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Amber Bites Big with Lisa Cox - Author, speaker and inclusive communications consultant
105 Plays8 months ago
In Episode 2 of Season 2, Amber Bonney Bites Big with guest co-host Lisa Cox - one of Australia's leading authors, TEDx speakers and inclusive communications consultant & disability advocates.
Inspired by Amber's own Mantra, "bite big and chew like hell", in this episode we talk about how Lisa's early career has influenced her efforts in championing inclusion for people with disabilities, particularly in media, since a brain haemorrhage triggered a series of events that left her with both visual and invisible disabilities herself.
Amber and Lisa discuss how her two mantra's, "Worse things happen", and "Start with the small changes to create a tidal wave" have helped give her perspective on a daily basis, whilst the change we need won't happen overnight, the small changes combined by herself and others can create a huge ripple affect and the need to celebrate these small wins.
Lisa shares insight on how she shifted from survival after her series of events left with overwhelming challenges and pivoted into an advocacy role using disadvantage for change, changing her own inner stereotypes of disability to helping change industry and the way disability was being represented. Listen to one of Australia’s most inspirational marketing services professionals who has broken the mould of what our industry looks like, and has demonstrated through data-led evidence how embracing diversity makes good business sense.
Bite Big has donated $500 to the chosen charity Youngcare a not-for-profit that is revolutionising the way young people with high care disability live to give them freedom, dignity and choice.
If you would like to know more about our host Amber Bonney her business The Edison Agency or co-host Lisa Cox you can connect and follow these boss women via their socials links below!
Links:
Lisa's LinkedIn
Lisa's Instagram
Lisa's Website
Lisa's TedXTalk
Unstereotype Alliance
The Valuable 500
Diversity Australia
The Edison Agency's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's Instagram
Amber's LinkedIn
Amber's Instagram
Credits
Main Host: Amber Bonney
Producer: Niki Beeston
Sound Engineer: Jack Gooden, Gasworks Brisbane
Post Production : 17th Street Audio
Recommended
Transcript
Acknowledgment and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
On behalf of the Bite Big team and my co-host today, Lisa Cox, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are recording this episode on. The Turbo, Yagara and Yagumbi people of Minjin country, otherwise known as Brisbane. We recognise First Peoples Australia as the original storytellers, designers and artists of this country and we pay our respects to their elders past, present and emerging. I feel very grateful today to experience this beautiful sunny land.
00:00:37
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Season 2, Episode 2 of Bite Big, a podcast about boss women leading big brands. I'm your host, Amber Bonney, and I'm coming today from the beautiful and always sunny Brisbane, where I'm humbled to be joined by one of Australia's most inspirational speakers and advocates for social change, Lisa Cox. Welcome, Lisa. I am, but really great to be here.
00:00:59
Speaker
Excellent I am just about to read out I wish I could have memorized this but I don't have that cognitive capacity a couple of glory highlights of yours and then we're gonna get stuck in so Lisa you have a pretty remarkable story that will no doubt captivate our listeners because
00:01:16
Speaker
You began your career in advertising working on global brands in a pretty traditional pathway I'd imagine but in 2005 at the age of 24 your life took a pretty unexpected turn and that's led to you now being recognized Australia-wide and internationally.
00:01:32
Speaker
as a disability advocate and an award-winning advertising expert.
Lisa Cox's Journey to Advocacy
00:01:37
Speaker
You're one of Australia's leading authors, TEDx speakers and inclusive communication consultants. You've certainly broken the mould of what the industry should look like and I imagine you believe you've probably got still a lot more work to do. And how you embrace diversity as you talk about in your TED Talk, it just makes good commercial sense and I'm really looking forward to getting under the skin of that.
00:01:58
Speaker
You spent a good chunk of your career as a disruptor advocating for change in social attitudes towards disability and helping reshape the way disability is represented in the workplace and in popular culture and how that shapes society's perceptions. By combining your professional career and lived experience, you're helping businesses to better represent disability in their businesses, in practice and in the sort of content that they are creating.
00:02:23
Speaker
It's pretty fair to say that you epitomize the spirit of what this podcast stands for in biting big. So let's kick off and get under the skin of your mantra. Looking forward to it. Very excited. Now, to give you a bit of context, this podcast, the name Bite Big came from my personal mantra, which was all about biting big and chewing like hell.
00:02:45
Speaker
Now in my life, that has served me well and also got me into a lot of trouble. And when we were brainstorming about the sentiment of what this podcast was going to be, we thought actually focusing on individuals' mantras and how that's helped shape their career and decision making and how it might have served them and not served them, we thought was a really interesting and I'm pleased to say you have two. Are you happy for me to read them out?
00:03:12
Speaker
I'm all that happy for you too. I know when you ask, I'm like, oh God, I've got a few, but trying to narrow it down. Trying to narrow it down. So we've got two. All right. So the first one is worst things happen. Talk to me about that. Worst things happen is really just something that I'm constantly having to tell myself to get some perspective. So nowadays I'm on the computer all day answering emails, clients, all the shit that could go wrong.
00:03:39
Speaker
incorporate little things. I try to just give myself some perspective on all of that and go, you know what, worst things happen. Because 19 years ago, 18 years ago, I had a huge health crisis, which I'm more than happy to talk about in detail if you want me
Overcoming Health Challenges
00:03:56
Speaker
to. But that's our life. I'm going to come for three weeks on a life swap for two months, over a year in hospital, die twice. And I'm like, yeah.
00:04:04
Speaker
You know, if that email didn't send, it kind of sucks, but worst things happen. If anyone can claim that, I definitely think that you can justifiably claim that. And I, I definitely am keen to understand the impact of that for you. The second one is start with the small changes to create a tidal wave. Before we get stuck into that, I can definitely say I'm an advocate of your work and I follow you on all of your socials and I can see how that has influenced the way that you've positioned yourself.
