Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Amber Bites Big with Michelle Redfern - founder Advancing Women in Sport
133 Plays8 months ago
For the first episode of Season 2, Amber Bonney Bites Big with guest co-host Michelle Redfern - the unofficially anointed "voice for change" advocate and CEO of Advancing Women in Sport, Podcaster, Ambassador and AFR Top 100 Most Influential Women. Quite the list!
Inspired by Amber's own Mantra, "bite big and chew like hell", in this episode we talk about Michelle's mantra 'Get Shit Done' and how this has influenced her approach to business. We find out why Michelle has been so aptly described as a 'Powerful voice for Change' and one of Amber's Top 20 most inspiring Australian women. In Amber's words "Michelle Redfern is an action-led human. No mincing of words, bravery in spades, an exception strategic leader and one of the most passionate advocates for women in business and sports I know".
Michelle discusses growing up in a patriarchal society where women are taught not to play big, not to be big and not to get shit done, and how this has actually helped fuel Michelle to be the fiery character she is today!
Being the self driven woman she is and not wanting to have any regrets, Michelle gets candid about her journey of self discovery and reflection, and how important it is to tune into your body and mind, and the importance of having a 'squad' that allows you to 'think out load' and discuss the issues, big or small, in your life.
Bite Big has donated $500 to the chosen charity Our Watch an a national leader in the primary prevention of violence against women and their children in Australia.
If you would like to know more about our host Amber Bonney her business The Edison Agency or co-host Michelle Redfern you can connect and follow these boss women via their socials links below!
Links:
Michelle's LinkedIn
Michelle's Website
Michelle's Instagram
Michelle's New Book
The Edison Agency's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's Instagram
Amber's Instagram
Amber's LinkedIn
Our Watch
Media/Book References
"No Ceiling, No Walls' by Susan L Colantuono
Credits
Main Host: Amber Bonney
Producer: Niki Beeston
Post Production : 17th Street Audio
Recommended
Transcript
Acknowledging the Boomerang country
00:00:00
Speaker
This podcast is recorded on the lands of the Boomerung country and we wish to acknowledge them as traditional owners. We recognise First Peoples of Australia as the original storytellers of this country and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
Introduction to Season 2 of Fight Big
00:00:24
Speaker
Good morning, hello, and welcome to season two, episode one of Fight Big, a podcast about boss women leading big brands. I'm your host, Amber Bonney, and we are back for an action packed season two.
Guest Introduction: Michelle Redford
00:00:36
Speaker
To kick off things in season two, I'm thrilled to be speaking with a passionate feminist and inclusionist, Michelle Redford. Hello, good morning, Michelle.
00:00:45
Speaker
G'day, how are you? I am well. I like being number one, so thanks for making me number one of season two. Well, look, I'm pretty chuffed to have you here, so I think it's kudos to me to get you in here. Now, I'm going to list off a whole host of your accomplishments, so sit back while I do that. You are the founder of Advancing Women in Business and Sport. This focuses on closing the leadership gap within organisations, as well as the host of Advancing Women in Sport podcast.
00:01:13
Speaker
On the side, you're also the co-founder of the Leatsaw Network podcast and summits. I've been listening to a lot of those podcasts over summer. And that's a community that provides content resources to help women obtain and succeed in leadership roles. And there's really great content and I have started to share that out in my network.
00:01:30
Speaker
You also consult with huge organisations on the importance of diversity and inclusion strategy, development and implementation. But before all of this, you held really high level executive leadership roles for Australian blue chip companies such as Telstra, NAB and have led large scale operations and built high performing teams. I'm still going, by the way. You've been listed as one of Australia's top 100 women of influence and were a long term judge for the Telstra Australian Women's Business Awards.
00:02:00
Speaker
That's the end. I mean, that was, that's a pretty impressive lineup. So kudos to me for having you here and getting to know you over the past couple of years. And yeah, I'm thrilled. Oh yeah. And look, I'm thrilled to be here too. And I agree kudos to you not for getting me here because I would have, you know, I'll show up to the opening of an envelope when it's about boss women, but you know, you have got a really strong mandate, Amber. And, you know, I'm, I'm just, I love the work that you're doing as well around boss women. And, you know, that just.
00:02:27
Speaker
totally resonates with me and you and I have clicked, you know, like mines, birds of a feather, all of that kind of stuff. And it's really interesting, we were saying when we caught up before Christmas that, you know, we have a couple of clients in common and, you know, the world's a small place. So, but I think
00:02:43
Speaker
For me, you're a really great connector and networker, which as you will know from listening to and reading about my stuff, I'm pretty strong on networking is working and networks make you successful because we do business with people, through and with people.
Personal Mantras: Bite Big and Get Shit Done
00:03:00
Speaker
That is really true. Well, today we are here to talk about personal mantras. So this podcast, as you know, is built around my personal mantra, bite big and chew like hell. That's gotten me trouble in some instances, but it's also allowed me to propel forward and that's really exciting. And so the premise of today is to really get under the skin of your mantra and unpack that a little bit.
00:03:25
Speaker
And yours is really simple. Three words on a post-it note. Get shit done. So, let's talk about that. What does this mean for you and how does this, how does this come about? Well, it came about, I mean, if you ask my mother, she would never say get shit done, but she would say I was like a bull at a gate from birth, you know, always rushing here, there and everywhere, determined to do stuff.
00:03:48
Speaker
And, you know, fast forward a few decades. And I hadn't really realized it was my mantra until it was my last team that I had in corporate Australia when I was at the NAB. And I've quite often said this was kind of my dream team. They were an amazing group of people. Anyway, I had resigned and were having my farewell lunch with the team. And they had assembled a whole bunch of gifts for me.
