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Leadership Is Not Enough– a conversation with author Dr James Chitwood
10 Plays5 days ago
An Operator’s Guide to a Performance Culture
Dr James Chitwood is an Army Veteran, former university president, and sales operations expert who helps organizations build systems that drive measurable performance.
In this episode of The Independent Minds James Chitwood and host Michael Millward explore the role of leadership in organisations.
They discuss
- How leadership and employee development is different in the military and the civilian environments.
- The dynamic between leadership and management
- How training and development activities can be most effectively delivered,
- Learning organisations
- The T.R.A.C model which is described in Leadership is not Enough - Training - Recognition - Accountability - Communication
- The role of training departments in organisations of all kinds
- How the education system can help organisations create employees who on a lifelong learning journey.
James concludes by introducing Michael to Bruno Boddington Chitwood.
More information about James Chitwood and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
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Buy Leadership Is Not Enough: An Operator’s Guide to a Performance Culture by Dr James Chitwood at Amazon
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Transcript
Introduction to Independent Minds Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencastr Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida.
Guest Introduction: Dr. James Chitwood
00:00:28
Speaker
Today I'm going to be discussing the processes associated with leadership with Dr. James Chitwood who is the author of Leadership Is Not Enough.
00:00:40
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, the all-in-one podcasting platform where you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major
Zencastr: A Podcaster's Tool
00:00:54
Speaker
platforms.
00:00:54
Speaker
Zencastr really does make making content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using zencastr visit Zencaster, visit zencaster.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code.
00:01:07
Speaker
All the details are in the description. Now that I've told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one.
Dr. Chitwood's Career Background
00:01:15
Speaker
One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:21
Speaker
As with every episode of the Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Today, my guest Independent Mind is Dr. James Chitwood.
00:01:34
Speaker
Dr. Chitwood is a military veteran who also has a doctorate in organizational leadership.
Integrating Technology and Human Efficiency
00:01:40
Speaker
He joined the army to test his body and undertook a doctorate to test his mind.
00:01:46
Speaker
James has over 20 years experience in startups, at organizational and department levels, as well as in turnaround situations. He likes to say that he has the DNA of a salesperson and the mind of an operations expert.
00:02:01
Speaker
We will see. His research has enabled him to see the linkage between technological system efficiencies and human behavioral efficiencies. At his core, James believes that systems and processes can be put in place that will create a performance culture.
00:02:19
Speaker
James is based in Naperville, Illinois, which is 28 miles west of Chicago. Naperville consistently ranks as a top community in the United States, which means that Naperville should be on my list of places to visit.
00:02:33
Speaker
When I do, I will be sure to make my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club because that is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, holidays and all sorts of other travel related purchases.
00:02:47
Speaker
There is a link and a membership discount code in the description.
Path to Consulting and Book Writing
00:02:51
Speaker
Now that I've paid the bill, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds. Hello, James. Hello, Michael.
00:02:57
Speaker
Could we please start with you giving me a little bit of an introduction, a summary of your career and how you came to write this book, Leadership Is Not Enough? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I mean, you did a great summary. Thank you so much. You know, my career has it started in higher education.
00:03:12
Speaker
I've been a university president, a professor, administrator, and then I left there to go into the technology space and the startup space and was involved in turnarounds.
00:03:23
Speaker
As an operator, you know i would join an organization and I would build an operation. And the thing about a good operation is once it's built, you don't need the high level leader who created it to run it anymore. You can hire somebody at a 60% pay cut, a 40% pay cut, and they can they could run it quite well. And so I continued to do what my wife liked to say, which was operationalizing myself out of a job. And I knew that that's what was doing.
00:03:50
Speaker
So I just did it over and over. And then the last one, I did it nine months. And my wife looks at and she's like, okay, Jim, it's been nine months and I know this is what you're doing. And super cool if that's what you want to do, but you just keep operationalizing yourself out of a job.
00:04:03
Speaker
Why don't you just go and do, but you know, be a consultant and and and and offer your expertise to the world. And she'd been, you know, I married up. Hey, there's a simple fact, right? Simple fact that every man has to acknowledge the fact that we all marry up. Yeah, if we're smart, we do.
00:04:17
Speaker
And so I finally took her advice and decided, okay, if I'm going to give to the world, what what do I have to give? Well, I have a model that's in my head that I've been implementing.
00:04:28
Speaker
Why don't I just take it out of my brain, put it to paper and give it to the world? And so that's what I decided to do You know, my book, Michael, Leadership is Not Enough. The subtitle is An Operator's Guide to a Performance Culture. And it's really what it is. It's an op smang.
