Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Leader as Coach – a conversation with author Ed Temple MCC
8 Plays1 day ago
A simple and accessible coaching model
Ed Temple MCC is an executive leadership coach at Bright Wire Leadership in Calgary in Canada. He is also a programme chair at Lethbridge College.
He is the author of The Leader as Coach, creator of the SPROUT coaching model and the Enzo coaching support APP.
In this episode of The Independent Minds Ed and host Michael Millward draw parallels between the way the city of Calgary comes together for the famous stampede the relationship building involved in leadership.
Michael and Ed discuss the evolution of coaching and how the different stages of the coaching experience have changed as coaching has developed.
They draw conclusions how to make coaching work. This includes a discussion about
- Personal values
- Definitions of success
- Leadership and coaching
- The challenges of experiencing change
- Perceptions and expectations of coaching
You will leave this episode with a new perspective of the value of coaching.
More information about Ed Temple and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
Audience Offers
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Travel
With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel anywhere else at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and many more travel related purchases.
Fit For Work We recommend The Annual Health Test from York Test; a 39-health marker Annual Health Test conducted by an experienced phlebotomist with hospital standard tests carried out in a UKAS-accredited and CQC-compliant laboratory.
A secure Personal Wellness Hub provides easy-to-understand results and lifestyle guidance
Visit York Test and use this discount code MIND25.
Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
We recommend the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We use Matchmaker.fm to connect with potential guests If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where great guests and great hosts are matched and great podcasts are hatched. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:21
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida. Today, my guest Independent Mind is Edward Temple, the visionary mind behind the book The Leader as Coach.
00:00:37
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, and Google.
00:00:56
Speaker
It really does make making content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, please visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
00:01:11
Speaker
All the details are in the description.
Meet Edward Temple and His Innovations
00:01:14
Speaker
Now that I've told you how wonderful Zencast is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:26
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Today, my guest Independent Mind is Edward Temple, Director of Innovation and Engagement at Bright Wire Leadership.
00:01:45
Speaker
He's also a lecturer at Leff Bridge College, Calgary, Canada. Ed is also the visionary mind behind the book, The Leader as Coach.
00:01:57
Speaker
If that wasn't enough to keep someone busy, Ed also created the Sprout Coaching Model and the Enzo Coaching Tool. Hello, Ed. Hello. are you doing today?
00:02:08
Speaker
I'm doing very well. I'm looking forward to this conversation. So am I. So am I. You are based in Calgary, Canada. That I am. Yeah. we're got Spring has sprung here in Yorkshire in the UK, but I think you've still got a little time to wait for that to happen, haven't you?
00:02:23
Speaker
I do. It's on its way, and we're in the foothills of the Rockies. And so we kind of have ah interesting weather. So we're going to get more snow. We know that. and But we can feel spring coming. So we're looking forward to it.
00:02:36
Speaker
That's great. That's great to know. I've never been to Calgary. And I will admit that before a friend moved there, I always thought that Calgary must be in the United States, mainly because of the cowboy connection.
00:02:49
Speaker
Well, Calgary is in Canada because, and it's the home of the legendary Stampede. But I then discovered I am not wrong. There is a Calgary in Texas. yeah It's not quite as famous and it's not quite as big.
00:03:03
Speaker
but you know there is one so i'm not completely wrong but the reality is i haven't been to either but if i am going to travel to either calgary in texas or calgary in alberta canada i will be sure to make all of my travel arrangements with the ultimate travel club because that is where i can access trade prices on flights and hotels there is a link and a membership discount code in the description Now enough about me and my travel ambitions.
Cultural Insight: The Calgary Stampede
00:03:31
Speaker
Tell us a little bit more about Calgary, please, ed Well, I was going to say, if you're going to make a trip here, I would advise to come in July. It's our best weather, but that's the Stampede. We have over 1.2 million people come to the city for our Stampede.
00:03:45
Speaker
Everybody gets to play cowboy, a cowgirl for a week, and it's a great event. But we are much like Denver in our weather pattern being kind of in the foothills of the Rockies.
