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DSC: "Jinaal" (s5e3) with Shereese (@SciFiSavage)
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FX AND TRILL. The clue trail leads Discovery to Trill, which gives Adira a chance to sort out their relationship with Gray while Burnham, Book, and Culber go on an adventure with a previous Trill host who was involved in the breakup of the Progenitors tech. Will any of this make sense as characters repeat plot details or is it a simple tour de force of VFX as Burnham and Book dodge exploding barbs launched from cloaked monsters that are indigenous to Trill! Meanwhile, Rayner gets to know the crew by forcing them to give brief, 20-word statements as a way of getting to know them. Will his rough edges rub the delicate crew the wrong way or will Tilly be able to sand those edges before Burnham gets back to the ship?
Joining Bryan for this voyage through Disco's 5th season is Shereese the Sci-Fi Savage (@SciFiSavage on all social platforms). She has a weekly stream on YouTube called "The Savage Stream," every Wednesday night, 6pm PT/ 9 pm ET -- check it out!
The grades begin at (33:41).
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Transcript
Introduction to Trek Mary Kill Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
This week on Trek Mary Kill. Riddles, interviews, poems. Let's fly. Trek Mary Kill.
00:00:15
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian.
Discussion on Star Trek Discovery S5E3: Janal
00:00:16
Speaker
Hi, I'm Charisse. Welcome to Trek Mary Kill, a Star Trek podcast that can be emotionally overwhelming because, well, that's what it does best. Charisse is back with us, the sci-fi savage, and we're continuing with our discussion of season five of Star Trek Discovery this week with of episode three, Janal.
00:00:37
Speaker
Janal? Janal. I don't know. It's, it's dealer's choice. Yeah, we don't know. It premiered on Paramount Plus in the US on April 11th, 2024, written together by Kyle Jarrow and Lauren Wilkinson and directed by Andy Armageddon.
00:00:52
Speaker
A memory alpha summary. On Trill, Burnham, Booker, and Culber must pass a dangerous test to prove themselves worthy of the next clue. Adira reconnects with Grey, and Saru's first day as an ambassador is complicated by his engagement to Trina.
00:01:08
Speaker
What memory alpha doesn't mention is that in order to pass the dangerous trill test, Kolber must allow himself to be inhabited by the spirit of a previous chill trill host for the one named Bix, that's the Symbian's name. ah you know The little slug's name is Bix, the previous host that has all this information about the clue is named Janal. In this case,
00:01:30
Speaker
Uh, Janelle was one of the scientists who discovered the progenitor's technology on basically like a secret mission by the Federation president given to a group of scientists after Picard's discovery. Uh, and after this group of scientists saw its awesome power, which really just manifested as it killing one of the dudes in the group. That's literally the extent
Critique on Clues vs. Puzzle Pieces
00:01:51
Speaker
of it. They decided this is too dangerous. You know, Kenny was Kenny was a good guy. Yeah.
00:01:57
Speaker
Presumably they also ah studied it in some way to discover that it can do other things. They just didn't mention that or write it down in their notes because, well, they wrote it down, but then they destroyed their notes. So presumably they discovered other things before Kenny bought the farm. yeah We'll just never know.
00:02:13
Speaker
Stamets seems to have pieced that part together from the Romulan tricorder. But ah anyway, so they decided, well, let's break this up and scatter it across the galaxy, not destroy it for reasons. And and we'll we'll we as scientists will decide that this clue trail will divine who is actually worthy of having the technology Yeah, because I mean, i'm I'm a trained scientist myself, and I cannot tell you, Brian, the number of times I've created an escape room to make sure that the other scientists in my lab are worthy of the knowledge that they seek. It was countless times, countless times.
00:02:49
Speaker
You're trying to get your PhD or something and it's like, you can you can pass. If you answer this one riddle, what? This riddle leads to this area, which leads to this person who has this information, which which leads to this clue, which leads to this other place. I'm going to forget to say it, but I need to say it now. I'm not done with what memory alpha doesn't tell you because there's some so other storylines here. But one of the pieces, one of the clues is hidden in the most sci-fi ass environment we've ever seen. Like one of the most sci-fi predators that we've ever seen in film and TV, Itronach on Trill, a giant insectoid that can cloak.
00:03:31
Speaker
Or, you know, it's ah it's a camouflage basically makes it blend in with the environment and it shoots fiery barbs at people. Anyway, there's that. But I just want to put this out. It's not clues they're looking for. It's a puzzle. Like they get a piece of a puzzle.
00:03:49
Speaker
So and they know what the image they don't know what it exactly looks like, but it is literally a puzzle. They know what it's all building towards this progenitor's technology. So it's weird that they keep calling it a clue and a clue trail and said it's not like synonyms of puzzle. I guess clue and puzzle piece maybe are synonymous. But a clue is like, what are we what's the mystery here? Oh, I see what you're saying,
Long-distance Relationship Struggles in Star Trek
00:04:14
Speaker
because there's no mystery. They know what it is. They know exactly what it is.
00:04:18
Speaker
it's not really a treasure hunt where it's like we don't know how much treasure or we don't know it's like yeah there's yeah we know this one chest of gold it's 10 like we know exactly what it is we're just trying to find it yes and i don' think is the phrase clues when it's a treasure hunt would they They do use clues when it's a treasure hunt. That's true. And I will I will concede that. But what they're putting together does seem like pieces of the technology. Right. That's what they say that they've hidden pieces of the technology around. So I guess it's clues to each treasure hunt.
00:04:49
Speaker
Because he slides a piece in and it forms another piece. No, I didn't get that. I thought the pieces... Okay, so I missed that. But I thought the pieces go together to give the final clue, like the X that marks the spot. I will accept that. That's what I had in my mind. I will accept that. It just, at the end, the visual is of a puzzle being put together. Yeah, so I guess mine is literally the chase. Yeah, so it was a puzzle. Yeah, pieces. And then at the end, it was like a star map. I guess I have trouble with the clue trail verbiage because in TV terms, that is like the clue trail towards like a procedural. How do they solve this mystery? Yes.
00:05:24
Speaker
So like who done it? And it's like, well, we know who done it and we know what it is. So it's very strange that they're invoking this very specific more terminology, collecting evidence. yeah Yeah, exactly. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. There's some other things in the what memory alpha doesn't tell us just from that summary that it's important to mention for the rest of our review here. ah Meanwhile, Commander Rainer is tasked with getting to know the crew and basically does it his own way. 20 word interviews.
00:05:50
Speaker
And then Grey finally ends his abusive relationship with Adira because now that he's free of their mind, his life on Trill is fucking awesome. ah And then I don't know what to say about the Torina part of the story other than that it is drama for drama's sake. Basically, there's the idea that the Vulcan purists are going to be upset that a Vulcan is going to You know, marry a non-Vulcan or a non... um Well, that's the president of yeah Vulcan or yeah the president of Velar or whatever the name of their planet is. Navarre is going to marry a non-Vulcan. I think they'd be fine if it was like some little nobody. They might be upset, but they might not even know.
00:06:28
Speaker
I mean, that storyline as a concept, probably, I think there's a way to do it in a way that's like, we're really invested. But here in this episode, it really is just like a trio of scenes that is all very obvious. Like Saru and Trina are happy. And then Trina's aide is like, hey, that hey, dog, there's a problem. You probably shouldn't marry her. And then Saru, listening to this person, he does not know. He just does. Good idea. I'm going to go break it off.
00:06:54
Speaker
ah You know, bring it up to what probably one of the most intelligent, wonderful women I've ever met in my entire life and say, you know, maybe it's not a good idea. And then she goes, what are you talking about? He's like, I don't know. She's like, did my aunt talk to you? Maybe. She's like, well, I know what's best. And he's like, maybe you're right. That's the lesson I needed to learn, which he already learned it. We already do.
00:07:16
Speaker
so So does that never get paid off like we never find out more about the purists and like they're mad schemes I think this was another we are Making sure to never tie off a loose end because we want to bring it back So I think it's a thing that could always continue but this season it does not really Am I speaking out of turn here? I don't recall it coming to a head. Okay, I guess we'll find out. Yeah All right. so So that's basically, I just wanted to clear that all up because sometimes we'll talk about these episodes and people don't listen to or watch the episode and they just listen to us, which is cool, but you know, give them some, then you you're missing some context. yeah So some concepts and themes. I like to throw this out here. Some things we could talk about that the episode sort of suggests the main, the first one being, of course, long distance relationships.
00:08:02
Speaker
And we've got their crazy amount of success. Yes, that's right. Yes. In in fiction and reality. ah Now, in this particular case, we've got Gray and Adira having a long distance relationship and
Character Growth and Real-life Complexities
00:08:18
Speaker
how difficult that's all been. I just want to say in this particular case of Star Trek Discovery and this era of Star Trek that they're in the 78th century or whatever they're in,
00:08:29
Speaker
that they hollow in and have a relationship. I'm sorry. There's been no ah definition or boundaries set for this hollow technology. They're not kissing. They're not making love. They're not. It seems like you could. I don't know what the issue is. So it's very strange of like hollowing in is probably not the hollow conversation is probably not the same thing. But there is a high degree of interactivity. It seems to be happening in real time.