00:04:16
Speaker
all labeled get shit done and there's a whole bunch of merch and a whole business shout out to Adam again who has this business called get shit done and I had never known that
Authenticity and Personal Branding
00:04:29
Speaker
this was kind of a thing or that there was merch and I just said what's all this about they said Michelle you're the you know you can't come on people let's get shit done let's get shit done let's get shit done and and I hadn't realized that it was part of my mattress I went hey I'm going into business for myself that's probably not a bad thing to
00:04:46
Speaker
guide me and others. And the more I thought about it, the more I considered it, and the more I did with it, the more it just became part of, and it is, it's my approach. You know what's interesting about that is there's so much emphasis now in industry about build your personal brand. Someone just gifted you half of your value proposition. 100%. As you exited the last job, how incredible. And it's interesting though, because the other thing around personal brand, which I get a bit bent out of shape about, because people go, oh my God, personal brand, I'm going to hang on a minute.
00:05:16
Speaker
You can't bullshit people. It's got to be real. I don't particularly love the word authentic because it's so overused, but it's got to be real. It's got to be genuine. Australians in particular are pretty good at spotting bullshitters. So we do have to have something that's truly us that our brand rests on and that people know us for and depend on us for. And I look and I think people depend on me to make stuff happen, to get shit done. And I've always been like it.
00:05:45
Speaker
will continue to be like it. There's part of my personality and my inherent traits that enable that. I have a pretty high appetite for risk. I guess one of the enablers or the mindsets that enables that is, well, I don't want to have any regrets. No regrets. I used to say when I was 70.
00:06:06
Speaker
I now fast forward that to 90. But basically, when I'm old and decrepit, I can't do anything. I never want to say, oh, I wish I'd done that or I wish I'd taken that opportunity. I want to go, all right, well, that was interesting. And that went well. Or, oh, that was interesting. That went pear-shaped. And I won't do that again. But at least I know. And so that's a
00:06:25
Speaker
That's an enabler of that mantra, get shit done. That's amazing. So you mentioned before that's not how your mother would describe it. A lot of times in business, so we've got obviously innate characteristics that drive who we are and much like you, my mantra I think is just something that I feel like I've always had. And the more I grew and the more that I was told
00:06:49
Speaker
I don't think you can do that or you're not the right person for that, which happened often during university, for example. The more it sort of fueled my kind of chew like hell and yes, I can do it mentality. Would you say that this is something that you have honed over time, your capacity and confidence to get shit done? Is that something that you have grown and developed or did you just literally come out day one in hospital with this propensity, do you think, to get shit done?
Ambitions and Societal Pressures
00:07:19
Speaker
Do you know what? I reckon that I probably did come out like that and that was an inherent trait. But I've got to say that society really dialed it down. You know, I got clipped a number of times through my childhood, early adult and certainly through my career to say, excuse me, back in your box girl. And, you know, so I think society teaches and particularly teaches girls and women not to play big and not to be big and not to get shit done.
00:07:49
Speaker
It teaches us, and look, you know, I'm in my 50s, so I was in an era. Baby boomer parents who were very cool, but they were still a little bit of the, you know, children should be seen and not heard kind of thing. So within society, not so much with mum and dad, but I think the broader society. So I would say, yes, I had it. Then it was dialed down and I learned how to assimilate, survive and, you know, really assimilate and survive in a patriarchal environment.
00:08:19
Speaker
And then I moved into my stages of, excuse me, just don't tell me what to do. Don't tell me to play small. And I got into the I'm fed up stage. So that's when it really paid off. That's from a personality side, Amber, but from a business side, I also learned from some amazing people, but also have invested in my own development a lot in the last 30 years.
00:08:48
Speaker
And I learned how to do business. I learned how to be a good business person. And those skills gave me confidence to get the right shit done. So I think there's get any shit done, but then there's get the right shit done. So I think there's a combination of finally being fed up and going, fuck this shit. You know, I've had enough of this crap and it's, and I remember saying to someone, Jesus Christ, it's 2016. This shit should have been fixed by now.
00:09:17
Speaker
So, you know, there was that side of it and then the other side of it, hey, I know what I'm talking about here and I'm going to get this project delivered or I'm going to go and get this funding or I'm going to go and talk to this stakeholder. I'm going to get this shit done because I know what I'm doing. So back the hell off and leave me alone.
00:09:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you talked about the patriarchy and we still have this problem in business today. Can you remember pivotal times where that mantra really landed you in hot water within that structure professionally?
Learning from Missteps
00:09:49
Speaker
There might be lots, but what are the ones that stand out?
00:09:53
Speaker
Look, there's a, there's a couple that stand out and it's, it's a combination of my, you know, leap before you look or, you know, shoot, ready, aim, get shit done. That means I've got a high propensity. I've got a high, you know, I've got a bias towards action. So sometimes that can be mean that I can hurtle into action mode without due consideration about maybe considerations, risks and things like that.
00:10:19
Speaker
one particular situation, and it wasn't that long ago, really. That, combined with my very high trust levels in humans, meant that I entered into a business partnership with a high level of trust and a high level of, okay, let's get shit done. And it didn't serve me well because the other party wasn't operating at an ethical level.
00:10:43
Speaker
And we didn't share the same goals and we particularly didn't share the same values. You know, and it was a pretty significant venture for me. And I remember being incredibly disappointed when I figured out, oh crumbs, that was a mistake. And I remember saying to a friend of mine, oh, I'm just sick of this. I should stop trusting people. You know, I'm just too trustworthy. And she said to me, you know what, Michelle?