00:03:56
Speaker
Business-wise, we're a little bit more like Houston and Dallas in the U.S. around the energy industry and the oil and gas corporate headquarters. That's kind of part of what are makes up our city.
00:04:06
Speaker
And i know for your U.K. listeners, that doesn't really orientate you to being connected to the U.S. s places, but I find people kind of have some experiences of different places like that. And so I found as I've encountered them,
00:04:19
Speaker
um I have roots in ah Cambridge. That's um my where my family came over 100 years ago. But a little famous connection I like to make is the Archbishop of Canterbury, William Temple, is a distant uncle of mine. And I do my best to collect his books and ah fascinated with some of that family history that we have.
00:04:40
Speaker
Great. It's like the world is a much, much smaller place than we ever imagined. And the various different connections that we have. July is the time to visit Calgary in Canada.
00:04:52
Speaker
That's when you get your big cowboy Stetson hat. And I also understand that you get your um stampede breakfast as well. All over the city. I mean, in my neighborhood, they do a stampede breakfast.
00:05:04
Speaker
So every day of the week, you can drop in in all sorts of places and there'll be lineups of people getting ah pancakes and bangers and all that fun stuff. Great stuff. And I suppose that must be one of the times when the business community get together and Absolutely.
00:05:17
Speaker
And that's one of the things I oversee for Brightwires. I'm the the lead on the partnership that we have with our our chamber here. And during the Stampede, it's kind of interesting. Most businesses take at least one day off for the parade.
00:05:29
Speaker
So everybody gets an extra day off. And then you'll see downtown, everybody's in in jeans and cowboy hats all week long, whether they're working or not. And a lot of the city comes to a standstill to go and participate, but a lot of business and connections are happening during that. Our CEO is there throughout the whole week, busy with activities because there's so many important relationships and connections happening. I mean, people have fun, but there's also a lot of business conversations happening at the same time.
00:05:55
Speaker
That's when you say the stampede and relationships happening around that. and and that's one of the things that seems to be a feature of your Sprout coaching model and the Enzo
Relationship-Based Coaching and Leadership
00:06:08
Speaker
tool. The whole sort of approach that you're taking to coaching is much more relationship based and your approach to leadership as a result as well. you're Your approach to leadership is much more relationship based than the traditional command and control approach.
00:06:26
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you know, my fundamentally, my, my belief in my drive is the importance of humanizing, you know, our work context. And sometimes we lose some of those elements through the requirements of, of results and performance policy and bureaucracy. And we kind of get lost in that.
00:06:45
Speaker
And so it's, And coaching to me is that leadership skill, the leadership skill around helping people connect on the human level. And that's been my experience. And I think that's what everybody really looks for. at the end of the day, the way we spend our lives and our work is really an expression of who we are. And it's a big part of what we do.
00:07:03
Speaker
And so how do we also touch on those human elements around where we find purpose? We get a sense of ah value out of work, giving value, receiving value. And I think coaching is just such a great conduit for that to happen.
00:07:16
Speaker
So I totally get what you're saying there because listening to you, I was thinking like, yeah, I've worked in so many organizations. When I worked in North American organizations, it was like the quarterly figures.
00:07:28
Speaker
yeah You either soared or fell on by the wayside based upon the quarterly figures of the organization. And for some people in some jobs, their own personal quarterly figures would determine where they were working after the end of the quarter.
00:07:45
Speaker
it's one of those um sort of things where just listening to you there, I've started to think, yeah, well, actually in some organizations, some stages of your career, you feel like a functionary rather than ah than a human being. you're You're there simply to perform a function and
Work, Identity, and Coaching's Role
00:08:06
Speaker
your manager is there to make sure that you do that.
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah, you're right. Like, especially within the corporate environment. I mean, that's really kind of the nature and it can become a transactional relationship where you are there to perform something. And when you're not, then there's going to be interventions and things are going to be done. it's kind of like the people who perform well are going to do well. And those don't, ah you know, get left behind. And I think it just helps remind about the human element of that. That's actually all businesses in service of us, of humans, of our society and how we come together and to not forget that. And and I'm a very performance orientated person.
