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Serenity in Leadership – a conversation with Thom Dennis
0 Playsin 9 hours
Leadership the calm, peaceful and untroubled way creating time to absorb a situation and think.
Thom Dennis is a former Royal Marines officer who became a cultural change consultant and executive coach.
Thom developed Serenity in Leadership, an approach to leadership that aims to provide leaders with a greater understanding of themselves and free them from the constraints of conventional approaches so they can lead in a more authentic and engaging way.
In an episode of The Independent Minds recorded during the reign of Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, Thom and host Michael Millward explore Serenity in Leadership. Their conversation covers
- The feminine and masculine aspects of leadership
- Conventional expectations of leaders
- The importance of self-awareness for leaders
- How, regardless of our gender, we all have feminine and masculine aspects to our personalities
- How attempts to achieve serenity are impacted by these two sides of our personality
- How these different aspects of our personality impact the way women are treated by men.
- The challenges woman face when leading at work.
- Challenges of leading home workers
More information about Thom Dennis and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
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Transcript
Introduction to Independent Minds
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:21
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysseedah. Today, i am
Introduction to Tom Dennis and Zencastr
00:00:28
Speaker
joined by Tom Dennis, who has developed a new approach to leadership, which he is calling Serenity in Leadership.
00:00:36
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, the all-in-one podcasting platform where you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms. Zencastr really does make making content so easy.
00:00:55
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code. All the details are in the description.
00:01:05
Speaker
Now that I've told you how wonderful Zencastr is when making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading, and subscribing to.
00:01:18
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Now it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds.
00:01:29
Speaker
Hello,
Tom Dennis: Career Journey
00:01:30
Speaker
Tom. Hi, Michael. It's great to be here. Thank you. Thank you very much. Could we start, please, by you telling us a little bit about your history So that's a big question. I'm getting on in years now.
00:01:42
Speaker
okay My father was an engineer. And so I i started off on the shop floor of ah an engineering factory, which was, I learned an awful lot, not just about engineering, but how to manage things and also the power of the unions in those days.
00:01:57
Speaker
i yeah i became a trainee airline pilot. And then i was thrown out when I scared my instructors too much. I dread to think how you did that. We'll talk about that another day, i think.
00:02:13
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's a long story. But anyway, I went into the rubber industry and i i just was doing that because it was hard. It was dirty. It was well paid, which enabled me to carry on flying. I was determined to get my my private pilot's license. After a while, they wanted to train me in all sorts of things, which actually completely turned me off from the scientific point of view. and One day, I just ah decided to join the Royal Marines. at Some of my friends who joined the Marines and came back completely transformed people.
00:02:44
Speaker
and not just physically, but also mentally. um And that really attracted me. So i i applied, I joined, I passed the the Green Berrien, the commando course, and spent 17 years traveling around and um doing all sorts of varied and fascinating and sometimes quite scary things.
00:03:04
Speaker
I retired really at the end of the first Gulf War when I'd i'd had a ah fight with ah a minister in the Ministry of Defense who opinions about what he wanted to say in the House of Commons. And he was looking for my backing from a research point of view. And i I couldn't give it to him because it was just made up stuff. And so i thought my allegiance is to the Queen, not the government. Yes.
00:03:26
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And so I left.
Transition to Leadership Coaching
00:03:29
Speaker
Then began a um ah long road of of learning to coach ah because I'd been coaching, although it wasn't so that wasn't the title, you know ah ah the Royal Novel College of Greenwich, which is my last posting, which and now, of course, is the University of Greenwich. It started the journey of... I went to university, did a master's, and and really explored and at three levels, at an individual, a group, an organizational level,
00:03:58
Speaker
about culture and change, um coaching and facilitation. really You brought together the academic and the work experience and the military experience into one. So it's not a common set of qualifications and experiences. it's that There's an element of something that's quite unique about it. And that then led you down another path.
00:04:21
Speaker
Yes, doing the master's degree was incredibly challenging because it was a ah very humanistic, oriented program. And know I'd come out out of the Marines and I was very sure about what I knew.
00:04:34
Speaker
the experience of the course was to prove to me that I actually didn't really know anything. It was a very bumpy road, i a very healthy road, but a very bumpy one. Essentially, it's all a learning experience.
