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VOY: "Phage" (s1e4)
0 Playsin 13 minutes
LOL (LOSS OF LUNGS). It's the 30th anniversary of Star Trek: Voyager's debut. Bryan & Shereese play Trek Marry Kill with "Phage," the episode that introduces us to the gnarly Vidiians, who mark the occasion by stealing Neelix's lungs! Is the episode compelling Trek or a drama set in a carnival?
The grades begin at (25:41).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and New Year's Wishes
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill. Vadions, slaps, lungs. Energize. In the darkest corners of unknown space, nothing is as it seems.
00:00:13
Speaker
Your one is safe. As long as it doesn't leak. So if you go there, beware. We've just picked up an alien ship leaving the planet. Because there may be no turning back. Any aggressive actions against this ship will be met by the deadliest force. Prepare for a journey that will take your breath away. On Star Trek Voyager, the adventure continues next Monday on UPM.
00:00:45
Speaker
Hi, I'm Hi, I'm Charisse. Welcome to Trek Mary Kill, a podcast that judges episodes of Star Trek with deadly precision, like an alien species that needs to harvest healthy opinions in order to survive. Happy New Year, Charisse. It's 2025. Happy New Year. And if you're listening to this in the future, past 2025, happy future, people. That's right. Hope it's amazing. Yeah.
00:01:10
Speaker
At the time, 2025 was one of the most futuristic sounding dates I could imagine. 20 anything really was pretty futuristic. that's Very fair. But you're watching, I don't know, Back to the Future 2 in movie theaters, and they're like 2016. Like that
Futuristic Dates and New Year Goals
00:01:27
Speaker
seems impossibly far away. And then 2016, it was like, wow, we're here. And then it's like 2025 sounds very far away. It's wild. It's totally wild. I mean, for those of us born with a 19 in the beginning, it's like, what? How can the numbers change like that? That's crazy.
00:01:45
Speaker
as the the generation just past millennials or younger millennials and then what Gen Z, they say the late 1900s, which is the exact level of roasting that we deserve. ah ah Did you make any resolutions? No, I don't. I don't really make resolutions i because I'm a business owner and a scientist. I'm so methodical with things. I make quarterly goals and then just like work towards them.
00:02:12
Speaker
so So any layoffs in the last quarter? so wow For me or for others working for me? No, that's usually how the that's usually the goals, right? We're going to increase the profit margins, but with layoffs. Well, luckily for me, I am a sole proprietor. I'm a consultant, like a single person business. So if any layoffs happen, that would be very bad. That's true. That'd be bad for everyone, meaning me.
00:02:41
Speaker
I tend not to either, just because I think I just have a goal in mind of like what I'd like to do at some point in the year, because that feels like a bigger, that feels like a more meaningful thing of like, I have 12 months to make something happen. And not only just like wait till the end, but like at some point during the year, it could happen. And then I could build up from that, improve whatever the school is, or who knows what it could lead to. So like sometimes it's as simple as like,
00:03:10
Speaker
Start a podcast. It's as simple as, you know, go on a trip. And so, like, theyre those are kind of like, oh, I like that. I try not to do fitness goals or anything. I try to. That's just like something you need to do all the time. So I see what you're saying. You like to do kind of one off things like start a podcast. That's like a whole thing. But the starting is like a one moment decision.
00:03:34
Speaker
Is that, is that more kind of where you're going with the resolutions? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I'm going to decide to go into the asteroid. It's my new year's resolution. And and then we'll see what happens inside. I'm just going to hope that I can get out. I'm just going to hope that happens.
00:03:49
Speaker
but And I'm so glad you're back to discuss Star Trek Voyager.
Celebrating Voyager's 30th Anniversary
00:03:54
Speaker
It is as terrifying as the future sounds like that we're speeding through time and we're in 2025. More terrifying to me is that Star Trek Voyager premiered 30 years ago this month. Which is wild. It does not seem like it was that long at all. I cannot abide I reject it. ah But the fun thing is that um the Star Trek cruise is celebrating the 30th anniversary of Voyager. So they've invited everyone from the Voyager cast to be kind of the special guests on the ship this year, which is really fun. I've never been on the cruise. It's like a dream of mine. This is that to your point of resolutions. This would be a resolution is for me to go on the Star Trek cruise.
00:04:34
Speaker
um But like, how fun is that? Because I guess they don't all go all the time. It's very dependent on, right you know, like when Picard season one was launching, then it was the whole TNG g or not the whole TNG, the whole Picard cast that went. And then when season three came, when it was the TNG cast, then it was the whole TNG cast that went. So I think that's just really fun. I don't do cruises because I'm not a cruise person. Yeah, it's not for everyone. So.
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah. so Even though, you know, the nautical theme of Star Trek, that would be it's fitting. It's just not for me. But ah so this month we're going to look at episodes from Voyager's first season. You might have seen in the feed that Kristen and I kind of did a wraparound. We re-upped our Caretaker review, which was like one of the first ones we did when the show launched a couple years ago. um And so, but Charisse is here to do four episodes, not in a row. I originally was just going to be like, let's just do the first four episodes. I was like, no, no, no, let's just get some through season one and a sampling and and talk about them. And this is your favorite Star Trek show. So I just thought it was fitting that and we have you here for that.
00:05:40
Speaker
It is. I'm so excited. and this is This is my favorite series. I grew up with TNG. That was the one that got me into Trek. And then Voyager came out when I was a tween or teen or something. And I just so resonated with Janeway. Like, I want to be here when I grow up. And it just really, it it and it really informed the way I'm with people and the way I look at leadership and stuff like that. So it's just got such a, they both have such a deep place in my heart. So I'm really excited about this because I feel like it's going to be a different vibe from me.
00:06:11
Speaker
complaining about discovery. This is going to be more me like, um you know, maybe, maybe still complaining because maybe they're not the best episodes of ever, but also gushing because I do love the characters and I have it's got so much nostalgia for me.
Recap and Analysis of 'Phage' Episode
00:06:24
Speaker
Phage is the fourth episode of Star Trek Voyager ever.
00:06:28
Speaker
It premiered on UPN February 6, 1995. So it's the first time Voyager got into sweeps month, which is probably an old concept now for most people. But I think it's still kind of there. I think it exists. Teleplay by Sky Dent and Brandon Braga from a story by Timothy DeHaas, directed by Vinrich Kolb.
00:06:51
Speaker
Uh, or Rick Cole, as Chaneway calls, as Kate Mulgrew calls him. And, uh, anyway, memory alpha describes it. Neelix's lungs are removed by a race that suffers from a deadly phage that is slowly destroying their population, prompting them to harvest harvest replacement organs and tissues from other species, which they try to do when they're dead.
00:07:11
Speaker
They admit, but maybe not all of them are so scrupulous. And in this case, they see a living breathing Neelix and they're like, got them. Got to get those living breathing Neelix who's foolish enough to be tramping around in their secret caves.
00:07:25
Speaker
That's right. ah The Vadians are these aliens. They showed up a bunch more times in the run of the series. I think they're one of Trek's most villainous villains. I think they're and they're interesting looking. Of course, the phage gets cured, spoiler alert, allegedly yeah by the think tank.
00:07:43
Speaker
later on in the run. well How can we trust what those people say? I believe they cured it. We just never got to see it. Here's the interesting question, though, that I always thought of, like, since I saw that episode in Think Tank, and he said that, is like, I wonder what the Vidians are like after being cured, because in this episode,
00:08:01
Speaker
they say that they've had the phage for ah for a millennia, which I didn't yeah catch like all the 10 million times I've seen this episode. I thought the phage was more recent, like maybe they've had it for 100 years, 200 years, something like that. And so their culture has gone from being artisans and you know educators to like Oregon pirates. But I think that if it's been going on for millennia, it's like this is who they are now. So even if it's cured, are they still like these kind of ruthless, like have they lost all their culture and all their humanity, for lack of a better word? And they're just like going out taking stuff from people, even though they don't need organs anymore. They're taking other things. You know what I mean?
00:08:38
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's strange to think about because it's like they put too long of a time frame on it. Way too long. because They should have all died. in Yeah, exactly. they should have It seems so ah urgent that it seems impossible that they could have Starfleet quality technology, warp drive, sensors, all that stuff. Well, they had all that before the phage.
00:09:00
Speaker
But but they shouldn't still be alive a millennia after the phase in my opinion because like all their organs shut down They shouldn't get to like reproductive age or their kids shouldn't get to exactly exactly but but also like how do they have time to Maintain this stuff and it's just all it raises a lot of weird questions that But at the same time you need to like make it very clear like no No This isn't just like something under the surface. You can't see like they're they're living and breathing it constantly So it sounds like you remember very well the first time you saw this episode I do. The Videans were so creepy. They were so This whole episode is kind of a jump scare kind of episode, um which is not my favorite. I don't love horror or scary things. So I vividly remember how creepy this episode was. It was creepy in the caves. It was creepy when Neelix got his lungs stolen. It was creepy seeing the Videans who kind of look like mummies and they're all patched together, which is really gross and creepy. and
00:09:58
Speaker
Yeah, everything about this episode was and then the the laboratory with organs everywhere was like, what the heck? It just felt like they've they've stumbled upon some kind of alien serial killer race. Yeah, it was creepy. but The Hannibal Lectors. Yeah, um that this was. Yeah, I saw it when it first ran and then I didn't see it again until I was rewatching it for this.