00:04:33
Speaker
professionally and personally. Let's talk about how those two sort of go hand in hand and is that something that you think about on a daily basis as well? I know I do think about them on a daily basis because sometimes with regard to, you know, setting small goals, what can I influence? What can I change as one person, as a small group of people? As a ripple effect.
00:04:59
Speaker
Exactly, because that was how I started off working in agency or with agencies. I thought, how we look at disability representation in public culture, it needs to change. And I would love to wave a magic wand and change that overnight, but that's just not going to happen. So I'm like, well, let's break it down into the really, really small goals. I care if we can, or for myself personally, I can influence this tiny, tiny little fraction of thing and
00:05:26
Speaker
And we add all those up and we're seeing, with a lot of other people doing the same sorts of things, seeing changes that we wouldn't have seen. I know I certainly didn't see them 18 years ago when I acquired my disabilities. I was like, where is the representation? And now Kmart has dolls.
00:05:44
Speaker
that when they were around when I was a kid with disabilities, there's a little bit of representation in advertising needs to be a shit ton more. There's small changes and it's sometimes easy to go, well, there's, you know, the big thing hasn't changed. But yeah, it's nice if we can just celebrate the small wins along the way. Along the way. I like that.
00:06:05
Speaker
Well, let's go back to 2005, if you don't mind. I suppose giving people context on how you're on this journey. That'd be great to hear. Sure. So in 2005, as you mentioned, I followed a I felt a traditional path, went to uni, got my degrees.
00:06:22
Speaker
started in corporate was working in mainstream advertising agencies national international brands loving it thought I had the dream job and would often tell people that I'm the luckiest person because I get I get paid to write and be creative I mean how good is that
00:06:38
Speaker
And then several years later, I was at Melbourne Airport one morning, and I had a brain hemorrhage, like a stroke, and spent the next three weeks in a coma, two months on life support, and every year in hospital after that. So that first year in hospital, I was so bored, but that's when a lot of my surgeries took place. So my left leg, all of my right toes, none of my fingertips were amputated, and had heart surgery twice, a total hip replacement, and that was,
00:07:07
Speaker
That was fun. And then now because of the brain, the brain injury, every stroke is different, but I have permanent disabilities, invisible disabilities. Sorry, I'm over 25% blind. My speech has been affected some days worse than others. All those, all those sorts of, sorts of things as well. Unbelievable. I mean, there's not many stories like yours. And I think that's why when I mentioned before about you epitomizing this sense of bite big,
00:07:37
Speaker
When we met last year on an industry panel advocating for diversity and inclusion and gender equity, that was the first time I had come across you and then of course, you know, started following you on LinkedIn and on Instagram. And I just couldn't believe what a force you were. And not only do you seem to have a dark sense of humor, which
00:07:57
Speaker
resonated with me, but also in your persistence for change really resonated as well. And that's when we thought from a big perspective that you would be an amazing host. So it's so great to be here with you.
00:08:12
Speaker
So let's talk about worst things happen. So you mentioned that that is something that you remind yourself of daily. And I'm interested to understand, is this something that gives you, so you talked about giving you perspective, but does it also give you courage and momentum to just keep going even when you feel like you don't want to anymore?
00:08:35
Speaker
I think so. There have been plenty of times where I have chronic fatigue, so I just haven't felt like going because I've got 10 no's in a row. But I think that growing up, playing a lot of competitive sport and then being a writer in agency for so many years and was just told, no, no, no, no.
00:08:55
Speaker
That wasn't a bad thing, that was just building up. You sort of get used to that. You just get used to it. So by the time the proverbial hit the fan and getting out of hospital and going to, whether it was CEOs, CMOS or something like that, and going, you know, representation and advertising disability, it needs to happen. What do you think? And just getting, no. Why would we do that? I mean, so back then, if you're thinking 2005, at what point were you shifting from
00:09:21
Speaker
just survival in dealing with life being so different to starting to pivot to using that disadvantage for change. It was a slow and evolving pivot. I just remember the point at which I was told, you're going to have your leg amputated, spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair.
00:09:44
Speaker
have all of these disabilities, long story short, I was absolutely devastated, but I later realised that that was because I had over 24 years worth of media stereotypes in my head. What I thought disability was going to mean, I mean, it means something different to everybody else, but for me personally, it's nothing like that at all. I've had the assumption that I'd never get married, I'd never find meaningful and gainful employment, all of these sorts of things have an active social life.
00:10:14
Speaker
And on one hand, I was balancing gratitude that I'm alive. I'm not supposed to be here. Quite literally, I had died in hospital. The head of the largest intensive care unit in Southern Hemisphere said, Lisa is the sixth person here. She won't be alive in the morning. Come to Melbourne.