00:08:55
Speaker
I mean, I guess if you're just saying the physical intimacy part is the issue, do you think that's what it is? That's what the conflict is? Well, I, you know, I, I would say that except they were very clear, like Adair was very clear that um our conversations just aren't the same. So was it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, we're just not connecting physically. It was like, our relationship just doesn't work over Hollow.
00:09:16
Speaker
So, that to me speaks more that their relationship doesn't just doesn't work. yeah Like it just doesn't, right? Because I, to your point, you know, and I have a friend who um she's, she's married her husband is in the military and so he's often away on, you know, on tours for a long time. And I told her about the VR headset that I bought and how me and my mom would like watch movies on it. And she was like, what? Like me and my mom in different cities would watch movies together on the VR headset.
00:09:40
Speaker
And so she was like, Oh my gosh, I can do this with my husband and my whole family. And so she got her whole entire family VR headsets. And so when her husband's out in Korea or whatever, like they would all sit down as a family and watch movies together. And then her and her husband had weekly date nights in the headset, where they could just like get in and they could talk to each other and hang out. And I mean, yeah, they could talk on the phone.
00:10:01
Speaker
as well, right? But like, there's something about being just um even in a virtual environment with your virtual avatars, where they were still able to connect. yeah So I feel like with this hollow, it's even better, because it's literally like their body, their height, their measurements. I mean, it's them pretty much it's them, they can talk to you, you can talk to them. So Yeah, I feel like in this case, long distance maybe maybe could work because you could see them as much as you want and they can be walking around like you can literally go out to eat together. I mean, you can't both have the same meal necessarily, but like you can sit in the space and you know, I don't know. yeah Yeah, I feel like it would be the same as dating in person.
00:10:36
Speaker
Um, but I think you're right. It, it does sound like, uh, gray hanging out under underground trail in the caves a lot of the time, maybe change and, and Adira flying around, zipping across the galaxy that they're definitely living different lives outside of their relationship. And that's true. Which they've never done before in the history of their relationship. Exactly right. Yeah.
00:10:59
Speaker
It's weird that and and also it's very clear Adira makes very clear to ah Reno that I umm or was in the previous episode with Tilly. It was like, I'm kind of cool with this, that this person's not in my brain. and And in this episode, I think Grey is saying like, it's pretty cool. I'm not just sitting in your brain pan.
00:11:19
Speaker
but Yeah, walking around with you, wishing I could do something on my own. So as Reno rightly points out in this one is like this relationship is over. But like the the history of long distance relationships, why do we do it? I mean, in the case that you mentioned, your friend, there's there's ones where work. Yeah.
00:11:38
Speaker
or calling separates people. ah There's just that decision. And then other ones, you know, sometimes those are things that's like, this was a part of my life and now my life has meaningfully changed, but this is a part I want to hold on to. And sometimes you either recognize that, but you're like, but maybe it could still work. And other times you don't recognize that that's what's going on. And so take some time to realize it. But I think they're tricky. I think the entire point of human connection is presence, is being present. It's not just, yeah,
00:12:07
Speaker
Shooting texts to each other. Yeah, just you know saying what's in your brain that day and making sure someone acknowledged it back It's not just like a verbal diary entry. Yes. Yeah, I think and I also think like this is like comparing contrast with Burnham and Booker is like At the end of last season. They're just like I'm so in love with you. I'm so in love with you. I can't live without you Oh, no, he's died. The love of my life has died. The love of my life is alive. Okay, we should break up What? Wait, what? And it was like, oh, yeah, because we just can't do long distance. Like, it's just not a thing. And you're like, but I thought your love could stand the test of time and bridge the gap of death. And now it's like, yeah, but like, if we can't see each other every day on the ship, I don't think this relationship is going to work. So that to me was really dumb. I was like, you
Trill Mysticism and Rituals
00:12:52
Speaker
guys did not you put in zero effort into this supposed it love of your life. On the other hand, Adira and Gray, I'm like, yeah, this is a good call. Because they've never experienced being separate entities with their own
00:13:03
Speaker
journeys and maybe they can come back together later in life if it's a good fit but it's like that was a time of their life that was great and that chapter has passed like now they're in a new chapter and they're both happy you know they're not like oh i miss you so much you know it's not like one of them is pining and the other one's like i'm over it they're both over it they're just like how do we say it and it's like Well, even better because you both are both on the same page of like, let's go live our lives. This makes all the sense in the world to me. And I was glad that they did it pretty painlessly. You know, it was just like, hey, we should talk. Let's break up. OK.
00:13:34
Speaker
Was that the most interesting version of how to do it? Probably not, but I think there's some desire to reflect present day real life as much as possible, which makes every character talk and act sort of wishy-washy because they don't want to feel their feelings. And, you know, there is a, you know, I respect...
00:13:54
Speaker
you go you're working in a writer's room and you pitch an idea and the showrunners like we're not doing that you don't push the issue you go with where the if it's like i don't know where we're going yet but we're not going in that direction so if someone had pitched like what if adira's like you know what i thought long and hard about this and when i see gray we're gonna break up and they didn't want to do that they're like well these long distance relationships are complicated this is a queer relationship we don't want to like have it be so definitive so then adira a character i feel like has given been given a short shrift is just i I never know what that character would want. Yeah. They seem very uncertain about literally everything they do. Literally say everything. And I don't know. It's like, ah I don't know why they make this character stutter all the time. Yes. Right. She's always like, i I want to have a cup of tea. Should I have coffee? I just I really don't know. And you're like, girl.
00:14:40
Speaker
or a person, you know. Trying to show, reflect some part of the audience is what it feels like. And I don't know. I don't know that that's doing a service to the story you're trying to tell. And I don't know how much of real life do I want to see reflected in my shows, especially shows that take place in the 125th century. Yeah, I don't know what. Still, at the same time, it is fun to think about long distance relationships in Star Trek, which is why I think the Roddenberry sexuality of like Who cares? Just, you know, love who you love and have sex with who you want. And it's like, it's these roles are not so rigidly defined and and all that stuff. There is something to that. And the fact that there's no even mention of that where it's like, who cares? But I like that they cared and it would make sense that these two characters in particular, for exactly the reasons you said, like,
00:15:24
Speaker
until it makes all the sense, the right decision, but also like they've been through so much, like they can't just be so casual about it. yeah It has to be sort of a- It would have been nice, like as you're talking, if Adira was put in some crazy, dramatic, dangerous scene. Yes. And then Grey had to come save the day. And then while Grey is thinking about say saving the day or talking to his mentor or whatever is like, ah You know what? I don't feel, you know, I want to rescue a deer, but I just don't feel the level of like, you know, something passion that I thought I would in this situation or some kind of like, I feel guilty that I don't feel more. And then there could be some internal struggle, but I don't know. They just were like, we're both over it. We're over it. I'm over over it. Let's be done. yeah So it's like there's a version where it's like, why are we doing this other than well, we just have to write legally sign the paperwork for the show that like it's over folks. um But anyway,
00:16:20
Speaker
Uh, some other concepts and themes like the trill. Hey, we get the trill back. Uh, we, last week we talked about two episodes, which had references across them to the chase.
00:16:30
Speaker
Arsenal of Freedom, Booby Trap. This week, we get a little facet section from Deep Space Nine. We get the Zintara ritual performed so that they can ask Jen all the questions. You remember that episode?
New Characters and Dynamics
00:16:41
Speaker
That's the one where Odo winds up being the Curzon Dax ah version, and we see him get, you know, morph and get the spots, and he's like, I don't walk.
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah, he's like, I don't want to go back. This is fun. I like being out here. So i it's just like a fun goofy episode that you do. And ah and so it's nice to see that. I like that little tie in there. It makes sense. And this is ah obviously a return to Trill from they've done this. And I think it was in season three of Discovery. So, you know, like they're even revisiting their own cannon. And that's cool, too. um it Connecting with the crew.
00:17:18
Speaker
So regardless of our personal connections to Discovery, it's a lot of people's first Star Trek, their favorite Star Trek. We we acknowledge it's not ours in either case. um But it's worth remembering that Raynor is essentially a late in the run main cast edition. Think of him as Rolaren, Worf when he came aboard DS9, Seven of Nine even. I know there's a lot of like comparisons to Jellico because he's gruff, but what he's occupying is like new character for this season.
00:17:48
Speaker
And so usually in shows, when you add a new character into the mix, it's to mix it up because you're you're ah things have gotten stale. you're kind of All the relationships have been played to their logical conclusions of what's interesting. So you need a little wild card in there to kind of change the way everyone talks to each other. Discovery is in a constant state of change, though.