00:11:08
Speaker
don't do that because that's who you are and don't stop adventuring and venturing because that's who you are, but learn to manage the disappointment because there are unethical people, there are disappointing people. So there's kind of a, yes, it's got me into trouble, but you know what, that's also part of learning. You go, all right then, what did I learn? Right, so when I'm going into strategic partnerships with people, I need to do
00:11:36
Speaker
due diligence, not just rely on my gut instinct because whilst it's often pretty good, every now and then it lets me down. Yes, I've been in situations like that too. How do you keep that in check? So you mentioned just then there's that reflection point, there's the due diligence. Are there any other ways that you would kind of check in with yourself to make sure that you're being true
Reflection and Personal Growth
00:12:00
Speaker
to that?
00:12:00
Speaker
I'm a very big fan of stop, breathe, reflect, which is what I talk to lots of people about, including my clients, about we've actually got to sit in our shit for a little while. We were saying just before we came on to record that over the Christmas break every year, I have a reflective process that I follow. I've been doing it for eight years.
00:12:23
Speaker
It allows me to go, okay, let me reflect on the year that was. Where am I? How did I get here? What's still serving me? What no longer serves me? And what am I going to do about it next year? It really is as simple as that. And then I start to go, okay, the next thing is, so who do I want to be?
00:12:42
Speaker
in the world next year. And I'm a crap goal setter. I'm not good at goals. I guess I think bigger than goals. I think quite lofty, kind of, yeah, who do I want to be in the world? Yeah, those, you know, and that guides me. So I'll come up with guiding words and things like that.
00:12:57
Speaker
but that reflective process is really important and I don't just do it once a year. You know, I'm very good at tuning out for even three minutes to do deep breathing and going, why am I feeling like I'm feeling? And I've learned to tune into my body as well, Amber. If I'm feeling anxious, okay, what's really fueling that? Don't know, don't know, stop, breathe, think, okay, what's really going on? What's really going on? What's really, aha, this is what's really going on.
00:13:26
Speaker
Now I need to tune into that and go, okay, can I do something about it? Is it within my control? Yes, okay, deal with it. If it's not, okay, I need to go to my squad. And my squad of people are typically my wife. Certainly my sisters are awesome. And I've got a group of really cool women who I just go, I'm feeling a bit out of sorts, or I've got this kind of idea or thing that's happening. I need to think out loud with someone.
00:13:53
Speaker
I've got better at saying I need to think out loud, which is code for I need help. I'm not great at asking for help. I've got better at it, not perfect, and we don't aim for perfection, we aim for progression. So I've got a bit better at that. Yeah. Yeah. And when do you think that turning point was? Because that really resonates with me, the
00:14:12
Speaker
when you are someone that's quite action and sort of future focused and you're ambitious, it can be quite hard to A, stop and reflect. So I think that's a really great skill to as you progress through your career, but also asking for help. And certainly my personal attachment to that is it's not necessarily I'm too proud to ask for help. Sometimes I'm actually just
00:14:38
Speaker
I'm moving forward so much, I actually forget to stop and say, oh, you know, why might this be working? Or let me tap into this, this, or this. When do you think those skills started to show up for you in your professional career? They really started to show up when I turned 40.
Turning 40: A Personal Milestone
00:14:56
Speaker
Right. I tend to have these things that happen on my big milestone birthday, so God.
00:15:00
Speaker
God knows what's going to happen at 60. My poor parents, they keep waiting. God, what would you do next? But when I was 40, I had a real breakdown. But in terms of breakdown, I had a breakdown and a breakthrough. So the backstory was I separated from my kid's father two or three years before that, come out as gay.
00:15:19
Speaker
left Telstra after 15 years and turned 40. Hmm. Okay. That was certainly getting shit done. I mean, you really live here. So, you know, a few, few life moments there. And I had a life quake and my body actually said, excuse me, you're going to stop and think about what the fuck is going on. We're done here. Yeah. I got really sick and I spent a couple of weeks in bed.
00:15:44
Speaker
I remember my wife Rhonda coming home one day. She said, what do you know? I said, I want my mum. And it was a sad day morning. So she flew mum over that day from Perth because I was like, I want my mum. And I probably had one of the first panic attacks that I really can remember having, like a serious panic attack. I thought, I'm dying. I'm having a heart attack, something like that. Bottom line was I had had so much going on in my life and I'd been hurtling forward for so long.
00:16:11
Speaker
that my body and my brain conspired to say, righto, you gotta sit in your shit for a while. So I had to. And part of it was I'd stopped sleeping. I was still, you know, I was drinking too much, blah, blah, blah. And I remember going to the doctor, the GP and saying, I need some sleeping tablets, you know? And she said, all right, but before I do that, you need to write down five things that make you happy. And I said, what? Just give me the damn tablets. And she said, no.
00:16:40
Speaker
And Rhonda was there and I'm looking at Rhonda and she's, of course, she's the wisest person in the world. She's going. And she said, go away, come back in a week with your five things written down and then we'll talk about sleeping tablets.
00:16:53
Speaker
So I went away furious and started to write down five things. And of course I couldn't write down five things. I could barely even write down one genuine thing that made me happy because I didn't know. I was just so driven and what have you that I wasn't paying attention. So of course I slunk back in a week with my tail between my legs. I don't know what makes me happy. She said, right. Do you think that might be the reason why you might not be sleeping? I don't know.
