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Ep. 84: Jobs for the girls - why tech isn't just a boy's job
216 Plays11 months ago
In this episode we talk to Bharti Lim, who is determined that young women should have as many opportunities to work - and claim senior roles - in tech. She says the reason girls often don't consider careers in tech is because they don't see women like them in the industry. She wants to change that, and joins me on the podcast to tell me how she thinks parents can help.
7:00 - Parents will be reassured to know that Bharti's teenage years weren't full of perfect moments, yet she still has a very successful career in tech.
10:00 - Growing up in an Asian family with first generation parents. Experiencing depression and self-harm as a teenager.
15:00 - Masking as a teenage girl with ADHD.
19:00 - The value of counselling and psychotherapy to understand yourself and your feelings, particularly to undo unhealthy patterns adopted in teenage years.
27:00 - How to inspire more girls into tech. Some examples of jobs in tech, and why girls might be more tech-savvy than they realise. Why tech isn't a boy's job.
38:00 - How to encourage interest in tech, and why it's more glamorous than you think.
Who is Bharti Lim?
Bharti is a cyber security strategy manager at Computacenter, who run work experience days. She has worked in the cyber security industry for over 18 years, and has realised the importance of being visible, not only in the workplace, but for the next generation of young women in tech to see that there is no such thing as 'a man's job'.
She is passionate about initiatives around diversity and inclusion, gender and ethnicity, and is an active advocate of change. Bharti was a finalist for the CRN Women in Channel Awards 2021 and a SHE awards winner in 2020. Her TEDx talk explores how we can positively redefine the 'old boys' network'.
More from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy, a resource for midlife parents of teens.
Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast please get in touch.
You can find more from Helen Wills on parenting teenagers on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.
For information on your data privacy please visit Zencastr's policy page
Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about yourself or a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
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Transcript
Introduction to Teenage Kicks Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I think asking for, I always say this and it applies to everybody, asking for help is not a weakness, it's a sign of strength. So trying to run away from what's going on and thinking that it will just disappear, it never disappears because you carry it with you. Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast, where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager.
00:00:31
Speaker
I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult time in the teenage years but came out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to parents and young people who might be going through the same.
Interview with Bartie Lim: Women in Tech
00:00:45
Speaker
Today I'm chatting with Bartie Lim, B to me and those of you who know her on Instagram. Bartie B is a cyber security manager who thinks there aren't enough women in senior positions in the workplace. She's worked in the cyber security industry for over 18 years and is often the only female in the team.
00:01:06
Speaker
Beers realise the importance of being visible not only in the workplace but for the next generation to see that there is no such thing as a man's job. I'm going to ask Bea what she thinks young women need to know and how we as their families can support them to achieve what they want to achieve. Bea
00:01:27
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for joining me. I met B, well, I've met B before, but I know B most recently from an exceptionally good TEDx talk in the very first TEDx St Albans about a month ago, and it went down so well. How did it feel? I know that's not what we're here to talk about, but how did it feel being up there on that stage? It's like out of body experience. So I didn't
00:01:56
Speaker
When I did the talk, when I stepped off the stage, firstly, I was like, it's like a huge dopamine hit, but I also didn't realize what I'd actually said. So even though you've practiced and rehearsed it and you've got a plan, um, I couldn't remember exactly what I'd remembered to say and what I didn't say. And if I went off script and so it was only when I watched the video back that I was like, Oh, I didn't say this. So I did say this, or I did do this. So I couldn't remember any of it. It was just.
00:02:24
Speaker
Very odd. And it's also, for me personally, and I don't know about the other speakers, if they felt the same, I felt like I was being narrated while I was talking.
The TEDx Talk Experience
00:02:34
Speaker
So I was talking to myself going, oh, like, oh, that person's nodding. Yes, that's happening. Somebody's smiling. That means this makes sense. While I was still talking the entire time.
00:02:45
Speaker
And you know, so it's really weird. It's the strangest thing. Almost like you dissociate from what you're doing because it's so stressful. Yeah, I think because there's so much pressure that you put on yourself to do the best delivery on the day and either aware that it's being recorded, it's going to be put on YouTube, you know, and hopefully your message is going to get across to hundreds, maybe thousands of people that you really want it to be perfect. You know, it's not often you're going to get an opportunity to do something like a TEDx.
00:03:15
Speaker
And so I think it's the pressure we put on ourselves to be so perfect in that 10, 12 minutes lot. There is just like this whole different experience that kind of happens as you're doing it. And you say 10 or 12 minutes, does it feel like an eternity when you're up there? So no, actually in all the rehearsals, I felt like it was really long. So when I did the rehearsal, when I practiced at home, I thought, oh, this talk's going on for a bit.
00:03:45
Speaker
When I did the actual talk, because I really got into the talk, like after the first 30 seconds where I was really nervous, you know, I thought it finished really quick. So then I was really paranoid that I'd forgotten a paragraph. Right. Oh, it's over. Did I forget to say something? Um, so yes, it doesn't feel very long once you're on the stage. Um, yeah, it's just, it is, it is no, it's like nothing I've done before.
00:04:14
Speaker
Yeah. Oh God, I can imagine. And you've just kind of alluded to the fact that you, you might've gone off script. Is that normal? Do TEDx speaking and TED talk, do you just add lip at points? I think a lot of people, a lot of people do their scripts in different ways. So some people have points and then they'll talk around their point. I can't work like that. I've never been able to work like that. So I, I learned my script word for word. Right. Um, some people didn't do that. And so then they wouldn't have felt they went off script.
00:04:44
Speaker
Whereas I did do that. So I was really consciously aware of things that I didn't say, but then there was parts where I didn't realize I hadn't said them. So it was fine. Um, but there was one bit where I realized I hadn't said it and then I kind of stopped. I thought, Oh, I've got to carry on now. Cause I'd already started the next part.
