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Amber Bites Big with Fatuma Ndenzako - Co-Founder @Collective Closets
168 Plays1 year ago
In Episode 2, Amber Bonney Bites Big with guest co-host Fatuma Ndenzako a new generation boss woman and co-founder of Melbourne-born brand Collective Closets, a slow fashion label that celebrates African/Australian heritage.
Inspired by Amber's own Mantra, 'bite big and chew like hell', in this episode, Amber gets under the skin of Fatuma's personal mantra, 'Always be kind, life is too short to not be kind to others'. We look at how Fatuma's own mantra came to be through her family and community, how it has filtered through her life from when she was growing up, to how it has impacted her work decisions.
We get under the hood and discuss the impact that previous generations can have on an individuals own outlook, and how Fatuma's, 'Give Back' philosophy intertwines with her mantra and her business, and how this ultimately helps to empower others. We talk about the business of kindness and how this has influenced Fatuma's ethical fashion business in terms of sustainability and the support of women both here and in Kenya.
Don't miss this exciting episode to give you a very different perspective on what the fashion industry is doing and how it is changing for the better both here and abroad thanks to people like Fatuma.
This episode is dedicated to a charity close to Fatuma's heart, Sisters Inside - a charity supporting criminalised women, girls, children, and families both inside prison and out. As Fatuma states 'we all make mistakes it doesn't have to shape the rest of your life'.
If you would like to know more about our host Amber Bonney her business The Edison Agency or co-host Fatuma Ndenzako you can connect and follow these boss women via the socials links below!
Collective Closets Instagram
Collective Closets Linkedin
Fatuma's author recommendation James Bowen
The Edison Agency's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's Instagram
Amber's Instagram
Amber's LinkedIn
Sisters Inside
Recommended
Transcript
Acknowledging Traditional Owners
00:00:00
Speaker
This podcast is recorded on the lands of the Boon Wurrung country and we wish to acknowledge them as traditional owners. We recognise First Peoples of Australia as the original storytellers of this country and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
Introducing Bite Big Episode 2
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello and welcome to episode two of Bite Big, Boss Women Leading Big Brands. I'm your host, Amber Bonney. And today I am definitely fangirling with local fashion icon and today's co-host for Tuma Denzaco, who is a founding partner in Melbourne based fashion brand, Collective Closets.
Collective Closets and Heritage
00:00:45
Speaker
Welcome for Tuma. Thank you for having me. That was a really good intro.
00:00:50
Speaker
You're welcome. A little bit about collective closets. You describe yourself as a slow fashion women's wear label. It was founded by you and your sister, Lorinda, and it celebrates your African Australian heritage and also plays homage to your late mother, Stella, who was a talented seamstress and connects audiences with the culture and history of the African continent. And I'm really looking forward to hearing a bit about that as we start to talk.
00:01:16
Speaker
Your brand is run entirely by local female staff who are passionate about uniting women through a universal sartorial dialogue. I will say when I read that I had to look up what sartorial meant. So thank you for teaching me a new word. Sartorial basically means fashion and or tailoring. Never heard of that word. So thank you for that.
00:01:35
Speaker
I thought it was only appropriate that I'd be wearing one of your beautiful pieces today, which we will put on social media. It is from your recent collection. It's one of my favorites. And every time I wear it, people stop me in the street, literally out the front, or where did you get that?
Exhibition Achievement
00:01:50
Speaker
That looks amazing. Every time I put it on Instagram, I'm wearing something.
00:01:53
Speaker
someone will DM me to say, oh my God, where did you get that dress? So now I just usually tag you because it's easier. I did want to mention as part of your bio, your work for Collective Closets was recently featured at the National Gallery of Victoria as part of the Melbourne Now exhibition, which is absolutely incredible. Congratulations, by the way.
00:02:14
Speaker
And I'm really excited to have you here and get under the skin of your mantra and what drives you to bite big.
Mantra of Risk and Kindness
00:02:20
Speaker
So let's get into it. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. All right. So my mantra and the reason this podcast really started was, it was all about biting big and chewing like hell. That's my personal mantra. And what that means for me, I suppose is different things at different times in my life, but I suppose there's always been underlying
00:02:42
Speaker
confidence or maybe naive bravery in just sort of jumping in and saying yes and then worrying about how I'm going to do it later. And I was really fascinated to see your mantra, which is always be kind. Life is too short to not be kind to others.
00:03:01
Speaker
So I'm fascinated. How did this come about and how does this show up for you? Yes. Well, we're like a mansion that I've had through my whole life, especially as a mum and as business owner. I feel like when I look and reflect about the most amazing or the most important or the most influential times in my life is when someone's been really kind to me, whether it was like, you know, when I was a little young and I wasn't quite fitting in, we're like the first African family in our community. And I just took one girl, Haley, to be really kind to me.
00:03:31
Speaker
It changed my whole perspective of school because then I had someone to hang out with and I look at my whole life and I just think that that was something that has always been a part of my journey. And then when we sat in the business, it was literally other women being so kind to us and giving us a shot, sharing their knowledge.
00:03:50
Speaker
you know, like sharing what they could do for us or even just helping us out that then propelled us to where we're at now. And I think if it wasn't for their acts of kindness and their time, we probably wouldn't be here to be honest.
Giving Back in Business
00:04:03
Speaker
Not that we wouldn't have got there, but you know, we don't have to make the same mistakes as other people. And if someone just like, you know, wants to collaborate or
00:04:10
Speaker
puts you on your Instagram or really goes out of their way with nothing to gain to kind of be there for your brand. I think that that's just something really nice. And as a mum as well, like my son, I'm always talking about kindness. I don't care what he is, a rock star or in a doctor or, you know, a teacher. I just want him to really be kind. And I think that that's something my even my whole family kind of do all the time. I was talking about it being kind to others. You know, life is just too short. You just don't know who you're talking to as well.
