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Grieving and Working – a conversation with Grief Educator Suzanne Jabour
0 Playsin 9 hours
Death is an accepted fact of life, but bereavement and grief is still not widely understood, and that creates problems for bereaved people and costs for their employers.
Suzanne Jabour is a grief educator, she is on a mission to change how we understand grief and how employers respond to and support employees who are grieving.
When her son died Suzanne realised that the only way she would be able to survive the grief, would be by getting curious. Suzanne knew that she needed to understand what was happening to her and working out for herself how to work her way through that grief.
In this episode of The Independent Minds Suzanne and host Michael Millward discuss the difficulties employers face when an employee faces a bereavement.
Everyone experiences grief differently, but one common affect is a drop in productivity.
Suzanne explains how employers can start the discussion about grief with their employees, so that employees know before they experience a bereavement that their employer understands their experience and that they will be supported.
You will leave this episode inspired to review your employee bereavement policy.
More information about Suzanne Jabour and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Independent Minds' Series
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencastr Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Introducing Suzanne Jabor, Grief Management Specialist
00:00:22
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida. Today, my guest is Suzanne Jabor, who is a specialist in grief management.
00:00:34
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms.
00:00:49
Speaker
Zencastr really does make making content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysseedah.
00:01:04
Speaker
Now that I've told you how wonderful Zencast is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:16
Speaker
Very importantly, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Suzanne's Personal Grief Journey
00:01:22
Speaker
Today, my guest independent mind is Suzanne Jabor, who is a specialist in grief management.
00:01:31
Speaker
Suzanne is based in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. It is somewhere that I have visited. If I go again, i will be sure to make all of my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club, because that is where I can access trade prices on flights and hotels and all sorts of other travel essentials.
00:01:51
Speaker
There is a link and a membership discount code in the description. Now, hello, Suzanne. How are you today? Hello, Michael. I'm well. Thank you so much for having me. It's great.
00:02:02
Speaker
Could we please start by you telling us a little bit about you and then we'll get into your work Absolutely. i am a grief educator and I come to this work really off of a string of losses. you know The more I look at it and the more that I study grief and learn about it and and hunt for it in my own life, you know it's so interesting to see how things work.
00:02:23
Speaker
kind of all bring us to where
Understanding Grief's Impact and Process
00:02:24
Speaker
we are. And I really began that exploration and that need to understand grief better after my most recent loss, which was my son, Ben.
00:02:34
Speaker
He died in September of 2020 at the age of 22. That loss, unlike, you know last year, it was 25 years since my dad died and 10 since my mom had died. So this was not my first significant loss in my life.
00:02:50
Speaker
But there was something about it being a child, it being sudden, and it just made me understand almost instantly, really, that I didn't know enough about grief myself to be able to even do it in a way that felt healthy.
00:03:06
Speaker
It's such a gap that we all have in our understanding and our knowledge that it really has become my mission to fill because I know for me as a griever, i didn't understand the symptoms that should be expected. i didn't understand the timeline. I didn't really understand much except that I knew that what I was living in felt like a post-apocalyptic nightmare.
00:03:28
Speaker
It just felt like my entire world had fallen apart. I could see this bomb blasted vista around me. i can sort of chuckle about it now because I just remember it feeling so disorienting and so horrifying. Like it really, those early days are just sheer horror and shock and dismay and disorientation.
Perspectives on Loss and Mortality
00:03:49
Speaker
you're in those early days and it sounds like I'm making light of the journey, I'm really not. I really understood immediately that I had to embrace the whole thing, that denying any of it, trying to compartmentalize and be my A-type personality, problem solver, go-getter, none of that was going to work. And I really had to reinvent myself, you know my approach to the world, how I interacted with people.
00:04:14
Speaker
and i Still, I was thinking about it the other day and thinking, oh yeah, but that was before. They're definitely 100% this time is a before and after in my life. Things from the before haven't necessarily crossed over into the after. Yes.
