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From Electrification to Cloudification – a conversation with the author Jamie Dobson
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Visionaries, Rebels and Machines, the story of humanity's extraordinary journey from electrification to cloudification.
Jamie Dobson is a member of the founding team of Container Solutions, where he helps all sorts of organisations move to cloud-native ways of working.
He is also the author of Visionaries, Rebels and Machines, the story of humanity's extraordinary journey from electrification to cloudification, and co-author of The Cloud Native Attitude.
In this episode of The Independent Minds Jamie and host Michael Millward discuss From Visionaries, Rebels and Machines, and explore with how rapidly the world has changed since the discovery of how to generate and distribute electricity.
Jamie explains what cloud computing is and how global politics can impact decisions about how organisations and individuals utilise it.
He explains how to address the challenges organisations face in making effective use of cloud computing.
This episode will give you confidence to make better decisions about how you use cloud computing most effectively.
More information about Jamie Dobson and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
Audience Offers – listings include links that may create a small commission for The Independent Minds
Buy Visionaries, Rebels and Machines on Amazon
Buy The Cloud Native Attitude on Amazon
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If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Independent Minds' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencastr Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abyssaida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysseedah.
Exploring Cloud-Native Concepts with Jamie Dobson
00:00:27
Speaker
In this episode of The Independent Minds, Jamie Dobson and I will be discussing what it means to be a cloud native.
00:00:35
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr because Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production and distribution process so easy.
00:00:52
Speaker
Regardless of whether you are an experienced podcaster or just starting out, I recommend that you use the link in the description to visit Zencaster.com and take advantage of the built-in discount.
00:01:04
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:16
Speaker
And also probably good enough to share with your friends, family and work colleagues as well. As with every episode of the Independent Minds, we will not be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Jamie's Journey to Cloud-Native Expertise
00:01:30
Speaker
Today's Independent Mind is Jamie Dobson. He is a member of the founding team of Container Solutions. He has been helping all sorts of organizations move to cloud-native ways of working for over a decade.
00:01:46
Speaker
Jamie is also the co-author of The Cloud Native Attitude and recently published Visionaries, Rebels and Machines, the story of humanity's extraordinary journey from electrification to cloudification.
00:02:00
Speaker
Jamie is based in London, but he founded his company Container Solutions in Amsterdam. So with a degree from Edinburgh University, he is quite the nomad. I've been to all three of those cities, and when I go again, I will use my membership of the Ultimate Travel Club to access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays, and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
00:02:22
Speaker
In the spirit of sharing, I've added a link with a built-in discount to the description so that you can become a member of the Ultimate Travel Club and also travel at trade prices. Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds and say, Hello, Jamie.
00:02:40
Speaker
Hello, Michael. Thanks for having me I am very much looking forward to having this conversation with you because you are not only the guest on my podcast, you are also a podcaster yourself. And you've not just got a podcast, but you've got a podcast and a book with the same name. Podcast and a book with the same name. I've got more experience with writing than I do podcasting, but I've definitely tried to put something new together with Visionaries, Rebels and Machines, the podcast.
00:03:06
Speaker
It's not a talking in heads podcast. It's an old fashioned, it's almost like a radio broadcast. So let's wait to see if anybody listens and what feedback I get from them. We will put a link in the description to Visionaries, Rebels and Machines. And yeah, it's it's a good podcast.
00:03:21
Speaker
Please, could we start this particular podcast, The Independent Minds, with you giving us a little bit of a summary of how you ended up in the role that you are. And that's so like from Hull to Edinburgh, Amsterdam to London.
00:03:34
Speaker
but How did it all come together? The way you describe it, Michael, is way more exciting than what actually happened in real life. Yes, it's true. I'm from Hull. I'm from the city of Hull. And i i was a computer programmer.
00:03:45
Speaker
And like all computer programmers, I like to program machines because I'd prefer not to speak or deal with people. But unfortunately, of course, once you get to the world of work, your ability to deal with other human beings actually gives you a great advantage as ah somebody who works with technologies.