00:04:39
Speaker
It's a beautiful mantra. I had a conversation recently with my husband and I, you know, and I mentioned to him, I'm like, look, life's just too short. Like we only get this one gig, right? And you just never know when it's up not to get macabre, but you know, you've got to do your best. And, you know, certainly part of my philosophy in business, especially over the last five years has been
00:05:03
Speaker
When you reach a point where you can actually also start to give back and start to support other people and giving back is not always just about handing out cash.
Inclusivity and Community in Fashion
00:05:12
Speaker
It's actually about giving people your time, going out of your way to promote other people. And for those listening, I met for Tumour.
00:05:21
Speaker
maybe three years ago, pre-COVID, when I was president of the Creative Women's Circle, it's an organization that supports and advocates change in women and women in marketing, women in business. They have all sorts of workshops and talks. And I think you came out to do a talk and that was, oh my God.
00:05:40
Speaker
And then I saw the collective closet close and yeah, once I saw your line, I was absolutely in love for anyone who haven't seen Jump Online. But definitely, you know, you've got a very bold, brave, beautiful, and of course inspired by your home country. So I think that's really amazing.
00:05:58
Speaker
Yeah. And even when I think about it with fashion, I think that when we first started to get into it, fashion has changed a lot. It wasn't a kind industry when we first got into it. And obviously we were doing something so different. We weren't fashion trained. And I remember Lauren and I would be in some of these rooms and be like, Oh my God, this does not feel nice. And so when we started to do more work, we were like, nah, we're changing it. We kind of stopped going to all of those like social gigs.
00:06:25
Speaker
We kind of hunkered down, built our own community and every interaction with all the women that we work with, like whether it's like even someone like Lucy from The Design Files, everyone is so kind and so lovely. I feel really like proud of that, that before it was such an intimidating space and now
00:06:43
Speaker
It's this like women supporting women and we do that, you know, I still mentor and still work with some of the girls at the social studio. And I'm bringing that mentor in, you know, I'm like, come and talk to me anytime. I have got anything that you need and I can give you definitely come through. And so I think that that philosophy will carry you to like a really good place in your life. I don't mean like, you know, you'll be the most successful, but I think you'll be the most content in the work that you do.
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah. And that's important. And I think if anything, my experience, especially going through COVID, like everybody else's, if you're not enjoying what you're doing, if you're not being kind to yourself and kind to others, it's pretty hard to be content and happy, right? Like you're bringing a lot of resentment to work.
00:07:29
Speaker
and the way that you treat other people. And, you know, certainly my experience during that time was it was that kindness and empathy for other people that allowed us even as a business to keep going with clients and to ask potentially if we needed forward payments or, you know, some of our clients are on really long payment terms, which when everything's, you know, sailing is great.
From Hobby to Business
00:07:54
Speaker
But when, you know, suddenly things get a bit tight, you need to call in those favours and
00:07:59
Speaker
If you're a complete arse, you can't really call in those favourites because nobody wants to help you. Absolutely. What year did you start Collective Closets? So we started Collective Closets in 2016 and when I reflect on it, I think the first couple of years was kind of a bit of a hobby business. Yeah. So I think that it kind of took like maybe
00:08:18
Speaker
2019 for it to be a real business.
Sustainability in Manufacturing
00:08:21
Speaker
But I mean, at the start, we always had like a give back, um, strategy. So when we first started the business, obviously we were getting all of our fabrics from Kenya. We're like, Oh, what are we, if we're taking something from this, what are we giving back? So at first we had these huge ambitions to be like, you know, 20% of every sale, we'll do all this stuff. And you know, when you start actually, you start to look at your profit margins going, actually, this is not viable.
00:08:46
Speaker
So then we started with, you know, we changed it up a bit where then we sponsored one of the girls that we like was amazing to go to, like from high school all the way to university. It was all of her tuition. And like even now we've kind of like put that on hold a little bit and tried to tweak on what we could do to really make it a bit more impactful.
00:09:05
Speaker
We're in that process now with launching this new collection to try and make sure that that kind of still stacks up because at least, you know, we want to make sure that what we're saying, what we're doing is impactful. It's not just like a tagline. It's not a tagline. So since then we've kind of really been able to develop the brand with the emphasis and always like thinking about what are we doing? What are we giving back? What are we thinking about? What does this content that we're producing, all these clothes, how do they empower? How do they kind of like,
00:09:32
Speaker
You know, we're selling clothes, we understand at the end of the day. But what does that mean? And representation, what does it mean for women of all sizes? What does that mean? What are we talking about? And so for us, it's always an element of what we do. Yes, we want to sell a blazer, but also we want to understand or we want to make sure that person that's buying it feels like she's, you know, wearing something that's making her feel really powerful and happy. But also we're talking to her about different things that's happening in the world.
00:09:58
Speaker
Yeah. And you touched on something that really resonated there around inclusivity of sizes. So in, I suppose, the fashion space, whenever there's startup labels, and this is my experience certainly in fashion in Melbourne, you know, they start at size six at the latest and maybe go up to a 12, 14 if you're very, very lucky. But if you try and get into a 14 and you are
00:10:21
Speaker
are actually a 14, you can't actually squeeze it in. My experience in coming to you when you were in the Queen Vic, your store there, it was just such a beautiful space to be, not only because you and your sister were there to be helpful, but you felt good. You knew, certainly for me, I've always been between a size 12 to 14, but always knew something was going to fit me. And there's nothing worse than going in somewhere, especially looking at blazes, for example. I could never get anything to
00:10:51
Speaker
get across my shoulders. It's really, you know, demoralizing when you try to put something on. It doesn't work. So congratulations on, you know, not only creating a range that has impact in other communities, but also in the local community in terms of what it looks like and the fact that your size inclusive.
