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VOY: "Eye of the Needle" (s1e6)
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TIME IS PRECIOUS. It's been 30 years since this episode aired and yet it remains one of Voyager's most indelible hours. Is a random Romulan contacted through a wormhole friend or foe to the ship stranded in the Delta Quadrant and is the episode a TREK, MARRY, or KILL?
The grades begin at (28:27).
Recommended
Transcript
Wormhole Discovery and Romulan Encounter
00:00:00
Speaker
next on Trek Mary Kill Romulans manners wormhole energize Lost 70,000 light years from Earth. They must risk everything. It certainly looks like a wormhole. But is it stable enough for us to enter it? To find our probe. It's just scanned. Away. We could transport the entire crew back to the Alpha Quadrant. Home. The message originated from a Romulan ship. Is their journey into the unknown almost over? Energize. Or just beginning on Star Trek Voyager. The adventure continues next Monday on UPM.
00:00:40
Speaker
Mary Kill.
00:00:46
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Charisse. Welcome to Trek Mary Kill, a podcast that has a one in three chance of loving an episode of Star Trek. Those aren't bad odds. They're not great odds. I'm trying to have Janeway's optimism here.
00:01:03
Speaker
It's the 30th anniversary of the premiere of Star Trek Voyager, and here in the month of January, Cherise and I have been looking back at episodes from across the first season. This week it's the seventh episode of Voyager ever, Eye of the Needle, which premiered on UPM, the United Paramount Network. February 20th, 1995 was the original air date, teleplay by Bill Dial and Jerry Taylor, from a story by Hilary J. Bader, directed by Vinrich Kolb. Memory Alpha describes it.
Ethical Dilemmas and AI Rights
00:01:30
Speaker
Voyager makes contact with the Romulan ship through a wormhole that leads back to the Alpha Quadrant. What memory alpha isn't telling us is, and this is a huge spoiler, but i I think there are people who don't watch the episodes of Star Trek, but actually listen to our podcast. I've been told that, which is great. I appreciate that. But I'm spoiling a 30 year old episode of television now, because it's a pretty big one. So they made contact with this Romulan ship. But guess what, folks? It's in the past. So it's in the Alpha Quadrant, but it's 20 years in the past. And so all their attempts, like maybe this is the way home. It was the way to send messages.
00:02:09
Speaker
runs into some problems. ah The other storyline that's kind of important is Kess doesn't like the way Voyager Screw is treating the doctor and agitates for Janeway to make some changes. Shrees, do you remember the first time you saw this episode?
00:02:21
Speaker
I don't remember the first time, but I do remember the first time I rewatched this episode, um, when it came to streaming. So like, obviously I saw it all live, but yeah, I don't remember what was going on when I was ah a teen or tween when I watched it. But I do remember the rewatch because I remember this episode being like, Oh my gosh, this is really exciting. And then being like, Oh man, what a bummer. Oh man, what a bummer. You know, it just kept like, it kept getting more and more of a bummer where you're like, well, I mean, at least they can get their messages. And then you're like, they can't even get their messages. And then it's just like,
00:02:52
Speaker
day. Yeah. You know, and and at the end, I mean, Jamie sums it up perfectly where she's like near tears and she goes, all right, let's get back to work. We have a long trip. It's just like, well, that was a big waste of time. But you know, hope is good. Because because the opposite is just despair. yeah So oh yeah, back to back to long range scans. You know, it's just I don't know something about that kind of ending feels very real to me very real world like how many times do things just like not work out and your options your only option is to keep going forward and it's frustrating and it's not fun and it's like all your excitement was for nothing but there's really no option to stop.
00:03:30
Speaker
Right. And if you don't try your best every time, you don't know how close you could actually get or achieve the thing you're after because, you know, if they had been cynical going into this whole thing once there was a couple of setbacks that might not have yeah pushed them to get as far as they did.
Character Treatment and Ethical Reflections
00:03:46
Speaker
And they could have gotten back to the Alpha Quadrant. Yes. In this episode. They could have. I don't know, but they could have. Yes. And i maybe we'll talk about that later. This is one of the few times where I i was like, no, I don't. ah they made the right call at the end. Because sometimes I still don't agree with the caretaker situation. now That was a terrible decision. The caretaker decision is like, I understand.
00:04:14
Speaker
It was nonsense. It was like, we could go home or we could just stay here. The moral, moral stain of of condemning the, the Ocampo is probably enough for a captain. Like that's the call a captain has to make of like, we all carry the weight of making the decision to get us all home.
00:04:32
Speaker
But that's not what we're talking about today. No, we're talking about Eye of the Needle, ah which to me is the first episode that kept my interest. It got my interest back in Voyager. I remember very clearly the first time I saw this, because I i was 14 years old, and I was in the inertia of simply Star Trek is on. So whatever it is, right that's I'm watching it. and And after Caretaker, I was kind of like, I've seen all this that feels familiar. I'm not really connecting to these characters too much.
00:05:01
Speaker
Although I think phage was right before that and that was pretty interesting So this one was kind of like, oh, the twist is such a twist, especially when you're 14 years old. You're like, whoa, that's really crazy. Crazy coming. No. You're just kind of like, oh, it won't work because you know Romulans and it won't work. like There's other reasons that seem completely understandable. like Or the Romulan ship, you know the the Starfleet ship will get there,
Star Trek's Influence and Versatility
00:05:26
Speaker
but just too late. And then the probe gets crushed. Yes, the probe, yes. That's what's going to happen. And then that's not what happens. And you're like, well wait. That's right.
00:05:35
Speaker
But also, this was a family bonding exercise, because my family did not like that I watched Star Trek all the time. But for whatever reason, this was the night where it was on. And I think because it was a woman captain, and I had just ah my mom and my sisters, like I think they were more inclined to kind of pay attention. And this was the one that we all bonded over, and they really liked it. So I remember it very clearly from that. and this ah for our show for Check Mary Kill. This is the first time since the initial airing. So the first time in 30 years that I've watched this episode. Oh, wow. know Did it bring back all your memories?
00:06:11
Speaker
No, i remember it very strong I always remember thinking of this episode as like one of Voyager's best anyway. I don't know if that's tipping my hand because now I've since rewatched it. um and And so I remember all that still very clearly. I was just like, wow, they paid attention. And they were like interested in what was happening instead of being like, this is stupid, which is usually the case with Star Trek. so um Yeah, I have fond memories of that. But I also ah remember that this did establish my dislike and distrust of the Voyager crew because of how they treated the doctor. And that's just going to lead us right into this question I'm going to ask. so ah Let's talk about being re rude to a computer. ah Who cares? Or do you care?
00:06:55
Speaker
Yeah, I actually do care because I watch so much sci-fi. Me and my sci-fi friends, we have this whole thing. We have this whole conversation where we're like, look, when the robot overlords take over, we want them to look favorably upon us. So it's like all the listening devices that are in our lives, you know we're polite to them. And even when I use AI to help me write an email, I say please and thank you, because how hard is that? And do I think it makes any difference to the AI?
00:07:22
Speaker
Probably not. I mean, they're learning models. So yes, like then if I'm polite, they're polite back. If I'm rude, they're not rude back, but just kind of like less polite. So it doesn't really make that big of a difference for them, but I think it does make a big difference for me. Am I the kind of person who like, when I make a request of anyone or anything, I am polite and respectful, or am I the kind of person who when I see something as a servant to me, quote unquote, I just treat it like garbage and I treat it like trash. So it's more about me than it is about the AI. And I think that's the point.
00:07:52
Speaker
It is the point. It just, when you're 14 years old, I'm like, who cares? He's a hologram. And so it really like, to me, it's like, it's a computer. If we are making these tools almost so that we can be that way to them, but you know what I mean? Like there we have an outlet because I don't know if you notice human beings are pretty awful to each other. So we create all these rules and conditions where we can treat people differently or things differently to do that. So like, as a kid, I was like, why is this a big deal? Why are they wasting time on this? Now, as an adult, I'm a hundred percent with you. I'm like,
00:08:22
Speaker
This is your soul you're talking about. yeah How you treat others is they matter it matters to you. It's the most basic selfish thing that you could think of if that's the only way to appeal to some people. Some people you don't need to appeal to them on that level. But yeah, it makes perfect sense. um I'm still on the middle about these voice, the series of the world and all that because they don't learn the the Siri especially doesn't really learn. it's like It's a heuristic that's devised from all data sets. It's not personal to me. We don't have a personal relationship. like and i don't need Also, it barely understands what I'm saying when I talk to it. so the like The idea of making sure I get a ah
Voyager's Morality and Humor
00:09:05
Speaker
please in there before it snaps shut. It doesn't know what I'm saying at the time.
