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BrandJitsu™ – a conversation with author Michael Dargie
13 Plays3 days ago
Michael Dargie explains how to move your brand from 'meh' to memorable.
Michael Dargie is equal parts creative rebel and strategic thinker, the author of "BrandJitsu™: Move Your Brand From 'Meh' To Memorable", host of the Rebel Rebel podcast and founder of Make More Creative, a Calgary-based Creative Intelligence Agency specializing in brand development, strategy, and storytelling using the BrandJitsu™ methodology he created.
In this episode of The Independent Minds Michael explains the BrandJitsu marketing approach to host Michael Millward
Their conversation covers
- What a brand is
- The importance of making an emotional connection with a brand
- Living your brand so other people can feel your brand
Michael Dargie uses real world examples to illustrate his explanation including Piersons a funeral service based in Calgary.
More information about Michael Dargoe and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Independent Minds' and Guest Jimmy Okubanjo
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencastr Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida. Today, my guest independent mind is Jimmy Okubanjo. Jimmy is working to break down the barriers that stop women of color finding joy and fulfillment in their careers.
Podcast Production and Jimmy's Mission
00:00:40
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms.
00:00:55
Speaker
Zencastr really does make making content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com and use my offer code. All the details are in the description.
00:01:08
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencast is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:20
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Today, my guest independent mind, who I met at matchmaker.fm, is Jimmy Okubanjo.
00:01:36
Speaker
Jimmy is working to break down the barriers that stop women of color finding joy and fulfillment in their careers. Jimmy is based in Kent, the Garden of England.
00:01:48
Speaker
That's the bit that is closest to France.
Transition to Filmmaking and 'Arise Fiber'
00:01:50
Speaker
That makes Kent the sort of place that a lot of people travel through. But if you decide to stop off in Kent, I recommend you do like I do and make your travel arrangements through the Ultimate Travel Club.
00:02:02
Speaker
That is where you will get access to trade prices on hotels and all sorts of other travel related purchases. There is a link and a membership discount in the description. now. Hello, Jimmy. Hello, Michael. Please, could we start with you just giving us a little bit of your background, please? Sure.
00:02:19
Speaker
As you mentioned, I live in England, m Kent. I've worked for a few decades in management consulting and operations management. largely in in STEM sectors. few years ago, I kind of stopped that and transitioned into filmmaking, storytelling around what it takes to be resilient in the workplace, especially for traditionally underrepresented professionals.
00:02:42
Speaker
And at the moment you're working on on what it's like for women of colour in in work. So the current the film, Arise Fibre, yes, it it talks about the experiences of professional mid-career and senior women of colour in the UK. look into that?
00:03:01
Speaker
It was based on my own experiences in the corporate world. When I was starting to struggle in terms of just with the treatment, just with yeah with the treatment, I found that really what it was very difficult for me to to explain to people around me, people who cared about me.
00:03:19
Speaker
what was going on, they had so many questions and it was very difficult in that moment to be articulate when I felt like my hair was on fire all of the time. It's extremely emotional situation. It was definitely intense. My hope with the with the with the movie and um the subsequent work we're doing off the back of that was to bear witness, to be able to explain what's going on and bring people to that point in a very in a much more coherent way.
00:03:46
Speaker
um which I think the film does. ah For those who are going through this, hopefully start them on the journey or continue them on the journey of healing, really, but starting from a place of like, this is that um a vindication and validation.
00:03:58
Speaker
This is actually going on and I'm not imagining it and it's not in my own head. We can start the conversation there and hopefully move it into a space of how do I be my best person knowing at least today I can't change the
Challenges and Resilience for Women of Color
00:04:14
Speaker
world.
00:04:14
Speaker
For people who haven't experienced this, we need to give definition to the issues that not just women, but women of color face in a professional work environment. Because the problems and issues and challenges that women in general face are different for a woman of color.