00:04:26
Speaker
And I really knew that I just needed to have a lot of curiosity. And that's really what has led me down this path of now really advocating for and educating people about how we can better support each other, particularly in the workplace where we're doing some harm that we don't intend to.
00:04:41
Speaker
Yes. It's interesting when you talk about losing a parent, which fortunately I haven't done yet, but I've heard people say that when you lose a parent, you lose your past. And those people who have been bereaved of a child have said, when you lose a child, you're bereaved of a child.
00:04:58
Speaker
In some ways, you've lost your future.
Phases and Misunderstandings of Grief
00:05:02
Speaker
And when you're bereaved of someone who is of your generation, you almost go into a sense of like a realization of your own mortality as well.
00:05:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And there's something about that out of order loss. And it is that sense of like that future that you were supposed to have and that future they were supposed to have beyond you that I think makes it a different experience. For me, it did for sure. And that seems to be very normal. you know If we want to talk about making this all feel more normal...
00:05:32
Speaker
you know, that sense that that future is gone is absolutely normal when it comes to the death of a child, for sure. Yes. That's a key word almost in terms of bereavement. Normal. It is normal that people die and it is normal to feel grief and go through ah grief process, a bereavement process.
00:05:52
Speaker
Having had conversations on this subject with other people, One of the things that I have come to realize is that that is not something that has an end point.
00:06:03
Speaker
The grief, the bereavement changes, but it doesn't actually end because that person was part of your life and they're never not to be part of your life.
00:06:15
Speaker
Yeah,
Expressions of Love through Grief
00:06:16
Speaker
that's so true. And I think it's something that we really don't understand as well as we need to. you know There's phases to grief, right? There's that very acute beginning where, as I said, it's just disorientation and confusion and you know all our lack of ability to concentrate is a big one that shows up at work and all of those other symptoms that happen to us. And and over time, you're right, you know we move from there kind of into this early phase where you know We're still activated regularly, but not as often. The waves are slightly further apart. Some of them are more predictable. you know There's so many great water analogies when it comes to grief. I'm not sure why.
00:06:54
Speaker
But that for me is, you know, the place where I can make the most sense of it, I suppose. And then, yes, then we get to mature grief where really we're not trying to move on, you know, and this is where when I talk to people about what you can say, you know, so many of those old cliches and platitudes that we all sense no longer serve, you know, have a couple of subtexts. And one of them, 100 percent, is about the sense of moving on and getting over it and being through it or, you know, whatever it is.
00:07:19
Speaker
And it's such a misunderstanding of how grief really works, because, When we understand that grief is love, our love for that person is never going to
Technology's Role in Grief Support
00:07:28
Speaker
end. yeah So why would our grief for them?
00:07:31
Speaker
It changes over time. We build up around it. And you know I love the pictures. There's a few you know images people have put together where the grief ball stays the same size, but our ability to hold it gets better. We get bigger around it, our ability to carry it with us.
00:07:47
Speaker
We become more skillful, right? We become more able than we are at the beginning. But it never does go away. And it's so interesting. Often we can't predict what will activate it either.
00:07:58
Speaker
And as we were saying before we started to record, sometimes it's a date. you know For sure for me, one of my brilliant friends, we were talking about you know business strategy and timing. and And she said, well, but you just need to understand September is always going to be September.
00:08:12
Speaker
Yes. And I thought that was so brilliant of her to say. Like for me, September is always going to be hard. It's the month that Ben died. It's the month my dad died. It's my daughter's birthday. Like it's a very complicated month.
00:08:24
Speaker
And September is always going to be September. 25 years after Ben's died, September will still be September. It will still be hard. And when we understand that, then we can put things in place to mitigate that. We can reach out for extra support.
00:08:39
Speaker
People who are keeping track who love us can offer extra support.
Economic Impact of Grief and Employer Roles
00:08:43
Speaker
Our employers can step in. you know There's so many ways that when we understand grief better, we can see how easy it is and really low cost, low risk to step up and support people. Because it really is as simple as acknowledging it, normalizing it, saying, oh, like my friend did. Well, September always going to be September. like Why would you plan to launch and of anything in September? That would be ridiculous.