Ethical Practices Post-COVID
00:11:10
Speaker
Oh, thank you. I mean, we're all women as well. No, I'm a 14. My sister's about a 16. And so we also understand that we're building clothes or making clothes for real women, especially through a coronavirus, which is really interesting. I think that we had like a philosophy of what women wanted and obviously they were reflecting that by what they were buying.
00:11:28
Speaker
And then after coronavirus, I was having conversations with so many women that was just totally different. I think that those years made people reflect on their bodies or how they felt about their bodies. And instead of me just being like, here's a tarp, here's that. I was having these deep conversations about other women accepting their body for what it is now or saying how they wanted to improve it. And it was really interesting because I think that the fashion industry has kind of got women to think that they're not okay. Yeah.
00:11:55
Speaker
And so when people were coming into our space, we were like, no, it's the clothes that need a look. You own it. Yeah. Or, you know, why don't you just get that altered in, like, and we can offer that as a service. Not everyone is the same. The same size. I think that fashion needs to stop, like.
00:12:10
Speaker
boxing people into that. Cause I feel like even, you know, even the perfect size eight, she might have a bit more boob or a little bit more, but that means it's very different from, you know, each brand. So I'm really glad that we've been able to build a brand that is very inclusive.
00:12:26
Speaker
And the customizing piece, I mean, that's key across every industry. We say the personalization and customization is, you know, the fastest growing need from a consumer perspective. Everybody wants something that they feel is either made for them or tailored towards them in some way, which is amazing.
00:12:43
Speaker
I really want to talk about the business of kindness and how your experience might have changed over time since 2016 in terms of people's approach to operating a business that is ethical and where you do have a safe space to be kind. Have you seen that change since 2016?
00:13:05
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like it's actually strengthened. So before 2016, it was still, I mean, we're also very new. So maybe I should say before COVID, the thought of ethical fashion has also changed people's perception because there's a lot of brands that are ethical. But when you start to get into the nitty gritty, there's a lot of green washing as well. So I think that, um,
00:13:25
Speaker
like what we've done and what we're kind of talking about now is what's ethical to us, what our plans are right now and what we want to do in the next five years, our commitment to it. Just through manufacturing, like the way that manufacturing has changed in Australia, we've decided to manufacture some of the collection actually in Kenya. Yeah, amazing. I imagine logistically that was quite complex too.
00:13:48
Speaker
But what was really interesting and you know because we've always been like Melbourne made Melbourne made and obviously there's still an element of our business that's Melbourne made was going over there and understanding how different quality standards are there and we were like so shocked about how much all of the team that we were working with like quality was so big. It was like a real pride in the craft.
00:14:10
Speaker
of, you know, dressmaking and tailoring. And also we were having amazing conversations. Lauren was really lucky because she went to Kenya and spent like that eight weeks putting it all together. I mean, we're already having the conversations prior to that, but really just solidifying those relationships. And she was able to have like some really amazing
00:14:30
Speaker
conversations with like some of the ministers in Kenya and it was really really great to hear about their commitment to sustainability and how much the Kenyan government was actually putting into their manufacturing. I mean Australia's still doing that but it was really interesting like a lot of the manufacturing in Kenya has
00:14:46
Speaker
increase, you know, Calvin Klein manufactures there, Vivigneur Westford manufactures there, but what they're doing in terms of sustainability was really exciting to
Purpose and Career Paths
00:14:56
Speaker
have that. And we weren't bringing it up. They were like, this is what we're doing. So for us in that way, it was really like that sustainability part going over there and also just like meeting women. This is their bread and butter and it really changes their lives in different ways. And so we're really excited to support women there. We're excited to support women here.
00:15:15
Speaker
And that's sort of that full circle. It's quite amazing, isn't it? Because like anything, I've always said that having a job that you love is actually a real gift and not to be taken for granted because for many people in the world, they have a job because they have to have a job and they have to earn an income. So I've always found the premise of telling young people, you know, you have to love what you do and follow your dreams is actually just a bit of a fallacy.
00:15:43
Speaker
because there's a bit of arrogance to that in the sense of ignoring the fact that a lot of people need to work. But the impact that it can have generationally of women watching their mums do something and have a job with purpose or even just caring about what that job is and knowing that there's people behind it that also care, that can have massive impact for future generations as opposed to just the actual generation.
00:16:09
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. I feel like as well as being a woman of colour, you hear that a lot. Like if you say it, then you can do it, which is actually really exciting because you're always thinking, oh, you know, if I just can see one person doing it, no matter how big they are, you're like, I could do it. And that's really pushed in our culture. And I think that that's when you see a lot more of like this entrepreneurship within my community anyway increased because everyone is like going away from those traditional and I mean, when knocking those, I mean, being a doctor.
Community Support and Mentorship
00:16:38
Speaker
nothing to or a lawyer shy away from for any all smart enough to be able to get that but but looking at those people that maybe have trained you know started a law degree or finished a law degree and said oh does this really make me happy yeah and I'm seeing that a lot more growing in because I think that in a lot of African communities most of the people will I grew up with all went to university their parents all push this narrative in my mom I want to become a florist she was like
00:17:03
Speaker
No, you got to go to university. Is that a university course? I was like, architecture, forestry. Can we, how can we do any things? Yeah. And so, um, that was such a big push in that community. And so it's nice to also watch that next generation of also doing a bit of both, something that is practical, but something that they love.
