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21. Grief Is Not Linear - With Crystal Webster
75 Plays5 years ago
Crystal shares her and her husband's journey of becoming parents, as well as their journey of grieving the death of their daughter Madelyn, who died just hours after birth
Her grief and mourning process led her to develop Sharing Solace, a community of grievers for grievers where you can find grief support resources as well as gifts and mementos for grievers. She also recently released a book about her grief story!
Get in touch with Crystal Webster:
website: https://sharingsolace.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SharingSolaceLLC/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sharingsolace/
Info on the book: https://sharingsolace.com/book/
Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep: https://www.nowilaymedowntosleep.org/
Music: www.oneplanetmusic.com
Production: Carlos Andres Londono
Want to share your story or get a complimentary grief coaching session? Get in touch with Kendra! www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
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Transcript
Social Dilemma: Revealing Parenthood
00:00:01
Speaker
And so I always felt like I was playing this split second game of, are we going to be friends when I would meet a new person? Cause it was like, I can, I can lie to you now and tell you I have no kids and rip away a little piece of my soul right now and, but save you the emotional drama of going into that. Or I can have that heavy conversation now.
00:00:30
Speaker
if I think we're going to be acquaintances long term, because at some point it's going to come up.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:40
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:47
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:03
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
00:01:24
Speaker
Welcome to today's episode.
Guest Introduction: Crystal Webster
00:01:27
Speaker
I am excited to introduce you all to my new friend, and I say new because we've never met. This is my Instagram friend slash now friend, Crystal Webster, who's on the line. I just love the benefits of social media because they do end up opening these opportunities of getting to know people
00:01:53
Speaker
that you have so many commonalities with that you would have otherwise not known had you not exposed. Wait, exposed. That did not sound right. Did that sound right? Oh, Crystal, I just said exposed. I love it. I love it. We're getting this off to a good start already.
00:02:10
Speaker
You know what I mean? When we really show our true selves and we kind of share about us, we get to meet people that share certain similarities. And I love that you reached out to me, and now here we are on the podcast. Yay! I'm so excited.
Crystal's Life and Marriage
00:02:28
Speaker
So, Crystal, tell us a little bit about you. Where do you live right now?
00:02:34
Speaker
So I'm in Kansas City. And this was my questions. And again, because I was Kansas City, Kansas or Kansas City, Missouri, Kansas City, which one? Technically both. Yeah. There's a Kansas City, Kansas, and a Kansas City, Missouri. I'm actually in a suburb on the Kansas side.
00:02:52
Speaker
Okay. Do you always get that question anytime people... Most of the time, yeah. It's interesting because when my husband traveled too, he loves it by the way. He says it's a gorgeous Kansas City. I love it.
00:03:11
Speaker
Yeah, he, yeah, good, awesome. Yeah, he says it's beautiful. But I was like, I'm always like, Missouri, Kansas, which one? Like it's just so misleading with the word Kansas in the name of the city, but yet that sometimes it's Missouri. So anyhow, and do you say Missouri or Missouri? That's a proper saying. Wade, do you know? The Missourians call it Missouri. Missouri, right? The Southern side sounds like Missouri. But in Kansas City, we call it Missouri.
00:03:37
Speaker
Missouri. Oh, okay. It's a local dialect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you'll know who's from Kansas. You know who's from Kansas if they say Missouri, and you'll know who's from Missouri if they say Missouri. Pretty much. Yeah.
00:03:55
Speaker
All right, to anybody that's from Missouri, I'm sorry if we're like, we're just trying to just get it right, whatever. Tomato is still the same thing. So I like to keep these conversations very casual and flowy, as you could see, Crystal, even though the topic we're going to talk about is not necessarily light and fluffy, right?
00:04:16
Speaker
Let's just talk a little bit about that. You live in Kansas City. You are married. Tell me a little bit about your life and your husband and what it is you do. That's a loaded question, if I've ever heard it. How about, ooh, okay. That's too much for first date to first date. Sorry. Let me just backtrack. How long have you known your husband? Oh, okay.
00:04:45
Speaker
It's kind of a funny story. We met in high school. We went to high school together, and we actually dated for a few months as ninth graders, as freshmen. Oh my gosh. Yes. Forever. Our friendship and relationship is old enough to drink at this point, which makes me feel really old. But we only dated for a couple months, and then I dumped him because he was kind of a band nerd.
00:05:10
Speaker
Oh, my kids are band nerds. Excuse me. Excuse me. Can you please read to him? What were you? He was a band nerd. What were you? I was a theater choir nerd. Oh, yes. Like, I'll say it. You were the other type of nerd. Right. The theater nerd, he was a band nerd. Exactly. Our nerdiness just didn't mesh very well.