00:09:04
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, like it actually would. Why would I do that to myself? Right. But we forget sometimes that it is forever. And if we know that, then we can just plan accordingly. Like, yeah, I would never launch a product in September.
00:09:19
Speaker
Why would I do that to myself? Yes. it Every time i hear any connection made between grief and the love of someone, I'm taken back to 2001 and the service held after the attack on the Twin Towers and in New York, where Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom and Canada sent a message to the people of New York. And in that, the key phrase I remember is that grief is the price we pay for love.
00:09:48
Speaker
o That is, um you are paying back. I now have to get to the point where I can live with the fact that someone else is not there. And in my interpretation, the level of grief in many ways reflects the value that that person provided.
00:10:05
Speaker
to you as an individual, you know, the love that you both felt for one another, the value that they offered to you as part of your family network, your friendship network, your work network.
Leadership Compassion for Grieving Employees
00:10:17
Speaker
People leave us, but they they leave behind lots of value as well. When we talk about value, one of the things that you sent me was that, and this is an amazing statistic, really, the cost of grief to the United States of America economy 2023 is estimated to have been billion. dollars That is a huge amount of money. One of the things I'm very interested in is what can an employer do to try and manage grief and bereavement when it happens to one of their employees? What are the things that you would suggest an employer does?
00:11:00
Speaker
I think the first piece is that people really need to, you know, leaders especially, there's two things that they they'd really need to step into before they can even get to the policies and the practical supports, people really need to understand grief better.
00:11:15
Speaker
We really need to break this silence that we're all in where we don't share our experience. We don't share our knowledge. Because as humans, you know we learn from each other. We learn from sharing stories. We learn from sharing experiences.
00:11:29
Speaker
So in this area where we have silence, none of us are learning. So that's, for me, part of why I share my story and my experience so much and the experience of grievers that I've spoken with and worked with.
From Pity to Workplace Empathy
00:11:42
Speaker
Because if we understand that what's happening to us is normal and expected, it's way less scary, first of all, because it can be very scary. And it's easier for people to step in and see where they might be able to help. So that understanding is critical. We have to fill that knowledge gap that we all have as a collective.
00:12:02
Speaker
And the other thing that's equally critical, and maybe more so, in fact, is leaders really need to step into compassion. And it's really time for us to use that and understand that you know Naming emotions is healthy. Acknowledging them is good for us.
00:12:19
Speaker
When leaders do that, when leaders step up and are more vulnerable and honest about what's really happening for them, we know that that shifts the culture of an organization. And we know that that creates a space where employees and team members can be more honest about what's happening for them.
00:12:37
Speaker
And it's an area that's so fascinating to me because it can't come from the bottom up. right? No one is going to be more vulnerable and honest than the leadership is being because it's simply not safe.
00:12:49
Speaker
And we're focusing so much more now in workplaces around mental health and psychological safety. And to me, that's a big piece of
Practical Workplace Support for Grieving Employees
00:12:56
Speaker
it. And what's interesting about that when it comes to grief is that it really shifts the approach and the conversation.
00:13:04
Speaker
you know When we move from sympathy, which is where we feel pity for someone, most of us have kind of moved beyond that. We understand now that empathy is more helpful, more healthy. We want to imagine ourselves in that person's shoes, right? We may have felt a similar emotion before around something else. We understand how that emotion feels.
00:13:22
Speaker
What we want to step into now is compassion, which to me is empathy in action. So it becomes, you know, how can I imagine what this person is feeling? How can I connect with that emotion?
00:13:33
Speaker
And then how can I help carry that burden? Because we know burdens are much more easily carried when they're shared. And that's not to say that you can take on someone's grief. You can't. It's theirs. It's personal.
00:13:44
Speaker
But you can offer support. You can offer really practical tools when you understand things like brain fog, for example, which really impacts people at work. That's probably the one that shows up the most.