00:08:43
Speaker
I was a head down, drive forward, ambitious, aiming for success. And I had a coach. And I remember having great coaching conversations, which really helped me see my job beyond just performing and doing well.
00:08:58
Speaker
He was somebody I really respected and admired, had had a very successful career and then left to go into coaching. And I said to him, I just said, you know, why did you go into coaching? Because it kind of surprised me. i thought you were so successful.
00:09:10
Speaker
Why would you go and do something like coaching? um Because the way I measured success at that time. And he talked about it as he says, to me, you know, coaching is sacred space. It's when you go in behind the curtain and you're with a leader and you make an impact on a leader that then sends a ripple that impacts everybody that they will encounter that day, whether that's at home or at work.
00:09:32
Speaker
And it's just the way he talked about it I found it so compelling that it really kind of just changed my priorities and just made me think, oh, maybe there's more than just ambition and performing and being successful at work in that transactional way.
Coaching's Impact on Leadership Behaviors
00:09:45
Speaker
There's more to it And so he really opened the doors to that through my own experience of him as a coach. Yes. Yeah, that's a very interesting way to look at it.
00:09:56
Speaker
is It's the impact that you have on the person who then has impacts on other people as well. And, you know, coaching, you know when coaching started to be a thing, it was it was seen as this is the easy way to do.
00:10:11
Speaker
deal with someone who's a bit of a problem. yeah So if you were being coached, there was like, you've got performance issues. We don't want to invest in training. It's not working. So we'll give you a coach. And as somebody involved in HR, I'm an HR professional after all, it always seemed a little bit like...
00:10:26
Speaker
That's what the manager is supposed to do. But the manager is so engrossed in the command and control, the functionary side of management, that they haven't actually got the skills to manage that person who's actually not performing.
00:10:42
Speaker
And then we seem to have gone to a stage where coaching was given to those people who were identified as having potential to move forward in the organization, to to actually be more of a functionary, to produce more. and And the coaching was designed to enable them to be more productive from an already high level.
00:11:02
Speaker
What you seem to be talking about is coaching that is completely different. The coaching is much more universal, um opened up to everybody to be able to use. And you you talk about it not as a management skill, but as a leadership skill. Yeah.
00:11:19
Speaker
Yeah, and I think, I mean, that's a really interesting point around the progression. Because you're right, it used to be a lot about remedial, and and thank goodness it's moved away from that. I'm proud to say I don't coach like that. If somebody needs that, I'm not the person. But coaching those high performers, those people that companies want to retain, they want to develop, and they want to show them a pathway forward,
00:11:40
Speaker
within that organization And the reality is, is that when you get into coaching conversations, those things are important. But there is a progression that when you have those coaching conversations, you often typically touch on things like a person's beliefs.
00:11:58
Speaker
their values, their stories that they've interpreted and kind of understand themselves and the world around them and rethinking some of those things and really getting into that i sense of identity.
00:12:09
Speaker
And I remember I had one coaching client that I worked with and I know that's where coaching can go if that's where people want to go. but ah working with a ah client, 10, 12, you know, sessions over six to eight months.
00:12:21
Speaker
And we talked a lot about performance and their ability to work and lots of good topics and stuff. And as a coach, you meet people where they are. But i remember striking in our our last conversation, they were suddenly looking at, well, wait a second, who who am I beyond this job?
00:12:36
Speaker
Like if this job wasn't here, what would be left? you know And starting to get into those really deeper questions, i was like, oh, that's interesting. That's where he's gone at this point. And again, it's not something as a coach you you kind of insist or or force. It's just one of those, when people arrive, they they want to perform, they want to do well. And often the work corporate culture is providing this as a resource, but it just naturally leads you to the place of reflecting on who are you beyond this work?
00:13:01
Speaker
And when you really get a sense of, understanding those things and getting clarity on them, they will positively impact your work, but they'll have positive impact far beyond that as well.
