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Amber Bites Big with Carolyn Bendall - CMO @Swinburne University
217 Plays1 year ago
In Episode 4, Amber Bonney Bites Big with guest co-host Carolyn Bendall - the powerhouse Chief Marketing Officer of Swinburne University, and recent appointee to the MCC committee.
Inspired by Amber's own Mantra, "bite big and chew like hell", in this episode we talk about Carolyn's extensive years of experience and how her Mantra, "Be visible, be brave, be kind", was built on lessons learnt from early in her career, and has evolved into something that is true and authentic to her own being.
With a bucket list of achievements, such as 16 Cannes Lion awards for creative excellence, and a 3-time Australian CMO top 50, we dig deep with Carolyn into the importance of having visible female leaders for younger generations to see and learn from, and how when Carolyn first started out, jobs for women came with a gender lens over it and how she intuitively knew it just wasn't right and women should be able to do anything.
As a big advocate for inclusion and diversity of all kinds, we discuss Carolyn's impact and contribution to a more inclusive world, how she consciously builds her teams so as celebrate the importance of diversity, and how she is bringing modern thinking to a historical institution.
Bite Big has donated $500 to the chosen charity The Man Cave, a mental health and emotional intelligence charity that empowers boys to become great men.
If you would like to know more about our host Amber Bonneyher business The Edison Agency or co-host Carolyn Bendallyou can connect and follow these boss women via the socials links below!
Carolyn LinkedIn
Swinburne University of Technology
ANZ ‘GAYTm’ Campaign
Carolyn’s Book Recommendation ‘Personal History by Katherine Graham’
Carolyn’s Podcast Recommendation ‘Chat 10 Looks 3’
The Edison Agency's Instagram
Amber's Instagram
Amber's LinkedIn
The Man Cave
Recommended
Transcript
Acknowledgment & Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
This podcast is recorded on the lands of the Boon Wurrung country and we wish to acknowledge them as traditional owners. We recognise First Peoples of Australia as the original storytellers of this country and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
00:00:25
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to episode four of Bite Big, a podcast about boss women leading big brands. I'm your host, Amber Bonney. And today I'm excited to be here with co-host Carolyn Bendel, the chief marketing officer of Swinburne University of Technology and recent appointee to the MCC committee. Welcome, Carolyn.
Carolyn's Professional Journey
00:00:44
Speaker
Thank you very much Amber, wonderful to be here. Carolyn, you're an experienced marketing professional with background in communications and over 30 years across multiple sectors. Currently you're at Swinburne and prior to that the GM of marketing at ANZ Australia, so definitely a boss woman in our eyes.
00:01:01
Speaker
You've been recognised with 16 cards line awards for creative excellence and you are a three time Australian CMO top 50. No small feat in itself.
Mantras & Leadership Philosophy
00:01:10
Speaker
And the CMO for any of you who are not familiar that recognise Australia's most innovative marketing professionals.
00:01:16
Speaker
You also have professional qualifications in marketing, psychology, and you're a graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors. In your current role, you're a director of Swinburne Student Life and a director for a preventative mental health organisation, The Mancave, which we will talk about later on.
00:01:32
Speaker
I'm so thrilled to have you here and to get under the skin of your mantra and what drives you to bite big. So let's get into it. So in every episode we talk about the co-hosts personal mantra and how that's influenced them and how that shows up for them.
00:01:47
Speaker
My personal mantra is bite big and chew like hell. And what that means is I reach high. I don't get told that I can't do something. That's usually fuel to the fire of me having a good old crack. And I really make connections in a way that
00:02:05
Speaker
I build a network around me really when I need support, but I try not to limit possibility. Now, if you'll let me read out your mantra that we'll be focusing on today, it's be visible, be brave and be kind. So talk to us about how this came about and how this shows up for you.
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's a mantra. I guess I was refining for quite a few years and probably takes me back to the early days of my career. And I really built on just the lessons that as I was going through from starting out through to the various jobs that I've had. That to me, though, were the three things that not only I thought were important about becoming a good leader and a big brand manager, but also just authentically what was going to work for me.
00:02:55
Speaker
To me, the be visible, there's no doubt that's got a gender aspect to it. Quite early on, I really recognised the importance of having visible female leaders and the impact you can have on others by doing that. Being brave, and that's actually connected to the visibility bit. You actually have to find the courage to put yourself out there.
00:03:16
Speaker
to do not only work that is brave and we'll touch on that I'm sure as we go through our discussion today but also just brave individually in doing things that put you right outside your comfort zone. And being kind is a really interesting one but in a way I'd say that's an element that was with me right from the start but probably more suppressed and it's actually as I've gained confidence and become
00:03:40
Speaker
more comfortable in that leadership position, I've learned that it helps you to become more authentically you and therefore to show, and when I say kind, I'm meaning that true sort of care, compassion, you know, care for your people, care for your customers, care for the work.
Mentorship & Visibility Strategies
00:03:57
Speaker
I found that actually was a real power that I had and was able to actually be an authentically kind and caring leader. And the way that people respond to that is really strong. So to be packaging the three up,
00:04:10
Speaker
It just became a personal mantra. I've spoken about it quite a bit over the years, and still to this day, it's the reference point that I'll have in my work and my life as I go through. Yeah, I really love that. Do you have a T-shirt with that on it yet? I don't yet, but that's got to come, doesn't it? We can work on that. We'll be having a podcast launch, so maybe by that time you will. You mentioned that you've spoken about this before. Has this changed over time?
00:04:38
Speaker
Is this something that sort of came to you at the beginning of your career, midway through, or is this something that innately has been with you for a long time? Look, I think it's definitely evolved over time. Its final shape has probably been in place where I put the words to it, probably five, six, seven years ago.
00:05:01
Speaker
But yeah, I do think it is something that has evolved over time. And probably the starting one for me was that notion of being visible. And I was fortunate enough, you mentioned I was GM of marketing at ANZ and actually have had a very long career at ANZ prior to moving across to Swinburne University. And there was, yeah, I was fortunate enough to spend some time at ANZ with some leadership coach.
