawkesbury river for a hundred kilometers. I'm the first to jump in and say, that sounds pretty good. That doesn't mean I'm reckless. I certainly look into the things that I do, but I'm a big believer in
00:05:04
Speaker
have no regrets in life. And if an opportunity presents itself and it sounds interesting and I get excited about it, I'm going to jump in and I'm going to do it. Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. And Be Kind. Yeah. So Be Kind really came to life for me during the pandemic. And, you know, I work in a big media organization and you mentioned, you know, I was the number one CMO. That was because of the activity we did during the pandemic. It was a really tough time in media, but it has never been more important to be the ABC.
00:05:32
Speaker
So people come to the ABC in a time of crisis and the pandemic was one of those times when people really wanted to know what was going on. And every single day they were sort of looking for information and updates and what did that mean for them. So for us as a media organization, not only did we have to pivot overnight to everybody working from home, but we had to really look at our services and make sure they were so easy for people to find.
00:05:55
Speaker
and that they could get the most important information that they needed on a daily basis. And a lot of the time, you know, my team members, they might've had kids at home, they had a whole heap of different pressures, but we also had to make sure we were doing the right thing for the Australian public because it was just so important to be a public broadcaster through that period. So I really had to think about how am I super kind
00:06:18
Speaker
to my team, to myself, through what would be an incredibly difficult and challenging period that no one knew how long it would go for. So I very much took the approach of let me understand what this means for each individual and how can I help them to succeed through this period. And then when we came out of the pandemic, the team had done an amazing job, but things didn't stop. So I continued to really think about that and think about what does
00:06:45
Speaker
showing up and being kind, mean for my team. How can I use all the things that are enablers to make sure that people were feeling supported in the job that they had to do in an increasingly, I think, difficult environment in terms of, you know, the world's changed. There's so much less personal connection, there's so many more mental health issues, and there's so much greater awareness of all of that. So how do I as a leader acknowledge that?
00:07:11
Speaker
and make sure that I give permission for people to talk about those things. And part of that is being compassionate, understanding what's going on, and just really caring about myself. So I think of Be Kind as caring. I mean, it's really difficult. Everyone, whether you're in business or not in business, had a difficult time during COVID and in preparing for this podcast and reading
00:07:32
Speaker
some of the content that you'd written around what an opportunity it was, but in an authentic way, not in a commercial way. The challenge I imagine around being kind is you're going through a personal crisis. You've got kindness to yourself. You have, you know, supporting your family. It's like a four layered cake of kindness. If you like it, you've got yourself, you've got your family, you've got your team, and then you have your end users, all of which need empathy and kindness.
00:08:01
Speaker
at that time of crisis. Yes. And I always think it starts with you. Like, you can only help other people after you've helped yourself. It's like that, famously when you're on an airplane. Yeah. Put your oxygen mask on first. So for me, I have to have balance. So I'm very passionate about getting outside, great outdoors, being in nature, no matter what the weather's like. My sanity comes from getting outside. So I know for me,
00:08:26
Speaker
For me to show up and do a great job at work, I have to have a balance. I have to have been outside. I have to go for a walk or a run. And then I'm a better person. I show up. I'm more open-minded. I'm less critical. I have the capacity to be kind and empathetic and care about others regardless of the environment. So for me, start with yourself. Know what it is that makes you a better person and able to show up for others and make sure
Authentic Leadership and Vulnerability
00:08:51
Speaker
you do that first. And then you have a greater capacity to help other people.
00:08:54
Speaker
And to your point, you know, these days it's, it's not just you as an individual, it's you as a family member or household member, it's, and you as a leader as well. So you have to show up authentically in all of those areas. And for me, I have to show up in all those ways as somebody who does care, because that's just, that's me. And I think that I try and bring that to life in everything that I do.
00:09:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think, and I'm interested if you agree with this, but one of the things that COVID taught us as a community was that it's okay for you to lead as yourself. And I know from having spoken to a lot of women in senior leadership roles,
00:09:35
Speaker
growing up, they always felt like they needed to behave a certain way to be a leader. So you need to be, you know, stern faced or you need to show resilience, but no emotion. And I think during COVID, it was that one opportunity really for people to come together and for leaders who led from the heart. I know you're a fan of Brené Brown and, you know, the work that she's done in, I suppose, opening up opportunities for people to
00:10:02
Speaker
recognize that you can be vulnerable and a great leader. And in fact, great leaders are typically more vulnerable. And so, yeah, did you find during lockdown that it amplified that for you and unlocked that for you as a leader? A hundred percent. And I guess for me, the first recognition of that, because I certainly started my career thinking I had to play with the boys. You know, you have to be, you had to be confident, you had to be out there, you had to
00:10:30
Speaker
really show up with a lot of presence and a lot of audacity just to have a seat at the table. But not too much audacity. Exactly. It's got to be measured. But the older and the more experienced I have become in my career, the more I have realized that that is not authentically me. I am very much the person that cares about others. I'm very much the person who wants to demonstrate empathy,
00:10:56
Speaker
and vulnerability, and talk about how I'm going to manage a situation. And I'm okay with people being emotional at work. In fact, you know, if you are making tough decisions that impact people's lives, I think it's perfectly okay to be emotional. In some ways, it's inauthentic not to, not to be. They're very personal, often, you know, difficult decisions that you're making as a leader. But I will say, the first time I saw
00:11:18
Speaker
Brené Brown's beak, which was at South by Southwest, probably in about 2015. It was a life changer for me. It was the first time I saw a very inspirational leading woman able to talk about vulnerability. And I realized, oh my gosh, this is okay. She's doing it and demonstrating it in a way that made me realize
00:11:37
Speaker
This is the future. This is what leadership is. It is about your whole self showing up to work, being comfortable talking about that and being really open and transparent with how you feel about something to enable someone else to equally be open and transparent back.
