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Amber Bites Big with Shamini Rajarethnam , CEO Rationale Skincare
47 Plays29 days ago
In Episode 17 of BITE BIG, we go behind the scenes of one of Australia's most successful luxury skincare brands, Rationale, with its trailblazing CEO, Shamini Rajarethnam. From navigating global expansion and regional relocation, to staying ruthlessly focused in a fragmented market, Shamini shares the story of building an enduring brand without compromising on values.
With a mantra passed down from her father, "Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care", Shamini's leadership style is deeply human, deeply strategic, and unapologetically clear on what matters most: purpose, people, and integrity.
👑 Boss Takeaways from Episode 17 with Sharm
- Leadership is caring: Sharm’s leadership mantra reminds us that empathy and connection are the real currencies of influence.I
- Curiosity builds capability - From digital marketer to CEO, Sharm’s rise was fuelled by intellectual curiosity, humility, and the courage to ask questions, no ego required.“
- Integrity is your strategy- Saying no to distractions and staying laser-focused on your North Star isn’t just brand discipline it’s brand leadership.
- Culture starts at the top You can’t delegate culture. Sharm leads her team with the same care and intention she brings to her customers.
- Bite big, but know when to stop- From global expansion to building a regional HQ, Sharm proves that knowing when to pivot or quit is as brave as pushing forward.
- DE&I drives insight - Diversity isn’t a checkbox—it’s a competitive edge. From packaging to policy, inclusive voices lead to better decisions and better design.
🔗 Follow BITE BIG for more unfiltered stories from women who lead big—one mantra at a time.
Links:
Shamini's LinkedIn
Shamini's Instagram
Rationale Skincare
Rationale Instagram
Rationale Facebook
Primed to Perform by Neel Doshi
The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins
Fight Parkinson’s
Amber's Instagram
Amber's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's Instagram
CREDITS
Host & ECD – Amber Bonney, The Edison Agency Founder
Producer – Niki Beeston, Group Account Director, The Edison Agency
Marketing – Liz Archer, Head of Operations, The Edison Agency
Social Assets – Alyssa Payad, Intern, The Edison Agency
Post Production – Francine Toscano, 17th Street Audio
Recommended
Transcript
Acknowledgment of Traditional Owners
00:00:00
Speaker
On behalf of the Bite Big team, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are recording on today, the Boon Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation. We recognise that with over 60,000 years of experience, First Peoples of Australia are most definitely the original storytellers, designers and artists this country, and we pay our respect to their elders past, present and emerging.
Introduction of Amber and The Edison Agency
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello, before we get stuck into this episode of Bite Big, let me tell you a little bit about who the hell I am and why this content is important to me. My name's Amber Bonney and for the past 25 years, I've been reshaping iconic Australian and international brands, helping them stay relevant, get noticed and be remembered in the good kind of way.
00:00:47
Speaker
I'm a passionate feminist and committed to advocating for better representation of women in senior creative and marketing roles, which is why this podcast is proudly brought to you by my business, The Edison Agency.
00:01:00
Speaker
If your brand or organisation needs help aligning your vision to your reputation, then you can find us at www.edison.agency you can connect with me on LinkedIn.
Podcast Focus on Female Leaders and Rationale Brand
00:01:11
Speaker
Let's get into it.
00:01:21
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Season 3, Episode 17 of Bite Big, the podcast that dives into the journeys of fearless female leaders redefining industries and brands. I'm your host, Amber Bonny, founder of the Edison Agency, and today we are talking about one of Australia's biggest export success stories in the luxury skincare industry, the Rationale brand, and the driving force behind the brand's growth.
00:01:44
Speaker
is our co-host today, CEO Sharmini Rajaratnam. Welcome, Sharmini Rajaratnam. Hi, Amber. Thank you so much for having me. That's a wonderful introduction. Well, I am about to go through all of your accomplishments in a couple of paragraphs. Oh, dear. Yeah, yes sit tight.
00:02:01
Speaker
So having established your career working in marketing and digital departments for media startups and fashion brands in Singapore and Australia, you joined Rationale in 2011 and it seemed like you were very quickly exposed to many facets of the business from talent development, branding, strategic operations and in 2015 you took over as general manager.
00:02:22
Speaker
Through your connection with the Rationale founders, Richard and Greg Parker, and maybe we'll hear a little bit about that later, you've really taken the brand to new heights. So you've led the transition into Kyneton, which is in Victoria, delivered a major partnership with Korean beauty giant Amore Pacific, I hope I said that right, and you've driven global expansion into Asia and now the USA to name just a few of those accomplishments.
Sharmini's Leadership Philosophy and Personal Mantra
00:02:46
Speaker
Since stepping into the CE role in 2017, you've spearheaded really remarkable growth, transforming the brand from medical agency exclusive to now what's defined as a global luxury skincare empire.
00:02:59
Speaker
Maybe that's bit of a dramatic word. I noticed you were recently at the American Chamber of Commerce's International Women's Day panel, and you no doubt have a strong point of view on the current climate for women.
00:03:11
Speaker
And I'm hoping we might hear something about that later on. But let's kick this off and get under the skin of why we think you're a boss woman leading big. All right. Now we know the the sentiment of this podcast is all around being focused on um the mantra. So bite big comes from my personal mantra, bite big and chew like hell.
00:03:32
Speaker
I love that. going to start using that one as well. It's, yeah, it's gotten me into some hot water, but also driven me to, yeah, pursue my dreams. Successes, let me share with our listeners your mantra. Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care. Now, I had to practice that a few times because I kept getting the words mixed up. Yeah. so tell me about that. Is this a mantra that you have had for a while or is this something that's quite new?
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I think it has been something my dad said to me when I was growing up. Right. And I used to travel with my dad quite a fair bit when he was working and he'd sort of get along as sort of an assistant to to sort of help with logistics and stuff. And he always sort of came back to the sentiment of people need to care and they need to know that you you care.