00:13:57
Speaker
because it impacts our ability to concentrate. It impacts our ability to do you know multi-step functions. you know If you have to do A to get to B to get to C to get to your goal, I would get to be and be looking around going, oh, jeesh, there's something more I'm supposed to be doing here and I just don't remember what it is.
00:14:16
Speaker
Because your brain is so busy yes doing all kinds of reprogramming. It's really fascinating what our brain is actually doing and I won't nerd out on it because you know that's other people's expertise.
00:14:27
Speaker
But suffice it to say our brain is really busy doing things other than helping us concentrate at work. And we could use support there. And if we think about how technology allows us to have shared documents and shared calendars and set alerts for people and invite people to events and have them show up in their calendars for them, you know, there's so many things we can do with technology that we already have. So there's no cost. It's a matter of being thoughtful and being communicative. You know, that open communication with the person who's experienced a loss is critical because every person does it differently and every person grieves differently for each loss. So it's not even that there's, you know, 8 billion plus ways to grieve. There's an exponentially more than that way because
Training Managers on Grief Support
00:15:12
Speaker
I grieved differently for my dad than I did for my mom than I do for my son.
00:15:17
Speaker
and the supports that i needed for each of those were different my the space i was out in my life was different my work was different so it really is about that open communication and having a set of things you could offer right i describe it best as sort of a menu it's like here's all the things we could possibly do which of these would serve you this week which would serve you today which would serve you in this moment you know depending on how able they are to even conceptualize what a week is because our relationship with time gets really disrupted too, which is important for us to understand as employers.
00:15:49
Speaker
And then have a follow-up plan. Great. Let's try that for this week. Let's reconnect again on Monday and see what you need next week. It's that open communication, the open understanding that they need support. That's coming from the employer instead of the employee feeling like they have to go advocate for themselves because they're not sure how to get through the day.
00:16:07
Speaker
That's so clearly, that's an entirely different dynamic. And it really takes the pressure off of someone who is doing everything they can to hold it together in the moment. to also have to be trying to think of what would be helpful to me, where do I think I might struggle?
00:16:24
Speaker
you know If someone else is looking at that with you, that's an entirely different conversation. An entirely different conversation and and a very difficult conversation. It sounds as if what we need to do is add some element of how to do this into the management training that we provide for so that the average manager will have gone through some form of grief they'll have had a bereavement but unless you actually are talking to someone in terms of how to help someone else and giving them the skills it all sounds great and fantastic but the the conversation the understanding of grief better
00:17:05
Speaker
People just aren't comfortable talking about grief, are they? They aren't comfortable talking about people who have died, about bereavement.
Continuous Support Beyond Bereavement
00:17:14
Speaker
It is a massive leap for organisations to say, we are going to be more proactive, more positive, more supportive.
00:17:27
Speaker
with employees who have gone through a bereavement process. And I'm feeling, after listening to you, i'm feeling a little bit guilty about saying employees who have gone through a bereavement process, because that's the past tense.
00:17:44
Speaker
And I'm understanding that bereavement isn't a past tense. Once you are bereaved of someone who you loved who has died, you will always bereaved.
00:17:57
Speaker
managing that bereavement process. It changes, but you will always be dealing with that. Yes, absolutely. And so if that's terrifying employers that are listening to us because they're thinking they have to now support someone forever,
00:18:11
Speaker
You do want to keep track of those important dates. It would be wonderful if every organization had a grief calendar where when an employee loses a loved one, when someone dies, that you just put it on the calendar. So the week before, you know before the anniversary, you can acknowledge that they may be having a hard time.
00:18:28
Speaker
Often that acknowledgement is enough. yes The UK study showed that the first six months productivity was down to about 70%. And by the first year mark, it went back up to 90, which I figure is pretty much where most of us are operating at any given time. If you get to 90, you're doing pretty well. So we're really talking about supporting someone for that first six months.
00:18:48
Speaker
And really, the support they're going to need the most is that first two or three months. Because most people want to reintegrate into their workplaces as smoothly and seamlessly and quickly as possible.