00:13:13
Speaker
It makes me um remember with an element of um disappointment and a slight element of shame is that if you go to a party or you meet someone, like at at an event ah to do with the Calgary Stampede, you go to one of those Stampede breakfasts and you meet somebody new and you're introduced to someone, and the way in which you'll be introduced to them is, you know this is Michael, Michael is an HR professional.
00:13:41
Speaker
you you are your job title, you are the organization that you work in, derive an awful lot of social value, prestige, whatever words you want to use because of the work that we do.
00:13:53
Speaker
And although those words just sort of like tripped off your tongue in a very easy, casually Canadian type of way, what you're actually talking about there is really deep.
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, isn't it? Because an awful lot of people are their job title or they are, you know I am this when I go to work and when I go home, I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm a wife, I'm a mother, I'm whatever it is. We've always got something that we can...
00:14:21
Speaker
hide behind rather than actually being our true, I don't want to use buzzwords because I know you're not a fan of buzzwords, but some of the buzzwords that go around at the moment are, you our true authentic self.
00:14:34
Speaker
Whereas what you're talking about is just finding out who the individual is so that you can go to work and be yourself and But until you've found that out, you can't go and lead people or be led or whatever role you are doing in an organization. You can't do that until you've actually reached that point of understanding of yourself in the first place.
00:14:58
Speaker
Yeah, and I find like that... The interesting thing about our work is this great opportunity for it to be a catalyst, to look in the mirror and discover some of those things. And I know one of the things you talk a lot about is managing change.
00:15:11
Speaker
Like change makes us uncomfortable. And in coaching, what you help people do is to get comfortable in the uncomfortable. And when you're going through changes and you don't like what's going on or you're feeling all sorts of different things, emotions, you know, a coach is there to help you look at what do those things mean to you? what What is that about?
00:15:33
Speaker
So in a safe space to kind of discover how this is a place to grow. You know, and so that's the thing is about coaching. The objective of coaching isn't performance. It's about learning.
00:15:44
Speaker
It's about development. And that's why, like I write about in the leader as coach is the role of a leader is it's, yeah, there's job functions and performance that need to be done, but really I want to help Leaders see themselves as my primary job is to develop people through coaching so that they can grow and become something more. And yes, that'll lead them to success and work, but it's a matter of how do you facilitate those conversations? So making sure conversations are not just about the tactical thing that needs to be done. Yep. There might be something that needs to be done, but then how are you growing through that thing so that the next thing there's something new? Cause there's always something new to grow through.
00:16:20
Speaker
Just to pick up on something that you said there is that when coaching started, it was all about making someone better at their function. This is a an alternative to a training course.
00:16:34
Speaker
But what you're talking about, think, and to correct me if I'm wrong, but that coaching is not about coaching is not about development and any specific thing it's about learning and learning well and growth coaching is growth right there's a difference between growth and development yeah in many ways development is all development to me from listening to what you've said sounds as if development is something very specific you're developing a new skill and your competence all that sort of stuff
00:17:08
Speaker
growth is a little bit more holistic yeah a little bit less um limited but it it creates a it's the whole person all the things that you do in the coaching that what you're saying in in the book and and today is that coaching is about leading and is a leadership is like Here's a question for you, Ted.
00:17:36
Speaker
Is coaching a leadership skill or is leadership something that is connected to the coaching?
Is Coaching a Leadership Skill?
00:17:45
Speaker
Which way round does it go?
00:17:46
Speaker
That's a really good question. um you know I'm kind of thinking of the chicken and egg, right? like Which one is it? It did cause me to think of like when you talk about that growth and the importance of that. is so I'm an accredited coach with the International Coaching Federation.
00:18:00
Speaker
My credential is a ah master ah coaching credential, which is MCC. There's only 4% of coaches in the world have it. and so I've done a lot of coach training. 10 years I've spent on doing that. and so All coaches, accredited coaches, find...