00:05:29
Speaker
who really nailed that notion of visibility and visibility for female leaders. And there was a few of us who actually went through quite a structured program to work on quite literally a visibility plan. And I thought that was a really clever way to
00:05:46
Speaker
tackle what has been a very long standing challenge across not only corporate Australia, but actually across so many different workplaces and institutions to ensure that we're seeing the career progression and the visibility of female leaders that can have an impact. Yeah, absolutely. And in your time in ANZ during that period of looking at visibility, did you have great female mentors internally?
00:06:14
Speaker
It's an excellent question. And be honest. The answer to it is yes. Yes, but some of the most important and impactful mentors for me actually have been men. Keeping in mind, I'm 55 years old. So my career is over, you know, I started out over 30 years ago and
00:06:36
Speaker
In those days, especially in the banking environment, because I started as a graduate in banking, a lot of the leaders were men. And I have been very fortunate to have a number who truly believed in me and truly gave me opportunities, particularly when I started having children. My eldest is 23 years old. I have three children.
00:06:58
Speaker
And that's been another really important element to me to again, show by example that you can have a career, raise your children, keep progressing and do those things. So I would like to say, and it's really important to me that men have as equal role as being great mentors and supporters as other women.
00:07:18
Speaker
I think statistically we understand that if men are not supporters, we don't get the change we need. Many of the listeners might have heard of the program that Elizabeth Broderick founded, the Male Champions Have Changed. That's been a critical part of having some of the biggest leaders in the country really championing females along. That being said, I have absolutely had some great female leaders over the years.
00:07:44
Speaker
You know, that notion of women supporting other women is a very important one and it certainly flows through to now at my stage in my career, the time and effort I invest in in helping to mentor and coach other people. Yeah, setting up that next generation. That's amazing. And so, I mean, we understand it is harder for women to be visible. And traditionally, you know, when you were starting your career, say 30 years ago,
00:08:09
Speaker
If someone's just coming into their career, what are some thoughts or ways that you can help other people, you know, be more visible?
00:08:19
Speaker
I do think it is easier now. I think we've come a long way in terms of ensuring just that natural starting point of equity in terms of people in roles and career ambitions and not making assumptions that might have been made a generation ago about where you wanting to head or what you might be wanting to do in your life. I really do think across the board from a diversity inclusion, there is more a general acceptance of
00:08:45
Speaker
your life and your balance.
Overcoming Public Speaking Fears
00:08:47
Speaker
But I think there is in many, not all of course, but a natural inclination to things like, let's take public speaking, it's such a classic one. Most people hate it or start life not enjoying it. And I have had many conversations with people and used
00:09:05
Speaker
My own example of I also started off being absolutely terrified of doing that, but proactively it comes back to the be brave element, really pushed myself, did some formal training around public speaking and then pushed myself. The only way to get better at it is to do it. It's a muscle really, isn't it? It's just the more you do it, the better you become.
00:09:29
Speaker
That's right, overcome the fear, prepare properly and you can do it. Those things give you visibility and visibility begets visibility. The more you're out there and accept a public speaking, your opportunity, more likely you to be tapped on the shoulder to do it again or to do something different. I think social media has also made a difference because now we're all empowered to actually create more of our own content
00:09:55
Speaker
and post and get engaged about the things that you care about.
Personal Branding & Purpose
00:09:59
Speaker
So there's also more levers now to actually create your own visibility. I think it does also start back with, and this is the sort of training when I mentioned that visibility plan we talked about, being clear on the things that, what are your areas of expertise? What do you actually want to be known for and called on to comment in?
00:10:23
Speaker
So that was also something for me to be clear about the things that I actually really care about and believe I've got a useful worthwhile point of view.
00:10:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's really interesting. Have you ever been through the process of, not to sound morbid, but writing your own eulogy? I haven't. You haven't, right. Not to frighten you if you can see Carolyn's eyes looking at you right now. I suppose the intent of that process is actually about helping to unpack your legacy. So it's really about what do you want to leave behind and how does that have impact? And sometimes,
00:10:58
Speaker
that can be the easiest way to get to the heart of what you believe in, because it's like that core finale, right? It is. It's that kind of end state. So I was speaking in a recent episode about how we think about our mantras and also how we unpack our purpose and our values and how that guides us. And that was one of the tools that we spoke about. Absolutely. I could say it would be quite a challenging, confronting thing to do.
00:11:27
Speaker
My eyes probably popped out at you, Amber, because... Where are we heading here? Over recent times, again, it's my stage in my life that I have lost both my parents over recent times and have gone through the exercise of writing my mother's eulogy. And what you're saying is absolutely right. It was very much really wanting to capture her life and encapsulate her lasting legacy and what she's done.
00:11:54
Speaker
to tackle that myself. You're just sort of working backwards really, going forwards. And then also you'll have a draft ready for when the time comes. It's very efficient. I was speaking in another episode, one of our guests talking about the Japanese framework of Ikigai. So where you're thinking about the four quadrants around what you're good at, what you get paid for. It's really about the synergy between
00:12:21
Speaker
what you love and your passion, what the world needs, what you get paid for, so your professional skills and what you're really good at. And you're looking in that Venn diagram for that sweet spot in the middle. That might be a less morbid tool to...
00:12:36
Speaker
to reference,
Career Beginnings & Gender Bias
00:12:37
Speaker
but you sort of get to the same spot, which is really interesting. I want to ask you about a time, if you can recall past or present, if there is one, where you didn't feel seen and the impact that that had on you. I actually quite clearly mapped
00:12:55
Speaker
The career ambitions I've had and I would suggest the drive that has continued the whole way through actually does take me back to my childhood. And I am an only girl of three brothers and came from a family who truly believed in education and have given me amazing opportunities.