00:04:22
Speaker
And through this sort of journey of stepping into leadership and not really knowing what I was doing, primarily, it was really important for me to sort of figure out something that sort of was a bit of a North Star. And this seemed to be a very truthful and authentic North Star for myself in terms of I genuinely like to know people's stories. I'm sort of the person that, you know, when we start in a meeting, I sort of always ask, what did you like?
00:04:48
Speaker
what did you do on the weekend? But I genuinely want to know, is there something that I'm missing out on? Or is there a new restaurant or a new trail or what is really interesting about somebody? And I feel like I can,
Staying True to Brand Values
00:05:00
Speaker
I can form a connection that's quite true as opposed to how's the weather? What did you actually do on the weekend and not really care about those things.
00:05:07
Speaker
And it just sort of meant that forming a connection, especially in ah in a business that was quite small, was really important because people aren't just working with each other for a purpose when you're in a small business, right? You're working together in a team because you really believe in one another and you want to make each other's dreams come true. Yes, that's so true. And I think that's the sentiment of where this came from. And it is a quote from Teddy Roosevelt as well. And so I've just sort of used it quite sort of subconsciously in everything I do.
00:05:35
Speaker
I like the idea of it being the North Star. You sort of come back to it, right? Because you can lead in so many different ways, but ultimately connection, care, kindness sort of comes through that. And people will listen to you and they will take your knowledge or experiences if they know that you care enough about, you know, whether it's them their jobs, their teams.
00:05:56
Speaker
And it's always been a way that I've led. just has happened fairly organically, but this kind of ties everything together for me. Yeah, i feel like this sentiment is now playing out with the Tesla brand and the stock ah plummeting because it doesn't really matter how much people think he knows if they don't think he cares. Yeah.
00:06:16
Speaker
yeah And is this something, do you think, that is a ah sort of a conscious reminder or do you think now it's just embedded into the way that you behave and lead? I think it's just embedded in the way that I lead. I think because it didn't start out as I've got to find a mantra that will guide me.
00:06:31
Speaker
um i need something on a tote bag. Exactly. I need to wake up every morning and sort of say it to myself three times. Yes. It just genuinely comes together. And I use it in a way where, you know, when I'm sort of chomping at the bit and I want to get an answer or I want to get a project done, I kind of slow myself down and you know, ultimately remind myself, let's do that bit of connection because it's important to me. Like it that's what fulfills me as well before, you know, we then get into the nitty gritty of business. Rush into the detail details. Yeah. So I think it's definitely not a conscious reminder, which I can't imagine bite big is for you either.
00:07:06
Speaker
No, no, that's true. Sometimes, yeah, you have to stop and sometimes I have to stop and say, don't bite as big. that's That's it. Now talking about biting big. So the CEO role, it's, you know, a significant role now and you've been with the business for a really long time.
00:07:23
Speaker
you know building an aspirational Australian brand. What do you think that takes? Because there hasn't been too many in this space that have done that locally. What do you think resonates with Australian consumers about Rationale?
00:07:36
Speaker
You know, I think if I'm sort of really sort of peeling the layers back and I've done a lot of this quite deep thinking in the last sort of 12 months, particularly the landscape has changed so much. But what I always sort of come back to is there is a reason why this brand has been around for over 30 years. And part of it also starts with the vision of the founder. And yes I am somebody who's there to sort of support and build the foundations around a really strong visionary founder And I do think this comes down to ultimately he started this brand with not an end goal that we see now. So, so you know, some and sometimes people sort of start brands with a very clear vision to sort of exit and to sell the business. And they're doing it. No right or wrong motivations to starting a brand. But he ultimately started this brand with one clear vision, which was Lumina Skin for Life, which was healthy skin and giving people the confidence that comes when you're really comfortable in your skin.
00:08:32
Speaker
And I think that is our North Star as well in terms of what the business does. We kind of come back to healthy skin, what it does. We want to take the time with the relationship with our client as well.
00:08:45
Speaker
It's taken us over 30 years to really get to a point where people are are really recognizing rationale is. And it's always been a bit of ah a bit more of a secret. And we're obviously trying to open that up. But I do think ultimately it's coming back to that point of why do we do what we do?
00:09:01
Speaker
And how do you block out the noise? Because in this market, very particularly, it is so noisy and it's become even more. Well, just seems to be even more
Cultural Challenges and DEI in the Beauty Industry
00:09:10
Speaker
fragmented. And then people, you know, across whether you're consumer or whether you're a brand owner or a marketer,
00:09:17
Speaker
I think at the moment there is just so much overwhelming um content and, you know, especially in, you know, in skincare and, of course, now in skincare you have different channels that are speaking to different age groups which creates even more, you know, confusion and controversy. And I have one of those tween daughters so I'm right in the thick of that. My condolences. Yes, thank you it is a um It is a challenging time and so for a brand I think to – stay true and almost single-minded, would you say? Like trying to sort of put the blinkers on. I think the one thing I say is what really will define us is what we say no to. And as early as yesterday, we were talking to our team about some of the product development. And, you know, it's it's really great to be able to have a forum that we can say to them,
00:10:07
Speaker
you know Ask us the questions because you know they're looking at one side of their roles and what they're doing. And if they're sort of asking me, why are we not doing x Y, z there's an opportunity to do it. It's sort of to go, is that what our client really expects of us? Is that what our brand should be doing?
00:10:23
Speaker
And it's so easy to get distracted and lured by, but we could sort of target this market who's a little bit The quick wins. And that market. And it's like, but that's not who we are. So it's about my job is really to hone in and remind everybody,
00:10:40
Speaker
Let's not get distracted. It's okay to say no to opportunities because bigger opportunities will come. But it is that singular focus of let's not try to be everything to everybody. It's easy to say. It's very hard to do in practice. Yeah, it is hard because you have so many departments.