00:04:44
Speaker
So, yeah. Yes, if you have the right attitude towards it, every day is a school day for definite. Yes, but then that's what life is if you see it in that light. How did all of this combine to lead you to the creation of serenity in leadership?
00:05:00
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The
Concept of Serenity in Leadership
00:05:01
Speaker
short version of the story really is that i'd I'd been doing a lot of self-exploration on retreats in all sorts of places around the world. And um I came out of a ah darkness retreat in India and really the whole feeling of the feminine and and how the feminine has evolved has been suppressed in society and in organizations, both in men and women. and um And so what was it looking forward that we needed in leadership that we really didn't have at the moment, at that time? And it seemed to me it it was the quiet mind.
00:05:39
Speaker
It was the ability to take a step back, however chaotic and complex things were, as a leader to give yourself the space to just be and allow inner wisdom to come through and and enable you to make actually much better decisions overall. So it was that serenity that I felt was so missing and so needed, and hence serenity in leadership. Yes, it's ah just listening to you there makes me think.
Traditional vs. Reflective Leadership
00:06:12
Speaker
As a leader, you'll very often, whether you're whether you're a supervisor, manager, Whatever the job title is, when you're in a leadership role, the perception that people have of what a leadership leader should do and the perception you have of yourself when you're in a leadership role is very much that you've got to have the answer straight away.
00:06:33
Speaker
So when it comes to you with a question, the last thing you should say is, I don't know, or we'll need to investigate, or I need to have a think about that. You're supposed to know immediately exactly the right thing. You can't go back five minutes later and say, no, we need to do something different. Yes, I agree with you. The That element of taking the time to think a question or a problem or a challenge through and reach a ah conclusion calmly rather than in a panic is actually, yeah, you're right. It is missing from the way in which we as managers, leaders, call us what you will, actually operate.
00:07:16
Speaker
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of levels in that because you know sometimes you do have to make ah fast decisions. um you know If the house is burning down. Oh, yes. if If there's a fire, I don't want you to ask to start wondering where might the fire exit be. I would just want everyone to like, yeah this is what we're doing. Let's do it now. Yes, definitely. In some situations, you do need to make an instant decision, but hopefully not too many situations.
00:07:47
Speaker
Yes, but I mean, I had a graphic example of this when I i was running an offsite in Houston one day. it was a very, very, very safety conscious organization. So we we actually decided to to rehearse the um you know if if there was some sort of emergency so that people would know where the exits were and so on.
00:08:07
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So everybody went towards the exit door and the person leading... who wasn't designated leader or anything, just walked and he missed the turning and everybody just followed him.
00:08:21
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And there's this long line of people completely lost in the kitchens and all sorts of things. And it it is that that classic moment of, well, yeah, um you need the presence of mind if you're going to be leading to and And also, if you're not the the one up front, there's still a responsibility to question sometimes to say, well, hang on a minute, is this the right way? The the title gives people an authority um that we don't generally argue with, just accept. It's a bit like somebody in a white coat, for example. We we automatically assume that they're qualified and clever. We will take their word for it.
00:09:06
Speaker
rather than saying, okay, well, you've given me your diagnosis, which I'm not really happy with. So let's get a second second opinion. It's very interesting, this idea of of taking a step back and then applying it into the various different situations where people are called called upon to be leaders and show leadership itself.
00:09:28
Speaker
One of the things that you mentioned was about femininity in leadership. And I was wondering, how is that different from leadership? what's
Masculine vs. Feminine Leadership Traits
00:09:39
Speaker
What's the element of the femininity in in the things that you talk about?
00:09:43
Speaker
Well, I would say it's the feminine rather than femininity. These are very these are very particular terms. You know, quite often when I'm talking with a group of women, and the moment I say, well, for instance, confidence is a masculine trait, they immediately say, well, hang on a minute, I'm confident.
00:10:02
Speaker
And the answer is, yes, you are. And that's part of your masculine. We all have a masculine and a feminine. yin and the yang. Or the the Shiva and the Shakti, were however you like. Essentially, we're we're talking the the same sort of paradigm under different headings.
00:10:19
Speaker
that There are sort of reasonably acknowledged traits of the masculine and the feminine. There's the positive aspects and there are the negative aspects. And you call them negative or wounded or dysfunctional.