00:04:31
Speaker
It's hard for me to to speak about that. I'll i'll i'll give it an answer, but I want to call ah qualify my answer first too. ask why women, women of color, people of color, anyone is treated differently is othered by someone who isn't me would require me to get into that person's head and mind. and I really don't know really why someone does that um in that scenario. One of the reasons it is pervasive is i think a lot of companies, it's just not the most important thing to resolve the issue or even to look into it. We've done quite a lot of conversations with Arise Firebird and a consistent theme is you know companies really have quote unquote more important things to deal with. right
00:05:10
Speaker
How much is is it really worth their while shifting their focus to look after the minority, you know that the whatever percentage of people of color, women of color in their workforce. And from a lot of the conversations I've been getting, is it it just really isn't. However, for someone who who is on the receiving end of that treatment, where going to work, like I said, it's like, you know, your hair, one's hair is on fire every day.
00:05:35
Speaker
it is a very important issue. And I feel that disconnect is a big reason why so many people are leaving because it's such a critical issue because every day I go to work,
00:05:47
Speaker
it's really, really painful. Like every cell in my body is in incredible pain. At the same time for my employer, it's just not that important yes for them to understand why they treat us differently. Because ultimately I can't, I really, don't have an answer to that, Michael, in terms of why that is, but I can speak the disconnect in terms of it's very different, it's very, very different priorities for different people. I totally get what you mean.
00:06:14
Speaker
How can someone who is subject to the discrimination understand why someone is behaving in a way that makes them feel like that? Does the other person know that they're doing it?
00:06:26
Speaker
Some will, some won't. Some won't appreciate the impact that things that they think are innocent activities, innocent innocent things to say, will actually have on someone else.
00:06:39
Speaker
What is it like for the women that you have been speaking to when you say going to work with your hair on fire every day? What sort of things are they experiencing that results in that type of emotional reaction?
00:06:52
Speaker
I think the one of the ways to frame it, and there are many ways to frame this, really, it's the death by a thousand cuts and cuts of different sizes. I think of the term microaggression.
00:07:03
Speaker
as not the right word. I know people think, oh, like microaggressions. And these aren't really microaggressions because I think ah someone took a at a needle, a very thin sewing needle, and poked it into a police officer. That person would not be charged with microassaults. No, no, they wouldn't. no The thinnest needle you can find and you poke it into, it will not be my career as a result. But I think it's the buildup over a decade. So I meet a lot of people who talk about that one, they have the and horrible and experience they had at work, a horrible year they had with manager, that client experience.
00:07:37
Speaker
who was terrible. And I find that people are able to speak about that in very singular terms. Like there was this instant, it was really bad. I remember five years ago on that project when someone did that.
00:07:50
Speaker
Imagine that one project that you remember that was horrible five years ago, Michael. Yes. And that'd be every day of your career. for 35 years. yeah That's what it is. So it's not just one or two things. It's a constant, it's your it's your worst day. Every day. Every day. For some people. Some people, it's your worst day every other day. It's your worst day every morning.
00:08:13
Speaker
But it's that's normal. It's not like, okay, there was this one incident. So they there was this one incident where this one thing happened and then I knew. No, it's like, that's just every single day. And then also on the way to work and on the way back from work and the supermarket.
Coping Mechanisms and Identity Struggles
00:08:27
Speaker
and the client side and it's building up and then I'm blamed for not performing well in that kind of scenario as well. So it just, it built it builds up and adding to the fact that for my employer, it's just not that important. yes It's just not that important. So it's yeah it's hard to explain.
00:08:45
Speaker
But the thing for us is also important that because it can feel so overwhelming, like where do you start? Like for me, like where does one even start to unpick that as an underrepresented professional and note in the Western workplace? Where do you even start? Because it's it's like it's ubiquitous.
00:09:01
Speaker
And so we hope with the movie is like, no, and it doesn't with the movie, but you know It's important to give people of color, women of color, anyone really, you know it could be someone who's working class and a in an environment where they're being treated that way every day, somewhere to start in terms of unpacking, on and unpeeling, and really know reconnecting with with who they the gift of who they really are.
00:09:24
Speaker
When you mentioned the working class thing, I've spoken with people who will say that they are constantly being reminded that they came from this part of town, that they went to that type of school. And I've also spoken to people of color women, and I've seen press reports of things where people have reported, well, actually I am a senior executive in this organization, but somebody new thought I was the cleaner.