00:10:30
Speaker
So I had that and just going, how lucky am I? But at the same time, I was so depressed because I'm like, life is just going to be shit with disabilities. And realizing that that wasn't the case over years, I couldn't change my disabilities, what had happened. They were all permanent. My legs not going to go back. But with my professional background, I could do something
00:10:55
Speaker
to change the way disability was being represented because I knew that every year thousands of thousands of people are acquiring disabilities, thousands of parents are being told your child that's going to be born will have disabilities and they too will have that sinking feeling of
00:11:14
Speaker
Oh, fuck, life's over. The projective dread of... Exactly. And I don't want anybody to have to feel like I did. But not only that, when I started going out into public after hospital, I thought, if all those thoughts are in my head, then surely there's a lot of people in society who will think the same sorts of things about disability. And unfortunately, those assumptions are correct because all of a sudden, I was being congratulated
00:11:42
Speaker
just of being out in public and... Yeah, the benchmark suddenly got low. It got so low and, well, my experience with employment, that's a whole podcast again. Wow, yeah. This assumption that we're all, and again, everyone's different, but this only capable of entry-level work and those sorts of things,
00:12:03
Speaker
I was incredibly grateful to be in a position to have an influence in changing that. I couldn't change everything. I'm not the board of the ACA or anything like that. But I could do my little bit by combining my professional background and my lived experience.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, I'm sure there's thousands of Australians that are grateful for that because not many people have that experience in marketing or media and communications, necessarily. So being able to use that voice for change. And we spoke before about, you know, corporate Australia before we started recording. And there's still so much work to do, obviously, representation. And we'll get to your TEDx talk
The Importance of Disability Inclusion in Business
00:12:46
Speaker
soon. But I want to understand
00:12:48
Speaker
Are there times when, you know, if we think about the premise of a mantra is about repetition, you know, it's, it's something becoming influence or habit based on repetition. Are there times where you feel like the responsibility of
00:13:03
Speaker
change for your second mantra of start with a small change, just create a tidal wave. You feel like that's overwhelming. Yeah, for sure. And some of that is to do with the nature of advocacy, advocacy fatigue at schools. So whether you're advocating for disability rights or some sort of human rights, women's rights, et cetera, just constantly plugging away with those same messages can get overwhelming. I think this pressure to
00:13:33
Speaker
always, always be doing something. And that's why it is firstly so important to have a good support network, whether that's friends, family, colleagues, but also to really emphasise the point that advocacy isn't just a disabled person's business. If we're talking about disability advocacy, it's everyone's business. That applies to women's rights, any sorts of human rights. It's not just the role of the woman or the disabled person or the
00:14:00
Speaker
To fix the change. And that's when it does become a bit overwhelming. But at the same time, I love what I do and if I can help to serve more people than myself and for the greater good. But all, I suppose, change and innovation and anything disruptive comes with pain, right? Like if it was easy, probably more people would do it.
00:14:25
Speaker
probably. But I also, I recognised a real, for want of a better word, a gap in the market, so to speak, where that there were all of these really well-meaning disability advocates saying, you know, this is how it should be done. But for one reason or another, it didn't have that industry experience.
00:14:46
Speaker
And so maybe didn't understand why we were writing or scripting or casting how we were. And on the other hand, there was some really, really well-meaning great corporates who didn't have that lived experience of disability. The two weren't talking. They were connecting. End up with these really tokenistic, horrible, cringe-worthy ads, which all credit to them for trying. But there was sort of no in-between and no communicating with the corporates about
00:15:12
Speaker
Yes it's a nice thing to do for society but it's also really profitable and this is why data says this so it was communicating the same sorts of messages but just just differently I suppose in a more meaningful way yeah and I suppose in a way that feels more authentic and that people with
00:15:30
Speaker
disability feel like, like every minority group feel like they're being heard. Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned it's not the responsibility of that minority group and we're coming up to International Women's Day and it's a, you know, contentious time of year. I get invited to speak on International Women's Day and it's still quite amusing the irony of
00:15:53
Speaker
how many women are responsible for either talking for free or buying the cupcakes or doing the morning teas or facilitating. We're like, hang on a minute. This, yeah, this is the opposite of what, you know, we shouldn't be trying to have to be the ones who solve this problem. This is a broader community problem. I imagine that that's the point that you're making now. I suppose I've also been on the other side where I was, I spent years as that non-disabled creative
00:16:20
Speaker
in corporate who was terrified of staying or doing the wrong thing. So unfortunately, I often did nothing at all, which definitely isn't the right thing to do. But knowing that people really, really wanted to learn, but there was just nobody out there saying, okay, this is how you do it. This is a better way
00:16:43
Speaker
to be inclusive instead, you know, just sending a few do better tweets and angry rants on Twitter. Yeah. But there was no one talking to the business community and those those decision makers. And I say, no, but there are there are a few around the world, but certainly not not much here in Australia that I could find.
00:17:02
Speaker
I mean, it's an interesting insight around people having good intent, but then doing nothing because they're not sure either they're too afraid to say something or they're going to say the wrong thing. What's your advice? And I can imagine you could probably talk for days on this, but, you know, what are the things that people can do either at an individual level or at a corporate level to be taking those right steps forward? OK, well,
00:17:30
Speaker
being unsure and being afraid. That's okay. I get it. That used to be me. So acknowledging that, but also acknowledging that you need to do better and you can do better because it's no longer an excuse or it is just an excuse rather to say, oh, we were afraid of getting it wrong, so we did nothing. One of the keys is to engage with the disability community. So maybe you have someone with disability on staff, which is
00:17:55
Speaker
which is fantastic, who can provide that insight or running a focus group or getting some feedback, if it is an ad for example, getting some feedback on that ad from the disability community, is this authentic? And you're right, I couldn't speak for days about it.
00:18:11
Speaker
It is a little bit nuanced in terms of there's so much from how the script is written to how the camera is panned during the shoot. So many things like that. But part of that is also just getting a disability consultant as part of the process and at the beginning of the process as well, not just at the very end.
00:18:31
Speaker
to say, is this okay? Because I know once I was asked to review something that had already been done cost at least half a million dollars. I was like, fuck no, we can't do that. But it was too late because they're like, oh, too bad. We've already shot it. And I'm like, well,
00:18:51
Speaker
could have brought me on at the beginning. So just having those conversations really early. And I always say when I'm speaking to CMOs or agencies, however, there are no stupid questions because if there were, I guarantee I've asked them at some stage in the past. So ask away. Is this offensive? Is that? All those sorts of things.
00:19:14
Speaker
And I've read in your, um, a lot of your writing that obviously you acknowledge that disability, whether it's, you know, visible or invisible is, is so nuanced and that that might mean asking lots of different groups of people rather than just going, okay, we've got one disability expert and we've got one gender equity, you know, expert and whereas the experience for people are quite different. And that might mean, as you said, you know,
00:19:38
Speaker
good old qualitative focus groups or asking multiple people, getting lots of perspectives, asking people in the business. There's a lot of work that needs to be done, I think, in all culture, whether it's at a corporate level or a small business, on understanding all types of diversity and minority groups and disabilities, because some are invisible and some are visible. And even just asking your staff whether they choose to declare, obviously, is very personal experience for everyone.