00:17:19
Speaker
So off I went to counseling. She said, I've got a psychologist for you that you need to see. And I thought, all right, well, I'll go knock this out in two or three sessions and everything will be great. Awesome. Eighteen months later.
00:17:31
Speaker
Because I remember sitting down and it's funny because the first time I ever watched Brene Brown's vulnerability video, I went, oh God, Ted Talk, this is me. Because I sat down and said, right, don't want to talk about my childhood because it was happy. There's nothing going on there. I said, I've had a great life. There's just no shit to see here, nothing to see here. So let's work out what the hell is going on. She went, okay. She said, just talk to, and Chris, her name was, I don't remember, she must have gone, oh, got a live one here.
00:17:55
Speaker
Another one of these. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Complete denial, absolutely not tuned in, blah, blah, blah. So bottom line was it started a process that I ended up really enjoying, which was talking and thinking about myself and really thinking about
00:18:12
Speaker
the stuff that I, while we go, oh, filling that, pop that into that cupboard in the corner of my mind and we'll deal with that at some point until the cupboard becomes so full. So the big beast jumped out of the cupboard and felled me. So that's when it started, Amber. I mean, I was a pretty good learner. I loved, but I wanted to learn about business, about leadership, about how to get to the top. So I was that nerdy, annoying person that worked, is there a training? If there's a training course, yes, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go to the conference, I'll go to, yes, I'll put my hand up for everything.
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah. But then I needed to overachieve for myself. So then I really started investing in myself and saying, how do I be the best version of myself that I can be? Because I'm not being the best version of myself. And when I'm great, everyone around me is great. And like a lot of people, I'd put all of my eggs into my career basket. And it only takes your career to have one little wobble, which it had wobbled.
00:19:08
Speaker
Because I'd gone from an organization that I'd grown up in, where I was well-networked, well-known, blah, blah, to one where I, yes, I was known and respected, but I was no longer the expert. I was no longer the, hey, we'll go to Michelle because she knows everything. And it was very discombobulating. So that's when it started.
00:19:29
Speaker
and it hasn't stopped. Wow, what an incredible journey though. Oh, it's been amazing. And people go, oh, it is incredible. Yeah, but it's actually really simple when it comes down to it. This is what it means when they say put your own oxygen mask on first. Because I'm also a bit down on this bullshit advice that's always given to women. You've got to do this and you've got to do that. OK, well, just show me how. Convince me why and then show me how. What is putting your own oxygen mask on first really mean?
00:19:58
Speaker
Well, it does mean that sometimes I've got to say no to stuff because I've got to look after myself. And I'm very good at saying no. I've got a... Well, you've seen it, Amber. I've got an I don't list. I don't do things. And I'm very good now at saying, I'm sorry, I can't do that. So am I perfect at it? No. I've been getting better at that, but it really has been.
00:20:24
Speaker
This year actually is the year because I want to do some extra study. I do need to physically say no to things, but I find that really difficult. I am getting much better at it, but I've still got some place to go. So you're my inspiration. Well, here's a tip that I got at the start of doing my MBA. I remember one of the very first lectures that I was there, one of the professors just said, okay, folks, you're all here. You're all Bright Heart and Bushy Tail.
00:20:53
Speaker
and you're going to do your MBA. Don't really care why you're here and what have you, but here's the reality. Number one, this is not your MBA. I'm thinking, well, who's this at then? Because this is your family's MBA. Because your family, the people that you hang out with in life, they have to enable you. So number one, remember that. Number two, something has to stop. If you're trying to fit this in amongst everything else,
00:21:17
Speaker
you will not be successful and you will not have a great experience. And I went, he's so right. So I stepped down as secretary of our Netball Association, cause I went, that's the thing that's taking, you know, four to eight hours a week at the moment. So, and he was so right. And the mental, the thing with those sorts of situations when you're volunteering or you're on a board or it's actually the mental load that comes without the, I need to check the emails, I need to coordinate, I need to connect these two people together.
00:21:46
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. So it's great advice for, you know, if you're going to take on whether it's starting a new business, scaling a business, starting some study, if there's a big thing, just get really real about the amount of time it's going to take and what needs to stop to enable you to do it. I know Helia Svensson, who's just an amazing woman. She has the Take On Board podcast and community. A couple of years ago, she said, you know, I had this revelation that
00:22:16
Speaker
board papers, I have to book it into my diary. I said, absolutely. You just can't say I'm going to read my board papers in and it's a task. So for me, my calendar absolutely runs my life. If it's not in the calendar, it does not happen. A walk's in my calendar. That is 100%. Yeah. True. And it's a really good way of time management. And also seeing when you want to reflect, how much time did I spend on that board last year?
00:22:41
Speaker
Okay, I can go and see. So we've got a plan. In the Google Calendar system at the end of last year, just talking about reflection, I put a screenshot. It tells you how many hours you invested in meetings. And if you use Gmail, it breaks it up into meetings with other people versus scheduled events. And it was something like 380 hours or something that I had spent in meetings with other people. And you're like, wow.
00:23:08
Speaker
That is an exceptionally long amount of time. I get very energised about meetings as well, but it's
Challenges of Hybrid Meetings
00:23:16
Speaker
interesting. I spoke to someone yesterday, a former colleague of mine who's job hunting. She said, you know, Michelle, for the last two years, I've been head of meetings. She said, nine hours a day on Zoom calls. I went,
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah. That's mad, right? That's a lot. Yeah. And video calls are exceptionally drained. Well, we've fallen in love with them now. And it's interesting when I say to clients now or people who want to talk to me, I go, do you want a phone call or do you want to Zoom? Invariably, it'll be a Zoom or equivalent. But it is nice to do a phone call every now and then because it is. There's a cognitive load associated with the video stuff.