Productivity Loss and Employee Support
00:19:01
Speaker
So we're not talking about, you know, as much as grief lasts forever. We're not talking about needing to provide support forever. We're talking about really in that acute first few months. The interesting thing about the empathy.com study was that they found that the support that people required when they, the struggling period aligned with that concept of the acute grief phase, which is about that first nine months or so.
00:19:24
Speaker
So those two studies really backed each other up in an interesting way and really help us to see that if we understand that acute phase and how it might operate for someone, though the timeline is going to be different, the ebb and flow is going to be different.
00:19:36
Speaker
We know people need support the first few months. We can lessen that off because we're having open communication about this awkward topic. And I get it. It's awkward because we're not good at it.
00:19:48
Speaker
We need to build new skills. And if we can start there, right, if we can all just acknowledge that really when it comes to grief, right, about all things. you know We've particularly talked about bereavement because that's where people need the most support in the workplace, but it happens for all kinds of things, right? It can happen because something's happening in the community.
00:20:07
Speaker
We're also connected globally now. We're experiencing grief for things happening on the other side of the world from us. We're seeing it on the news. We're hearing it on our way into the office. There's grief that's happening in the workplace, right? If you're restructuring, if you've had a product launch fail, if your quarterly earnings are down, right? There's all kinds of things that happen at work that bring up this grief as well.
00:20:30
Speaker
Then we could be having all kinds of interesting conversations and we can practice. Brilliant place to practice is those griefs that are happening in the workplace. Yes. What if leaders started to acknowledge it there as a way to open this conversation? Yes.
00:20:44
Speaker
And if we all understand that we're not very good at it and we're not very good at it altogether, It takes the onus off of any individual or any single workplace because it's just a mirror of the gap that we all have as a collective in our society.
00:20:58
Speaker
We don't talk about it. We don't understand it. We don't acknowledge it very well. We feel a lot of fear, right? A lot of worry. I don't want to make it worse. I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to do the wrong thing. And that holds us back from being able to have a conversation that would allow us to understand better.
00:21:16
Speaker
what's happening for that individual, what happens generally. And when we understand it, we can step forward in a different way. It's the fear and the lack of understanding, the lack of knowledge and skills that holds us back. Yes. So if we can spend an hour together, you know, having a grief 101 session as a lunch and learn so people understand the timeline, they understand the symptoms, they understand how that might show up at work, then people are looking at it and thinking, wow, this is a real thing.
00:21:41
Speaker
You know, even though I've maybe never experienced it to the degree where I needed support, Or I look back now and think, oh my gosh, I absolutely needed support. And if only I'd been able to understand it and even explain it myself, my own experience, then we can all step up with creativity, with solutions.
Open Communication on Grief in Organizations
00:21:59
Speaker
You know, when I when i talk to anyone, any of the stakeholders from the top of the C-suite to the frontline workers, they have brilliant ideas of what they can do. When we talk about people's inability to really understand time, our connection with time gets all muddled.
00:22:13
Speaker
It seems so obvious that you could buddy up with someone, for example, and be their meeting reminder person, or you could set it in your shared teams environment or whichever environment you're using. You can put reminders.
00:22:25
Speaker
It's so easy when you understand what someone might be experiencing. to have creative solutions and creative suggestions, which then they, the griever gets to decide if they want any of this because some won't. And that's the other thing that's so important for people to understand.
00:22:41
Speaker
Some people won't want support at all. They'll want to just buckle down and try and do it. And that's okay. As long as we understand that their capacities will be impacted, right? Yes. Their ability to do their job as they did before will be impacted.
00:22:55
Speaker
And that's okay if we understand it, we can offer grace, we can help. And it's so important to just open up those conversations and start to build the skills because you're exactly right.
00:23:07
Speaker
This is an area where we need training, where we need skill building. And someone like me in that in that early acute phase where I'm a grieving mom grieving out loud, because for me, that was my method that was going to allow me to survive this loss.