00:09:09
Speaker
But yeah, I think that's, especially something that's designed to look like a person and interact with people. yeah I don't understand what, that's why I had a problem with how rude they were just being, the Voyager crew, that it was to a hologram, as Janeway points out, and then she she tries to victim blame a little bit. She's like, well, he's rude too.
00:09:30
Speaker
And he is rude. And i guess yeah I think when I was a teenager, I was more of the opinion that they're both rude. So I was kind of like, well, you know, like you dish it out. He dishes it out. I mean, that's just the way it is. Yeah. And um and that's kind of how teenagers think sometimes, right? They're just like, I don't know. That's just what it's like. And your point as a teenager, how many 14 year old boys are like,
00:09:48
Speaker
but it's about my soul and how i treat others right and not very many right although that is what most of our teachers are trying to teach especially the boys like you have to be good to other people like that sells us something about you like that was a lesson that they were trying to teach 14 year old boys Yeah, so I mean, it different perspectives make sense. But yeah, i I do think it's more about how we treat others. And I feel like the person who would be rude to the doctor is the person who would be rude to a server at a restaurant. It's the same person. Yeah. Who's just like, you're here to serve me. So do what I say. And it's like, man, if you don't get out of here, you know, that person could spit in your food. Like, that's just, and the doctor's like, literally, he's going to be performing brain surgery and stuff. I know. I mean, like,
00:10:32
Speaker
He's the only medical officer on the ship. It's insane. So I guess if if religion still existed in Star Trek time, like Earth religions were still a thing that people practiced. If there were like Catholics on board, Voyager, you it's we are arguing that the people of Voyager have committed sins because of how rude they are to the doctor. And so they deserve to be stranded in the Delta Quadrant.
00:10:57
Speaker
After they got to the Delta Quadrant. They deserve to be strung along. Well, they're not good people. They didn't just suddenly become bad people because they're stranded. Yeah, I don't know if they were bad or if they were just thoughtless. I mean, to your point, they were just like, it's a computer. I don't have to be nice to it. And I guess the whole point is like Hess being an Okampian.
00:11:17
Speaker
has a different worldview. So she's like, he seems real to me. And they're like, well, he does, but he's not. And she's like, but he kind of is, though, isn't he? Because, yeah, because like he talks to us the same way and interacts and he grows and he learns. And they're like, it's just a it's just an illusion.
00:11:31
Speaker
um I'm so fascinated by the casting, especially now. ah Just looking back, we'll talk about her a little bit more. I'll just run through some other notes here. ah The Romulan scientist is played by Star Trek veteran Von. Oh, sorry.
00:11:47
Speaker
I want to talk about Kess a little bit more in a bit, but I have a sub question related to the doctor and then we'll get into the notes. So my question for you is, do you think the doctor finally gets a name in Starfleet Academy? I forgot this was a thing that they established with
Impact of Hilary J. Bader and Star Trek Inspirations
00:12:02
Speaker
him having a name.
00:12:03
Speaker
I don't know, because he had he had a name in the last episode of Voyager, an endgame. He'd given himself his name and it was something like Bob. It was very- But it was a false future, right? yeah Yeah. It was an alternate timeline because Janeway changed the timeline. So the name of Bob you know may not still stick. um He may have a name. I can't think of a name that's going to be satisfactory to fans at this point because he's been the doctor for like 30 years. So maybe, maybe they'll just call him the doctor.
00:12:34
Speaker
Uh, so some notes, then we'll get into the grades. The Romulan scientist is played by Star Trek veteran, Von Armstrong, who has played 12 characters in total throughout the franchise. Shreese, can you name three of them? No. Do you recognize him though? Like no, you didn't recognize him at all. in makeup no Okay. All right. So all the way back in the next generation in the first season episode, heart of glory, he was captain chorus.
00:13:02
Speaker
In DS9, he played Goldenar in past prologue, Telegrimor here in Eye of the Needle. And he played another Cardassian in DS9, Cescal in two episodes. And then in Voyager again, he played one, two, three, four, four other aliens. He played um two of nine in the episode Survival Instinct. So I guess he was like a Borg.
00:13:29
Speaker
A Liberated Borg. Liberated Borg, thank you. He was a Vedian captain in Fury, and he was an Alpha Herogen in Flesh and Blood, or the Alpha Herogen in Flesh and Blood. And then he was Korath in Endgame. Wow. Yeah. So then in Enterprise, he was Admiral Forest. He was Admiral Forest's mirror universe, which is two characters because they're different, slightly different names. He played a Klingon captain, and he was a Kritassian captain. Kritassian captain. So.
00:13:58
Speaker
Pretty crazy. That's impressive. And I think it's the fact that he never plays a human, that he gets to play all these other things. Or maybe one of those was a human. and I think he just, his voice. But this is the cool thing about Star Trek though. If you play a Ferengi and then a Cardassian and then a Romulan and then a human, and then like, you know, I mean, you can play all of them and they're all different. They all look totally different. And you're like, cool. Like I buy it.
00:14:21
Speaker
It's weird though because we have Jeffrey Combs and everyone makes the joke about Jeffrey Combs as every character and all that stuff. But Von Armstrong I think has him beat. I think just the difference is Jeffrey Combs with all due respect to California native and he's from Sonora, which is Northern California. So he and I have shared the same air and water. um i you know So he's my boy in that way. But you know Jeffrey Combs has the juice. you know He's got a little more vibes the vibes are more in his favor because Von Armstrong this is that's a lot of characters across the across the threshold but he's kind of like ah their super utility player off the bench for a long time the swiss army character that's right that's right so memory alpha notes i'll try to run through these because i actually have a lot i i like talking about these when we can when we can highlight
00:15:07
Speaker
Maybe not unsung heroes, but you know people who made an impact on Star Trek and deserve to be talked about a little bit more. Because God knows we talk about so much in Star Trek. you know i mean We talk about the episodes, the actors, all these things. So the plot concept of this episode was originally pitched by Hilary J. Bader, a former intern,
00:15:27
Speaker
on The Next Generation. ah The writing staff of Voyager immediately wanted to buy her pitch. Executive producer Jerry Taylor commented, Hillary Bader has given us a lot of wonderful stories. That story was one of the early ones we bought. Here's her Trek resume. She had the story in teleplay for The Loss. I know an episode we don't like.
00:15:45
Speaker
ah hero worship she did the story a dark page she wrote dark page is probably a little unsung not only does it have Kirsten Dunst in it but it's a pretty pretty good episode anyway ah in DS 9 she had three story or three four episode credits, story credits. Battle lines, rules of acquisition, meridian, and explorers. That's a 50% hit rate, if my memory serves. And then she explores it especially. ah And then Voyager was Eye of the Needle. But she also wrote Star Trek Klingon and Star Trek Borg, the video games. And then I did not know this. She wrote the Star Trek Borg experience.
00:16:30
Speaker
um Which is that, hold on. I didn't look this up. So I'm just going to leave it to mystery or complaints. Is that the Las Vegas Borg experience? Did you go to that? No, I didn't learn about that till years and years and years after it no longer existed.
00:16:46
Speaker
I always thought it was Lisa Klink who wrote it, but basically you go into a theater and you have like a Borg adventure and I think Janeway's in it and the Doctor's in it and then the Borg Queen's in it. And then you're sitting in a chair and the chair is doing stuff like you get assimilated and all this. You actually get led on there and there's like an interactive phase where you see a crew member get like yanked up by the Borg to be assimilated. So it was kind of fun. um Anyway, i I bring up Hilary Bader's contributions to Star Trek.
00:17:15
Speaker
Uh, she passed away from breast cancer at the age of 50, uh, in 2002. Yeah. But she, she had a long career outside of Star Trek. Uh, she did Xena warrior princess. She wrote the new Batman adventures, Superman, in the animated series, and a lot of Batman beyond. She got seven daytime Emmys.
00:17:33
Speaker
and one twice, I think both times for the Batman stuff, or once for Batman Beyond, one for Batman Adventures. And then I also have to mention this, she was also wrote for one of the most absurd, syndicated sci-fi shows ever, Cleopatra 2525.