00:09:47
Speaker
And it comes down to the color of my skin. They assume that someone with my skin colour is going to be in a menial job, a low-level job, rather than the very senior job that I actually have. And then I suppose you can almost say silly little things, which I have heard people recounting those types of experiences and laughing about them. And sometimes if you didn't laugh, you would cry. When you can say those sorts of things, you've reached the point where you're living in an in an unhealthy environment. And that's what you're talking about with many of the people that you've got involved in this film project. I think what's interesting is it's often a lot of things that build up. I would imagine even with that example of somebody new who mistook them for a cleaner, again, there's nothing inherently wrong with being a cleaner.
00:10:36
Speaker
No, there is nothing wrong with it at all. Or doing sanitation work in an office. They have very important things to do. However, what's interesting with those scenarios is if that was the only thing that happened, right, it probably wouldn't bother that individual. Because, yeah, like like if you came in and someone thought you were the cleaner, it would be up annoying, but it would be like, in fact, very bizarre.
00:11:02
Speaker
And you'll probably be able to laugh, you know really laugh about it or get, you know, ah but it's going to be that moment. but But for a lot of us, a lot of people, a lot of those things have been happening in different ways.
00:11:13
Speaker
And the way to cope with it is to just suppress the emotion, to suppress. So to then a quote unquote silly little thing is really painful because it's like, it's touching on a nerve. So think of like a a broken bone that hasn't fully healed.
00:11:29
Speaker
Someone broke a bone. They wrapped it up, but they didn't actually go to the doctor. Didn't get it sorted. And they're coming to work and hobbling on that broken bone. And then someone comes and just brushes against their toe.
00:11:43
Speaker
And it's like... yeah Because the person's foot is broken. And they're just keeping it all together. And this tiny blick upsets the entire foot.
00:11:55
Speaker
Because really, there's a lot of damage on there that hasn't really been and dealt with. Because the way to cope in the moment when these things happen, for a lot of us, it's just to it's to is to swallow it and keep on going, to smile so the people around us don't feel uncomfortable.
00:12:15
Speaker
That's a really interesting point, that someone who's subject to this type of behaviour is putting other people first. And I remember being a school governor secondary school governor and sitting in a meeting with the head teacher who was explaining the anti-bullying policy of the school and how when every 11-year-old arrives in year seven,
00:12:40
Speaker
They have an assembly about bullying and the head teacher explains all the different things that a bully needs in order to feel good about a bully.
00:12:51
Speaker
And one of those things is that they need an audience. There is no point in being a bully unless other people can see that you're a bully and can be as frightened of you as the person that you are bullying.
00:13:05
Speaker
I'm lucky it's them, it's not me. And it's similar to this. Unless you are in that situation, you don't know what impact the behavior, the words could have on the person who is subject to those.
00:13:21
Speaker
Even if we do not understand, even if we do know, the majority of people, I think, keep quiet. They don't say anything because we don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to be seen to be the person who's correcting someone else.
00:13:37
Speaker
And yet, what of someone who's subject to that type of abuse behavior needs sometimes is probably someone else to stand up and say, that's not right.
00:13:49
Speaker
I feel it in a perfect world, Michael, Yes, that would be great. Because ah you're you're right, that would be wonderful in a perfect world. When those things happen, someone will stand up.
00:14:00
Speaker
But the truth is most of us don't work in a perfect world or anywhere near it.
Resilience and Organizational Culture Adaptation
00:14:06
Speaker
And so what I would, so yes, that's that would be great. Honestly, you know, i that would be great if when those things happened, people did stand up. I also i also really hope that, you know, people do feel inspired to do that.
00:14:21
Speaker
But the reality is for the vast majority, that is not going to happen. This is why things like the work we're doing with Rice Firebird is important because we need to help professionals develop adaptive resilience.
00:14:34
Speaker
So how are you going to, what are you going to do if your company won't change by Monday? Because you're going back to work on Monday and that situation will still be there. So it's important to also think in terms of how can we help underrepresented professionals where they are right now so that at least we can minimize, so they can they can protect themselves. Yeah, you're talking about, I think, developing some element of psychological safety I don't like the term psychological safety. I think of the word adaptive resilience much more than psychological safety because I feel psychological is little safety requires community to do a communal, a community space.