00:10:55
Speaker
as you mentioned, like innovation, for example, that have, you know, they want to be, you know, meeting their KPIs in innovation or looking to be stretching into spaces that grow the portfolio. But as you said, i suppose staying true to the core of the brand sounds easier than it actually you It's but complex to do. Yeah, I think maintaining, you know, one of the things in the The branding space that there's a lot of chatter about constantly is just degree of change, how much change. And it's actually easy to chase big change, even though it comes with greater risk.
00:11:28
Speaker
It's harder to stay true and relevant consistently yeah because it's constant maintenance. it's It's the tweaking and the tweaking and the tweaking all the time to kind of stay sort of keep moving forward, but stay relevant without the changing the narrative too far, exactly left or right. And you want your core customer to not get confused with who you are and why they've attached themselves to you as well. And particularly in our industry, it is quite simple to to get that sugar hit, right? We can launch a new product as a sugar hit. But for me, it's, again, the enduring quality of
00:12:04
Speaker
how will this product do in market five years from now, not just in the next sort of six months. And ultimately that sort of helps guide why we release products, why we don't. I'm very considerate about how many products we release as well.
00:12:18
Speaker
um But ultimately comes down to our research philosophy. You know, it takes as long as it takes. We're not market-led. We're very much led by what we're seeing in terms of skin concerns presenting themselves. We have a really good network, as you sort of mentioned earlier,
00:12:31
Speaker
um of our doctor affiliates, particularly. That's the heritage of the brand. That's really important to And I suppose having that foundation and staying true to that means that there's always the integrity. You've got to maintain the integrity because as soon as you lose those affiliates because you're chasing potentially something else that they don a client that they don't agree with, I imagine there's reputational risk involved. Absolutely. So staying true to what we intend to do and their integrity is is really important to to us continuing to build what I'm trying to build, which is an enduring brand following the vision of Richard.
00:13:09
Speaker
Yeah. And do you think that in you know Australia, there's a different expectation for luxury skincare versus in international markets?
00:13:20
Speaker
I think so. i think every market is so nuanced as well. And what we've learned is, you know, the Australian market, they actually do champion entrepreneurship and newness as well. I think it's one thing I've really under so understood and experienced, which is really lovely.
00:13:36
Speaker
um But the Australian consumer, I think particularly here, is also very advanced and very discerning around son care and skin protection. Yes.
00:13:46
Speaker
a Sun protection, I should say. More so than many. mean many other It's all about the 50 plus, not the 30 plus. Exactly. And more around why and what kind you put on. And it's not just about s SPF. It's about the UVA, UVB, the visible light infrared.
00:14:01
Speaker
sort of that whole solar constant as well. And because we've been educated due to, you know, we're displaced population in the middle of of this sort of climate as well. But from an international market perspective, I know Asia very particularly, they tend to, you know, they tend to follow international brands that have made it really big, probably more from Europe and and America. So it's less likely to back, I guess, more entrepreneurial backgrounds brands. And America is the most sophisticated market. You know, we say what we want to say about it, but everybody does want to make Everyone wants to break it. Yeah. And well, they've got the population and the desire for consumerism. So so it it makes sense. But so that's where, you know, the competition is really, really stiff. And that's where I think we're obviously focused on and pursuing. But again, it's the noise of, oh, my gosh, should we do this? Should we do that? This is what the Americans need. And it's kind of coming back to base going,
00:14:56
Speaker
We can make slight changes that are nuanced to that American market. However, we've come this far because of who we are, but what we've focused on as well. So i think those are the slight differences I'm starting to notice.
00:15:08
Speaker
Yeah. And as you said, it's staying true to that course can be really complicated, especially when you're in a big business, with a big team and business. differing views.
00:15:19
Speaker
I'm curious about, so, you know, the the business side of science and beauty, which as we know, is just a mega industry and it's continuing to grow. i know you have a really strong point of view on culture, you know, back to your mantra about caring, this sense of kind of high performance yet intimate care.
00:15:38
Speaker
And I know that you believe culture starts at the top. What do you think's been the most complex challenge in being a CEO of such a large business? I think, you know, we do put culture
Leadership Challenges and Overcoming Doubts
00:15:50
Speaker
at the forefront of of what we do. And and again, i say that because in comparison to many other beauty brands or beauty conglomerates, like, you know, massive multi multinational brands, we can't compete solely on a REM package, right? Like we have to give them something else as well. So that's why culture to me is really important.
00:16:12
Speaker
But I do think that the the challenges that come with that is that as a CEO, you have to spend an exponential amount of time on it. It's not something that can sort of set and forget. You can't just create a team, you know, people in culture department and go, great, I've done that, my job's done. Or a policy or just a single... does not. It's so...
00:16:33
Speaker
nuanced. It changes day to day. Well, it's sort of running running a business like that, you have two businesses to run. You have your internal business and stakeholders and, you know, they're like your your customers and then you have your customers who are buying the product and both need They both need care. yeah I do think, you know, for for us, you know, our head of people and culture reports into me and I probably speak with her on a daily basis as well.
00:16:59
Speaker
It's so important from a cultural perspective that I do believe a happy team wants to work together. They want to make each other's dreams come true as well. And from there, ultimately, that then takes care of from a performance perspective. Yes. And, you know, we we spend a lot of time sort of making sure that there's a really strong learning and development program that's sort of inbuilt in our business. But again, that to me is as a leader, it's your job to be able to inspire and you inspire so that you can affect change. Yes. Every sort of element, you will have to change something, whether it's a strategy or product or whatever it might be. Right. Yeah.
00:17:36
Speaker
And ultimately, that will lead to delivery of performance. So it starts from that cultural aspect. It doesn't matter how good your strategy is. Yeah. future Yeah. No one's going to execute it.
00:17:48
Speaker
It's not really you're also going to be spending so much time replacing people and finding people that you're not actually getting the traction with really good people to then make this dream come true.