Cultural Shifts in Leadership
00:11:51
Speaker
But in terms of the biggest way that came to life for me personally was definitely through COVID.
00:11:56
Speaker
and just how real everything became. You know, you were literally in each other's households. You saw each other's families. You saw the washing. Exactly. It was so real. And while COVID was an incredibly difficult period for me as a person, definitely my most rewarding as a leader. Like I loved getting to know my team members, their families, their pets, what made them tick, what they cared about. I felt we were so much more real. And I wanted to keep that going after COVID because
00:12:25
Speaker
There is something lovely about being able to bring your whole self to work and being able to talk about the things that impact you and are important to you. And, you know, if you can't make a 9am meeting because
00:12:37
Speaker
you have to get your child to school. You know, that is okay to talk about now. At the start of my career, there is no way anyone acknowledged the reality. That they either had children, like, you know, it wasn't, unless you're a woman and you're always asked at an interview. But aside from that, it was, yeah, it was just complete, it was completely ignored. It was. And you were just expected to, you know, early
00:12:59
Speaker
years of any career, you work incredible hours and you just showed up and you never talked about the impact that that was having on your life. You know, I've always been a runner. I can still remember. I would get home and I would run at 11 o'clock at night when I was training for a marathon.
00:13:14
Speaker
I just can't imagine doing that in this day and age because there's so much more understanding that actually balance is good. We can talk about these things. We can be a bit more flexible in people's lives. And I think that is good. And I think as a leader, it is so critical. And my personal experience is from that, like you just, I'm always on, I'm always working. And as a leader of a much smaller team than yours, the risk in that is that if you don't model the behavior of
00:13:42
Speaker
hey, there's a school concert and I'm leaving at three, or I'm running late for whatever reason, or I'm doing something because it's family related, then it doesn't give anyone else permission to do that either. And then suddenly you end up in these toxic cultures of... I couldn't agree more. And we talk about this a lot in the team and not just from the perspective of flexibility around work, but also making sure that we have people that come and talk to us about how we manage our mental health. We had Kamal recently,
00:14:12
Speaker
from Resilium who ran a fantastic session on really understanding your personal energy and how you manage that throughout the day. We do a number of different initiatives just to acknowledge that, you know, everyone's gonna show up differently and that's okay. And we all have our own ways of managing challenges and stress. And again, that's okay. And we should acknowledge that other people might do that differently to us and we should try and understand that as much as possible. I also put my team
00:14:39
Speaker
I saw that. My leadership team through. First Aid course. Yes. Yeah. Mental Health First Aid, which again, I think is just incredibly important in this day and age. I literally don't know anyone who hasn't had some form of struggle in the last 10 years. To be human is to be inherently flawed, and that is okay.
00:14:55
Speaker
So how do we help others? How do we recognize those signs? How do we as leaders know that part of our job is looking out for our team members? Yeah, I've taken a note on that because when I was listening to another podcast that you had done, I'm like, that sounds actually really great. I'm going to look into that for my team because I know there are a couple of industry things that are related to supporting creatives in mental health, but especially in the creative services industry and you would work with a lot of creative people
00:15:24
Speaker
You know, you have a lot of introverts, you have a lot of people that where they find being on all the time can be quite mentally draining. So you couple that with other stress points. And as you said, everybody manages differently, whether they've got families or no families, it can make the workplace much more harmonious. It can. And I think just understanding how to talk about it is really important.
00:15:47
Speaker
So again, earlier in my career, no one talked about mental health. You showed up, you were positive, you were doing a great job. There was no discussion about anything else. These days, it's so refreshing that people feel they can actually, again, bring the whole self to work. If they're having a bad day, they can talk about it. If they need some time off to manage through a very stressful situation, again, that's an okay conversation to have. In fact, I'd be disappointed if someone felt they couldn't have that conversation.
00:16:14
Speaker
And I think not to continue banging on about Brené Brown, but what she did in following her first book was really brought emotive words like vulnerability into the C-suite boardroom, which was the first time that that had ever happened. The word vulnerable just didn't show up. I used to work in employer branding in the
00:16:35
Speaker
you know, in the corporate sector in the early 2000s. And this was an era where corporate culture and external consumer brand culture was completely different, like different agencies working on them. They had different values. They were completely different. Now, when it's all one, you can't have different messages. It's one, the message you talk to your team about as a leader is the same message that you would be speaking to end users about. It's the same sort of brand communication.