00:20:08
Speaker
asking the question if anyone, you know, would like to contribute, maybe that's not even asked at a base level. That's exactly right. People assume disability inclusion generally is, oh, that's thousands of dollars. We're going to have to transform the whole office, put rails up everywhere.
00:20:24
Speaker
going to cost a fortune. But so often, like you said, it's really, really basic, inexpensive things. I know the focus groups I used to run, not that expensive. Asking someone in the office, not that expensive. The things you need to do to be inclusive of disability aren't as big and scary and expensive as you think they are. I wish I could remember the statistic, but last year as a business, we went through the SBS Diversity and Inclusion Program, which is about
00:20:54
Speaker
14 or 15 units. It wasn't particularly expensive. We took the whole team through it really well, put together content. And there were some stats in there around the average cost of making adjustments. And it was something like $75 on average was the adjustment price of making someone more comfortable, whether it was something to do with the desk or it was a rail in the toilets or whatever that
Misconceptions and Economic Benefits
00:21:20
Speaker
was.
00:21:20
Speaker
But the lived experience of the people who are demonstrating on these videos with like it's no one's even asking the question. Don't even write a policy about it. Just have a human to human. Is there anything that we can support you with that would make it easier for you to deliver your job, whether it's at home or.
00:21:38
Speaker
You know on site. That's exactly right. Google's great But it's it's not great when it comes to knowing what the disability community needs because we're all so different Yeah, sure. I don't do stairs anymore But when I went back to agency the only thing that I needed was a lock on the toilet door that they bought from muddings for $5 and
00:22:02
Speaker
I didn't need rails. I didn't need to need all the fancy stuff. But that doesn't mean that somebody else won't need a certain piece of software or something like that. Whatever that is. Yeah. Yeah. I think the important bit there is just asking the question and not to, you know, I suppose generalize that it's going to be the same for everyone.
00:22:21
Speaker
Yeah, because no one knows more about your condition than you do or your situation. Yeah. And maybe for some people it's not a tangible thing. It's just like I need every second Wednesday off for a doctor's appointment or whatever. It's something more along those lines. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:41
Speaker
I want to understand in your role of advocacy and I suppose being a champion for other people as well, what are the highlights for you? What are the things that are really unexpected that you did not think that, you know, back in 2008, for example, were actually going to be a gift? There have been some bigger things like
00:23:06
Speaker
like my TED Talk and I know back in when I first came out of the comb room in 2005 to speak, I had to point at a board of letters and spell it every word letter by letter. And that was how it communicated. And I never imagined that 18 or so years later I'd be on stage doing a TED Talk. So there's big stuff like that and awards and all those sorts of things, but that's just how that's real.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's nice. It has an impact, but the things that really make me go, oh, cool, and show my husband my phone or whatever it is, is when I've got a text message or a message on socials from somebody that says, you've had an impact on my life in some way, or I just read something you wrote or so you speak or something like that.
00:23:55
Speaker
No disrespect to anyone running Ted all the awards, but those sorts of things are far more important to me than some of the other things. I do want to get to the Ted talk because I think that's an incredible achievement.
00:24:10
Speaker
I suppose when you have a sense of agency, there also is a, I suppose, a felt responsibility to use that in a meaningful way, in a meaningful way to, you know, because not everyone has, not everyone has that. And so the more visibility there is of people like yourself, you know, in any advocacy work.
00:24:31
Speaker
the better representation that is, and it just takes, you know, one person to say, oh, well, I can see what Lisa's doing and I can do that too, or my daughter or my child or cousin or sister can do that too. That must be, yeah, quite a quite a gift. Yeah, it's something like I said before, I really enjoy doing and having that that industry background, but also that lived experience of
00:24:55
Speaker
realizing I'm just going to be disabled for the rest of my life, but the only representations I saw of disability were Paralympians and really tragic stories, both of which are true, but they don't even begin to describe how broad and diverse disability is because there are so many of us just living everyday lives. Yeah, banal, normal things. I'm pretty ordinary and pretty boring and do laundry.
00:25:23
Speaker
But none of that is represented and not only the disability community, we don't get to see that, but the ABLE boards, as we call them, they don't see it either. So they think we're all just Paralympians or really tragic
00:25:38
Speaker
people who need pity. And there's absolutely a section of the community that that's correct for, but not for most of us. Well, let's talk about your TED Talk. In the show notes, we will definitely put the link in because if anyone hasn't seen it, I would definitely recommend watching it.
00:25:56
Speaker
How did that come about? I was approached by Ted or TEDx2 to speak. So a few years before that, I'd done a mini picture on stage to say, listen, I'd really love to talk about this. Here's my idea in 60 seconds or less. And was that a nerve wracking experience? Oh, terrifying.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah, you're right. I like it. I'd done a lot of speaking and things before, but it's a whole new ballgame in terms of word for word has to be had through right now. I'm just used to wing it and looking at a few PowerPoints and going back and stuff that up. But no, this had to be
00:26:38
Speaker
Exactly, exactly right. So a whole new ballgame. Because that was last year, was it? Well, 22, just before. And how has that helped amplify the message?
00:26:52
Speaker
I think it has helped do what I hoped it would do in that it shines a light more on the economic and financial benefits of disability representation because previously there was so much about the charity model and it's a nice thing to do for all the poor disabled people.
00:27:12
Speaker
Yes, it is. It's coming from a position of disempowerment versus, yeah, empowerment. I mean, I've spent enough time in boardrooms to know that so many people who make the decisions decide who will be cast, what would be cast. What they're really interested in is the number at the bottom of a profit and loss statement. And that's fine. That's not a criticism. It's just their job. So we need to be able to communicate the value of representation to those people as well.
