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Motivation Matters – a conversation with Stephen Walker
7 Plays10 hours ago
Explore the connection between transformational leadership and the motivation of employees
Stephen Walker is an engineer who became frustrated when people failed to share his enthusiasm for the work tools he created. That frustration became a fascination for discovering what motivates people at work to engage in new activities and the role of leaders in maximising that motivation.
Stephen is the founder of Motivation Matters a consultancy that specialises in helping organisations improve the motivation of their employees.
In this episode of The Independent Minds Stephen and host Michael Millward explore
- What makes employees feel motivated.
- How motivation adapts to different circumstances
- The impact of different types of employer employee relationships
- The challenges for leaders
You will leave this episode with a wider understanding of motivation and how you might improve the motivation of your team.
More information about Stephen Walker and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Independent Minds series
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for every everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysseedah.
Guest Introduction: Stephen Walker on Employee Motivation
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, my guest Independent Mind is Stephen Walker, who is the founder of Motivation Matters.
00:00:36
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, Amazon and Google YouTube Music.
00:00:57
Speaker
Zencastr really does make making content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
00:01:12
Speaker
All the details are in the description.
Stephen Walker's Background and Career Shift
00:01:15
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencast is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:28
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Today, my guest independent mind is Stephen Walker, who is the founder of Motivation Matters, a consultancy that advises on issues related to employee motivation.
00:01:49
Speaker
Stephen is based in Suffolk, a beautiful part of the United Kingdom. If you would like to visit Suffolk, I recommend you do like I do and make your travel arrangements through the Ultimate Travel Club.
00:02:01
Speaker
That is where you will get access to trade prices on hotels, flights and all sorts of other travel related purchases. There is a link and a membership discount code in the description.
00:02:13
Speaker
Now, hello Stephen. Hello Michael, thank you for having me here today. I'm very much looking forward to discussing motivation with you. But please could we start by telling us a little bit about your history.
Understanding and Enhancing Employee Motivation
00:02:27
Speaker
Okay, gladly. I'm an engineer by first training and my first job was actually designing equipment for a TV manufacturer to raise productivity.
00:02:39
Speaker
As my engineering training told me that a good engineer can do for 50p what any fool can do for a pound. So that's what I did. I introduced suites of equipment to make the factory staff more efficient, more productive.
00:02:56
Speaker
And then one day I introduced a piece of equipment that made it simpler to go through the different screens that they had to do to do the tests. They didn't like it.
00:03:08
Speaker
Now, I'd taken a lot of stress away from the job. They were looking through tiny little scopes and I put a big 17-inch screen on there. Instead of giving them half a dozen knobs to push and twist, I gave them one push button.
00:03:23
Speaker
And they hated it. I did not understand. took me three months to work out why. And the reason why was that they had a status in the factory that of doing the most important job to determine the quality of the picture and the sound. And that was true.
00:03:45
Speaker
And they thought I'd somehow reduce that status. That wasn't true, in fact. They still needed all that skill to get got a good sound and picture. And so people don't just work for money.
00:04:00
Speaker
There are other reasons why people work. I'd made the job too easy in the... in their belief. So that then immediately set me off on a new path for my career which is what you said earlier.
00:04:15
Speaker
Why do people work? And of course, when we say you're going to talk about motivation matters, but as you've just explained, motivation isn't about money. Motivation isn't about company cars very often. It's about why do people
Intrinsic Motivation vs Monetary Motivation
00:04:32
Speaker
work? What is it that makes people want to work, to work harder, to be more detail orientated?
00:04:39
Speaker
How do you identify what that is and then provide the elements that will motivate them in order to do what it is that you need them to do? And which I suppose ultimately at the same time they want to do.
00:04:53
Speaker
Yes, you can't push someone to be motivated. you You really do have to create the environment in which they can motivate themselves. And first of all, let's get rid of the money argument. Everybody knows that people work for money.
00:05:09
Speaker
I've asked people go to work for money, and what they do when they get to work is due to that motivation, not the money. So there's a difference there. It's like when you say people go to work for money, but what they do when they get there is not dependent upon the money.
00:05:28
Speaker
That's right. like they're going to get paid for attending to going to work, but you're saying that the money itself will not motivate them. Yes, that's right. And that's that's their game, if you like.
00:05:42
Speaker
Now, you may recall during during COVID, our our then Prime Minister used the phrase, greed is good, because he managed to get one of the vaccines produced in in short amount of time for only £300 million, pounds I think it was.
00:05:57
Speaker
That extraordinary amount of money will motivate people to do extraordinary things. But there's not many people in that category.
Creating Exciting Work Environments
00:06:06
Speaker
So I'm talking about the pretty much ordinary working person now.