Media Challenges and Innovation
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more, although I would still say there continues to be more opportunity at a boardroom and C-suite level for those authentic, vulnerable conversations, particularly in male-dominated industries. It's probably still not as prevalent as it should be. There's definitely a change that's come through, particularly post COVID. But I've still been in meetings and discussions where I think we could have had a more authentic conversation if people were willing to be more vulnerable.
00:17:32
Speaker
While I do believe part of leadership is demonstrating yourself, those principles, you also have to have safe environments to do that. And the first to acknowledge not every environment is going to be a safe environment to do that. But increasingly, workspaces are. I certainly hope my team would feel that in our own team meetings. And as much as possible, I try and foster that as a leader as well.
00:17:54
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I also read that you do monthly reviews, check-ins with the team. Yes. Yeah. I can't remember what you, I made a note somewhere about what you called them, but I thought that was a really great way of checking in on the vibe of the team in the business. And especially when, I mean, you have what, over 150 people. Yeah. We have about 165 people at the moment. I know it's a lot of people to keep a good vibe with. It is. And particularly they're geographically dispersed.
00:18:24
Speaker
So they're all around the country. So when we bring people together each month for our standups, it's generally in a virtual forum, which again is also hard to connect, which is why we did start doing the poll survey because it gave us a really good sense of what's happening in the team. And then we enable people as part of the poll survey to let us know why they're feeling that way and what they'd like us to improve.
00:18:47
Speaker
And it's been a great way of really understanding the sentiment in the team. I'm not going to pretend it's perfect. There's no such thing as a perfect working environment, but it is great that we can have the conversations, we can be authentic, we can look at what's working, what's not, and we can try and address those things that aren't. I want to ask you just back to just do it. Do you feel like this comes from a place of bravery or fearlessness?
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good question. It's probably a little bit of both. I wouldn't say I'm completely fearless. I am definitely somebody who thinks through the risks around things.
00:19:21
Speaker
But generally speaking, once I've thought through the risks, I've thought, you know, if I'm 50% there, I can actually go and give it a go. I'm not afraid of failure. That's probably a really big thing. I'm very happy to jump into something, give it a go and acknowledge if it's not possible at the end of the day, but be happy that I've tried and I've learned from that. And I certainly encourage that of my team too.
00:19:44
Speaker
If you're 50% or 60% there, just give it a go. And what is the worst thing that can happen? So I've had many conversations over the last few years of people going, I don't know. And I'm like, let's play out. What is the worst case scenario? You know, we do it. It doesn't work. We learn. We are in a world at the moment where I truly don't think anyone knows, particularly in media, what the next five to 10 years have in store. Now we've got Gen AI hitting us where in digital platforms where the big
00:20:11
Speaker
tech leaders, they're making really different and disparate and often challenging decisions. And we're all a little bit at the mercy of algorithms that, you know, get people to our content one week and may not the next. So in a world like that, you have to try different things. There is no formula for success anymore. You know, when, when I started in marketing, we had lots of formulas of how we did things these days. It's a test and learn environment. So you have to be willing to try something new and put it out there and see how it goes.
00:20:40
Speaker
that doesn't mean you're reckless. And particularly when you work for an organization like the ABC, which is under a lot of scrutiny, they are considered risks, but there are a lot of considered risks that you can take and develop learnings from. Yeah. And in that considered risk, in that not afraid to fail, is that something that you, in working at the ABC, you feel like is you get constant challenge or push back on in terms of taking risks with
00:21:07
Speaker
you know, reaching new audiences, for example, because that fail fast does come with a sense of, yeah, responsibility. And you'll be on the front page of 10 newspapers the next day. I will definitely say there is a balance at the ABC in the sort of risks that you take. It's public money, so it is appropriate and you do need to be considered when you're using public money. However, if on balance it is a risk that will help us reach a new audience segment, drive growth for our content or our products, that is a good risk to take.
00:21:36
Speaker
I have an incredibly supportive manager. So the managing director at the ABC, David Anderson is very, very supportive of the work that the team do. And there is no doubt within the team, we have a lot of incredibly smart and creative people who do come up with new ideas. And we definitely try as much as we can. I'm thinking of some of my team listening to this going, but we didn't do that. And, and don't get me wrong. We can't do everything. I go back to public funds, heavily scrutinized organization. We do need.
00:22:04
Speaker
to ensure that we take considered risks and we're aware of, again, the worst case scenario if we do something in market. But provided we've thought through that, you know, if it is about finding a new audience or growing the audience for our content, there is very little we couldn't do. Yeah, so it's a measured test and learn situation. It is a measured test and learn. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned something which triggered a thought for me that
00:22:26
Speaker
There's a lot of fear in the creative and media industry at the moment with AI. Someone sent me an article yesterday and it's sort of gotten to the point where I just can't even read them anymore. It's like the agencies are dead, AI is taking over. And I do feel like we're in this cultural situation where people are feeling
00:22:47
Speaker
overwhelmed, you know, just linking back to that being kind and the mental health training, because there's this sense of no one can get an edge to hold on to because everything is moving so fast. And every time you just feel like you've gotten a handle on something, something new comes in or some global drama comes in and there's this real sense of fatigue. How do you stay innovative, you know, when you know that there is so much social and cultural fatigue?