00:04:42
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It's a clearly articulated what you can do. um So that's what brought me here really is my my intention to give to the world and hopefully while I'm make while i'm at it make my daily bread along the way.
00:04:55
Speaker
And it is a very good read. Thank you, sir. I must admit, I'm holding it at the moment.
Military vs. Civilian Leadership
00:04:59
Speaker
Before your corporate career, you were in the military. So what's it like to move from the military into civilian careers and the difference between the leadership in the two environments?
00:05:11
Speaker
Well, you know, the interesting thing is people are really people. Whether you've got a uniform on or not, the the characteristics of what makes a human a human, that that transcends the stars and stripes on someone's lapel.
00:05:23
Speaker
What I find is really the bigger difference is the environment that they're working in The military leader is far less the autocrat that the world thinks they are than the civilian leader is.
00:05:36
Speaker
The reason for that is because the military is such a strong system. The leader really doesn't have to exert a lot of influence to make the system keep working. And in the civilian world, it's drastically different where more often than not good solid systems are not in place. And so the leader really has to get out there more.
00:05:55
Speaker
exerting influence perspective than than then has to happen in the military. It's part of that because every officer in the military has been through the same training as every other officer in the military. There is a ah role model for every officer who's the leader, every NCO, there is a role model. They're all operating to the same model of leadership.
00:06:18
Speaker
And so people can be very comfortable in knowing where they sit within the hierarchy, what their role is, what somebody else's role is and that structure provides comfort and confidence.
00:06:29
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Very well said, Michael. And I would add to that, I see the military as a training organization. Few people who've ever been in the military can grasp that concept, but really that's what it is
Training and Continuous Improvement in the Military
00:06:41
Speaker
it is. It is either preparing for a mission, it is doing a mission, or it is reviewing the mission and looking for opportunities to improve.
00:06:50
Speaker
It is a consistent learning organization, constantly focused on training. There is always change in the military. Change is the cultural norm. um Why? Because if you're learning organization, then you have to accept that after you do something, you will find a way to improve it.
00:07:09
Speaker
And if you're finding a way to improve it, well, now you've got to go through a change management. a sequence, something your organization is adept at ah doing. And so the military is really focused on that consistent change management as a learning organization. And you find in learning organizations that the leadership looks at it differently because they realize that they're not the key to the success.
00:07:34
Speaker
The organization is the key to success and they need to consistently focus on improving the organization, not their own position of power. Ooh, that that's an interesting thing to say. You've got all sorts of things firing off in my head about what you've just said.
00:07:50
Speaker
One, the military is a consistently changing, developing learning organization. And part of that I think is because you never see a job advertisement for Colonel.
00:08:01
Speaker
People enter at a particular level and then it's down to training and development as to where that person can take their career. yes Every arm of the military develops its own.
00:08:14
Speaker
Whereas in the civilian world, If an organization wants a new managing director, they will go and poach one from somewhere else.
Internal vs. External Leadership Development
00:08:22
Speaker
yeah And so training isn't necessarily as important.
00:08:26
Speaker
And I see that as the greatest disservice to the entire cadre of leadership in that organization. Yes. A disservice to the long-term performance of that organization.
00:08:37
Speaker
In the military, the general, the top four-star general, hit the pay differential between that human, And the lowest price employee is so small compared to the pay differential of a CEO to a low line employee in a publicly traded company.
00:08:55
Speaker
But the difference in pay between people at the top and the bottom of organizations is little issue in every country. But when you put it like that, it does really, brings it home that you don't really need to have huge pay differentials in order to create an organization that works.
00:09:12
Speaker
In order to write... When you said leaders should focus on the development of the organization, organizations don't really exist, they exist on paper.
Importance of Management Training
00:09:20
Speaker
When you talk about the development of the organization, the organization is the people in that organization, the stakeholders and all the different types, whether they're customers, employees, contractors, suppliers, whoever they are, every one of them needs to be developed in order to make sure that as a whole, when those people all come together, we can talk about an organization.
00:09:41
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And then in it and it is the development of those people, Michael, like, you know, your example of the managing director and then going and poaching it from someone else when they have an entire cadre of qualified people one step down, they just need the training to come up. The most important position in an organization to me is that frontline manager.
00:10:02
Speaker
And that position rarely gets training on how to be a manager. People are just good at a job, so they get promoted to be a manager. And they have no idea how to manage people.
00:10:13
Speaker
the The most important position has 85% of the time, absolutely no training. And they're just expected to do it. And that's where the gap occurs. And organizations that develop that training, it's not just how to be a manager. It's also how to be a manager in our culture, right? Because every culture is different. We use this word culture and it is...