00:10:19
Speaker
podcast. wow That's ah which I was surprised because I thought I had done maybe a Voyager rewatch at some point. And it turns out I have not. But I remember this one. I at least remember the transporter room scene. I remember Neelik thrashing around. So there are like certain things I remember very much. And and this was like stylistically, visually, tonally.
00:10:41
Speaker
not usual Trek, you know, maybe as far as Next Generation got to something like this was Genesis, which was another Brandon Braga script. um And Deep Space Nine had like MPOC NOR. They had maybe a couple of other ones that are kind of spooky too. But ah yeah, there's something very visceral about this one.
00:11:00
Speaker
um So the research that went into it and came from Andre Bormanis, the science consultant. They were like, what could something be that would cause people to behave this way? And he was like, a phage, a bacterial phage, which is like a real thing that could actually happen. um And if you think about it, like The Last of Us is kind of talking about very similar issue, right? Even though it's mushrooms and all that.
00:11:22
Speaker
um ah Brandon Braga, the writer, mentioned a couple of topics this episode touches on. Plastic surgery and organ donation. Fans online immediately compared this episode to Spock's Brain, which was very much about transplantation, which was like a pretty new concept in American culture. And so they're like, let's do the most extreme example. Someone donated a brain. oh But the Spock's Brain comparison got this comment from Michael Piller, the showrunner. I don't know about that. I'm not sure that the episode is actually about any of that plastic surgery organ donation. It it really just seems like it's centered on the central dilemma of Neelix's lungs are missing. What do we do? but Yeah, really seem to be too much of a personal drama. It's kind of like, um, yeah.
00:12:12
Speaker
Uh, there's an episode called the loss in TNG where counselor Troy loses her ability to have like to be an empath. She loses her empathic ability, um, because of some cosmic string or something stupid. But anyways, in that episode, she's like, I can't be a counselor anymore because I can't sense what my patients are feeling. I can't counsel captain the captain because I can't sense what's going on. Right. And so the whole episode was really It was whatever stupid thing was going on in the A-plot. But the B-plot of her struggle was kind of like, how do you live with a with a sudden and unexpected disability? And that's what this episode's really about. the That episode, the Enterprise is being pulled in like a ah fragment. And it's going to get torn apart. But those two-dimensional aliens are just flowing towards it like salmon. And the Enterprise is caught up in it. And once they're free of it, then Troy realizes, oh, they're going home.
00:13:06
Speaker
Yeah, get when we when we record when we um reviewed that episode for our podcast, my co-host, Andrea, did a deep dive and discovered that there were talks about not having counselors' choice, abilities, return for the rest of the
Character Dynamics: Neelix and Kes
00:13:20
Speaker
show. Like that just be a permanent loss. And I don't think it would have made much of a difference, honestly. Because in the whole first half of the show, she was mostly just being like, I sense anger when someone's yelling. And you're like, yeah, we do too. yeah you know But um yeah, the emotional fallout of having that later on but probably be a little difficult for them to write because emotional breadth and depth was not a thing. For sure, especially with Troy. ah But in this, someone we're talking about with Faige, and sorry, that's my detour there, but Sky Dent, the other writer, was immediately drawn to Neelix as the sender of the story due to his relationship with Kess. She said, ah sorry, I don't know if it's actually a he or she, so that The writer stated they were only they were the only two on board that have any sort of defined relationship. I wanted to do a script that would affect one person and that would tear at the emotions of another so that you would see how it would affect her. I didn't want Janeway or Chakotay or any of the others to be injured because at that point nobody cared about them as much. We cared about Neelix and Kess immediately because we could see how much they cared about each other. I'm not sure about that, Skyden. What do you think, Cherise? Yeah, I think Skyden was incorrect.
00:14:28
Speaker
Or maybe Skye didn't felt that, felt a connection to about Cass and Neelix. Also entirely possible, because this is before the shows even come out, that the freelancers are being given the scripts and they're not seeing the dailies. There may they may not be there might may not be any footage. So just reading it on the page, it might come across as like, these two are together and I feel that. And then when you see the reality, it's like,
00:14:56
Speaker
ah this is this is a weird relationship he's like even though Kes is two or whatever but you know but she's older he that the age gap in the the kind of weirdness of the relationship anyway is still very much felt because Ethan Phillips is much older actor so it's like or presents as older so it's just a very strange relationship one that I never got into and thought was I didn't right away as a child like I didn't like the jealousy angle with Tom Paris I didn't like him being like so controlling and grooming her creepy yeah but then at the same time fruity quark was like the other angle that they were the tone that they were playing they're like what if quark was a nice guy and he had like good taste or at least an eccentric taste but also he had this child sex slave that he brought but That was basically Neelix. And it was like, I'm not really into this. So on the one hand, I i don't care what happens in Neelix ever. ah Even though I think even Phillips tries to imbue him with like the sense of like, he's a good guy. He's not that bad. Fine. Fair enough.
00:16:03
Speaker
But that relationship I never really bought. so the fact and And the idea that it's centered in this episode doesn't actually really weigh doesn't actually hold a lot of water for me either. It's like it's there. But I'll talk about more about what this actually kind of winds up being later on, which I thought was a little strange of a choice there.
00:16:22
Speaker
um some production notes before getting to the grades. The original story for the idea, which was pitched by Timothy DeHaas, was that Lieutenant Paris had his heart blown out by something. So the doctor equipped him with the holographic replacement. We did that with Captain Picard. Right. Well, they they were more like, that's an interesting idea, except he can't leave the he can't leave sick base. So the whole episode is set there. So that's why they then had to add there was another idea that they were developing about the Vadians, which I'll talk about right now. Michael Piller and Jerry Taylor were trying to think of a new heavy, a new bad guy, interesting, and they came across this race that harvests organs. They were thinking along the lines of Mayan culture and can and the cannibalism in there and the reasoning behind all that. And then Brandon Braga kind of plussed that idea, ah wondering about what what the Europeans might've been like had the Bubonic plague not been eradicated. And I gotta say,
00:17:19
Speaker
Brandon Braga, probably not too much different from how European cultures are today. Hi-yo! Pretty cruel to each other and just Western cultures. Mainly, we're pretty awful to each
Vidians' Moral Complexity and Horror Elements
00:17:31
Speaker
other. Anyway. I mean, there'd be less. There'd be a lot less people. Sure. That's fair. so ah But so I guess it's kind of like a kismet that they were developing this and they were like, what if we added them together? Then it gave more urgency. It's not just someone sitting around moping in sickbay because they have a holographic body part. I mean, the episode still does that, but there's also the juice of like, somebody took them. We need to get them back, you know? and Why did they take them and who are they and who does this and how did they do it? Yeah.
00:17:58
Speaker
yep So that's drama. that's why I thought those were all good questions. I was very curious too. I was like, what happened? Wait, how'd they do that? like I had all the same questions and I thought that was a nice that was a nice way to take us on the journey as viewers without um doing like that moral of the story shove it down our throat. It was like, these are reasonable questions that reasonable people would ask in this scenario you know versus them sitting around at a conference table being like, this is sad, isn't it? Yeah, it is really sad like you know or something that it's like,
00:18:26
Speaker
Need that to be it part of exposition ah The desperation of the vedians attracted the producers Jerry Taylor said the idea of a race that does really unspeakably horrible things But does them simply because they're trying to survive we thought that was a very complex kind of agenda If you start with a premise like that it's impossible to make them completely evil because their motivation is completely understandable if anything it's more scary and If you realize that underneath the grotesque, deformed body, there's someone who was once young, strong, and beautiful. Michael Piller said, i like the idea of an alien culture who are civilized people
00:18:59
Speaker
who are forced to do uncivized things in order to survive And Brandon Braga was also eager to utilize the idea of the organ harvesting aliens. You know, if people don't realize this, they don't know this. Brandon Braga loves gore and horror. Like in, outside of his Star Trek world, he's like, yeah, that's, I, I really like this, this gnarly stuff. Um, so he said, much Right. ah That was a great concept for an alien species. Very rarely do you stumble on something that has real resonance. I don't know why they keep saying resonance. I guess they're just like, we like the idea that we came up with these monsters that had like human justifications for their actions. They usually don't. Usually they don't. They're just kind of like doing things for no good reason. But this one was like, oh, they're doing bad things. Exactly what they just said. They're doing bad things for an understandable reason. So you're like, oh, they're not just like the Ferengi and it's greed. or
00:19:50
Speaker
the Klingons and it's it it's war you know it's like oh no they're actually trying to survive okay but still what they're doing is terrible yep uh so when they merged the two ideas brandon braga changed it from a heart to the lungs because he thought the heart was quote to cornball well in an episode about a love story yes i would agree yeah the aliens were originally known as the phages and then their collective name was that's funny because star trek has done that before where they've where they've done, like, the Saurians, they're like dinosaurs. You know, they've done that before, where they they name it. And then then the name was changed to the Vafarans. But apparently, and that was in the shooting script. and But apparently, people kept pronouncing it differently every time they said it. So,
00:20:40
Speaker
They changed the name in post to Vadian and you can see the actor, the guy who plays Dereth, when he says we're the Vadians, he's saying Vafrins and they looped it over. You can read his lips and see that he's saying the original line. I thought that was interesting.
