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Increase Customer Engagement and Conversions– a conversation with Geoffrey Klein
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Geoffrey Klein is the founder of Nine Dots Media and a lecturer at Wharton Business School.
In his book The Content Beast Geoffrey explains how businesses can create story-driven content to connect with the right customers.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Geoffrey discusses his approach to brand storytelling with host Michael Millward.
Michael and Geoffrey describe the origins of their respective brands and explain that the story of a brand is the first stage of explaining to a perspective customer what you do and the value you add.
Geoffrey explains the science of storytelling and the emotional connection a good story can create. This prompts Michael to compare his response to the characters in novels. You must care about the character, or the brand.
Geoffrey shares the secret to creating good brand stories, which he describes as the 11th Commandment.
More information about Geoffrey Klein and Michael Millward is available from abeceder.
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Transcript
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:07
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Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:22
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I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysseedah.
Guest Introduction: Geoffrey Klein
00:00:27
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to Today, my guest is Geoffrey Klein, the author of the book, The Content Beast.
00:00:35
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As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to all of the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, Google, iTunes.
00:00:54
Speaker
Zencastr really does make creating content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
00:01:09
Speaker
All the details are in the description. Now that I've told you how wonderful Zencastr is for creating podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:24
Speaker
Very importantly, in this episode of the Independent Minds, as in all the others, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Geoffrey's Career Journey
00:01:34
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Today, my guest Independent Mind, who I met on Matchmaker.fm, is Jeffrey Klein.
00:01:41
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Jeffrey runs Nine Dots Media, a company that helps brands increase engagement and conversions through visual stories. You can discover more about his work in his book, The Content Beast.
00:01:56
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Jeffrey is also an adjunct professor at Temple's University School of Media and Communication. Hello, Jeffrey. Hello, Michael. Lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.
00:02:09
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It's great that you're here. You're joining me today ah from Philadelphia in the United States. And if you would like to visit Philadelphia in the United States, a good place to plan your travel is the Ultimate Travel Club.
00:02:22
Speaker
It is where you will get trade prices on flights and hotels. You'll find a link and membership discount code in the description. Jeffrey, as well as running Nine Dots Media, you've had a really interesting career, one that we could talk about for several hours. But could you just tell me of a few of the career highlights?
00:02:41
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ah Sure. I like to think that I've had a nonlinear career path, which I think is, I always quote John Lennon, which is, life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.
00:02:52
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i I graduated with a a degree in English and sociology, which really prepared me for very little. So I ended up moving to New York City and I worked for a marketing genius named Seth Godin, who has gone on to write a dozen books, Purple Cow, Tribes, Permission Marketing.
00:03:13
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And he really is an incredible thought leader in marketing with a capital M. And I worked with him only for about a year because at the time I was really looking to work in the film industry.
00:03:26
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So what did I do? I went to go work for a law firm and go to law school. ah Yeah, it doesn't, again, i said nonlinear. ah My father and grandfather were judges I wasn't quite ready to make the leap.
00:03:39
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So I went to law school for two years, two of three years. And a lot of people joke I was a law school dropout. But i ended up moving to Los Angeles after my second
From Film to Real Estate and Design
00:03:50
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year. I did finish my law school credits and I have a law degree that I've never used officially.
00:03:55
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And I started working in the film industry and I was really lucky. My first job was at a talent and literary agency working in the story department, which is very appropriate for what I ended up becoming. And I basically spent my days reading bad scripts.
00:04:09
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I then went on to work for the head of production at Paramount Pictures and MGM and worked on major motion pictures and it was really living the dream. But then the real dream happened, which is I met and fell in love with a wonderful woman from Manchester, England. And we ended up moving there where I started ah real estate company because, or property as the Brits would say, um because that's what my father-in-law did. And so i i ran my own company for a while doing you know rental properties,
00:04:40
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But I was not happy doing that. And I eventually got a job working for a design agency in Manchester that did brand and ah brochures and logos and design. And I loved it. And I realized that marketing really tapped into my right and left brain.
00:04:57
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ah So I was, we left Manchester, we moved back to my hometown, Philadelphia. where I went to go work for a brand marketing agency for a few years and then started my own company, Nine Dots.