00:15:13
Speaker
And I think in a perfect world, we can get there. So asking a team that is to be, to become psychologically safe may not happen, what will not happen for most of us by Monday.
00:15:24
Speaker
So what do you do until then? What do you do until the six months, the one year, the 20 years, the 25 years is going to take your organization to do the work. That's the piece we're really interested in. Yeah, I was just about to ask you or how long do you think this will take? There's almost an element of me that wants to say, have you given up on the ability or the desire of organizations to change this?
00:15:49
Speaker
I would say that my my work is, It's really about helping people who want the help. So we didn't make Arise Firebird for organizations. We made it for the people themselves going through it.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yes, it makes a lot of sense. it It doesn't matter how long it will take an organisation to change. It doesn't matter if it's even willing or unwilling to change. What we have to accept, I suppose, is that yeah for anyone who's in any type of minority group, they will all face these types of issues at work and away from work.
00:16:26
Speaker
And the important part is... learning how to, i don't want to use the word survive, but that I'll use your words, how to develop the adaptive resilience so that you can understand the situation and work out how you are going to deal with it individually and internally, but how also, I suppose, you can deal with it externally as well. and I'm thinking those two are really different.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think i think that's that's a fair way to look at it. I think because the question may be, you may not want to deal with externally. That's also part of it, whatever that decision looks like. It's really about, you know, saying putting on one's own oxygen mask first. Yes. And assessing really what is what is going on because we can't, you know, you can't pour from empty, an empty but ah empty well. yeah One has to get get filled up. And it's, so when I say, I think about, you know, have you, you're calling about giving up on changing organizations.
00:17:23
Speaker
I think the best way to change an organization is really with the the leadership and the people within the organization. So getting the individuals who care about this in ah in a better state of mind probably has a better chance of influencing the organization much more than, say, an outsider coming in.
00:17:42
Speaker
Yes. The other piece for me was, you know, you made a comment around, you know, everyone who's a minority will go through this. And the truth is, we don't know. There are always going to be exceptions and outliers in everyone's experience. And a lot of people, lot of women, people of color, gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, intersex professionals,
00:18:01
Speaker
neurodiverse individuals, we're going to have very different experiences. And some people are going to have the privilege of working in organizations that are not just quote unquote doing the work.
00:18:13
Speaker
They started doing the work decades ago. And you get to go into an organization that really committed to this decades ago. That doesn't mean that because one works in such a company, you you don't have to work hard and there aren't challenges and you don't work your you know you don't work yourre behind off to get to where you've gotten to.
00:18:33
Speaker
But there is a certain degree of privilege if you're in a company that really, really committed that work decades ago versus going to an organization that is committed to it like five years ago, they're really committed to it, but only five years ago.
00:18:48
Speaker
or a company that really isn't really doing it. And they're going to be very different experiences for those or those individuals. That's the reality. So it's also important to understand that our experiences aren't going to be uniform because we're not a monolith.
00:19:06
Speaker
and so it's and and And recognizing that it's not it's not because I'm a bad person, I couldn't cut it. that ah that someone else crashed left their careers after 20 years and somebody else has been has continued ascending.
00:19:20
Speaker
It's not because you're a bad person or incompetent. And the person who's ascending, it's not because you didn't work hard. You also did work hard.
Assessing Workplaces and Personal Success
00:19:28
Speaker
But it's but it's it's one thing about working hard in a welcoming environment or a more welcoming environment versus working hard in an environment that fundamentally is hostile.
00:19:41
Speaker
Whilst you've been doing the research for the film, have you identified anything that would be useful to someone as they start their career to able to identify? Or even someone who's thinking about moving jobs and moving to a new organisation, Have you identified anything that someone, a woman of color needs to think about when they're talking to a new potential employer that might help them to identify whether they'd be moving into a welcoming work environment or not?
00:20:16
Speaker
but The obvious answer is probably the one that's the hardest is how many people who look like you are at your level and above in that organization.