00:17:23
Speaker
And that's where the mentoring as you mentioned before in the supporting other women is that the more that you can support other people's endeavors by helping them with your skills or things that have failed or you know even just you know one of the great things about community I think especially in business and women in business.
00:17:42
Speaker
is just those tips in, oh, I really, I know someone who could help you with that, or I know someone who knows someone who can help
Balancing Risk and Authenticity
00:17:49
Speaker
you with that. And sometimes just those little connections can make a massive difference in overcoming an obstacle that might be in your way.
00:17:58
Speaker
All right. I want to move on to this idea of risk versus safety. I mean, we all know from an entrepreneurial perspective that when you start a business and you would have experienced this and potentially for you and Lorinda, it might've been a bit different if you started more of a side hustle, but there's always risk, isn't there? When you make that decision about, I'm now going to rely on this for an income.
00:18:22
Speaker
That's a big difference between something you love to do on a weekend or at night or at a market, for example, versus now my family is going to be reliant on that. What's your experience about, I suppose, making those courageous or risky decisions versus when you might play it safe in business?
00:18:39
Speaker
Well, I think we're really lucky for when we started because right now there's a different culture on taking risk, which I wouldn't have the appetite for. You know, I watch these TikToks where someone launches a product, they get like a thousand sales and it all looks like overnight. And I'm glad that I wasn't looking at that as what success looked like.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah. For us, success and risk was all about what worked for our individual families. Like we're both married, we both got kids. And so when we started doing the business, we were like, okay, we're funding it ourselves. We're not asking our husbands, we are funding it ourselves. And then we're going to do what we can do within this budget because we've got all these other responsibilities.
00:19:18
Speaker
Yeah. And so our risk appetite was low at the start, but when we saw some proven sales and it was just between like Lauren and I were like, okay, we can do this. Then our risk appetite got bigger. And we also weren't comparing ourselves to anybody else. We were like, okay, we're growing at this. We're going to get resources, whether it's a marketing coach or someone to help us. And we're going to like get these milestones. And once you can see these sales and these proven kind of interactions and, you know, us building our audience, then the risk game bigger and
00:19:48
Speaker
Bigger
Pausing for Growth and Mental Health
00:19:49
Speaker
and bigger. I think that each to their own. But I don't think that risking it all and eating baked beans actually works at our type of business. Because what I think happens when money is such a focus, then you make decisions that aren't authentic for your brand. This is just my personal opinion. So instead of if we had huge outstanding debts, I think we'd be like, what can we sell? This has to be on sale, where now we're like, you know what?
00:20:16
Speaker
start moving into scarcity and then you start making decisions based on scarcity. Yeah and I mean you have to sometimes and so that's like you know but we've tried to make sure that we were doing things that would just make all our decisions and all the things that we wanted to do was just made on what we thought was authentic like we even took six months off really like
00:20:36
Speaker
six months to kind of redirect the business, obviously, you know, start a different manufacturing. And in that six months, we didn't really sell anything that much. And we were like still trying to build this story, you know, we hired technical designers, we were able to spend that six months really like, you know, turning the business into this other direction. But we weren't constantly thinking about money because we kind of put ourselves in a situation where we realized that that was really, really important to turn this ship around. And also like retail's changing and what customers want.
00:21:05
Speaker
But we've given ourselves that time to be able to do it. If we had all this risk and like, you know, we kind of overshot, we wouldn't have been able to do that because we would have been worried about all the cogs and all of the invoices, all this stuff that we were going to have to pay. And so I have worked out and also for my mental health.
00:21:24
Speaker
also for my own kindness to myself, feeling that kind of, what is it like that? The spiral. Yes, spiral can also be quite detrimental because, you know, as you know, having a small business, it's every day that you're thinking about it. It doesn't really stop. You might get a Sunday here or there. So 24, 7. So for me, I realized that my risk
00:21:46
Speaker
I wish that it was probably bigger because I look at some colleagues or people that have had brands that have really taken some risks and it's paid off and I look at them and I'm like, wow, but I've worked out for myself. I'm a 50-50. Sometimes you go big and sometimes you just stay in your lane. Stay in your lane. I really love that.
00:22:05
Speaker
I mean I think what's interesting is I caught up with you I think when I bought three pieces from your collection down at the Queen Vic Market it was the first time I'd driven past your store there and you had said to me that you're going to take a pause and I thought wow I actually remember getting in the car after that going.
00:22:25
Speaker
The sense of control, I suppose the bravery in saying actually we need a bit of a pause moment when traditionally everyone's always in sales, sales, sales, sales, sales, sales, sales, grow, grow, grow strategy. I really remember driving home that day thinking that is actually a boss move.