00:23:14
Speaker
Yeah, look, I think that's a great question and summation of the challenge at the moment. And while I think everything brings challenges, I always flip it and go, but with the challenges come opportunities. Like right now, we're looking at Gen AI, we're looking at the scale of misinformation, we're worried about the role of news in particular in the future. I go,
00:23:33
Speaker
That is an ABC opportunity because there is no more trusted media organization in Australia than the ABC. So when people aren't sure what's going on, both here and in the rest of the world, we know that we are the first place that they come. So in a world of information where Gen IR can create, you know, videos and stories that are so hard to tell from the truth, you need an organization like the ABC during that and you need to have
00:23:58
Speaker
journalists on the ground and you need to have access to live content because so much harder to fake live content. So we have all the tools at our disposal to actually help against some of these challenges. So in that sort of environment, one, no place I'd rather be than ABC.
00:24:15
Speaker
And to how do we flip all those challenges and look at the opportunities that they create. And there's no doubt with every bit of new tech that comes through, there is an opportunity. There is a new way to connect with audiences, a new way to tell stories, you know, a new area to actually explore. So I've always thought about challenges more as opportunities and how do we think about that in a way that does
00:24:38
Speaker
the right thing for the organization and create opportunities for our staff. Yeah, and align to your, I suppose, the values and inherent benefits of whatever the brand is. So for people listening who, you know, manage other big brands, I know listening to Mim Hason talk on the MI3 podcast about her experience in leading Suncorp through that.
00:24:59
Speaker
process, just really looking at, you know, similar threads around a sense of empathy, but also taking that opportunity to say, this is actually a brand building opportunity. And, you know, of course, Suncorp were privileged enough to have the budget to do that. But if you can hold strong to the values of your organization and be authentic in wanting to help and support consumers and end users in that journey, then you're actually going to come out. We're in the long run. Yeah. And I think the beauty of working at the ABC is
00:25:27
Speaker
you actually exist for public good. So it's authentic to your organization to do the right thing for the Australian public. So in some ways, I often feel that the best part about my job is
00:25:40
Speaker
I'm just doing what is actually the right thing to do and make sure people are aware
Leadership at ABC
00:25:44
Speaker
of me. Yeah. You know, it sounds easy, but lots of people don't do that. So credit, credit to you. I want to ask, is there a time where you feel regret for not just doing it?
00:25:57
Speaker
So I try not to live with regrets. That doesn't mean I don't make bad decisions. I've certainly made a couple of, you know, questionable career and life choices at different points, but I always choose not to regret it. I choose to think of it as it's a stepping stone to doing something else. I've learned a lot from that. I will be a better person on the other side of that. And I think all the little, you know, the breadcrumbs of your life lead you to the point that you're at. And I'm very happy with the point that I've got to at this point. I love working for the ABC. It's an incredible organization.
00:26:26
Speaker
have an amazing family and love my husband and daughter. And, you know, I've been able throughout all of this to navigate a balance between, you know, a job that I love, but also staying healthy personally, being able to exercise and get outside. So while I don't think every decision I've made has been the best one, I don't regret them because together they've got me to where I'm at. And I'm very happy with that point. That being said,
00:26:52
Speaker
hindsight is 2020, you know, if I could go back and unwind a couple of those, you know, may have led me to where I want to be in a slightly quicker fashion. Possibly. Yeah. I want to ask about being a brand boss. Now we had a lot of internal discussions about the tagline boss women leading big brands. And there's always a lot of contention around why do you have to associate women and bosses? And, you know, we had a lot of discussion internally about that.
00:27:20
Speaker
When you are leading such a significant team, so over 160 people, you know, you mentioned Byron Sharp in another podcast, and, you know, you would be familiar with having worked in Procter & Gamble and Coca-Cola, you know, the role of distinctive assets. The responsibility that you would have in leading some of these, not only the iconic ABC, which is already an iconic Australian trusted brand, but
00:27:47
Speaker
sort of brands that sit underneath that, you know, the likes of Bluey, there's the archers that I remember personally from, you know, the windows from Play School, you know, the drums of Triple J. What level of responsibility do you feel for those, especially those that during lockdown, people were looking to for comfort and security?
00:28:06
Speaker
Yeah. Look, I feel incredibly responsible for what we do at the ABC just because I love it so much. And I'm so passionate about it. I grew up in country, Queensland in small towns and in my world, you know, we had one TV station, one radio network, and that was the ABC and it was our lifeline to the world. So I am so passionate about the role the ABC plays. So I feel part of my job is making sure the ABC continues to play that important role.
00:28:34
Speaker
not just for my time here, but for generations to come. So I have to leave the place in a better way than I found it. And I do feel a responsibility ensuring as part of that that the ABC stays relevant to future generations. So in terms of the content that we make, in terms of the services that we offer,
00:28:51
Speaker
And a key part of my job is really understanding, changing audience behaviors, making sure we're shifting our services and our access to audiences as part of that, making sure that we are thinking about that as we evolve our content. And also we are looking forward and going, if audiences are doing less of this, so less broadcast TV, how do we make sure we have video and screen content available in other mediums that are equally going to reach them with their changing habits?