00:10:34
Speaker
I tend to say dysfunctional, but I mean, that may be a ah ah bit sort of heavy. But in the the masculine, there's there's confidence and there's inner strength, responsibility, focus, logic, stability, direction.
00:10:49
Speaker
In the feminine, you'll have kindness, intuition, creativity, feeling, stillness, sensitivity, emotion. know Whereas the masculine, the opposite that might be discipline. or Yes. Let me stop you there just for a moment because those two sets of descriptors, it's see it feels as if the words that you've used to describe the masculine are quite inward-looking,
00:11:18
Speaker
And the ones you've used to describe femininity are about, well, outward going, the interactions with people. It's interesting you say that way because typically that one would say the the reverse, that actually the feminine qualities are inward, like intuition, nurturing, tenderness, and the outward ones are the masculine, which is going out into um showing their focus their confidence, setting the direction, um setting boundaries, being assertive.
00:11:49
Speaker
well one would normally see them outward going masculine and the inward looking feminine. I was interpreting them from the perspective that the the masculine ones you were using was were almost like, I am going to do this.
00:12:04
Speaker
I am doing something. I am doing something. And the feminine ones felt more as if they were the intuition and all those sorts things were about, we are going to do something.
00:12:16
Speaker
Have I misunderstood I wouldn't put it quite like that to say it's the the the the feminine has a that's stillness and unseenness in a way.
00:12:29
Speaker
I mean, perhaps it helps to if you look at the sort of the slightly more dysfunctional side where, you know, things are emphasized, the dysfunctional masculine, you get dominance, aggression, control.
00:12:42
Speaker
competition, confrontation. Whereas in the the the the dysfunctional feminine, you you've got powerlessness, weakness, manipulation, withholding,
00:12:54
Speaker
um neediness, codependency. Is it the femininity in leadership is more closely linked to the serenity in leadership? But if we understand more about the femininity in leadership, we have more of a chance of creating that serenity in leadership.
00:13:14
Speaker
Well, yes, because it is stillness, it's compassion, it's empathy, the intuitive and and so on. so these are the things that the leader making the decision in the moment and off we go Whereas actually the feminine might just say, well, the problem that you're trying to solve, is it actually the problem? Right. We're trying to cure the symptom or we're trying to remedy the symptoms rather than cure the cause.
00:13:42
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. yeah and And, you know, the the masculine is very much about let's do it. If there's a problem or if if there's something they're presenting, i've got to I've got to put it right. I've got to i've got to deal with it.
00:13:55
Speaker
And actually sort of follow down that that that road of thinking. you You know, a lot of... Women would say, you know, if only you'd just listen to me. I didn't ask you to solve a problem.
00:14:07
Speaker
I just wanted you to hear that i have this on my mind. And when actually you've listened to me and I've expressed it, I'll be fine. You don't need to do anything. Yes, I've got a little guilty voice on my shoulder identifying that that may be something that I do once in a while.
00:14:29
Speaker
Other people may think I do it more often than I do, but I definitely do it once in a while. At the moment, what we could say within many, many organizations around the world, the dominant leadership style would be the masculine leadership style. The masculinity is comes out because in most organizations, the leadership team, will be the majority of them will be men.
00:14:58
Speaker
Would that be fair to conclude? Yeah, I'd go further because a lot of the organizations may have women at the top, but the the fight that they've had to get there has meant that they've had suppress a lot of their goodness, which is feminine.
00:15:13
Speaker
right And so in a lot of boardrooms, even when there are women there, ah you're not getting the full benefit of the feminine. Because in order to be successful, you have to comply with the dominant leadership style, which actually means they have to suppress the femininity of their leadership style to emphasize the masculinity of their leadership style. Correct. Which perhaps is where the saying that many people say, in order to be as successful as a man, a woman has to work twice as hard. But the working twice as hard is in some ways converting themselves to something which is not a natural way of working. So you have to work twice as hard when you're not being an authentic version of yourself, so to speak. If you have the opportunity to be authentic, then you bring something that is different to what the other person is bringing to the table. Yes, and at the same time, a lot of men look at that, what the woman is bringing, and they disdain it, they discard it. yes
00:16:21
Speaker
Which is why so one of the reasons why so many women find themselves being talked over or talked down to. And then they're not accorded the same level of respect that they deserve.