00:17:50
Speaker
I've never heard of that. Oh, should we pause the podcast? Hold on. I'm going to send you the link right now to the opening credits so you can listen to it because I remember. So Star Trek The Next Generation kicked off everyone realizing it was like a resurgence and syndication that, oh, my gosh, you can actually do um you can do.
00:18:11
Speaker
be successful in syndication with science fiction and stuff. ah So it kicked off a whole thing. And I kind of always felt like Cleopatra 2525 was the nadir of that idea. And I'm just going to send you the opening title music so that you can hear it and enjoy it.
00:19:04
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Wow. I would have watched that. I would have totally watched that. ah fun wigs, yeahp cool outfits, lots of shooting, lots and lots of shooting, lots of robots and the robots are shooting. I would have totally watched that. Had I ever heard of that show in my life, I would have watched that.
00:19:24
Speaker
So I said this in our discovery set up, like I'm a snob that so that is below the line. did That did not reach. I'm going to totally watch that. I would have been like explosions, racing. Are they going to? Oh, they made it. They saved it. Basically Power Rangers. But for like tweens, like just like slightly older than how old I was when I started watching Power Rangers. So it would be like the natural next progression. Pubescent Power Ranger fans. There we go. Absolutely.
00:19:53
Speaker
And as much as this was Hilary's story, Jerry Taylor, after Bill Dial, rewrote this extensively. She said of the process for this one, I love writing people shows in the building of this arc between Janeway and this Romulan commander, which began with his complete doubt, skepticism, and weariness, all those Romulan things, in a sense by long distance that built into a relationship and closeness and almost a friendship. The idea that by the end he was almost our champion was a lot of fun. And also when I was rewatching this, I'm like,
00:20:21
Speaker
You don't have to do this with every story, but I kind of think the best stories, especially for TV, is where you could imagine the other side of the story in detail. You could almost see how the time travel variance and him missing, seeing his daughter grow up. You know what I mean? Like there is like a dramatic parallel there that would play very well on the other side.
00:20:42
Speaker
um As Starfleet doesn't learn of Voyager's circumstances until season four's message in the bottle, it is clear that Starfleet never did receive the crew's letters. And of course, we learned at the end of the episode that Telekramor died four years before he was to have sent the message. Again, like Shrek said, um every yeah every positive gets ah completely knocked down. Torres surmises at the end of this episode that in spite of his death, he may have passed Voyager's chip onto the Romulan government.
00:21:11
Speaker
In the Season 7 episode, Inside Man, Reg Barkley comments that the Romulans, quote, have always been interested in Voyager, unquote, which may or may not be a result of having studied the chip after Remora's passing.
Optimism vs. Grim Narratives in Storytelling
00:21:24
Speaker
I'm going to say maybe that that is actually a real actual canon connection.
00:21:32
Speaker
um i think i think that makes a lot of sense actually know this episode along with the caretaker pilot served as the backbone for the behindthecenes reference book ah vision of the future star trek voyager star trek the original series so i'm mentioning this because when i was going through the memory alpha notes as i often do there are it is one of the longest and trees and it's because there's a lot of transcribing or copy-pasting from this book which I'm not getting into at all but it like literally is like a production meeting for this episode and like detailing everything that happens in all these meetings and if you work in production on tv show it can be interesting but I'm bringing this up because
00:22:07
Speaker
One of the things that Star Trek, at least for the the deep fans like me but especially, is that Star Trek has always been parallel to television production. It has inspired people not only to get into science, ah to become astronauts or you know rocket scientists and all that because of Spock and Uhura and all that.
00:22:26
Speaker
it's inspired people to get into TV. ah The making of Star Trek back in the 70s for the original series showed how they made an episode of Star Trek, inspired writers and directors just like, I want to make TV. That seems cool. And and so Star Trek's always had these kind of like behind the scenes production books that tells you how to make TV on top of it. So for people like me, I've always been, that's why I go into the memory of notes. I'm like, what was the production decisions and all that? So I'm just glad to see, you know, at least through Voyager, even. That's why the new shows, it's hard to get this information because it's a much more black box situation. They don't go into it. And to be true truthful here, that's because every time I hear anything about what how they're made, it's just chaos. It's like the kitchen of the bear where it's just like.
00:23:13
Speaker
A lot of shouting and chaos, confusion and competing egos. Well, in fairness to Neelix, and you know, I'm being fair because I never want to give that guy an inch. He's the only one in that kitchen. You know what I mean? yes That's true. That's true.
00:23:30
Speaker
he is a bit dramatic too he also wants to do well because i kind of think the voyager crew is pretty chill so like in terms of like their food demands so the idea that' it's better than replicator rations so they're like i'll eat it whatever it is i'll i'll eat it i don't want to eat so he's creating more work for himself yeah uh-huh So anyway, and I just want to highlight that because I just appreciate that that's always been part and parcel with Star Trek is like not only does it inspire us in our modern day, what's possible for our future? How can we evolve as people? It's also like, hey, if you want to make.
00:24:04
Speaker
stuff, visual mediums, like here's ah here's how we do it. And I think that's a cool um transparency. ah This episode achieved a Nielsen rating of 7.7 million homes and the 12% share. I bring this up because it's always really tough to compare last century ratings to today.
00:24:20
Speaker
I hate looking at TV ratings these days. It's so depressing to see how many people watch TV on a weekly basis, not because I think t what I'm saying is like compared to streaming, like stream the internet has basically swallowed up TV. So 7.7 million homes, which is not the same as 7.7 million viewers, but let's just use that as the number. So for comparison's sake,
00:24:41
Speaker
on the most recent kickoff for the fall season.
Media Consumption and Ratings Evolution
00:24:44
Speaker
So we're in January now, September 23rd was the kickoff of the official fall 2024-2025 season. The number one show that week scripted.
00:24:56
Speaker
that wasn't sports, so scripted show with Chicago Fire, which got 5.6 million viewers. The number one overall show that was not a sporting event was The Voice and that had six million viewers. So just the show, because 7.7 million for Voyager at its time, it's in like the hundreds. Maybe it's in the low, like maybe between 50 and 100, not great ratings, but now it would be like the biggest show on TV. So just funny to bring that up.
00:25:27
Speaker
And the other thing, too, that's different about streaming and and regular TV is that you would watch reruns whenever they ran on regular TV because there was nothing else to watch and your regular show was off air or whatever. yeah um But with streaming, you could watch the same episode 1,000 times in a row. yeah You could like literally watch it on repeat. And I don't know how they measure that or who's measuring that or whatever. But that's also a big difference, is it's like with the regular weekly shows, you'd watch the one episode, the one day,
00:25:55
Speaker
And then maybe never again, or maybe not for years to come or maybe not till the summer. Yeah. Unless you taped it, which again, they wouldn't be able to, to, uh, measure that that happened. Yeah. They wouldn't be able to measure that, um, versus streaming where it's like.
00:26:07
Speaker
these 6 million viewers, you know six million views are those unique views or are those like 3 million people who watched it twice? Do you know what I mean? And that's the other part is there's cross-platform measurement now. So ah when I mentioned those ratings, that is like, did you watch it on TV or cable subscription or antenna on the day that it aired? And then they also factor in time-shifting programming. And so then you'll see stuff like High Potential, a new show on ABC this this year.
00:26:36
Speaker
where it's like it got five five and a half million when it aired. And then the next week, within the next three days, there's a certain number and it's like 11 million total. So then the numbers do go up because that's where the the audiences are now. But it's just interesting that to think about how much has changed over the years. um Years after having worked as a science consultant on Star Trek Voyager, Andrey Bormanis cited this episode as one of his favorites from the series.
00:27:01
Speaker
And in a poll conducted by Star Trek magazine after Voyager's first season finished in the UK, this episode came third in the category of favorite Voyager episode. Small sample, okay, 18 episodes. So this was, came in third. The first being, I don't know, I haven't seen it yet. And the second most popular choice being Caretaker. Which was the first one, so.
00:27:27
Speaker
Yeah, so that was very funny to me that there did. I don't know. I haven't seen it yet. Beat caretaker. OK, whatever. I think that's very funny that they went ahead and published that poll anyway.
00:27:43
Speaker
They didn't just pick like pick the fourth episode for the top three. The top episode of Star Trek Voyager's first season, according to fans polled in the UK, coming in 52%, number one, don't know, haven't seen it yet.
00:28:02
Speaker
As you can trust their data, they're not cheering. And then it's like 40% caretaker and then 8%. I have needle. we I don't know. I'm making it up, but it could have just as well been that. We don't know. Shall we get into the grades? Yeah, let's do it. All right, grade scenes. um I have two. The first one, and this one I really, really loved, was the scene between Harry and Belanna when they're talking about family back home.