00:29:19
Speaker
And that's not all on a video on demand platform. That is also thinking about the role of, you know, social media platforms like YouTube or TikTok or, you know, Facebook reels. There are more and more ways to reach audiences. The ABC exists for all Australians. We do have to connect with a very broad and disparate group of Australians. So we have to be in multiple places. And part of my job is ensuring
00:29:44
Speaker
people, our content makers, who are incredibly talented and skilled and actually come up with all of those great ideas or partner with production companies that come up with all those great ideas. I have to also have them thinking about that broader impact and how do we reach people who may not be coming to our platforms? How do we make sure we stay relevant for all Australians given the changing complexity and fragmentation of the media landscape?
Evolving Skills in Media
00:30:07
Speaker
and the fact not everyone will come to us and sometimes we have to go to them. Yeah, I mean, Lisa, it is an exceptionally complex role that you have. There are not many roles in this country specifically where you have the complexity of heritage, so legacy, the breadth of end users or the audience. And, you know, ABCs is one of those brands that
00:30:29
Speaker
If you're in your sixties and seventies and you grew up with a certain type of show, they still want that sort of content. But of course, for a younger audience, no one wants to watch content that long anymore. So, you know, creating multi layered across multi platforms and multi generations of people across all of those. I mean, I think correct me if I'm wrong, but something like five TV stations, 50 plus radio, plus your social podcast platforms, plus the digital products. That's absolutely enormous.
00:31:00
Speaker
Yeah. And even in my time at the ABC, I have seen the shift from TV being our largest reaching platform to digital becoming our largest reaching platform. And our biggest, I call it our front door, our biggest front door in terms of the number of people that come to us on a weekly basis.
00:31:16
Speaker
is now our digital news offer. You know, that's a massive shift. And as an organization, that's required a level of resource shift, quite different thinking, people in different roles. I play obviously but one small part in that. You know, there's a lot of different parts of the ABC that have continued to evolve to help deliver that. But
00:31:34
Speaker
go back to media is constantly changing. So one of the things we have to do to stay relevant is continue to evolve with it. Yeah. And I suppose when you have an in-house team, that's just a lot of ongoing training. It is a lot of ongoing training. And I will say I'm incredibly fortunate. I have a great leadership team and they are surrounded by equally, you know, very strong teams. And we do a lot to make sure, I think my, my leaders, to be fair, they do a lot to make sure their teams continue to stay
00:32:03
Speaker
up to date with the changes, with best practice, with upskilling. And we do evolve the teams too. You know, there are new skills that you might need to bring in. So I think there's no such thing as a, you know, said and forget strategy or a said and forget structure anymore. It's how do we keep evolving in line with how the market's evolving.
00:32:21
Speaker
We're possible a hundred percent. We try and upskill our teams, but there are certain skills that you will need to bring in. So right at the moment, we're doing a lot of work in the data space. GA 360 is closing down. Thank you, Google. So we're building our own data infrastructure and there's a lot of skills that we need as part of that. And we have an amazing team working on it, but that is a whole different way of working to how we've traditionally worked. Similarly, we're looking at our MarTech stack at the moment because
00:32:50
Speaker
How we connect with one-to-one audiences continues to evolve as well. We have more digital audiences. We have login for all of our key products and that sort of personalization, again, that's a growing area for the team. We've had to bring some specific skills in.
00:33:05
Speaker
We have an amazing team in that space now, but yeah, we have to keep evolving. And I imagine when you're at the forefront of that level of innovation and technology, do you ever find that the education sector hasn't caught up with the need? Is this a pain point? We do a lot of work with a few universities, like in educating the future generation of creative thinkers and
00:33:27
Speaker
It's often a frustration point at that level that the way that they're being taught is not really in line with industry expectations anymore. But I imagine for you at the forefront of changing technology, which is, you know, a monthly situation, you can't get people into these unless you're doing internships. Yeah, I think.
00:33:44
Speaker
there's always going to be a challenge, a lag challenge that education is slightly behind where industry is. I think of degrees now as an aptitude for somebody to apply themselves to learning rather than necessarily they're going to give them the skills they need on the job. A lot of the skills on the job can be taught and a lot of my team, I think,
00:34:06
Speaker
100% themselves embrace an area to really learn and grow. And we do offer a number of different learning vehicles for that. But there's no doubt that in a world that's moving as quickly as ours, it's a challenge sometimes to find the right skill mix for the immediate thing that you need to
Advice for Women Leaders
00:34:26
Speaker
do. And if I look at something like Martek right now, and we're going, wow, again, there's no best
00:34:33
Speaker
Everybody's trialing different things. It is going to be a little bit of test and learn. How do you de-risk it? How do you, in some ways, take it into sort of bite-sized chunks?
00:34:42
Speaker
So that you can be a bit agile, but we partner a lot more now with other divisions. So we just got to ask about the cross-functional you've spoken before about sort of enterprise design thinking, which is all around a cross-functional learning, but also about iterating, coming together, developing, being user centered, and then, you know, sort of circling that back around.
