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Amber Bites Big with Donna De Zwart, CEO of Charitable organisation, Fitted For Work.
21 Plays9 days ago
In Episode 15 of BITE BIG, Amber is joined by Donna de Zwart, CEO of Fitted for Work, a social enterprise that’s helped over 46,000 women reclaim their independence through employment.
With a career spanning education, consulting and social enterprise, Donna’s mantra is clear and quietly radical: “Look for the beauty.” Born from personal hardship, it’s a daily practice that shapes everything from the way her team answers the phone to how they prepare clients for job interviews.
👑 Boss Takeaways from Episode 15 with Donna
- “Look for the beauty” – Donna’s mantra reminds us that even in moments of darkness, beauty can be found in people, in purpose, and in the quiet dignity of starting again.
- Work is power – It’s not just about a job. Employment is a key to choice, safety and autonomy, especially for women recovering from family violence.
- Reinvention is resilience – From wardrobes to worldviews, Donna shares how beauty and creativity are deeply connected to personal reinvention and healing.
- The ripple effect is real – Helping one woman into work can shift the trajectory for entire families, communities and future generations.
- Systemic change starts with action – From launching programs for girls as young as 14 to partnering with corporate giants like Coles and Accenture, Donna proves that small acts can spark big shifts.
- No safety net? Build one – Donna’s decade of leadership at Fitted for Work hasn’t been easy. But with tenacity, vision and a board that believes, she’s shown that passion, not privilege, builds progress.
🔗 Follow BITE BIG for more unfiltered stories from women who lead big one mantra at a time.
Links:
Donna De Zwart LinkedIn
Donna De Zwart Instagram
Fitted For Work Web
Fitted For Work Instagram
Fitted For Work Facebook Page
Amber's Instagram
Amber's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's LinkedIn
The Edison Agency's Instagram
CREDITS
Host & ECD – Amber Bonney, The Edison Agency Founder
Producer – Niki Beeston, Group Account Director, The Edison Agency
Marketing – Liz Archer, Head of Operations, The Edison Agency
Social Assets – Alyssa Payad, Intern, The Edison Agency
Post Production – Francine Toscano, 17th Street Audio
Recommended
Transcript
Acknowledgment of Traditional Landowners
00:00:00
Speaker
On behalf of the Bite Big team, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are recording on today, the Boon Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation. We recognise that with over 60,000 years of experience, First Peoples of Australia are most definitely the original storytellers, designers and artists of this country, and we pay our respect to their elders past, present and emerging.
Introduction and Season Overview
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello, before we get stuck into this episode of Fight Big, let me tell you a little bit about who the hell I am and why this content is important to me. My name's Amber Bonney and for the past 25 years, I've been reshaping iconic Australian and international brands, helping them stay relevant, get noticed and be remembered in the good kind of way.
00:00:47
Speaker
I'm a passionate feminist and committed to advocating for better representation of women in senior creative and marketing roles, which is why this podcast is proudly brought to you by my business, The Edison Agency.
00:01:00
Speaker
If your brand or organisation needs help aligning your vision to your reputation, then you can find us at www.edison.agency or you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Let's get into it.
00:01:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to Season 3, Episode 15 of Bite Big, the podcast where we dive deep into the personal mantras of powerhouse women shaping our industries, breaking barriers and redefining leadership.
00:01:27
Speaker
I'm your host, Amber Bonney, founder of the Edison Agency, and today we're tackling a topic that's as powerful as it is necessary, women's economic independence. Joining as co-host
Donna Dizouart and Fitted for Work
00:01:38
Speaker
today is a woman whose impact is undeniable and I'm really humbled to welcome Donna Dizouart, CEO of Fitter for Work. Welcome Donna.
00:01:47
Speaker
Donna, with over 30 years in the education and social enterprise sector, you've also appeared on Channel 9's Today Tonight. You lead an incredible organisation dedicated to empowering women with all skills and confidence that they need to enter the workforce and thrive.
00:02:01
Speaker
That's a really huge responsibility. And you've carried that, especially in the last 10 years in your work with Fitted for Work. And i I love, after I was watching the Today Tonight session, that you were described as a job angel.
00:02:14
Speaker
I'm not sure if you have a T-shirt with that on it yet, but I did think that was great. And your leadership has impacted and been validated by the Fitted for Work's multiple Telstra Business Awards, including the Victorian Accelerating Women Awards. So congratulations on that.
00:02:29
Speaker
Today we'll explore
Finding Beauty in Adversity
00:02:30
Speaker
your personal mantra and the impact this has had on your career, the challenges that you've tackled in the employment space and the real impact of giving women the tools to financial independence and we'll talk about what it means to create systemic change.