00:04:02
Speaker
And it turns out that I was a pretty social person when I put my mind to it. And one thing led to another. I went from being a programmer to a team lead, to running departments, and then eventually started my own business, Container Solutions, that focuses on helping people with, well, we call cloud computing. I don't know how many of your listeners have heard of cloud computing. It's a little bit difficult to get away from nowadays.
00:04:25
Speaker
And that's the story. I ran Container Solutions for 10 years. We had a fantastic job. ah people function. And nowadays, since I stepped, not backwards, that's not fair, I stepped to the side so that a new chief exec could take over.
00:04:38
Speaker
And now I focus on communication and really difficult consult consulting problems with some of our bigger customers. That's interesting. You raised the point in there about cloud computing.
Understanding Cloud Computing and Providers
00:04:50
Speaker
So my next question has to be, we hear about it an awful lot, but from your technical experts perspective, what does it mean? Well, we heard about it recently because Amazon had an outage that took down thousands and thousands of businesses worldwide.
00:05:06
Speaker
So this became nationwide news because it dawned on governments and the general public that, oh my goodness, core infrastructure is now outsourced to an American tech company. But the cloud, I'll try to make this as simple as possible. And that's what I wrote the book for. i mean The book's title is fantastic, Visionaries, Rebels and Machines.
00:05:26
Speaker
um Its full title could have been Visionaries, Rebels and the Machines They Built. Now, the subtitle is just is too much of a mouthful, cloudification, electrification, but the subtitle explains what is in the tin.
00:05:40
Speaker
And what is in the tin is an explanation from what started on Thomas Edison's workbench, the light bulb, and evolved into a computer. So the the cloud has got nothing to do with the actual cloud. It's a complete, what's the word I'm looking for, Michael?
00:05:56
Speaker
It's a piece of misdirection, a little bit like what a magician does with their beautiful assistant. A cloud is simply a warehouse full of computers. That's it. It's as simple as that. So if I wanted today, for example, to start a podcasting business, you mentioned Zencaster earlier, I wouldn't have to buy any computers.
00:06:15
Speaker
So once upon a time when Netflix started, The guys at Netflix or the team at Amazon, they literally had to buy 10 powerful computers, put their website on it and serve that to their users.
00:06:26
Speaker
Well, the cloud is simply a way of renting computers from a big company. So they take the cost of buying the damn machines and you can focus on your business. So in that regard, it's a little bit similar to the electricity grid.
00:06:39
Speaker
You rent power from the power companies in the same way you rent computing power from the cloud giants. And there's only really three of them by the way. Who are the three? Well, the the f three big ones are Google, and Microsoft ah and Amazon itself.
00:06:52
Speaker
Okay, so Google, Amazon and Microsoft are the big three. There are others around as well. There are certainly smaller companies that provide computing in that way.
00:07:02
Speaker
And for there are many reasons for doing that. Lots of companies are scared about trusting their data with an American company. The political situation might change. So if you're a European company and you're afraid that the relationship you have with the United States might deteriorate, that could affect your business.
00:07:17
Speaker
So there are many reasons to either not use the public cloud or use a different provider, or in some cases use multiple providers in case it goes wrong with one of them. It sounds as if ah managing your cloud presence can actually be, well, there's a lot more to it than simply just plugging something in.
00:07:35
Speaker
Well, you see, that was the trick. That was the deception. That was the magician's beautiful assistant. Back in the day, and I covered this in chapter 14, I think, back in the day, it made a lot of sense for those selling cloud services to compare it to the grid.
00:07:50
Speaker
And say, well, it's just like the electricity grid. You plug it in and you only pay for what you use. Now, who who wouldn't want that? And of course, when you think of the electricity grid, you think of a safe, stable, and highly regulated service.
00:08:04
Speaker
Well, I'm afraid to say cloud computing is absolutely nothing like that. What you essentially do is rent a computer in a distant place. This is a little bit like renting a generator from the electricity company.