00:35:03
Speaker
Yeah, so very passionate and actually went to Stanford to learn a lot more about design thinking because I think it's such an important discipline for the future. Just the framing of how to ask the questions around problems to solve and how you really think through a problem in such a complex world that doesn't have an obvious solution.
00:35:25
Speaker
I really liked the discipline around going through a design thinking process. I also think back to our point around the risks of AI, certainly in the creative communication industry, the further upstream you are in process strategy methodology, the more I believe that the agencies are going to be offering value that way. And it would be the same for internal versus the actual execution of content. Yes, there's no doubt.
00:35:51
Speaker
understanding the challenge, the audience, you know, that that's number one and the insight to also help solve the challenge. Yeah. There will always be and continue to be an evolving way to actually implement and execute on that. But understanding the problem is the number one challenge and being able to articulate that. And that is not a university led skill. That is a process led. And I've learned a lot. Actually, I've had a incredibly talented team member who is a real leader in enterprise design.
00:36:21
Speaker
And he's really helped me to actually think through for every problem, you know, a really good process of, yeah, what is the problem to solve? How are you actually bringing people together to help to solve that? No longer really is one person best placed to solve any complex problems. Big complex problems require a diversity of thinking, different people to come together, different people to collaborate.
00:36:44
Speaker
So we're really trying to make sure we continue to evolve the way that we solve problems like that. And, you know, I mentioned the Martek stack earlier, that's not my problem to solve. You know, there's no way I could have the technical literacy and capability of understanding how all the different products work.
00:37:03
Speaker
We need different people to come together to help work through that challenge. And that'll be across my team. It'll be across our digital product and technology teams. And it's probably also going to involve data people and marketing people and everyone coming together to make sure we have the right end solution for the people who are going to use it. But we really also understand the technical integration with the data that we have. A big thing for me about leadership in this day and age is understanding you don't have all the answers yourself. You have to bring the right people together to help solve that problem.
00:37:32
Speaker
Yeah, I read that you mentioned that less than 50% of what will make you successful as a marketer is actually not the marketing part. It's more about the leadership, the comm skills and the EQ.
00:37:46
Speaker
Yeah. And I would say in my job right now, 90% of what I do is not marketing. And to be fair, my team is far more diverse. We've got a fantastic audience. You don't have time for marketing. Yeah. And I have an incredibly competent marketing team. And a great head of marketing, really strong marketing leaders. So I know they are doing the best marketing job possible.
00:38:09
Speaker
My job is thinking about those really complex problems to solve and who do we need to put together to help solve those and that audience behaviour change and how do we need to be pivoting to actually take advantage of that. Yeah. So we've talked a little bit about, because I was going to lead into a question around
00:38:27
Speaker
the tenets of being a female leader. Do you think that there's quite honestly any difference in applying gender to leadership? Do you think that women coming up the ranks, so say a few years out of uni, should or could be doing anything different to help elevate their careers?
Continuous Growth and Feedback
00:38:48
Speaker
Yes, I think my personal experience has been
00:38:53
Speaker
I always felt you had to earn the seat at the table and women tended to work harder because we just didn't have the innate confidence that we deserve to be there. And I think the best thing that younger female leaders coming through can do is
00:39:09
Speaker
be more like the men and know that you actually have a right to be there. You're in the position, take it and own it. And again, no one knows miraculously all the answers anymore. So you have as much right to put forward ideas as anybody else and, and, and do that and use that and just, I guess, own your experience and your capability and feel confident to put your ideas forward. The challenge for women has historically been we have wanted
00:39:38
Speaker
to know that we have all the answers. All the ducks are in a row. I hear that often. I'll apply for that job when I've done this extra course, when I've got my child into childcare or when I've done my stint overseas rather than just going for it anyway and doing that with a sense of confidence.
00:39:58
Speaker
Completely. And I feel I'm a living embodiment of someone who thought they had to demonstrate lots of success to actually get that seat. So, you know, I have a degree, I have a master's, but realistically, I'm still the same person and to be honest, I have the same capability as I did right at the start. I have used all of those to help my confidence. I just want the credibility to back it up. I hope future generations of female leaders don't feel they need that because I've spent a lot of time in learning institutions and I do believe a lot.
00:40:28
Speaker
in life time learning and constantly keeping your skills up. But is that essential to have a seat at the table? No. I want to ask, is there a time where you feel like you could have been more of that leader and you weren't? I know you said you're not filled with regret, but there must be micro times where you feel you've walked out of a meeting or you've potentially even walked out of a job feeling like you wish you had have taken that advice.
00:40:55
Speaker
First of all, I'll go back to, I think all humans are flawed and I don't think I've ever walked out of a meeting and not thought, oh, I should have said that. And that's because at the end of the day, I am quite an introspective person and I'm always my harshest critic. So I don't think I've ever done anything and not thought I could have done that a bit better, but I use that as a learning to apply to the next thing rather than a regret from that thing. So you turn it into the opportunity for next time. I turn it into the opportunity.