00:22:44
Speaker
that what the two of you needed then was to regroup, refocus, rethink, but to take the space you needed to do that is actually a really brave move. There are risks associated with not that you've ever spent less time on your socials because you're so
00:23:02
Speaker
officials always seem to be on, but there is risk, I suppose, in pausing that, are you going to be less visible because you're not there? Are you going to be, are people going to forget about you? Are people going to think that you've closed or failed or whatever that is? But I thought you managed that communication to your audience really beautifully and you know, you've come back absolutely thriving. So I think that is a really boss move. Well, to be honest, it's interesting after you and I had that chat,
00:23:32
Speaker
Two things happened. We were brave enough. I didn't even think that it was a fail for me in business There's no fail because you've tried you've gone so much like I look at before I had collective closets I worked corporate. It was a great job But like for me to get to where I am right now I couldn't have done it in that job I would have had to prove myself for years and years and burn myself, you know
00:23:53
Speaker
Like I've gone from here to here really quickly, being my own boss. And so I look at that and I go, oh, that's not a failure if the business didn't work. Second, the business wasn't going to work if we kept going like that. So for me, it was a no brainer. And after that, I spoke to so many other business owners and they came to us and they were like, Oh my God, that is the most refreshing thing. I know. Like I was one of those people. I was like, Oh my God, that is
00:24:19
Speaker
I really reflected after that. Working in the creative industry, and we work with a lot of brands, obviously, even in our creative process, one of the things I always talk to the team about is knowing when to stop.
00:24:35
Speaker
and reflect. So if something's not working or if you need to rethink, there's always like, there's a sort of a natural push and momentum to go, we just got to keep going. There's a deadline, there's a deadline. And the strength in saying, actually, we need to pause is something that I try to talk to the team about and going, if something doesn't feel right or you feel like you need to find the space, put your hand up and let's talk about that as a team.
Leadership and Team Collaboration
00:25:01
Speaker
I've never really, I suppose, been brave enough to do that with the business though. And there have been many times, and even recently really, coming out of COVID, we're coming up to 12 years in business, especially as a solo operator. 12 years is a long time to be at the front of the ship with the wind blowing your face off.
00:25:21
Speaker
So, I really think that was a brave move and I, like other people, as you mentioned, I really thought, wow, would I be brave enough to say, actually, I'm going to cut back a bit and take a bit of a pause.
00:25:36
Speaker
I haven't done yet. Watch your space. It might happen. Well, the thing about it is we didn't really like, I thought I was going to do some gardening. I actually thought I was going to stop. But really what happened was we spent our time working out what our next step was. And that took a lot of time. So we weren't doing it like maybe 24 seven that we were doing before, but we were still like.
00:25:54
Speaker
actively working on it. And then we got all these amazing opportunities at the same time. And again, if we were back in what mode that we were in before, these opportunities would have come in and we wouldn't have been able to actually... Would have been another email that you just wouldn't have even had the space to think about.
00:26:09
Speaker
100% like we didn't have the manufacturing to be able to move forward with that. We just didn't have the things to take us from here to there. So it doesn't have to be like pause, you know, shut down your computer. It just needs to be like, hold on. Let's just see what's working. What isn't. And sometimes it just goes back to numbers of rule. Like we're doing a summer, a winter, trans seasonal, and I'm just running the numbers and I'm like, Oh, actually that was a bit of a donut. That's a lot.
00:26:35
Speaker
It's a lot. But the amount of energy it took to create that donut was a lot. So taking the pause and refocusing doesn't mean success. It doesn't mean that we're going to be like the best now, but it's going to be on our terms. And that's another thing with running your own business. Sometimes you forget you are the boss because you get like, you know, in this roller coaster. So it was a win win for all of us, to be honest. And now we feel a lot more better. I mean, it's pretty full on still, but it's just a space set and it's a business that we want to work in.
00:27:05
Speaker
That is really inspiring and I'm sure people listening will feel the same. So let's talk about being a brand boss and I know for some people the word boss doesn't resonate or does resonate. I suppose I want to understand, do you ever think about yourself as your own boss or when you hear the word boss, what does that mean for you?
00:27:28
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't really. The other day my son asked me, it's like, mum, who's the boss at Collective Closets? And I was like, I don't know. Someone else. No, because I feel like the way that we work and we've got a team, a small team and then a bigger team, because we've got a lot of freelancers, a couple of people that work only a couple of days a week. I look at myself as.
00:27:49
Speaker
learning all the time. You know, like this year we've had a few people that are more technical, so I'm learning from them. So I don't feel like I'm a boss. I feel like I'm like the person that lets them do what they want to do creatively. I get to, you know, do what I want to do creatively and we kind of co-collaborate as I would say.
00:28:06
Speaker
And then I'm also the person that when things aren't going right, it's me just being like, what's happening here? You know, steering the ship back to the course. So I'd call myself, I don't know if I'd say I'm a boss, I'd say like, you know, maybe I'm just like a leader of the team.
00:28:21
Speaker
Because everyone, like, there's so many bosses in the team. Like, the way we got Lois Hazel, she's a boss at what she does. And I come to her with all the, you know, questions and advice on what's going to make our collection. And then we've got another girl, Fuzz, who's a boss at her, you know, construction. And I come to her even last night at like 11.30. She was like, I was asking her about how the fabrics are working together. And she was like this and that. It's going to be amazing. So I'm not the boss of that.
00:28:49
Speaker
Yeah. You're taking the risk, I suppose.
Learning and Growth from Mistakes
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm putting my name to it, but I'm definitely in a team. Yeah. I mean, I've always had an uncomfortable relationship. Like when I'm in a meeting and someone says, my boss, I'm sort of looking around as in like, who are they talking about?
00:29:04
Speaker
And I wonder if it's because traditionally it's been such a gendered word. You know, if you think about all the stereotypes of the word boss, like the first thing I think about is a white middle-aged man in a suit, a white suit with like a blue tie, like an accountant or something.
00:29:22
Speaker
You know, like the middle manager sort of vibe. So I wonder also if there's just, yeah, some sort of, I don't know, historical patriarchal attachment to the word boss that makes people uncomfortable or certainly makes women uncomfortable. 100%. And also maybe in most of my early careers, I had male bosses.