00:20:30
Speaker
And if they if they can all point to the same person, it's just, oh, we all know Tanika, Tanika, Tanika, then that's that's a red flag because it's only one person. yeah If they only have one, if they don't have anybody, which is the case, that's, so it's it's a decision, whether they're like, I mean, it's ah whether it's conscious or not, it's a decision.
00:20:48
Speaker
if they don't have anyone, if they have one person, that's also a decision. And the reality is a lot of us are going to be in that situation where we're the only person. Yes. Going into that role. It it's it is, so there is that, I think, understanding, you know, the tenure, the last woman, of the ah the last person who looked like you, you know, or even just in general, in terms of the diversity of the t of the leadership team, how long those people lasted, what what what what their exit was like. I think the the the bit the bigger question is more internal.
00:21:22
Speaker
you know, as one is changing roles, like, what is your definition of success really and how connected to your employer or your your job is that definition success?
00:21:35
Speaker
Because if we can have a more personalized, compassionate, nuanced definition of success and money can be part of it and but getting promoted can be part of it and for all of us it is and it should be. ye But having the nuance in that staying or going or moving on is gonna be a very different experience because this the the the the metrics for success are gonna be yours internal.
00:22:00
Speaker
yes um So for example, it may be the sales target for that region is $500 million dollars and that's what you have to hit plus some other stuff like some training stuff and you've got to bring down you go to and bring down turnover, you've got to also improve quality. But if you know that actually everyone else in your team they they have like half that target, twice the resources.
00:22:25
Speaker
I may be happy. I have to figure out a peace of mind that actually, okay, I can hit the sales target. the quality chart The quality number may just not be where I hit it. And to be comfortable with that this is what I'm going to try and aspire to. And I'm going to work towards that and um and do the work to be congruent in that space.
00:22:44
Speaker
It may be accepting i'm not I'm not going to get promoted for four years and my colleagues are going to get promoted in two years. And in that four-year window, I'm going to be looking for opportunities to grow and broaden my skill base and my knowledge base versus pursuing a like a a higher role because then that will position me for a job you know in a different division.
00:23:09
Speaker
And that may be how I get my my promotion, by gathering skills and going diagonally up versus vertically up. So it's just really trying to redefine and reassess what what progression could look like for us. And, you know, it may not be something we can discuss with our line manager or our sponsors or our champions and organizations, because they may want you to progress within their, within their division.
00:23:35
Speaker
And they won't, don't want you to, to, to, to train you and have you go somewhere else. That's true. what we you're describing is identifying and understanding the negatives, but then turning those negatives into a positive, which actually equips you to be stronger when you are in the new position, whether that's a promoted position or a diagonal move you turn the negative into a positive and get yourself where you want to go but also you've got to start by understanding what your definition of success is and making sure that that links in and connects with the job and the work that you're doing it's really very interesting highly recommend having a look at this film where can people see this film then jimmy So right now we are only doing film festivals,
00:24:27
Speaker
And we're doing a selection of private screen screening events with companies and and professional associations in particular.
Film Availability and Additional Resources
00:24:35
Speaker
okay We are aiming to do a PBS release in the United States.
00:24:39
Speaker
Yeah. the Other options, we are going to be doing a sneak peek of the film later in the year. So if people are interested in and in being aware when the sneak peek is going to be coming out, um if they they so if they yeah sign up to our website, we will let them know what we're going to Okay. If for them to sign up to your website, we need to tell them what the address website address is. It is www.arisefiber.com.
00:25:05
Speaker
Brilliant. Jimmy, this has been really very interesting for me. Thank you very much. i really appreciate your time. Same here. Same here. And thank you so much for praying for just having me on. It's been a real pleasure, Michael.
00:25:17
Speaker
Thank you. Privilege is all mine. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Jimmy Okubanjo, who works to break down barriers at work for women of colour.
00:25:34
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abucida.co.uk. There's a link in the description.
Podcasting Tools and Future Episodes
00:25:40
Speaker
I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Jimmy.
00:25:46
Speaker
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if, like Jimmy, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:25:59
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. If you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone in the United Kingdom, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data. So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering.
00:26:18
Speaker
There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3.0 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:26:30
Speaker
That description is well worth reading. If you've liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:26:41
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
00:26:54
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.