00:08:15
Speaker
And you might accidentally leave it switched on, in which case you've still got to pay for it. So to keep with that grid analogy, in my house, I could run around turning off my wife's tongs, switching the lights off after kids have all run off to school, and I would save money. I would be the grid team. I would be the grid operator.
00:08:35
Speaker
But in a big company, switching off all the things you're using in the cloud is absolutely is is actually remarkably difficult.
Challenges in Cloud Infrastructure Management
00:08:42
Speaker
So it's it's a little bit of misdirection to think that cloud computing is as easy to consume as electricity from the grid is.
00:08:49
Speaker
Yeah. Your analogy there with your family and switching things running around, switching things off, it creates quite an impression of what home life must be like there, Jamie, really. ah putting around But nowhere near as much running around. if you just Let's say, let's stick with Zencast. It's a nice application. You mentioned it in the beginning, so you started this. But let's just sticking with Zencast, even ah quite a simple application that does recording and chat functionality would probably require a whole team to manage the cloud infrastructure.
00:09:19
Speaker
believe me when I tell you we do not need a whole team to manage the grid in my house because it just falls to me every morning for five minutes running around the place. That's quite an image. But yeah, I know. And the team at Zencast, I have to say, are very good and have been very good to me. So I'm very grateful to them.
00:09:36
Speaker
But it does sound, if we run with that analogy of sort like the technology and then the human behavior, and like you say, you can't switch everything off inside an organization, That is one of the things in your book, isn't it really, that yeah you can an organization can focus on the technology, but actually ah large part of whether the implementation of the technology is going to be successful or not is really dependent upon the people.
00:10:03
Speaker
it's ah It's absolutely dependent on on the people.
The Role of People in Technology Adoption
00:10:06
Speaker
And um I'm guessing you're referring to chapter, i think it's chapter 12, where i I talk about a situation I was in.
00:10:14
Speaker
It's highly anonymized, of course, but a large corporation, and this is very typical for my work, asked me to come and speak to them about the cloud. I immediately, after a few questions, asked them about strategic HR. Well, what roles have you got? What responsibilities?
00:10:30
Speaker
Because the way you use these computers is iteratively. So the people using them need to be thinking about taking risks, thinking about ah learning through failure, And my counterpart, a senior, senior leader at this company looked at me like I was absolutely and crazy.
00:10:48
Speaker
ah And I'd said to them, well, it's a complete different skill set and you don't have the people for that. I was then very politely thrown out of the building. and And that tells you something that this is an isolated technological change, but it's absolutely not the case.
00:11:05
Speaker
The thing I see very often with some of our clients who using our technology is that they will be putting through a training program and sort of at the end of the time that you've used Abysida H2R, you should log out of the system.
00:11:20
Speaker
Don't leave it open. I can actually be sitting next to them, talking them through this, and then they thank me for having shown them how to use it and everything, and explain to me how easy it is. And then they get up and I say, you've not done the most important thing, and that's log out. So there's something almost about the logging out process. It's a very simple security activity that people just, it just doesn't happen. It doesn't compute, pardon the pun, for a lot of people. Someone once explained it to me, as if you walk into a room that is dark, you will switch the light on.
00:11:52
Speaker
But when you leave the room, you leave the light on. ah There's something about you don't create darkness on those psychological things. human nature. You cannot navigate in the room if it's dark, but you can exit it if the room is light. Yes.
00:12:07
Speaker
I think that's a good ah really good example. Cloud computing, you switch something on in a remote location. imagine switch if Imagine having a button on your desk that switches a light on 200 miles away.
00:12:18
Speaker
Of course, you're going to accidentally leave it and thousands of them on. That's why you need a team to monitor what your cloud is doing. So to give you a good example, this is this is a classic example. Once upon a time, I was in Spain.