00:28:33
Speaker
and i just enjoyed the little like kind of ah slice of life moment in the middle of working, that it's like, oh, we can chitchat while we're working and while we're doing our thing. And I liked hearing more about Harry and his personality through that, like, I call my parents every week. You're like, okay, you can tell he's still very young and, you know, very sheltered and all of that, very sweet. And then Bolano, who's like, I mean, I think my parents are still alive, like very the opposite of Harry, right? But we're getting to see what what her childhood dynamics were like, and maybe why she's the way she is a little bit.
00:29:03
Speaker
And I had this question to myself after I wrote down the scene because I really enjoyed it. I had this question. I was like, why do I like the heart to heart between Harry and Belanna? And I was so frustrated by the heart to hearts and discovery season five. I was like, is this not still a heart to heart in the midst of, you know, a mission or whatever. And the answer I came up with myself was that this felt very organic and natural and like,
00:29:26
Speaker
at this moment, they weren't running down the corridors with people shooting at them, or the ship wasn't about to explode in 30 seconds. And they're like, Hey, buddy, I just want to talk about your feelings. I know when you were a kid, you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't like that. It was like very casual in the midst of what they're doing. They did pause for a second for Harry to be like, wait,
00:29:43
Speaker
You don't know where your mom is? Isn't that sad? Don't you have any Doesn't anybody love you? know And her belong to be like, nope, back to work. you know It's just kind of like, I don't know. I just, I really liked that. Something about, I don't know. I think i was so hard on the hard tarts, right? For Discovery? You got it right. It's organic, right? Because it's like, we're on this mission to find this clue. And then it's suddenly like, I got an email from my student. I had a panic attack and I almost want to quit. That's what would happen in Discovery. It's like, what?
00:30:13
Speaker
My student says they didn't like the test I gave them and maybe I'm just not a good teacher. Yeah, this this one is, um ah oh my gosh, we have a chance to send a message to our people back home. I can't wait to tell my mom and dad who were worried about me every day I was out in space that I'm okay still out in space. yeah Who are you looking forward to contacting? And then Torres saying, nobody loves me. That's completely organic to the story that they're telling.
00:30:40
Speaker
uh so i i completely agree two interesting notes about that i didn't put them in the memory alpha notes this episode establishes that harry kim is 22 years old and i have to be completely honest as much as i was watching at the time as a punk teenager being like why is he like that if i were 22 years old in that situation now having been 22 years old i would be just like harry kim i would be like I mean my parents were not as like on they were differently well my mom was like not in like a healthy way like are you okay but I would be like I gotta check in with my sisters let them know I'm okay that kind of thing like people care about me my grandparents like that would matter to me
00:31:17
Speaker
um So that makes perfect sense to me yeah now.
Character Development and Janeway's Perspective Shift
00:31:20
Speaker
And then the other part of it is Roxanne Biggs Dawson was interviewed about this episode, or I think for that book. And she said, I had been playing it as my dad was the Klingon and my mom was the human. And then this script was the one that reversed it, um which I thought was fine. I was trying to think of what that story would be like. But again, that's why I like when stories can suggest other ones. Right, like right. Because we had the male Klingon with Worf, the male Klingon with a female non Klingon. So if I feel like if she would have been like, Oh, it's my dad, people would be like, Wait a minute. Is there a relation? Wait a minute. Is there, you know, I don't know, I i might have made that connection. But when she's like, Oh, it's my mom, then you're like, Okay, well, that's new. That's totally different. Whoa. Never heard of that before. yeah And they continue to play it ah play on that idea throughout the show, which is fun.
00:32:09
Speaker
Still hadn't gotten Torres's makeup down. It's very distracting if I'm being completely honest. It takes a minute. It takes a minute for them to lock it in. I think the Klingons are just hard. I would also think that Neelix's would be extremely hard because his prosthetics have to be far more than everybody else on the show. But his, I think it's like the scraggly hair gets distracting, but his makeup job is on point, like it's beautiful. Balaanis is always like, it just takes a minute before they lock it in.
00:32:35
Speaker
I really like the earlier Neelix versions where he's a little like edgier looking when they make him more like a teddy bear as it like very quickly does I kind of what they added more I think like just with orangey fur whiskers yeah I know I like the one where he's a little more like a dirtbag yeah a little rougher what else do you have A dirt bag. yeah Um, the other one I have is I like when Janeway makes nice with the doctor because it's a good turning point. And I, you know, I've said before, I believe on the show, I don't know. I've said before in life, like the sassy doctor is all good and well for like a few episodes, but I would not want to still have this kind of irritating attitude, full person.
00:33:17
Speaker
in season seven, like seven seasons of this would be really annoying. um But I also feel like the crew is being really, you know, they were they were meeting him with that same kind of energy. So I, I like this turning point. And I like the scene specifically, because it really felt like Janeway was swallowing her pride.
00:33:32
Speaker
Although I don't, I wouldn't say she's super proud of anything in particular, but she was really like humbled by what Cass said where she was like, I have to think about things differently. And I felt that energy when she was approaching the doctor, it was very much like, hmm, you are a member of the crew. I'm telling myself that and you.
00:33:48
Speaker
So I have to treat you like a member of the crew. I don't totally know what that looks like. But how would you like me to treat you? And he's like, Oh, I, I don't know, differently, you know, and they have to kind of like figure it out together. So I really like that moment. And what I love about that, especially is that everything you said is not like you just Cherise is being creative, cable crew is conveying that in her performance. that's why it's like not it's That is why actors are so good. It's like, oh, her lines are the culmination of a feeling that we can see in the performance being conveyed. and That's the wonder of acting. um
00:34:28
Speaker
On top of that, this is a much more understandable version of the doctor where he's simply like, I am in the middle of working. And then sometimes people turn me off and that's annoying. And then sometimes people forget to turn me off and I have nothing to do. And that's annoying, too. And it's like, these are much more reasonable. Yeah, these are much more reasonable than I want to have a family and leave sickbait. It's like, what do you want from? We're trying to get home. like I want to be a celebrity on another planet, because I can sing. And it's like, OK.
00:35:00
Speaker
so That's nice. But also, you're our only doctor. Yeah, exactly. ah Those are the only two so great scenes yet.
Wormhole Exploration and Negotiation Tactics
00:35:10
Speaker
OK. I thought Voyagers, the investigation scene, when they roll up on this micro wormhole that's only 30 centimeters wide, and they send basically like half a tricorder in, a micro probe, into investigate it. I liked it. i Versus when Seven of Nine comes on the ship and later on when the technobabble gets way out of line, the idea that they're kind of doing fake space procedure is really nice, just like step by step. And it's like very simple and it's very quaint. Like knowing what we know, having watched many, many, 30 more years of Star Trek, we know how ridiculous the technobabble gets and how like loosey goosey and instantaneous a lot of stuff goes. But like,
00:35:49
Speaker
even the Romulan being surprised by how they're able to handle variances and all this stuff like all these technical things which are fake jargon to be sure is still really nice. ah It's cool when they go when you see the probes POV all that stuff. um So I thought that was a great scene.
00:36:06
Speaker
I don't know if I want to call us a great scene, but I got to mention it because we're talking about it so much. It's when Kes goes to Janeway to ask yeah to look after the doctor. I had that under great scenes and then I deleted it, but yeah, go ahead. The reason why I didn't put it as a great scene, it has the great idea that again, 14 year old Brian rebelled against, but now adult Brian is like,
00:36:27
Speaker
She does have a point. Janeway does, like it's important, like that's what the episode, but she doesn't finish her drink. but She just, she just like delivers her dunk on Janeway and leaves. And I'm like, eh, it's kind of, but it's like, you see Janeway turn around. So I kind of mentioned it. We're talking about it so much. Um, then I also had the great scene when Voyager makes initial contact with Telekramor, uh, who was first posing as the captain of a cargo ship. And then after the comm deletes to box like, well, the reason why he was saying all that is because he's actually a Romulan. So you probably didn't want to reveal that. I just like that. I just like the mystery of what was going on. All these investigative sequences worked for me. Janeway talks to tell like in her quarters.