00:29:40
Speaker
Some of them were not my favorite. So I was, I wasn't always like aspirationally, like I want to do that. I get that. I get that. I've got here, what's been your biggest boss fuck up, but I think what's important in business is sharing the vulnerability of the successes, but also the failures.
00:30:03
Speaker
What's been a moment where you really feel like, oh God, like I've either made the wrong decision or I've been too slow in a decision and I've missed an opportunity. Has that ever happened for you? Yeah, I think last year was a bit like that. Because the coronavirus, what had happened was all the supply chains just weren't working as effectively. Everything was waiting, so we rushed.
00:30:27
Speaker
We're always rushing because we were like pivoting all the time. We were just rushing. And there was a moment I remember where I was like, I think that we should take a bit more time on this. And we're like, oh, but it's going to be so late. The season will be so like, let's just rush through it. So lastly, I think we made some decisions and we're also listening to the customers too much. They're like, we want this, we want that, we want that. And instead of me just being like, actually, I know that's working.
00:30:50
Speaker
This is my brand. Yeah. Oh, like I'll take a little bit on, but you know, essentially this is what I know is going to work. I kind of just got clouded in this like communal brand. Just too many. Yeah. And so last year was a bit like that. I think for me before we had thou pause a little bit of a rush, a little bit of a, lots of people were taking shortcuts because.
00:31:10
Speaker
they were all rushing and i think it was because the supply chain situation was just going everywhere like one manufacturer would have like 30 clients and everyone's rushing to get their collection in because it meant all of these other things for them so i think last year if i there's so many moments where i was like if i would have just done this and i would have done that and i think with business you're always learning
00:31:32
Speaker
I'm sure like this year, even this year, I can see that I'm well more prepared. I know that. I know that I'm going to make mistakes, but also the mistakes, like I'm glad last year happened because this year is so much more exciting. And I think about all the opportunities that are coming my way or our way. And I'm glad that those mistakes are made last year. So now that I'm taking bigger projects on, they're not happening, you know? So I don't even look at them as,
00:31:59
Speaker
as mistakes as they are, they're mistakes.
Curating Opportunities
00:32:01
Speaker
I think that you need these mistakes. They're the opportunities. Yeah. Cause I feel like if you already know everything, then how do you move forward? How do you really keep pushing? How do you improve? Yeah, I totally respect that. You mentioned something before about opportunities and obviously you're exhibiting at the NGV. How do you curate those opportunities? Because I'm sure you get approached all the time. Well, maybe I'm making an assumption.
00:32:26
Speaker
But I think it's such a cool brand that I'm assuming you get approached all the time. How do you sort of curate where you invest your time so that you don't get so distracted? Because it's easy to get distracted, I think, in business where I've always talked about I tend to operate a little bit with blinkers on. And that's not from an arrogant perspective, but certainly when I think about my competitive circle or my
00:32:51
Speaker
community in the creative industry, there's so much competition. Everyone pitching against each other and winning tenders and not winning tenders. And my philosophy has always been that if I get too distracted by looking around to what everyone else is doing all the time, then I lose focus of where I'm actually going. Is that something similar for you? How do you know where to put your focus?
00:33:14
Speaker
Well, I'm lucky because I don't have FOMO. So I actually love when people are doing amazing, but it doesn't reflect or actually... Yeah, you don't connect it or attach it to you. No, when I see other brands doing amazing, Linda and I are like, wow, that is so great. Congrats. Yeah. Like we're cheerleaders. And if it means something for us, it's probably just like, oh my God, we probably just need to improve or, oh, or sometimes it's like, oh, that person has done this, but also like it's acquired more from them that we don't have to give.
00:33:42
Speaker
Yeah. I don't have kids, so I don't have to worry about that. So I look at it and go, oh, wow, that's amazing. But I can't commit to that. It's not for me. Yeah. So first of all, I'm lucky I don't have FOMO. Like, even when my friends are out, I'm just like, good for you, girl.
00:33:55
Speaker
drink that cocktail on the rooftop. Yeah. That's a philosophy through my whole life. Yeah. Is that something that you always have had? Cause I, that resonates for me definitely as I've gotten older and I just care less about what people think. But yeah, is that something that growing up, you've always had that sort of sense of self, I think.
00:34:14
Speaker
Maybe not in high school. I've been told from a few people that went to high school. It's just a vortex, isn't it? A shame, high school. But I think from after high school, I think I remember turning 18 and I was going to uni. I remember just being like staying in my lane and being really happy and content with that. I think that I really had like a bit of a mental breakdown kind of when I finished high school because I realised that I wasn't sure.
00:34:41
Speaker
What am I doing? Enter school, you're like, oh my God, what does that mean? Where do I fall? Where am I going to go with my life? And I remember after that time, that was it. I just kind of just did my own. Yeah. And so because I've always had that, I'm not really that fast. But also I think that my job in life or my role in life is actually to be the cheerleader.
00:35:04
Speaker
We need more cheerleading people. No, I don't think LaRinda is like the perfect because her and I cheerlead each other, we cheerlead other brands, we cheerlead our friends, we cheerlead our families. So that's our role in the way we kind of also have our business. It's very rare that we're like, why aren't we there? And I think that when you start to go, why, why, there's probably a reason why you're not there. Yeah. And there's a bitterness that comes with that, isn't there?