00:27:39
Speaker
years ago, we didn't have that sort of data to show that the disability community is worth this much. But now that we do, let's talk about that. I loved in your TED Talk, you say, my legs don't work, but my credit card does. And, you know, when you talk about it making commercial sense, $1.9 trillion in consumer spending in the disability community. Yeah. I mean,
00:28:06
Speaker
That is an immense volume of the population that are not being addressed in an adequate way. Exactly right. That's US dollars as well and it jumps up to $13 trillion US if you include family, friends, colleagues, just supporters of people's disabilities in general. 20% market share, you'd never
00:28:30
Speaker
never rock into the boardmen and go, right, we're just going to ignore that 20% of the market and just put put those millions of dollars over there and just not think about them. But that's kind of what what is happening when you're not being being diverse, inclusive of disability because the
00:28:48
Speaker
One of the first things in advertising or any good communication is speak to your audience and feel trusted, feel like they're connecting and resonating and all those sorts of things. But 20% of the market, approximately, has zero interest in your brand. So you're just not speaking to them, basically. And I buy new wheelchair once every 10 years or so. But the rest of the time, I'm just in the supermarket buying tin food, frozen food.
00:29:16
Speaker
All the the normal products everyday things yeah it seems quite incredible and we were talking before we started recording around positive intent vs execution and my point was. Even if as a business you were just thinking about the commercials and you know potentially had low moral grounding.
00:29:38
Speaker
And you're like, I'm just thinking about the P&L. It still makes sense. So even if you wanted to be an asshole and just think about the dollars, there's still an argument to say that by thinking about the broader, the total community, not just being biased for a small section of your consumer base, it's still an opportunity for growth. That's exactly right.
00:30:00
Speaker
Right. Yeah. So your TED Talk title, Why Embracing Diversity in Advertising is Good for Business. Yeah. Is that something since?
00:30:09
Speaker
2022, is that like your keynote theme that you're still talking about in the corporate sector? It's one of the things I'm talking about. And then I, even though I didn't do it in my TED talk, depending on who I'm speaking to, I'll break it down to the really final details of this is, you know, waiting for a script or how to panic, all those really fine points, but not everyone's interested in that because they're not shooting commercials themselves.
00:30:38
Speaker
And that's where the, I suppose, engaging with the agencies who are producing the work becomes important. Yeah, absolutely. Because I know that as an agency writer, you get a new brief every week about baby food, European cars. I don't have a baby. I don't drive a European car.
00:30:59
Speaker
you'd read the books or do the research and you'd get your head into it. And I think a lot of creatives have the idea that, oh, disability, that's just like another brand. We can just read a few Google reviews and just get up, head around it that way. But it's such a different kettle of fish.
00:31:16
Speaker
I can't begin to explain how different it is. I probably would have fallen into that trap 20 years ago and just thought, you know, I can just read about disability and understand the nuances and that's enough. But it's really, really not. It's amazing, actually. I want to understand and sorry to put you on the spot here.
00:31:37
Speaker
Who's doing it well? Because like anything in the work that you're doing is about, I suppose, modeling and advocating for brands, businesses who are doing it well. Are there some global benchmarks, I suppose, where, you know, case studies that you
00:31:57
Speaker
Real off regularly like I really respect at least the intent and the change that they're making yeah, so I definitely wish there were more as I as I think I said to you and I've I've been using the the same example for quite some time now and that is target and that's because they're
00:32:15
Speaker
they're holistic about their approach to D&I. So sometimes a brand will just go, yes, we need diversity, so let's do an ad, and that's it. There's no consistency with that advertising and marketing. Even in how that ad is being amplified across the channels, because I imagine, obviously, you've got
00:32:36
Speaker
you know, potentially hearing impairment, sight impairment, like all these different disabilities that receive information differently. Yeah. But Target have also gone one step further again to store layouts and those sorts of things. So it's not just the content, which I love. I can, you know, it's all of the senses. But it's everything. So it's that really, really holistic view. But your listeners should definitely check out the valuable 500.
00:33:03
Speaker
And they're unfortunately not in Australia, but their founder, Carolyn Casey, is absolutely amazing. And on their website are some global brands who are committing to that accountability, I suppose. And the brands that are aligned with Unstereotype Alliance, I know Kohl's, Kohl's is one of them, and Unilever is another.
00:33:27
Speaker
and they've done a few things here and there but it's still early-ish days but they're a group of really, really fantastic brands who I suppose what I love is they recognize their privilege and their power as
00:33:47
Speaker
global brands and the heads of some of those brands have just gone, you're in a position here to really change the dial, not just disability, but for other sorts of representation. So they're doing something and I love that. I mean, I respect
00:34:04
Speaker
At least i mean you you wanna have follow through right you don't just wanna say you gonna do something but having intent and then recognizing. The failures like that's the first step these are the things we aspire to be doing and i always think that you know having case study examples you know if you remember.
00:34:26
Speaker
in the early days when Dove launched their globally iconic beauty campaign, the real beauty. That was, you know, like just setting a new benchmark and everyone was talking about it for decades really and still are this real beauty. You know, having people to aspire to or having benchmarks can then help people take that, yeah, the first step in recognition what they're not doing and then be able to
00:34:49
Speaker
to move forward and as you said before, it's not just about expecting the corporates, it's about people at an individual level and then people at their own, where they're working, who they're using and advocating for and then at the corporate level, the responsibility coming from top to bottom in both ways.
00:35:05
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Taking Action Towards Inclusion
00:35:07
Speaker
And I think a lot of business leaders know they need to know more, but just, or know they need to do something with regard to inclusion, diversity, but just aren't sure where to start and how afraid of getting it wrong. That's fair enough to a point, but it doesn't mean that you can't ask the questions, explore. Because there are people out there, not just myself, but there's plenty of people out there who
00:35:33
Speaker
who do have experiments in those things, Bust-Up Films CEO Tracey Corbin, for example. She's an absolute legend and would be happy to talk to anyone about how to shoot, how to film, all these things to include disability.