00:06:12
Speaker
I don't just mean in the factory or or in a mortgage mill or something, but people doing all sorts of jobs where they go daily and and they do stuff.
00:06:23
Speaker
What they do depends upon what they want and what they want to do. And that but that's the key to it. That's the key to motivation. Yeah, so in the example that you gave from the COVID situation, that is a completely different situation to the everyday run-of-the-mill people going to work. There is a very specific crisis, a very specific solution that needed to be solved and a very specific problem that needed to be solved and a solution implemented and in those sorts of circumstances when you want something done quickly to a standard money could motivate people to get on and do it but what you're talking about is when you have people who are doing their ordinary work day in day out what is it that you need to do in order to motivate them
00:07:17
Speaker
Exactly, Michael. ah I wouldn't say work is ordinary. I think you need to make the work extraordinary. um And that's part of the leader's job is to do that, yes as to is to make a exciting that exciting.
00:07:31
Speaker
Yeah, because it sounds as if it's not what you give people that motivates them, but it's how you treat them that motivates them. Yeah, um if I can give you my analogy...
00:07:45
Speaker
I don't know if you ever bought a second-hand car, but if you have, then you're negotiating with the seller to get the best deal. You know you want all the luxuries added on, year's servicing, a two-year guarantee, and equally you want to pay as little money as possible, and the seller is doing the opposite. He's trying to get as much for as little as possible.
00:08:07
Speaker
and that's that relationship, a commercial relationship. At the other end of the relationships is is a ah loving relationship, you know, your're your significant other.
00:08:19
Speaker
And if your significant other has had a bad day at work, then you know you might suggest a takeaway, you'll be opening the wine, you'll be doing all those things to look after your significant other, because you know that when you've had a bad day, you'll get exactly the same.
00:08:34
Speaker
And nobody's keeping score. That's the important thing. Nobody's keeping score. You're being cared for, being cared about. Now, I think a working relationship should be somewhere between those two, somewhere between commercial and loving.
00:08:49
Speaker
And I think it should be much nearer the loving end than the commercial end. Because if you're at the commercial end, both parties are trying to get as much as possible for as little as possible.
Transformational Leadership Explained
00:09:03
Speaker
How does that sound sensible in the world of work? It doesn't sound sensible and it's a really good analogy because haven't got anything to come back at you really about it because it just makes so much sense.
00:09:17
Speaker
and is It is like, yeah, you're buying and selling something and and when you get down to brass tacks, I suppose, when you go to work, you are selling your time, your knowledge, your skills, your experience to an employer.
00:09:32
Speaker
but it's not the simple transaction of of swapping all of those for money. You have ah you have the the power to deliver your skills, your knowledge and experience in different ways.
00:09:47
Speaker
and Yes. I get it that, yeah, what you're saying is that if you care if you care and feel cared for, you are more likely to give more in exchange. You don't need to have a whiteboard and you're ticking things off.
00:10:06
Speaker
that That's in a nutshell, that's it. um There are complications, of course. Yes. I get the idea, the concept, and like the analogy is brilliant. That's that's fantastic.
00:10:18
Speaker
But how does somebody go from, yes, it's great analogy, yeah let's be more loving and less transactional, And what is it that people need to do in order to get to that situation? what would If I'm starting my management stroke leadership career tomorrow, what sort of things should I be aiming to do in order to build that type of relationship with the people that are in my team?
00:10:45
Speaker
Relationship is is the thing. um There needs to be a human relationship between you and your team. So that if they believe when they believe that you care about them, care for them, look out for them, then human beings are wired to do the same for you.
00:11:07
Speaker
You know, um one one of the great marketing tricks, isn't it, is to is to say thank you to somebody, thank you for doing this for me, and can can you now do this?
00:11:17
Speaker
Because you you generate that feeling of warmth because you've exchanged something. you know Usually it's something not worth much, but it's ah it's ah it's it's a marketing thing because people like to feel they're giving back.
00:11:32
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. It's like the marketing, it's it's almost like you you buy something, you get a free gift or you buy something, next time you buy something, you'll get a discount, all those sorts of things.
00:11:43
Speaker
Yes. Which is a little bit towards the transactional, I suppose. But what you ah you're saying is, it's like, I care about you. So although you bought A, I'll give you b which is going to add value to A and cement your relationship with it.
00:12:03
Speaker
Yes, now that sounds, I think, a bit pink and fluffy. Now, I was an operations guy for 25 years, and you don't get to be an operations guy for 25 years by being pink and fluffy, because sometimes you have to do difficult things, and you always have to meet the invo monthly invoicing requirements.