00:13:17
Speaker
I did find at both my school and indeed the early influences at home around what to study, what careers to look at, there was a lens of you're the girl, as opposed to the conversations with the boys. And similarly, as I said at my school, most of the way through the types of jobs and careers that were being suggested, I always felt there was such a gender lens to it. And I actually had a really strong reaction to it. And even at an early age, felt the sort of
00:13:46
Speaker
unfairness and actually that's just not right. So to me visibility in a way was important that I felt an inner need to actually show everyone that that's actually not right and I'm capable of war.
00:14:03
Speaker
than what I believe was being suggested to me as likely career paths and to be honest was more about career paths until the point I got married and then had kids and that was going to be the end. And I just intuitively knew that wasn't actually what I wanted and actually wasn't fair. So I think a point where I didn't see
00:14:25
Speaker
or feel I was seen quite in the way that I needed to be, really takes me all the way back there. That being said, I have had some incredible conversations with my mother then over 20, 30 years of how she had very limited opportunities, didn't even get to finish high school, let alone go on and create a career of her own. And, you know, she was my biggest fan and enormous
00:14:52
Speaker
and I know really proud of what I was doing. And that's been exactly what I spoke about when I did do her eulogy, but an incredible influence and drive for me. An advocate. And how lucky I feel, certainly, I've got a young daughter that it's just not even a thing at her age group. Of course, there are still biases in education and in lots of areas.
00:15:19
Speaker
Certainly, I imagine that she thinks she can do anything. And we work really hard in our household to try and remove gender from almost every situation where we think it's possible. Absolutely. And that's what I meant earlier. I do feel, thankfully, we are in a different world and stage that I also have two adult daughters as well as a just adult son.
00:15:47
Speaker
exactly the same. It's irrespective of gender, their education, their career ambitions, their goals in life, what they're wanting to do and it's exactly the way it should be. And what did you study first and how did your brothers and dad react to that?
00:16:03
Speaker
Just to get really deep down and personal. Yeah, this has become very personal, hasn't it? So I actually started, so I will give great credit to a career practitioner at my school. Back in the day, it was called HSC, not facing me, got my results. They were strong and a career counsellor said to me, there was a very strong push to go down the path of accounting. That's
00:16:27
Speaker
My family, many of them, have studied business and accounting. And a career practitioner suggested to me that actually, what about marketing? It's a more creative, communicative outlet than accounting. And I had already started to be interested also in psychology.
00:16:45
Speaker
It's a perfect synergy of those skills. And to be honest, I really hadn't heard much about marketing, didn't know much about it. Monash had a double degree program down there, so you could major an arts degree in psych and a business degree in marketing. Once I started to dig into that, that felt so right. And then
Diversity & Inclusion at ANZ & Swinburne
00:17:04
Speaker
back to your question, I think there was a little bit of shock horror that I was not going to be doing a commerce degree, doing accounting.
00:17:12
Speaker
It absolutely was the right choice and continues to have been. I actually really do enjoy commercial environments and the whole world of business, but I've always just relished the people connection and being able to be more communicative and creative in my work. That's awesome. I want to talk about impact because in your bio, it talks about your contribution to a more inclusive world where diversity is valued. So I want to understand
00:17:42
Speaker
Firstly, around how do you know when you're having impact? How do you measure that? Personally, and then also if there's any guardrails for, professionally, how Swinburne promote or document impact, I'd be really interested to hear that.
00:17:57
Speaker
I think I'd probably start by saying the two big brands that I've had the privilege to work on being ANZ and Swinburne. Both have very strong ethos around diversity and inclusion and therefore
00:18:13
Speaker
I think it's the reason why, certainly with ANZ, I was there for so long and certainly with Swinburne in terms of why I was just attracted to work there. Because it really is something that is personally important to me to be able to work with brands and my work in general that are doing something
00:18:32
Speaker
positive towards that whole notion of diversity and inclusion. I think there's numerous ways you can measure impact. There is no doubt you can feel it personally in terms of what your people will say to you.
00:18:47
Speaker
the way people will sit down and talk in interviews about reasons why they want to join your organisation. It's a good litmus test to hear what they say. And, you know, often things like being an inclusive workplace and doing visible things out in the community is a real reason for people to choose to work with you. I think it also then shows, you know, in a marketing sense and when you're doing your brand tracking or market research,
00:19:13
Speaker
it can come through formally and you start to get a real feel. As being a brand of choice, as having strong recognition but strong recognition with a positive resonance I suppose is what you're looking for. Exactly. And then I suppose from a teen perspective or a culture perspective it's then things like retention of employees.
00:19:31
Speaker
and loyalty. Yeah, it absolutely is and we've been talking a lot about visibility today and in teams and I've had the privilege to lead large teams. It's important that that diversity is visible in the teams and so
00:19:47
Speaker
that is something that to me, and we're not just talking gender diversity, I'm talking of all aspects of diversity, that we bring all of these differences and wonderful things we have to the table. So I have consciously looked to build teams that represent that and can celebrate diversity. That's awesome. In terms of
00:20:11
Speaker
kindness and the role of kindness in business because it can be contentious because kindness is one of those things where it's either seen as being gendered and soft and a bit fluffy and you know with so much emphasis these days on businesses developing you know purpose led strategies sometimes it ends up just being you know
00:20:36
Speaker
something on a page and no one's actually practicing. For you, what's your experience about bringing kindness to the boardroom so it's got a seat at the table? Yeah, it's an excellent point you make that that notion that kindness is softness and therefore not tough enough to be successful or to make hard calls is easily associated. But the way I have
00:21:00
Speaker
really thought about kindness is, as I mentioned earlier, this notion of care and genuine care, not just words on paper. And to me, it is all connected that a genuine care for your people and your team translates to a genuine care for the work that we do and the impact that it has on our customers and prospective customers. But it also, to me, that genuine
00:21:29
Speaker
care for what you're doing and if I can't really where I landed is if I find myself genuinely not caring about something then I don't want to do it. It's just not worth the effort. It's interesting this notion of yes in senior roles or around a board table
00:21:45
Speaker
I guess it comes back to this notion of authenticity. I actually think more and more that is what businesses are looking for. Leaders and directors who actually can bring a true and authentic self. Humility, empathy, you know, they're all traits. But vulnerability, all of those things. And it's actually, it's just, it's not soft.