00:37:10
Speaker
And basically, it's a negotiation of like, what can I do to prove to you that we are who we say we are? We're a ship, a Federation starship stranded in the Delta Quadrant. Will you help us out? And she's in her nightgown. So it's like she's kind of naked. And this is like an intimate private moment. And that's how bare she's being to this complete stranger. And it's like a phone call. And I think when Star Trek The power of Star Trek is its ability to wow in the quiet moments and the lack of visuals sometimes. like We always talk about the memorable visual effects of Star Trek, but when it is just two people talking, it can be very powerful. That's why Star Trek is great. And, you know, CableGrew generally has so much to do, not only being an authoritative person,
00:37:54
Speaker
And all that, but like here she is practically begging, but like as a starship captain for help, I think was very touching, a very nicely done scene. And obviously knowing that Vinrich cold, the director is in love with cable grew IRL and they're dating like, you know, there's some, sense there's like a nice soft touch to it. I thought it was really great.
00:38:15
Speaker
I actually put as a great scene, the beat where Kess comes in and tells the doctor, hey, didn't you hear? We're all getting out of here.
Time Travel Twists and Non-Human Rights
00:38:21
Speaker
And the doctor's like, well, I guess I'm saying goodbye since so I can't leave. And she kisses him and all that stuff, which I think people might find cringe, but.
00:38:31
Speaker
Let's talk about it now. Kes being an Ocampo who lives only nine years, her having an idyllic memory as the doctor identifies, which I think they forget in the development of the show and the fact that she leaps into things very quickly all makes perfect. Like I went back and rewatch this episode knowing like, well, Kes is two years old, sure, but she only is going to live seven more years. So the idea that she embraces everything in life and she's much seeking everything. She doesn't let a moment pass.
00:38:57
Speaker
right You know what I mean? Like, well, I better tell this thing I care about or this person I care about, I care about them because who knows? I don't have much time. Like, that makes perfect sense to me. So her all of her reasons are justified. The fact that we see, like you said, the doctor can't just be like a cranky toothache for seven years. That's going to be annoying. So like the fact that we see a different side of him. i thought I also thought there was the sadness as much as like they were, oh, as much as you were pointing out the optimism followed by the sadness. Yeah. This was the inverse.
00:39:26
Speaker
or this was like another where he was like, yeah, for the doctor, this was for the doctor. And it's like, he was like, Cassie's, you know, a buddy and yeah now I'm getting my rides and now wait, you're all leaving and I'm just going to be trapped on the ship in the Delta Quadrant. for Are you guys going to self-destruct the ship when you leave or like, yeah well, yeah ah they would have to. I mean, it would have been funny if Neelix and Castor like leave us the ship. We can.
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, we'll take care of it. Oh, here come the K's on. Dang it. Yep, yep. No, but yeah, they'd have to be, they'd have to stop to track the same thing. Yeah, that scene was actually really sad. Yeah. Because it was like, like, that's when we discover as viewers that the doctor's program is integrated into the computer, that it can't be downloaded. that hits part of the systems, that he can never leave. He can't just go to another ship, that he's truly, truly trapped here, and that if everybody abandons ship, he's all alone. And it's like, oh, oh, oh. Because we are like, Cass, we're like, cool, we'll just download you, put you in our backpack, and we'll just beam on over. And he's like, nope, that's not possible. I'm going to still be here. And what a piece of news to receive. We're all leaving in an hour. It's like, oh, OK. Just turn me off before you go. That was actually pretty sad.
00:40:34
Speaker
Yeah. And then the last great scene I had is the scene in the transporter room where they beam the Romulan aboard and Tuvok scans him and he's like, well, this is clearly showing signs of temporal displacement. this and They're like, what year is it? And they find out he's from 20 years in the past.
00:40:50
Speaker
Heartbreaking, great twists. Just a fun twist. Star Trek and time travel, you know. This was a nice... It's always a good time. Yeah, so that's my first best Trek trope, by the way. Going into that is time travel. Like, this is a nice twist on what Star Trek normally does. The surprise time travel nobody expects.
00:41:07
Speaker
Which is a new author voyager, because usually they do time travel on purpose. Although, to be fair, eventually, ah such a good twist that Deep Space Nine would rip it off in the episode, The Sound of Her Voice. OK, well, that is just that's just Star Trek, you know, part and parcel. Like, if you watch any series, you're like, wait, didn't I see this episode before? Yes, yes, you did in another Star Trek show. You've seen this exact thing before, correct?
00:41:34
Speaker
um Yeah, temporal prime directive was one of my best trek tropes as well. Temporal prime directive, unlike the regular prime directive, I think makes a lot of sense. And every time they pull it out, you're like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You can mess up a lot of things. Regular prime directive is kind of dumb. Like every time they pull that card, you're just like, I completely disagree with you and your reasons. Right? But temporal prime directive, you're like, yeah, don't mess anything up. So when they brought this guy to the future, and he was like, whoa, your technology is way more advanced than, than our intelligence officers knew. And then it's like, oh, because we're from 20 years in the future, and technology goes really fast, you know, it changes really quickly.
00:42:07
Speaker
um my first thought was like don't let him see anything you know because it's like you'll mess up the timeline or something but too late now he's already here like what are you gonna do um and he actually seemed like a pretty cool dude after he because he could have been he could have been anybody but he but you know afterwards he was like well that really sucks you guys are stranded and he wasn't he wasn't like thinking like oh what can i take back to my people to make a billion dollars you know what i mean he was like wow that really sucks you guys are stranded i wish there was something i could do but if he wasn't a lonely sad boy then then that would have been totally different it would have been different even if he had one other person on his ship it would have been totally different yep in today's version they might have done that just to add more drama it's like we didn't need any more drama that we know we didn't need any more drama there's plenty of drama in this episode it was the right amount yep any others
00:42:55
Speaker
Um, yes, I had mysterious wormhole classic. yeah Um, I had data pads, which I just freaking love. They look so cool. I want one. I want a data pad. I don't want the kind of to like, I want my Kindle to look like a data pad. I just want to be flatter and just like, well, that was the early intention design for a lot of them.
00:43:16
Speaker
Yeah, I know. yeah yeah but they didn't um And they're great. like Don't get me wrong. But data pads still look way cooler. And it's like, guys, this is 30 years old. Just make me make me something that looks like this. It doesn't even have to function like a real tablet. It could just be like, I could play music on it. Or something real simple. But I just want to hold i just want to hold those things and like hand them to someone.
00:43:37
Speaker
um And then ah one of the best trek tropes was extending human rights. So in this, in Voyager, it's all about the doctor and TNG, it was all about data. um And in Discovery, we've got Zora, you know, but just this idea of like, it's maybe not, maybe it's not human, but it still deserves respect because it is sentient.
00:43:58
Speaker
and is in some way beholden to us. Data wasn't, he could have gone rogue and done whatever he wanted, but the doctor's trapped in the ship. Zorish is trapped as the ship. So there is like some limitations to what they can and can't do. um So I love that as a trope because it makes me, I just love that there's the concept of treating things with respect, even if they're very different from you. That's great. I'm going to kind of do that soft humanity, best trek trope here, positivity.
00:44:28
Speaker
You know, ever in in this episode, there's like a setback and a positive statement. There's a one in four chance that it it is the Alpha Quadrant that this one, Tuvok mentions. Tuvok's such a downer in this episode. yeah Everything he says is ah like ah as a wet blanket. Yeah, it's a wet blanket.
00:44:46
Speaker
But Janeway's like, that means, you know, or this, you know, 75% chance it's not the Alpha Quadrant. She's like, that means there's a 25% chance it is. And every, you know, oh, he died. Well, maybe he sent the message to the Romulans before he died and all this stuff. And then ah the clue the big line is Janeway saying, I promise you, you'll hear from us, she tells us, because we will get back. So like, every setback is met with some sort of positive thinking, which is not a they don't do that as the show goes on, not because they because the episodes become less about they realize like, well, we can't do every second episode about maybe we'll get home this week. So like, right, that was smart. But the idea that they're always optimistic or looking for the bright side of everything um is is very
00:45:32
Speaker
stridently Star Trek like Star Trek should be doing that even though 9-11 happened even though we're in the world that we're in and the fact is is like it's been sunk by all all of our post-modernism we do look at the world and there's the rotten decay and it's hard it's very hard and obviously with Voyager it's a lot easier for the time that it's in and what the premise of the show is it's like well they only have to stay on that mission the writers can focus on This is how these people handle this adversity, and everyone understands that you want to get home. But like if you're like, what does it mean to be a human in the world today? Yes, it can be daunting. And so you just like want to give up. And I just don't like that strange new worlds, you know, like I want them to be
00:46:19
Speaker
Optimistic. I don't want Captain Pike looking out the window, sipping a drink, being like, I don't understand. I don't know how to save kids from being killed right in front of me. You know, I don't want that shit. It's so stupid. Um, that's the best of Star Trek. Technobabble. I'm putting in here as a best trick trope. Like I said, I really liked the investigating the wormhole scene with all the fake science Star Trek. It's kind of like a best worst, right? Technobabble and ticking clock. Depending on how they use it, it can either be really good or really bad.