00:05:09
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And when we started, we're like, what do you need? And so we've done a bit of everything in the marketing sphere from ah branding, brand strategy, logos, websites. But we've really started to concentrate on visual storytelling. We produce video and animation, mostly for advertising and marketing to help businesses tell their story.
00:05:30
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So you've you've almost got your own film studio then now. ha Well, it's I am a producer. So people always think, you know, when I tell them I do video and animation, they assume I'm a videographer, which I'm not. Assume I am an animator, which I am not.
00:05:46
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I'm not good at either of those things particularly. I do a little bit editing, but I very ah smartly have surrounded myself with people who are very good at those particular technical skills. and But I'm a concept guy. I'm an idea guy.
00:06:00
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And so I work often coming up with an idea for what that story should be. Yes. and And I love doing it. And it's it's something that's ah been really great to do. Brilliant.
00:06:12
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Yeah, quite a career. career But yeah you've set up Nine Dots Media.
Nine Dots Media: The Story Behind the Name
00:06:17
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Why is it called Nine Dots Media? Well, I went through about 85 names when i you know, as an idea guy, I had a lot of ideas for what it should be called.
00:06:29
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um And it's very interesting because if you think about the independent mind kind of tagline or or or the the kind of perspective, which is to think outside the box. So the reason and it's called Nine Dots is because it's based on a puzzle.
00:06:43
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We have nine dots and you have to connect all the dots with four straight lines without lifting up your pen. And it's very difficult to do, and again, it's a very visual thing, but it is about connecting those dots.
00:06:55
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And the way that you accomplish the puzzle is by thinking outside the box. And the nine dots puzzle is actually credited with coming up with that idea of thinking outside the box.
00:07:06
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So when I read about it and I saw, and I'm like, it's a great little story for what your brand is about. And it became part of what I believe we try and do, which is we try and connect the dots by thinking outside the box.
00:07:20
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And so it's a nice and name that, and it's easy to spell and say, and there's other reasons why it's a name that I like, but connecting the dots is what we try and do by telling your story and connecting it to your audience. So it was kind of fitting in that regard.
The Power of a Company's Name
00:07:33
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Yes. The name Abusida my company is, we tried to find a name, i couldn't find a name, picked up the dictionary and thought we're going to sit and go page by page, every word until we find a word that sums up what it is that we want to do in HR.
00:07:48
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And, uh, turned a couple of pages and there it was the name Abysida, where it's Latin and some people say Greek. It means to put into logical order and we wanted to put the logic into HR ah so that you remove the emotion.
00:08:00
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So you're making more sensible, less emotional decisions and ending up with fewer problems. But ah love it thank you very much for the opportunity to to sort of like explain the the origins of the Abysida name as well. But oh we all need an origin story.
00:08:15
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This is true. But names mean a lot, don't they, in terms of um a marketing message. It's like the name is the first part of the story that the client sees of your organization.
00:08:27
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Yeah, and and I think, again, it's... it's a shortcut and it's also kind of a placeholder in the sense that it's ah it's a symbol of what you're all about. And I think it's it's incredibly important for people to think hard about the name and what it means. And it should mean something. That's the idea behind it. or Whatever it is.
00:08:47
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If you call yourself Red Pony, well, okay, why Red Pony, not Blue Pony? yeah I think there needs to be some, to be thoughtful about it. And hopefully you pick one that is representative of something. And then You start to build your brand around that name so it reinforces it.
00:09:04
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And then again, with your logo and all the things that you do, yeah it's about always coming back. And i mean I think when you have a very strong brand and your name reflects it, it makes it much easier to market because you're real clear about what it is you do and everything aligns with that. Yes.
00:09:22
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You said some interesting words there, which were like, it's clear what you do. It's easier to market. It's easier to understand. it's The marketing is trying to give people enough information to make sure that they understand what it is that you do and the value that you would give to them if they decided to buy from you, whether that's a product or or a service It's the impact that message has on the individual that you want to have as a client or a customer.
Storytelling in Marketing
00:09:52
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Yeah. And that goes with, you know, my philosophy about story, because there's a difference between telling people information that explains what you do it and telling a story about what you do.