MCC Committee & Branding Skills
00:22:08
Speaker
Sometimes
00:22:10
Speaker
Being kind and caring, for example, means actually finding the courage to have a tough conversation, to actually tell someone how it is or to be honest about what's going on here. So I think there is a bit of reframing that's needed around
00:22:27
Speaker
kindness and a kinder world. And it's interesting, as you mentioned, I've just recently joined the committee of the Melbourne Cricket Club, which is one of Australia's biggest and oldest clubs and an amazing history and an amazing institution.
00:22:42
Speaker
And as part of the interview process, I actually had a lengthy conversation with the president there about that whole notion of kindness because he too picked that word up off my CV and wanted to explore it all. Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, without going into detail, it's been what
00:23:03
Speaker
Five months? Yeah, four months. Yeah, I suppose with an institution that's so old, there's a lot of baggage and I'm sure that they were highly strategic in your appointment in knowing that for their own brand image, they need leaders who do have these skills.
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And it's what appealed to me when I was first approached, that here is an opportunity and so much of this is about making the most of an opportunity, that there was genuine intent to look at the composition of that committee, knowing the history which...
00:23:42
Speaker
as most people would imagine was entirely male up until not that long ago, the committee there. Over time there's been some amazing women who have pioneered their way in there now and there was an opportunity again to look at the seats around the table and
00:24:00
Speaker
not only from a gender sense but that is still important and you know I'm pleased to say there's now six women on that committee it's the highest number that's ever been there but it was also about the skill set and they were looking for someone who has a real experience and a real lens on the customer experience and
00:24:18
Speaker
how effective communications and engagement can help us engage the community. And with an experience in consumer branding, I always say that when you understand consumer-led branding, marketing and strategy, it is such a unique skill because it really puts the customer at the heart of everything you're doing from a human-centred design perspective. So I imagine that's actually an amazing skill that you're bringing to such a traditional organisation.
00:24:47
Speaker
Yeah, and having that clarity of what that brand stands for, that absolute crispness of your brand strategy and what you're aiming to do there, it enables you then to, the brand can manifest and be communicated and activated in so many ways, as long as you stay true to it. You stay true to that. What is that brand promise? And I've always believed in the importance that as marketers and good communicators, we can make all the promises in the world
00:25:17
Speaker
it's actually then delivering on the brand experience and it's bringing those two together that create really powerful, effective brands. Absolutely.
Career Transition & Risk-Taking
00:25:24
Speaker
And that is a good segue into bravery and risk taking. Do you feel like that appointment was a risk for you or a brave decision or is there a time in your career where you did really feel like you stepped out and took a brave move forward?
00:25:41
Speaker
I would say there's certainly been some times I've had to, yes, call on courage to take a brave step forward. In terms of the Melbourne Cougar Club Committee decision, that was really more a case of, I still feel I need to be brave when I'm walking in the door. Right now, I'm very new. There's some incredible people around that table that you really do have to work past the good old imposter syndrome a little bit and really find your seat at the table and find your voice.
00:26:11
Speaker
That's something we're all learning and we're all working and that's something I continue to work on. But more broadly, brave decisions. I think the decision to leave ANZ was actually one that was a really hard one to make. How many years were you there?
00:26:28
Speaker
I hesitate to say, can I say over 20? I joined as a graduate and then worked my way through multiple countries, multiple divisions, all of their divisions actually. I suppose with an organisation so big, you know, you can cross departments. There are so much opportunity, but it does say a lot about, I suppose, the culture of the business that you stayed there for that.
00:26:52
Speaker
A that they fostered growth and development for you but also that there was enough interest to stay for that long. That is exactly the way I would phrase that as well. It was that constant career progression and opportunity and interest. I do have a passion to constantly be learning and growing as well as
00:27:13
Speaker
You know, they were, I would say ASEAN was quite ahead of its time in terms of supporting working mothers and when they're trying to balance having children and continuing to grow your career. So that's absolutely what kept me there. But there did come a point a while ago that was just clear to me that I couldn't see that ongoing growth runway. The next one.
00:27:36
Speaker
And it was time to find something different for me to do. And, you know, as I mentioned earlier, some personal things happening in my life. I just needed to step out, have a really good think about what was next. But, you know, leaving behind my team was probably one of the hardest things I've done. I care greatly for them. Of course, you know, quite a few years now down the track.
00:27:57
Speaker
from doing that still so closely connected to the people who don't view each other. I know a few people going through that experience right now and the bravery of having been somewhere for so long and then considering the move. It really is, you know, when you're so familiar with an organisation and you're so embedded in their culture, it really is a brave move to take that next step forward, not knowing
00:28:20
Speaker
where you might land. Yeah, it was going to do, yeah. But I knew it was going to be in a different sector. That was part of the deal I made with myself. I'm going to take this big step. I'm going to give myself some time to just heal and think about things and then move into something very different.
Navigating Pandemic Challenges at Swinburne
00:28:40
Speaker
And higher education came my way and it's been amazing. It's been amazing. And what are you most proud of regarding impact at Swinburne?
00:28:49
Speaker
There's a couple of things I would say, but I think the way I'd pull it together is I started at Swimming University of Technology in March 2020 in Melbourne. And so for those listeners who particularly Melbourne based one would know that was when they locked out. One word, lockdown. Essentially close to my first two years then at university were off campus. We had no students on campus. All the staff were sent home to work from home.
00:29:19
Speaker
And to me, there was a big task ahead personally to build my acumen around how does higher education tick and really build that acumen yet quickly, but also build relationships as brand leaders and marketing leaders. You know, stakeholder relationships are just so crucial and also the team and to get to know over 100 people.