00:10:37
Speaker
an entire broad spectrum of cultures of environments, right? From the cutthroat finance industry, which that is their culture. And that's okay. And the people that go in it, they go in it knowing it, or they find out within three months, and then, they yes you know, and then you can, you know, and so that's one end of a bell curve, and it is okay, that's their culture, right? And so the key is,
00:11:04
Speaker
to train people not only how to be a manager, but how to manage in our culture, and then how to be a director, and then how to be a VP, right? And then how to be an executive, right? And so it's when you develop the training, you can ensure that every person in that job is trained to do that job. Not only the functional elements of how to do it, but the cultural elements as well. Yes.
00:11:29
Speaker
one of the things I noticed then was that you, you weren't talking about leadership. You were talking about managers and different types of management job titles. Because I don't think we use the word manager
Introducing the TRACK Model
00:11:40
Speaker
enough. I, in full transparency, I get kind of bothered by the $74 billion global industry that talks leadership, leadership, leadership. Well,
00:11:49
Speaker
Let's talk about how to have a difficult conversation with an employee, right? That's a management job. So did I define the two as yes, everybody can be a leader.
00:11:59
Speaker
Absolutely. I'm not trying to say anything about that. What I'm saying is management and leadership are not the same. We do not give enough value to somebody just being a manager. And I use the word just in quotation marks there. Just being a man, a good manager, right?
00:12:15
Speaker
I describe it as this management is getting a person to do a job. Leadership is getting them to want to do that. Can the two be interwined? Absolutely. A good manager should be a great leader, but they got start at being a good manager.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yes, I can see what you mean. The idea of management as something that has been undervalued or devalued by, like you say, an industry that wants to talk about being a leader, be a leader.
00:12:45
Speaker
Manager, director, vice president is a job title, but um leadership is a role. Anyone can be a leader. You don't actually need to be in a management role to provide leadership in a situation. Correct.
00:12:58
Speaker
Absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. We don't give enough credence to it. And honestly, if I'm going to put on a cynical hat, which I wear underneath my good hat all the time, I believe it's a scapegoat from many organizations that they don't have to develop their people. They don't have to provide training departments. They don't have to do all that yeah because you just have to be a better leader of yourself.
00:13:22
Speaker
And if you did that and you acted in all this altruistic way, Well, then if everybody was self leading, wouldn't need managers and we wouldn't need training departments and they don't want to pay for training departments. Anyways, it's the first thing that gets cut from an organization. And it's the most ridiculous thing in the world to cut, in my opinion. There's nothing more important than the development of training of your employees all the way up the chain of command.
00:13:44
Speaker
Which takes us back to that military situation where they have to train always. people from the point where they enter to the the limit of their potential. yeah Any type of organization can save an awful lot of money by developing its own people. Yeah, the math is really simple. I was just talking to a president the other day who luckily she was the CFO, so she gets the math, right? And she was talking about wanting to you know pay for her people's development. And she said, yeah, the board is pushing back. I said, well, have you shown them the cost of turnover? yeah If you show the cost of turnover,
00:14:19
Speaker
The math is really simple. It is far cheaper to develop your people than replace them. I mean, and that's just simple, simple, simple math. you don't You don't need strong math to show the value of developing your employees.
00:14:34
Speaker
far exceeds the expense of of replacing them. Yes. But developing them is something that many organizations haven't quite got a handle on it. They can provide the the statutory training courses, the things you need to do.
00:14:49
Speaker
But you talked about culture. You've got to do it within the context of the organization. Mm-hmm. And every organization is different. So if you are going to hire a manager from outside, of the key parts of their induction onboarding process is to unlearn the culture of the previous organization. Yeah, very
Military Cultural Diversity
00:15:11
Speaker
much so. You could almost say, I suppose, if you move from one division of an organization to another division, the core of the culture will be very similar. But every part of an organization will be slightly different as well.
00:15:23
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you can see that in the military too. Like it's a really good example. You know, everybody thinks the military is one culture. It's not. Your combat units, your intelligence units, your maintenance units, your supply units, your health units, they all operate with a slightly different culture.
00:15:40
Speaker
And that's completely known in the military that yes, we all wear the same uniform. And yeah, we all wear the same patch on our shoulders. And yet we're going to approach this slightly differently based upon what is our primary purpose in the overall military organization. Yes.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah. I'm holding leadership is not enough. Very tactile book.
Social Bonding Through TRACK
00:16:02
Speaker
One of the key parts of the book is the model, the track model, T R A C training recognition, accountability and communication.
00:16:12
Speaker
But when you talk about leadership and management, you're talking about it within the context almost of this model that that starts with training. and recognition and communication.