00:41:22
Speaker
there isn't a meeting that I go to or a job that I've had that I haven't thought, Oh my gosh, I should have said that, or I should have done that. But, and I always want to be a better person and I always want to be a better leader. Am I a great leader in every single situation? No. Again, I always reflect after a meeting or after a situation that I'm in on what could I have done better. And I've learned that from having a great coach who always says just,
00:41:47
Speaker
just learn, stop and learn and just don't keep running too quickly. And now I take the time whenever I'm in an important meeting or a difficult situation to afterwards stop and go, how could I have done that differently? And there is always a learning. You know, if you think about the book Radical Candor, I'm not sure if you read that, but the opportunity of opening up for feedback is something that I'm
00:42:10
Speaker
personally on that journey because I think it's really important to encourage other people to then do the same. We went and saw Adam Grant as a team recently down in Melbourne and was his first time in Australia. And, you know, he talks a lot about opening up for feedback and keeping that dialogue going both ways. So it's certainly a discipline that I am on on the journey of. But I love the I love the way that you reframe things as an opportunity. I think there's a really great
00:42:37
Speaker
learning in there. And I must say, I actually do love feedback. I know a lot of people say that, but they don't really want it. I actually, I really like it. And I think earlier in my career, I used to take it personally. Now I realize it's actually somebody being vulnerable. They're coming to me and regardless of the impact,
00:42:55
Speaker
they're giving me their honest opinion. I love that they feel that they can do it. That means they trust. There's a high level of trust. And I love that I will learn from it. And I've had some harsh feedback in the last few years. And I go back to you, I am certainly not perfect. And we're in a changing environment. And sometimes that can be difficult to navigate.
00:43:13
Speaker
And I have loved every bit of feedback I've received, because it's like, great. I love you, trusted. You can come and talk to me about that. And more importantly, I've learned. I've learned that I can do that better. Yeah. And I think it also speaks to, I suppose, a sense of trust that I, as you mentioned, that people
00:43:30
Speaker
I feel comfortable, like the space is safe enough to open up. But I think it also debunks the myth that a leader needs to be autocratic and in control and they have this sense of power that's unpenetrable. Whereas the sort of leadership that you're talking about is about, yeah, vulnerability. It's about the EQ. It's about empathy, which is something quite different. Yes. And I think if you work in an industry, particularly like media,
00:43:59
Speaker
where change is constant and adaptability becomes a really core skill set, how do you adapt? You get feedback. You get other people's thoughts. You invite opinion. To do that, you need trust. You need people comfortable to come forward and suggest different ways. I don't think you can succeed in an area like media going forward unless you have that sort of leadership style. I look at some of the other leaders that I work with at the ABC and they have it in spades. In fact,
00:44:29
Speaker
The two long-term managing directors I've worked for here, Mark Scott first and David Anderson now, they have EQ higher than anyone I've ever met, like both of them. And they're great leaders because they don't feel they need to know the answers. They need to surround themselves with people who can help work through these challenging times. And they both did that incredibly well. And David still does. Yeah, I suppose that filters down. So when we talk about the importance of
00:44:54
Speaker
of culture and fostering innovative environments, that's the sort of behavior and action beyond just a set of values on a wall or in a PowerPoint that no one ever looks at again.
Personal Challenges and Resilience
00:45:06
Speaker
That filters down when people feel that level of safety and security. So I think that's really important.
00:45:11
Speaker
I wanted to ask you about what you wish you could have read or watched as a younger version of yourself. I know that the ABC does a lot of work around helping people learn and grow and you've talked about upskilling and you've got internship programs. I was reading about the Upstart program that you launched, which looks really exciting. Talk to me about what sort of advice you wish you could have had or just something that was pivotal to you.
00:45:39
Speaker
You're going to say Brene Brown, aren't you? Yeah, we've talked a bit about Brene Brown and I have to say because she has had such an impact on my leadership and the way I show up and the way I think it's OK to be with my and also with my husband, to be honest. Transcends work and culture. It does. It basically she gives you permission to just show up as yourself. And I think that's been so powerful. And I fully acknowledge I did not do that for a long time in my career.
00:46:06
Speaker
I thought I had to have the answers. I thought I had to be the most confident, best presenter in the room and have solutions to everything.
00:46:15
Speaker
One, it's just not possible anymore. It doesn't get the best out of your team. It doesn't get the best outcomes for your organization. And it's actually not the best leadership style. I don't know if it ever was, but it certainly isn't
Favorite ABC Content
00:46:29
Speaker
anymore. It doesn't serve community expectations anymore, does it? No. And it doesn't work in a changing environment either, because
00:46:37
Speaker
You aren't bringing together the best people to make a decision. You're assuming you have to make it all the time. And that's just not possible. I want to ask, Bite Big, it starts with two Bs. Do you have a B moment that resonates for you or a word even? Yeah, I love the word brave and I like it because I think it embodies what you need to be to be vulnerable and to show up in really difficult situations.
00:47:05
Speaker
I've had a couple of instances in my life where I've been in a really, really difficult situation. And I've thought to myself, I can sit back here or I can step in. And I've stepped in and it's been really hard. But in retrospect, it was the best thing that I could do. One of those is a personal situation that quite a few of my team members know because I was hiking in Africa, in the Fish River Canyon, which is a desert. We ran out of water.