00:02:43
Speaker
So let's kick this off and get under the skin of your personal mantra and why we think you're a boss woman with an inspiring story to tell. All right. So the premise of this podcast, Bite Big. So Bite Big and Chew Like Hell is my personal mantra. And each episode we talk about the individual mantras.
00:03:01
Speaker
Now your mantra is look for beauty. Look for the beauty. Now in your industry, I imagine that can probably sometimes be tough. How did this mantra come about?
00:03:12
Speaker
So this mantra came about at a really difficult time in my life where I certainly was not looking for or couldn't see the beauty in anything that I was doing.
00:03:24
Speaker
And a girlfriend of mine who's, um you know, my best friend said to me at my darkest moment, Donna, what if this is as good as life gets?
00:03:36
Speaker
What if right now this is as good as it gets? And I thought she was being a bit harsh at the time um because I thought, really, it just can't get any worse. But actually it made me stop and think, you know, if this was my last day on earth, you know, what am I going to remember?
00:03:53
Speaker
And I don't know, something shifted in me that day. And so from that moment on, I have tried as much as possible to look for the beauty, no matter what's going on in my life, good or bad.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah. And I imagine that you would gain quite a bit of strength from that, you know, when you, as you imagine, especially in 2025, it has been a bit of ah a rock show start to the year.
00:04:17
Speaker
Having that mantra just, you know, simmering away underneath would be quite helpful. Yeah, incredibly helpful. And I i think, um you know, it's been reinforced by different things I've read and ah witnessed and experienced over my life. I was thinking back just the other day to, you know, 9-11 when that happened and my children were quite small at the time. And there was no way from shielding your children around what they were seeing. It was everywhere. And it was on repeat.
00:04:50
Speaker
And i was listening to something ah from a character, a television presenter for a children's program in the US, Mr. Rogers. I think there's been a film made about him as well. And he used to tell the children, look for the helpers, look for the helpers.
00:05:08
Speaker
So no matter how bad things are and we're, you know, seeing terrible things at the moment with Cyclone Alfred, but look for the helpers. There's there's beauty in that. There's beauty in that sort of moral awe, if you like.
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's a gift in there as a reminder, I think, for for everyone, because it can be quite easy to get caught up in the day to I really love that. And especially in the industry that you work you know, bringing women a sense of dignity, you know, that has impact not only on the individual, but on the on the whole community. So coming out coming at that from a sense of looking for the beauty, I imagine would be really helpful in your line of work.
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that I'm really quite proud of and that I talk to our team about all the time, that everything we do has to be beautiful.
00:06:03
Speaker
So whether it's the first phone call that a woman receives from us, the first service that she receives from us, it has to be beautiful. Yeah, really thinking about that total, I suppose, experience for the customer.
00:06:17
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Because they're going to be finding it hard. They never ring us when they're in the best moments of their life. It'll always be in the worst moments of their life. So how can we bring a little bit of beauty
The Power of Beauty and Creativity
00:06:30
Speaker
to them? I really love that.
00:06:31
Speaker
Your career has spanned, you know, consulting, education, social enterprise, this idea of sort of reinvention and its connection to beauty. Has that been ah theme for you this idea of reinvention?
00:06:45
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And I think we all do it at different points in our lives. You know, my personal life has had lots of highs and and and many lows. And at times I've needed to go and reinvent myself because I've lost myself in something. And, you know, the first place that I've done that is in my wardrobe.
00:07:08
Speaker
And even to this day. feels better than just a completely new set of clothes or outfits. Or even just the way you're styling yourself. and And to this day, I still see myself as a blank canvas every morning. I think about who I'm going to meet that day.
00:07:27
Speaker
I think about how I'm feeling, what colour is going to lift me if I'm not feeling great. Well, love that you're wearing Edison blue today and Bite Big podcast blue. That was pure coincidence, but I'm glad that turned out that way. You were chatteling. Yeah. But yeah, and I think along with beauty comes creativity. And for me, beauty is...
00:07:50
Speaker
not something passive, it's active. So, you know, that might be how I start my day. But even the environments in which we work, and I know here at Edison, the offices are beautiful. That's important too, the environments in which we live, the environments um in which we work. And I know that that might seem a bit shallow on some levels ah for some people, but there is actual science behind what beauty brings us and how it can change our whole physical being.
00:08:22
Speaker
So i think it's really important. And that could be quite a personal experience, right? Like for people who are exceptionally connected to nature, you know, that might be working working out on the farm. That could be, you know, on the tractor or that could be if you're a an urban dweller, that might be just having some beautiful plants around a space that makes you feel safe and good and, you know, and respected. And, you know, we all know to your point that the role of, know,
00:08:52
Speaker
design in helping shape our experience is, you know, hugely influential. Everything from architecture to interior to fashion to product design to how you feel when you, you know, sit in a car and the type of car that is. Absolutely. And um a book that had, I suppose, confirmed for me what I had always felt I'd known um and, again, backed in science is um The Power of Awe and The Science of Awe.