00:29:43
Speaker
And I imagine you would have been hiring new people. Oh, absolutely. People have never met in person. Never met in person. And many of my own team who were already there, I hadn't met in person. And it was only sort of 80 months later that I met them. But nonetheless, I guess I would say I'm proud personally that I think I was able to do that. But at the same time, then really,
00:30:06
Speaker
I lift not only the marketing function, but the positioning of that marketing function from what was to a large extent a sort of a demand receiver from other parts of the university. We want to do this, very executional, do this, do that.
00:30:25
Speaker
COVID, as horrible as it was, also gave us opportunity that some of that demand dried up. It gave us opportunity to reshape actually, we're here to drive growth. We're here to drive brand growth, growth in our student numbers, overall health of the university. So it gave us a chance to reshape ourselves as actually being riding our own mission, being very clear on that.
00:30:48
Speaker
and to me reorganising the team to be much more empowered to actually do the things that are going to have impact. So yeah, it was a very challenging three years, but I'm actually really proud of where that organization is today. I mean, it was a time of great reflection, wasn't it? Like an unprecedented opportunity. And even though, as you said, I mean, we experienced that as a small business, but with our clients that are big brands,
00:31:14
Speaker
went through the same sort of process, it's an opportunity to reflect and in some ways sort of pause or restart or reconnect. And also innovate. And I think that's one of the biggest things we did at Swinburne during COVID.
00:31:31
Speaker
years and 2020 was when Open Days, which is your biggest brand showcase and the biggest experience moment for your prospective students, was off the table in a very short amount of time. We built a online gamified universe of Swinburne University, which we called Swindopia. It was a fantastic engagement platform and being a University of Technology
00:31:57
Speaker
What I loved about it was it was actually the brand in action that here is a technology university in the space of literally about 10 weeks. We built this gamified world of our campus with content and academics that were represented as little avatars and
00:32:13
Speaker
the best experience of what we could deliver from Swinburne in a text and a digital format. So to me, those sorts of opportunities, I'm sure you're the same. I think most people listening will feel the same. Also our ways of working
00:32:29
Speaker
have changed forever and I think that that is another positive that has shown that there are many ways that we can get our work done and ways that we can effectively balance our lives. That's not necessarily the traditional 9 to 5 Monday to Friday in the office.
00:32:47
Speaker
communities, the hours of commute time that people have now saved. Yeah, that's incredible. And regarding the innovation, has that sort of reshaped now how Swinburne approach, I suppose, being customer centric in the communication with potential students, has that sort of pivot to being online
00:33:10
Speaker
had now an ongoing impact on how you communicate in being almost like a multi-channel approach. Certainly if I take it back to as a university the way our students are learning is now much more hybrid in its fashion because again it's not something that was going to revert back to just
00:33:28
Speaker
being physically there for every lecture and every activity. That being said, the physical experience is really important, so having the hybrid offering. But that absolutely then translates into how we communicate. We've developed a very clear positioning for Swinburne, which we encapsulate around a tagline of Next Gen Now. That is our promise that
00:33:49
Speaker
We are at that cutting edge of technology, of innovation, of entrepreneurship right now. And so if you are really looking for those skills, those next gen skills and experience, we're a really good choice for you. So I mentioned earlier that it's really important in my view, fundamentally, the brands must live up to their promise. And so I think
00:34:13
Speaker
at Swinburne, I'm really fortunate. I work for another wonderful female boss there. So we have our Vice-Chancellor, Professor Pascal Cuesta. She started a very similar time to myself and I really feel her mission, the way she's shaped her aspiration for the university and the way we've crafted the brand around that is very aligned and that's made us, I think, much more distinctive.
00:34:39
Speaker
in the way we communicate and what we do. And that's really important that you mentioned the connection back to heart, if you like. So the connection back to the essence of what Swinburne is trying to do and then how you amplify that in an authentic way. Not only is that going to help the university grow, but also I imagine retention of staff, contentment of staff. Have you seen that reflected in how people are feeling about working as employees for the organisation and your team?
00:35:09
Speaker
Absolutely. I think good brands manifest not only in a solid customer value proposition, it's got to be, it's also the employee value proposition and people, you know, attracting people who believe in what you're doing and want to contribute to it. The absolute joy of working for a university is when you look at its purpose and we've framed ours as its people and technology for a better world.
00:35:34
Speaker
Our purpose is to produce not only graduates, but our research, our activities, wherever we are operating, is really unpacking that nexus between how technology and the people who use that technology can do amazing things. So that's a pretty wonderful purpose. And that absolutely helps us. It's a really hot market trying to attract people in, but a lot of people really connect to that.
00:36:04
Speaker
Yeah, I remember in the early 2000s, I worked in the UK and I worked for an organization that only did employee branding and I'd never heard of employee branding back then. But what was really interesting is those big organizations had completely separate budgets for consumer facing initiatives and employee marketing. So they had two separate marketing teams, two separate propositions. I mean, that just seems
00:36:32
Speaker
you know, unheard of now that you would have, I mean, this is sort of pre when, you know, there was social media and where, you know, people had websites that, that anyone really went to was sort of pre that. And it just seems so amazing that you would have a separate channel.
00:36:48
Speaker
Now your employees are your biggest advocate. And so it all starts in and influences out, but it's coming from the one place. It's not a separate tactical strategy. It's actually just an authentic or should be. Absolutely. The risk of misalignment by having that tackled separately is crazy.
00:37:07
Speaker
I would say the other thing, having worked in services organisations, so financial services, higher education, it's even more critical because it is your people who deliver that service. And in both cases, they're long-term relationships you have with your customers or with your students.
Leadership Style & Learning from Mistakes
00:37:25
Speaker
And so therefore, the alignment of the people who are actually delivering that experience to your customers, the two go hand in hand.
00:37:34
Speaker
They have to. Yeah. Wasn't always that way. So it's good progress. I want to talk a bit about the term boss and brand boss. And there was a lot of discussion when we were developing this podcast internally around taking ownership of the word boss, because that is typically being quite gendered as well. And I want to understand a few things. But one question is, how do you know as a boss that you're making the right decision?