00:18:15
Speaker
find They are accountable to subscribe and kind of do coaching according to the eight competencies, right? And the eighth competency is facilitating client growth.
00:18:25
Speaker
And so that comes back to that when people come in, typically how coaching works is they come in and, hey, I want to get coached on um a difficult employee. I'm having a hard time. I can't get them to perform. Okay, let's talk about that. And that's the topic that they want to explore.
00:18:40
Speaker
At the end of the coaching conversation, they will walk away with clarity and a plan and action steps for having a difficult conversation. That's what I'm accountable to do. I deliver that in coaching. Any coach does.
00:18:52
Speaker
But more importantly than that is the coach will ask the questions around, what have you learned from this conversation? How's that contribute to your growth? Like we know that coaching is not so much about the difficult employee. It's actually about how you're growing through this. And the difficult employee is a conduit, an opportunity for you to grow through it. And so it just comes back to making sure we don't lose sight as coaches that every conversation is the opportunity for this person to grow.
00:19:20
Speaker
Even the conversation with the the difficult employee yeah is an opportunity for that person to grow. Yes. And the coaching is it helps to facilitate that growth, which then enables someone to deal with the situation.
00:19:36
Speaker
There was something that you said a few minutes ago, which was like the the management of change and the role of coaching in change and the preparation of people for change through coaching. And it seemed that what you were talking about was getting people to understand themselves means that they will understand their baseline, the things that they will not do, the things that are sacrosanct, like those... um things you get in in hierarchy of needs and and all that sort of stuff, that this is what I need in order to feel safe, to feel comfortable, to know that I'm in the right place. And once you understand those yourself, then the other things, and I suppose your leader, your team colleagues also need to in understand you. These are the things that Michael won't do. These are things that Michael, are Michael's like bench line.
00:20:27
Speaker
But beyond that, you, once you, once you have, created that benchmark, that baseline for yourself, then sounds from what you were saying that you're going to be freer to experiment because you've got your safe zone.
00:20:44
Speaker
And you know who you are and what things are important to you and why they're important to you. But what it also does is it also helps you understand that that's the same ah thing that's happening for other people.
00:20:56
Speaker
And so how do you become curious to understand others? And one thing I often say is everybody's behavior makes sense to them. Now, may not make sense to you. It may not be good behavior, but it's there's some sort of inner story and logic of why they're behaving the way they are.
00:21:13
Speaker
And as leaders, it allows you to get away from that necessarily like confrontational thing around getting curious around why is that behavior making sense to them when it's unproductive? Let's talk about that.
00:21:23
Speaker
But when you know yourself better, I think you're better positioned. to have conversations with others to help them know themselves. Because at the end of the day, I think people want to be successful, productive, effective in what they're doing.
00:21:35
Speaker
And there's things that get in the way and they get in the way for all of us. And what coaching does is really help you get unstuck on those different areas. And then for me, it's just a natural next step for the leader to help other people get unstuck.
00:21:48
Speaker
And that's what I found so often in my coaching is that my coaching conversations almost always turn to, well, I need to do more of what you do. How do I do what you do? I need to ask better questions. If I ask people questions, that would help them figure these things out. And so it's a natural progression of getting coached to then say, maybe maybe I should use some of these coaching skills with the people that I lead as well. Yes, I get what you mean.
00:22:11
Speaker
It's like, if you want to be a great leader, get coached and grow. Give yourself a ah growth plan to grow to so you can understand yourself more.
00:22:23
Speaker
And then that will enable you to understand other people and encourage them to grow themselves. So much of all of these types of things is so easy to say and sometimes can be quite difficult to do.
00:22:37
Speaker
And that's why you've developed this Enzo tool as well,
The Enzo Coaching App Explained
00:22:41
Speaker
isn't it? Yeah, so I i find the the challenge with what I do is it's typically reserved and it's quite exclusive for higher level leaders, executives, people who make decisions that impact millions of dollars. It justifies the cost of coaching.