00:18:11
Speaker
The show is constantly shifting, you know, like the and it's whatever it is from season to season. I think the serialization also kind of like forces a certain way that everyone talks and relates to each other. But I just wanted to point it out like the the idea of like we need to bring in this new character to shake things up, but then we need to by episode three, make sure that we're pushing him to become a part of the crew. It was an interesting decision, but I still like that they kept to this outsider perspective in this one.
00:18:40
Speaker
And I like when shows do that late in the runs, some of the times, other times and it can work. It doesn't necessarily always work. Star Trek, I think for the most part pulled it off. I'm trying to think of a version of a show that had a new character late. Like even here, I think Reiner really works.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah. and ah And I'm thinking like, you know, when you add a new cast member to an established cast, it goes one of two ways. Either they write the character in such a way where everyone loves this character. They've always loved this character. They've known this character for years. We just didn't know the character. You know what I mean? And when they come in, the whole cast is like so happy that we as the viewers are like, okay, cool. Like we accept them too. Or they go the opposite route, which is the route they went for Rainer.
00:19:22
Speaker
where there's just like, they have to kind of earn their place and they're they a lot of the characters don't like them. So I'm thinking of Reginald Barclay in TNG and also his predecessor, I wanna say Selena Gomez, but it was something else, something like that, who like was a really anxious engineer that they brought in for one episode and they were like, no, we're not doing that. And then they brought in Reginald Barclay like a few seasons later to do the exact same role. um And like all the characters couldn't stand him. Like they were all irritated by him. as Sonia, there it is. and I was like, it's not Sonia Gomez. I remember when I heard it, I was like, it's something like Sonia Gomez. Sonia Gomez, who they do bring back in Laura Dex, which is hilarious. And she's a captain, so good for her. But um yeah, so when they breed in this character, everybody doesn't like him. And so I, as the viewer, also didn't like him. like I just mirrored whatever everybody else was doing. And then I think that was a disservice to that character because it took so long for people to warm up to him on the show. It took so long for me to warm up to him. But what I like about what they did in this episode
00:20:17
Speaker
is this is very similar to Jellicoe, you're right, in the sense that he's not trying to be liked. I don't need anybody to like me. I'm just here to do my job. Yeah, and I can
Portrayal of Peace and Conflict in the Galaxy
00:20:25
Speaker
respect that. So I actually like that because you see that the characters, none of the characters like him, but I don't feel like I'm pressured to not like him. I feel like we don't like him because he's gruff and he's focused, but not because he's like annoying or something like that. Right. Yeah. I think I have more thoughts on this that hopefully we'll get to later on, but I'm I'm in agreement with you. I also think that the Jellico comp really doesn't hold up very much, except for, like you said, the exterior gruffness. But to your point about liking Barkley or not liking Barkley, Burnham likes Rainier. Burnham's the only one. But Burnham's the show. You know what I mean? like It's like Batman liking Wonder Woman. Then people are going to like Wonder Woman. you know I'm talking about boys, I guess. like a Wonder Woman, like oh, well Batman likes her. Fine.
00:21:16
Speaker
ah So that's kind of how I work for for people. Sometimes it's unfair. But ah but so it's different in a lot of ways, you know, to what you said to what you're saying. And it's like, anyway, it's an interesting Dilemma that they introduced here. I hope we'll talk about more, but if not, oh well. And then the last one I want to mention is during the the sequence to find the piece or deal with, sorry, they're talking to Janal, Culber as Janal, and kind of he's like, well, we were hoping that this technology would be ready when the galaxy's at peace, which I don't know. That doesn't really sound like really a lot of wisdom from this group of scientists.
00:21:54
Speaker
Maybe one day when we've achieved intergalactic peace, this technology won't be there, which is not the progenitor's aim. the progenitorors Anyway, my boy we that'll be something we'll talk about later issues or episodes, like what's going on with the progenitor's technology here. Anyway, Burnham has the line, advancement isn't linear, meaning like, yes, we are probably getting better, but we'll have at epochs where we step back, you know what I mean? To go forward. And I had only really heard that as a, like, as, cause I, I cover baseball and my side hustles here of like advanced development isn't linear. So like.
00:22:31
Speaker
Young players don't necessarily start from being one, one degree and then they work their way all, all the way up to an all star, you know like sometimes they'll have setbacks, they'll have bad seasons or whatever. They may not become the player they want to be or at least for a few years then they will. It's nothing that makes sense but it's also It's kind of like a weird ah mathematician dodge this idea that advancement isn't linear. That's kind of against the spirit of Star Trek. but Like we're always striving to be better, right? like we're all like So Burnham is sort of ah playing at both sides in this whole conversation, which is like, well, you know, we are better and people are good. I believe that, but advancement isn't linear. We have to acknowledge there are bad things because I think it's just reflecting that Star Trek is taking place in the time where
00:23:19
Speaker
You can't say things are great now. And so they don't want the show saying something that doesn't reflect reality because then they worry that it's going to put it out of time or make it pass a or just too silly. And I was like, well, the other version is you could just make it more hopeful and Burnham could the the other version.
00:23:38
Speaker
is that vert Burnham is, this is not me criticizing, it's just me pointing out we're not doing most of its time, but this idea that sitting here in this scene and even in this episode is, well, maybe we're not totally worthy now, but we're working towards being worthy, and I don't think it's a matter of worth. I think it's it's actually just a matter of we're always trying to grow and be better, and we haven't lost that spirit.
00:23:59
Speaker
It's a matter of intention, right? Yes. And I think that's what's right. That's what should be the the worthiness is like we're always trying to do the best thing, the right thing, move forward instead of this kind of like political, you know, data scientist version of like, well, technically things don't progress in a linear curve, you know, in a curve. It's ah there are setbacks and, you know, it it just seems like a um ah half measure or a half statement, a half thought that that kind of does the idea of Star Trek a bit of disservice. But I don't know, Advanced Visual Linear though. Yeah, that's that's an interesting thought. I had the opposite thought when I watched that scene. And my thought was like when when Colbert slash Janelle was like, is it true? Is the galaxy at peace now? Are all humans good from their cores? And Booker's like, yes, absolutely. Without even thinking. And Brennan's like a little bit. You know, I thought I thought immediately, absolutely not.
00:24:55
Speaker
We're talking about people. People are never going to be perfectly good to their cores. And then I also thought, um, Maul and Locke are on their way here right now to lay waste to this entire planet just to get this clue. So that's one counter example to humanity, mankind, all the people in the galaxy being at perfect peace. Like, yeah so ah that's what I thought they were going to say. I thought they were going to be like, no, we're here to stop bad guys because there are still bad guys. It doesn't matter what century we're in. We're always going to have struggles. And I guess it could have been a hopeful spin of like, but we're always trying to be better, blah, blah, blah. But like, we're always going to have struggles. And I guess it's just be projecting because um I just think it's silly to think of a time in the future there there will be a time in the future with enough technology and time where humanity will no longer act like humans. um I think people are still going to. There's always going to be
00:25:40
Speaker
Divisions and that that comes from Just how we are in the world. So I was actually surprised in that scene that no one said that because I'm like Mullen lock could be here any minute and then what are you gonna say? No, no, we we have peace in the galaxy like us to have peace But not ever you know, I mean, I was like, how do you explain that? And I just so why haven't you mentioned that? Why haven't you mentioned to anyone
Production Choices and Actor Performances
00:26:01
Speaker
on trio trill that mole and lock are coming any second like and probably they're gonna come violently and Right. They don't do it till the end. we're like yeah They do it at the end. That should have been the first thing out of their mouths was like, we're here because we're trying to get here before the bad guys. So that that's how I felt in this scene. I was like, why aren't they mentioning like, you know, they're strife. No, there's, they're still strife. Like yeah we're in the middle of strife. That's the only reason we're here is because of strife. That's right.
00:26:26
Speaker
But well, that's why the scene did not feel right. And also again, scientists, you know, having the spirit, maybe the whole thing is actually when they discovered this progenitor's technology, the scientists all had this weird spiritual awakening. That actually makes sense. I can go with that. And suddenly this idea of like, who is worthy? We shouldn't have all this power. Should anybody? What does it all mean? This technology killed Kenny. Yeah, exactly. We've got to keep it safe from others.
00:26:56
Speaker
Uh, all right. Uh, some production perspective, just a couple of notes for me. Uh, just, this comes from trek movie.com's review. There's a USS locker, which could be seen at Starfleet headquarters named in honor of camera operator JP locker, who passed away in 2022. I like when shows honor their crew. Sometimes we saw in the last episode, they honored Kenneth Johnson who had passed away, uh, you know, as a, as a card.
00:27:24
Speaker
I like when they drop in these little easter eggs, little nods to people who mean something to them, that's nice. Yeah. And that's definitely like a Star Trek tradition because I know back when we were, you know, for the TNG g podcast, my co-host did all the deep dives, but every single shuttle was named after somebody significant, whether it was a famous scientist or, you know, physicist or astronaut or someone from the crew or someone's family member from the crew or a fan who was like a super amazing fan who like, you know, tragically passed away or whatever. So that's a really special tradition. That's like,
00:27:56
Speaker
just for the crew. You know what I mean? Like we wouldn't necessarily pick up on that, but they're putting it in for their own hearts. And I think that's really beautiful. Yeah. And then the last note I have is actually some snippets from Wilson Cruz being interviewed on the black carpet.