00:12:31
Speaker
And the company we were helping kept having spikes in usage. All of a sudden, it was an e-commerce store. They would get ah think massive, massive spikes in traffic and their servers, their cloud computers couldn't handle it.
00:12:44
Speaker
And it turned out that the spike in traffic came because at half time during the football, people would quickly jump online and start ordering produce. Mm-hmm. We needed to, for example, switch on a bunch of machines just before half time, which you pay for, you you're renting them from the cloud company, and then after the spike had ended, you scale them down.
00:13:05
Speaker
This is classic cloud computing. The problem is people switch the machines on, they scale up, but they forget to scale down again. That is the challenge with cloud computing, and that is why you need you need teams of people to manage it, and the type of people with those skills are not the type of people the company usually has pre-cloud, thus making it a HR problem, primarily.
00:13:27
Speaker
It is an ah HR ah problem and you are talking to someone who was ah an HR person for a mail order company some time ago now, many years, many, many years ago.
00:13:38
Speaker
And one of the most important pieces of information that I needed was the football fixtures, the rugby fixtures, the international games. Because my job was to make sure that there were enough people in the warehouse to pick all the orders and pack them all so that the company could meet the guaranteed delivery time.
00:13:58
Speaker
If I didn't know when there was going to be an international game or a big event on the TV, I would not have enough people because at the time, you know football matches were shown on the television.
00:14:12
Speaker
Part of the family would be in the living room watching the football match and somebody else would be in the kitchen scanning through the paper catalogue and deciding what to order. it And there was always around these big sporting fixtures, there would be a spike in the number of orders.
00:14:28
Speaker
And yeah, you should be talking to me. to build. And remarkably, HR people understand this. They understand seasonality and heights and troughs. But there are many chief executives out there who do not understand this, have got absolutely no interest in this, and do not have that a people or a HR function in their executive team, or if they do, they don't listen to them.
00:14:51
Speaker
And this is very frustrating for them when they meet me, because I don't know if you've you've figured this out yet, Michael, I'm an extremely entertaining person. You are. I know tons and tons about cloud computing. I know how to get stuff done, but they become very disappointed when they expect an entertaining discussion with me about AI and cloud computing, but I start with the HR question.
00:15:13
Speaker
And I ask them, what are your plan what are your plans for refreshing your workforce? This is a question most chief executives don't want because it's unpalatable. They know that refreshing the workforce might mean redundancies in some cases, or it might mean reshaping the the organization. That takes work. That's the type of diligent, long-term work that is valuable, as opposed to the shiny fun work of getting a proof of concept up and running.
00:15:39
Speaker
These people should know better, but unfortunately, they often don't. Well, I think I'm not i'm obviously an HR professional and I'm not going to disagree with you at all, because I do think that whenever there is any type of change in an organization, whether it's technical or logistical, whatever way it is, very often the people who will be responsible for working with the new situation, the new technology, the new way of working,
00:16:08
Speaker
are the ones that are forgotten until the very end and very often forgotten until somebody says, actually, this isn't working as we expected it to. Right, in it and a talented HR person understands strategic resource planning, the type of people you need now and the type of people you need next year.
00:16:26
Speaker
And this is nearly always overlooked when you move to the cloud. yeah And yet remarkably, Netflix were really the most famous customer of Amazon's cloud. They wrote about this, they wrote a book about this, and all Netflix do, you won't be surprised to hear, all they do is talk about people.
00:16:46
Speaker
They rarely talk about technology. Yeah, the technology is just and something that makes everything else come together. The point I was trying to make is even in, let's say, a normal or junior HR professional would know what all of you bloody well should know.
00:17:00
Speaker
Yes, it's all one of those things. And I think that's where the book, Visionaries, Rebels and Machines, the story of humanity's extraordinary journey from electrification to cloudification, that becomes such an interesting book from an HR perspective and terms of getting to understand where we have come from in order to be to understand where we are now so that we can then actually move forward very positively.