00:05:04
Speaker
And I couldn't go back because of the way I'd written my script. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, then it would have looked fumbly. I'm talking about this thing in the back of my head is year nine or 10 GCSE English students who have to deliver a talk at school.
Teenage Struggles and Mental Health
00:05:22
Speaker
And I always imagine, I mean, both my kids barely much took it in their stride, but I always imagine a room full of terrified, like 15 year olds thinking, I've got to deliver this perfect speech and learning it with knowing that they've got to engage with their audience and give eye contact, because that's what it's about. So there's tips in TED Talks. It's interesting to find out how you did it and that other people don't necessarily do it in the same way.
00:05:51
Speaker
No. And I think it is really, it is very scary. I'll be completely honest. Um, I just did a keynote this week and, um, even though I'd done the TEDx, I think everyone just expects that you're going to be brilliant and you're not going to be scared or nervous, but you still are. And whether it's something I do for five minutes or 10 minutes, or this was 30 minutes that I did the keynote, it's still scary. Um,
00:06:19
Speaker
And I think I've watched speakers who have presented and they've said that they don't really enjoy speaking because it's not a natural thing to everybody to just get up on a stage and do a talk. So I think it is something that teenagers definitely will find, of course they're going to find scary, especially in front of all their friends who, you know, they feel like are going to criticize them. I did it to an audience of people that I didn't really know. I knew a handful of people in the audience, but they were never going to come up to me and go,
00:06:48
Speaker
Oh, well, that was, that was really bad. You know, and I think, I think that's the worst part of being a teenager is that they're just completely honest, aren't they? Like they don't. Yeah. That was rubbish. Um, and I think, so I think it must be worse to do it as a teenager because the criticism, there's no filter on that criticism. Whereas I think as an adult, we realize that we're actually, that person might have struggled, but it took a lot for them to get on the stage as a teenager. That doesn't occur to you.
00:07:18
Speaker
No. It's just like, well, why don't you practice more? You know, that kind of thing. So I think it must be harder as a teenager to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're going to talk about this, but that GCSE talk may just be the very first of many much more polished and much better as you gain knowledge and experience and confidence.
00:07:40
Speaker
talks and speeches that young people may end up doing in their lifetime. So it's good to start practicing. Talking of teenage years, B, we always begin the podcast with a little bit of a dive into the guest's own teenage years. So I'm wondering, are you willing to share a little bit about your own teenage years with the listeners? Yeah, I can share my teenage years. They were pretty
00:08:10
Speaker
teenage-like at that time. It was a long time ago. I feel really bad when I say this. When I was doing my GCSEs, I skipped school a lot. I'd go in, I'd register, and then I'd bunk off school. Right. What was that about? I don't know. I think I just had some friends and we just did that. I don't know, a mixture of
00:08:40
Speaker
I thought it was cool, like being rebellious. I don't know what it was. You just do it and you don't think about it too much. So I did do a lot of that. I regret doing it now, but obviously it's too late to do that. But then my life turned out okay. So yes, I did a lot of that. I used to go and get drunk. What, when you should have been doing physics?
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah, when I should have been at school and you know, all of the things that you did, especially like when we were young, you know, somebody got, I'd send somebody to the off license and be like, oh, can you get me a bottle of alcohol and all of the funny colored drinks that you had back then, you know, that I'd never dream of drinking now. No. Well, you say when we were young, but actually I think that's an age old thing that's been going on since the stone age. They were probably sneaking out of the camp to see if they could make some homebrew.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah so I mean I did all of the typical things that like a lot of teenagers did back then. I don't know what they do now because mine aren't quite teens yet so I'm dreading those. They do all the same things. Let me warn you. I'm dreading those years. So yeah so I did all of those things. I skipped school but I also you know I think I was I think I was unhappy as well for a lot of my teenage years. Not because of family or any of those things you know I had I grew up in Birmingham and
00:10:02
Speaker
You know, my parents wanted the best for me. I'm first generation Indian here from the family. So, you know, my dad's siblings were actually born in the country. So we have a very, I'd say a very Westernized Asian family on my dad's side. So yeah, so, you know, I did all of these things, but yeah, I think I suffered from depression while I was a teenager. I talk about on my Instagram page that I suffer from depression now. Right.
00:10:30
Speaker
and I suffered from post-natal depression quite severely. But looking back at those years now, I think I suffered while I was a teen as well. You just didn't realise at the time. Well, people didn't talk about it then, did they? So you don't really know what was going on. I suffered so badly that I used to self-harm, but I didn't realise why I was doing that.
00:10:56
Speaker
You know, you kind of, as a teenage, you might try and look at things and think, oh, well, is it because this has happened or is it because of my friends or, but actually I just think it was just my mental health. I think it was just me, um, and how I saw the world and how, how I took that on myself because I couldn't find logical answers for things because my brain obviously was working in a different way. So I think there was a mixture of those things. And I think recently I've started wondering if I actually suffered from or suffer from ADHD.
00:11:26
Speaker
because that's related to things like depression and self-harming and things like that. So it's not something I've had assessed, but it does make me wonder if it's all kind of related. And it's only now that I'm in my forties, I started thinking about actually, maybe that is an explanation for why all of those things are happening. Because when I look back, I had a pretty happy family life. There was nothing I can pick out and say, Oh, well, that was wrong. Um, so yeah, it's really difficult to know, but it was,
00:11:57
Speaker
It was a kind of traumatic childhood, I guess a teen year, teen years in that sense. But on the other side, you know, like I said, I had a happy family. I had friends, you know, we were doing fine. Yeah.