Fostering Problem-Solving and Innovation
00:12:22
Speaker
So, you know, it's not about having, you don't feel well today, just sit there and don't do anything. you know It is about getting stuff done, which is the important thing. but doing it in a way that every month it gets easier to get stuff done.
00:12:38
Speaker
So that that relationship is absolutely the key. It's things like empathy, all these all these soft skills that that we talk about that go out of the window when you get a hard driving manager.
00:12:54
Speaker
someone that thinks it's better to shout at people and ah make them frightened of you. You know, the classic phrase, don't let me catch you doing that again. Well, you know, that that means that you won't catch them doing that again because they're going to spend all their of time looking over their shoulder.
00:13:11
Speaker
That's Because that approach to management is called command and control. So as you command them, you control them. People almost live in fear of doing the wrong thing.
00:13:23
Speaker
But what you're talking about is an approach, I suspect, that is going to encourage people to try new things, to be different. you Have you given it a name?
00:13:33
Speaker
Or is it known by a name? Well, transformational leadership is is what I discover other people have called it after before I started doing it sort of 30 years ago. i discovered fairly recently that for the last 10 years, people have called it transformational leadership.
00:13:50
Speaker
Okay. So in a nutshell, how would we define transformational leadership in a nutshell? What's the sentence that explains what it is? Transformational leadership means that your people fix your problems before you know you've got them.
00:14:05
Speaker
Now, it doesn't happen overnight, I can bet you that. um Early on in my management career, senior manager would say that, Michael, don't come to me with a problem, come to me with a solution.
00:14:18
Speaker
So I'm going, well, what's the point in coming to you with a solution unless you know what the problem is? But anyway, what you're saying is that it's not so much come to me with a problem that's out the door. It's not even come to me with a solution.
00:14:31
Speaker
It's come to me with with a a report of this was the problem, this was the solution that we implemented, now it's back to what it should be. That's right. Right.
00:14:42
Speaker
So you've got more people doing, understanding more about what is required, understanding more about how things work rather than simply doing their part of the process.
00:14:54
Speaker
And at the same time, also having the confidence and something isn't right, not just to speak up about it's not right, but also to do something to put it right.
00:15:07
Speaker
Yes, that that one sentence really has everything in it. You have to give them the means to know it's a problem, the means to understand the parameters around the problem, which usually means sharing more data with them than companies normally do.
00:15:25
Speaker
um And then you need to give them the authority to make changes. And that's particularly difficult. um because things have to things have to function. They have to be what they are. you know's It's no good building a house having it falling down because they forgot to put the walls in. They thought that was a good idea. It saved a lot of time.
00:15:48
Speaker
What is it that a transformational leader does in order to create that type of attitude stroke culture within the team that they are leading?
00:16:00
Speaker
but What sort of things do they do? Right, so first of all, that that relationship building. You know that people are all different. And in my experience, don't ask me to prove it, but in my experience, um people will divide into three. A third of the people will agree with the your new idea straight away because that's what they do. And they'll agree with the next new idea straight away as well.
00:16:26
Speaker
um A third of the people say, you'll need to prove it, mate. and a third of the people say not not in a million years. the first third you've got, the second third you can get most of them in about nine months a year, and that third third could take a year to 18 months to two years, depending.
Building Genuine Relationships in Leadership
00:16:49
Speaker
But you get more and more people as you go on, and you get peer pressure involved as well. So how would a transformational leader create that transformation in the in their team?
00:17:01
Speaker
When you say there are always going to be early adopters, enthusiastic adopters, those that are a little bit more reluctant, and then those that are dead against the idea. What is it that a transformational leader would do that would encourage each one of those groups to get involved and to look at things more positively?
00:17:22
Speaker
So although you might, so the theory says it's a third, a third, a third, maybe it could be two thirds and then a sixth and a sixth if you adopt this approach. yeah What is it that transformational leader does to increase the level of adoption and improve the the the speed at which people adopt the need for change, for example?
00:17:44
Speaker
So consistently demonstrate that the leader cares about the people um and going above and beyond to care for the people.
00:17:56
Speaker
right So in one of my roles, we pretty much did away with the start and stop times. Now as a manager I'd never ask people to come in at six o'clock in the morning or stay till seven o'clock at night. thought that would be unreasonable, we know, we had core hours.
00:18:15
Speaker
But by people choosing to do it themselves, so long as obviously we complied with the safety rules around it, they would do things that you wouldn't ask them to do.
00:18:27
Speaker
And they would do that to achieve the results that we needed to achieve. That's almost as if like, yeah, I know what needs to be done. So I will go out of my way in order to do something to help to contribute to the achievement of the the team's goals and objectives.
00:18:46
Speaker
Exactly. What is it that that transformational leader does to get that person to see what their role is within the organization?