00:46:46
Speaker
I mean, just the idea of like the probe got stuck and eventually it's going to get crushed. Like they say gravitational eddies, but like it makes sense. Like you sent a camera down a creek, got stuck and now it's just going to get crushed. That makes sense. ah But I like that here that the phase variance, you know, we always hear about phase variances and have to compensate.
00:47:04
Speaker
But here it's like a it's a mystery that continues to the entire episode and because they don't have seven out of nine on board yet that because they haven't as a crew experienced temporal anomalies and variances for years and years like they do in later seasons like it's like two ox, like, well, that explains the variance. It's the time variance um because it's a space-time disruption. That makes sense, a wormhole. And when he explains it, this wormhole doesn't only create a rift in space, it also creates a rift in time. What? What kind of wormhole is this? And it's decaying now, so it's been decaying for centuries. Wait a minute. Did anyone discover this before? Was people just jumping through time and space through the big version of the wormhole?
00:47:49
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. But see, and my recollection of this episode throughout 30 years of remembering it was that the doctor, that the Romulan, that that was an artificial wormhole. That the ah that was always my memory. So I must have, at some point, merged it with something else. Like the Romulan, yeah, the Romulan's artificial singularity that they use the power of their war there starships. but they're Like somehow that must have gotten merged in my brain where I'm like, this is like an artificial wormhole created by the doctor on the other side.
00:48:19
Speaker
Not the case, but yeah, exactly. I still thought the technobabble worked. Enseniger, so Harry
Kim and Torres Relationship Dynamics
00:48:24
Speaker
Kim. um I think that's a good trope. It's kind of like a, it's a bummer because by the end of Voyager, I was so sour on the Harry Kim character and it's like, why?
00:48:34
Speaker
i I love the character in the first season. He's great. And I love that he's eager and he's kind of, he's like's always like, everyone's excited. I mean, I can do this, I can do this, but not in a way that's annoying or in a way that's like, this guy thinks he's smarter than everybody. It's like, I'm just, whatever you need and I can do it. I'm going to try. and he's He's always the like, but it might work for us. That's where he's like, but it could. I mean, what?
00:48:58
Speaker
They're like, if we go back in time, we'll be back in 20 years. Okay, well, let's do that. Let's just go back in 20 years and we'll just like hide or something. And then in 20 years later, we'll be like, surprise and we'll be back. What's wrong with that? And they're like, buddy, buddy, but it could work. It could like, you know, he's the opposite of Tuvok basically, who's like, nothing will work and everything is pointless. Yeah, exactly. But it was also great because even in the moment where Chakoti is like, well, we have to actually do this because we we can't change history that much. We help so much so many people in the Delta Quadrant, even then Garrett Wong as Harry Kim's like, yeah, that's true. but know He's like, even he realized like, yeah, also the fact that Torres, at least Roxanne Biggs Dawson's portrayal of Torres, she's like, she likes Harry Kim. So he's not annoying. And you know, Tom likes a really sweet friendship between us like, Tom and Harry are besties, which I love. And you can tell that was written into the director's notes, like,
00:49:52
Speaker
they Yeah, that's in the Bible. yeah In their Bible, yeah. But the Balana and Harry thing, I doubt was, I think that was just a good chemistry, because she's almost like a big sister to him, you know, like she kind of teases him, it's really, but it's a very playful, friendly relationship that I think is really sweet. And if you notice in that last scene in the transporter room, like this whole time, he's been instant eager, but at the end, he just is like so devastated.
00:50:17
Speaker
And it's Vellana who's like, that's okay. We'll figure something out. Like maybe we could do this. that She was the one who was like, maybe he sent it in his will. Maybe he still sent the message. Like she's kind of picking up the baton that Harry just can't carry because he's like, oh, I tried everything. You know, like it didn't work. And I love that. I love that his enthusiasm is infectious even when he no longer has it.
00:50:39
Speaker
Yeah. You just reminded me that Roxanne Dawson, as Torres, also for the techno babble for my best trek trope, she actually really sells the whole, we can use the communication beam to send a transporter beam just by the simple act of putting her hand over her fist to like, really like we can join the two ideas. So she's like, cause ah even if you're not paying attention, what she's really being like is like, we can make this work. And she's so excited about conveying this plan to Janeway. I thought it really worked.
00:51:09
Speaker
I don't know. i Voyager, not my favorite show. It is your favorite show. It's like, but you can see in the early going, like, even if they didn't have everything figured out, like the energy for its early episodes, much different from, say, TNGs, early episodes, where if they didn't have something figured out, they had an idea of where they wanted to go. yeah and And it worked. i ah Some of it worked, I think. So worse trek tropes.
00:51:33
Speaker
So I have two, and the first is Alpha Quadrant Aliens. I think it totally worked in this episode and it made a lot of sense. I love i love it in the Equinox episodes where you see like, this is what Voyager could have been if they went to the dark side. But other than those kind of little touches, I don't like seeing Alpha Quadrant Aliens in the Delta Quadrant, just in general. I'm like, the Ferengi, what are they doing here? Oh, they found some random Klingon barge going through the Delta Quadrant. I'm like, the whole point of going to the Delta Quadrant is brand new aliens. Like, that's the whole point.
00:52:03
Speaker
so I think there are times when they do it really well, like this episode, but then I think there are times when I'm just like, I don't want to see four more episodes of Ferengi. Like, I just, like, pick an alien we already have here. The only thing that makes sense though, I mean, it all should have just been like, the caretaker brought a lot of,
00:52:21
Speaker
aliens from Star Trek history. and And so maybe occasionally we'll run into them. That's the only way it would make real sense to me. That's what they end up saying is like, Oh yeah, the caretaker just brought all these aliens over the last, you know, years. And then we're just happened to run into them in the vastness of the Delta quadrant on our way home. Cause I guess they weren't going home. They were just chilling here and we ran into them on our, okay, fine. But I just, because they're in the Delta quadrant, I'm like, I don't want to see that. However,
00:52:47
Speaker
Like I said, there are exceptions. Like this is an exception. Equinox is an exception. That was what they said in the notes. They were like, we really wanted to try, at least especially in the first season, stay away from bringing in familiar aliens. But this idea was like too good to pass up. Yeah, I agree.
00:53:02
Speaker
Yeah. And then the second one I have is the extended ticking clock. I liked the ticking clock of the probes going to be smashed in 72 hours. So we got to figure it out. But I feel like everything they did in this whole episode took longer than 72 hours, which I guess it didn't cause we only saw Jamie go to sleep once. So it was like, you know, 48 hours, but.
00:53:19
Speaker
It see felt like this project is bigger than a 72-hour project. So I would have liked them to say... that is That's the note, I think. like I feel like it was within three days. Three days is kind of a long time if you're working around the clock. But to your point, it still seems like it's going to take longer than that to accomplish, to get everyone home. to be How long is it going to take to beam everyone off the ship?
00:53:41
Speaker
It's going to take a while. But also, as we were talking and I was thinking about this as my worst trek trope, I was also thinking they could just use another microprobe. After it gets crushed, they could just put another one in there and then just start the clock over again.
00:53:57
Speaker
Well, you could have gone backwards of like, well, we only have a couple of micro probes or the ticking clock was more like this wormhole is not going to last much longer. Right. And I like that. And I also liked the 72 hours before it's crushed. I liked that, but i I just felt like the project took longer. So maybe they would have said it takes a little longer or something. That was my only note is just extended ticking clocks or like ticking clocks that don't match, right? Where you're like, we only have 30 seconds, but they've been talking for like five minutes and you're like, but they only had 30 seconds.
00:54:26
Speaker
It's kind of like that. That's how it felt. yeah um But other than that, I liked the idea of it a lot. I liked that it was going to get crushed. It all made sense. Like it was a reason why there was urgency, but not so much urgency. Like we only have three hours. They gave them ah enough time for Balana and Harry to try to figure out solutions and to work together and to try different things and to beam some canisters over. And so I feel like they gave it enough. They didn't do too short of a clock.