00:12:12
Speaker
I think quite a lot of people listening will relate as parents to this and are worrying about their own teenagers, their own children and wondering what might be going on for them and teenagers that notoriously find it difficult to talk to their parents. Were your parents aware of how you were feeling? No, not at all. And I think that's even more so because
00:12:39
Speaker
in South Asian culture, we all talk about mental health doesn't exist. So even now, it's still a very taboo subject. Well, and I suppose, yeah, it's different for everybody, isn't it? And different depending on your own personality and your own family. Even though you say you had a really good family and you had friends, nothing on the face of it would cause this, but it's just how you were feeling. Yeah. And I think it is
00:13:08
Speaker
Like I said, it was South Asian families specifically, you know, even now mental health is such a big issue, like such a taboo subject. Nobody wants to talk about it. Nobody believed that it exists. So that thinking when I was 17, there's no way that anybody would have put that down to any of those things. They wouldn't have picked up on that. They would have just thought she's just being a teenager. She's just being rebellious. You know, if I lock myself in my room, I'm just being a teenager. And there's nothing to show that, but I think also I became like,
00:13:38
Speaker
the master of hiding it. And I think that's true for most people that suffer from depression. So even as an adult, when I suffered, you know, my husband didn't know because I was so good at putting on a face, the show of everything that even the health worker, when she came around, she said, I'd never guess that you were suffering. So people around me could not spot it because I was so good at putting on this persona of the mum who is
00:14:08
Speaker
going and doing baby classes, loves her baby, you know, gets ready in the morning. I'm not in bed. I'm not staying in the house. I was leaving the house. I was doing all sorts of things. I made lots of friends. There was nothing that would have made you think that I was suffering and suffering as badly as I was. Well, it's not the poster, is it, that we all expect of poor mental health and challenging mental health. We just expect to see someone that's struggling. But quite often, especially with postnatal depression, it is a mum who is
00:14:38
Speaker
doing all the things and, as you say, putting on the face and protect, because that's what society, you know, we've got this precious child who we absolutely adore and we've got to, we've got to be happy. So we make, we mask. Yeah. And I think that's, that, that's something that I really realised again, related to the, to the ADHD, um, is that maybe I, you know, I spent a lot of my time masking even as a teenager and passed that when I went on to university because
00:15:07
Speaker
I found a coping mechanism for the depression.
Therapy and Overcoming Past Traumas
00:15:11
Speaker
So then I didn't think there was a problem anymore. And so I carried on through university as a young adult in this bubble of, well, I'm fine because nothing's affecting me. But I think I'd created these coping mechanisms where if I look back now.
00:15:26
Speaker
I was quite lonely because I'd kind of kept everyone away from me so that I didn't have to deal with everything. And, you know, so I think the worst part of that whole situation is because I never dealt with it as a teenager. I then carried it all the way through until I suffered from postnatal depression. So, you know, I'm 35 at this point when I finally dealt with all of the problems that were going on in my head by going to counseling.
00:15:53
Speaker
And actually the counselor took me all the way back to when I was a teen and all the things that had gone through my mind and all the pressures that I felt and all of those things. And then we kind of resolved them. And now I openly talk about my mental health, but actually I'm in the best place I've ever been. So ironically, postnatal depression fixed my brain. Right. Cause it forced you to deal with it finally. Yeah.
00:16:19
Speaker
That expression you use of being lonely because you're keeping everyone away from you, I'm thinking that that's emotionally rather than physically because you've talked about having friends. And I imagine growing up in a culture where mental health is not spoken about, that's a natural reaction, right? Just to shut it down and pretend it's not there. Yeah, but I also think back then when I was 17,
00:16:42
Speaker
Mental health was not a thing. No, it wasn't. I didn't even know it existed. So there's no way that I would have known that's what it was. So, you know, I just put it down to, you know, maybe I should just keep certain friends, the friends that weren't going to cause me any upset because I didn't know how to deal with any of those things. But unfortunately it meant I did that through my university years. You know, I kept my distance from a lot of people. So I had friends, but they weren't,
00:17:09
Speaker
I wouldn't open up to them for fear of what had happened if I did open up to them. How would they feel about me? What would they think about me? All of those things. If you had feelings. Yeah. So if they knew what I was like as a person, maybe they won't really like me. And it's something I've really struggled with is that, do people like me for the person I am or the person they think that I am? Yeah. And then in which case I'm back to masking because I'm trying to be something that I think that they are happy to see.
00:17:38
Speaker
And so yeah, it is, I think it is one of these things that unless it's dealt with as a teenager, if you, if you are a teenager suffering, it does unfortunately shape a lot of your life. And I think I'm very, very lucky that, you know, I met my husband and I opened up to him. He was the person I opened up to. And he essentially was like, he became my best friend whilst he was my boyfriend and
00:18:05
Speaker
he, yeah, and then everything kind of changed because of that. So I think I'm quite lucky that it all worked out for me. But I can imagine that for a lot of people, it doesn't. Well, you were talking to someone who also who did not grow up in an Asian culture that doesn't talk about mental health. But in that culture, I'm a little bit older than you. And yeah, I can, I can relate to everything you're saying.
00:18:28
Speaker
because I've done it as well. And it's taken a lot of therapy for me to discover that that's what I was even doing in the first place. Yeah. And that's, that's what I think was really shocking is when I, you know, you got, when you go to post, like when you go to counseling and therapy after you've had postnatal depression, you think you're just going to talk about that. Yeah. And then she was like, no, we're going to talk about all of these things, all of these years of your life. And then suddenly I started realizing there were so many things. Um, and so yeah, it was, it, it was eye-opening.
00:18:58
Speaker
But I felt like I managed to unload it finally instead of carrying it with me. And the big reason why I wanted to do that is because I didn't want to pass on that trauma to my children. You know, it's like there is, um, you know, there is the idea that you just pass on your emotional trauma to your children because you don't know how to handle it. Also the way that you might've been brought up and the way that, you know, society around you was because I was Asian and I was female. There was a lot of things that I shouldn't have done that I did do.