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah. And that at the end of the day, the strategy is invisible. It becomes, you know, the execution that people are seeing. Yeah. Yeah. And how important is the DEI in in that cultural piece?
00:18:12
Speaker
Because we know, you know, there's some global challenges around big organisations starting to say, hey, to pull back we don't have to put that effort in anymore. This is, you know, just a work economy. So we're just going to go back to the ninety s it's um i mean It's funny, right? Everybody doesn't think what's happening in the US does affect them, but it it trickles down. It trickles down into just conversational narrative. It is massive.
00:18:36
Speaker
And I think those companies that have pulled back on it never really meant to do the right thing by it if that's what they're pulling back on, right? We don't have a physical policy around it. However, I think it's a sentiment of every leader in a business, in any kind of business that you want to get the right person for the job.
00:18:54
Speaker
But what this, you know, how we really approach this and how I've seen it sort of in lived experiences is you don't know what you don't know until you have somebody that's from a diverse background. And for us, I can use the example of men, you know, we're in a beauty industry.
00:19:09
Speaker
And predominantly we attract females to the business because it's a bit more stereotypical, but it's natural for a woman to kind of like be interested in and be interested in skincare.
00:19:20
Speaker
But I'm not going to know how to change my packaging until a man comes to me and has said, oh, yes, this is really problematic for me to use. I love going to the gym or I like, you know, cycling. So I'm just popping this into my bag.
00:19:33
Speaker
This serum bottle doesn't work. But this sort of packaging really works for me. That's the flip side of, you know, DEI for me. The depth of the insights. Exactly. So for me, it's about you're spending a little bit more time finding absolutely the right person. I think what and what this why this is getting mixed up, and again, this is my opinion only, is that they're thinking that they're not getting the best person for the job when they're extending it out. It just means you've got to spend a bit more time finding the right person for the job.
00:20:04
Speaker
that then potentially has different experiences as well. And whether that's age, you know, ethnicity, gender, I think all of those things matter. Our research team is quite diverse. You know, our um we've got many different Fitzpatrick sort of skin types represented there, but yeah well we almost use ourselves as a bit of a a guardrail in terms of when we're doing zinc formulations to kind of go is that white cast on me or on my research head of research for example and Richard really does care about those things and and on the flip side we also care about you know you you don't know what you don't know until you have diverse opinions sort of
00:20:46
Speaker
in a table or you know, sitting around a table. I sort of go back to some of the policies that we have in the business. It's not by means of the founders of the business not wanting to have a parental policy in the business, but yeah they didn't have to have one because there was nobody in the business that was going through that phase, you know, six or seven years ago. yeah um But as soon as I sort of went, out there we're going to get to a point that we're going to have a cohort of parents in the business that will need this,
00:21:15
Speaker
They were super open to it. So again, it's that diversity of if we only hire older people, we're never going to know that we need this. If we only hire young people, we never know we're going to need this. So I do value and I do see the importance of it.
00:21:28
Speaker
I think making it very... particular in terms of there's a quota to to meet and big companies are sort of doing that and then pulling back it's sort of the wrong sentiment around it yeah but you know you sort of spoke to the amcham chamber sort of panel that i was on you know we had some a huge uh women sort of sitting on that, you know, the senior vice president of Walt Disney and, you know, the RMIT chancellor. And those are all really important to them. They want to find the ah best person for the job, but the diversity of opinions is important in every industry. and so Yeah. Well, I think the data tells, um you know, time and time again that, you know, great innovation and divergent thinking and creativity comes from differing perspectives.
00:22:16
Speaker
Absolutely. And so, yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. how that's going to shape you know future generations of businesses. And I think they think that DEI comes down to women in marginalised groups. But, you know, if you put the shoe on the other foot, what would that look like if we started making all product just for women, you know, as opposed to not taking into account how men want to use a specific product?
00:22:40
Speaker
It's easy not to think about it right now or service. It's easy not to think about it right now because they haven't lived that experience. So, again, it is about diversity of experience as well.
00:22:51
Speaker
Yeah, that is important. But ah it will be an ever present problem. But we do need leaders to make sure that they're fighting the good fight and doing.
00:23:02
Speaker
doing what they can to, to make sure it's imbued into different parts of the business that starts to change. Yeah. Um, the intention. And hopefully it gets to a point, I suppose, where it's not even part of the conversation. It just is the way, it is you know, there is an expectation that you will have yeah
Personal Growth and Self-Discovery Journey
00:23:20
Speaker
differing voices versus the same voices. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:23:23
Speaker
I'd like to understand what's been the biggest roadblock if you cast your eye over your whole career? What's been the biggest roadblock you've ever personally faced?
00:23:35
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. I mean, there's so many, right, with the pandemic, bringing back PTSD now. um No, I think the the biggest roadblock, not so much the pandemic, I think in a weird way that really felt like, you know, a team galvanizing together in in a really positive way. I think the biggest roadblock or the biggest challenge, i would sort of reframe it, would have been the move to Clinton. Again, you mentioned that in the intro. Yeah.
00:24:01
Speaker
And so as a skincare company, we were completely metropolitan based and in Melbourne, in Richmond. And we had a huge intention to move the business into a state of the art facility where we could bring everything into the business together. We were sort of running out of space in in Richmond.
00:24:20
Speaker
um And so that transformation of of getting a team together that was so now used to coming off the back of the the pandemic, being at home, having hybrid work, um not having to come into work and then sort of saying, hey, P.S., we're moving right out to regional Victoria. Come along. Come along for the ride. Come along for the ride. Yeah.
00:24:40
Speaker
It's not, you know, distance far in terms of it's 75 kilometres out of the city, but, you know, anywhere where the V-line is going, it's country. It's country. Yeah. yeah So that's probably been one of the biggest, I guess, challenges in terms of how we were able to really transform the business and manage that change transformation as well as we could. i think we were very acutely aware of the realities of what that meant.