00:09:23
Speaker
um And that's a book by Dasha Keltner. He talks about, you know, the six different types of awe. And I think with awe comes wonder. And I think with
Economic Independence and Domestic Violence
00:09:34
Speaker
wonder, that feeling that, you know, the world is full of magic and possibility. And the work that we do at Fitted for Work is very much around that moral beauty. It's when we see, you know, the the race at the Olympics and we see someone that's stumbled and fallen and a competitor pick them up and help them across the finish line. You know, we all relate to that.
00:09:58
Speaker
And I think that's one of the beautiful things that Fitted for Work gives me every day. Yeah, what a gift. And also, i think, think a beautiful and timely message or reminder to people to look for the beauty. I think that's what's so lovely about this mantra is it's very easy to forget what that is.
00:10:16
Speaker
You would see all walks of life coming through Fitted for Work. And i think what I love about your organisation is and what we understand certainly about family violence, for example, is it really doesn't discriminate based on socioeconomic status. Of course, there's varying levels of privilege that impact that, but you would see all sorts of people coming through your doors, your customers. And um I'm wondering if you could share, i suppose, a couple of stories where this sense of reinvention comes through for your customers.
00:10:48
Speaker
Yeah, and and I think something we don't talk enough about is we don't talk enough about the fact that if you are a survivor of domestic violence, you are always a survivor of domestic violence. The impact...
00:11:03
Speaker
that it has is lifelong, whether that's, you know, recurrent trauma or, you know, things that that trigger different memories for you But, you know, it has a lifelong impact. It doesn't stop. no, it doesn't.
00:11:19
Speaker
We also know through research that poverty and domestic and family violence, and I want to include in that not just physical violence but also financial abuse, emotional abuse,
00:11:32
Speaker
as well, that, um you know, poverty and and abuse go hand in hand. So at Fitted for Work, you know, we believe that every woman is entitled to economic independence and security.
Transformative Impact of Fitted for Work
00:11:45
Speaker
And we believe one of the best ways for her to achieve that is through employment. And we know that money doesn't buy happiness, but what we do know is it buys you choice.
00:11:56
Speaker
the choice to leave a bad situation, the choice to start again. And that's why employment is so incredibly important. And we have seen it transform the lives of thousands and thousands of women. In fact, we celebrate 20 years this year, over 46,000 women we've managed to assist around it Australia in that time.
00:12:19
Speaker
If I think about the stories, they range from the very simple. I remember not long after I started, there was a woman that came into our services.
00:12:30
Speaker
She ah had a styling session, which is one of the services that we offer, and it's probably what we're best known for. She came in, had the styling session, walked out with bags and bags of clothing, some of it in Maya bags and Country Road bags,
00:12:47
Speaker
And as we always do, we check up on our clients afterwards um a couple of weeks down the track. And she talked to us about that day and how it transformed her life.
00:13:01
Speaker
She said that that day she walked back to Flinders Street Station. She stood on the steps of Flinders Street Station and she said for the first time, I just felt like everybody else.
00:13:14
Speaker
I felt like I belonged. So, you know, a simple act like that can change the course of
Challenges in Female Leadership
00:13:20
Speaker
your life. But I also think there is a legacy issue here as well.
00:13:25
Speaker
um One of the more recent stories is a young man that I met at ah and an organisation who were presenting us with a cheque. And he came over very quietly spoken and talked to me about his mother.
00:13:39
Speaker
um His mother, 18 years ago, sought the services as a fit of Fitter for Work. She was a single mum and um she managed to get a job with a bank. And he talked about how that transformed his life and his sister's life.
00:13:54
Speaker
And in turn, now he's two little boys. So I was going to mention that because we know that not only is this cyclic, the problem of family violence, but it becomes an intergenerational issue, both economically and from a trauma perspective. So the ripple effect of that one woman and and how that connects to the rest of her family and how she sets an example for her children through her own financial independence, especially, you know, we know that the science tells us that women who don't have financial independence, the risk there is of her daughter not having financial independence. So that the financial literacy becomes an issue in the family. So the level of change and influence is significant.
00:14:42
Speaker
so significant. It's far, it's far reaching. And the other thing I don't think we talk enough about is we don't talk enough about how important work is in terms of the safety that it can, and it doesn't always, and I acknowledge that, but the safety it can provide for a woman if she's in a dangerous situation, if she is able to work. You know, sometimes work can be the only place where a woman feels that she's valued, that shes she belongs, and not just women, for for everyone in our community. i think we undersell sometimes all the the benefits we get apart from a paycheck from work, you know, the sense of self,
00:15:27
Speaker
the the the learning that goes on, the social interaction. And I think we're all still trying to work out what the best balance is post-COVID. It's tricky, right? Yeah.