00:23:58
Speaker
There is, and I was reflecting with a colleague yesterday that I turned up to a workshop yesterday, a couple of hours, 10 people in the session.
00:24:06
Speaker
They surprised me with, oh, there's three people dialing in. Now, you know, this was the workshop session was designed to run on Miro, you know, your heads in the game of these are going to be an in-person session. We had, you know, post, you know, still some, the old post-it notes and pens, and then to have to focus my attention in two places. I couldn't see their names because their names were included in the
00:24:30
Speaker
in the meeting room that they were in. And then I had the actual people in the space to try and facilitate and I'm like, this is where it really doesn't work.
00:24:39
Speaker
I agree. And I think I'm not a fan of hybrid. I know that it's another way of including people who may not be able to be included, but I feel like someone always misses out. And I've got an executive in one of my client organizations a while back. It was post COVID, but he just said it's either all or nothing. If someone has to be on a video call, we're all on a video call or we're all in the room because the people on the call
00:25:06
Speaker
are going to miss out on, and everyone does the little sidebar conversations, which then come to the main conversation. It's impossible on a video or a teleconference to be a part of that. I know it's not always practical, but yeah, I'm not a fan of the hybrid stuff.
00:25:22
Speaker
All right, let's move on. You have spent a significant volume of time in the amplification and advocacy for women, and you have been described as a powerful voice for change. Now, personally, I'm not sure why you don't have that on a T-shirt, because if someone described that for me, I would be walking around that.
00:25:44
Speaker
I was listening to a podcast of yours from the lead to SOAR and you were talking about networking recently and this resonated with me because the word networking I find I sort of get repelled by that word and I think it just has so much
00:25:59
Speaker
baggage associated to it. But you described yourself as a connector and then went on with this wonderful metaphor of talking about yourself as a Lego piece that connects these groups together. And I thought, firstly, I just merch again came to mind. I'm like, what a great piece of merch or some sort of collab you can do. But the idea that reframing networking for women, because it is not
00:26:24
Speaker
a sport that women feel like they can do well. Reframing that as having a series of connectors when you talk about it as having broad, connective and dynamic networks. I'm really interested to hear about, I know you talk a lot about this, but how did this come about for you and where did your journey start in your really starting to step up for advocacy for women?
00:26:49
Speaker
So networking number one, it started because I too had all of the hangups about networking, but I had a real come to Jesus moment when I had catapulted myself out of Telstra. I then became an executive in a business process outsourcing firm and I was responsible for growth. So I needed to grow the organization. Hello. You've got to be able to network not just with new, but also organically within existing clients.
00:27:15
Speaker
And I realized that no one knew me, no one trusted me and certainly no one respected me. And for me, that's the trilogy, the golden trilogy around business.
00:27:26
Speaker
People do business with other people they know, respect and trust. And I just went shivers. And I had thought of networking as a slimy salespeople exchanging business cards, then hitting you up for months with bloody cold calls and spam. Well, of course, that's one microcosm of bad networking. But networking for me is any time you're in a room with another person.
00:27:53
Speaker
whether it's in personal or real time, sorry, virtual. And it means that you have to look for win-win, blah, blah, blah, blah. Bottom line was I had the moment of I'm responsible for growing this organization, so I need to actually start building these skills. And it's a skill set. And like any other skill set, it can be learned and then you practice it and then you master it or keep getting better at it.
00:28:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think what happens for a lot of women, their experiences, they go to an event that their work, you know, says you must do this. It's either fun, but not fruitful. And I've had many of those experiences. We go, you have a great time in a chat, but there's
00:28:35
Speaker
nothing happens, you know, there's the odd email or they turn up and feel like it's not an inclusive space for them. That's the one, Amber. So this is the other element to it because often, you know, we're looking at the let's fix the women because it must be their fault. No, it ain't. So what we've tried to do is shoehorn women into
00:28:59
Speaker
a patriarchal space that has not been built or designed thoughtfully for them. So this became apparent to me, really apparent. My sister-in-law Glenda and I were at a particular business breakfast for women. And she and I are both great networkers, both good at business development, that kind of stuff. And so, you know, we're going, okay, who do we meet? And she's going, no one wants to talk to us. And it was predominantly a younger than us crowd.
00:29:29
Speaker
business women and she just said, geez, Michelle, what's going on here? I said, I don't think they know how, Glenda. And I would go up to a group of women and they'd look at me like they were deer in the headlights. I'm like, holy crap, who's this woman? And I said, you know what, Glenda? I said, I don't think they understand, number one, that their organization probably has paid a lot of money. They've paid 200 bucks for them to sit here at this breakfast. And the organization will expect some outcomes from that. Number two,
00:29:56
Speaker
They don't have the skill. So they don't have the knowledge and that political savviness necessarily. Now, these are broad sweeping statements. Number two, they have not been told or taught the skills of networking and why it's so important for their career. And number three, this is not a safe space and there's nothing enabling good, genuine networking. She went, right, right.
00:30:20
Speaker
What will we do about that? And I said, I'm going to do something about it. I'm going to start holding events. And I'm going to teach women how to network. So in one of my former ventures, women who get it, I started doing events here in Melbourne. And I would have literally, I'd have a cap of 100 women. There would be no more than 100. I didn't want a warehouse for the women. And I would have a speaker or a panel, but I would facilitate networking. And I would say, right, this is what we're going to do now.