00:28:11
Speaker
during the Discovery premiere about this episode, he had some things to say. And and to me, this is the most important part of the episode was Dr. Culber becoming some other person and inhabiting an entirely different persona, different voice, different body language.
00:28:29
Speaker
ah So Wilson Cruz said, I mean, when I tell you the anxiety involved in creating this character, Janelle was a mountain I had to climb. And thank God they sent send it to me a little early. I had a couple of weeks to figure it out. And you know, what's really great is they were like, you could do whatever you want. Not great, because as an actor, you need some boundaries. You need some parameters to work with. And they were like, we trust you. It was really important for me to get it right, because it really set up the rest of the season for me, ah meaning Culver. And I really wanted Janelle to stay with Culver throughout the season. And you'll see why.
00:28:58
Speaker
towards the end, but you know what, that in some way he even affected me after it was all over. So this is a long-running Star Trek tradition well that where the writers will just dump something on the actors and be like, figure it out. The actors, because actors, that's why there's a director, people. The director tells the actor what to do, and it's the actor's job to interpret the direction and deliver it. And if it's a wrong, then the director is supposed to correct that in some way. But if either the director nor the writer or the producers know what's supposed to happen, sometimes you'll just get figured out.
00:29:34
Speaker
But the thing is, these actors are so talented. so talent that it's like And maybe it's taken for granted, like in this case, where they're like, but you're so good at acting. That's why they said, we trust you. like You're so good at this. We know you can do it. and they're like But that's not how I work. right But as viewers, when we see the performances, we're like, wow, that was great. like There's nothing in our minds that's like,
00:29:56
Speaker
they didn't get enough direction and that or something they like that. Do you know what I mean? Because they're so gifted at their craft. But um that's a good point. I didn't think about that. That could be extremely stressful if you're not getting direction for what exactly you want to do because you don't know if it's right or wrong. And you're just hoping with everything that it's consistent, at least.
00:30:15
Speaker
But to your point that also the other side of that coin is sometimes more like, why did this was bad acting or a bad performance? it The same circumstances could have existed. And it's just that it winds up being a performance that doesn't work or rubs people the wrong way. But it's the same process that gets you there. You know, the neither the director nor the writer or the producer knew what instruction to give. And so it was left up to the actor to figure it out. And sometimes actors instincts are spot on.
00:30:44
Speaker
And sometimes they're not. William Shatner very famously, I believe it was Nicholas Meyer or other directors have said that Shatner has all the wrong instincts, but you can direct him into a performance. And what Nicholas Meyer says is that he found out is that Shatner gets tired and he gets tired pretty fast. So you save his coverage for the end. So you have everyone, you shoot the scene in the master, you do all the other closeups, all the other angles, and they shoot him last.
00:31:13
Speaker
He's so tired and I'm not going to say bored because I've never seen William Shatner be anything other than like he, he was always like the his call. He was early to call. He was always ready. He knew his lines. So he works hard and having lived out of a car, obviously he's like, I'm here to work. I'm here to do the job, but he just gets tired. And if you save him to the end, he would suddenly become this very natural, real, vulnerable performance on screen. So that was how like that that's Shatner, but like there are other actors that you don't need to do that much work for.
00:31:41
Speaker
But and it just it's worth pointing out like acting is an alchemy. It's not like ah a rigid science There's an art to it. It's like it is a craft. It's all these things you say and Actors the reason why they get a lot of anxiety when they don't know what to do. Well, if they're good, they'll figure it out They're good because they learn to trust direction they learn all these skills and traits and yes freestyling they can apply all those things and We have to also remember at all times, if you just step way back, and a lot of people live their lives this way, where they watch media that was such a remove, it's all pretty embarrassing. All TV and film is, is recording make believe. You know, we see the graphics on screen when Seneca Martin Green is pressing the pop-up display, but recording that on the day, you know she's just doing the air. She's just having to make that look like it matters, like she's not,
00:32:34
Speaker
totally embarrassed by what she's doing. You know, you have to wear weird makeup and costumes like just makeup that you wouldn't wear in your normal day to day. Men and women are, you know, anyone, everybody, like yeah everybody has to wear it ah weird costumes and you have to see weird things that you never would in your normal day to day. It's all very artificial and it can all be very silly. And so actors, you know, i my hats are off and the show is like the show is a perfect reminder of like, you know,
00:33:03
Speaker
Actors work very hard. They work very hard to create a reality to sell something. And sometimes they are given absolute piles of manure trucks that they have to make look like, oh, this is actually delicious food. And and and I accredit to everybody that they are able to do it at in any way, at any degree in a lot of cases, sometimes they're not. But
Storytelling and Character Interactions
00:33:25
Speaker
at least in this case, I really wanted to mention any part of Wilson Cruz's performance as often as possible because it was It was, to me at least, a standout and also a very interesting performance, I think you would agree. Yeah. Let's get into the greats, great scenes. I guess I have, I don't know, three, but I just put it as one. I loved all the scenes with Tarina and Saru. I just love seeing them together. It just makes me happy. You gotta love these kids. Yeah, you just gotta read for them. Yeah, it just makes me happy and I love, like,
00:33:55
Speaker
um there There was one part in the third, I think they had three scenes in this in this episode together, just the two of them, um but there was ah in their last scene together where Saru apologizes for overstepping his boundaries or whatever and she's just like, you know, and and he's like, well, I was afraid of conflict. I've never had conflict with somebody that I love like this. And she said something to the effect of conflict is to be expected in any relationship. It's also to be expected in any political career and it's nothing to be afraid of. I just really loved that. It was like giving him permission to have conflict in the relationship which is so important which is also how you know they haven't been together that long because there should be conflict in the relationship probably before you get married you should probably know that this is a thing that will happen but in any case i love the way that she kind of gave him permission to
00:34:40
Speaker
be uncomfortable about it, but also to not be afraid of it. Like, yes, this will happen. This is a thing that will happen. And it's okay. It's not a threat to our relationship at all. Um, so yeah, that's what I put as favorite scene. I was just like, Tarina and Saroo, blah, blah, blah, Tarina and Saroo, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, every, every Tarina and Saroo. You bring up a good point because we have two relationships, one that's just starting and one that ends in this one. And yet the maturity level of both of those relationships is exactly equal.
00:35:09
Speaker
And that that to me is what this show is like. it No character really emotionally. ah maturity has escaped like ah achieved escape velocity from like sophomore or junior college. No, I'll give them college trying to figure it out of like that basic level of of, I'm a sophomore, I know what I don't want, but I don't know what I do want, and I'm gonna make that everyone's problem. So it's just, I don't know, but again, you're always rooting for those crazy kids. um So those are your three great scenes.
00:35:43
Speaker
I had zero great scenes because again, I have a different standard for great scenes. There are certainly good scenes or moments. I liked the scene between Burnham and Rayner that set up Rayner's runner in the episode or subplot in the episode, because I liked the performances and I liked the idea. I'll get into that. Some part of that later, that scene later, that was fine. I generally liked all the interview scenes. I thought they were, they were solid, but they weren't great. They were just kind of in a way perfunctory.
00:36:12
Speaker
but well-performed, kind of interesting. There are things I certainly appreciated, but I gotta put this in here because I have zero. But this episode did almost make me consider adding a new grade or question, which is the Unintentional Comedy Award. Because one thing that Discovery does to its detriment, I think, or just to a fault, how about that, is they do these opening or closing montages that over top of them is absolute pablum, just
00:36:43
Speaker
completely vacuous, empty dialogue to to suggest something profound. But it's not it never as interesting as the visual visuals in a lot of cases. And it doesn't really encapsulate. It aims for a theme that the episode doesn't necessarily ah deliver. In this case, it's Gray who's delivering this closing montage and goes on about connection. And if we connect with people, that will lead us to ourselves. Because again, everything's ultimately about yourself.
00:37:12
Speaker
There's a weird kind of like line that the show is going with. You connect with people so that you understand yourself better. It's like, me, me, me. and And here's why we're never going to have a utopic society. Yeah, exactly. So I just think it was funny because after the speech and the montage, the visuals, the ah the the leader, oh shoot, Gee, I can't remember Gee's Guardian, Guardian Gee.
00:37:37
Speaker
there's like a little half beat and and he goes thank you gray just made me laugh going did gray speak out of turn and surprise him all with this long monologue and then like guardian g was just and then guardian g just politely just said so that they could move on without incident being like thank you And then they finish the ceremony because that's how it kind of played if you're half paying attention Which I was on the rewatch and that that's a little funny because I'm not like a big fan of of their way They do those you know montages and I just thought would be and since we're saying goodbye to great anyway I'm not saying it's unintentional. We're John doing an unintentional and comedy grade. I just thought that was funny and I thought this was the place to put it ah best trick tropes
00:38:21
Speaker
um I have two. The first one is this idea that on an entire planet, the prize or the goal is always located near people and places we know. So, and it's like a whole planet, right? It's not like just this one colony we visited. It's a whole planet. But whatever we need to do on this planet, it's going to be at that one colony. So that's very much a trek trope where, you know, it's almost like um mike my co-host from the TNG podcast had mentioned it this way. She said it's like, it's like the Star Wars rules of there's a whole desert planet.