00:18:58
Speaker
Oh dear, you've dealt with people, you know it's never like that.
00:19:04
Speaker
I think that it the the first step, you know, before there's a, there must be a first step before try to show that you care for people, but that has to be a genuine care.
00:19:18
Speaker
Yeah. Right. People have to believe it can be intended to be genuine, but people have to believe that it's genuine as well. And that means that, that before you can deal with the individual and the, the, the micro part of this relationship, um,
00:19:34
Speaker
Haven't you also got to do the macro part of the relationship as well? And I suppose it may always provide the vision of why that job exists, why that person is important in the organization?
00:19:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:51
Speaker
um So it's very important to take whatever the organization's vision goal is and break it down to the level that the person in front of you that you're talking to can actually affect, can implement.
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah. um Because if if if you're talking to someone five or six layers down in an organization, say, um what does 7% return on investment mean to them? doesn't mean anything.
00:20:18
Speaker
It needs to be brought down to to to to the right level, and even if that's in the boardroom or or lower still. Part of the role of the transformational leader is for everybody within their team. They have to understand those people in the team, what's important to them, so that then they can explain to each member of the team the vision in in the context of what's in it for them as an individual to help work towards the fulfillment of this objective yes right so let's start with talking to people about this this this job takes an hour the what do we have to do to make it take 55 minutes which the answer to which is very rarely going to be you work quicker
00:21:08
Speaker
Well, you can't work quick. Working quick is stupid because, you know, if you work 10% faster and then productivity goes up to 110%, you're going to work another 10% faster, in which case product productivity is 121%, but you're putting in 121% of effort.
00:21:25
Speaker
That makes no sense. There's a limit to that. You know, you quite rapidly run out of room to get better. But if you reduce the amount of work in any job, The sky's the limit because it simply gets easier and easier and easier to do
Connecting Goals to Personal Impact
00:21:40
Speaker
it.
00:21:40
Speaker
Which takes us back to that story that you started with, which is essentially that you were designing equipment that would make people's make it easier for people to do their job.
00:21:53
Speaker
But when you were doing that in the technology company, the thing that you miss that was missed was the understanding of people's attitude towards their own jobs and what their jobs meant to them as individuals.
00:22:07
Speaker
Yes. Yes. if i'm correct from what you're saying and my understanding is correct then what you're saying is that if you adopt a transformational leadership approach and get to understand your employees and work out what could be in the objective the fulfillment of the objective the fulfillment of the company's goals targets whatever it is that you want to describe it as what's in it for them and understand what is important to that individual you've moved the relationship away from a transactional command and control one to one where you are valuing the individual more highly and demonstrating that to them showing them that you care about them because they are highly valued and that then will help them to find the ways to do things
00:23:03
Speaker
easier, find the ways to do things in a more efficient way. But I take on board what you say about just doing something faster is never a better way to achieve efficiency or effectiveness.
00:23:18
Speaker
You have to think about how the work is designed and how that impacts people as well, their interpretation of that. And I wish that all those years ago when I asked myself why do people work, I knew all these things.
00:23:32
Speaker
I didn't. um It took me 15 years to to slowly understand um how how this worked and why people worked.
00:23:44
Speaker
um But there's there's there's something else. So if if you've got individuals in your team that are coming up with ideas to make the work easier, and and but that does succeed and it does work and you put it into the official process, how do you think they feel?
00:24:02
Speaker
If they get recognised for it, I should think they feel pretty good. If they don't get recognised, probably not so good. If somebody else claims their ideas as their own, pretty down about it, I should think.
00:24:16
Speaker
ah Well, um yeah, in a reasonably sized team, that doesn't normally happen. And and by recognized, I don't believe in throwing money at people.
00:24:28
Speaker
I don't believe in treating people like performing dogs. no I think that if an employee someone at work is coming up with idea after idea to to make the process easier, then when the salary review comes around, you tell them, we really value what you're doing.
00:24:46
Speaker
He is a good pay rise. Yes. So that's that's telling them that you value what they're going to do tomorrow based upon what they did yesterday. Yes, that's good idea.
00:24:57
Speaker
And I've valued what you did with us today. Thank you very much, Stephen.
Conclusion and Key Insights
00:25:01
Speaker
It's been very interesting. I will always think about that difference then but between the the sales, secondhand salesperson and the the living relationship. It's a very good analogy.
00:25:12
Speaker
And thank you very much. Thank you. Yeah, I've learned a lot about transactional leadership. So thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Stephen Walker from Motivation Matters.
00:25:32
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. If you're listening to the independent minds on your smartphone, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data.
00:25:48
Speaker
So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There's a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3.0 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:26:05
Speaker
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00:26:22
Speaker
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00:26:36
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.