Impact of Gender and Remote Work on Leadership
00:16:33
Speaker
And that gets us into a bigger conversation about the the fear and the disdain that the majority have for the minority.
00:16:42
Speaker
Yes, because minorities can can be all sorts of different characteristics. But in this particular context, is it that the the woman who has made herself successful by playing the game, so to speak, and emphasizing the masculinity in the way in which she works, not being masculine, but emphasizing the masculinity aspects of her leadership style, for example, by trying to be or presenting herself in in a way that is more masculine than the men are comfortable with actually causes the problem? I'm not sure about that. Okay. If a woman can fit in, you know, it's it's like, are you going to go for a drink after work?
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah. You know, i used to a lot of work in the city. ah It's not quite the same now as it was then. But in order to fit in, you've got to conform. And that's a typical human trait.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yes. It's not so much that it's unacceptable not to conform, but by not conforming, you lose out on opportunities. People are working from home and people who are going into the office. If you've got a ah hybrid call where some of the people are in the office and some of the people are at home, at the end of the meeting, the people who are at home go and do whatever they've got to do go in the kitchen, make the make a tea, look after the children, whatever.
00:18:02
Speaker
Whereas the ones who've been in the office might gather around the the the coffee machine and carry on the conversation. So this is a very difficult balancing act that organizations have got to navigate. yeah And actually, typically, there are more women staying at home than men now.
00:18:22
Speaker
So it's an added complication process. andneath The gender roles, because women traditionally have the childcare responsibilities, although I know an increasing number of men who have taken on that responsibility. But because they're not in the meeting location, they've dialed in remotely. There are other meetings that are happening in the corridor. People are coming up with ideas outside the meeting. And that means that those may get discussed more and the the next meeting is the one where the decision is made rather than the idea and that is is presented and discussed and because you haven't been in the corridor or around the car machine or at lunch you are likely to miss out on that i totally get that i totally get that there is a an issue
00:19:11
Speaker
for organizations of all types of how they manage the differences between those ah ways of attending meetings, ways of participating, ways of being part of the decision-making process. And this idea that it's you're going to be more successful if you are like the people who are already there. And of course, decisions for promotion yes are much easier when you're seeing someone around. Yes, you
Cultural Intelligence in Leadership
00:19:39
Speaker
get the opportunity to do the little things that impress people yeah rather than just deliver the big thing.
00:19:44
Speaker
And it's it's almost ah like getting around to understanding the the leadership style and how that fits together. seems to be one of the key elements of understanding how you might have to move or change.
00:19:58
Speaker
those styles in order to end up with a stronger senior leadership team, stronger leadership across all levels of your hierarchy, and then a better organization. But the understanding of the masculinity and the femininity in the leadership scale may lead to you understanding much more about how to achieve that level of serenity within the leadership of the organization as well.
00:20:27
Speaker
But then you've also got to position all of that within the culture of the organization and then the operation of the organization as well to make sure that all of those things can come together and gel so that you are able to maximize all of that. And there's a huge element of culture in this, isn't there?
00:20:47
Speaker
Yes. Understanding that that element of culture within an organization. It's not just what happens when you're not there. it's It is really getting underneath it and understanding. And I think that's called CQ or cultural intelligence.
00:21:03
Speaker
Yes. You know, I think one of the that the real secrets of a good leader for the future is self-awareness. What CQ does is is ah it gives you a tool to explore your own um willingness and interest and skills and ability to act on a sensitivity to cultural difference.
00:21:29
Speaker
A lot of organizations, particularly those that that employ people from from different cultural ah backgrounds, different nationalities and so on, are finding this a ah really helpful tool to increase self-awareness you know it's ah It's a great so psychometric because so many of the psychometrics, like the MBTI and 16PF and all that, just tell you if youre who you are through a certain lens.
00:21:59
Speaker
where CQ says, this is this is how you are now. And if you want to develop or change or or to be more adept in the skill of relating to other people from other cultures and and backgrounds and so on, you can do that. And this is how you do it. Yes. It's a tool to increase self-awareness, which is which is great.
00:22:18
Speaker
understanding and appreciating people from different cultures and different nationalities. And yes, every nationality has its own culture, and but also within countries, different regions have their own culture. And then you can split down into different genders, different social classes. The expectations of people from ah one type of background will be completely different to those from another. um the In some areas...