00:16:25
Speaker
It's all about getting the role of managers, the role of leaders to foster or generate different types of performance from individuals and teams. So the training ah part of the track model, as I suppose, is fairly self-evident. You identify what people need to learn. You give them the information to ensure that they can learn, let them practice, et cetera, et cetera.
00:16:47
Speaker
But the other three elements, the recognition, explain to what that that aspect of this model means. Sure. If if you mind if you don't mind, I'm not going to change the question a little. I hope it might provide better illumination. You know, it actually doesn't start with training. It starts with accountability.
00:17:03
Speaker
It starts with very, very clear metrics for every employee that are reviewed regularly. Yes. Right. Every employee needs to know how they're being held accountable.
00:17:15
Speaker
Right. It needs to be transparent. The goals need to be achievable. Should they be stretchable? Sure. They need to be achievable. Right. So the whole SMART goal and all that. Right. So every employee needs to have key metrics that they are held accountable to, that they fully understand at the end of the year how they're going to be held accountable. and That should be reviewed regularly. and And then along the way, if they are struggling to hit their ah achievement goals, well, now we bring in training to help them improve their performance.
00:17:45
Speaker
Right. And then the question becomes, who provides the training? So I'm a really big believer in a training department. To me, the training department is really more of an instructional design department.
00:17:55
Speaker
They are your experts in how to develop training. The subject matter experts for that are the individual employees along the different departments and divisions within the organization.
00:18:09
Speaker
So back to our example, we have two employees in the exact same team. One of them's hitting it out the park. The other one's not. So the one that's not needs to have training in order improve their performance. Right. And so now training is layered in it to provide it. So I believe that that training is provided by that coworker or it's an exceptional person out of another department.
00:18:30
Speaker
Why? Because when an employee, and this is where, this is where my model starts getting complex because an employee who gives to another benefits from the act of giving.
00:18:42
Speaker
Right. We all know that when we give to someone else, we feel lifted up. It's just part of the beauty of human nature when we serve each other. So when we have an employee who's serving another, their social bond is growing because they are now giving to each other. They are sharing in this experience.
00:19:00
Speaker
The one employee is being recognized for their exceptional performance by now training another person. And so the bond between them grows, the recognition of this individual is felt intrinsically, you can also find a way to reward them in a more material way, right? My preference is have both, right? Just the innate nature of giving is solid.
00:19:24
Speaker
Some material roof reward is is is is always appreciated, right? So now we've got training, accountability, and recognition all flowing together in this example. And communication is that key that holds it all together, right?
00:19:37
Speaker
How do we find out that this employee isn't doing well? Again, back to the key metrics that are reviewed in a regular process that is part of the one-on-one meeting, which I call a 50-50 meeting, right? And so it is all encompassed as one fluid experience. When I describe my model, I don't use the word pillars. I'm sure in your very extensive career, Michael, you've heard many consultants, many organizations talk about, well, here are the pillars that are uphold your culture. I don't like the word pillars because to me, pillars pillars are awesome.
00:20:12
Speaker
They're strong, they're independent, and they do not touch. And that's why I use the word elements because elements come together in a very fluid way to make something better.
00:20:23
Speaker
yes So that's why I use the word elements to describe my model, because it's very fluid which one of those four were emphasizing at any one given time. My model is not rocket science.
00:20:37
Speaker
what's What's unique about it is seeing them as a single strategy. And when you do that, you would never cut your training department. Because you recognize that if you cut your training department, you are cutting your ability to hold people accountable and improve their performance. You are cutting your ability to recognize star employees.
00:20:56
Speaker
You are harming your your organization's ability to create social bonding, right? And so all of this is seen as one strategy, then it's all part of one performance strategy.
00:21:08
Speaker
That's very interesting. Thank you. I was thinking, well, I have run training departments on a global basis. Yeah, I can buy into everything that you have just said about the track model and the role of the training departments in it.
00:21:22
Speaker
Thank you, sir. Your feedback is some of the feedback that is most powerful to me. I've had lots of people give me good feedback, but to have an HR executive with your global experience talking to me from the other side of the pond, it just makes me feel good. So thank you, sir, because it is your expertise. You've run across a lot of consultants in this space, my friend.
00:21:42
Speaker
And so, and you've read a lot of books ah in this space. So, you know, I just appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Shift in Education Focus
00:21:50
Speaker
Thank you. I appreciate that. I buy into what you've just said about the role of training departments within organizations.