00:30:47
Speaker
Yes, it's going to feel awkward for some of you, but here are some tools to help you network and here's the importance of it. And what kind of feedback did you get from that? After the first couple of events, I sold out every single one because this is so good. We got to go. You got to go. And they were fun, but it was safe. You got taught how to do it. You were given the space to be, you know, if you made a bit of a bloop or whatever, fine, whatever. But you were given the opportunity to participate, then sit back and gather your thoughts.
00:31:15
Speaker
then participate, then sit back. Number one, emphasizing the importance. Number two, teaching the skills, then providing a safe space to practice. Super important. And that's my lead to sore network. Now, that's why I do, what I do, the way I do it for women is to say, come and practice in a safe space. Because we know that when you turn up to Crown Palladium, and I've had this experience, even as an experienced, confident businesswoman, you go up that escalator and you suddenly see,
00:31:43
Speaker
a sea of blue and black suits and men and posses of men around Ithco. Okay. Time to whack the big girl pants on. Here I go. I'm going to insert myself into some conversations here. That's not safe. No. And often in those events I find it's, it's often people just use it as a catch up to people they already know. Absolutely. And I'm okay with that. But if we want to really say this is an important business skill,
00:32:10
Speaker
It's an important business skill for a currently underrepresented group, women, and let's not look over the fact that you and I are both white women. What if I'm a woman of color? What if I'm a disabled woman? What if I'm a First Nations woman? You'd start layering those barriers on top, and it becomes a really daunting task.
Driving Change in Organizations
00:32:30
Speaker
So guess what? We won't do it. And we'll find the safe spaces, but they won't be in those places where decisions are made about organizations, about careers.
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah, and in the work that you do in working with big organizations, how long in the process, like how long do you work with them typically for before you start to see change? Because they're like the Titanic's, right? The big organizations can sometimes be.
00:32:57
Speaker
Yeah, they are. But, you know, I think we're looking for transformation when often, so I look at remediate optimized transform, and often I'm going in at the remediate stage or moving into optimized stage. And one of the things I say to my clients is grab the little wins. There will be, you know, the low hanging fruit. Let's grab it and let's amplify what we've done. So the reality is change can happen really quickly. And some of that change can be
00:33:27
Speaker
Not as visible to all stakeholders as possible. I know one particular organization which you and I both know and love. I saw change within six months at the executive level. Wow. We had an executive team who just had the, well, they had a no-shit moment, but they just went right okay. And it was really quick.
00:33:49
Speaker
Now, was that visible to every person in that organization? Probably not, but the ripple effect would be felt. So I think it depends on how we define change, Amber. Yes, we can see representation change, what have you, but honestly, the work that I do is about hearts and minds, behaviors. The attitude of change. Or even in that instance, that's people with really great intent that did not
00:34:19
Speaker
did not know or had not seen it. It hadn't been brought to their attention in a way that you would have come in, get shit done and said, this is the reality of what you're looking at. Exactly. And this is confronting the brutal facts. And those brutal facts for many organisations have never ever been interrogated. And the thing that frustrates me the most is people, oh, and of course, we've got International Women's Day coming up.
00:34:47
Speaker
as we record this in a couple of months' time. And I roll my eyes, because I go, yeah, I'll get the usual amount of companies that come and say, come in and do it, and they won't do anything for the rest of the year. And I call bullshit on that. But I think there's the systematic approach to change. This just has to become a part of everyday business, just like revenue, just like cost management, just like risk management. We've actually got to say people management is super important.
00:35:17
Speaker
And, you know, if we're dinking about our values and the values that we espouse to all of our stakeholders, what about fairness? Why is it fair that some people get ahead and other people don't? It's not. So let's talk about that. So anyway, we've just got to work out how, what does success look like? And of course, I was having a workshop with, with one of my amazing clients yesterday and they said, Oh, you know,
00:35:44
Speaker
What does a roadmap look like? I said, bottom line is you've got to do just a couple of things really well in year one. Do them, nail them, talk about them, do them again, do them again. And the companies who have this laundry list of things, I've seen beautiful strategy documents, right? I've seen absolutely gorgeous strategy documents. I've seen less gorgeous implementation. In fact, I've seen very little, very good implementation.
00:36:09
Speaker
Well, a mentor once said to me, if you can't write your strategy on one piece of paper, it's not going to be implemented. Absolutely. Absolutely. We overcomplicate things and you've got to be able to communicate it. So anyway, so we've got to get better at saying this is the change and these are the
00:36:26
Speaker
little things that we're going to be really happy with because they're going to have a ripple effect and we're going to celebrate them, then we'll do a bit more, then we'll do a bit more. So it's a hard question to answer because people are looking for that transformative revolutionary change. The reality is there's not a lot of revolution going on in DEI because there's not appetite for it. And I understand why. I'm pretty pragmatic about that.
00:36:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's moving beat by beat. And in one of your episodes of your Leatsaw podcast, you talk about the overflying water from the CEO and how that ripples down to the leadership team and then how that ripples down and how the water changes between the purity of it from the top and then what happens as it starts to cascade down the organization.
00:37:12
Speaker
Well, you know, the old saying fish rots from the head. I'd prefer to say the fish thrives from the head, you know. And we do. We have to get the most senior people in the organisation on the bus driving it and then tooting it everyone along the way. That's as simple as that. I'm really keen to understand how you moved into doing so much work and advocacy for women
Women in Sports and Leadership
00:37:33
Speaker
in sport. What was that, you know, coming out of 15 years in Telstra and then other industries? How did that happen?