00:38:52
Speaker
or whole ice planet or whole water planet. And you're like, what kind of planet has one biome? Like the planet would not survive without having mountains and forests and this and that, you know, but it's like the whole planet's desert. Sure. Why not? And it's very the same thing with Star Trek. There's always like the planetary leader and we're like the leader of a planet, but it's always a planetary leader and they're always in a little town where you know everybody. So it's very much a trope, but I actually appreciate this so much as a viewer, because even though that's really implausible, it makes following the storyline so much easier. Because if they go to such and such, if they go to Trill, I better see gray. I better see the goo caves. Like I have to see all the things I wreck would recognize that or else I'm going to be like, two caves of true. Yes. Or I'm going to say, where are we? What planet is this? You know what I mean? So I had first put it in worst trek tropes because I was like, this is just kind of dumb, but then I changed my mind and put it in best because I was like, actually, this is super helpful. And I appreciate that. And it's okay if there's one planetary leader because.
00:39:52
Speaker
I don't have to think so hard of who this person is and where we are. I can focus more on the actual story you're trying to get. Yeah, this is a criticism that Star Trek gets sometimes for some reason. I think it's people who are either casual viewers or fans. It's kind of like the same of like, and also they have this prime directive that they follow. It's like, well, most of the time whenever they invoke the prime directive, oh, they just let a bunch of a planet die or whatever.
00:40:16
Speaker
It's very rare that they've mentioned the prime directive and it's not been the central conflict of the story. And to your point of like what is most important dramatically that we just understand that they're on trill or are this alien world and this person or section of people represents the values that are dramatically relevant to the story we're about to tell. That's what's going on here. And ah the planetary president thing, yeah, sure. ah but But we do see sometime, at least in TNG, they would sometimes get at factions or that these people are representing their planet for a galactic body. You know, the the Federation is a galactic body. So ah maybe in the real Federation, if this sort to really happened, there would be multiple re ah representatives or a delegation that represents this planet. The speaking as one voice thing, I think, is sort of the bigger thing of like,
00:41:08
Speaker
what represents our values. I'm glad you put it in the Best Trek trope. I agree. Yeah. Any others? Yeah. My second one that I put under Best Trek tropes, this is specifically for Discovery, is Boomerang characters. So this show has a lot of tearful goodbyes, but no worries. We're going to see them in like a couple of episodes, or at the very least next season.
00:41:27
Speaker
So I kind of like that too, because I feel like with a show like this, with any TV show really, the writers, everybody is working so hard to get us to connect with and love these characters. So when you just start writing them off left and right, what was the point of that? Like it's so much effort to get us to even care about these characters and want to see what happens in their storylines. So I do, I put it in best trek tropes that they are always bringing the characters back, because to me, it just feels like as a viewer, if that was your favorite person, you're like, oh, my favorite person's back, you know? But also,
00:41:57
Speaker
It's like I don't want to do the work. I personally don't want to do the work of getting to know a bunch of new characters. Like, I don't want that. That's what season one was for. and So, like, now I just want to, you know, add on to the characters we have, but don't just start, like, cutting all the characters. So, you know, Tilly comes to mind. Grey comes to mind where it's like, oh, I'll never see you again. Oh, wait, we're going to see you in, like, two episodes. yeah So, yeah, that's that's me. What about you? I put that as, i you know, I want to take that and just put it attached to mind with connection. I put it as a best trick trope because Kristen and I started doing
00:42:30
Speaker
maybe are almost like our favorite Trek tropes. And when they're positive and like one of my main ones is how Captain Pike is just the total himbo, like he never, and I think it's actually detrimental to the character of the show, but I actually just enjoy it. Cause there you have, if you're making like a legal argument, there's so much evidence. It's like a table full of evidence of like, this guy is a total himbo. He doesn't know anything. Why is he in charge? He's just going to sign off on everything. Everybody else. That's right.
00:42:57
Speaker
But the connection thing is so funny because it's like they're the way they talk about it, it's like they discovered it. The idea of human connection. and like and we're We're the only show to ever deal with human connection. But connection is the source of all drama. And you connect through like in drama through friction, friction, which is how they do it all. Like you're fighting through something where you're trying to negotiate something to make that connection. So it's just funny to me that their theme of connection is actually really just
00:43:30
Speaker
It falls under like drama. yeah it's almost What have we made a show about drama? It's almost like, you know what our secret sauce is as a TV show? We tell stories and that's what other shows don't do. ah we tell We tell stories and you're like, well. Yeah. This car has tires and a steering wheel. Yes. Unlike other cars, we have pop holders in our cars.
00:43:52
Speaker
OK. So I just think that's pretty silly. I like the Star Trek best trope as the gruff new guy who rubs the crew the wrong way. I guess I should say new person. Rolarian, they like built in why people don't like Rolarian. She got a bunch of people killed. OK. Seven of nine was a Borg. That's me. And then Wharf on Deepsea Stein, that was less friction, but it was like very important, and also it's Wharf. His like reputation precedes him. ah He would butt up against how they did things, and that was fine. ah Jellico, though, here's the difference between Raynor and Jellico, and it's actually not very subtle.
00:44:32
Speaker
Jellico came in aboard the Enterprise and he immediately started saying, I don't like that. We're not doing that. You're changing your clothes. Like he came in and he said, I don't like season six of TNG. g You've all gotten too set in your ways. We're in the late nineties now, not the late eighties. Gene Roddenberry is dead. We're doing it this way.
00:44:50
Speaker
Like, that is a that was a different style altogether, where Raynor is like, I was a captain, this is how I did things, I know it works. By the way, we're on a very critical mission right now, and I'm working the problem of this mission. So the fact that I have to sit here and get to know my crew, when, by the way, I did all the homework, I read all your personnel files, and it seems like I memorized them, if you want to quiz me.
00:45:15
Speaker
ah I get it. I understand what you're trying to do, but I got to do it this way because there's more important things going on. That's a subtle difference from I don't like the way you do things. And since I'm the captain, I can make these changes wholesale. So that's different. Also, it seems like the idea that what really is happening here dramatically, it's I'm still a best trek joke because I like the conflict it creates, but it is a bit of a dodge of the actual conflict is a cruise mad at Burnham.
00:45:44
Speaker
and they And she leaves the ship while they're mad at her. Immediately. She's like, all right, crew, this is my new first officer. You guys remember him from that thing we did before, right? Right? OK, great. So I'm out of here. yeah He's in charge. I'll be back eventually if I don't die on this away mission. OK, bye, guys. Tilly's in such a codependent relationship with Burnham, though. She can't see it. she can't So she's defending. She's defending Burnham. you know Tilly's another one. As we were talking, I was like, Tilly and Adira, they wrote both of these characters very like,
00:46:12
Speaker
him high, like as geniuses, right? Like they're both like the smartest people on the ship. But every time they open their mouths, they're very much like, excuse me, sir, I don't, I might have an opinion. And it's like, whatever.
00:46:27
Speaker
I mean, according to Adira, she's a great instructor, so maybe she'll talk loudly. I don't trust Adira's judgment. Adira's judgment's not to be trusted. Oh my gosh, I don't know. Tilly's on leave because she got too many questions and the students were annoying her.
00:46:46
Speaker
liked the character of Tilly and I liked her in the first season because she was so like pointing out the but just laying out the facts. No, I'm just saying I do like this character and in the first season when Burnham was like the bad guy and Tilly was like, I'll be your friend. It was very Tom pairs Harry Kim. But now we're like in the fifth season. So I want transformation. Like especially if it's going to be a serial like I want And her transformation is like a, in roles and like titles and responsibilities, but I want her to be less like, I don't know, but in this, in this episode, we're going to talk about it later. She does go off on Rainer and I was like, good for you. Look at you having opinions and using your words and not just like, excuse me, sir. You know,
00:47:28
Speaker
I've got two more, the smooth operation of government. In this case, we got the ambassador meeting, the conversation debate, exchange agreement voting. These are sort of like an ideal that Star Trek talks about. And because of the circumstances of each episode, you know, Kirk's basically reading the constitution, Picard's talking about, here's how we do things, but rarely do we get to see sort of inner workings. And in this case, a smooth operation of government. Now, again, not really dramatic.