00:35:50
Speaker
But it does start with those leaders who maybe are a bit hesitant. Just taking the step forward. Taking the step, asking the questions. And sometimes just the pressure's got to come from all angles, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Even if you're working with a client who may not be thinking that way, if you can have influence as an agency or a professional, you can still have impact coming from
00:36:14
Speaker
a side angle in to start to, you know, it's just like when corporations behave badly, they do so because consumers aren't demanding change in the same with politicians, right? If people accept, if voters accept or tolerate bad behaviour, there's no, I suppose there's no recourse, so they stay on the same path. But if people say, hey, we want to see this, and this is our base expectation,
00:36:38
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose that was always something that encouraged me to do more of the work that I was doing. There was a lot of, you're doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong, finger pointing, it's all shit, which was, and it still is in some respects, but there was no, and this is how you do it, and here's a solution, or this is how you can be better. That step was really missing, and as someone who used to be that non-disabled person was going, what do I do? How do I do it?
00:37:06
Speaker
I really saw a disconnect there between well-meaning corporates and everything who wanted to do more, but all they got was tweets and finger pointing going, you're all shit. Yeah. So they'd just give up. No, no sort of, and this is, this is what you do and this is how you do it better. Yeah. Here are the steps that you take forward. I really love in your own social content creation, how you are constantly advertising or being an advocate for
00:37:36
Speaker
other people, like you tag lots of people and say, if you don't follow this person, you should. And making sure that, you know, I suppose you're amplifying lots of different voices that people may not have seen. And I think, you know, I applaud you for that because I've certainly in following you on Instagram started to, you know, sort of really even question my own who I follow and the content that I'm getting. And I've started to make sure that I'm broadening that and I've gone through your kind of follow a list. And when you
00:38:03
Speaker
When you say you should follow this person, I've been doing that and making sure that my own feed is becoming better represented of the total broader community. Thank you for that personal bit. I want to talk to you about your relationship to being a brand boss. This podcast is about what we call boss women.
00:38:24
Speaker
lots of people have a different relationship with the word boss and even with the word brand, to be honest. I was recently at a small gathering in Melbourne of local women in businesses industry and we were catching up at a woman's restaurant. Shout out to the James in South Melbourne. And we were talking about, we were talking about brand and there was a lot of conjecture around the term brand and everyone was sort of getting confused and
00:38:51
Speaker
And I said, look, the challenge with the word brand is it has so many layers of meaning and it means something different from different perspective. If we just say we think about brand as reputation and we just leave it as that, like it's very simple. It's about, you know, you can all the nuances, but it's about reputation. What what sort of reputation do you want and how do you want people to
00:39:11
Speaker
To listen being a brand boss I suppose is being the boss of your own reputation and when you're in a business like yours where you're, you know, mostly solo advocating and you're consulting and advising. I imagine that's quite a complex job and as you mentioned before you don't have a big team. How is that for you? How is that experience? I don't particularly resonate with brand boss. Yeah. Because I've never
00:39:35
Speaker
I've never seen myself as a... As a brand or a boss? A bit of both, I suppose. I know that conversations I've had with people, whether it's around my own brand and to talk about myself as a brand, that to me is so awkward. Yeah. Which is why I was moving on to the reputation because it can feel inauthentic when you are not
00:40:02
Speaker
selling a product or you're not. Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you've got a background in marketing, especially like when I hear influencers now, they talk about their own brand or people talk about it's a great brand of football, meaning it's a great style. Like it just gets used and bandied around. Yeah. I suppose when the whole girl boss, girl, whatever came around, I'm like, okay, all good and well, but no one has ever gone up to a man and said, you're a man boss. You're a man boss. Yeah.
00:40:30
Speaker
Why are we suddenly all girl bosses? I do understand it. Taking back power. Intellectually, because it's taking back power and all of those sorts of things. I see it from that perspective as well. It's not a personal connection for you. No, no. Referring to myself as a brand or an influence, it all just feels wanky to me. To be completely honest.
00:40:58
Speaker
That's why we're here. Even though, again, I completely understand it intellectually and why I have to see what I do as a business, as a brand almost, but it just feels incredibly wanky to call myself a brand. Brand boss. Yeah. All right. Well, we won't hashtag that for you when we go out with our socials.
00:41:19
Speaker
I want to understand, and part of the essence of the podcast is being able to get under the skin of people's experience. What are you most proud of firstly? I think I kind of spoke about this before in the, there are the really big things like, like the tattoo or those sorts of things, but the stuff that I'm really proud of and will, you know, call my husband at work and interrupt him and go,
00:41:45
Speaker
is the really, really little stuff, a message from a strange rule or something like that. But I think living through a coma, coming off life support and dying twice, I'm proud of that. Yeah, you're proud that you're still here. Yeah. And that is fair enough too. No, I'm proud to be having an impact that serves more people than just myself. Yeah, I respect that.
00:42:10
Speaker
What's been your kind of biggest fuck up if you don't mind me asking? Oh, shit. There have been so many. Just give me the top two. Oh, OK. It's probably it's more of a regret, I suppose, that has, you know, led to multiple fuck ups. But I regret not calling out bad behavior with regard to ableism sooner.
00:42:37
Speaker
So I worked on a project for years and I was the only person with disabilities in that team. And time and time again, ideas were dismissed, emails weren't applied, all the stuff. And I remember thinking, it's just in my head, it must all be me. But finally someone with a disability joined that team was like, holy shit.
00:43:01
Speaker
You're being shut down, my friend. Yeah, this is not okay. Do you see what's happening? I'm like, oh, it wasn't just in my head. Yeah, you just think like culturally gas lit for the top. That's pretty much it. And wishing I'd called out that behavior sooner because now I have been. It took a huge toll on my mental health and my performance, my productivity all failed miserably.