00:15:39
Speaker
It would be remiss of me not to share a a personal story. So I am a survivor of ah family violence as well. And it was a situation that thankfully i am past the the crisis, but for a good reason,
00:15:52
Speaker
I would say 15 years, a very complex scenario unfolded that took a very long time to remove myself from. And I was very fortunate that I had an education behind me, the sheer, like,
00:16:09
Speaker
tenacity to say I am not going to be downtrodden by this and I was able to provide a life for myself and my son that would not have been possible and there really isn't much of a day that would go by that I would not feel grateful that I had that because I recognise that not all people, you know, and the colour of my skin would have helped that, you know, there's all contributing factors so even though I came from a I suppose, a situation that was not of privilege. I had privilege that supported me in being able to earn a good income, start my own business, all of those things for financial independence. So it is absolutely, personally, ah privilege, I think, to be able to support organisations like Fitted for Work now in this stage of my career, but for other businesses to or organisations to make sure that they're doing the right thing in their own organisation to support survivors of domestic violence.
00:17:07
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for sharing that. Thank you for listening. I want to talk about um female leadership because you have been in the in industry for a long time and you've had lots of very senior roles. What do you think is, I suppose, the most difficult thing for
Childcare Reform and Systemic Support
00:17:23
Speaker
women in leadership at the moment?
00:17:25
Speaker
Yeah, it definitely is multi-pronged. it definitely is a complex and I think wicked problem to solve. I think, you know, everyone's story is individual.
00:17:39
Speaker
Everyone's responsibilities are different and at different stages of a woman's life as well. And I think we're just starting to recognise too that for many men who want to step up, it can be difficult and complex as well because our workplaces are not really structured to deal with some of the barriers, for example, around childcare or even even culturally. and And I also think the other layer on top of that is the business itself.
00:18:11
Speaker
And I struggle with this, um you know, running a business. And I know people will say, no, it's a charity. Well, we still have to come up in the black. So, you know, we're not we're not a ah massive business. We have about 40 staff.
00:18:27
Speaker
I need to balance what is going to work and what is going to enable my team to be the best version of themselves, not just in work but out of work because I know that when I'm able to do both of those things, I'm going to get the best out of people with what's good for the business.
00:18:46
Speaker
And I think that is therein lies the problem, you know. So, yes, we need systemic change. We need cultural change. um But we also need to recognise that businesses are doing it tough at the moment as well.
00:19:00
Speaker
And how do we how do we find or strike that balance? i I don't know. i haven't got a simple answer. But I do think sometimes we underestimate the complexity i'll of the challenges on both sides.
00:19:18
Speaker
And, yeah, things do need to change. But I think we're in a really interesting phase of our history. Yeah. because, you know, COVID through if the baby out with the bathwater in some ways and now we're trying to find, well, what's what's the balance? Yeah, what's the new norm?
00:19:36
Speaker
And I think we're, you know, we're we're only sort of a little way down the road to finding what works for everyone. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned before childcare, we know that is one of the biggest issues for families. And you've got a government saying we're not having enough children, but then you've got people's lived experience saying we can't afford to have children or it's so hard to have children and obviously have both parents work, which is the norm for most families, that do we really want to put that strain on ourselves? And that's why young people are choosing not to have children because it's
00:20:13
Speaker
They've seen what their parents have suffered through. That's right. and and Or maybe what they've suffered through as children themselves. um And i can I can completely understand that.
00:20:24
Speaker
But, yeah, we need major reform around particularly childcare. And then the cultural shift in childcare around not expecting that the woman is the father the primary carer. Every family is individual. Mostly it is an economic decision.
00:20:40
Speaker
But the challenge that, as you would know statistically, is that women when women are the ones who have to sacrifice their career, ultimately they do end up with a deficit in their income, in their training, in their development, in their opportunity to elevate. And that just continues from first child all the way through. yeah And where it really starts to play out is in the growing number of women over 55 that are experiencing homelessness.
00:21:08
Speaker
you know Do you think that's going to change the people who are... The generation that are now experiencing homelessness post-50, for example, have probably come from a generation where things like superannuation were only just being mandated. There wasn't the infrastructure in place to protect.
00:21:27
Speaker
I'm hoping in 20 years' time that will have changed because there's more... both financial literacy and understanding of things like that? Yeah, look, I think so. But I also think there are other layers on top of that. Certainly, we know that between the ages of 45 and 55, that's when most marriages, if they're going to break down, they'll break down during time. Coinciding with perimenopause. Correct.
00:21:51
Speaker
And also, if you think about ageing parents, because our parents are living longer and living longer with chronic disease, illnesses. So I think there's a lot of things playing into that.