00:47:52
Speaker
Right. There's nothing really dramatic. We get it's mainly there to set up that the brain are an issue, ah which ah feels like you could do more with the scene. But also there is something to be said about Saru taking to it and being so, you know, it works very quickly. He's good at his job. It's establishing. It's establishing a lot, even if it's not actually dramatic. But as a trope, it's like good to see how much of Star Trek in the last 10 years has been about deconstructing Star Trek, right? So here's an actual example of the best Trek trope of like what there what the Star Trek ah mystique is all about being used here. The other one, you said the goo caves of Trill, but basically Trill mysticism and the whole symbiont symbiosis thing, the Zhentar ritual. I've never been anti-Trill. I've never really thought about it too deeply either. I like that Deep Space Nine played with it enough where it's like, you know,
00:48:43
Speaker
It's kind of like a class thing and anyone can be a trill, you know, or can, can join with a, with a trill, um, to be in, and that was like a nice tweak on it. Um, but otherwise it's just, it's nice to see it's good here as a clue in a clue trail. It's, uh, interesting too. I was a little bummed that they really did the old lady's death off screen, the Bix host.
00:49:06
Speaker
yeah He's like, I'm ready to die. Good thing you showed up. I was holding on until someone showed up. But then you're like, couldn't you just put them in another host? like Well, and that's, well, I'm sure that will happen. You have to go through all the training in the history. Well, no, but I'm saying for this lady who's like, I'm just so tired and I just want to, okay, well, there's no like out button where you can be like, all right, where's my replacement? I've been training for the last four years. It's once you join, you join until the host dies. You can't like just tag out.
00:49:36
Speaker
Yeah. But I mean, the way she was just like, I've been holding on. It's like, OK, but you didn't. Because I think the idea is like you're still living your life. You just have this thing inside you. Yeah. And so she's just like, I've been waiting for someone to come. I don't know. That was when they introduced the trill. They were able to. Well, whatever. Doesn't matter. Keep going. Worst worst trek tropes.
00:49:56
Speaker
um I only have oh one, and that's when they're standing in the rocks and Burnham is like, oh no, the composition of the mineral in the rock is such that we can't possibly use our transporters. And I was like, oh, transporters. I did an entire video on my YouTube channel about the limitations of transporters, like or just how transporters work, I guess. But that to me was like, oh, here we go again. This incredible piece of technology that could easily save us. We have to come up with some reason why it can't just easily save us.
00:50:25
Speaker
And we couldn't have the transporter button fell off when I was running from the fiery barb. It has to be like, oh, the composition of the mineral in this rock. And we can't possibly walk like five feet away from the rock and then push the button because I didn't just work three minutes ago in this exact same scene. I was running through the same quarry that's covered in the rock and I was fine. No problem.
00:50:45
Speaker
Yeah, i I put the personal transporters as the worst trek trips. I actually like the personal transporters a lot. And then you just have to remember that the entire reason the transporters exist was like as a budget concern where Roddenberry is like, well, we can't land a ship every week and we can't land a shuttle every week. So we'll do this beaming thing. And here, like Discovery's taken it to the extreme. To the best level possible. How cool is it? Well, it's a thin it's a thin line. It's like that thin line between insane and genius because It's a production thing to a weird degree that like makes you wonder, where's how's the money being spent? like They're literally beaming into ah rooms on the scene on the ship, so it's like, what, you don't have the time or money to set up the hallway? They never walk. way they Yeah, never you don't want to move. like It's a set thing. But then in the an ambassador scene, it's a two-level set, and Terena's aide and Saru are going to talk in private. So they go into a little,
00:51:41
Speaker
ah uh chamber and then they beam upstairs because there were no stairs built between them in the real set they didn't want to go like i it just seemed like they you're just talking to it seemed like a weird yeah it seemed like a weird in world thing of like people are just beaming from one floor to the and other that just seems very yeah wasteful seems like very strange but anyway so i put that there for but it looks so cool And every time I see it, I'm like, ooh, it's exactly like the transporters. It's exactly like
Trek Tropes and Humorous Critiques
00:52:10
Speaker
the transporters in the transporter room. Every time I see it, I'm like, ooh, it's I've been watching these transporters for over 30 years and they're still cool. I'm so glad. Beaming upstairs was where I was like, come on.
00:52:21
Speaker
Well Adira beamed to like whatever like the bridge or whatever like last episode or maybe it was this episode where they were like oh we're looking for you and Adira's like okay boop and I was like you can't just isn't that like the next room but it still looked cool so I was like well let me not complain very well I enjoy looking at it. uh aliens existing only to establish to establish the bare minimum of jeopardy so these are the interox hunting grounds but it's also where they keep their eggs which i understand that actually janelle might have been lying by saying these are their hunting grounds it just seems also weird though to have eggs in the middle of
00:52:55
Speaker
ah open space so it's it's like ah but anyway it's the and these aliens can insects can cloak and shoot fire and and fly yeah and fly and then said there was one of them the one was bad enough but then suddenly there are two you know what I mean it's just like whatever ah Going for the joke instead of the character, i so this is a new era of Star Trek but trope now, but the interview sequence is basically a series of punchlines. For most of them, it's Star Trek Easter eggs. If you listen, like most of them are just there referencing something from Star Trek until we get to the dirt bike joke and then ah Reno talking about usually there's chips at these. I never thought this would be a trope for Star Trek, where they would always go for the joke instead of the drama.
00:53:42
Speaker
Uh, like the actual meaningful character development, but it, the shows are more than willing. The new shows have been more than willing to sell out character. If they can tell something that's funny because they want to keep it moving and all that stuff. Um, you know, no one, ah if people have a problem with, to the point I'm trying to make, if it's true, what Burnham said, and there's no reason to deny it, that people have a problem with Rainer. No one uses their 20 words to state their problem with Rainer.
00:54:11
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's, that's what I'm talking about with actual drama and conflict. Except for Tilly. But that was only after 100 interviews. And this is my next one. that That the low ranked officers are being brat. It's brat summer all taught all the time with Discovery and Strange New Worlds. Ohura and Tilly, their senior officer, like rank doesn't matter to them. Tilly taking her permission ah to speak freely as like you go girl kind of thing. Energy is I don't know. I think there is a professional, polished, a mature way of doing the same thing that she did. But begin again, because they're basically emotionally as mature as sophomores in college, that is how it goes. Mary Wiseman, you know have you heard though that trip that goes around? There are certain actors that
00:55:00
Speaker
I think it's like Olivia Cook for House of the Dragon. It's like, no, her face looks like she knows what a cell phone is and she's playing a character and and in a time frame where they don't know all that. Mary Wiseman constantly looks like she she's her performance clearly is like I just looked up for my cell phone and now I'm delivering this line.
00:55:18
Speaker
And so it's it's always incongruous with the moment, even though it's conveying the exact emotion that they're trying to get at. And so i know it for me, it's a worse trick joke that the not because I need a rigid chain of command, but because Tilly's whole attitude the whole time was similar to her outburst. You know what I mean? Like she wasn't going like, OK, I'm going to try it his way. And then she lost. it Right. She was losing it the whole time. And then she just lost it more. Yeah. More dramatically. So.
00:55:46
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you. I think the way she spoke was completely out of line and disrespectful. However, I just like that someone said it. So that was my thing is like, why is no one actually to to your point, why is no one said this is my problem with Rainer? And I think it's because of the power imbalance, right? Nobody wants to say anything negative to the first officer. And I guess only Burnham can. I'm not really sure how that would work. um Again, they're all, that's just like a, this is the video game thing that I was saying last week. Then they're all just NPCs. And they're all just like a setting of person. They're not characters. They're just like, they're all the under. So only Tilly's the one that's going to speak up and say something. But Tilly was speaking up the whole time.
00:56:29
Speaker
So it's it doesn't like create extra drama. Anyway, I like you're right, though. Someone needed to say it. And of course, it was going to be Tilly. And then the last one I had was Lafarge Corey. That's basically now Toronto's Vasquez Rocks. It's been in several disco and Strange New Worlds episodes. Now, why am I putting this as a worst trek trope? Because here it looks like Lafarge Corey in such an obvious way. They didn't really do anything interesting with it, at least in my opinion. that kind of not a fun use of it in this case. They're just kind of running around the rocks from nothing, from a cloaked thing that they, you know, that's firing barbs at them. Most cosplayable character or moment? So that was easy for me.
00:57:11
Speaker
It was the Cellae delegate in the ambassador's conversation. So the Cellae were one of the easily worst makeup jobs ever done on Star Trek T&G. And that was season one, episode seven, Lonely Among Us. And me and me and my co-hosts were like, these are the worst, I mean, their costumes. So basically it was like a ah species that was all snakes and a species that were all like wolves or dogs or something. And it legit looked like they got these masks from Party City.
00:57:37
Speaker
And they just put them on really tall people. And they were like running around the ship trying to attack each other. And, you know, my co host and I were like, this is, ah they didn't even bother with makeup, they just lit the mask on, they didn't even bother. And it was so bad. But in this scene with Saru, when they're going around the table and talking to all the ambassadors, there's like this quick cut scene to a cell a delegate that looks so legit. Now granted,
00:58:00
Speaker
probably the entire costume was CGI'd, so there probably still was no makeup, but it looked so good. Like, it looked like a giant snake. It did not look like a Party City costume mask. And I was like...