00:19:26
Speaker
And so I didn't want any of those things to be passed on to my children because I'd never dealt with them. Yeah. And I'm actually going to just come in with my own stuff here, but I really, I'm a bit of a counselling evangelist. My kids hate me for it. And I feel like I've probably done the worst thing I could possibly have done from their point of view by becoming a counsellor during their teenage years, because they really don't want to talk about this stuff. But
00:19:55
Speaker
It is really just about knowing that it's okay to have feelings. It's not rocket science, that's what it boils down to, but we've taught ourselves over the years, it's not okay to have feelings and we have to show up as what other people expect us to be in order to be accepted. And that takes a lot of breaking down and moving on from.
00:20:23
Speaker
I hear what you're saying about teenagers needing, if they're in that state, needing to work it out and see someone about it. And it's not, I just want to, to anyone that's young that's listening, I just want to tell you that it is not a stigma to need a counsellor. It doesn't mean you're broken.
00:20:45
Speaker
and messed up, it just means you just need help seeing a little bit of a different perspective to be healthier and feel so much happier. Because I do feel like a lot of teenagers, some teenagers will definitely make use of the school counselor, it's really a thing now and that's great. And then others run them out because it's seen as stigmatising. And what would you say to any young person that's listening
00:21:14
Speaker
Yeah. Let's just start with one question at a time. I'm, I'm terrible for asking two questions in one sentence. I think, um, I think asking for, I always say this and it applies to everybody asking for help is not a weakness. It's a start. It's a sign of strength. So trying to run away from what's going on and thinking that it will just disappear. It never disappears because you carry it with you. So it's not, you know, it's not like luggage. You can just leave in one place. You you'll have to carry that luggage with you and then you'll add more luggage and more luggage. And eventually it will weigh you down.
00:21:44
Speaker
So, um, that's, that's kind of my view on it is as a teenager, I, I carried that luggage all the way with me and it just got heavier and heavier and heavier till the point of where when it did get really traumatic for me as you know, when it got to postnatal depression, I was, it wasn't even just that situation. It was all of those years of luggage I've been carrying that were now finally, I couldn't hold it anymore. So I think that's, that's what I would say is that you don't want to carry that with you.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you put it so well. It's like carrying a massive great backpack full of stress that you can't put down. What would you say to parents who really believe their child needs to see a cancer and needs some support, but knows that approaching their child will not go down very well? That's the difficult question. Yeah. I think for me, what I hope my children will see is that
00:22:40
Speaker
I was willing to talk about what was going on. Because if I talk about it as an adult, surely that would make it easier for them to understand it as a child that actually, if I can't cope, then it's okay for them to not cope. And if I need to get help, then maybe they can also get help too. And so I, you know, I say that all the time, like my boys been like, Oh, where are you going today? Mommy, I'm going to see my friends. Oh, what do you need to see them? I was like, because I need to be with other, other people that are like me who are my friends, I can have some fun with.
00:23:11
Speaker
and have a laugh with because I work so hard and because I do this and because I do that. And so they can relate to that because they want to see their friends. So I think that's the big thing because I think as adults, if we keep going, well, no, everything's fine. We can cope. We cope so well. They don't know what your younger years are like. So I think either sharing what your younger years were like, or the fact that you do now need help or do get help on a regular basis makes it easier for them to understand it's okay.
00:23:40
Speaker
if they need help. So that's what I think. I don't have teens. So I can't, I haven't got to that stage, but it's one of the things that I have been doing now. So when I thought about, should I share about my mental health? My boys are going to see this in the future. Actually, I want them to see it because I want them to know that my mum went and got some help. So it's okay. It doesn't mean that I have to pretend everything's fine because my mum didn't pretend it was fine. Yeah. Well, isn't that
00:24:13
Speaker
That's the whole point of growing up with the generation that we grew up in. My parents were war children and so much stoicism happened after the war. I always knew when something was wrong with them, but they would never tell me. They would lock it down and tell me that I didn't need to worry about it. It was all going to be fine. And so that's what we internalize, isn't it? And I think that's it. So for me,
00:24:42
Speaker
Being an Asian female, I went against the grain. So I went away for university and I moved away and I wanted a career. I moved out of home before I got married, which is not normal for a lot of Asians. I bought my own property and then I married someone that wasn't Asian. And all of those things my mum didn't do. And so a lot of my trauma was caused by the fact that
Cultural Expectations vs Personal Choices
00:25:10
Speaker
I'd gone against the grain. My mum didn't approve. People around me didn't approve. But the biggest one was my mum never said, it's OK. It's OK that you've done that because we're all living here. We have to progress with where we live. Can't expect you to not become more Westernized. I can't expect that. But she never said that to me at any point. And had she said that, I don't think I would have
00:25:40
Speaker
had so much extra baggage to carry because of that. So I think those are the things like, if we can say, actually, it's okay, if you're not okay, it's fine. And I say that to myself all the time, because he has ASD. And I say, if you just need five minutes, just take five minutes, I'm not going to be upset because you took five minutes for yourself. You know, but I will be upset if you didn't do that. And then you get angry, and then you hurt someone. Because I gave you the option to take the five minutes that you should have taken.
00:26:09
Speaker
And, you know, he'll, because, you know, he can, because he has got ASD, sometimes he can get really emotional and then doesn't know how to handle it and can blow up. And so that's what we try and say to him is that you just need to take five minutes and we don't mind how you take that five minutes, but that five minutes might change everything that happens for the next hour. And, you know, and so I say to him on a regular basis, I just need five minutes. I need five minutes to myself so that I can,
00:26:37
Speaker
You know, cause I don't want to shout at you because you've done something. I just need five minutes. And if I can show that I'm doing it, then hopefully he'll realize that he can do it.