00:54:49
Speaker
Yeah. No, it was a good clock. Um, I think Kristen and I have labeled this something else previously, but I can't remember what it is. And so I'm just going to say Voyager fools as the worst. Uh, I think the fact that they're assholes to the doctor just really shows the character of that crew.
00:55:07
Speaker
It's like he's the crewman who's being helped by the doctor, so rude to him right to his face. And it's like so pointless. Why are they again? There's there's something in the crew's character that they are. They deserve this punishment of being stranded. These were not good people. Remember when ah when in the very first episode, the chief medical officer was an asshole to Tom Paris and Harry Kim. So like the voice the first officer, Janeway's original first officer, they're all assholes to Tom Paris. Like everyone's kind of like dicks when we met met them. So maybe just they were a crew of assholes. So they deserve this, really. so um The most cosplayable character are moment.
00:55:53
Speaker
Janeway and her pajamas easily. That looks so comfy. It's a great one. I just decided the met the the metallic test cylinder. Yeah, that was pretty cool. That test cylinder was really cool. In the production book that I mentioned, they they have, like ah ah I guess, a full accounting, a transcript of that production meeting, which is excessive. But they're basically like more blinkies, more lights on that test cylinder.
00:56:22
Speaker
so That to me is like classic Trek, that device that we all know is fake and it's just like lights and paints and plastic or whatever. It looks so cool and so futuristic, so legit. Like I love touches like that. You just need one or two of those canisters from time to time. And you're like, yep, yep. It's in the future. in the Hundreds and hundreds of years in the future, clearly from that canister. Now it's time for the line must be drawn here. Great lines. Um, let's see.
00:56:52
Speaker
I only had one line, and that was when the doctor said, let's hope you don't die on the table while you're making up your mind. When the guy was like, if I have to have life-saving surgery, I think he said brain surgery or something, I don't know, I'd have to think twice about this doctor performing it. And he's just like, well, let's hope you don't die while you're making up your mind. Doop, doop, doop, doop. And I just thought that was a good line. Yeah, Robert Picardo is so great at those caddiosides.
00:57:14
Speaker
um Cass, so because he's a hologram, he doesn't have to be treated with respect or any consideration at all? i So I can always say it in Jennifer Lean's breathy voice, but it's still a great point. great like ah this is This is a great line because I just was tickled by it. So it's when they're trying to make initial contact with the other vessel. And so they're like, all right, Captain, we're ready. Send a message. She goes, let's see what happens. This is Captain Catherine Janeway of the Federation Starship Voyager. Do you read? And they get static. And they're like, OK, Captain, try again. And she goes, this is Catherine Janeway of the Federation Ship Voyager. Is anyone receiving this communication? and they're like, okay, we got it this time. Try again. And she goes, this is Janeway, please repeat your last transmission. I just like that the information keeps getting less. I thought that was very. jane way Hello.
00:58:03
Speaker
ah yeah is any anywhere there Yeah, exactly. The next one's gonna be who this that's it. But I like that too, because I don't want her to say this is Captain Catherine Jane Rhea, the Federation ship Voyager. I don't want her to say that four times in a row. Why did you change up the line? I totally agree. i just I'm pointing it out. I thought it was great, because you know I think Janeway is very much like I love Janeway. I think she, I love Kate Mulgrew mainly because Janeway is kind of inconsistent, but at least in the first season they were like, this is Janeway. And then once they needed needed like, oh, we only, they only, I think what happens is they kind of got in their heads of like, we can only give good stuff to Janeway. She's the only one who can deliver what we're giving, which I don't know if I agree with that, but
00:58:46
Speaker
Maybe the actors were jerks behind the scenes. We don't know. But the point is, like, Janeway is this character is really great, where she's kind of no nonsense, but she has so much optimism because the Delta Quadrant hasn't beaten her down yet. So she's kind of no nonsense. Because in, like, season six, when she, you know, by the time late in the run, just go and watch those episodes when they're making first contact with the ship, she's like, this is Captain Janeway, the starship boyager. Who are you? She's like, you're not doing this.
00:59:16
Speaker
ah So in that scene where she's wearing the nightgown, this is a great line. If we were spies, we wouldn't be asking what I'm going to ask you now. We have no way of communicating with Starfleet, with our friends and families. We're hoping you might be able to relay a message for us. Our crew is not large. Each of them could write a short personal message. You'd be welcome to read them all before passing them on. I think you'd be convinced that they're nothing more than the heartfelt words of some very lonely people.
00:59:42
Speaker
ah She delivers the heck out of it, and I just think it's a very nicely written statement. um I'm doing it no justice whatsoever, but I thought it was great. And then we have to include this line, the doctor's line, the EMH's line. If you do leave before you go, would you check to make sure I've been deactivated?
00:59:59
Speaker
um just that was said like its in count he's so he's he He's not sad-sad, but he's like, right yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's still sad. He takes it in stride, but like I'm sad. like As a viewer, I'm like, oh.
01:00:13
Speaker
This is really, this is, again, like, this is a bummer. Yeah, for sure. This episode is very, is very bittersweet. Would this, so would this episode be a fun hollow novel to play out? Absolutely not. I wouldn't play this. I put yes because it's like, how would you approach the scene where she's talking to him over subspace and you're wearing the nightgown? I wouldn't play this game. This wouldn't be fun. You wouldn't be fun? All right. No, I mean. Negotiating with the doctor. What does the doctor want?
01:00:39
Speaker
No, what kind of video game am I playing where I'm just negotiating with people? the whole Every level is a negotiation. Is this some kind of like lawyer game? not my That's not my zone of genius. We talked earlier. In Lower Decks, Boimler and Rutherford play diplomat, so there are people who enjoy these negotiation sims.
01:00:59
Speaker
I mean, yeah, no, I, I wouldn't, I would rather have something with more excitement or, um, if there's a challenge, maybe I like the mental challenge of them trying to figure out how to use the probe. Yeah. If it's Harry Kim or Torres, it might be a more fun. Yeah. Yeah. but For me personally. All right. Uh, the Anton Caridian award for best performance. Um, you know, I left the next two blank. I'm not really sure who to put for either of these. So I'm curious to hear what you decided.
01:01:29
Speaker
Usually when I leave them blankets because I have a sense of that. So I want to hear, you I have an answer, but I want to hear what your sense was. Like if you just throw a dart, you would hope it would hit. Um, I guess for the Anton Caridian, I would probably do Janeway. Yeah. That's what I put. Cause she sells the heartbreak and the hope at the same time. That's what I think sells the whole episode. Why my mom and my sisters enjoyed the episode so much, I think.
01:01:55
Speaker
Um, well, it's like, well, she's not down. I'm not down. Right. Um, let's get to work as one of the first things you said, right? Which is like moving on. And then I think that's cable grew his power. All right. So then the Shatner who really went for it for better or worse, that is the description. You left it blank. Yeah, I left it blank. I wanted to put Jennifer lean because.
01:02:19
Speaker
She's like, he's alive. Just her thing. But I'm, I have to put Von Armstrong because he's doing the serious Romulan voice. I'll see what I can do. But he sounds like a video game voice actor and, and by definition, they all have to go for it. So I'm going to put Von Armstrong and also I think that's why they kept kept bringing him back.
01:02:41
Speaker
They're like, we need the platonic ideal of alien race X and someone that projects authority. And like, that's really what Von Armstrong does. Like when he's playing Admiral Forrest, whenever he has to be subtle, it's those are not enjoyable scenes with all due respect. and he's When he's Admiral Forrest telling Archer to do whatever or like entertaining Archer's and energy and he's like okay that's great but do this like then he's great as an authority figure, and that's what he projects very well. ah We rarely tried out this award and I'm, I'm surprising you this I didn't put it in the rundown. The Astro Burger Award for food styling.
01:03:23
Speaker
and i'm i'm saying We have to give it to the vegetable bullion and the spinach juice that Janeway replicates. but yeah We could give it to that, but really, yeah, the styling, the bowls that they had are the same style as the the cup that Picard usually drinks out of, which I noticed. And I was like, that is genius. I love that little thread to be like, it looks like it was made by the same designer, Utopia Phoenicia.