00:38:01
Speaker
It's interesting. I think as a boss, part of it is, as you said, it's an interesting term and not one that sits overly comfortable. I'd never refer to myself as a boss, but actually part of it is if you sit and just listen to others, you know, people will refer to their boss and then, you know, you have to really recognise, well, that's you, right? I feel the same way about that term. Yeah. What we, when we were thinking about this podcast, what we liked is
00:38:28
Speaker
is just referencing boss women, boss women, boss women, just to help take also claim ownership. But I think the rejection to the word boss, it feels so autocratic in its approach. It doesn't have the kindness or the empathy.
00:38:43
Speaker
style. That's right. We have this sort of archetype of what a boss is, which of course is not the case. So I do think there is part of the sort of acceptance that the buck stops with you when you are leading a function, a team, you know, you are the boss. And then how do you know if you're having an impact? I honestly believe that if you care enough to listen,
00:39:09
Speaker
and to find out by asking the right questions, by showing your vulnerabilities. And again, that's something I feel it's really important to actually show quite a bit of my authentic self, including
00:39:21
Speaker
you know, have got something wrong or misunderstood, being able to comfortably say that, you will hear from your people. You'll certainly, you're obviously in a marketing sense, we can gauge our impact and our effectiveness through all our performance measures. But if we're talking about impact in terms of the organisation and our people, I think if you create the environment that people feel comfortable to give feedback or show it and you're listening carefully enough.
00:39:51
Speaker
Because it's so much about, you know, if you think about leadership in a more contemporary way, you're establishing that sort of North Star, so certainly in your department or in your business. So, you know, where are you heading? But in other ways, you then sort of
00:40:09
Speaker
you're acting as a support role to everybody else in the team. So you're leading in a perspective of this is where we're heading and you're making those critical decisions. And I went to a conference this year and there was a lot of talk about people in the creative industry looking for higher wages and there's lots of narrative around my boss and so much more than me, but I'm the one producing the work.
00:40:34
Speaker
spoken a lot about when you're in leadership, it's not just the experience you're paid for, it's also the risk. You're taking the risk when you're at reputational risk, the risk in being when the buck stops with you, you've got to make that final decision. That's a lot of pressure on someone. Um, so it's sort of the, I suppose the duality of being that great empathic
00:40:56
Speaker
support person, but also being the person where you're setting the benchmark for where to head, but also you're the last gatekeeper of that decision making. Yeah, that's right. I think those who have worked with me and the way I represent our organisational design at Swinburne is I actually depict the CMO at the bottom of the org chart. And it's really intentional to reflect exactly what you just said that I realised in terms of the way we
00:41:25
Speaker
develop our strategies and the way we go to market, it actually starts, you know, CMO at the bottom and actually moves on out. But my role is to do my utmost to ensure clarity of mission, right people and resources at the team's disposal.
00:41:43
Speaker
helping to prioritise the work. Anyone who works in marketing will have experience that demand usually exceeds our capacity to do the work. So my role is about actually what does get done and how do we do it. And also I mentioned stakeholder management before and I think that effective leaders and bosses really convey to their people that you've got their back and you give them confidence to do their work and feel empowered to do their work.
00:42:11
Speaker
and that there's times where you're the one who needs to take on the hard conversations or the advocacy piece. And so those things are not easy, but those things are actually what I think then has the impact in the team. If they feel supported and cared for, you will get fantastic work from people.
00:42:34
Speaker
So we've spoken about vulnerability and empathy, language alert. I want to understand what's been your biggest fuck up. What sticks out for you, Ego? Actually, that was the wrong decision or, you know, that could have been that you would.
00:42:50
Speaker
trusting the wrong person, or it just could have been, yeah, you just made a big mistake. Because I think it's very easy, the reason why I asked this question, it's very easy when you're listening to amazing people like you and such an incredible bucket list of achievements and awards.
00:43:09
Speaker
It can sometimes feel for listeners who might not be at that point go, that's so unachievable. There's so much perfection attached to that. So I think it's also really interesting to ask the questions around what have been those mistakes. Yeah. Well, let me start by saying, of course, there's been a million mistakes and we all learn.
00:43:29
Speaker
along the way and I would emphasise that to me the biggest lesson is just when you make mistakes, just take the time to reflect. Reflection is really important. So then you take the learnings out of it and that's a positive no matter what's happened. For me, the biggest mistake without a doubt, it's a leadership mistake and something that actually I felt I personally paid the price for but so did
00:43:58
Speaker
more than one team member. And it's about when you have a toxic person in your team. And I allowed that person. And I think, you know, if I'm really being honest, I, you know, it was partially an excuse, but I allowed that person to operate for way, way, way too long. Sort of kidding myself that indispensable, amazing skillset. So therefore we'll put up with bad behaviour. That is absolutely
00:44:25
Speaker
completely the wrong, wrong thing to do. And I've regretted that. And as I said, more than one of us paid a price for quite a long time that we got into some really, really difficult workplace relations issues. And I should
00:44:41
Speaker
have dealt with that a lot sooner and that's an example of where I was not brave enough and so yes I learned a lesson from it but yeah to me that was by far the biggest career mistake and as I felt it took an enormous toll on me but it also I felt very guilty that there was impact on others.
00:45:00
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that because it's, you know, obviously those times of acknowledgement, like they're, they're painful, you know, memories, thinking about them. Was that a situation where your intuition was telling you, but the weighing up of the bravery and the, I suppose the consequence of, of taking that step that you probably intuitively knew was right.