00:21:58
Speaker
And the question that is like banging in the on the inside of my head is like, so why don't more training departments get it? What was it that we weren't doing that would have helped us get this better? o but There's something that is that is missing from training departments which stops them from being able to fulfill this type of role.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yeah, Michael, i don't I don't actually think it's missing from training departments. I think it's missing from ethos of organizations today. we go back 100 years, everybody graduated with a bachelor's degree in liberal arts.
00:22:37
Speaker
Bachelor's degrees were not skill set degrees. They were thinking degrees. It was at the master's level where people specialized. And um yes, vocational, technical, but that there wasn't a quote unquote associate's degree assigned to that. It was, I now know how to weld, do all these other skill traits bachelors was really a, can I think critically? Yes.
00:22:59
Speaker
And that's what organizations wanted, right? Like if you ask an organization today, what do you want out of a brand new college grad? They're going to say, I want somebody who can think critically. I want somebody who can take disparate bits of information, put them into, into a, into a concise logic, be able to debate it, be able to support it and be able to build a project plan off it. Right. Um, be able to work in teams, be able to communicate, right.
00:23:22
Speaker
Um, these are all things that the liberal arts education gives. And so what happened was organizations. When they hired a college grad, they were hiring that person for their ability to think they taught them the job, right?
00:23:38
Speaker
They taught them how to do things. And so organizations understood that training was part of their ethos. They would bring fresh minds that could think critically and do all these awesome, you know, intellectual exercises and they would then teach them the job.
00:23:55
Speaker
And then somewhere along the way, we started looking at bachelor's degrees as skilled degree and went away from critical thinking degrees. and And I think we've lost our way.
00:24:07
Speaker
We could do a whole another episode of the Independent Minds on this, but yeah we know that more and more work is going to be automated and it'd be more difficult to get the the sort of jobs that I started in when I started work where you know it was like learn how to use the photocopier, do all the running around.
00:24:25
Speaker
and there was masses and masses of training here and and being, what have you learned today type of sessions. Those won't be around because a computer will be doing much much of the work that I did when I started my career in HR. Yeah, very much so.
00:24:41
Speaker
the The training programs don't exist, but what we need to do is almost like wonder about, okay, what is the role of education and in preparing people for work so that then they're on a lifelong learning journey whether that is at work or away from work. We end up with employees joining organizations, knowing that one of their key accountable objectives is to constantly be learning.
00:25:09
Speaker
Absolutely. and And it's fascinating to me. There's a small number of growing schools that are, I say, going back to the basics. I say going back to the original. And they are doing exactly what we're discussing, which is,
00:25:24
Speaker
rethinking what a degree is for. And in my opinion, what they're really doing is rewinding the clock to the foundation of what a degree was for, which was to teach people, you know, again, critical thinking, disparate information, cohesive thought, you know, debatable perspectives, project plans, working in teams, good communication, right?
00:25:43
Speaker
How to be an intellectual, how to think, right? Yes. Yes. Well, you've certainly got me thinking today, you know James. its The time has flown. It's been very, very interesting.
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:25:55
Speaker
Thank you for helping me make such an interesting episode of The Independent Minds. I hope we will have the opportunity to pick this discussion up again thank you in the future. Thank you, sir. My pleasure. Thank you.
00:26:06
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, James Chitwood, the author of Leadership Is Not Enough.
00:26:17
Speaker
You can find out more information about both of us at abeceda.co.uk. There is a link in the description alongside links to James's websites and opportunities to purchase Leadership Is Not Enough.
00:26:29
Speaker
I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to James. If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like James, you have something very interesting to say, Matchmaker is where matches of great guests and great hosts are made.
00:26:46
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. I've got one more question for you, please, James. Yes, sir. What is the name of your dog? His name is Bruno Boddington Chitwerger.
00:26:58
Speaker
ah Bruno Buddington-Chipwood is a snorer, isn't he? Do you know hear him? Yes. Oh my gosh. He sleeps on my desk. He's my best friend. I mean, wherever we're ever worth together, he's my bud. What sort of dog is Bruno?
00:27:13
Speaker
He's an English bulldog. Oh, well, that perfectly explains the snoring then. yeah you wouldn't You wouldn't take one of those on a sniper sort of secret service mission, would you? Not so much. No, no. No, he is he has a lot of value.
00:27:29
Speaker
Being stealth is not one of them.
00:27:35
Speaker
Well, thank you to you for a really interesting conversation and to to Bruno for the background noises as well. It's been really brilliant. Thank you very Sorry about that. No problem at all. No problem at all.
00:27:46
Speaker
If you're listening to the independent minds on your smartphone, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data. So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering.
00:28:00
Speaker
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00:28:12
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I am sure you have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds and the contribution from Bruno. So please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:24
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