Historical and Modern Perspectives on Technology
00:17:26
Speaker
And I think we need, in order to understand how to adapt to cloudification. We need to understand how people adapted to electrification. Partially that's true.
00:17:37
Speaker
That's correct. So when was industrial electrification? electrification, the reason, see, what I've done is I've done a very sneaky thing in the book. I want to speak to managers and leaders. So it really is a book written for people who build teams and lead teams.
00:17:54
Speaker
Electrification really happened in the late Victorian period. So the it all it all more or less happened in the 1880s. So within a three-month period, the internal combustion engine the harmonic telegraph, which became known as the telephone, and the electricity grid all came to life. I think i think it's within a three-month period, but certainly within that decade.
00:18:15
Speaker
So before the 1880s, which some people have described as miraculous, before the 1880s, the human race was eking out a living the of the earth, living in darkness, were were lit by candlelight.
00:18:29
Speaker
After the 1880s, you see huge advancements for the very first time in ah lighting, electrical distribution, and the electric grid then lent itself to the modern urban setting.
00:18:41
Speaker
Because without a lift powered by electricity, without an elevator, you could not build high rises. So cities were much more sprawling than you think. So all of a sudden, at the turn of the last century, all the pieces for large scale electrification were in place.
00:18:57
Speaker
Now, another thing happened, slightly less interesting to techies at least, but policies changed. So the FDA in the United States and its equivalent equivalent in Europe started to regulate how food could be produced.
00:19:10
Speaker
So at exactly the same time that we started to light the world, it started to also become a healthier place. This is where it gets quite difficult. exciting and also a little bit scary.
00:19:21
Speaker
Every single version of technology that came after was powered by the technologies that came before it. So the light bulb changed into the vacuum tube, which allowed us to do radio and television. have the like The vacuum tube itself then changed into the transistor, which allowed us to do computing on microchips.
00:19:40
Speaker
The microchips eventually got so powerful that you can have a desktop computer and then you can have enough computers to fill ah warehouse. So that is really the story. And so at the turn of this century, all of the pieces were in place for large scale cloudification, exactly like they've been in place for wide scale electrification.
00:20:02
Speaker
And surprise, surprise, 25 years into this century, we now have artificial intelligence and computing systems that, well, are remarkable in their in their breadth and their power and and their tentacles are, you know, right into the depths of society now.
00:20:17
Speaker
That is fascinating, really. That is, I am fascinated by what you have just explained in terms of how we've gone in from the 1880s, so 150 years, essentially, we've gone from having our rooms lit with candles and wanting to make sure that we are home before the sun goes down type of thing, to cloud computers and probably going out and staying out late at night because electricity allows us to light streets and nightclubs and all sorts of things.
00:20:50
Speaker
with more power on the computer in our phone than we've got in our pocket. Well, the story is the computers that took um Neil Armstrong to the moon. We've now got more computing power in our pocket than was involved in that.
00:21:03
Speaker
So it's it's fascinating the sort of how things happen and how they change so quickly. But I think from a change perspective, it's about making those connections.
00:21:15
Speaker
The way I explain this is that the people in the 1830s had more in common with those in the ah at the times of Jesus than they do have they had in common with their own grandchildren.
00:21:27
Speaker
So the world completely changed. So to put this into perspective, if we were being monitored by aliens, they would be wondering why has this green and blue planet that has laid dormant for millions and billions of years within a 10-year period started pulsating radiation from right across the electromagnetic spectrum.
00:21:48
Speaker
It was a remarkable transformation. We had never seen more change than we saw in the years from 1880 the to the nineteen ten We would think that we have advanced much, much more recently than actually, but when you put it into perspective from candles to electric light bulbs, that was a serious, serious life-changing, world-changing situation.
00:22:11
Speaker
And of course, and before that with the telegraph, we you know the communication and transportation were synonyms. yeah You could get a letter to somebody as fast as a horse could gallop or a ship could sail.
00:22:22
Speaker
Once a telegraph came in, we had lightning speed communication. ah that That was absolutely mind-blowing. Some historians have said it was so jarring for the people at the time.