00:20:59
Speaker
ah Vinrich Cole directed this episode straight after having directed ah the pilot Caretaker and immediately before preparing to direct Eye of the Needle, which is another episode we'll be doing here. ah But this episode of Voyager was one of his favorite episodes of any Star Trek series he had directed as he thought the storyline quote, takes aliens off that pedestal of being weird and gives them some humanity.
00:21:23
Speaker
Unquote. And given their comments about each other and this episode, I guess that Kate Mulgrew and Vinrich Cole romance had started heating up like in caretaker and was blossoming here. Sometimes it's just like that. Love at first sight. That's right. That's right.
00:21:39
Speaker
Well, a lot of good lingering closeups on her in this one. You tell he was, he was. Well, in the episode, are sorry, in the, not in the episode in the podcast, Delta flyers, which is a podcast hosted by Harry and Tom from this show from Voyager, the actors who played Harry and Tom, they talk about that in their pilot episode. I think they talk about this romance and about how there were all these lingering closeups on Kate Mulgrew and the rest of the crew was like, hello.
00:22:02
Speaker
Hello? Like the rest of the cast was standing there like the camera would like ah glance on them and then turn back and it would be like these angles and like the light would be soft and beautiful and then the light would be like all harsh and burning and everyone else is sweating but the camera's just zooming slowly in and out around Kate and the crew and they were like, okay.
00:22:22
Speaker
You know what? She deserves it. So fun. I read when people are in love that they do stuff like that and if they're in charge of the cameras, they do stuff like that. So I don't know. yeah ah The asteroid that housed the funhouse mirrors, there's a sequence where a Voyager chases the Vadian ship into a large ah large asteroid which inside has a funhouse mirror set up in there. ah It was a reuse of one of the asteroids where the Enterprise ah gets trapped inside in the Pegasus.
00:22:52
Speaker
If anyone remembers that episode, that's one with Terry O'Quinn from Lost, the the phase cloak. um So that's the same asteroid. ah The Funhouse Mirror sequence was entirely done entirely by CG, which I figure everyone realizes was still pretty new for 1994 and 1995.
00:23:10
Speaker
in general, but certainly for TV as well to have like a fully CG sequence. ah But then the visual effects producer, Dan Curry, didn't like the way the Voyager cd CG model looked. I'm not sure if it was just in the sequence or just at the time they were still refining it. So they actually, for this sequence, imposed the studio superimposed the studio model on there. that That notes mainly for me. I'm like, that's the geeky stuff I like to hear. And then last two notes.
00:23:38
Speaker
the i Sorry, I'm so staggered by this. This episode achieved a dealset rating of 8.5 billion homes and a 12% share. I feel like the biggest hit on TV right now with those ratings. They're just nuts to think about how many people were watching Voyager from the outset, just like Enterprise from the outset, and then just I thought there was going to be a thousand in there. Nope. Just 350. So you can get that for under 500. That's good to know. I just learned that the flute from inner light sold for like $235,000 in 2021. I was like, Oh my goodness. But I get it though. It's a very emotional piece on like the Vidyan head mask. And the one thing I will say as a microbiologist about the term phage, bacterial phage is a thing.
00:24:34
Speaker
But we only use the the word phage for a bacteria that affects plant life. So we wouldn't use that word for humans, we would say virus, we would say bacteria. Well, obviously a virus and bacteria are different, but we would say a bacterial infection. um That being said, phage is a really cool word. And yeah I don't know if since I'm a microbiologist, I'm not sure about non-micro people. I don't know if most people have heard that word or they know that word is something infectious. But in either case, it's a cool word. It's a cool term. And when they describe it, you're like, oh, yep, yep, that totally tracks. And I love it when they do that, when they come up with words, whether it's real or
00:25:13
Speaker
you know, not or used properly or not. But the word or the phrase fits perfectly in world, like in universe, you're just like, that is absolutely what that's called. And I completely believe that I love it when they do that. Yeah, they have more than an affliction. It's a phage. Exactly. And you're like, Ooh, that sounds permanent. Yeah, yeah, that's right. All right, let's get into the grades. Let's start with great scenes. Charisse, how many do you have? I have one. Okay.
00:25:40
Speaker
So the I put the heart to heart between Kess and the doctor when he's complaining about kind of having no support and having no help. And she tells him that he's more than a program, which is something that happens a lot in the show where she's like, you're more than just a program. You're more than a computer. You're a person. And he's like, no, I'm not. I'm a program. um But I really love that scene. And I love their relationship as well when it's not weird and creepy and sexual tension. I just like this part where she's supportive of him. And he's like,
00:26:07
Speaker
his guards kind of let down. He's not being a jerk for a change. He's just being kind of, here's what I'm feeling. I'm feeling really frustrated. And here's why I like that. Cause normally we just see him being really gritty and salty, especially in the earlier seasons and just annoying. But here we kind of find out why he's so annoying because he feels overwhelmed, because he feels stressed, because he feels scared. And that, uh, cast is there to kind of be moral support. I like that.
00:26:32
Speaker
I think this was the first episode while watching the show. Well, it's pretty early. It's only the fourth episode of this is the first time I was not annoyed by the doctor because I think he's za this say he's good in this episode. It's interesting that you bring up that scene because I hang that scene as like, this is a bad scene, which is not me.
00:26:54
Speaker
dismissing or criticizing your pick. Great. it's it It's a fine scene in isolation. But if this episode's supposed to be about Neelix and Kes's relationship being affected by this thing, I thought it was very strange that we spend the scene of Kes basically gassing up the doctor. And like, it suddenly becomes about her supporting a man who's not even real. And it's like, we we don't need to care about the doctor's feelings. He's not a person. He's not there as he he himself says. And so I just thought it was a very strange thing that Kess, who wouldn't leave Neelix aside, ah what is she doing to demonstrate that she would make a good nurse? It's just that she's complimentary of the doctor. And that's what he where he gets the idea. So I thought it was strange. Like the episode passes the Bechdel test because Jadeway and Torres talk to each other. about the technology, about the Vadim device that they capture. And so it technically passes. But in terms of like, what is this episode about? It is like the idea that Kess is either in support of Neelix, which is fine. But then she's in support of the doctor that was like, that's a bridge too far for me about where they're going emotionally. Well, Kes is in support of everyone and that was setting up future storylines with the two of them. When they did try to do the heart to heart between Kes and Neelix, it was a disaster, right? Because Neelix was like, I'm so jealous of Tom Pears. He's waiting for me to die so he can hook up with you. And you're like, ugh. So when they did have their quote unquote heart to heart moment, it there was nothing about it that was
00:28:21
Speaker
sweet, lovely, warm, nothing. But if she's committed to him, she just goes back. And then because he recognizes that he was angry and he's just laying there, then they get to have a different scene. But instead, it's just more scenes with the doctor and Neelix and then Kess and the doctor. And they don't actually get that until the end where she says, I want to donate my lung and I'm going to do it.
00:28:43
Speaker
and all that stuff. So I don't know, it just was, it stuck out to me as like, what is this episode about? I'm not really feeling what this emotion is, but it is still in an isolation, a really nice scene between those two characters. And I think it's the first time we like get Kes having any sense of like, what does she think about something that's not on plot? Like she just has a yeah general thought. Yeah. But she's still saying like, you're an amazing man, you know? And it's just like, eh,
00:29:11
Speaker
I was like, yeah um I had three great scenes. So the doctor gets to give gets the idea to give Neelix holographic lungs. And Tom Parris says, but a hologram is just a projection of light held in magnetic containment field. There's no real matter involved. Slap. And then when Parris goes to slap back the doctor, he first of all gives a very wimpy slap back. But then his hand goes through it because the doctor's changed. Yeah, I thought he was going to punch him.
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. He looked like he was getting ready. He's like, Oh, I'm going to enjoy this, but they changed it to a slap. Um, yeah, I just, so in what you were saying about the Kess doctor scene, like what happens here is the doctor is observing Paris replicating something to start the sequence. And that's where it gets the idea of like replicator. Maybe we could replicate his lungs.