00:22:46
Speaker
um, teenagers will understand all the various different wines because that's part of their culture. But to put, to put those people into an environment where, um,
00:22:58
Speaker
It's like a bit like Rich Dad, Poor Dad or House Swap type television programs. People from one culture find it very difficult to adapt to and culture of rabe another family, even from just different parts different sides of town. The cultures can be completely different. And understanding that people's lives are different and then how to interact with those people to build a positive relationship and to be able to then lead them is, I think, yeah one of the key skills that people are going to need moving forward into the 21st century. Yeah,
00:23:36
Speaker
that's right and When we talk about these sorts of things, we can make it sound very easy. But what do you think of the main challenges that someone who said, right, I'm going to look at how I lead my people, how I'm going to think about the masculinity and the femininity and trying to find a point of serenity in my leadership style. What do you think are the biggest challenges that those people might face?
00:24:03
Speaker
Gosh.
Personal Growth and Authenticity in Leadership
00:24:04
Speaker
um Well, I suppose from an individual point of view that that what you're doing is taking a journey into yourself. And if you really want to explore, it can be very uncomfortable.
00:24:15
Speaker
Yes. There are wonderful rewards along the way, but it isn't comfortable. Yeah. That's the sort of intrinsic approach. From the extrinsic viewpoint, um a lot of people become very uncomfortable when you change.
00:24:32
Speaker
and ah because they they have you boxed in a certain way. This is who you are. And when you turn up and you behave differently, it takes them off balance. ah And quite often it challenges them. And of course, as you change, your circle will tend to change. And the people that you want to be around is likely to change.
00:24:56
Speaker
So that self-exploration journey is one of change um in in in all sorts of ways. um you know the The end result is great, um but it's not it's not a straight straight path.
00:25:13
Speaker
It's an investment in time and energy and physical, intellectual, and emotional energy, I should think. Yes. Lots of things are going to challenge you on that journey. It's interesting you talk about um energy there, of course, because one of the things that people find is that when they've been suppressing part of themselves in order to fit in to wherever it is that they are, and they finally make a decision to say, i don't want to do that anymore. I don't feel the need to fit in. Either you accept me as for who I i believe I ah actually am, or you don't, but I don't care because I want to be myself. And what actually people find is that the relieving
00:25:52
Speaker
of that suppression frees up an enormous amount of energy because they've been putting all this energy into closing themselves down or hiding a part of themselves.
00:26:03
Speaker
Yes. It's really remarkable to see how people can be energized from that process. Yeah, they the release are from the pressure of trying to fit in and be something that you don't really want to be in order to pursue your career ambitions is a kind of for some people be overwhelming. And I'm sure that makes a contribution towards people's problems and challenges that they face with their mental health.
00:26:29
Speaker
But actually saying, this is who I am. and you can either accept me or reject me, but don't expect to change me, is empowering for the individual. And also I suspect for the other people as as well, as the people around them. Because once one of you does it, this also then opens up opportunities for other people to do it as well.
00:26:49
Speaker
But somebody has to take that first step. That's right. And at the same time, of course, you you can't just say, well, this is who I am and you've got to accept it in as much as we we are always changing.
00:27:02
Speaker
To say, I'm an old dog and you can't teach me new tricks. um You know, all the neuroscience now would say, well, actually, that's nonsense. At whatever age you are, you can create new neural connections ah and so on. So um i think it's it's the people who are open, as you said right at the beginning, about learning. We are on a learning journey. As long as we enter it and engage with it, we can be very interesting, interesting to ourselves and interesting to other people yes as we learn and develop. Yes.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yes, I agree with you. And this conversation has been very interesting for me and has provoked all sorts of different thoughts about looking at my own leadership style and incidences from the past where a bit of serenity might actually have been of value and understanding.
00:27:58
Speaker
Leadership is about understanding yourself, I think, before you can understand and hope to lead other people. But it certainly made me think, Tom. Thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Michael.
00:28:11
Speaker
Thank you. I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Tom Dennis, the creator of Serenity
Podcast Conclusion
00:28:23
Speaker
in Leadership.
00:28:24
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. If you've liked this edition of The Independent Minds, please give it a like. And to make sure that you don't miss out on future editions, please subscribe.
00:28:41
Speaker
Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.