00:43:26
Speaker
more of a regret for not taking action. A lot of voice. Sooner. Yeah, so that's that would that would probably be it. There have been no massive failures in terms of the company lost billions because because of something I did. Yeah. But there are always always little failures. There's always something along the way. But again, coming back to a mantra. Yeah. Worst things happen. And it's it's certainly helped me to get to get over those failures a lot quicker.
00:43:56
Speaker
died twice, I suppose. I mean, the reason that I think that's an important question is often when we glorify people and put them on a pedestal, no matter what type of work you are and or work you do. And, you know, when you go on to LinkedIn and socials, it's it's often sort of a highlights reel. And I certainly think you're
00:44:18
Speaker
Instagram keeps it pretty real. And I really love some of the quotes. You know, you've got that image of yourself beautifully made up. I think you're going to an award ceremony or something in the juxtaposition of you talking about PTSD, but then, you know, looking like you're dolled up, ready to go to a gala.
00:44:36
Speaker
I think that's really great but often when you know when we consume people in media and you know especially podcasts what we didn't want to do with this podcast was just create the beautiful high arts reel of everyone's lovely little linear journey without actually getting under the skin of you know
00:44:51
Speaker
their regrets, the things that they feel like they've failed at and how that's shaped who they are today. So thank you for sharing that. I guess there have been a lot of things that I could have seen as failures and just gone, that's it. No, nothing to do here. That's the end. So when I first started my business in 2010, I think it was.
00:45:12
Speaker
and had this, I mean it wasn't new, but in Australia there wasn't much of it in terms of representation of disability and advertising, white, the important, all the stuff. It's really, there's a lot more of that now, but back then there was nothing. And I remember approaching
00:45:31
Speaker
multiple really, really, you know, listeners might know some of them, but I'm approaching them and just saying, we need to do this. And this is why. And just getting doors closed, told to go. And so I could have very easily gone, oh no, no, there's nothing. Not for me. Not for me, but I'm a stubborn little shit and just got a fire in your belly.
00:45:53
Speaker
Absolutely. Something here and, and people are doing it on the other side of the world. So as soon as if it was this brand new revolutionary idea that had never been exactly. So, and that's, that's where I started thinking, well, I'm not going to get any help or support from the really big leaders who are in a privileged position to have power and influence this change. So I'll just do what I can as one person and start with one little industry tweak at a time and, and sort of build, build up
00:46:23
Speaker
from there. Yeah. And what a great amplifier you've been and you, you know, no doubt will continue to do that. I want to ask, this is a question that we ask all of our guests around your biggest bee moment. So it could be something you regret. Can you think of something that starts with a bee? I've got a whole list here if you can't and why that resonates with you.
00:46:47
Speaker
I think of a few words that I don't know if I'm right, it's absolutely bullshit, which would explain the state of disability representation in not just in advertising, but mainstream public culture. And that's something that I, along with a lot of other people, have been trying to do something about. It's the Darwin. Yeah, it changed the Darwin, not just because it's a good thing for society, but it's
00:47:15
Speaker
worth a lot of money. But that's not to say that it can't be improved.
Media Representation and Societal Impact
00:47:21
Speaker
It's not going to happen overnight. To quote Noel Panteneh, it won't happen overnight. It will happen. It will happen. So I have seen a lot, a lot of change and progression, but there's still a ton more to go. I'm really keen to understand what would you want your younger self to have read or listened to or seen that that wasn't available when you were that age?
00:47:44
Speaker
Great question. I would love for myself, not just myself, but for everybody to have seen a much more diverse representation of disability because I think that would have impacted me so much when I acquired my own. As I mentioned before,
00:48:02
Speaker
After acquiring my disabilities, I thought life is over. I'm never going to lead a fulfilling life now. I can be a Paralympian or a really, really tragic bedroom person. There's no in between. But I think if I had had the previous 24 years of my life with diverse representations of
00:48:22
Speaker
all sorts of people with disabilities that that would have made a huge difference to me, not just to me, but to my family, to strangers in the street who look at me and see me in my wheelchair and just the pity and will pray for you. I'm like, no, no, I don't know. I think it would have normalizing. Exactly. Yeah.
00:48:44
Speaker
Yeah, this is a bit of a side note, but I noticed on LinkedIn that you met Richard Branson last December. I rather selfishly wanted to ask you about that. He was, he's someone that you, I mean, obviously the whole world knows about Richard Branson, but how did that event come along? Virgin, one of your clients.
00:49:04
Speaker
Virgin used to be, but this isn't why I was there. Years ago, after my disabilities, after acquiring them, I went back to advertising agencies for a while and was working on the Virgin account, absolutely loving it because it's all sarcastic tongue in cheek.
00:49:23
Speaker
All the stuff I love, really bad puns. So as a writer, that was my dream. But I was down there for a completely different reason. I knew he was speaking and thought, really want to see him present. And I suppose even though he doesn't talk about it a lot, he's dyslexia to have someone or to see someone who has done so much.
00:49:51
Speaker
who is also disclosing that I have disabilities or whatever he wants to call them. That was awesome too, even though he didn't go into a lot of detail discussing all of that. It's just really good for everyone, I suppose, to know that you can be the world's biggest entrepreneurs and have a disability at the same time. Not for everyone, but it can be done.
00:50:18
Speaker
Amazing. And yeah, I suppose the more I feel like over the last 10 years and tell me if this is your experience, but the normalization of people.
Support for Young Care and Future Directions
00:50:29
Speaker
coming out as having a disability has increased significantly. Especially an invisible disability, obviously. If it's something physical, it's a bit more obvious, but the invisible disability is whether that's PTSD, whether that's chronic anxiety or depression or neurodiversity.
00:50:50
Speaker
You know, I really hope personally that that is something for all of society that we do normalize even more. So having people be more transparent about their disabilities is so great to see. Of course, it's everyone's business, whether or not they disclose.
00:51:09
Speaker
The times I've talked about it, it's never been to say, everyone must disclose their disability or chronic illness. Come on now. It's more than about we need to create a psychologically safe environment. So if someone does choose to, they're not going to feel judged or they're going to lose a job and all of those sorts of things. So your listeners can't see me, but I have both visible and invisible disabilities.