00:35:27
Speaker
And I also feel like the universe, and this is actually my philosophy, the universe will give you something when you are ready. There's often opportunities where I've like maybe had like, oh, why? And I was not ready for that opportunity. I always think that if I started collected closets in my twenties, it would have been a total disaster because I wanted to party. You know, I didn't have the discipline to do it. And because that's my mantra as well, my mind, like the universe is,
00:35:53
Speaker
then I never think, oh, well, why not me? Or why not us? In terms of juggling the situations, I mean, when the NDV asks you to do something, you're like, we're doing that. Nobody says soz. We're just, yeah. But we've had to learn how to say no. And I think also learning how to say, what will this do for the business? If it's not really a moneymaker, then what is it? It's an exposure.
00:36:15
Speaker
like profile building, is it supporting the community? What sort of pillar does it fit into the business and how does it serve you? Yeah, and sometimes it's just not a no, it's just like a not, right, this is not gonna work right now, but we're really interested, let's just do it next year. Because I feel like sometimes you say yes, yes, yes, yes, which is what we did for the last five years, and it ended up burning us out. And when we did some of these projects, because we were so burnt out, it didn't actually kind of land in the way that we thought. So now we're kind of like,
00:36:45
Speaker
We love it. We actually think that this is going to be really successful next year for these reasons. And we want to engage in that because we know that that's going to work for them and saying it to people. And often they're really excited because they're like, you know what? You're right. We're not rushing through this. We're not not considering ABCD. And we're actually having this organic and authentic conversations with other people, like with our audience and also like going back to sustainability.
Sustainability and Community Focus
00:37:12
Speaker
Sometimes it's like, does the world need another
00:37:15
Speaker
this. Yeah. Right now, you know, like we've already released this. Do they need it? Is it better that we do save it for next year? Because I don't want my customers to just be buying, buying, buying, buying. I'm happy for customers coming to my shop. And I'm sometimes like, no, Lisa, you've already bought like, you've got 12 pieces of that collection. You can't have any more. I mean, that said, I did try to buy the bomber jacket. It was already sold out.
00:37:41
Speaker
Honestly, because it's also that. And I think that when I'm having those organic conversations with customers, I think they also think like, you know what? It's true. It's not just about the money you're making. It's also, you know, what does this impact make?
00:37:53
Speaker
I love that. I also like the sentiment I suppose that I see in that idea around curating some of those probably also helps you make some decisions around where the authentic partnerships might be versus just people who are wanting to
00:38:10
Speaker
fill a gap quickly if they're prepared to keep engaging with you and you know you can slowly start to sort of build that relationship as opposed to let's just get in and out and not that that's it you never you never hear from them again yeah and that's one of the reasons when i first started my business i went to all of those kind of
00:38:29
Speaker
networking nights. And in the end, I actually went I'm talking to the same people all the time. I never ended up connecting with anyone. There's no long term partnerships here. I ended up finding that going to different kind of smaller community groups is what served me as opposed to those big sort of
00:38:49
Speaker
300 people and then you all sit there and have your cup of tea. You eat too much and you know, you drop a card in a bowl and that's it. There's no kind of sustaining partnerships. You're not really building a community around you. Well, the funny thing is I've only went to a few of those and the ones that I went to weirdly, like the people that I connected with, I actually then have still connected like you.
00:39:10
Speaker
Unbelievable. I went to that one. Well, I mean, that was a great day. Yeah. But, like, Manik from Womar Studios, like, she recently wore our piece at the Design Files for her house. Oh, amazing. Emily, her and I, I was sending her an email soon about a collab. So, like, the ones that I have, because, yeah, there's lots of people, you're kind of like, is this really what I want? Is this, is anything going to come out of it? But the ones that I have gone to,
00:39:36
Speaker
And I've made a connection with that person has actually really kind of served me long-term. And I think you've been to better ones tonight. I think that's what I'm putting it down to. You've been to some good ones. Well, I'm glad, personally. I wanted to ask you, and if you can't think of anything on the spot, that is completely fine, but Bite Big podcast starts with two Bs.
Bold Business Decisions
00:39:56
Speaker
So we thought, why not ask what your biggest B moment has been? Is there anything coming up for you?
00:40:03
Speaker
I think probably bold. I mean, you know, I think bold. I feel like whenever I've thought about, um, the brand, I'm like, Oh my God, that was a bold move. Who opens up a retail store and didn't really put together a business plan that was bold or that's bold to just start a brand. It's bold to just manufacturing Kenya. Like, so I think bold is probably, yeah. And I don't even know it until after the moment. I'm like, Oh my God, that is quite bold. How did I think I could do that?
00:40:27
Speaker
Yeah. Well, if I had to capture the aesthetic of your brand in one word, I think bold would be one of the first words I would use to describe it. And I think, you know, you mentioned before around the way you want customers to feel when they're wearing your garments. And I definitely think that sense of boldness comes through in how I feel when I'm wearing this. Like it's got a sense of sort of.
00:40:54
Speaker
attitude, but also like a, like a power that you sort of feel like it's so beautifully crafted and it's sort of different, but not too, I don't know, flamboyant. You know, it's not frilly. It's just kind of like it's gutsy. So that definitely resonates. All right. Bold. We're going to remember that. The other thing I really think is important to talk about is
00:41:15
Speaker
What you would say to your younger self if you could go back and say, hey, listen to this or read this, what would that be for you?
Influences and Recommendations
00:41:26
Speaker
I think that's true. So I think that if I had listened to that podcast and I still listen to it a lot is Second Life. It's a US based one and I've stopped listening to as many US based ones. But I remember listening to it and it's just about women that have had one career.
00:41:44
Speaker
and then they move into their second career. Oh, I like that sentiment. And that second career, I mean, tends to be quite big in this podcast. Um, but I wish that I learned that really when I was young. It's like, I can start off being whatever I want and you actually have like a really long working career, like 50 years. Oh, it's getting longer and longer with retirement age. Yeah. Instead of going, I need to be this one thing to know that you could have like 15 years in one career.