00:30:01
Speaker
Like that kind of thing. But he doesn't say it like that. Just like we see what's happening. And he could have just watched Kest tending to Neelix and gotten the idea. It didn't know what I mean. Like we just saw an example of the script being written in a way that observation led leads to decision. Anyway, I like that sequence. It was a good sequence for the doctor where he's not just being an asshole to people. We see him like thinking something. Being a genius.
00:30:26
Speaker
Yep, I put Neelix's panic attack in the hollow lung as um he gets put in an iron lung, people. if people So as his lungs are taken away, and the doctor devises this idea of holographic lungs. Anyway, ah but Neelix freaks out and has a panic attack. I think and both actors were committed, the doctor like trying not trying to calm him down, but not but recognizing I need to show some bedside manner here. This is before Robert Picardo had adjusted the the character. Well, I mean, it's a fourth episode.
00:30:55
Speaker
ah Right. Exactly. and ah And it works. I think this is like the perfect, like the platonic ideal of this version of The Doctor. And obviously the character itself has like a ah crash, right? There's like a software crash. So it's like actually reasons for his evolution as time goes on. um So I thought that was nice scene. And then I put it here, but maybe if you, why didn't you is my question. Janeway confronts the two Vadians in the transporter room.
00:31:22
Speaker
and And then we get the whole background of the Vadians. We get K-Mul Gru holding back real tears because she's so emotionally invested in the scene. I admit that Janeway really is going for it when she's lamenting what she can and cannot do in this situation. yeah But ah I still thought it was a great scene because it was kind of unique in terms of the way they confront the an alien race. It's not even something that Kirk or Spock would do. It just felt a little different. But why didn't you put as a great? So I put both of those scenes. Neelix freaking out and Janeway yelling at the Vadians. I put them down under the Anton Caridian Award and the Shatner. So I just put them. okay I did. You just put the scenes but scenes. Yeah, I put the scenes later on. Like, that's why those those were in those categories. But I agree that those are really good. And that scene
00:32:12
Speaker
You're right, where she's really emotional is not something you would get from any other captain, even from Picard. Like, if he was like, wow, this is a very difficult situation, but you could see her just almost in tears because she's like... And and that line that line she says where she's like, now you put me in the same position you were in, where I have to decide should I murder someone or should it like or you get to walk around with my crewman's lungs, but we can't take him back out because I feel like, you know, it's Janeway, she would have taken him back out if she could.
00:32:38
Speaker
She would have been like, sorry, but even five Janeway should have sure she would have we'll figure it out. Give me those back. Bye. Um, but because they were like, yeah, even if you take them out, they're not going to work. And she's like, dang it. You know, so now now she does have a heart.
00:32:52
Speaker
ah so yeah Yep. Best trick tropes. um I have so many. One is Neelix cooking over open flames. That is such a Voyager thing. It's just like fire everywhere and colorful foods. And you're just like, how has the ship not burned down yet? And somehow it doesn't. Maybe it's got like fire retardant bulkheads. that Nothing's flammable around there because it's always these giant open flames that for me, who's not somebody who cooks a lot, those are terrifying.
00:33:24
Speaker
To me, that's like, you're you're just trying to you're trying to kill somebody. um So I have that one. And then I have... It's a controlled environment. This is the same gripe that that Kristen and I have with Strange New Worlds of like, it's a spaceship. You should not have open flames. And it's a spaceship. You should not need open flames. Surely there's a different kind of feeding technology. That's not like a big fire.
00:33:48
Speaker
in this like and there's smoke everywhere and i like yeah we have electric stoves now did we have that in the 90s though yes okay i think so yeah i'm trying to remember i'm like did we have i don't know but but yeah the open flames just it just cracks me up because it just feels so incongruous with like space travel i guess that's what the that's what the intention is but it's like it's a one It's a one episode gag. It's otherwise it's just like every time you go there it's gonna be this the bear is happening in the starship like it's the back of it's a kitchen in a restaurant like what is this but if anyone doesn't know what we're talking about Neelix cannibalizes Janeway the captain's private dining room to create the galley this is the episode that establishes Voyager's galley which would
00:34:36
Speaker
exist until the very end. um And and yeah, it's ridiculous because and what are what a gigantic personal like dining room, by the way, like if your dining room is big enough for the whole crew, I think the dining room is too big. Oh, it's just the it's the wall. It's the space from the wall where he serves to the wall where she enters. It's that little alcove. It's not the whole way. No, but if you see the galley later on and in the episodes, it's huge. Like they're seating all the way around that like little open fire area.
00:35:07
Speaker
Well, that just tells me he, he expands the the franchise. Felix's place is expanding. Yeah. Okay. So the other one, another good Trek trope is beam directly to sick bay. So many times in TNG, I was like, why don't they beam directly to sick bay? Why are they like, bring the gurney? No, don't bring the gurney. Just beam them there. Like we don't have time to be like trying to get into a turbo lift. So i I like when they do that because it seems like a sensible thing you would do in an emergency with someone who is like,
00:35:37
Speaker
fading fast. I put the doctor saves the day with holographic lungs, because in this is a Voyager trope, the doctor can basically do literally anything like he's brilliant, he give him enough time, he will figure it out, which I actually love. And that's part of his evolution as a character as well. Then he says, I'm a doctor, not a decorator. And that's our you know, best trek trope. Yep. I'm a doctor, not a blank. Yep.
00:36:00
Speaker
And then the dampening field. This is a very Voyager-specific trope. They do it in other shows, but they do it like every other episode in Voyager, where there's a dampening field siphoning off all the power. And I always like that because that's a constraint that causes them to be resourceful that I think makes sense. This makes more sense to me than the, we can't beam through shields, except for sometimes we can. Like, that whole thing where it's like, it's just, it's an ionic storm, we can't beam through. Oh, well, we can in the middle of the storm. well we Like, all that seems very... dependent on what story we're trying to tell, whether or not we're going to stick with that rule. But this one's the dampening field. They always stick with it. Like the dampening field, we don't have power. What are we going to do? How are we going to survive or how are we going to shut off the dampening field or where is it coming from? Or it's some enemy ship that's trying to get us. like So I like that one. And also that goes all the way back to TOS. Enterprise would run into dampening fields of some kind. So good, good trick trip. Mine, you already mentioned the Doctor one.
00:36:59
Speaker
reusing sets. That's a putting that here. I'd recognize that corridor behind the holographic wall from which the the Dean emerges creepily. ah That's been a Jeffrey's tube. It was the part of quote of Chronos where Picard was attacked. Remember that episode? I think it was since the father. um It was also used in caretaker. It was the under like the secret passageway when they were getting into the caretaker's guts. So it's been used, and I like them reusing sets, even though that was like the least interesting use. They had changed it to look very different from how it usually looks. Tuvok being good at his job. ah I mentioned this when we did Future's End last year, but like you know good with the phaser. but One shot, you know what I mean? He's not like a stormtrooper out there. He's able to hit that Vadim pretty squarely on the first shot. I don't like that he allows Captain Janeway to go on this landing party mission, which is one of my worst trek tropes away team. But he is also like, I know what you're planning to do, Janeway. I know your psychological profile. So Tuvok being good at his job is ah is a best trek trope. I appreciate it. and And then I'm putting this here.
00:38:15
Speaker
It's like a, you know, when Star Trek does a metaphor, it's like striking a match in a gas filled room or whatever. And this one, it' she goes, it's like trying to move through a hall of mirrors. You never know when you're going to walk into the glass. Now, a lot of these in this episode of like.
00:38:31
Speaker
especially when two bucks like I know what you're planning to do captain it's like everyone knows what she's planning to do she's gonna take the ship into the asteroid it's very obvious uh so you're not making a big assumption and here they're like looking at a room of mirrors and she says it's like moving through all the mirrors. and It's like, yes, we know, but I still appreciate when Star Trek does it, ah especially when it's early in the run. And you could tell the actors feel like I'm getting to do this stuff for the first time. And probably by season six or whatever,
00:39:04
Speaker
we could go in and Torres is saying these lines and she's saying them so like, it's like when you have to punch someone to death. like she's just They're just trying to get it out. They're so sick of making these metaphors, but I appreciate it here. Where's Trek Tropes?
00:39:21
Speaker
Um, I have like two and a half. The first one is the three person away team. I just think just pointless. Like three people, I get that they have a a smaller crew compliment than other ships, but maybe send more than more than three people. And actually what I put was.