00:22:04
Speaker
and i And I'm not sure how just having the super is going to fix that. Yeah, yeah. But we are seeing some shifts and we are seeing more recognition. I mean, I'm going to turn 60 next year. And I know that when I went through, for example, perimenopause, there was nothing.
00:22:24
Speaker
And nobody talked about it. Really, mean, I would say the last 18 months, two years max that people have been talking about. Absolutely. And that there are options available. And also, you know, having, ah you know, reproductive leave at work, for example, and issues around that has made a massive difference. Just the recognition, this is a difficult time for many women. And and how do we help them navigate that? Because,
00:22:50
Speaker
I think what can happen and I have seen happen is women will blow up their lives because they feel this incredible sense of powerlessness around their bodies, around their emotions, around how they're feeling, their relationships. So they'll be looking for reinvention at any point. possible.
Female Camaraderie and Financial Literacy
00:23:10
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:23:12
Speaker
yeah But what I do want to reassure people listening to this is that you do come out the other side stronger and stepping into the power that you have as an older woman.
00:23:24
Speaker
And I'm only just sort of getting to that point. I'm excited for the next decade of my life. Yeah. to that point yeah right now Well, I empathise. I really do.
00:23:37
Speaker
um But yeah, I, I, I do think, you know, we don't talk enough about how wonderful life can be with the wisdom that you've gained and the experiences that you have and the role that you can now play.
00:23:53
Speaker
in not only the workplace, but in the lives of other women. Yeah, I think what the one thing I'm learning, i feel like growing up, I was born in the 70s, growing up sort of in school in the 80s and the 90s, there was this real falsity around women's competitiveness with each other.
00:24:13
Speaker
And I haven't experienced that personally in my career. I've actually certainly now found the camaraderie of women, very, very generous. And, you know, for example, coming on a podcast, um sharing your wisdom, I feel like there's a real, if we can continue that for girls, but even starting as young as primary school, you know, you mentioned one of the systemic barriers for women and families being childcare opportunities, for example.
00:24:42
Speaker
I feel like that the financial literacy really needs to be taught at a much younger age so that women are actually empowered to to go on and understand where their money's going, build their careers. And when it comes to having families, it's more of a mutual conversation around who's doing what when it comes to childcare rather than the assumption that because you've given birth, that means you're going to be there the primary carer.
00:25:10
Speaker
Do you know many programs that are starting at that age? like I have to say, no I don't. But one of my big passion projects that we're currently seeking funding for is we would really love to start working with girls from the age of 14 years and nine months when they're ready to get their first part-time jobs. Yeah. Because you know what? Our services that revolve around, you know, getting women ready for work, helping them find work and then helping them stay in work, those services are the same regardless of whether you're 14 years and nine months or 55. If you need a resume, you need a resume. If you need interview skills or job search skills, they're no different. No, I mean, imagine the impact
00:26:00
Speaker
probably even greater in terms of the long-term ripple effect, the younger that you can enter into someone's life. Yeah, absolutely. um We'd really like to focus, we're we're calling this program The Next Generation, and we'd really like to focus this particularly in lower socioeconomic areas where perhaps there is intergenerational unemployment and and poverty.
00:26:24
Speaker
um But I think you can talk to young people about how they can best use money. But I think if you've got a job and you're earning a paycheck, if that money, you see that money going into your account every two weeks, I think the the experience of what you do with that is a lot more powerful than the theoretical.
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah, you're seeing and feeling and plus you are experiencing choice much younger. That's right. Having the reward for effort and then being able to choose how you spend that regardless if it's, you know, on yogurt, frozen yogurts. Yeah, that's right. It doesn't matter. Yeah, that's right. The other thing, of course, is all the other skills that the workplace encourages You know, if you're a shy um person, you know, and you have to deal with customers, you know, the sooner we can help, you know, bring out those sorts of skills, I think the better.
00:27:31
Speaker
Yeah. It leads me to ah question that I've been thinking about around the undervalued skills of women in the workforce. What do you think they are? I think you talked a bit about, you know, transformation,
00:27:46
Speaker
I think that's something that we innately do most days, um particularly when we're younger. If you think about it from a purely physical perspective, our bodies are changing every single day. There's something going on every day.
00:28:04
Speaker
Also, the to build on that, the sense of, suppose, resilience then comes yes from that constant having to... think and adapt and pivot and... Correct.
00:28:15
Speaker
I think that's one of the most powerful things we have. I think we are very good at adapting to situations and seismic shifts.
00:28:26
Speaker
If you think about, you know, different stages in a woman's life, whether that's, you know, giving birth, whether that's experiencing menopause, whether that's,
Overcoming Challenges at Fitted for Work
00:28:37
Speaker
you know,
00:28:38
Speaker
your children leaving home, caring for elderly parents. They're seismic shifts in a woman's life and I think that we are very good at adapting.