00:26:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that that's really important. And I've got a number of episodes about teenage depression and anxiety. So I'll put a couple of links in the show notes. If anybody if this has brought up something for anybody. That's not really what we were here. I'm so pleased that we did. It's such a valuable conversation. And it's never it never gets too old to stop being important. But
00:27:13
Speaker
What I wanted to talk to you about is your mission to get more young women into senior positions in the workplace. That's come about, I assume, because of your own experiences in business and the fact that, as you've said quite openly, you are often the only woman in the workplace in your surroundings. But there is a...
00:27:37
Speaker
There does seem to be, if not a glass ceiling, a kind of level at which women start to peel away. I'm interested in what your view is on that.
Encouraging Girls in Tech Careers
00:27:49
Speaker
So I think before we even get to management, I think we just need to try and get more girls into tech. Right. And I think that's one of the things that I've gone into schools to talk about. I think there's, I think there is a problem because, you know, we're expecting teachers to give all this knowledge to them.
00:28:06
Speaker
And the reality is that they don't know all the careers that exist. Um, because why would they, there's hundreds and thousands of them and you know, the teachers are all going to teach the curriculum as well as everything else and get them through the exams. So, um, I know that there's lots of career fairs and I take part in those, but I think career fairs are very, they're very difficult things for, if you're walking past to ask questions about and getting enough information.
00:28:30
Speaker
about what's really involved in a role. So I go into schools and I do talks as well to GCSE and A level students and try and encourage the girls to think about careers in tech when they haven't. So I've gone into schools and, you know, I've asked, oh, you know, who, who thinks they want to go into tech? And it's always the boys, always the boys that raise their hands, you know, and you ask them, what do you want to do? And, you know, they, they all want to do like games programming or something like that.
00:28:56
Speaker
Um, which is fine because at least they've got the point where they think they're going to have a career in tech. Um, but the girls would never put their hands up hardly ever, if any. And so I always put them on the spot and say, well, can you tell me why you might not want to? And a couple of them generally tend to say, well, it's not something I'm interested. I'm not very good at it. Um, and until you start talking about, well, you know, you think that you're not good at tech, but you own a mobile phone.
00:29:25
Speaker
And on that mobile phone, you use lots of social media apps and you might do some online shopping. So you might shop at Boohoo or wherever it is that they might be shopping. Um, and you know, you do, your parents are doing online shopping and you're involved, like you might have some banking that you do on there. Like, you know, some of these bank accounts that teenagers have and you know, you use WhatsApp and all of these things that you talk to all your friends on. This is all technology.
00:29:53
Speaker
And it all requires something. So I was like that advert that you get that tells you that there's a sale on your favorite website. Someone technically, someone is doing something technical behind that. Yeah. Whether you might not see it or not, you know, and all of those apps that you're using require somebody to do something technical. So whether it's just like secure the data to make sure that when pictures are uploaded, that they're done in a certain size format, you know, all of these things, somebody has helped program that or think about that.
00:30:22
Speaker
or market it, there are so many different jobs in tech, but they don't realize that those are all jobs in tech. Absolutely. Everything we do now is on, is, you know, it has some element of tech. There is very little we do. You know, even if you physically go to a supermarket, there is, you know, the, the tools and everything else it's all tech, you know, and all the stock take of what's there or all of that is managed in some technical way.
00:30:50
Speaker
And so I think that's one of the things that you don't do. And I think it's just as a consumer, you kind of use things, but you don't think about what's happening in the background. And so that's why I try to go into schools and try and make girls kind of aware of all of the things that they're doing that require some sort of tech. And then normally that does kind of get them a little bit more interested. And I've had girls off the back of the talks either continue to do an A level in computing or pick a degree in computing.
00:31:20
Speaker
or even cybersecurity. And so that's my big aim first, is I just think as a teen, that's when I decided when I was doing my A levels that I was going to do computing. And I think that's a key point of when you're making that decision of what you want to do. If you don't know what's available to you, why would you pick something where you think I'm not going to be successful in that? And that's way before you get to anything that's a leadership kind of level.
00:31:48
Speaker
Why do you think girls aren't interested in tech? Is it just simply that they're not as interested in gaming? I don't want to stereotype because I know a couple of girls that that's all they do with their spare time. They love it. But what is it? I don't know. I think there's this idea that you have to be good at programming, which is not true. I don't do any programming in any of my jobs.
00:32:11
Speaker
Um, that you have to be really good at maths, for example, which I got a D in my GCSE maths. So, you know, that's not true either. Um, that you want me as good as the boys. That's not true. I'm in a very senior role now. And I do have colleagues that are men, but that doesn't stop me from being the vocal person or doing anything or being seen doing my job. Um, I think there are lots of ideas that we have also maybe ideas of what kind of person does a tech role.
00:32:40
Speaker
You know, so this, I always go into schools and I make sure that I've got my makeup done. I'm wearing something nice. You know, I have my nails done. My hair's done because actually, first of all, that's relatable. Yeah. The me going in and I'm like, you know, hoodie and, you know, like, you know, like the idea of a hacker. Um, I don't look like that. I've never looked like that. Um, but I think there is an idea that firstly, you might not, you might not look like that person that you might not have great social skills.
00:33:11
Speaker
Um, and that, you know, you might, you might, there's, I think there is this idea of that, like people that work in tech sit in, um, like basements and don't communicate very well with all of these things. It's like, well, I don't want to be like that. I want to have friends. I want to have a life so you can have all of those things. Um, so I think there is a lot of that that still exists and that, you know, it's a boy's job. Yeah. It's not a boy's job. Um, so I think there is a mixture of lots and lots of things that cause that.