00:39:40
Speaker
why are we sending people anyways why don't we send a probe but or something that can do the long-range scan because they've got these little tricorders but lotta whip something up that we can beam into the caves that can like scan to make sure it's safe before our three-person away team shows up and then all splits up so This is tricky because I'm like, but while I was watching this, I'm like, if this were real at all, I would just be OK, we can't beam them up. Let's send them in a shuttle because the shuttle will have a line of sight that they can beam back into the shuttle immediately if there's any trouble. But like when you also want to bring something because you want to start mining right away, I mean, like there's no sense that they're going to start mining right away. And it's just like,
00:40:23
Speaker
Harry, Kim, Chakotay, and Neelix as your away team. It's like, if Neelix was like, you're going to need my hands. Like I can grab. I'm the who can find the other route. I mean, dilithium. Yeah. ah that Yours is great. i what What you said was what I was thinking too of like, this seems, why are they, they've scanned and hit it. Don't you just want to start mining right away? Or just like demon out. Do we need to find yeah it directly with our phasers? Can't we find it with the ship's computers? Wouldn't that be more accurate?
00:40:54
Speaker
Yeah, so the three person away teams. And then the like the point two is when Jane way goes back um to the planet and she's like, that's it, I'm going back and I need a full security compliment. So it's a four person away team. And it's like, I just don't think this was well thought through.
00:41:12
Speaker
I know they didn't want to spend any time on this, but like the idea that she would she's watching a crewman crew member just had their lungs removed by ah who knows what we don't know. Yeah. And she's like, I'm going back down to where that person was. And I'm gonna get those lungs back myself. Get out girl, if you don't sit down on the bridge, you're not going down there.
00:41:35
Speaker
Yeah, I can understand Chakotay not caring at this point, right? Even though he's the first officer, he's still the Maquis. You know what I mean? Like it's still too early for him to be super protected. It might be like, well, if you don't come back, I get to be captain. But this is, yeah, exactly. But like Harry Kim, like they completely dropped his character. He's like, ma'am, we can't let you go on the away mission. You might lose your lungs. And then he gets put in line or something. Yeah.
00:41:58
Speaker
ah just it was like a strange it's it just calls attention to itself anyway yeah that's the point that's the point two which is that's the point five which is dumb and then the other worst trek trope which is a Voyager specific one is jealous Neelix and I wrote in my notes insert gagging noise here like all of that everything that you said before about their weird relationship always struck me as off even as a kid but I couldn't put my finger on why and now as an adult I'm like oh my gosh you know I'm like horrified but as a kid I was just like I don't know they just make me feel weird you know like something about this couple, it just makes me feel weird. yeah um Well, I'm just gonna, my worst Trek trope with that is Neelix. Not jealous Neelix, just the character of Neelix is the worst Trek trope. It's because the actor's charm is the only reason you're able to stand him as a presence at all. But it's, I just don't like the character and
00:42:53
Speaker
well just whatever he's doing is like the most obvious thing that a character would be doing and the only way that we know he's an alien is by how 90s he looks how crazy alien 90s he looks but also even though he does try to make him yeah he makes him try to move and sound differently whenever he can so i do notice that he does try to make him seem alien sometimes but i it's so weird it's so like It's so weird. He's just so the character is so weird and annoying and like bad and just just all these things. Any other restrictions? No, that's it. I like me. I like him at the end. I really can't stand him in this whole entire first season um and maybe not. I forgot he only had one lung, but apparently the show never did. I totally forgot he only had one lung.
00:43:40
Speaker
Um, the yeah, I do they because the actor is very good. And they do change the character quite a bit. Neelix and the doctor are the two characters they change the most to make them palatable. Because in this first season, both of them, you're just like, I could just do without either of these characters and the show would be good. So yeah, what are your what are your worst check tropes?
00:43:59
Speaker
So Neelix, like I said, but also, come on Voyager crew. This is something Kristen and I are like, it's Janeway and Tuvok are the only competent officers on the ship, literally. And the rest of them are like, it's the Keystone Cops most of the time. They're just, it's a mess. But nobody told Janeway that Neelix was doing heavy construction.
00:44:21
Speaker
She's like totally so baffled. She's, where did this cute galley come from? Who authorized this? and It's like, he was going through walls ripping the EPS conduits. He's saying himself, no one bothered to report this. Come on, Voyager. Which is funny, because later on, I forget why this happened, but I remember there was this episode later on where Seven of Nine is like, there's a 0.25 power drain coming from like deck three, section two, or whatever, and you're like, who's even, who's monitoring? How do you even know that? Why would you monitor that? Yes, until seven comes aboard, it's Janeway and Tuvok. And then when seven comes aboard, it's like, Janeway's like, I've been, yeah, it's seven, exactly. ah or She really put it into context how lax even Janeway was. but ah
00:45:09
Speaker
Futurizing our basic language. I already mentioned captain going on the way mission, but futurizing our basic language. Neelix says Paris is swooping in on Kess like a reptilian vulture. So a vulture? A vulture. Like, I don't like when Star Trek does it. I've never been a fan of it. I understand. Like Ferengi Rami? Yeah, or like, yeah. Why can't you call it a different name? Like, come up with a Ferengi word where we could just guess that that's probably a game.
00:45:36
Speaker
ah Yeah, like for rangi ah exactly. does it all the time, but at least in the pilot of Deep Space Nine, he says Ralod and Wildraw. I'm like, okay, that's, I get it. That is a maybe a card game or something. That's something. But like very often, it's just like it's just like alien adjective. Cling-off chatters. And you're is that different from human?
00:46:06
Speaker
It's more violent okay like it made sense with Wizards chess with Harry Potter, but that's like still those are still humans on earth You know like I totally agree with you alien word human word like that combos It's not as good as they could just make up a word like literally any word lazy. We would be like so lazy it I just don't like how lazy so it just I did catch that and we in our last episode of of Discovery that we reviewed when they said Ferengi, Rabi, and I was like, huh? Is that different from regular Rabi? Like, how is that different? i and Now I want to know because it sounds a lot like Rabi. Or like I was telling, um i was I had this video that was like a trivia, TNG trivia video that I put out on social media. And one of the questions was like, what instrument does Captain Picard play?
00:46:51
Speaker
Right. And it was like guitar, piano, trombone and flute. And trombone was supposed to be like the trick question of people, you know, confuse him with Riker. Why did I have like hundreds of angry nerds being like, it's not a flute. It's a Mexican flute. That's totally different. And I was like, it's not it's not flute in the name. Is it is it now a piano? Because we put recipe in front of it. Like, I don't understand. And I feel like that's this like that. That does not make sense to me, but apparently it makes perfect sense to others. OK.
00:47:21
Speaker
Right. It's like, a i my I prefer a McDonald's hamburger. I prefer a hamburger. Those are different things. yes No, they're like, aren't they in the same family? Yeah.
00:47:36
Speaker
a Voyager comes upon a rogue planetoid, which later gets called a moon in one of the supplemental captain's logs, which is, I didn't put any of the captain's logs, which I could have. but it Neither good nor bad in this episode. They're they're fine. ah But Voyager comes upon a rogue planetoid and the Vadians then warp off to a large asteroid, which I guess is better than a nebula. But I guess my point, the the worst trek trope is kind of losing track of what you're calling things and also you risk running confusion because the planet's weight kind of looks like the asteroid so it's like if you're not paying full attention which a lot of people watching network tv in the 90s where you were run the risk of like where are they now what's going on and that's obviously there's a chase involved and i get all that and you can kind of actually see what's going on the vedians have uh you know
00:48:26
Speaker
false planets, false asteroids are hiding out. They're trying to ambush people to steal their organs. Like, does that make sense? um But I still thought it was a little samey samey in a weird way. that wast And especially when they called the planetoid a moon, which I think sometimes moons are classified as that, but it's just like, did they have it as an i as a moon first? And then it got changed and they forgot to control F, control V. You know what? You sometimes happens you had this a similar complaint with the Discovery episode of the library.
00:48:55
Speaker
where you were like, it's a gallery, a vault, a bank, a library. Like, those are all completely different things. But it's full of books. So let's go with library.
00:49:07
Speaker
I'm being consistent you are consistent. Absolutely. That's why I'm pointing it out. Like, yes, this is a thing that bothers you when they don't know what they're talking about. Or it's a simple, you know, it's it's somebody to to proofread and go through and be like, hey, let's just make these all moon or whatever.
00:49:21
Speaker
So there's a supercut of this online and especially Voyager, but like some kind of, so some kind of power drain. And then Torres says with the dampening field. And then literally ah two lines later, Kim says some kind of dampening field. I mean, it's a power drain. It's not Torres's job to report.
00:49:39
Speaker
like what Like describe it beyond that. Captain, what's wheres you engineering, what's going on? There's a power drain somewhere. That's it. But the some kind of is a trek trope. I'm putting as a worst in this one because it happens so close together. You have a lot of people describing it, at some kind of. There's a.