00:47:34
Speaker
and we were just in a group of us in an incredibly difficult situation. And I was able to think about, okay, what skills can I bring to this situation? I can run, I grew up in a hot climate, I can run in the heat, you know, we're 50 kilometers from anywhere, I can probably run 50 kilometers. And I ran out and it was very hard. Did you run 50 kilometers? Yeah, I did, in a desert. How much does that take you? In hiking boots.
00:48:01
Speaker
So hardest thing I've ever done taught me a lot about myself and my capability and persistence when things are down and that you actually can. Because it's not just the running run, it's the fear of where you're running to. And not knowing anything, not knowing if you'll make it, not knowing where you're running to, not knowing if anyone will be there.
00:48:19
Speaker
And at the time, super hard, I'm not going to pretend it was easy. But I look back on it and I go, you know, I stepped into the void and I was brave. And that really wasn't just a situation. You know, and that's that's obviously the best outcome in that situation. And after that, I've got to be honest, there's no decision I've ever had where I thought we can't
Supporting Can Too Foundation
00:48:41
Speaker
get through this. It's like,
00:48:42
Speaker
It's harder than that. I think if you've ever been in a really difficult situation and obviously you get through, the learning that you have is everything else is achievable. Yeah, that feels like a great life leveler.
00:48:57
Speaker
Before we wrap up, I just want to ask, what is your favourite piece of ABC content from a child and now? As a child, I have to go back to the the greats. So Play School, you know, was was part of my upbringing and I love Play School. I still to this day. Yeah, we'll turn Play School on every now and again, just as a reminder of
00:49:18
Speaker
the importance of the ABC and the importance of the ABC for children. Today, though, we make so much incredible content and it would be remiss of me to pick a favourite. So I'll mention a couple. I love Master Dogs. Not only do I love dogs, but it showcases the best of rural Australia and
00:49:34
Speaker
the people that get brought to life and the lives that they lead, I find that fascinating. I think it's part of Australia that everybody should see and understand. We do some great dramas and I love Mystery Road because not only is it a compelling story that you could only tell in Australia, has a fabulous indigenous lead, but it uses Australia almost as a character.
00:50:01
Speaker
drops. It's so cinematic in the way that it's shot. You see the beauty and spectacular harshness of Australia, and that in and of itself is part of the story. And I love that you could not shoot Mystery Road anywhere else but Australia.
00:50:17
Speaker
Well, I want to say thank you, Lisa. It's been such a privilege not only to be in the ABC offices here in Sydney, but for allowing me to hear about how you show up and bite big and how you aspire and leave your mantras of just do it and be kind. Some of the things I've been squirreling notes away on is just the sentiment around not being afraid to fail. I think that's a really important
00:50:43
Speaker
lesson, especially for young women coming up through education, but taking appropriate levels of risk, I suppose. And also the way that you have a mentality around reframing problems into opportunities. I think that that's also really important because we know, I mean, most of our audience is women. We know women are their own harshest critic. And so being able to reframe something when you make an error
00:51:09
Speaker
or you just really fuck something up and you feel really terrible about it, just knowing that there's an out in a reframe to say, hey, yeah, that wasn't my best day, or I didn't deliver it in the best way that I wanted to, but what can I learn from that opportunity rather than
00:51:27
Speaker
moving into self-loathing, which I know a lot of women do. The parting piece around showing up as yourself and the lesson around not questioning your right to be there. I think that, you know, if I could get a tattoo, if I could give away free tattoos for women, that would be the one. Don't question your right to be there. Like, just lead the way you want to lead. Learn the way that you want to learn.
00:51:50
Speaker
don't feel like you need to be too brash not brash enough you know women have so harshly judged and you know we saw in the media recently with Kate Middleton in her you know she wasn't in the media now she was in the media and then all of that you know the woman was just ill just needed to be left alone but it seems unfortunately that women are.
00:52:07
Speaker
held under more harsh lights than men, unfortunately. So I think, yeah, they're really important lessons to take away. Before we wrap up, it's important to mention that Whitebeak is a podcast produced by women, for women. To show our gratitude, we donate $500 on your behalf to a chosen support charity, and you have chosen the Can Too Foundation, which is an independent health promotion charity committed to funding cancer research. Just want to tell us a little bit about why you chose that.
00:52:34
Speaker
Yeah, I guess I've had some some friends affected by cancer. So that certainly made me quite passionate about fundraising in this space. They also run an incredible program for people if you want to learn to swim long distance or you want to learn to do a marathon. So I love that they combine fundraising with encouraging
00:52:55
Speaker
people to learn a skill that will or an activity that will be really useful for them in life. I did their marathon program. First time I ran a marathon, it was fantastic. And again, just gives you a level of confidence going through a program like that, that you can achieve anything that you want to do. And you meet a great bunch of people and you're fundraising at the same time. So I feel it's win-win. I think they're an incredible organization.
Episode Conclusion
00:53:19
Speaker
well, ticking multiple boxes. Well, we will definitely put that in our show notes. So thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure. I've been your host, Amber Bonney, and until next episode, I hope you bite big and you like hell. Thank you, Lisa. Thanks, Amber.