00:22:33
Speaker
We never experienced that as a species, again, until those nuclear bombs on Japan and and just after the was coming an end. Yes, yes. I'm bit dumbstruck, really. Yeah, sos it's all remarkable stuff. And I'm glad you said you that you thought it was fascinating because the reviews of the book are often one-word reviews, remarkable, fantastic, eye-opening. And that's what I tried to do, Michael. I was very, very sneaky.
00:22:58
Speaker
I wanted to teach the reader about cloud computing, artificial intelligence, and why it mattered. But I couldn't do that without pulling them into a narrative. And what my book does, and I don't think there's any other book around that does it is instead of deep diving on the grid or the computer or the transistor I shoot an arrow through time I went back in my time machine I shot an arrow in the that landed in 2025 and along the way and along the way It's like a relay race, a set of stories where the baton is passed from one visionary and rebel to the next one.
00:23:33
Speaker
But my hope is, and I really, really do hope I pull this off, is to teach people about computers, how to build big systems. I want to demystify the whole thing because one way or another,
00:23:44
Speaker
These machines are here and they are not going away. So you can't opt out of this. i don't know I don't know what your parents were like, but my mother wouldn't touch the VCR. She'd be like, press play on the VCR. I'm not touching it. I'm not touching it. She's terrified of the machine.
00:23:58
Speaker
And that's fine because she had children. But right now, cannot opt out of computers. I can't say, oh, well, computers are not for me because I've got children and I need them to navigate the world they live in.
00:24:09
Speaker
This is the premise the book. This is my home from the book.
Critique of Modern Tech Leaders
00:24:11
Speaker
talk about in the book, the rebels and the visionaries. Do you have a favorite favorite rebel and a favorite visionary? Oh, it's yeah probably Licklider. Not all the visionaries and rebels were good people.
00:24:21
Speaker
So JCR Licklider was a good person. Apparently his wife was beautiful. Not but that not that that should matter. and But she was a good person as well. They had children. And he was he was just, I shouldn't say just, he was a civil servant. He didn't spend his own money. He certainly didn't make money, but he, through his work with the Department of Defense, planted all of the seeds that would eventually become the personal computer.
00:24:47
Speaker
And Licklider understood, he was a psychologist, Licklider understood that you could commune with a machine, you could talk to it iteratively, and in that conversation, really creative things could happen.
00:25:00
Speaker
So I think Licklider would have to be up there. and i think Thomas Edison gets a bad rap. I think Thomas Edison... Strikes me as a great guy. he was so commercially successful, he had to dirty his hands on commercial matters.
00:25:13
Speaker
Nobody survives that. right And of course, people like Bezos and Elon Musk and Zuckerberg, I've got no time for whatsoever. They will never go down in a future version of Visionaries, Rebels and Machines.
00:25:26
Speaker
Oh, we will have to discuss the reasons for that at another time. But I'm fascinated by the book and your conversation with me today and the explanation. i think it's ah brilliant. I totally recommend the book, the podcast. And, you know, I'll probably listen back to this this episode a couple of times as well. But thank For today, Jamie, thank you very much for helping me make such an interesting and timely episode of The Independent Minds. Thank you.
Conclusion and Recommendations
00:25:57
Speaker
Thank you. I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with The Independent Mind Jamie Dobson, a co-founder of Container Solutions and author of both The Cloud Native Attitude and the recently published Visionaries, Rebels and Machines, the story of humanity's extraordinary journey from electrification to cloudification.
00:26:21
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us by using the links in the description. The cloud is a great place to store information and one of the most important pieces of information we can have is the information that we know about our health.
00:26:35
Speaker
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00:26:48
Speaker
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00:27:01
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00:27:15
Speaker
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00:27:29
Speaker
I am sure you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Jamie and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:27:41
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. You'll probably want to share the link with your friends, family and work colleagues as well. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abusida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:27:58
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.