00:49:58
Speaker
unusually powerful force field kind of this vague terminology that it's kind of like the the rectilian vulture where there's like adjective use here that we don't need it's just like what what are we gaining it's an extra word it's just like ticking up sound i don't need it uh and and That's a Voyager one. This is a Star Trek one that I'm going to close on. I already mentioned this that the episode passed the Bechdel test. I already complained about Cass spending more time talking about how amazing the doctor is. But it's also like, why does Chakotay get the idea to fire the phaser at low intensity after Janeway dismissed it? Why is Harry Kim telling the captain she's right when she's like, this wall is warm? There's some there's just gender issues with Star Trek, sex, politics, whatever. And, you know, Star Trek's treatment towards women is
00:50:44
Speaker
ify at best until we literally get to start Trek discovery. and ah And so I just, I'm calling it out here because those are the things that stuck out to me now 30 years later, going back and rewatching the show and ah respecting the heck out of Kate Mulgrew, knowing where the character of Janeway goes. right So then seeing the early going of everyone trying to figure things out of like, she's really kind of just sitting back and letting people do stuff. She's not really having a lot of ideas.
00:51:11
Speaker
She's, you know, that's why maybe that's why Vinrich Kolb is giving her these hero shots, because the script is not. Yeah, except until the transporter room when she's confronting these Yeah, which is actually which mirrors what was going on in real life, because the original actress who was going to play Janeway quit after filming the pilot.
00:51:28
Speaker
Um, it like already, this is some behind the scenes stuff about the show is that before they were worried about having a female co, like captain, a female main star of the show. Cause they were like, I don't know. Can women handle that responsibility? It might be too hard for their fragile little brains. And then they hire this woman and then this woman quits and they go, yep, we were right all along. A woman couldn't possibly handle this responsibility.
00:51:49
Speaker
So when they hired Kate Milgrew, they did not allow her to have any say about her character, what her character would or wouldn't do, have any suggestions about lines, about plot lines, about storylines, like all leading characters on every Star Trek show has had the ability to have, right? I mean, I guess there was only two shows before, well, three counting DS9, but all three of those shows, the male leads had a lot of say about who has, you know, the roles and even changing lines, even changing what characters are doing. Like they had a lot of say and Kate Mulgrew had none. They didn't allow her to have input until season three. So it was quite a while before they were like they trusted her enough to for her to be able to speak her voice. So it makes sense that that's mirrored in the scripts because they're like, I don't know if we don't have the other characters co-signing for you, you might make ah another terrible decision or something. I don't know. Just some really weird. It's bullshit. Yeah, it's just bullshit.
00:52:41
Speaker
really weird star trek brain damage. Good call. It does seem like brain damage. The more you observe it, it's like, what is wrong with this person? what is How could you think these things? What's wrong with your brain? Something's wrong. Something broke.
00:52:58
Speaker
most cosplayable character or moment. Easy for me, Kess. I love Kess's little outfit, except for her, her awful wig, which I just want to snatch off her head because I have this thing against really bad wigs. And I really, the wig is really hate the wig. It's way awful. But the funny thing is, I don't remember it being bad at all back in the 90s, because, you know, are also like coming out of the 80s and 90s, big hair was a thing. So the big hair I didn't even notice. But as an adult, like on the rewatches, I hate the wig so much. I just want to snatch it off and burn it.
00:53:28
Speaker
But doesn't the wig, her hair, the wig or whatever actually does get better as the show goes on? I think maybe they don't use the wig. I think maybe they start yeah she just they just cut her hair short moving forward. I think that's what happens. And then it's sort and then it looks better like a normal person's head. Yeah. exactly And then when she comes back and she's got the long hair, she looks good then too. Yeah, which long hair might've also been a wig, but that was a beautiful wig if it was. It probably was a wig or extensions and it was beautiful. But yeah, the wig is terrible, but the cute little dresses she always wears, I love her cute little like, they're so 90s, even though they're future, like they're not future. And I always find that really fascinating when the costume artists are envisioning like hundreds of years from now, but they can only have current fashions to pull from. I always find that super fascinating. Did you, who was yours?
00:54:18
Speaker
it's the Vadians. I mean, the Vadians are basically garbage pail kids, you know, you can they are just like, or or I think, as you said, they're mummies. So yeah they they look great. Now it's time for the line must be drawn. Yeah, great lines. Doctor, I just have a bunch of doctor lines. Oh, I don't have, I don't have any doctor lines. So I have three. And the first is when, well, I guess this is kind of the doctor, the doctor was like, I don't have time to explain this to you, Kes. And Kes was like, then make the time. I actually like that because you know Again, it was like a it it was a woman standing in her power and asking for clarification, which was super important in this case where like her boyfriend's about to be experimented on. and so I like that line because Kes also is very soft a lot of times and doesn't really have a backbone. so i like I like that line. and I like that she's like, you're a hologram. I am not intimidated by you. That's the main thing. I will be acting at you right now. That's right. And by the way, folks, that's how you should talk to your doctors if they're not being if they're withholding information and you're creating uncertainty. Then make the time. You have every right to demand so demand that they tell you what's going on. Yeah, that's their That's totally their job. You need to know what's going on. Then the other line I love was from Neelix, where he said, you know if I'm going to be here for a long time, I guess it's the time to tell you, your ceiling is hideous.
00:55:37
Speaker
I just was like, oh, that's such a Neelix line because he probably was like this character was probably literally thinking this every single time he's ever walked into sickbay. Just was like, ah I'm far too polite to say it. So I like that line. And then the last one was, um when Janeway says to Tuvok, one of these days, I'm gonna surprise you Tuvok, but not today. Take us in. It was like, yeah, we we know it's you weren't no one's gonna be surprised today. To your point, we all know what Janeway is gonna do. We saw what she did with the caretaker's array. We're all going in. We know that.
00:56:06
Speaker
So those are my three. ah This is Brandon Braga's favorite line. His lungs have been removed. and And that's why Star Trek's great because you get to write lines like that. So the doctor said that. Which was actually really surprising. I remember that part of the episode because you're like, why is he freaking out on the ground? Like we thought maybe he was like just zapped or, you know, electrified or something. yeah And then it's like, oh, no, he has no lungs. You're like, I'm sorry, what?
00:56:32
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's a good line. So to the ceiling line, the doctor is saying, I didn't design the room. I just work here. Right. I'm a doctor, not a decorator. Exactly. And then that's the next line I have. And then the doctor, don't worry, I'm not going to kiss you. I'm only adjusting the restraint.
00:56:51
Speaker
ah He's so close. He leans in. You know, Vinrich Kolb, if you notice, it's very hard for TV directors to have they're like a signature look. And you could say also that because TV in the old days, they were not widescreen. It was all that box that TV that' why said like movies are sight and sound, but like that's you can convey on a giant movie screen, you know, a two page scene in TV can be Conveyed with the look but in TV that's why you have a lot of just talking heads because it's just but he is like a master at least in terms of Star Trek of these extreme almost extreme close-ups on people's faces So it's like one of his strengths like Neelix the way he was shot was really interesting because you notice you don't see his mouth a lot of the time he's using the that restraint to cover it and So just trying to find interesting angles and then the fact that the doctor and Neelix are so close to each other, ah you know, he's like leaning over him. ah It's like perfect for Kolb's style, actually, to sell the jokes, but also to like sell the claustrophobia, to sell the urgency. So um those are the ones I had. whether this a be Would this be a fun Hollow novel to play out? I put not for Neelix. Yeah, I don't. I would not play this. I think this whole episode is so creepy and depressing. I wouldn't play it.
00:58:11
Speaker
Yeah, I don't want to look at the vedians. I don't want to be Neelix. I don't want to be anyway. I don't want to smell them. They can't smell good, the vedians. No, not with all these. They're rotting flesh. Yeah, gross. Yeah, disparate body parts. Yeah. Although they do conform, right? They can do the, the amino suppression or like adjust it. So maybe there's, there's not a lot of rejection going on there, but still you can see on their faces, like there's definitely some pus going on there.
00:58:38
Speaker
ah So then the Anton Kritian Award for Best Performance. You had a scene. Yes. Well, you know, it was Janeway as the best performance. And the scene was when she was talking to the Vadians in the transporter room. um I had the Dr. Robert Ricardo as the best performance. Oh, interesting. Why is that? He had a lot to do. And this was the best. This was like the loosening of cranky toothache.
00:59:05
Speaker
total bitch to everyone doctor that we had seen up until this point, still pretty early. And you can see him like trying to do a bedside manner. You can see him having an idea.
00:59:18
Speaker
His technobabble is pretty normal from what we know it's going to get later on with nanoproves and blah, blah, blah and all that stuff. But I don't know. I thought it was like ah actually kind of a nuanced performance. And he has a lot of like medical jargon, technical jargon to go through. He has the funny slap with Tom Paris. So he he has a lot to do. Like Kess's point of like you're doing actually a pretty amazing job here is correct.