00:37:40
Speaker
A couple of intersection points, one, just sports been part of my life since, you know, since I could total around and then, you know, my kids started playing sport and I started getting involved in their sport, particularly in my daughter's sport netball and I, you know.
00:37:54
Speaker
started coaching, empowering, managing, scoring. And then they just said, oh, you look right. Let's get you on the committee. Jumped on to the committee and became the secretary of an incorporated body for about eight years. And I loved it. And I thought, aha, this is how I can bring my business expertise into sport. This is the contribution I can make to sport.
00:38:16
Speaker
backstory is, you know, I'd grown up in an environment where community service and service to your sporting club was just, that's just what you did. So I never knew anything different. But then I went, I really love footy. So if I can do this in netball, why can't I do it in footy?
00:38:31
Speaker
So I did. And I set about doing that. But then I went, where's all the women directors? And where? Hang on a minute. Jesus, not a lot of women in leadership positions. And started to think, well, I wonder what I should do about that. And then at the same time, one of my beautiful friends, Christy,
00:38:51
Speaker
was working for Carlton Footy Club and she said, can you just come in and observe a couple of sessions? We're trying to build a bit of a roadmap, an inclusion roadmap, and I think we could do with your feedback. And long story short, I started working with them. I worked with Carlton for a year and Jenkins and others to build out a series of activations and events aimed at engaging both staff and corporate partners
00:39:19
Speaker
in what it means to be inclusive. And about that time, I had a different business name. And I remember I'm sitting in exactly the spot I was sitting in. My wife came in the door one Friday night. She said, your business name doesn't work. And I said, no, it doesn't really, does it?
00:39:36
Speaker
And she said, you actually need to be advancing women. I said, yeah, that's a bit broad though. And she said, oh, I said, what about advancing women in business? And she said, yeah, but what about sport? I went advancing women in business and sport, and that's it. And we changed, because she does all the, you know, backend stuff. She says, right, oh, new ABN, register the new business, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, come up with a new brand and got on Canva.
00:39:58
Speaker
created some crappy little logo overnight, went out to my clients and said, this is now my new name. And what's in a name? People started going, oh, sport. Hmm. And then it just kind of snowballed from there. And the advocacy work, I just thought someone needs to do this. And that this for me was the research stuff, which leads to the podcast, to the advocacy was there's a lot of data, but it's, it's fragmented.
00:40:26
Speaker
disaggregated and I thought, I need to bring all this data together for time poor, often volunteer executives and board directors in sports so that they can go, aha, this is the current, these are the brutal truths. These are the brutal facts. And then, and this is what you can do about it. So I thought, I just need to create a, this is what the status is. This is why it's important for you to fix it. This is how you can fix it. Here's your playbook. And that's how it started. And it just keeps going on and on and on.
00:40:53
Speaker
That's incredible. I mean, when you say what's in the name, you've spoken before about the language of power in connecting to business outcomes. And in that name, that's exactly what you're doing. Not trying to be, I suppose, clever in being metaphorical or abstract, just being really direct and saying, this is linked to the outcome that you need. And I'm the person who is with me. Absolutely.
00:41:19
Speaker
And it was also a part of saying, you know, I'm not all things to all people, Amber. And, you know, part of your brand promise, which you're the expert on, I'm not, is this is what you will get from me. If you want something else, I can't do that or I won't do that, but I know someone who can. And that's back to the connector. So I have great connection. So if someone said to me, could you come and do a strategy day for the XYZ? Is it about DEI or advancing women? No.
00:41:42
Speaker
OK, I need you to go and talk to my friends, so and so. And that's a true story that happened last year. No, no, I'm not the right person for you. Here's the right person. So it also gives me those guardrails or that, you know, oxygen mask on first. I don't want to be all things to all people. I cannot, but I want to be really good at what I do. Becomes it helps having a single minded product offer when your proposition is tight. It means, yeah, you can measure
00:42:11
Speaker
relevancy for business for you quite quickly. Absolutely. Absolutely. You also spoke in your podcast in season three, there was an episode called how to network like a boss. And we spoke a bit before about networking, but I want to drill down into your connection with the word being a boss. And you mentioned right at the beginning of this podcast about you love the idea of boss women.
00:42:33
Speaker
For some women, so in the previous six episodes we recorded last year, this was a tricky question. What does bringing a boss mean to you? And a lot of women, I would say 70% of the guests, sort of felt uncomfortable about the word boss. They didn't resonate with you. And then when we unpacked it, you know, they started to sort of say, yes, actually that does resonate. But there was an intrinsic repelling of that term.
00:43:01
Speaker
Talk to me, if someone says you're a brand boss, and we've described that to you, what comes up for you? Hell yeah. And I have always wanted to be the boss. Leadership for me, being a boss, has been what has driven me since I can remember.
00:43:19
Speaker
And I know that now because I've reflected on it, but I want to be in charge. I want to make the rules. And if I want to break them, that's fine. I don't like being told what to do. Surprise, surprise to anyone who knows me. Not. And so for me, being a boss, I'm very, very comfortable with that word. I'm also very comfortable with power. And I know that these are words because of the way we're conditioned by society, that women are conditioned to repel.
00:43:47
Speaker
And, you know, no, no, no, I don't, I'm not like that one. Because we've often associated boss and power with folks who are
00:43:56
Speaker
I'm ethical and want power for power. So I want to be a boss and I want power because I know what I can do with that Boston and that power. I will create a better world. I am creating a better world because I'm in charge. It's as simple as that. So I'm very, very comfortable with it and have never had an issue with it.