00:45:26
Speaker
seemed greater than the risk of doing nothing. Yeah, yeah, it absolutely was. As I said, that to me is an example of where I wasn't brave enough. I absolutely, when I really am honest with myself, I knew there was problems. And as I said, it was quite easy to have the internal voice and even actually externally with conversations with others, put the justifications in that, I know this is good. We need, as I said, this skillset and, you know,
00:45:54
Speaker
the work that's been delivered, but actually it was more about facing into something that I should have acted on. Yeah. Well, I don't think you're alone in there. I've certainly had personal experiences like that too, where I have felt guilt for allowing behaviours to happen for longer than necessary and then the impact that has on other people. And I imagine that
00:46:17
Speaker
many people listening to this would resonate with that story. So then back to my point about we'll then take the lesson from it and as I said it was a painful lesson but it absolutely strengthened now my resolve that never again and we'll absolutely call out bad behaviour and hold others to account to do the same.
00:46:38
Speaker
I think that for anyone who is leading teams and aspiring to be into more senior ship boss roles, to me that is a really important thing to keep in mind. Some of those leadership skills are quite hard to learn. There's not necessarily, you know, there's
00:46:58
Speaker
lots of books around business leaderships and all sorts of types of leadership and being empathic. But some of those scenarios, there's no rule book for. It's very hard to know what the right decision and when that decision is. There's no doubt that, yeah, there's textbooks galore, there's courses galore, but it's school of life.
The GAYTMs Campaign Success
00:47:21
Speaker
We all know, we all have our own journey and the things, the experiences you have
00:47:27
Speaker
in life will shape you and you will learn, but there are some things that can help you along the way, like having people that you feel you can call on for counsel or advice, taking the time to reflect and be introspective, and being clear on your, you know, over time, your personal values and your mantra.
00:47:48
Speaker
What has been your biggest bee moment? So, boss women bite big. There's a lot of bees going on. There's a lot of really great words starting with bee. Can you think of something that, you know, that sort of floats the top for you?
00:48:04
Speaker
Yes, I would say that the biggest bee moment for me was a campaign that I developed and led at ANZ, which is all around our sponsorship of the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras.
00:48:20
Speaker
And I will put it in the bold and brave category. And I'd need to take you back to about 2013, 2014, when it was not as common and certainly not for major banks to be playing in spaces like that.
00:48:37
Speaker
Collectively, with our creative agency, we came up with this idea of gay TMs. What if ANZ came out of gay TMs? Unexpected overnight just before the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras started.
00:48:52
Speaker
It was a brave decision. It was like guerilla tactics. It was absolutely. It was meant to be exactly a tactical thing. Nobody knew it literally created these gatey ends under the cover of darkness and unveiled them all at once on the eve of the Mardi Gras.
00:49:07
Speaker
I feel nervous for you just thinking about this, because if you look at the Bud Light situation at the moment with the marketing team responsible for that, and that has massively backfired for them. And we've all seen it where these big activations can go wrong. So the risk there, yeah, the bravery. But tell us how that went.
00:49:26
Speaker
Yeah, so yeah, it was brave, and it was a considerable amount of money, and even that in itself was a bold move because it wasn't about typical media spends, which is where you typically spend media dollars. All the investment went into creating the pieces of art, though literally 12 pieces of art.
00:49:47
Speaker
And so for those, you'll need to Google it if you haven't seen it. We'll put a link in. These beautiful crystal covers, each telling an individual story on 12 ATMs that turned into ATMs. And so were they sort of reskinned? Is that what happened? The ATMs were reskinned. Yep.
00:50:03
Speaker
So it was committing a lot of money in the hope that actually it made a really bold and brave, but important statement by ANZ of their belief in diversity, inclusion and respect. And that was what was behind that.
00:50:18
Speaker
And I guess in terms of managing risk, ANZ had, it still has, a very, very strong and active pride network internally. And they were the ones who had first advocated and secured the sponsorship of the Mardi Gras, but we'd never taken it to a brand level and activated as a brand around it until we did this campaign.
00:50:40
Speaker
And did you talk a lot about the potential consequences and then took the risk to make that decision? I imagine there would have been a lot of stakeholder discussion around this. Well, in a way, and I've reflected on this a few times, if we engage too many stakeholders, my belief is we never would have done it. I feel that way about doing consumer research.
00:51:02
Speaker
Too much consumer research will kill an idea very quickly. It actually was a very small group of people and I engaged a couple of very senior leaders, including our chief risk officer at ANZ at the time, but it really was about getting some senior but small number of support.
00:51:21
Speaker
and then finding the courage to do this, we knew that of course there was going to be some negative backlash. But what was actually really wonderful to see was really activating because the whole thing was just PR activated. It was just social channels and then the media.
00:51:37
Speaker
picked it up and it went literally globally. But it was the social communities themselves that managed the backlash. People would try to yet criticise ANZ for doing this, for wasting money, for getting involved in something that they don't belong in. And we were able to really, you know, clearly assert
00:51:57
Speaker
again, our commitment to diversity, inclusion, respect for our people and our customers and the community at large, but also the community itself jumped in there and really provided support for the work. And, you know, little did we know, but timing-wise, we were only a couple of years off then the plebiscite, and where then many companies across Australia started to get involved. But back then, they didn't... It was a very progressive decision. They were not major corporates.
00:52:26
Speaker
involved in that space, but we believed we had a right to be authentically there. And I do believe that that had true impact, that work and important impact. And really would have, a lot of organisations would have been watching that. So, you know, really leading the way, which is exceptionally brave. Congratulations on that. In many of your awards that you've won, did you win multiple awards for that?
00:52:52
Speaker
So you mentioned in the intro the CAN Awards for Creativity. It was the GATM and then associated activities for years to follow that really brought all of that award and the outstanding one for the
00:53:08
Speaker
creative agency, or give TBWA a plug at that point, who led the creative work there. That resulted in winning the Grand Prix for outdoor in 2014. I think I write in saying over 5,000 entries and it won the... That is top-sectional. So the most exceptional outdoor activation in the world that year.
00:53:31
Speaker
Well, that is an exceptional B moment. I'm not sure we'll be able to top that in any episode. That's incredible. What a testament to your leadership, the trust in your agency. I always say that any great work is an outcome of the partnership that you have with your client.
Influential Reads & Podcast Recommendations
00:53:50
Speaker
And so for you, it's the partnership and the trust that you showed.