00:25:06
Speaker
We spent a lot of time to the lead up of it it wasn't a secret that we sort of just sprung on on the team people had known about it for about almost four years before it actually happened they were part of the process of it getting built as well as in i mean it's a spectacular building it's incredible it is c incredible but it it you know you're sort of also understanding the sentiment of of the workforce sort of going, oh, my goodness, I have this time that I now have to commute, you know, to. And it was also from a business perspective not to have short term solutions of this is what we can throw at people or do we give them free breakfast or free coffees? It's so easy to go into what are those quick fix yeah fixes?
00:25:50
Speaker
But again, you if you if people are going to leave the business for personal reasons, we expected that to do so. But what could We offer them that was a bit more long term. And, you know, again, I come back to the culture of the business as well and what we could give them from a professional point of view, progression, but also for them to really, you know, be really attached to the brand and to go, I want to be on this journey to see where this can go. We were on the cusp of doing really big things in terms of going international as well. yeah And I think with that, that's probably another big one where there's been a lot of challenge for us as well, going international. So coming back
00:26:28
Speaker
to any of the other sort of hard roadblocks would have been or the challenges. Not only was that a huge transition, but I think the the want and the will to go international and to make it as big as it was in Australia, it doesn't happen as easily. You know, we we're going from being a full-grown ah adult in Australia to then having to start again as a toddler.
00:26:53
Speaker
So I think that's that's a point where that's been really challenging. But I think with challenge comes the the excitement of, do you have it in you? Do you have the chutzpah to go through this?
00:27:05
Speaker
And did you ask yourself those, quite like, were there moments where you're like, Do I have it? Do I have it Absolutely. Absolutely. And you kind of, you know, you're on the cusp of resignation of yourself being like, oh, God, this is way too hard. Or do we have the right team or do we not have this? But ultimately, you're never going to have everything you need to make something come alive. Right. And I think that's the interesting part. And that's where the team that you have.
00:27:29
Speaker
really kind of, again, galvanized together to come up with a strategy. And I think it's about being really honest around people are so used to winning. We talk about winning and how do you win more? But what really shows you the character and the resilience and the agency of your team is when you're losing.
00:27:46
Speaker
And does everybody have it in them to get back on the winning track as well? And think that's the part, weirdly, that really excites me to go, when you're low, how do you get back to to getting high? And I truly believe we have the right team We know how to pivot. We have the agility um to change the strategies. But you have to first believe in it to then, you know, inspire inspire other people to then affect the change that you need. And We absolutely have gone through that in the last couple of years, but it's also knowing when to quit at the right time and demystifying quitting being a bad thing. It's you're quitting this thing to then pursue this as well to get rid of that sunk cost fallacy of we've put so much into this, we've spent so much money, we just have to keep going.
00:28:33
Speaker
You need to know when to stop. Yeah, we call that fail forward. Failure is a natural part of innovation and and progress. But sometimes, yeah, you have to know when to stop ye and be able to move forward. Otherwise, not sort of wallow.
00:28:50
Speaker
What advice would you give to, you know, you spoke a little bit about being, you know, on the cusp of change. And, you know, there's this is real challenge that a lot of women have, especially in the sort of emerging parts of their career where they feel like they can't take that next leap or they're nervous because they don't feel like they have a voice. What advice would you give them?
00:29:13
Speaker
I think firstly, sort of to internally look and go, is it something internal that is holding you back? Because so much of of this, and again, this is shared experiences, is that what usually holds us back is not external forces, it's internal as well. We don't think we're good enough.
00:29:30
Speaker
um I mean, you would have faced challenges even just the the ageism I've heard from younger women in senior roles that they have a challenge around not being taken seriously. It's more the age than gender yeah in in some aspects. But what I do know when I was sitting in those big sort of board meetings and whether it was when we were selling the company or parts of the company to Moray Pacific, it was i could i could very much be confident to go, i might not know anything about this, this or this, but sure as
Learning from Failures and Building Resilience
00:30:00
Speaker
hell, I know a lot about rationale. I know what makes us special, but i also know the industry and I know my role and what I'm supposed to do.
00:30:09
Speaker
Everything else sure, I can't, you know, I don't know about engineering a car or, yeah you know, something else, but this I know. And that's the part that I constantly remind myself about. I know this really well. And having that, again, that internal dialogue to go, you don't need to know everything about anything. To stay to what you do now and be confident in that. Exactly. And having a seat at the table means that you have a voice and you should use that voice.
00:30:36
Speaker
And it's okay to be wrong. And it's okay to to learn. Like a lot of what I do right now is I have really robust conversations with my team that a lot of the time don't agree with an opinion. But it's actually nice to have quite a contrarian view as well. Don't speak because you think you have to be right. Speak because you have a view.
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. Now, you spoke about before when we spoke about leadership, but also thinking about your mantra and about caring. I want to understand, you know, the balance between connection and capability, like that the human and the, you know, I suppose the intelligence, the human intelligence and the product outcome.
00:31:15
Speaker
You know, thinking about your role, you went from digital marketing to to CEO in how many years? Not many. ah What do you think it was that made you stand out in that? Like, that's a big jump. Yeah. No, I mean, you know, in in saying that, the company was quite small at that at that stage when when those opportunities arose. And I'm not taking away anything from my abilities as well. But I think I cared enough to understand about lots of different parts of the business. And I think intellectual curiosity has a huge role to play because yeah i was interested to know why this worked or...
00:31:51
Speaker
you know, why we were having problems with production and things like that. And i think you can learn a lot about the capability side of, of again, of what of what you're talking about.
00:32:04
Speaker
And we talk a lot about people's potential and people's potential is not... based on their physicality of this is their technical knowledge.