00:23:20
Speaker
I'm not a very good first assignment. So if you can start with, wow, this product that we launched didn't go the way that we wanted. And I have a whole lot of feelings about that. I'm feeling angry. I'm feeling sad. I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feeling hopeful that we can pivot.
00:23:35
Speaker
I'm feeling appreciative of you all in your heart, you know, your great efforts. That's a whole different recap meeting than when you come in and start with, well, this just went all wrong and how do we fix it?
00:23:47
Speaker
You're opening up new spaces. You're opening up new conversations. that allow people to then bring a different level of their whole selves to work. Because ultimately we know that's what most employees want. We want a space where we're seen, heard and valued, where we can be our whole selves at work.
Addressing Grief in Workplaces
00:24:03
Speaker
And this is a way to start to have those conversations. In an area where, as you said earlier, it's $125 billion dollars cost in the US annually. That's a lot of money. Anything else that was costing us that kind of money, we'd be trying to do something about it.
00:24:16
Speaker
But we're all so entangled in fear and worry and lack of knowledge that this gap is in the workplace that's the same as the gap we have in our society. The gap in our society, yes. And we can fix it.
00:24:27
Speaker
We can fix it. Yeah, we can fix it. I'm feeling like quite inspired now that we can fix it. But there is the embarrassment of talking about something which actually means that If I acknowledge the fact that you've gone through a bereavement, then I'm also having to accept for myself that, yeah, everyone dies sometimes. So that means I'm going to die sometime.
00:24:49
Speaker
But your way of starting those conversations is actually to look at things which we're unhappy about. but are inanimate in many ways.
00:24:59
Speaker
The deal that we didn't win, the project that hasn't worked properly. It's almost like, let's talk about the things that we don't like. Let's talk about the things that haven't worked. Let's get ourselves used to talking about the bad things as well as the good things.
00:25:14
Speaker
And then it becomes a lot easier to talk about something that is very personal, very emotional, Some of that 125 billion US dollars is the cost of staff absence. It is the cost of people leaving organizations, the resignations, the ill health terminations.
00:25:34
Speaker
It all comes under that 125 billion US dollars, that whole impact. And yeah,
Reflections on Grief Dialogues
00:25:42
Speaker
I get it. If you are a manager who's never had to deal with an employee who's going through a bereavement, it is going to be daunting.
00:25:51
Speaker
But if you have got people used to talking about unpleasant experiences, unpleasant events by going through, yeah we didn't win that deal, we missed that target, we've got this unhappy customer, then you you are better equipped to deal with those more emotional things that happen to people as well.
00:26:13
Speaker
So really, Suzanne, very, very interesting. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. You're welcome. like The purpose of an independent mind is to make people think, and you have made me think. Yay!
00:26:27
Speaker
That's my goal, right? that is That is great. But it is like, yeah, let's think about all the things that are bad. Let's talk about those, which then equips us with the skills. If we've learned, know, it's very easy to talk about the good days, but we also need to talk about the bad days.
00:26:46
Speaker
And it is a different skill set. It is a different... to be able to do it without blaming people as well. It happens. Because it has to be no shame, no blame. It has to be. yes yeah There's no shame, no blame for the person who doesn't know how to talk about it. yeah And there's no shame, no blame for the person who's experiencing big emotions.
00:27:05
Speaker
That's normal. right That's our our full circle back to you know grief is the normal healthy response to losses of all kinds yes it's normal it's healthy we need to understand it better because when we know better we can do better right precisely brilliant thank you very much for joining me in the early hours of the west coast of canada i really enjoyed it and i've learned a lot thank you very much suzanne you're so welcome thank you again for having me it's My pleasure. Thank you.
00:27:33
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Suzanne Jabor, who is a grief educator based in Vancouver, Canada.
00:27:46
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description, together with a link to Suzanne's website as well. If you've liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:05
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
00:28:17
Speaker
All that remains for me to say is thank you, Suzanne, And until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you to you for listening and goodbye.