00:42:10
Speaker
retrain to another 15 years and then end on something that you want to is really, really powerful. It's like, oh yeah, maybe you didn't have enough marks to become a doctor, but it means that you could still work towards it. You could literally train, you could work, start doing something else and you could become, or you become a florist. Like I could still become a florist. You know what I mean? Like knowing that. Don't be some pretty amazing arrangements. I reckon him likes a pretty bold floristry. But like that,
00:42:38
Speaker
listening to those stories and you know, some of them are quite like instant and some of these women are like hustling and then they, you know, some of them are really executives on a board and then they turn out and, you know, do something else, you know, yeah. $50 million companies. And then I think some of the books that I wish I read earlier was James Baldwin, who was an African-American activist and reading his words and really understanding the fight of, you know,
00:43:07
Speaker
acceptance and fighting for what he thought was right was really, really interesting. Like just hearing at him and Angela Davis having knowing that you come into life at these warriors of people that think like you and, you know, like really have these, you know, they spent all their time in Paris and really having these global thoughts and having this really big wide lens of the world. I wish that I kind of got introduced to that earlier in my life. I think it would have made me feel
00:43:37
Speaker
a lot more braver. Is there a specific book? I think I read a series of his essays. Ah okay. I remember just going oh wow what a powerful man and just hearing him speak because he has this like nice raspy kind of voice. I just remember being like oh my god that is so amazing that someone has this talking about the potential of a whole race of people where people at that time people had thought about them in such different way and he was like they're in Paris you know
00:44:04
Speaker
you know, poets and artists and like really paving this way and changing people's perceptions was just so interesting and powerful. And when did you come across those essays? How old were you? Well, when we started, when we started Collected Closets, we did like, and we still do it every
00:44:19
Speaker
season, we work on a theme. And that was just one of the themes that we were just introducing really powerful, interesting, you know, black people into what we were doing and understanding like what, why we're having those conversations about it. And so Lauren, it was like, you know, start researching. And then I started to reading, I got into it and then this would have been a rabbit hole. I'd imagine of like, Oh my God, where have you been all my life?
00:44:41
Speaker
And now we were doing like weekly EDMs and we were like, you know, recommending different books for people to read and audio. And so we were like constantly reading and doing all, it was really, really beautiful. And I really, people kept emailing us saying, Oh my God, I just read that or I just listened to that. And I just was like, Oh, this is so powerful.
00:44:59
Speaker
It is.
Closing and Charitable Support
00:45:00
Speaker
I mean, that's one of the things I like about contemporary culture around podcasting is every time I talk to someone, you know, it used to be that you would recommend a book. And now it's also the medium is so much more open that you can recommend a book or a podcast or a radio show if people are still doing radio. But the idea that you can share that knowledge and there's nothing better than when you come across something that someone recommends you like.
00:45:25
Speaker
Oh my God, that is so beautiful. I wish, you know, I can't wait to share it with other people. Yeah. So good. I love it. I love it. So that's a wrap for us. I really want to say thank you for tumor for being not only such an amazing business inspiration to so many people and I'm sure future generations.
00:45:44
Speaker
for not only co-hosting today, but just for showing us your version of biting big with little small chunks along the way, not too big. And I loved your mantra about always being kind. One of the things I've really taken away from our conversation today is
00:46:00
Speaker
this idea of doing it on your terms. And, you know, there's certainly I can think of many times in my life or in business where I feel like I'm a slave to the business or I'm, you know, I'm just constantly doing work for the business as opposed to is this serving me. So I really love the idea of this is on our terms. Yeah.
00:46:21
Speaker
That's beautiful. And I would like to say that this podcast is made by women and to show our gratitude, we donate $500 to each of our guests and you have chosen the charity Sisters Inside who support criminalised women, girls, children and families. So I'm really interested to understand what that significance is for you.
00:46:42
Speaker
But I read about this charity, I think it was maybe through the COVID era. And it's again about being kind, yeah. So it's a charity that supports women that have been in prison or have been in that institution and then they come out and it's like, what are they doing? Like we all make mistakes. It doesn't need to shape the rest of your life. And also the children's lives, I'd imagine for those. Children, family and the people that help co-parent while you're away.
00:47:11
Speaker
I feel like everyone, everyone's got the ability and I don't think people understand it. You could be, you know, texting when you're driving and, you know, that's totally legal. And you hit someone that changes the trajectory of your life because you've, you know, killed someone. And all you need is someone to be kind and invest in you. And that's what she does. Debbie's a really amazing person. And I'm like, oh wow. How did you come across Debbie and sisters inside?
00:47:33
Speaker
Well, it was through the Black Lives Matter movement. People were talking about Indigenous businesses and, you know, organisations that were really transformative. And we have such a poor record in this country of Indigenous incarceration. And so I'd imagine, yeah, it's an important topic.
00:47:50
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Just giving people a second chance, you know, not stereotyping them and saying, you've done this and this is what it means. And changing that generational change as well, knowing that, like, maybe this has happened to your family, but my mum's then gone on to do a million other things and, you know, she's changed our lives. You know, making a mistake doesn't mean that your whole life is ruined. And I love that she's actually, you know, there's mentoring in there, there's support, there's all these other programs that actually uplift these group of women.
00:48:19
Speaker
That's really incredible. I hadn't heard of them. So thank you for introducing sisters inside. And we'll definitely put the link to that in our show notes. Well, I've been your host, Amber Bonny. And until next episode, may you bite big and chew like hell. Thank you for having me. Bye. Bye.