00:32:14
Speaker
We talk a lot about potential, about are they future fit ready to have the resilience to learn and the the expansion to do so. So I do think, you know, if you're willing to learn, if you if you're willing to do hard things, if you're willing to sit down and read a contract and understand, you know, why it's important to look at specific things, then opportunity will come and the connection piece then comes together because if you genuinely want to learn something and you know I do this a lot from with our finance um head of finance as well GM of finance I ask I just ask a lot of questions and yeah for the most part she comes back to the curiosity of just always asking you know like and I will say I know this sounds really stupid but why this and this and you know you can kind of you
00:33:02
Speaker
to kind of figure things out. However, it's nice to have validation or for him to be able to say, well, actually we do this because of this or X because of this or our inventory line looks like this because of X. And people think that other people don't want to help them learn.
00:33:18
Speaker
And for the most part, when anybody asks, hey, can you tell me about this? And mostly the answer is, oh, sure, let me let let me share with you what I know. I mean, I think that comes, you must have a really strong sense of humility because some people feel too proud or lacking confidence or whatever. They don't want to ask the questions. And so I think it's a really great point around it's okay it's um to ask questions. And as you said, people actually genuinely don't.
00:33:46
Speaker
most in most instances want to share and I think it's also being able to say i know I'm not the subject matter expert in this but what I know is x but can you tell me this you know and again I find that as you said people have a pretense of I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm doing but it never comes across like that it usually comes across as you care enough to understand my part and that you're learning a little bit more about it. Yeah, it's actually respectful. for It is. yeah And the more you know about different facets of the business or about your team or about the different interconnected nature of how a project comes to life, the better you become at your job because you then don't get sort of stopped at different junctures because you did not think about X, you did not think about X. And I think it's future-proofing. Yeah, that sort of
00:34:35
Speaker
not my superpower, but I care enough about different aspects to learn about it so that when I'm talking about product development, for example, I can go, these are the areas that the supply chain team will have as, you know, stop gaps.
00:34:51
Speaker
So we need to figure this out beforehand. And this is what the marketing and the sales teams need. So this is what we need to think about as well. So it just gives you ah a bit more of a rounded view. And um I think it just helps just generally learning about different people's roles and departments.
00:35:08
Speaker
Was there a moment in your career sort of coming in just before your CEO role where you sort of had some sort of personal epiphany that, yes, I can lead this brand? Or do you think you so you were given the role and then you just made it happen?
00:35:25
Speaker
um It's a really great question. I think I never expected to get the role. i think it always came from the fact that I truly believed in rationale and what we were trying to do. So I really believed in Richard's vision.
00:35:38
Speaker
And I love the team that I worked for and worked with at that time. And, you know, he really... provided that opportunity for me to sort of lean in. And, you know, my first reaction, if I sort of think back, was like, oh, God, no, I can't do this role. It's not for me.
00:35:54
Speaker
it was actually my partner at that time, who's now my husband, who said, why not? You've kind of been doing bits of this. It just means that you sort of, again, have to own what you're doing a lot more.
00:36:05
Speaker
And, you know, you you have a really strong team and you have founders that believe in you And that helps when you have a bit of that internal dialogue that's not yeah super healthy. And now, i mean, again, hindsight is always a beautiful thing. But right now, I know i can do this. I know what I need lead this brand forward. I've...
00:36:25
Speaker
I've had the experience a little bit more now, but I i believe in myself and I believe in my abilities. But I'm also very consciously aware of what I'm particularly better at and where I need a really strong team.
00:36:37
Speaker
And I like to listen and I like to collaborate. That's part of I love the synergies of people working together. But that's what great leadership is, right? It's it's knowing where your strengths are yeah to inspire and motivate and set that North Star, but also getting the best of the people that you have, but also knowing where your deficits are. So yeah if you have a deficit in an area, then you know you need to find someone really awesome. Yeah. that that comes feel like can fill that gap. And I know, and I guess the true marker for me is that if I have to go away, whether it's, you know, um on leave or for whatever it is, or when I had the different bouts of maternity leave that I had, they didn't have to have a leader sort of stepping to to sort of cover that, you know,
00:37:23
Speaker
I was away for four months each time, but yeah the business continued to do really, really well. And I think that was probably biggest achievement in terms of I built a company that is so strong that in times when they don't have a very specific leader to sort of lead them, they can lead themselves. yeah And I think that's a mark of a really, really good leader that when you're not there, it continues to to thrive. That's a humble perspective because what it means is Also, there would be this sense that no one probably wants to let you down, that you've built that connection and everyone wants to do a great job as well. yeah
00:37:59
Speaker
Not because they're frightened of you, but because, you know, you've put in the effort. I want to go back to something that you said, because I think it's it's a really important lesson for women, especially because a lot of women, they listen to that voice and they choose not to take that next step because they don't have the confidence and maybe they don't have the infrastructure around them to sort of say, hey, you can do this, is the notion that, yes, that is a natural feeling to feel like maybe I can't do this, but doing it anyway.
00:38:32
Speaker
And then now knowing that even though you had those doubts, you now have the confidence to to back it up. so rather than just, you know, it would have been easier to just walk away and say, hey, this is just too big for me.
00:38:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, it's so funny because when you do something that's really hard or you think that you can't do it and when you do it, that feeling, that euphoric feeling, it is very, it's, you know, you can't deny that feeling as well. So I think sometimes when you have it in your mind that you can't do something or you've got all of this doubt sort of running through, the main thing I always come back to is what's the worst that can happen, right? If the worst thing that can happen... It's a sentiment that I used to... Yeah, and usually the worst sort of case scenario is actually not that bad, but when you've worked it out for yourself, you then feel a little bit more comfortable sort of owning or going in or doing whatever you're doing.
00:39:28
Speaker
And so I think that's the part that I use put personally for myself, and I can go, the worst thing that can happen is everybody thinks this is a really, really shitty idea. The worst thing prior to that is they can go, she's probably not very good at her job. Mm-hmm.
00:39:40
Speaker
The worst, worst thing could be i get fired. Let's see. yeah That's the worst case scenario. scenario That's not the worst case scenario in my case because I don't i think I've built enough to then go, i'm not going to get fired for that. They might go, hey, that was a silly idea.