00:33:40
Speaker
And I think until we see, and it's why I think visibility is so important. I think when you see people like yourself or people that you can relate to, it makes it easy for you to believe that it's possible. And so I said this in my talk and I said this in my keynote the other day as well, that I think for school specifically, you have to see it to be it is very, very appropriate from that level because they are going to choose careers that they see. And I always think that like,
00:34:10
Speaker
When teenagers and young adults pick a career, they pick something that they know of, something that their parents done, that their family friends do, that someone's told them about, all the ones that are really well known, like a teacher or a policeman or a doctor and all these things. And all of those jobs are needed, of course. But am I smart enough to be a doctor? Probably not. But actually, I am smart enough to do quite a lot of jobs in tech. And there are lots of jobs in tech from actually being a lawyer
00:34:39
Speaker
because you need people to make sure contracts and all of those things work to account managers who just make sure that everybody's okay and everybody's doing what they're doing in lots of different roles. There are sales roles, there are people who are project managers, there are jobs in tech. Yeah, really good point. I'm just thinking while you're talking about social media, is there anyone that you know of that our kids might be keen to follow on TikTok or somewhere or YouTube?
00:35:09
Speaker
that showcases this as a woman in tech? No, but I don't follow. I don't do TikTok. They had loads of security issues, so I refused to have it. Oh, right. Yeah, so I decided that social media was not good for my mental health. So I try and minimise as much as I can. What about women in tech at senior levels? Is there anyone that is kind of the poster girl for
00:35:35
Speaker
for girls to get interested in tech jobs. Oh, there's loads of women. Um, but I think it's quite difficult unless, you know, so somebody said this to me the other day when I did my keynote is like, um, they were really pleased that I came in and talked to them because I was, I could, they could relate to me. They said, having someone that comes in who's got four degrees, has a, is a doctor, it's really difficult to relate to. And they tell you how amazing, how awesome they are.
00:36:02
Speaker
And so the reason why I started doing this is because I could say, and I'm quite happily saying that I didn't get, you know, I've got a D in my maths, like I said, you know, so, and yeah, I'm trying to juggle six million things and I'm a mum and I just live in a normal house and you know, in St. Albans and all of these things. That's more realistic than somebody who's like, you know, and I, I always think this is quite, it's a difficult one because there are people that I follow and they don't have children. And, you know, they've got like, you know, they've
00:36:32
Speaker
They've been successful, but do I think my life would be like that when I was 23? No, because I wanted to get married and have kids. Right. And so I think all of those things do matter. But there is a lady called Sarah Armstrong Smith, I think her name is. She works on Microsoft and she's very, very senior. She works in cybersecurity. She's released, she's releasing her second book now. And she's somebody that I look up to.
00:37:00
Speaker
because she doesn't have children, but I mean, that's not relevant to me because I don't think that's important now. I think I've had children and even though I still have them and I still have to look after them, it's not going to stop me. And I think that's quite important. And the lady that I mentioned in my talk, Jane Franklin, whose book I read, she has children and she was a single mum while she had her career and started her career in tech.
00:37:30
Speaker
There are lots and lots of women out there that are doing this, but I don't think they're visible to people. And especially students, like I said, I don't know how they'd find them if nobody tells them about them. So how do we change it and what can parents do to help? So I think this is a difficult one. I said in the keynote that if you think about all the children that are around you as a parent and you work in any sort of tech
00:37:58
Speaker
company, tech role, any of these things, or you've got friends that are doing this, you need them to have a conversation with your child to explain what's available in that organization. So one thing that Computer Center does where I work is that we have apprenticeship days where you can go in and see about apprenticeships because a lot of students obviously aren't going on to university now. So they have an apprenticeship program, but we also have a work experience week. And the work experience week, I think is run a couple of times a year.
00:38:27
Speaker
And I took part in the one that happened in July, I think it was, or August, just as, you know, in the summer holidays. And so they had students who were 14 to 17 who came in, had a whole week. And instead of doing the just follow someone around and you don't really learn much, what they did is they had people come to them. So they were in a big, you know, a big conference room. And they had people that came in from different vendors. So we had like,
00:38:55
Speaker
Dell and Cisco and various other vendors that came in and did talks about their organizations. They had their networking, so I was part of the networking. So they had like a speed networking session. So they could all ask questions about my career, how I started, what I do. They had some of the senior leadership came in and talked about their jobs and what they did and how they got into those roles. So they had a real mix of people that came in, people that came in and talked about diversity and inclusion.
00:39:25
Speaker
And I thought it was a great idea because when I did work experience, you know, I just followed somebody around for a week and I didn't learn anything. I used the phone a lot and called my friends. It was fantastic, but I didn't learn anything about work. And actually what made me really kind of get my head down is when I did my work placement year at
Perks and Challenges of Tech Careers
00:39:47
Speaker
university. So I did a sandwich course. And in that year that I did that, I got to go and stay at fancy hotels.
00:39:54
Speaker
and be part of events. And I thought, John, I want to do this. You know, I want work to pay for me to go and stay at like these fancy Hilton hotels and, you know, just one about conference and pick up all the goodies. And, um, you know, somebody pays all these dinner events that I go to and my expenses to travel anywhere. And actually that's what made me really want to push myself. And so I think like the work experience day that we have.