00:28:48
Speaker
I'd be curious to know the statistics around women's natural propensity for risk and potentially I think that that's not about... natural skill I think it's about inherently that growing up, there's a structure for for boys or men to take more extreme risks and an acceptability for women.
00:29:10
Speaker
And we know that in the workforce, so certainly as an entrepreneur, but... when you're at a high senior level, you are paid really to take more risks and have more responsibility. So I'm wondering if there's yeah some sort of connection around actually teaching girls about you know safe risk taking, but actually you know that sense of innovation that comes from that so that there's not this fear of a failure you know and b that that's not something that comes naturally to you.
00:29:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think that a lot of it comes from, and, and you know, what I didn't talk about is, ah you know, the single common denominator for all the women that we see is lack of confidence and self-esteem.
00:29:56
Speaker
And I think a lot of the time we don't back ourselves to take that chance, to take that risk. And I think about times in my life where I was perhaps offered an opportunity and didn't think I could do it.
00:30:10
Speaker
The blokes will say, ah yeah, I can do that, even without the skill, whereas the women will literally scrutinise every single thing on a PD and oh, probably not.
00:30:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and there is science to back that, um that that does actually happen. But I think that's the greatest gift we can give women at Fitted for Work, and certainly I hope that's something that I give to my team is that I believe in them, I'll back them, And that's the important part, right? Like speaking about female leadership, the more female leaders there are who are advocating for women, and let's be real, females can be misogynist too, right? Totally. Not all females are on the side of other females, right?
00:30:55
Speaker
But percentage-wise, the more females in leadership, you have a greater chance of them backing and giving opportunity to people who may not have put themselves forward. I don't think it's always that men...
00:31:08
Speaker
don't want to give opportunity. i think it's just they potentially give opportunity to the same type of people. So the people that show more active, assertive, you know, more male-like traits, more alpha-like traits, potentially the same women rising to the top.
00:31:25
Speaker
Whereas there are lots of women who have the skills. They might lack the confidence. They might be more you know reserved in their disposition. So having more women in leadership, I think, who can recognise that and support that will then just continue this groundswell.
00:31:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And we know that when, you know, we lift one woman up, we lift all of us up. Yeah. Is there a time, Donna, if you're thinking about biting big and chewing like hell, right? So that's my mantra.
00:31:54
Speaker
Part of that has probably come from innate tenacity, maybe part foundational upbringing. Is there a time where or a moment where you have either not bitten big and regretted it?
Large Partnerships and Their Benefits
00:32:09
Speaker
or bitten really big and not had a great experience about that. yeah I've just celebrated 10 years at Fitted for Work and it was really lovely. um The board and and staff put on a little morning tea and I wasn't expecting it and I needed to think about you know, what the last 10 years has been like.
00:32:33
Speaker
And ah do remember saying that this is definitely the hardest job I have ever had in my life, without a doubt. And i I certainly think I bit off a lot more when I took this role on. Than you anticipated? Than I anticipated, yeah.
00:32:53
Speaker
Do you understand why that is? I think that a lot of people think the not-for-profit sector is run on love and compassion. yeah
00:33:04
Speaker
But actually, it's not. You have to be a smart business person. Everything has to be accounted for. Every dollar has to be accounted for. And you're often running on the smell of an oily rag.
00:33:18
Speaker
So you have to be at the top end of every other leader because you don't have the financial resources. You don't. You can't throw money at a problem. And i think I sort of knew that but I didn't really understand that when I first took on the role and how hard it would be. And people will look at us now and think that we are incredibly successful.
00:33:44
Speaker
And look, we are. We are successful. But I can't begin to tell you, and my husband will verify this, how many nights... I lay awake thinking, how am I going to pay our team? How are we going to make this work?
00:34:00
Speaker
And it really was at some points a day by day level of survival. I've been incredibly fortunate in that ah i've I've had the most amazing board members around me and the most amazing team members around me. And we have somehow managed to get through it. And you mentioned that word before, tenacity.
00:34:20
Speaker
Gosh, I learned tenacity from one of our um our previous chair, Mary Crooks, who is probably the most tenacious person I've ever met.
00:34:32
Speaker
Mary is the executive director of the Victorian Women's Trust and she was our chair for nine years. You know, there were times I thought, there's no way we're going to get through this.
00:34:44
Speaker
I could not see a way out. And Mary is all about, let's just take the next step. Let's just take the next step. And I think too that coupled with life experiences, you know, i i lost um my first husband when my kids were quite young and it was a it was a very difficult situation.