00:44:18
Speaker
I love that, you know, there's always a meme going around from time to time. You know, the word bossy, women are saying, you know, we're reclaiming the word bossy. Well, I just say, you know, fuck that shit. I'm not bossy. I am the boss. I love that. Yes. So, I mean, they're completely different. 100%. Certainly in the way that they're used, they're completely different. Yeah. 100%. And I like boss woman because I'm not a girl. I'm not a boss girl.
00:44:43
Speaker
You know, I'm not a girl. I used to be a girl 747 years ago. I'm a woman and I appreciate my womanhood and I freaking well earned it. I'm a boss woman, so I'm very comfortable with it, Amber. I acknowledge that many women are not.
00:45:00
Speaker
And that's what I want to talk to them about. I want you to get comfortable with Boston. I want you to get comfortable with power because these are not words that should repel us. They should be words that we embrace because on average, women in power provide and create more change, more positive change in the world than not. And there's a whole range of reasons around that. But the reality is that when we gain power,
00:45:30
Speaker
we do good. When women thrive, their families thrive, society thrives, economies thrive. So it's a really good thing. Good. I can see more merch coming out. We might launch the merch too. We'll do some co-lapse.
00:45:49
Speaker
Oh God, my wife's going to go, great, more boxes of shit in the garage. In the spirit of the power of language. So if, if being a boss starts with a B, we ask all of our guests, is there a moment and a word that starts with B that comes to mind that had impact for you? So it doesn't need to be boss. It could be a moment of bravery, a moment of bullshit, but
00:46:18
Speaker
A B moment for you that comes to mind. I think brilliant. I love, I say brilliant all the time. Brilliant, brilliant. And so a brilliant moment, I've got two actually, I'll be an overachiever. Number one was when I learned, when I read the paper, that I was one of Australia's top 100 women of influence. And I was reading the paper on a tray and I went, holy shit. And I'd missed the email, of course. So I thought, brilliant, brilliant. I love that because it was recognition of the work that I'd done
00:46:48
Speaker
And the other brilliant I've got is I feel brilliant because I've published my book. There's another B word. That is, well, yeah, that is pretty incredible. So I have one more question for you before we do a wrap up. I'm conscious of your time. Is there something that you've read that you wish when you were younger, someone said to you, Hey, read or listen to, cause now of course we have, you know, podcasts and Ted talks. Does anything come up for mind for you that could be inspirational for someone else?
00:47:18
Speaker
Yeah, so I want every woman to read No Silling, No Walls by Susan Collentino. Susan's my friend, my mentor, and my business partner. When I first read that book and watched the TED Talk, because there's a company in TED Talk, the career advice you probably never got, I went
00:47:35
Speaker
Oh, right, I needed this when I was 25, Susan, not when I'm 45. So, or 50, I think I was. So, No Silling No Balls goes beyond conventional career advice that's given to women and really shines a light on all of those things, all of the things I talk about in the Lead to Saw podcast, business, strategic, financial, acumen, the language of power, networking is working. It's a super important book. And my book, The Leadership Compass builds on that.
00:48:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's super important. I wish I'd had it at 25. And when will that book be out?
00:48:08
Speaker
your book. March 26 is my book, Susan's book you're going to get right now. Anyway, all right. Well, we will put those in the show notes. Well, it's time for a wrap. Thank you for being such an amazing co-host today. And of course, a boss woman, someone who definitely bites big and inspires, well, me personally, but no doubt will inspire thousands of other women to get shit done. I really loved, I loved the word brilliant and
00:48:34
Speaker
just the fact that you were on a train when you realized that you were one of the 100 women of influence. I think that does a lot. Just keep going, keep going. I love the fact that you're a rule breaker and that you have inspired and continue to advocate without someone asking you to for other people. And you've certainly been an inspiration for me. Given this podcast is produced and made by women, something that
00:48:59
Speaker
We're very proud of here. Show our gratitude. We donate $500 on your behalf to your chosen charity. And I would like to hear a little bit about our watch. So they're a national leader in the prevention of violence against women and their children. How long have you been connected to this organization and what does that mean to you? So our watch is, as you said, it's the peak body for research and advocacy in Australia to prevent
00:49:24
Speaker
violence against women and violence against women is a scourge. And it's actually a really big problem in Australia. Per capita, women die violently in greater numbers than really any other developed country in the world. So we have a big issue. And of course, gender equality is an enabler of eliminating violence against women. So our watch I've been following for a long, long time. I really admire their work. Their CEO Patty Kinnesley is
00:49:51
Speaker
inspirational and amazing to listen to. So I learn a lot from them. I read all of their stuff. It's just incredibly important that we get behind these organisations that are dealing with an unpleasant truth, a brutal truth in Australia that women are still being killed by people that they loved or formerly loved at rates which are unacceptable.
00:50:18
Speaker
Well, thank you for shining a light on our watch. I read a statistic yesterday that in Queensland, their domestic violence has increased by 100% in the last 12 months. And that seems completely unacceptable. Just an awful, awful statistic. Well, thank you, Michelle. What an incredible honour it has been to listen to you and talk about your mantra. And I can't wait to read your book. And I certainly hope I get an invite to your launch party.
00:50:49
Speaker
You absolutely will, Amber. And thanks for having me. I love the fact, you know, a podcast by women, for women and others, and, you know, good on you for the work that you're doing. This takes a lot of effort and the fact that you're being so generous to provide a platform that amplifies my work is awesome. So it's brilliant in fact. Thank you very much. Well, thank you for using your B-word. Well, everyone, I've been your host, Amber Bonney. And until next episode, I hope you all bite big and chew like hell. Thanks very much.