00:40:23
Speaker
know they get kind of a little bit of a taste of that because you go into the office you know and they have like lunch and stuff like that and they meet all these people and it's a good way to kind of say well actually I wouldn't mind doing a job like this but somebody's paying for me to do things yeah and I mean I've I've got to travel quite a lot in my roles previously well that's not a selling point right yeah so I mean I went to Sydney for four weeks all paid for I used to go over to Boston all the time and
00:40:53
Speaker
I've been over to like California. So, you know, I used to do trips to Europe all the time, Scotland, maybe not as glamorous as some of the others, but yeah. And yeah, I used to get to do all these trips, all paid for. And, you know,
00:41:07
Speaker
I mean, it was fantastic when I didn't have children. It was brilliant. Yeah, great experience for a young woman just starting out in the tech industry. Yeah. Yeah. So lots of reasons why you should. Is anyone else doing anything? The work experience sounds great, actually. And I'm speaking as someone with
00:41:26
Speaker
a son in year 12 who's currently tasked with finding his week's worth of work experience after Christmas. And it's really hard to find proper work experience. So that sounds amazing. Is there anyone else in the tech industry doing similar? I don't know, but I imagine that there is quite a few. So I know there are still some of the old type work experiences like Fujitsu and some of the companies that they do like the typical work experience.
00:41:55
Speaker
but I don't know too much about them. But I know that there's, I know there's a, like a Facebook group, obviously, that's been created in St Albans that is around these sort of things. So I think the difficulty is since COVID, a lot of people work from home, don't they? So they're not in the office. So I can imagine it's really difficult to try and get work experience, you know, for a full week. Nobody wants to go in. I think somebody asked me, like, oh, could my son do work experience with you? And I was like, well, only work three days a week.
00:42:22
Speaker
And I work from home as much as I can. Um, and quite honestly, I'm also really busy and I haven't, you know, finding time to then give them something to do is quite difficult. So I think the work experience week that we, we've now launched, and I think they've done a couple of them now, um, is brilliant because it just, they, we have so many volunteers that do schools at a school outreach anyway, that actually lots of people just volunteer to go in and do all these things. And it also brings in the senior management.
00:42:52
Speaker
Which you'd never get in a work experience week normally to go and speak that, you know, to get the people that are leading the country to come in and do 10 minutes. That would never happen. Yeah, that is amazing. So getting to see those managers in senior leadership also helps. So going back to the original conversation about how do we get young women to see that there are opportunities in leadership. Yeah. You have to meet them. You have to see these people. They have to be people that you can actually talk to.
00:43:21
Speaker
you know, because in a lot of organisations, you don't meet any of the leadership people, because they're kind of high up, you know, you're just kind of doing your job. But I think when you have events like that, when if you're a 15 year old, and you've met the people that are running the UK country, yes, you know, that gives you that, that gives you ambition and makes you believe that it's possible. And then actually, these people are just normal people. Yes, of course, of course they are. And that's really hard for a teenager to understand when
00:43:51
Speaker
Well, the school system teaches kids that actually you have to behave, respect elders. I've got a real issue with that. And do as you're told and that the people who are older than you and more senior than you and in positions of power are more important than you. And you can't be like them. Yeah. And I think it's a difficult thing to break because I was having a conversation with somebody else about this is that because you're taught to respect your elders,
00:44:21
Speaker
or that you shouldn't say anything. When you don't agree with them in a work environment, you feel like you can't say anything. It's been really disrespectful. But equally, if you've never met senior management and then they're there, you feel like you're not able to go and speak to them because do you have the right to go and speak to them? Take up some of that airspace. Yes. It is very difficult. I think that's why the work experience that we've got is fantastic because
00:44:49
Speaker
you're not going to them, they're coming to you. Yeah, so they're expecting to hear from you. Yeah, and I think that's, for me, that's a big change from when I was a teenager or when I was doing work experience or even when I was in kind of the beginning of my career. I never saw those people at all, never met them. They were just people that do things, you know, they obviously get paid money, they make some decisions.
00:45:13
Speaker
And I think that's changing, but these events are a fantastic way of doing that. And I think especially for the teenagers who are looking for work experience, I highly recommend having a look at the pages and signing up. Okay. I will ask you for a link for that before we finish, if that's okay, Bea, so that I can include it in the show notes. Yeah. I'll try and find you the link. We've got a little while. Okay. So yeah.
00:45:38
Speaker
What, what do you well apart from visibility of more women at senior level? I mean, when it happens, I can see the point it's gonna snowball when you when, when girls and younger management level women see more women in senior places, then that will, it will take care of itself.
Systemic Issues in Tech for Women
00:45:57
Speaker
But what is stopping them from going there? Is it just that intimidation that I'm speaking from personal experience, having worked in a big corporation and
00:46:07
Speaker
the CEO scared the heck out of me. I did not ever want to be around him. It was far too scary. And actually now, with the benefit of some age, I'm able to think, you know what, he wasn't that perfect, was he? And there were some things I'd quite like to say to him now, with the benefit of hindsight. What do you say to those women? Why do you think people are peeling away, as I said, in the early stages? I think there's a mixture of things of like,
00:46:38
Speaker
You can't, like I said, you can't see a lot of men, you can't see a lot of women. So there's a lot of men. One of the things I think is also an issue is that you don't know how you can progress your career and if it's possible to do that. So even if you start thinking about having that career, you think, well, where's it going to go? Am I going to get to a leadership role? Am I going to be senior? What happens when I have a family? You know, there are all of these things. I thought about all of those things myself when I started. What's the systemic issue? Yeah. So when I started, I was like,
00:47:07
Speaker
Well, when I have a family, my career is not going to progress. Yeah. But it could, if I did something else, also things like flexible working, you know, if it's not visible that there are people doing flexible working or part-time roles, you're going to think, well, if I have a family, I'm not going to be able to go back to that job. So maybe I'll do a different job where I can see that. So I think a lot of this, and you know, unfortunately it does come down to a lot of women who are working in tech, um, need to be more visible to the next generation. Yeah.