00:53:53
Speaker
to TBWA and on vice versa, the fact that they felt like that they could present something back to you that was going to be accepted. It's really a mutual pathway, isn't it? Yeah, we had a great partnership and for years did some amazing work together and it certainly taught me the value of, yes, a partnership where you really can trust each other. Again, just brings fantastic work to the fore.
00:54:18
Speaker
Incredible. I want to go back a little bit now and just talk about something that you wish you had seen or read or heard about if you could talk to your younger self. Is there something that comes to mind that's really inspired you, a piece of work? It could be a podcast or a book or an article.
00:54:38
Speaker
There's a couple. I would say one book that I read, which I actually wish I'd read at least a decade earlier, is an autobiography by a woman by the name of Katherine Graham. It's called A Personal History. And she took over the Washington Post back in the 1960s when her husband Phil Graham unexpectedly died.
00:55:04
Speaker
and she grew that newspaper to be the most amazing entity, and it's the way she wrote her personal story. It's always stayed with me, and I actually think it has been made into a movie, but for those who can be bothered, I'd really encourage you to read the book. Well, put the link in. Yeah, I haven't read it. Yeah, she's just phenomenal.
Episode Conclusion & Gratitude
00:55:27
Speaker
I just remember being very inspired by her, and I wish
00:55:30
Speaker
And again, you know, he's someone operating in the 1960s in a backdrop of Washington and US politics. That's like Mad Men star still. Incredible lady. Probably a more recent one that, you know, I'm really quite addicted to a podcast, Chat 10 Looks Three, which is Annabelle Crabburn Lee Sales. And I love it because, especially, they entertain me endlessly and I love both of them professionally, the work that they do.
00:56:00
Speaker
But what I also really love about that podcast and wish we had that sort of thing going back is I've talked about that sort of importance of authenticity and I love how both of them incredibly smart women doing incredibly important things.
00:56:15
Speaker
But in that podcast, you know, they're just funnier and their mates and they get the giggles and they're messy and they talk about their kids and they just love that they sit in like a wardrobe in the ABC with just their phones. Like it wasn't to leave in their later episodes. They actually had any proper production.
00:56:34
Speaker
They've been on holidays before and they go in a room and then one of the kids come in because they want something, whatever. And I just love that because it just puts that absolute real life messiness in there, even for, you know, a couple of women who are just absolutely kicking goals. But yeah, I just, you know, their relatability is so
00:56:56
Speaker
wonderful for all of us. It's a really great example. I remember when I was just sort of getting into podcasts where they weren't really a thing. A friend of mine, Sebastian, who is in this industry said, oh, you got to get onto chat 10looks3 and I'm like, what is that? It's just a crack up.
00:57:15
Speaker
Well, we're coming to the end, Carolyn. I would like to say just a massive thank you for taking the time to come into our studio today and for showing us your version of Biting Big and your aspiring mantra, be visible, be brave and be kind. I've taken a couple of notes you would have seen me squirreling away at. I really loved when you talked about visibility and showing people that you're capable of more and the different ways that you've inspired other people to be more visible and how you see your role
00:57:43
Speaker
in being the champion of advocating for others. I think that's really important. I also really appreciate the vulnerability of you talking about your early experience growing up and in a generation where you felt like you weren't always necessarily seen in the same way as your brothers and the expectations that they had on
00:58:05
Speaker
on you moving into a sector and you sort of rebelling against that and going into marketing psychology, I think that's really amazing. And I think the GATM, I want to check out that case study and we'll definitely put the link in there because I think that is a really great example of being a boss woman and taking those risks and being really brave in the way that you move forward.
00:58:27
Speaker
Now, as we mentioned in other podcasts, this is produced and made by women for women. And to show our gratitude, we donate $500 on behalf of all of our co-hosts. And today you've chosen the Man Cave. A Man Cave is an organization that helps with men and mental health and emotional intelligence empowering voice to become really great men.
00:58:49
Speaker
And I know we spoke earlier about the importance of if we need to move the dial, the importance of having real male advocates to create change. So I'm sure this is the reason that you've chosen the Mancave. But talk about how that came about for you. Yeah. So I am lucky enough to be a director of the Mancave and
00:59:09
Speaker
Yeah, I guess in a way, you know, on face value, it might seem strange that for someone who's very much about female empowerment and equality for women, and here we are on a podcast produced and made by women, that I'm donating to the Mancave, but there really is actually some quite strong rationale to that. What I love about the Mancave, and it's led by an amazing, amazing man, Hunter Johnson,
00:59:34
Speaker
who founded it and continues to lead it today. But it is all focused about it's preventative in that it is about engaging with boys on that transition point from boyhood to manhood. So typically 14, 15, 16 year old olds and programs run in schools and online there and very much about that notion of emotional intelligence and trying to encourage them and allow them to take the mask off.
01:00:02
Speaker
You don't always have to be the tough guy. We all have feelings. And just the importance of sort of caring and respecting each other, including, of course, women. So I think the work they do is incredibly important. As I said, it's about
01:00:20
Speaker
generational change. So, you know, preventative and creating healthy masculinity in more and more boys as they grow into men. But it's also systemic because healthy men operating in society absolutely then helps women in many ways in for everything from, you know, we see less suicide and more intact families, domestic violence reduced and
01:00:46
Speaker
actually have employment opportunities for women too. That's right. More, I suppose, diversity in what that looks like in terms of working hours, part-time, much more flexibility. That's right. And it's wonderful to see a lot of men doing that as well. So again, it's for all of us. So yeah, the Mancave amazing organisation. We'll definitely have those links in the notes. Thank you for bringing that to our attention. I haven't heard of the Mancave, but I'm definitely going to check them out now.
01:01:14
Speaker
Well, thank you so much. You're definitely ticked the box of boss woman in my eyes, and I'm sure in many of our listeners' eyes. Until the next episode, I've been your host, Amber Bonny, and may you bite big and chew like hell. Thanks, everyone. Bye.