00:22:56
Speaker
So the ah ROI, that return on investment, works at higher levels of leadership. And I look at coaching and I go, no, this is a human skill. Everybody should have access to this. This is too important. So what Enzo is a, Enzo is a coach. It's done through my app, a coach with Sprout, where basically it asks you questions and does what I do, but it's accessible. Meaning you turn it on on your phone anytime and you can have a quick coaching conversation for 15 minutes and it helps you get unstuck typically in relationships.
00:23:25
Speaker
But I would say throw anything at Enzo. Enzo does a really good job of helping people get unstuck and it's all that. So to me, I don't think it replaces me as a coach. It, It enhances the quality of the conversations I have with people because people typically don't have conversations with me more than once every two or three weeks. Sometimes it's once a month, but people get stuck all the time.
00:23:47
Speaker
So it's meant to be that tool that every, you know, I've talked to people who are using it now or like nine o'clock at night, they have a business, they put their child down to sleep and they're like, now I got a few minutes, but now I feel stuck and I can't call somebody.
00:23:58
Speaker
They pull out Enzo Enzo starts asking them some questions. They tell them what I want. And all of a sudden they're experiencing coaching and it's amazing and powerful thing. And they don't need to wait until they have a meeting with me. And it makes it so accessible accessible because for coaching, the costs are typically often um inaccessible by most yes but enzo is one of those ways of putting yourself in a situation with the technology with the with your app and going through the process i suppose with enzo and
00:24:31
Speaker
With any process, you have to trust the process, but you have developed this so that it is ah as close as it can be to actually sitting down with you. But it's reinforcing um what people who are sitting down with you can can get. But it also works for people who haven't got that direct access to you once a month or whenever it will work for you.
00:24:58
Speaker
even if you haven't got a coach. But the key thing I suspect is that you've got to understand what the coaching process is and and buy into being coached. Yeah, and and the process is all outlined in the app, ah meaning it's it's a tool to um support learning coaching skills. And so in it, you see the model, you see the questions, there's a game in it to practice coaching where you and I can have a quick coaching conversation. You don't need to know coaching to be able to open the game and try it with me.
00:25:27
Speaker
But then what Enzo does is when you're learning coaching, so you're getting a model, you're getting the skills, you're seeing what it does. Often when you're in that, you're coaching other people in the program with you, but they're learning it as well. So they're doing a lot of things they shouldn't be doing.
00:25:41
Speaker
They're asking closed questions. They're starting to, well, have you thought of this? And they're giving advice. It's, well, that's not coaching. And so what Enzo does is Enzo demonstrates what coaching is in a in a pretty pure form and it doesn't make those mistakes.
00:25:55
Speaker
And so you get the experience. that I've had numerous people now in my in the program go, oh, I totally see what Enzo's doing and I see how I should do it and why should be doing it differently. But they really experience coaching in a powerful way. And then the next week when they're coaching and I'm watching them, ah giving them feedback and auditing them, it's amazing the progression that they make because they've had a couple you know, genuine, real conversations with Enzo that's helped them get what coaching is. And it just accelerates their learning. And that's, it's a learning tool for leaders.
Closing Remarks and Resources
00:26:25
Speaker
That's great. You know, I am always say that an episode of the Independent Minds should make people think. You've certainly given me an awful lot to think about, Ed. Thank you very much. i really appreciate your time today.
00:26:37
Speaker
Thank you. Well, thanks so much for having me. I've really appreciated the conversation and the opportunity to share this with more people. That's great. That's great. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Edward Temple, from Bright Wire Leadership, the author of The Leader as Coach and The Visionary and now Independent Mind behind the Sprout Coaching Model and the Enzo Coaching App.
00:27:07
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Ed Temple.
00:27:20
Speaker
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like Ed, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:27:33
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. The description also includes links to all of the websites and apps that have been mentioned in this episode of The Independent Minds, all of the offers and opportunities to purchase Ed's book, The Leader as Coach.
00:27:50
Speaker
oh That description is well worth reading. If you have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like ah and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:01
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. And remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
00:28:14
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.