00:58:12
Speaker
the green cloak who looked really stylish. Yeah, I was like with you. It looked great. And I was just like, OK, this feels like a do over of how terrible the makeup was. And I'm here for it. It feels like we know that, but we're going to fix it right now just for two seconds in a quick scene. We're going to fix it. And it just made me feel like my younger self has now been satisfied. So if I could get a costume that looks as sick as this, I would do that. And the second is also from this ambassadorial meeting. And it's. um the guy who was complaining the most. He had this really cool scarf that like wrapped around um his throat and then down the side of his body. and It had these like silver bands on it that kind of looked like DNA strands and it was just so beautiful. and I would wear that in my everyday life and also as cosplay. so Those are my two. What about you? Well, I'm with you, the glow up for the celly. That was mine right on. That looks cool. Now it's time for the line must be drawn here. Great lines. and Do you want to start this one off?
00:59:11
Speaker
Rainer, the meetings are exactly as long as they need to be, a Lieutenant. And then ah I have one that's for silly reasons. so What's your one for silly reasons? Colbert as Janelle, we wanted the power to be found, but only by a worthy seeker and only when the time was right. ah Again, I'm now as I've talked through this episode and rewatch it, I'm like, all right, if the scientists had a spiritual awakening or journey through their own little side, mission this mission to find it, I can now understand why a scientist is speaking as though they've read ancient texts or they're like Dungeons and Dragons characters on the quest. but it's just so funny to hear because what um cold was a Dungeons and Dragons quest now that I think about it yes well because what Wilson Cruz is giving is a lot more tough guy than like
01:00:02
Speaker
spiritual texts. Yeah, exactly. That his dialogue is so it's just an like a funny incongruity. His regular voice is very soothing and calm. And I think this is at least a contrast. Because I think if it would have went go with guru, it might have been hard to tell the difference because he would have just been more soothing and more calm. And maybe just talk s slower. So I'm glad he didn't go that route because I don't have the patience first. No, no, I totally agree. It was a great choice.
01:00:26
Speaker
So I liked when ah Rainer was like, that was a joke to break the ice. And it was just complete silence from Burnham. That just was great to me where it was like, and she was just like, hmm. So clearly that joke was not funny. And so I like that he's doing the work to find out Earth jokes. So he is He really is putting in, he's like all logical and like no heart, but he is putting in a lot of work to get to know everybody in his own way, more work than anyone else has ever put in or anyone would, right? Cause they'll be like, Oh, I'll just meet them as we, as we go along. But he's like, I've read every one of their files and you're like, Oh, okay. When did you have time for that? Anywho, um, I liked, I really liked when Burnham said to Rainer, connection is not a skill. It's a choice. I'm going to steal that for life because this is a good thing to remember. Connection is not a skill.
01:01:12
Speaker
I do think there is a skill in connection, so I don't totally agree with that. But I do agree with that, it's also a choice. like You can choose to flex those muscles and get to know people, or you could choose not to. And for me, as a as a more of an you know an introvert or ambivert, like i I like that reminder of like, oh yeah, this is a choice. You can always make that choice to your benefit or detriment. And then I liked when Janal was inside Culver and says he says, wow, this guy really works out. I really like that scene. Because I was like, right? I mean, that maybe I should have put that in best Star Trek tropes, is that the whole cast is always just like,
01:01:51
Speaker
So, I mean, to fit in their costumes, you know, they they like have to stay whatever size they were, they have to stay that size for however many seasons of the show there is. And that is really hard to do as an adult in my experience. um And I remember thinking, especially with TNG and with like Marina Sertes, the actress who plays Council Troy, her she has a love of chocolate, right? But my co-host discovered in her deep dives that every time that actress would eat chocolate on the set, she had a spit bucket.
01:02:17
Speaker
because she couldn't actually gain a pound because she wouldn't fit in those uniforms anymore that are like skin tight. So I don't know, I just like that scene. That's the line when he was like, wow, this guy really works out. Because I was like, I bet you he does. And he probably has a little bit of pressure to keep working out because his entire body's on display every time he's at work. Yeah. Any others? No, that's it. yeah Would this be a fun, hollow novel to play out? I said, nope, hard pass. What about you?
01:02:44
Speaker
I say, I'm going to say yes to the trill portion of the episode. I don't think the Federation portray, like the ambassador stuff looks all that fun or interesting. And if you had to do the crew interviews or even on either side of that equation, that would not be fun. But I would say the run and jump and going to the underground goo caves and all that stuff would be fun. What would this, maybe this should be another question we asked just for discovery. Cause it's such a video game. Like what's the best save point?
01:03:11
Speaker
in this episode. Is it right when you get to white right when you get the mission to go follow Janelle? That's when you save or you save as soon as you're out on the as soon as you hear Janelle say we wanted it to be someone who was worthy. That's when you save right before you meet the big monsters, because you're going to get killed multiple times over before you discover the secret to the scene is not fighting at all. Like that's going to be a couple of times before you figure that out. You're probably going to have to do a walkthrough or find some cheat codes.
01:03:40
Speaker
for the rest of that team. I didn't put that as a best track trope. I put it as worse and then I just forgot to say it, but you just reminded me like the solve being like, we need to connect with them. And then the connection is not fighting. It just there. It's only because book can speak to them with his brain that it makes sense at all. But like as a normal test, those are just ah monsters that are not going to have the nuance of like guns, threat, no guns.
01:04:06
Speaker
uh no threat not a threat yeah it doesn't make sense but also what would they have done without book yes exactly so it would have been eaten i kind yeah i kind of like the save point idea that that we we keep this in mind going forward for the season all right um and So yeah, I like the trail portion anyway, as a fun adventure. The Anton Caridian Award for Best Performance. Now, are you really going to fight me on this if I say Wilson Cruz as you go? No, no. We'll go with that. It might be campy. I don't know. Some people might. He might have been playing it sort of knowingly, but it was such a breath. Like it was like because I watched these right when they drop at midnight and it was like cold water had been splashed on me because I was falling asleep. And I was like, what's happening? This is ah like he's like this is someone.
01:04:51
Speaker
Another problem with late in the season show run shows is that everyone gets tired of their characters and they just fall into these old patterns and old habits. And sometimes when they get challenged because they haven't had to really work the muscle, it doesn't really, whatever they're, they're going for, they either go for very little or they go for too much. I think he really went for it, but he really, really worked at it. And you could tell that he was trying to do something very specific. I really liked it. All right. Um, the Shatner then. Um, yeah, I don't know. I put.
01:05:20
Speaker
I put ah Gray during in the breakup scene. I liked their clarity and just like, I don't know, like comparing and contrasting Gray and Adira, for whatever reason, and maybe this is just me, Gray seemed to be acting and Adira seemed to be reciting lines. So like in that scene, Gray is like,
01:05:42
Speaker
you know, we really need to talk because things are different. And there's like, I don't even know how to start this conversation. And then Gray is like, well, you know what I mean? And so the comparison was like, okay, I'm going to give it to Gray because Gray seemed like they were really acting like in the scene, in the emotions, not just remembering everything they have to say in the order and the, and how many stumbles they need to have, you know? All right. We'll go with that. My, I, I'm sure this will come up again. Anthony Rapp delivering exposition is a painful,
01:06:12
Speaker
painful thing to behold. That is not to say that Anthony Rapp is a terrible performer or that Stamets is a bad character, just that, and he gets a lot of exposition to say, so you see it a lot. But in that interview scene where he gets excited explaining the progenitor's tech, which is what finally sets Tilly off when Rayner just dismisses him, I really thought him trying to convey that Stamets was excited, really bumped up against, uh, it strained it. but Again, the Shatner is not necessarily bad acting, but he was really trying to sell like Stamets is very excited. And I think the combination of, of technobabble plus trying to convey
01:06:50
Speaker
this geek who doesn't express his emotion very much excitedly, it all kind of worked against the moment it stood out as like, what am I watching here? But your point is better because one is a scene partner is one scene partners. It's like a ah seesaw. You've got like an imbalance here. So someone's really trying to sell what the moment is. I'll go with that. But i I need to and I need to get out of my system once and for all, like Anthony Rappin, techno babble is not a happy marriage. And and this but five years of enduring it.
Exciting Sequences and Video Game Comparisons
01:07:20
Speaker
finally get to say it all right shoot to thrill most exciting image or sequence Oh, well it's got to be the giant cloaking bugs that spit fire. Like everything about that was great. Mine was, I thought, visualizing something that Deep Space Nine couldn't do in a way that looked natural and fit right in with where they were because those bugs in the cloaking it felt very much like a video game and like a cutscene and like it felt kind of not that the actors in that were all in the same element so the scene where the symbiont swims away at the end
01:07:56
Speaker
that shot of it I thought looked amazing ah because that's we've never seen them move basically independently because you know they've been puppets that have had to be held in Deep Space Nine. So I really appreciated that they were able to visualize something we knew intuitively and just to see how it displaces the water and how it gets deeper as it goes further along. like like a little worm mite if it's swimming away or a tadpole. I just thought that was cool. So I like that. What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy? um I said making peace with fire bugs. That seems important to know if you ever come across them. Yeah, same beat. Burnham's line. Basic Zeno anthropology. Show respect to the one you're studying.