01:03:50
Speaker
you know Well, the reason why I'm mentioning is usually the Astroburger Award for food styling is like not good food styling. I mean, if it looks good, we will do it. But I'm going to say that it was just basically green juice and yellow juice to represent broth. And they just didn't look like anything. If you're going to use replicator energy to make that, that seems like a waste of time. to be perfectly honest. Just be hungry. Just put your vegetable bullion in a container, Janeway, and pull it out of the fridge. It didn't seem like it was very hot or anything. There's nothing to it. Shoot to thrill, most exciting image or sequence? This one didn't have a ton of exciting images in my mind, but I did like the canister transportation. I liked that whole scene of seeing it materialize and then him pick it up. I was like, that's cool.
01:04:44
Speaker
It's like, I never get tired of transports. Like they just always look cool. I'm like, how do you do that? I've tried to do that special effects so many times and I can't do it with my limited knowledge of special effects. Yeah. Um, yeah. You got to read one of those production books. They'll tell you how they did it. And then you can try to match it in, in your computer. Uh, I put the POV of the micro probe going through the micro wormhole. It was like when you go inside the comet and start tours, the original conception of start tours.
01:05:15
Speaker
But I like that. I like the jerky camera and then the small tunnel. I was as excited rewatching this as I was as a 14 year old going like, we don't see that. How often do we get to see the f probes footage being live streamed to the ship and then it's too small? I thought that was fun. I was thrilled. What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy? I put that probes can be used as relays through wormholes. That seems important. Everyone should know that.
01:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what there's relays on the other side of the wormhole in Deep Space 9. And then there's an accident that causes the wormhole to kind of always permanently be be open, kind of on a microscopic level, which is how the relays work. ah That's a good one. I have a ah more involved idea. This idea came to me like a lightning rod. And I know they're not going to use it, but it was super cool.
01:06:10
Speaker
so
01:06:12
Speaker
Telac says, you match the data transmission to the phase amplitude of our comm signal. This would be an incredible breakthrough in subspace field mechanics. So they'll teach subspace field mechanics, of course. And that is involved. This is all when they're talking about beaming through time. So like they figured out how to do a transportation transporter beam that's how he's like you figured out something in substance field mechanics that's one thing but what do they beam through the test cylinder and so Sharice that test cylinder which they say is basically like what would it be like to transport a person right it's like got biological I think Starfleet Academy
01:06:52
Speaker
would treat this like the home ec project of taking care of an egg. It's like doing tests with the test cylinder is like the the lesson they'll teach like, how can you transporting bodies through subspace warp field effects, any any Star Trek II thing, these test cylinders suddenly become so maybe the project is like the the lesson is like, what can you do with the body in space as figured out through these test cylinders so take it home take it to the bleachers and drop it off and see if that's right that's right take it to the lab or take it in space with you and and study it and then write up the effects and we know your mom can't buy you a new one if you break it that's right we will know if you replicate this we will know
01:07:37
Speaker
I made a transporter double of it. Damn, that's a good loophole. Yeah, it really is. I made two because I knew I was going to mess up this first one. That's right. That's right. And I got to study what would happen on the doubling effect. Yeah, that's a genius idea. A
Episode Evaluation and Character Dynamics
01:07:51
Speaker
minus. yeah A minus because a student did that last quarter. ah Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? I said no. No, it couldn't have. And no, it wouldn't have made it better. Yeah, I thought it was appropriately horny when you put Janeway in that nightgown. That's it.
01:08:07
Speaker
Yeah, the only other thing I could think of is making a little more tension between Balana and Harry, because Harry is so like asexual for the first six seasons. um But I don't think that was necessary. And I think it may have taken away from the message that they were conveying between like, you know, I don't have anybody at home, but maybe not maybe it would have added to it. um But that was the only scene that I could think of where there could have been a little more, and it wouldn't have been over the board or cringy or like weird.
01:08:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. ah But to your point about how she's like a big sister to him, that would have been. Well, then she wouldn't have been a big sister to him, yeah but you're right. Different kind of relationship. You're totally right. Like, cause then you could just tweak it where like she's seeing a side of him. shes He's just being more of the person she already liked and that would make her attracted to him. That's a good one. I like that. Um, cause you already got Tom being like the big brother best friend. So you don't need him to have a sister, but I think that, yeah, like you said, they didn't know they treated Garrett Wong and Harry Kim very strangely.
01:09:06
Speaker
and we can assume why.
Episode Rating and Listener Interaction
01:09:07
Speaker
All right, so Trek, Merry or Kill, Eye of the Needle. This one is a Trek for me. Yeah, ah for 30 years I held on to this being a Merry, or like I was like, this is one of Voyager's best episodes. But in rewatching, I'm like, it really takes a while to get going.
01:09:24
Speaker
But I think it is a good episode. It is a great episode. It's ah it's a track, a very strong track, I'd say. The ending is so great. I almost want to put it as a Mary. And I think all the doctor stuff. thing too I was like, Oh, this ending is so good. I kind of want to be a Mary. And the same thing. The doctor stuff is really good. I want to be a Mary. So then why not? Because the episode as a whole, though, to me, isn't a Mary.
01:09:44
Speaker
I don't know. It's like we had that one we had that one episode of Discovery that was similar, right? Where it was a Trek Plus and we were both like something about it just isn't quite there, but it's like almost there. I feel like that with this episode, I can't tell you what's missing um because it's a very good episode, but it's not a Mary for me. It's just not, I don't know. I don't know what's missing. Filter in a Michael Pillar comment. This is something that only Star Trek could do.
01:10:08
Speaker
And I agree with that you could not do you could do a message in a bottle episode like I don't recall there being a Gilligan's Island episode where there. having a communication with someone that's in the past. You could do that. I guess they could have. It's a sitcom. But I don't know. I guess it I try not ah that the whole point of Check Mary Kill is to try to take some feeling out of it with all the grades. But you're right. Like at the end of the day, where does this roll up on in terms of like, it's because it's not really about more than what it's it's not saying anything more than what it's about. That's what it is. It's not transcendent. That was the piece.
01:10:45
Speaker
Because I was thinking last night, like I was thinking about other episodes that I absolutely adore of Voyager, and I was just like comparing and contrasting like what makes that bigger, and it is that piece of like transcendence where you're like, this makes me think about humanity differently, or myself differently, a little bit with The Doctor, which I think is why it's such a high track.
01:11:02
Speaker
um and a little bit with the Romulans and putting aside their differences but it's not one of those things where it's like whoa that really made me think because it doesn't really it just kind of is like wow what a good story but it doesn't make me go wow let me read reconsider things now. Yeah you brought up those two points and I was going to add in the positivity but then I think we landed on it. So the ending, the twist ending, I think is great, but I think Janeway being like moving on is kind of what makes it go, like it's almost like the reset button in a way. Like we are already knowing like this isn't going, this affected us, but next week it's not gonna matter. right And so it's kind of like, okay, well, there's something kind of disposable about it at the same time. Obviously with the doctor stuff,
01:11:48
Speaker
That's going to continue on. And so surprisingly that again, rewatching 30 years later, I'm so struck by how strong that resonates now. But yeah, this is, this is as close to a Mary as I think you can get without being a Mary. h It's pretty high up there. So yeah, I agree. Okay.
01:12:08
Speaker
If people disagree though, you can always email us at trekmerrykpod at gmail dot.com. Maybe I will air out your grievance um but on an episode in future episodes. In the meantime, if you are enjoying the show, you can find Shreese elsewhere. Shreese, where can people find you? You can find me on YouTube by typing in at the sci-fi savage, and you can join me for our weekly live streams where we talk all things Star Trek.
Next Episode Preview and Special Hints
01:12:34
Speaker
Trek Mary K Pod ah on social media, trekmarykillpod.com on the web where you can see all of our standings, how many voyagers have we trekked, married, and killed. ah Next week, we're going to conclude our look back on the 30 years of Star Trek Voyager with the season finale, which was kind of not accidentally, but not intended as the season finale. It's gonna be Learning Curve, which I have not seen since it aired 30 years ago, so that'll be fun to look back on.
01:13:04
Speaker
And I have no recollection of what that episode is from that title. So I'm really curious to see if it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or if I'm like, wait, what? It's gonna be fun. Also, there's a non-zero chance we might be interrupt well we might have a special episode.
01:13:20
Speaker
to look at the Section 31 movie. Just putting that out there. I have to get a lot of ah things to fall into place for that to happen. But the Section 31 movie premieres this week, and ah that's a TV movie, so that would be in our purview, and I kind of want to look at it. So we'll see what happens there. But return next week for our Voyager look back. So until next week, TMK out. Bye.