00:39:55
Speaker
But that's the worst case scenario in mind. It's nothing that I'm doing that will completely, you know, obliterate what I've built as well. And I think I can also go by I've got enough currency that I've built to be able to take this next step and that people will allow for a little bit of success.
00:40:13
Speaker
failure, as we say, fast, fail forward. But I think it's it's always about then think of, but can you imagine if I do succeed? What does that mean as well? We forget to think about that connecting piece. The connecting piece. And that connecting piece, we recorded a podcast with the CEO of Fitter for Work, the organisation that helps women sort of prepare for going back to work. And we talked about the ripples of change in when a woman goes back to work who may have been, you know, leaving a family violence situation or they've just, um they've got broken confidences, all sorts of reasons.
00:40:50
Speaker
The intergenerational impact that that has is profound. is profound And so for, um to the point around, you know, that that's more what is the worst that can happen that allows someone to make a decision to step forward,
00:41:04
Speaker
the The truth of well what can be possible, as you said, yeah is a beautiful way to also think about that because it's in what can be possible is the positivity optimism, which can be far reaching beyond just the job. and And I think we always sort of try and manage our own internal expectations. And when you try and manage your own internal expectations, that can be you come up with a very real situation or quite a negative one, a glass sort of half empty. But, you know, in some cases, optimism is really important to have. And I find it really a lovely part to kind of go, if this works, wow, this would be incredible. So awesome.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I think about, so I think I've said this, I haven't said it in a long time, but with a small group of of work colleagues, probably five, 10 years ago, I said, oh, how nice would it be when we're all kind of old, we're sitting, you know, 80 years old and rationale sort of is on the, you know, on on a shelf or something. something yeah And you can go, oh, I'm I built that.
00:42:00
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's true also, you know, you mentioned before around people coming and going on their unique journey. But when you see people and you've had a positive influence on their career also, even if they've left to go to a competitor, there's that real sense of achievement when someone goes on. um And when you've had that positive relationship, they remember that and then they hopefully pay that forward yeah in their leadership skills. So it becomes this, yeah, cyclic...
00:42:28
Speaker
and And I don't know if it's my weird sort of sense of how I think, but, you know, I'm proud if somebody comes to me, a little bit proud, sad mostly and frustrated, but I'm a little bit proud that somebody's reached out to poach somebody in our business because I've gone, we've clearly been doing things very well. You're the one to watch.
00:42:49
Speaker
yeah in In terms of building really good people and really good people experiences that you know and and we have had it where there's um you know the same companies that are coaching and at one stage I actually called and said hey what's going on man I've had to do that yeah um but you can't help but feel you know proud that they see the value of what you're building and you're really good compliment but stop taking my stuff yeah I think my really good stuff like You know, yeah do your own work. There was a lot of that during the pandemic where people were just offering exponentially unachievable salaries for people, which then yeah didn't. and you And, you know, in those cases, you also then need to learn when you kind of stop and go, I've got to let you go with love.
00:43:35
Speaker
Yes. And this is, yeah you know, this is not for us to to play that game. to play that Because it's a never-ending game exactly exactly upmanship. Yeah. What resources or tools helped you make those decisions? Like if you were going to pass on some of those things, is there anything that helped you get that confidence?
00:43:56
Speaker
I think, you know, it if not not very particularly I can say, oh, I've done this or whatever. I think I i read quite a lot as well. And, you know, i i meet with people and other i have a lot of very, very highly esteemed women in my life that I meet with and i share sort of problems.
00:44:15
Speaker
And they always listen and give their shared experiences to me. And I find that really powerful and really helpful to also know that you're not alone. And these are sort of problems that exist. But through that, always there's a conversation I have when I'm talking about somebody, something or somebody or something I want to achieve. And somebody will go, have you read this book? i yeah And I found that so much of what I bring back into the business is usually because I've read a book and I've gotten really excited about about something or something. And sometimes it's got nothing to do. It's not a work book per se. It could be a bit more cultural in in terms of work.
00:44:49
Speaker
there are bits of this book that are really interesting but I do think that's probably where I get a lot of my inspiration from more from a management of culture or experience perspective that i want to bring back into the business and then also sort of slowly finding a group yeah and for me women particularly that I really get along with that I really respect and understanding their you know their I guess perspectives and their experiences has really helped me as well I've validate or put my and feelings or in perspective as well.
00:45:20
Speaker
um So those are probably the two. But there' there's a lot of really great books that I feel are really relevant that I've brought into the business. And I always do a book club for some reason, like a yeah little tiny book club. we Love a book club. We read a chapter a week and it's easy to do in like 10 minutes at the start of a week.
00:45:35
Speaker
So it's, you know, it's not it's not hard. Yeah, it's um is that a work book club? Kind of. It's kind of a workbook club, but it's not.
00:45:45
Speaker
i try and make it really easy so people don't feel like, oh, God, I've got to do the whole book by a month. It's like every week we meet. We just do one chapter and we discuss that one chapter and it literally will take seven minutes.
00:45:57
Speaker
So we just finished Prime to Perform, which um was a really great book because I was trying to re- I guess in in I was trying to reframe how people in culture, the team, people in culture from more, you know, they're really, really part of income generating yeah as well.
00:46:16
Speaker
And this book was really great in being able to give a bit of a framework of how do you how do you come up with what that is as well. And it was suggested to me by somebody I had i sitting next to for dinner.
00:46:29
Speaker
as well and it was really great and um I used as part of my I guess town hall to the whole company and then I did see that ah two of my team who were reading it with me had actually taken it and made it into a module and had shared it recently as part of a departmental sort of L&D thing which was great so that was really good All right. Well, we'll definitely put the link in the show note there. While we're on the topic, I want to understand, is there something that you wished, if you could go back to 16-year-old Sharm, what would you want to tell her?