00:47:36
Speaker
And so I, you know, when I sit in a room full of women and we have this conversation, I say, well, if you went to one school once a year, any school, you know, think of the impact if 20 people go to 20 schools, you know, and it's not a lot of your time because you're only going in for 30 minutes, but that 30 minutes could change three girls' lives. Really good point. And I think, yeah, and I think that's the thing. We all think it's one person's job.
00:48:03
Speaker
but as a big group of people, and you know, there are more than 20 women in tech. If we all did it, it would change everything. And I won't lie. I mean, it's very disheartening when I've gone into school, schools and I've done like a networking event and they also, well, I don't want a career in tech. And, you know, and I've done that and I've walked away and gone, none of them want to work in tech. But it doesn't matter that they didn't want to work in tech at that point.
00:48:26
Speaker
What matters is that they know that a job in tech is available to them. Yeah. And you've planted a seed. And even if only one of those young women takes you up on it and grows a career from it, then that's another person. Yeah. And I think it's the idea that it's somebody who is really, really smart, for example, that can only work in tech. That's not true. And like I said, there are so many different jobs. So I went to a school networking event in St Albans and
00:48:53
Speaker
my colleagues, it was an all-girls school. And I think there was four of my colleagues who came with me, all women. We all work at the same tech company, but we all did completely different jobs. So one works in HR, one works in diversity and inclusion, one worked in partner management. There was me who works in an actual technical role. And one of them was an engineer, so she was even more technical. And we all went in and did the talk and we said that, you know, actually none of the main interests of it, but
00:49:22
Speaker
they know that these five jobs, very different jobs, all exist in the tech industry. And so you've got different skills needed for each of those roles. Because the DEI person doesn't need to know anything about tech. She just has to be passionate enough to want to make changes and get
00:49:42
Speaker
more people and make everything more inclusive. I believe in the product. Yeah. And the partner manager, she's just holding relationships. She's making sure that the relationships exist. Yes. And then you do have two technical people and the HR person, she's just doing a HR job in a technical company, but she could do that anywhere.
00:50:01
Speaker
Yeah. But, you know, but there are lots of tech companies and tech is only going to get bigger. Of course. And I like your point that there's everything that we do has some element of tech behind it and that's only going to become even more the case. Yeah. So it's just not worth ruling out. No. And I think, you know, you could obviously like AI is a big thing now. And it's only, you know, part of the reason why I got into security specifically was because at the time it was quite slow, but I knew it was going to move fast.
00:50:30
Speaker
And it is now moving so fast, it's hard to keep up. But so is the rest of tech. When I was at school, we had computers at school, but nobody had a laptop. You didn't have a phone or anything. And it was like, I'm cool because I've got an email address and a Hotmail address at the time.
00:50:52
Speaker
you know, we used MSN chat and all of these things. All of these things have happened in 20 years. I know, right? That's so scary. When I left school, there weren't computers or if there were, they were these giant things in massive great corporation rooms that one person went in and checked was plugged in every now and then.
The Future of Tech Careers
00:51:10
Speaker
Yeah. And that's, and in the last 10 years, things have moved even faster than they did the previous 10 years to that. So if you think how quickly it's moving, I'd be very surprised if, you know, in 10 years time,
00:51:22
Speaker
all jobs that have some element of tech in them. Yeah. Yeah. And you can be at the front of that if you get started now. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Bea, thank you so much for sharing all of that. It's really interesting. And as I said, I'll just reiterate it. I think that is a really, really good angle that all jobs have some kind of tech element. And so you can be interested in hair and fashion and makeup and socializing.
00:51:51
Speaker
and not a stereotype of the IT crowd on TV. Exactly what I think of. It's just not worth discounting a career that involves some kind of tech. You don't even have to do an engineering degree to end up in tech. You can do something in HR, as you say, or something in marketing.
00:52:13
Speaker
And it pays well if that helps any of the teenagers. Actually, I can't believe neither of us has picked up on that yet until we are now 52 minutes into this meeting. A friend of mine, her nephew, I think he came out of university and did a, he started a job in something but wasn't really happy and didn't really rate the degree that he'd done. So he did a coding course, his first job
00:52:40
Speaker
I think he's maybe 23. His first job was paying £50,000 a year. Just get into tech now, girls. Yeah. And I mean, it does pay well. And like I said, the companies, they've got money because everybody needs it. Yeah. And if nothing else, you might get some trips out of it as well. Yeah. And you get to stay at nice hotels. All of the things that are interesting to a teenager, those are the things that I liked. Somebody's going to pay for me to travel. Yeah. Somebody's going to pay for me to stay in a nice hotel.
00:53:10
Speaker
And they can expense my dinner and my breakfast and my lunch. And, you know, I, it's one of the things that I do and I, if I interview for jobs now, I always ask, can I expense my travel? And I'm talking about my train from where I live to London, which isn't even that expensive, but I never leave, if I leave my house, I expense it. Yeah. Yeah. That's food, drink, train, taxi. Everything is expensed.
00:53:35
Speaker
So as a teenager, that was all I wanted to know. Quality lifestyle without having to cost your money. Yeah. Well, if that isn't a winning argument, I don't know what it is. P, thank you so much for joining us today. No worries. I'm glad it was a useful conversation for you. Yeah, it was. It was great.
00:53:57
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it. Thank you to everyone who's already rated and reviewed the podcast. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Amazon, it would mean the world to me if you could leave a review. It really helps get the word out, as well as making me very happy to read what you have to say.
00:54:16
Speaker
If this episode strikes a chord for you, please share it with anyone else you know who might be in the same boat and hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. If you have a story or suggestion for something you'd like to see covered on the podcast, you can email me at teenagekickspodcast at gmail.com or message me on Instagram. I'm, I am Helen Wills. I love hearing from all my listeners. It really makes a difference to me on this journey.
00:54:46
Speaker
See you next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of parenting teens. Bye for now!