00:59:44
Speaker
It's like it's true. And and that's why I thought it kind of edged out the Janeway stuff, because you could see her being backgrounded in a lot of moments. And so until the end, ah she doesn't really get that one big scene. But you know what? It's cable grew. I'm happy to give it to her. But I got to mention Robert Picardo. I thought this was a really good performance. It's this might be the best version of this. This might be the best episode for this version of The Doctor that we get before Picardo starts to change the character. Does that make sense?
01:00:14
Speaker
Yep, so. ah So then the Shatner. I gave that to Neelix when he has the panic attack. Like I really felt that panic attack when he's like, you know what? I think I need to get out. I need to get out. I need to get out right now. I need to get out. And then he just starts like hyperventilating and you're like, yeah, yeah, that's, yes, that's an appropriate response to this situation. And I felt like he did it really effectively because every time I see that scene, I'm like, ooh, like I just, I always think like, um, sedate him, sedate him. Like pain and panic so he can like calm down.
01:00:45
Speaker
I can't believe he didn't land on, I need to just keep Neelix today so he doesn't talk to me so I can do my paperwork. Yeah, that should have been the first clue. When he tells Cass to come back for visiting hours tomorrow, as soon as she left, he should have been like, good night. I'll wake you up at 1700 when Cass returns. That's right. that's um i So folks, Charisse has captured the spirit of the Shatner grade perfectly with that, but I have to give it,
01:01:14
Speaker
to Colley Fredrickson as Dareth because he is giving a haunted house performance. of a video in a way that actually undermines or it bolsters this idea that people view Star Trek as campy. And there's literally a dozen different definitions of camp of what camp is. John Waters is maybe kind of the face of what camp is. And his definition is like earnestness that's actually very cringe or bad. So there has to be like some sort of real commitment to it.
01:01:49
Speaker
The way I always learned it was that people know, people really going for something, knowing that it was maybe kind of bad. That's what camp really was, at least as I understand it. But I don't know what Fredrickson is doing here, but I, this like, okay, if people want to call Star Trek camp, let it start with Star Trek literature, at least, because he is delivering every line. Like he's. fucking Quasimodo or something, or Stewie Griffin, or like- The Phantom of the Opera? Yeah, the Phantom, perfect. is It's the only way to fight the phage. You don't have to explain yourself to him. Yes. yeah ah
01:02:31
Speaker
which of you will donate a lung?" She literally does that. Okay, and then in that scene, which of you will donate a lung? Cass is like, I will, I volunteer as tribute. And Neelix is like, no Cass, it's too dangerous, let someone else do it. And I just laughed at myself because I was like, buddy, no one else is volunteering.
01:02:47
Speaker
Sorry to tell you, no one else on this whole ship is going to be like, I volunteered, no one. So you better take Cass's lung. Because that's... Nobody in the galaxy loves you until like the third to last episode of the show. Can you imagine anyone else on the ship being like, I'll give a lung. No one's doing that, buddy. Take Cass's lung. Oh, Naomi Wildman. Sorry. She wasn't alive yet. I was making a disso.
01:03:10
Speaker
I was making a diss of like, no one loves unilics and no one ever will, except for Kestin, like, no, there's a couple of others. Yeah. And the Borg kids, they all they all love you. The Borg kids, yeah yeah. But the Borg kids, to be fair, they'll love anybody. That's kind of true. That's kind of true.
01:03:24
Speaker
but um Yours is is the spiritually correct one, but Coley Frederickson is doing some, he's not in another show. He's just like, based on what is written, this is as I, a Thespian, shall interpret it. I love that. And you will have this. Which of you will donate a lung? You're right. You're absolutely right. Like now that you say it, I'm like, yeah, okay, i yeah. I think i I need to change my vote. Because that was a lot.
01:03:56
Speaker
It's the first time we're meeting the Vadians, but subsequent Vadians are not cool. They are kind of like him, but they're not. It's like when they get to Pell, Dr. Pell, she's just like a normie. She's like the most normal. It's like kind of breaks it. It would have been funny if she was like kind of cockneyed. Oi, you got some body parts for me too. And then the doctor's still like having a thing with her.
01:04:17
Speaker
oh now It's like Mary Poppins, right? where yeah thats the And like, what is going on right now? but miss This colon is practically perfect in any way.
01:04:34
Speaker
This facial graft has gone spinning. That would have been amazing. All right. All right. Shoot to thrill. Most exciting image or sequence? Oh, for sure. The asteroid full of mirrors. Now, I missed this part. Was the asteroid the asteroid was naturally full of mirrors? And so the Vadians used it to hide? Or was that a technology that the Vadians created to make it look like it was full of mirrors?
01:04:57
Speaker
It's, it's nutty. So the rogue planetoid with the false dilithium signals on there, that was definitely a trap, right? So was this a home base? Or was it simply another? Well, but it wasn't video trap. It was it was where they had their organ lab. Like it was just, a it was hidden for their lab to be hidden. And then Voyager came upon it because they're always looking for dilithium.
01:05:20
Speaker
but it has false dilithium signals. That's what attracted them. So clearly it was designed as a lure for for people. And then, which doesn't, it falls apart. Like it makes sense of like, you have the dilithium signal there as the lure and then you steal the body parts you need and then you race off to your secret asteroid. But why would you keep the lab there? yeah You know what I mean? Cause it's going to be weird when people are like, huh, that's funny. His lungs are gone. Oh, well. We're like, how weird. Our three-person away team never returned. yeah Let's send three more. Yeah. So the, the Funhouse mirrors just seems like another ambush situation here, which is, uh, what else that could explain it? Yeah. Well, look that's what I had as well. It did look cool.
01:06:05
Speaker
What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy? I have two. One thing they need to teach is everything about these Vidyan medical scanners slash surgical transporters. Like we need that technology. Keep that. Keep one of their devices. We need all of that. Like give it to the doctor, let him recreate it. We don't need to necessarily be pulling people's lungs out of their bodies, but it's nice to have the ability. We have the option. You know, like this technology is very, very cool. um And then the second thing they'll teach at Starfleet Academy is that some asteroids are full of mirrors.
01:06:36
Speaker
Well, along those lines... I feel like that's the thing we should know. Or you could... Don't go into asteroids, just don't go in. The Ferengi are like, we could make a fun house out of an asteroid, what a great idea. We can charge an entry, that'd be amazing.
01:06:51
Speaker
ah I think... I can just picture that at Quirk's Bar, right? Come and see the asteroid, but all you do is just go in and you can't find your way back out.
01:07:04
Speaker
I think something and to do with the the immunosuppression or the ah adaptability of the organs, that's very helpful. Yeah. That they were like that there was actually a solution there ah for sure. I think there's got to be something about the ethics of what Janeway is doing in that transporter room scene, because I have to be honest with you, like even as a child and even today, it's like this is a decision I will never, ever in my life have to make. I'm pretty sure. But.
01:07:33
Speaker
At the same time, I have no concept of like it seems like it seems like she made the right call given the the limitations of what was going on. But I remember as a kid versus today that I was so angry.
01:07:48
Speaker
at them. But
Leadership and Ethical Dilemmas in Star Trek
01:07:49
Speaker
what can you do? So like, Janeway being able to mitigate her anger or modulate her emotions to think clear headedly, or with a clear mind, or at least remember her training. And that training has to be like, you're not a lawyer, but consider this, you're not a cop, but consider this, you're not a government, but consider this, you know, you your first priority is to your crew, and then the preservation of life. I think that's the order of ah priorities
01:08:19
Speaker
ah So I think that would, that ethic wouldn't necessarily be this moment. This would seem like an example in the chapter. yeah Let's start with Academy where you're learning about the ethics or the importance, what the priority list. I feel like that should almost be a trope because that happens a lot to the captains, right? Where they're out in some like, the I'm thinking of the example.
01:08:39
Speaker
Uh, from TNG called the survivors with Kevin and Rashawn, like the two, the old couple that's left the planet. And then Kevin ends up being a doubt, like a super powerful alien who destroyed a whole species with a thought and all this stuff. And Picard is just like, well,
01:08:53
Speaker
When I meet it an alien this powerful, the best thing to do is just leave him alone. And he just sends him back to the planet. But he tells him, he was like, we have no laws that we could hold against you. We have no prisons that could hold you. We have no we have nothing we could do to to judge you or or hurt you in any way. So we're just going to let you go back to the planet and just live out your life in fantasy land. And we're going to go this way. You know, I almost feel like that should be a trope of like captains getting these situations where they are kind of like Judge jury executioner and they have to decide. Should they do something? Can they do something? What should they do? What's the right thing to do? Especially with Janeway being so far away from Starfleet. There's no backup for her. Correct, which is what she's that sucks. If all the Indians are like kill the Voyager. I mean they're pretty screwed.