00:10:03
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And what the science shows is that a story has a much more successful way of communicating things in a way that people understand it and that they'll remember it.
00:10:14
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And from a marketing perspective, if you're trying to connect with the audience and they can understand what you do and they remember what you do, I think that's half the battle. So it's part of that because the person can see themselves in the story, you touch a nerve or you create an impression that they have been in the same situation, that it's a way, the fact is a fact, but the, uh, the story creates an emotional connection.
00:10:41
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Yeah, and and there's actually the scientific basis for it, which I'll share. And it's funny because you know I just was doing a presentation where I was saying, you know there's ah there's and i'm not unfortunately I don't off credit for this, but was facts tell, stories sell.
00:10:58
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and And the reason behind it is because of how our brains work. So basically when you tell people information, facts, figures, data, two parts of their brains activate, the vernix area and the barackage area.
00:11:12
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And those two parts of the brain are incredibly important. They're how we create meaning from words and so we can understand what people are saying. But what the research showed is that when you actually tell a story, yes, the Brock and Vernix area activate, but so does every other part of the brain that the listener would use if they were experiencing the story themselves.
00:11:34
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And that's how you build that emotional connection. So i always tell people, if I were to tell you a story about me kicking a ball, your motor cortex would activate. So it's this vicarious experiencing of the story that ends up connecting us and kind of having it hardwired into how we think about things.
00:11:52
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And so, yeah, it's it's very powerful. I mean, they say something, stories are 22 times more likely you know to be remembered then then information on its own. so it's So it's a lot of those things. It's both physiological and emotional in terms of how we make meaning of the world.
00:12:09
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I've just had one of those moments. I can see exactly what you mean, because if somebody tells a story and they are animating the story by using movement words, verbs, and and my language rather than their language, it is easier for me to place myself in that story for good or for bad, explain experiences of all sorts of different types.
00:12:35
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but I totally get what you're saying. If I, as the reader or the listener to the story can vicariously position myself in that story, it is going to have a stronger impact on me than I can't.
00:12:52
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It's like when you're reading a book and I read books and write reviews of books and and in a novel, the thing that I want to do is to care about the characters,
00:13:05
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And part of that is that it's they become almost like I could be that character. Right. I don't want anything wrong to happen to that. Don't want anything bad to happen to that character.
00:13:16
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Yeah. And that caring piece is when you make that emotional connection. And there's a distinction that I think a lot of businesses mistake. mistake I have to give credit to James Ravallada, who is a fellow speaker, because I've referenced this a lot and I so wish I had come up with it. But I think the second best thing to you know coming up with something is sharing something valuable from somebody else.
00:13:38
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But he makes the distinction between credibility and relatability. And I think when businesses use those facts and figures and data points, they're trying to prove something, how good they are at something or how valuable they are.
00:13:53
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And the reality is that people, yes, you have to have credibility from a threshold perspective. But once you get beyond that, To really connect with people, you need to be relatable.
00:14:03
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So therefore, that's why a story is so powerful because it is relatable. You can see yourself in the story. And so it's all about understanding that's what people are looking for when they're looking to connect to our brand.
00:14:16
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Not the actual you know facts and figures, but the emotional reason, oh, I can see how this can help me. I can see myself in that situation. I can see how this could help me in that situation.
00:14:27
Speaker
And so it's relating to the in the audience that is so critical in terms of being effective in your communication. Yeah, the relationship. You're creating content which helps the intended audience, and I say intended audience rather than the audience, to build a connection with you which helps them build a relationship with you.
00:14:51
Speaker
And you do that by showing them how they how the story relates to them, helps them build a relationship with you as ah as a potential supplier.
00:15:02
Speaker
it's um yeah i mean I've always been ah writer of content and it's helped too my business grow, been introduced to all sorts of large organizations and successfully built relationships with them and and instead of me contacting them they found me as a result of contact that I'd created in some way and getting all of the search engine terms and the SEO and and everything right is a big important part of making sure that your content is in front of the right people but it's still got to be interesting content it's still got to be something that helps to build that connection with that individual so it's got to be written in the in the style that will relate to the the the intended audience as well as tell the story i suppose
00:15:57
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Yeah. And you, but you know, we've mentioned kind of audience and customer a few times. And I think to me, that's the number one biggest thing that you need to focus on. And so in my book, I came up with something called the 11th commandment.