01:08:39
Speaker
It's basics, you know anthropology, everybody knows this. If you're out in Safari and a lion goes to attack you, just show it respect. Just nod your head, empathically connect with its emotions, and it'll let you go every time. Connect to this creature you're only intruding on the territory of to get something you need, but connect with it.
01:09:02
Speaker
Yeah. What about you? Uh, same thing. That was the same thing. Burnham's line, basically Zeeman anthropology. I thought it was encapsulated in that. Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better?
Could the Episode Have Been Hornier?
01:09:13
Speaker
I said yes. And probably it's, uh, I don't think there's any, anything horny in this episode. I mean, literally Adira asked this person, they haven't seen in a long time. Can I hug you? And I get it there at work.
01:09:28
Speaker
Everyone's at work, but and guardian seem like holy figures also, maybe like a priest or something. I'm not, yes, but they don't seem into each other. And I think one of them being horny for each other would have been great. But also I got, we gotta be honest, Wilson Cruz is giving a horny performance. Janelle looks like he's ready to fuck the whole time. It's pretty cool. when they find him on the path and he's like laying out in the sun, unzipping his shirt. ah So the episode does have an element of horniness to it, but I think it could have been hornier. I agree with you. I think it would have made it better. It would have either one, um like I said, there were two relationships going on. Terena and Saru being even hornier. I know we love those crazy kids. You know what I mean? So we're only gonna really basically see them being fond of each other. And it's all very rational and logical and all that stuff. But a little passion,
01:10:16
Speaker
on either of those relationships would have been something I thought. I figure we never see the two of them kiss, not because they're not very emotional, but because the prosthetic situation is just like unwieldy. Oh, no, no, I'm sure. But I mean, I think they're such good actors that they can with a look or ah a body motion. Yes. It's written in a way can convey like passion, you know, that after they get through their first argument and then like, I really want to, you know, they could have turned that way. tired to our apartment yes or something where you're like, Ooh, I know what they're going to do. Yeah. I don't know how they're going to do it though. Yeah. Tarina could have been like, one of the benefits of conflict resolution is enjoying. The making up in the end. Yes, exactly. Wink, wink. All right.
Is it a Trek or a Kill?
01:11:01
Speaker
So Trek, Merry, or Kill, Janal.
01:11:03
Speaker
I said Trek. I thought it was a good episode. It wasn't mind blowing, but it wasn't bad. It didn't make me angry. So that's what I said. What about you? what ah This had what you killed the last episode for, which is like too much clue trail stuff. Like they get to the point roll up on the planets. Like I can only.
01:11:22
Speaker
pose this riddle to you. Oh, you've answered this now you're here. Oh, but I have to tell you this and you have to go here to get this and the all the clue trail stuff. I killed this episode and it it would probably be a soft kill. But I said I had to have Cruz's performance splashed me awake. ah This episode many times and rewatching made me tired and fall asleep and everything that it was doing was so servicey as to be uninteresting to me. I don't feel like we posed. I don't think we plucked any scenes of real great dramatic conflict.
01:11:58
Speaker
um I we like that you said those are great scenes between screen answer I'm not gonna disagree with you but like ultimately I I pose those as like drama for drama's sake like what what are we really gaining from that relationship that we couldn't divine from just seeing these two characters come together Yeah, they're going to have problems. This is how they're going to resolve them. Like it's not hard to imagine how any of that goes. So the complication didn't seem all that interesting to me on that level. And again, the clue trail stuff. Oh, we have to hide in a rock and wait out a monster. Just didn't seem like it was all worth the effort that we were the expense to watch it and all that. And then all the Rayner stuff I liked. I like the performances. Again, it was kind of like what I said last week. I thought David Ajala's performance as book was
01:12:44
Speaker
kind of captivating, but here it's like Wilson Cruz is giving us all, even at the end when he's talking about his abuela, like that he's having the thing ah that the scientist probably had. He had this spiritual awakening that defied science and and suddenly it's opened his mind. That all communicated clearly. um But I just, this episode was kind of obnoxious to be the whole way through. So we're going to put it up for vote now. as If it's a trek,
01:13:12
Speaker
or a kill because I'm, it sounds like I didn't convince you. Oh no, you didn't convince me at all. I mean, I do agree with you that there's like a lot of pointlessness, but I think what frustrated me so much about the last episode was the like the poem, let's read the poem. Oh, things are shooting at us. Oh, there's another line in the poem. What's that line? Like all of that was just, it was the moment when I realized we're going to do this five more times.
01:13:33
Speaker
that I was just like... And then they do it in this one. They're like, there's a false rock by the monsters. And then where it was really hidden was just under one little stone for thousands of years, for a thousand years. It was just there on the common path that people would take. just like Right, to the monster's den. The one thing I really appreciated, though, I think this is what made it not a kill for me.
01:13:57
Speaker
is at the end, they didn't tell us anything about, they didn't show us this clue unfolding and what it leads to it like they did before when it was like, we thought it was Banazid, but it's really true. But did it they just, you know, Burnham just walks in and goes, well, we're on our way to the next location or whatever she said. And I was like, oh, thank goodness. Like, thank you. Thank you for spirit. And I think that probably if we would have done that again, I would have been like, okay, like last straw. But I think because they just implied it and I would appreciate if they just imply it for the rest.
01:14:24
Speaker
We found the piece. We figured out the next part. We're on to the next part. Great. That's all we need to know. I don't need to see it. I don't need to just keep going with the story. You know, you'll be in, you'll be very happy with next week's episode then. So okay good. Good. So the riddle was stupid. I agree. And I also thought, well, when mole and lock come, they're not going to, they're not going to answer riddle. So again, that's why I was like, burn them. You should tell them other people are coming that are going to do things differently, but turns out they didn't need to answer the riddle. So whatever.
01:14:53
Speaker
Security forces, uh, can handle them and then they immediately sleep, sneak, sneak led to in easily sacred place. Yeah. Being completely unchallenged. Yeah. Clearly not trill. So it was like, okay. One thing was like, well, that was ridiculously easy. Y'all need some security retraining as well. But then the second thing was, Oh, this is so interesting that they decided to go in a different direction from the blow everything up route. Yeah.
01:15:18
Speaker
So it kind of was like, oh, maybe these characters have more dimension than what we have seen so far because they didn't seem like stealthy and clever. They seem like smash and grab people. Yes. Which is literally the opposite of sneaky and of ninjas. It's like sneaky and you know, it's literally the opposite. So I don't know.
01:15:48
Speaker
Okay, we've been hinting at this for a long time. Let's finally
Star Trek Discovery Box Set Giveaway
01:15:51
Speaker
do it. We're giving away one box set of Star Trek Discovery, the complete series on Blu-ray, not season five, not and in any other individual seasons, the whole dang show. This is a region one disc set, so consider that when you're entering. We do have some international listeners. I will ship internationally if need be, but again, it's a region one disc because it's from the United States. ah So how should one enter for this giveaway? I think there's only one way to do it.
01:16:18
Speaker
Why, Charisse, whatever do you mean? Well, in the spirit of poetry and poems, why not send us a poem about Star Trek Discovery? It can be about this season, the series at large, a character, a moment, a vibe, whatever. And it can take whatever format you like.
01:16:33
Speaker
That's a great idea, a perfect one even. Whether or not you're a poet or you're a poet and you don't know it, I think it is is an opportunity for our listeners to just have some fun. ah There are nine forms of poetry, free verse, sonnet, you got your limerick, haiku, acrostic, that's where the letter of each line spells something out, a villanelle, but those are 19 lines. And we're not demanding, we're expecting something lengthy, you got odes, elegies, ballads, those are also forms of poetry too, so you know,
01:17:00
Speaker
just feel free to get creative and then we will read the entries and we will select our favorites and provide you with, in exchange as a giveaway, this Blu-ray box set. I want the recipient to receive the set before Christmas, so the deadline will be 11.59 p.m. Pacific time on December 1st. Send the poem to our show email, treknarykpod at gmail dot.com.
01:17:27
Speaker
Trace, you've got social media
Where to Find the Hosts Online
01:17:29
Speaker
accounts. let's Let's have people find them and find you because you're wonderful. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. If you go on to TikTok and you go and you search up at the sci fi savage, you can find my catalog of ridiculous, silly sci fi skits almost entirely about Star Trek, the next generation. And you can also find me on YouTube where I have much longer deep dives into things that are not real, like transporters and replicators and whatnot. But also searching up at the sci fi savage.
01:17:59
Speaker
And we're on the web at trekmaricopod.com where you can see all of our standings on social media, trekmaricopod. And we'll be back next week with an all new episode. So until then, TMK out.