01:09:41
Speaker
Also, you know, Neelix, her commitment to Neelix is minimal. If that was Harry Kim in there, maybe she's not able to hold back her anger. You know what I mean? Like, there is some difference. But this was definitely her kind of becoming mama bear this episode in a lot of ways. And I don't think the characters realizing that in the moment. It was definitely and if you look at the notes,
01:10:04
Speaker
the show realizing like jane we really stepped into her power in this one but she did what any good captain would say in this situation like if we ever see one of your ships again it is not gonna go this way i love that i love that she was like i'm gonna have to let you go that's all i can do and she goes but listen to this and she She leaves them with this deadly threat. If I ever, ever tell your people, all your people, that I'm gonna be on the lookout. And if they mess with me again, I will respond with the deadliest of force. like This time I'm letting you go, but only this time. I'm not letting anybody go next time. It's like, okay, all right.
01:10:38
Speaker
Yep. She was completely correct. And it's just, it's a tough situation. Yeah. And then but maybe it's like the impossible choice is the best Trek trope. The impossible Starfleet. Yeah. I like when they do that because it makes you think like, what would you do that scenario? And it gets good conversation between the people who've seen the episode. Cause everyone's, you know, like, I would definitely do this. Well, I would definitely do that. And you're like, but would you though, that's why it's an impossible choice. Yeah. Everyone is so quick to kill Tuvix.
01:11:05
Speaker
Which is funny. Just because Janeway was, doesn't mean you wouldn't. Right, right. And when I first watched that episode, like I was like, absolutely, I'm on team Janeway. Like, let's get rid of two vics. But when I rewatched it recently as an adult, I was like, wait, actually kind of like him better than two bucks. And then I thought,
01:11:21
Speaker
Wait a minute, we have the most genius, brilliant doctor in the entire galaxy. Just give him a couple more days. Like he literally was like, I can't, I might never find a solution to this. And three weeks later, he's like, solved it. Okay, so give him another three weeks and he'll figure it out. Right. ah But yeah, everyone, everyone's, I love the impossible choice. I actually am going to put that as a best trope because it's so interesting.
01:11:44
Speaker
Yeah, and sometimes there are false impossible choices, which so that's good to have as a trope that we can modulate. But you just reminded me that this ah whole episode kind of hinges on that Neelix's lungs can only be ah replicated on the holodeck and not the transporter, because we've literally seen them reverse aging ah transporter duplicates. Like it's not they could have just re transported Neelix with it. Like when they beamed him him to sickbay, the pattern could have been like, wait a minute, it's missing something. Yeah, they have a backup of Neelix stored in there, like the exactly the pattern in the missing pattern. Now we know why they didn't do that, because then there would be no episode. But come on, that is kind of on offer.
01:12:33
Speaker
You're dealing with the transport. Yeah. And if they did, you had the shuttle, like you said, and they, you know, ionic storm and we can't beam you out. And that's why you took a shuttle and now he has no lungs, but he's in the shuttle. And like, say this is season five. So the doctor has the hollow emitter and he can be on the away team too. It, this would, that would be more interesting because then you'd be like, well, there's, they can't use transporters because something, something. So now they have to find another way. Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? No.
01:13:02
Speaker
and No, it could not have and no, it would not have made it better. yeah I've never heard you say that. um I mean, i it's so gross. The whole episode, we don't want to see a horniness with Gene Neelix and Kess. We get a little horniness with Tom Paris. He's putting that out there. And that's what inspires. I mean, and Tom Paris in every scene, he's like fighter fuck. That's his premise walking into. That's how Robert Duncan McNeil is playing him, whether he recognizes it or not, at least in the first five or six episodes.
01:13:32
Speaker
Oh, you know, he he's like in the whole series. Yeah, he's like that always to the very end. No, because towards the end, he's like, I'm going to go home and I'm going to crack open a beer and watch 1950s TV. Like later on, he just becomes a CBS sitcom husband. He becomes Al Bundy. Yeah, I put at first I put in a but then I was like, actually, after this conversation, I was like, well, we could have had more warmth.
01:13:56
Speaker
um and kindness and romance between Kes and Neelix instead of the jealousy route they went. We could have had a more emotional, a more moving, a more romantic scene there. And I think that would have made it better because then we wouldn't keep getting that creepy, grooming vibe. Yeah. I think, so like, I think they knew that, but they don't know how to write to that because if you notice Neelix will have his breakdown scene, but then the room is suddenly decorated. He's saying,
01:14:25
Speaker
things that are so bad, but he's always fun. Like his character is constantly finding the positive in even bad situations. And I think for him, it takes him a moment to come around, but I don't think they're able to write the positive stuff as much as they're able to write the complaining and the freak outs and the negative stuff. Cause it's harder to to be positive and to find a unique way that doesn't just feel empty and kind of delusional. But like the fact that the ceiling is, you know, he asks, why isn't music playing? He could have had music playing, you know, it's like, but maybe they didn't want to get into all that. I really like your idea of the romance thing. Cause there's a version of those two characters.
01:15:04
Speaker
where it's still weird, but it's like more understandable. Like if two years as a no comp and is like a 20 year old and he's like the guy that got out of prison and he's in his late thirties and he's made, you know what I mean? Like she's the young girl who's come from a rough home and he's the young guy or he's the older guy who's on come out on the other side of it. Wiser like.
01:15:26
Speaker
It does it, it like makes a lot more sense. But could you imagine like Neelix with like sleeve tattoos and a little grudgy or whatever? rate to have Yeah, that'd be so great. So the thing I think that's why the romance is so weird is because she's only two, you know, slash 20. And the actress herself was like 19.
01:15:42
Speaker
So it's like because she's so because she and she's a comp in and so she's literally Literally sheltered like she has been sheltered by the caretaker in this little bubble of privilege You're totally right and then she escapes to go live on the run with some pirate guy and that's what makes it feel creepy because they're their social emotional intelligence is not equivalent. Their experience is not equivalent, but to your point, if instead she had a rough background and he had a rough background or she or he has or he was developmentally delayed or he's, for some reason, even though he's older emotionally, he's more like a teenager, then you'd be like, oh, okay, well, they're kind of both teenagers. Like technically he's older, but like he acts just like a 20 year old. So they actually are on the same page and you don't get that. You get like this sheltered, young, naive child
01:16:27
Speaker
with this old mature experienced man. And that's the weird disconnect. And that's why the writing's always weird because he's always trying to tell her things because she's a child and doesn't know anything. She's so naive. He's always like, Kess sweetie, we don't talk loud on the bridge. Kess sweetie. You know what I mean? He's always like parenting her. And that's what makes it really gross. But yeah, if they had found a way to not make this creepy and groomy,
01:16:55
Speaker
um then I think probably people would not have hated Neelix as much and hated Kes as much. But, I mean, that's just a guess. ah Just to be clear, I don't hate, I don't think Neelix is a bad character just because of that. But it adds a bad taste in your mouth, right? Absolutely. It leads to finding other problems. It gets off to the wrong, on the wrong foot. Yes. Yeah. Cause his relationship with Tuvok, that is an interesting one too.
Wrap-Up and Future Topics
01:17:21
Speaker
Like that one's a lot more fun, but it's still so sort of the same thing of like, I don't know. It's like,
01:17:27
Speaker
if his goal is like getting him to loosen up, but then he's a tight, he's a jealous freak on his, in his personal life. So it's like, it's just, yeah, it doesn't. And they're very consistent with that. So at least there's that.
01:17:40
Speaker
So yeah, that's true. fair Fair point. So you're actually saying this episode could have been a little hornier and that might have made it better. Yes. that Because that would have given more emotional yeah it would have given more emotional resonance if we saw some kind of softness between Cass and Neelix and not just like, Tom wants to have you for himself. And she's like, you're being ridiculous. I'm leaving. like We could have had more like, oh no, how sad. Cass might lose him or something.
01:18:04
Speaker
Right. Uh, I love it when we disagree because never, I, this episode's so gross. I can't think of those terms. All right. So Trek barrier kill phase. This one is a Trek for me.
01:18:19
Speaker
I like it. Yeah, I gave it a, yeah, I gave it a check as well. But the Indians are great as a, as a, a good villain, as an antagonist. yeah I like the darker kind of haunted house stuff when they're on the asteroid, the fun house mirrored, the Janeway stuff in the transporter room. It's almost like a fun house mirror.
01:18:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, it it literally, no, it is. It's exactly like that. They just didn't, yeah, you got it.
01:18:46
Speaker
um Great, so ah let's see here.
01:18:54
Speaker
All right, so we're going to keep doing this for the month of January here. We're going to look at a few more episodes of Voyager from the first season. Charisse, where can people find you outside of this podcast? You can find me on YouTube by typing in at the sci-fi savage. Come join me every Wednesday where we do a live stream to chat all about Star Trek.
01:19:15
Speaker
where check Mary K Pod on social media and check marykillpod.com on the web where you can see all of our standings. Charisse and I will be back next week with an all new episode. So until then, TMK out. Bye.