00:16:09
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Know thy audience.
Understanding Your Audience
00:16:11
Speaker
And I think the mistake that people make is that they're so busy trying to prove themselves by saying we've been around for X amount of years and we have the best this and that, and nobody cares.
00:16:23
Speaker
Nobody cares about what they can do. they all People only care about what you can do for them. And so having the audience in mind from the beginning and recognizing who is your audience, what do they care about, learning about them.
00:16:38
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Because once you understand your audience, then you can craft messaging and content that's going to be that's going to resonate with them. And that's the whole idea. So I think a lot of people are trying too hard when the energy and the effort really be in to understanding who is the person you're trying to connect So it's, it's almost like drawing or finding a photograph of the type of person who's likely to be your customer, sticking it on your notice board, creating a backstory for them of the the situation that will make them reach out to you or look for something that will lead them to your content.
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah, and and what you're describing, there's a formal term and and exercise called and creating, whether it's a buyer a customer avatar or a buyer persona. marketers Many marketers do that. They basically create a blueprint, a snapshot, a profile of who their ideal client or customer is.
00:17:42
Speaker
They give them a fake name in often cases. They give them an age and demographics and psychographics, and they fill in things as they learn about them. What are their typical objections? What are their goals? What are their challenges?
00:17:54
Speaker
And so you feel, yeah, having that to hand when you're getting ready to market can be very powerful because you know them. One of the challenges that, especially for smaller businesses, is trying to create a message you think is going to work.
00:18:09
Speaker
And when someone says, i ask clients, you know, who's your customer? And they say, everybody. I said, well, good luck marketing to everybody. and both from us and and and And the idea is that you know if you go too wide, too broad with your message, it's not going to resonate to anybody.
00:18:26
Speaker
Now, you can't go too too small because you may not have enough people. But you need to find enough. yeah Again, it's about finding that sweet spot of understanding who are the people who are going to care about what or have a problem that you can help with.
00:18:41
Speaker
And then reverse engineering your messaging so that if you talk about their problem, they're like, oh, wait a minute, that's me. And then they're you that's the hook. Then you engage them and then you can share with them. And by the way, we have this wonderful product or wonderful service that can help you with your channel.
00:18:56
Speaker
It is. as With my ah HR professional hat on, I am thinking it's exactly the same when I'm running a recruitment exercise.
Tailoring Messages in Recruitment
00:19:06
Speaker
I can tell the applications, the CVs, the resumes, the standard one that is sent off to every application.
00:19:15
Speaker
You can tell it it stands out a mile. You have to search through them to find the relevant, interesting piece of information. But the CVs, applications that arrive, that have been written specifically for the role that I am trying to fill, jump out of the pile.
00:19:34
Speaker
Yeah. And that, yeah, right. It's like everything that I need is there. They understand what I am looking for. They've read the advertisement. They've put together something that demonstrates that they can do what I need them to do.
00:19:46
Speaker
And they've got the, or everything is just there. And it's like, yeah, I found someone that I can invite in for an interview. One of the goals I think of marketing and branding in general is to differentiate yourself because if you don't, then it's like, well, they're all the same.
00:20:02
Speaker
You know, you look at a bank, they all do the same thing. And so what's going to make your bank stand out? And it's going to be well, we serve a certain kind of individual. And so understand that customer. And if you are that kind of individual and we are doing everything in our service providing and our products that match what you need,
00:20:20
Speaker
you're a good fit. And I think that's one of the challenges is businesses need to recognize not everyone is a good fit for them. And we're holding on to, oh, wait, I don't want to lose that sale.
00:20:31
Speaker
But if they're not the right customer, they're going to it's going very short lived. Whereas if you find a customer that really does fit with what you're trying to accomplish and how you're trying to help, they become a loyal, long client, a customer.