00:35:05
Speaker
um But another mantra that, um which sounds a bit trite, but another mantra that my kids and I have always lived by is nobody nobody's nobody's dying. nobody's dying So we'll find a way through this because that's as bad as it gets, right? Let's just look at the next step.
00:35:22
Speaker
Let's look at the next step. And slowly but surely we've climbed our way out of it. But I think if I had have known how difficult the job was, I don't know that I would have taken it on when I did.
00:35:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's the sentiment of probably almost every business owner. That's ever had to. I'm sure you've had that too. Yeah. And I think the the climate is quite similar that when you are running your own business, it's a very similar climate. You have a lack of resources.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah. You have, especially when, you know, you have big partnerships with big, you know, names, not to mention a board, but, you know, working with Microsoft and Coles and, You know, you have, there's big expectations for what you're going to deliver, but you have, you know, not the resources of an ASX listed company. No,
Self-Belief and Imposter Syndrome
00:36:10
Speaker
but what I would say is scary as sometimes those big partnerships when they come your way, because there is an expectation around what we will deliver on those, it actually has elevated us to a whole other level too. So it has pushed us forward.
00:36:28
Speaker
Well, there's a learning opportunity, right? When you partner with someone, and especially if that partner has a sense of a genuine partnership and a humility um and an empathy for what you're doing, they are always going to introduce a different way of doing something, a a process. That partnership will teach you something about, oh, this is how the big people work. Yeah, and it's a collaboration. It's a collaboration, right? And I think You know, we like to make sure that whoever our partners are, that we're working, they get as much out of it working with us as we do out of them. So we immerse them in into, you know, what our clients experience, um the client stories.
00:37:14
Speaker
and so on, and volunteering opportunities, because I think they gain as much as we do. But, you know, we've been very fortunate to work with the likes of Accenture, as you mentioned, Coles. We now work with all four of the major banks through our social enterprise.
00:37:31
Speaker
And I think that's testament to your leadership as well, because every little thing that you do contributes to the profile of Fitted for Work. And to you know, that sense of tenacity and that, you know, you could have easily sort of cowed away from that or, you know, potentially thought they're too big. We can't manage that. We can't deliver. We can't. But if you just, you know, bite big and chew like hell. I think that's right. yeah I think that's right. And I think a lot of it is backing yourself too. And I think sometimes...
00:38:02
Speaker
when those big opportunities come, what often comes out is that imposter syndrome that I think I've got to a point in my life where I can hear that voice rise up now and then and I think, yeah, that's a waste of time.
00:38:17
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like I have a real dislike for the term imposter syndrome because I feel like it's been created to hold women back specifically. Like it's it's very rare that I hear ah man vocalise imposter syndrome.
00:38:33
Speaker
It's much more often and maybe that is because I'm not sitting down having as many one-on-ones with men potentially. yeah yeah But I hear it a lot in the professional circle through mentoring and working with people of all. It's not even about age or experience. It's people at all experience levels that feel that. But it's such a disabler.
00:38:54
Speaker
It is. Even the thought that you don't belong somewhere rather than the reframe I'm feeling... not very confident at the moment or just kind of allowing that voice to come up and then going, oh, you're just being... i totally agree. And it took me a long time to work out, like I said, a it is such a waste of my time.
00:39:18
Speaker
The time I've spent in my life, you know, thinking I shouldn't be here, I'm an imposter. I'm the only one that thinks that. um And I've got to a point now, well, like i said, that little voice does rise up now and again.
00:39:30
Speaker
But then I think... no, I'm not buying that. I'm not buying that. I have something of value to bring to the table here. And again, i'm going I'm going to back myself.
Neuroscience Insights and Personal Growth
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah. Well, as all good therapists will say, validate the feeling and let it go. That's right. Yeah. that's right It's okay for it to come up. It's just what you do with it afterwards, really. sure. Yeah.
00:39:52
Speaker
It's curious. What would tell a younger version of yourself? Has there been something that's really influenced you as a book or ah ah podcast or even just a speaker that you think, wow, I wish I had have said that to my younger self or known that when I was younger?
00:40:11
Speaker
There is so much good stuff out there at the moment. And look, I'm a very curious person. I read a lot. And, you know, it's really hard for me to pinpoint one. One, I think I wish the likes of Brene Brown were around when I was younger, that my vulnerabilities were not necessarily weaknesses.
00:40:37
Speaker
No, it's that whole soft, hard skills, which is even just annoying the way that they're framed. Yeah. Is that, yeah you know, this assumption that soft skills are just fluffy and pink and not as important. Whereas in actual fact, what Brene Brown did...