00:51:32
Speaker
And that event we were at in Melbourne, I know I touched on it briefly, that when I was working with ads council, they did a census a few years ago that showed that roughly, I forget the exact stat, was about 50% of people in the ad industry said they had a disability or chronic illness, but only 10% chose to disclose that. Unbelievable.
00:51:56
Speaker
I mean, I understand. It's not unbelievable, but it is unbelievable. Having spent time in all the creatives, I swear half of them are on the spectrum. That's fine. But this not wanting to disclose and all those sorts of things, that's a problem for people with a disability as well as those without.
00:52:19
Speaker
I think the message that I shared down in Melbourne on that panel was that if you are in a leadership position, managerial position, if you choose to, please, please disclose because that says to every other person with a disability in that
00:52:36
Speaker
in that agency, oh look, I too can be a CEO manager. I'm not just going to be the entry-level jobs, which is this assumption that we have about all people with a disability with their only entry-level jobs, but it also says that the rest of the agency without disabilities
00:52:54
Speaker
Hey, look, there's someone who has made it to the absolute peak of their profession and they also happen to have a disability. So this stereotype that we've all been fed about, we can be paralimpians or tragic people whose capacity is really, really lowered. That's not true for everyone. So it helps everybody by disclosing if you choose to.
00:53:17
Speaker
Well, there's a good message for everyone who's listening. I mean, it's been a pleasure having you here. And, you know, we've talked a lot about advocacy and I know that you feel really passionate about the charity that you have chosen to donate to today, which is Young Care. So, not-for-profit, that's revolutionizing the way people with high care disability
00:53:39
Speaker
live to give them freedom, dignity and choice. Really keen for the benefit of our listeners and also myself to understand your relationship with that charity and the work that they do and why you chose them. Okay, young hair. I cannot say enough good things about them.
00:53:54
Speaker
When they started, there was a group of a group of four guys and one of the guys, his wife had MS and she was going to being put in aged care and she was maybe only 30s or something like that.
00:54:10
Speaker
And these four guys got together and said, there's actually thousands of people all around Australia. I'm far too young for aged care and they need an alternative because aged care is no place for young people. And because of the nature of my injuries and disabilities, a stroke, hip replacement and other things like that, I spent over a year in...
00:54:34
Speaker
rehabilitation with people who are old enough to be my grandparents and I was only 24 at the time and wanting to be 24 and I had no war stories or grandchildren or any way to relate they're all lovely people but it really didn't help so I always had in the back of my mind one day I'll be leaving
00:54:53
Speaker
And I did. And then I came home and watched a 60 Minutes episode one night and it was all about young care. I had no idea that this this problem existed with all the young people in aged care. And I know that if my brain hemorrhage had occurred an inch to the left or right, up or down, that would have been you.
00:55:13
Speaker
that would have been me and I just Bored my eyes out in front of the TV and then a couple of days or weeks later found them on Google I forget how I did it but called them up and said listen, I don't have money I can't give you tons of money, but I have my skills Can I write can I do something? and so just started doing a little bit of a little bit of work for them in in marketing and those sorts of things and ever since then spin and
00:55:38
Speaker
been volunteering and talking about them whenever and wherever I can because I'm fortunate enough to have a voice and a very small platform to advocate for people who can't always advocate for themselves. And they're powerful skills in marketing and advertising and design. They're skills that can transform the perceptions of the way people see it, the way it's interpreted. So it is actually, you know, a really amazing gift.
00:56:05
Speaker
Yeah, well, Young Care are doing an incredible job for so many around Australia that they, yeah, if I can do anything to support them, we've just started a podcast called That Was Unexpected, and we're only a few episodes in, but it's all about transforming people's perceptions of what disability is all about. So our first episode was about sex and disability, not the the nitty gritty
00:56:30
Speaker
bedroom habits of anybody. But just to talk about the fact that, you know, people with disabilities want to be loved, respected and all the stuff that... Yeah, all the human, basic human needs of everyone. Basic human needs. So all the possibly taboo topics or things that don't get a lot of air time. The sorts of things we like to talk about at the moment and also giving a platform and a voice to people who don't have one.
00:56:57
Speaker
who aren't, you know, high-profile, paralympians and those sorts of things, but being able to give, amplify their voices is really important as well. Yeah, there aren't too many Dylan Allcotts around, are there? He's the great guy, but yeah, no. Exactly. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. It's been great to be here in Brisbane and it was really important to me. I know when you suggested we could do it over the phone, it was really important.
00:57:23
Speaker
But yeah, we have this conversation in person and yeah, so I thank you for for taking the time and I wanted to mention so there's a there's gonna be a really long list to show notes I think because I want to make sure that everyone who listens to this episode has access to all the information including people that you follow and all of the platforms so Everyone can do their part
00:57:48
Speaker
But the last thing you said on your TEDx talk was, why not start today? And I think that that's a really great way to end this podcast on, you know, for everybody. Why not start today asking that question? Excellent. That would be great to see. And if they do have questions about where or how do I start, then the best resource I can recommend is
00:58:11
Speaker
a resource to put together at Media Diversity of Australia. And it was written for newsrooms, but we've now added a chapter for marketers and advertisers. And it's for anyone who wants to start. It's like, shit, what do I do? What do I say? What words do I use? And having once been that person who was terrified of getting it wrong, having a guidebook, a great resource to say, OK, so I shouldn't use that word, but I maybe should use this. And this is how I can I can better do that. That's 20 things we're going to go through editing.
00:58:41
Speaker
Why did I say that? I shouldn't have said that. No, no, all good. So we can put the link in the show notes. Yes, that'd be great. That'd be really wonderful because I think it's everyone's responsibility. It is. Whether or not you have a disability. Well, thank you everybody. Until next episode, may you bite big and chew like hell. Bye. Bye.