00:47:07
Speaker
Or is there something that you have read or listened to or watched that you just wish your younger daughter So the one thing I would tell 16 year old Sharm is, gosh, time is going to be a most valuable asset. So don't wish it away and don't waste it, I think.
00:47:25
Speaker
I think that's with every person, really, as you come into adulthood and you yeah find that time is the the most luxurious thing that you can have. In terms of something to read or anything, i came across fairly recently this theory called The Let Them Theory by Mel Gibson.
00:47:44
Speaker
And it was actually really quite empowering in terms of... And I think particularly for women, it's let them, it's like, it's this whole theory of like, let them think what they want to think, let them do what they want to do Don't try and control everything.
00:47:56
Speaker
It feels like it's really empowering and in the sense of don't worry, don't don't hold on to opinions of others. And I think if I'm thinking back to my 16-year-old self and the journey that I've had, I've had opinions of people really define maybe who I am or what I can do or what I can't do.
00:48:13
Speaker
And it's be able to sort of go, let them have that opinion about me. It's okay. I think that's really cathartic and free. Yeah. So that's probably one I would. I think she has a book and a podcast. Well, hasn't her podcast just, isn't her isn't it her podcast that's just probably gone gangbusters? Oh, has it?
00:48:32
Speaker
Yeah. I had somebody tell me about this as well. And so I listened to a small podcast that she did on it. And it's just like sent it to every person. Yeah. You know, yeah, well, I'm not 16 anymore, but I'm definitely going to get on to the let them let them theory.
00:48:50
Speaker
I want to ask, so biting big being the sentiment of this, is there a moment or ah decision or a period where you did bite big and chew like hell?
00:49:02
Speaker
And was that a positive or a negative experience? Yeah, I think so. I think, a ah you know, in terms of when we came off the pandemic, we had ah new partner that we had just navigated through. And we also had to go international. And I think and we were building Clinton as well. God, talk about Biden. Wow, that is um yeah three big chunks.
00:49:25
Speaker
That was big. And we yeah, I think it was, that's probably the point in time that I can think about that we did everything and we just bit off more than we could chew. And, you know, because we had committed to doing it, we just had to chew like hell. Yeah.
00:49:40
Speaker
And what did you learn about yourself during that period? I learned that. through adversity, I really know how to come out of it and be stronger for it. I knew that I had enough resilience to sort of not go, this is all too much. I'm just going to put this down. Yeah.
00:49:59
Speaker
And stay focused because you talked about the focus. Yeah, exactly. The focus is really important. The third part was I realized that love working in a team. I love working with people.
00:50:10
Speaker
that have that same sentiment. And the only reason why we were able to do all three is that I had an incredible team that I was working with that were with me through the highs of the highs and the lows of the lows and through trying to build in regional Victoria during the pandemic to problems with everything shut down. Are we going to be able to build this huge team?
00:50:31
Speaker
facility that, you know, we promised build. Are we going to be able to launch internationally when we can't fly anywhere? You know, thinking about all of those very tiny little bits, it came down to the team and the people that you're on that journey with is really, really important. So who I'm going through work with is actually really a big part of why I like doing what I'm doing and it's not as easy as oh the pea is really good or the rem is really good or you know this brand is really prestigious it's it really comes down to the people the people right now yeah yeah always has been I should say well I think yeah the key take out there if you're gonna bite big and chew like hell make sure you've got lots of great people around you that will go through that journey with you scaffold the chewing and you know
00:51:19
Speaker
be that listening year for you. I really love that. Well, that is nearly a wrap um for today. um Thank you, Sharm, gracing us with your humility. And you know I think there's some really awesome insights in there for women.
00:51:35
Speaker
Very generous of you. Just to recap on your mantra, nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care. And I think everything that you've spoken about talks about how that has influenced your your time at rationale and no doubt you know will into the future and some of the key takeouts for me was but well just the idea that that is your north star and the sentiment of that being something that you've brought through your childhood from your father and how that's going to carry through and no doubt that will carry through with your own children as well I think that's a really beautiful sentiment so thank you for sharing that
00:52:11
Speaker
I liked how you said you wish you'd owned your voice earlier. um And I think that connects really beautifully to the Mel Gibson let them um let them theory because this sense of kind of owning your voice that feels like that top and tail. yeah And i I think the other core takeout for me was this idea of what is the worst that can happen? So when you're in that moment of, you know, whether it's a period or whether it's a moment of like, oh, fuck,
00:52:39
Speaker
can can this Can I do this? The idea of looking at the worst, but then also what are the gifts that can come of that and using that as a framework to sort of for the confidence to move forward, I think is he's really awesome. So thank you for sharing that.
00:52:55
Speaker
Thank you. That was a nice little recap. Nice recap. I did tell you I took notes. I know. I'm so impressed. Now, speaking of being grateful, so this podcast was produced and made by women for women.
00:53:09
Speaker
So to show our gratitude, we donate $500 on your behalf to a chosen charity. And you've chosen Fight Parkinson's. So that's formerly Parkinson's Victoria, but it's a leading organisation focused on Parkinson's disease, providing research, education and support for over 40 years, really looking to improve the quality of people's life. And I imagine...
00:53:33
Speaker
families across lots of different age groups. Could you just tell us a little bit about the significance of that for you? Yeah, I think in my life, I've known a lot of people obviously who've had Parkinson's and this it's a neurodegenerative disease. My father has it as well. So it's very close to why I think it's so important and from a care perspective and from a science perspective that there's so much more work that can be done. it's It's really around their quality of life that degenerates quite quickly and So many families don't have the ability to be able to care for them because it becomes quite difficult to do so. So that's why I've chosen this.
00:54:09
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you for that. Thank you for the donation to them. You're welcome. Well, thank you, Sharm, again. Thanks, Amber. And thanks, everyone. I've been your host, Amber Bonney. And until next episode, I hope you bite big and chew like hell.