00:40:50
Speaker
was just completely flipped that on its head. That's right. And said, in actual fact, those skills that we're referring to as soft are actually equally as important as the, you know, the the database skills or the the business, the business, traditional business type That's right. yeah And I think um the other thing that I would have encouraged my younger self to do um and look, ah again, I don't think the knowledge was out there at the time,
00:41:16
Speaker
But, you know, learn more about how your brain works. I've just finished reading Martha Beck's latest book around anxiety, um which is fascinating to understand how the brain works.
00:41:32
Speaker
Yeah. And the that has led me to another book, which is by Jill Bolte-Taylor. And I don't know, i think it's called The Whole Brain. But that is a woman who was a neurobiologist, I believe, and suffered a stroke at about 39, but knew she was having a stroke and shut down the left side of her brain. So she lost the language she lost the ability to have language to understand.
00:42:00
Speaker
But the right side of her brain... was still there. um And all she saw was awe and goodness and there was no anxiety in her life. So as she made a very slow recovery over seven years, she made the decision to ensure that she encompassed that right side of her brain as she gained the ability back on her left side of the brain.
00:42:25
Speaker
And I think for me, understanding that gives me ah greater level of self-awareness when I start to feel anxiety rising or um any sort of fear or negativity. Okay, what what's going on for me right now?
00:42:42
Speaker
What else can I bring in that might calm things down a little bit? Yeah, recognising the signs early. yeah And also I imagine, you know, certainly my experience of that is it also leads to a sense of self-kindness. When you can recognise something early, you can, without just feeling attached to a ah label,
00:43:05
Speaker
It's more about the experience in the moment. I so i spoke to a great um
Conclusion and Reflections
00:43:10
Speaker
paediatrician about one of my children who who said, it's important to understand you know the terms of you know anxiety or depression or ADHD, whatever they are, but you don't have to be defined by that label. So you can say, I'm experiencing this. Now, you might experience that regularly and daily, but it's not who you are. It's just that's what you're experiencing at that time and you'll go through ups and downs. And I thought that was a really... great reframe.
00:43:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And in Jill Bolte-Taylor's book, she talks about how it takes about 90 seconds for an emotion to completely wash through us and leave us if we allow it to, you know. So there's science to back all this up. And I i just feel there's a real superpower in being able to understand that and apply that.
00:43:59
Speaker
So, yeah, ah these are the sorts of things that I wish were available and that I understood when I was younger. Yeah, well, there's been some absolute nuggets in there today. Donna, I really am so grateful for you giving up your time to talk to us and to our listeners. I know we'll get a lot out of this conversation.
00:44:18
Speaker
I love your personal mantra of looking for the beauty and I'm actually going to take that under my wing and this year has been ah a rocky start. You know, if you're a person that feels a lot like I do, when there's so much uncertainty, it can be hard sometimes to look for the beauty. So thank you for that.
00:44:35
Speaker
I also really loved this sense of the world is full of magic and possibility. I definitely encourage listeners to think about that because it feels um overwhelming at the moment. I also loved how you talked about just taking the next step, the the inspiration from Mary Crooks. And if you are going through a difficult time, just just take day by day, day by day. i think that's a really that's a really great expression to leave everyone with. We are going to put some some of those books you mentioned, obviously, Brene Brown, if
00:45:06
Speaker
Unless you've been living under a rock, most people are familiar with Brene Brown, but The Power of Awe, we'll put that in the show notes, Martha Bex and gin Jill Balty-Taylor, because I think that might be really great references.
00:45:17
Speaker
As we know, this podcast is produced and made by women for women. And to show our gratitude, we donate $500 on behalf of all of our guests. And of course, Fitted for Work, um it's celebrating its 20th birthday this year. And in case anyone has not gotten the gist of what Fitted for Work do, focus on employment. That brings economic security for women, so independence, purpose and connection.
00:45:41
Speaker
And... I suppose people fitted for work believe that if you are ready for work, you are ready and fitted for life. I love that. I love that sentiment. So thank you.
00:45:52
Speaker
Oh, pleasure. And if I can just leave you with one quote from Marianne Williamson, and it sort of ties in, I suppose, with my personal mantra, because I know that for some people listening, they'll be thinking, my life is not great at the moment. It's really difficult for me to find beauty in anything.
00:46:12
Speaker
Again, at a time when things were really difficult, um I read this and I have this pinned above my desk at work. And she says, something very beautiful happens to people when their world has fallen apart.
00:46:29
Speaker
A humility, ah nobility, a higher intelligence emerges at just the point when our knees hit the floor. Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah. So i think when we feel we've got nothing left in the tank, you know, find find the beauty, find the nobility.
00:46:48
Speaker
I love that. Find the beauty. That is a theme. Well, thank you, Donna. Really grateful. I can't wait for the feedback on this episode because no doubt there'll be lots.
00:46:59
Speaker
Well, thank you, for everyone. I have been your host, Amber Bonney. And until the next episode, I hope you bite big and chew like hell. Bye.