00:20:45
Speaker
yeah And that's the magic of, I think businesses succeeding and sustaining themselves is finding those customers who really do fit what it is you're trying to do, both from, you know, from a, I think,
00:20:57
Speaker
your philosophical reasons, your value systems, and specifically what it is you're trying to sell. Because I'm a big fan of Simon Sinek, who wrote the book, Start With Why.
00:21:10
Speaker
And I think the thing is that people are trying to connect to why you do something, not just what you do. And so if you look at, well, why are you buying this product over that product? When the products may be relatively similar.
00:21:23
Speaker
and you have to go beyond that and look at well what's the culture of the company and what do they both believe in and that's what people align with and so you again when you have a very strong brand knowing who you are why you do what you do what you stand for you then will understand who you can serve and then once you understand that you can get to know them even better and then that's when you can even enhance and elevate your marketing message yes i'm listening to you and thinking like yes that's why i don't have that supplier because they're they didn't present themselves in a way that fitted with the way in which i want to run my business and the way that i want to run it the values that i want to have yeah it's really important really important to have that match
00:22:10
Speaker
and And it's funny, with within the HR perspective, you know so I teach students at the university level, and I talk to them about, you know obviously when you leave here, you're gonna go have a career and and you know look for a job, everyone wants to get a job.
Career Advice for Students
00:22:24
Speaker
And I said to them, you know I can encourage them, it's not just about the company interviewing you. You need to interview the company to make sure it's a good fit for you. yes It can't be that, you know it's a two way street and I think,
00:22:39
Speaker
when people are in a position where they feel like they have to get a job, but it's not about getting a job, it's getting the right job. yes Because if you take a job that isn't a right fit, it's not going to be good for anybody.
00:22:49
Speaker
It ah can be a miserable experience. going to like a bad brand message. A miserable experience for everyone. But I think one of the things that is important is that if you if you find a supplier, find a customer, find an employer that has values that are similar to yours, life becomes so much easier.
00:23:07
Speaker
And what you're talking about is matching the story or getting a story that demonstrates the type of organization that you are and linking that in with the services, the products that you can deliver to ah customer that matches the type of organization that you
Narrowcasting in Storytelling
00:23:30
Speaker
are. So you're bringing...
00:23:32
Speaker
two people or two organizations together and in a way that everything I'm playing with my thing, entwining my fingers here. That means everything comes together smoothly. You're going to end up with fewer problems.
00:23:46
Speaker
You'll have a stronger relationship and better understanding. And I'm thinking as well from what you're saying that The great temptation, as you said a couple of minutes ago, is like to send out marketing messages to everyone.
00:23:59
Speaker
And you can't market to every everyone with the same message because people need to hear different things. And the mere fact that using the internet or any type of media, I can communicate with not just millions but billions of people, that is broadcasting.
00:24:19
Speaker
The story that you create around you, your organization, the history, the present, the future of that organization what it can do needs to be much more narrow casting, much more like the most successful radio presenters. When you say, well, your audience 20 million people and they go, well, I'm just talking to one person.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yes. That's what makes their show a success. is like They build that relationship. They create maybe millions of people listening, but you are sending out a message that each individual audience member believes is unique to them because you understand your audience.
00:25:03
Speaker
Know thy audience. It all comes back to the 11th Commandment. and Yes, the 11th commandment, which is mentioned in your book and explained in much more detail in your book, The Content Beast.
Conclusion and Audience Engagement
00:25:14
Speaker
um As a content creator for Abbasida, I think content creation is a beast. it and needs to be fed regularly and enthusiastically. But I have to say thank you very much, Jeffrey, for helping me feed the Abbasida independent minds content beast today. It's been very interesting. I've learned a lot. Thank you.
00:25:34
Speaker
Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Geoffrey Klein, from Nine Dots Media, who is also the author of the book, The Content Beast.
00:25:53
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us in the description, but also abbasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Geoffrey.
00:26:07
Speaker
If you are a podcaster like me looking for interesting guests, or if like Geoffrey, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:26:20
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. Somehow I get the feeling that that description is going to be well worth reading. But if you have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:26:37
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
00:26:49
Speaker
Thank you and goodbye.