00:05:34
Speaker
And then we didn't talk for five years. Oh, wow. So ninth grade. And then did you go to the same, so this is the, you were in the same high school, but in ninth grade you dated, you didn't talk even though you were in the same high school at that time? Yeah, I mean, because our circles really didn't revolve around. I mean, he was in the band and I was in the theater and we kind of had some mutual friends, but our circles really didn't overlap. And then we went to different colleges.
00:06:06
Speaker
No, they were both in state. Okay. But probably a couple hours from each other. He went to K state and I went to a little bitty school, Emporia state. And then it was one of those, you know, you kind of come back for, I don't know, Christmas break or Thanksgiving break or whatever. And you're like, Oh, I'm back in town, but I don't really want to hang out with my parents. So call everyone I know to see if they're in town.
00:06:33
Speaker
And then they call everyone they know and pretty soon you have 50 people. A party. Yeah. You have a party. You have a party. And it's been a whirlwind ever since that time.
00:06:46
Speaker
Wow. So this was like, so five years after in one of these times in which you came, that's when you guys met in one of these 50 something people that were in town from having been, that's amazing. And our second first day, we have first firsts and second firsts, you know, because the first time was in ninth grade. It was in ninth grade. And our second first date was 01, 02, 03.
00:07:11
Speaker
Okay. Wait, wait, wait. Oh, one or two. So January 2nd, 2003? Oh, one, oh, two, oh, three. I was like, what, what, what? What does it mean? I thought you said like, oh, one, a two, a three. I'm like, oh, one, a two, and a three. What is a one? Oh, one. Oh, January 2nd, 2003. And then when was the marriage then?
Societal Expectations on Family
00:07:30
Speaker
That was the date. When was the marriage?
00:07:33
Speaker
uh, three and a half years later. So we got married in 2006. So we actually got engaged a year before that in 2005 on a vacation to Las Vegas.
00:07:45
Speaker
Did you get married in Vegas too? A year later, we went back and got married in Vegas. Have you got engaged in Vegas? You get married in Vegas. I think you did. That's the other little slogans. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Have you got engaged in Vegas? You come back and get married in Vegas. Okay. I feel like it's very important to say that they were two different trips
00:08:11
Speaker
A year apart. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for everything. My husband and I, we dated for like eight months, but we dated for like eight months between like dating and getting married. So I have no, it's no problem for me to, for you. If you would have told me we got engaged in that same day we got married, I would have not seen anything weird with that. So, but for you, so you guys got engaged and then came back. And then, so the story we're going to share a little bit is then of,
00:08:41
Speaker
parenting and kind of the journey there. So at what point down in your, um, in your relationship that you guys start planning to have children or wanting to have children in your life? So we always kind of knew that we wanted children. And I don't know if that was so much of we knew or society told us that we knew, you know, I'm from the Midwest and you
00:09:10
Speaker
you know, you go to college and you get married and you buy a house with a picket fence and you have kids and then you get old and then you die. Like that's how it works. Um, so we always kind of knew that kids were in our future and not necessarily, I don't say that with any connotation to that. Like it wasn't forced upon me.
00:09:34
Speaker
but I don't ever remember being like, oh my gosh, the only thing I want to do in life is be a mother. If that makes sense. Yeah. Oh, it makes a total sense. Yeah. Because some people that just know, and that's already like they're, it's kind of like somebody being a doctor or wanting, you know, kind of having that goal. It's the same, like motherhood being like that.
00:09:53
Speaker
kind of idea of who they see they are going to be, aside from anything else. And so you just kind of just knew you were, but that was not necessary. So then 2006 is when you got married. And it wasn't like a hurry up and get married so we can start having kids or it was just, we're going to get married and then be married for a while and then kind of go on
00:10:16
Speaker
You know, kind of go see what happens. The journey of this new chapter and then just go from there. So there was no particular timeline. It was not like the clock is ticking type of feeling ever in your relationship.
Cultural Norms in the Midwest
00:10:30
Speaker
Okay. And again, I'm a good Midwestern girl, so I got married at like 20.
00:10:35
Speaker
Well, if I tell you, then you can do math and figure out how old I am today. I don't know how I feel about that. Oh, it doesn't matter. But do you have a problem? I am totally good with age. I tell people all the time, I'll be 45 this year. I'm like, oh boy. Yeah, I definitely get better with age. I like to think. There we go. So I mean, I got married at 24.
00:10:56
Speaker
You got married at 24 yet? At 24. I mean, which is, yeah. I mean, that's the appropriate Midwestern age, I feel like. Interesting. That's interesting. So there are a lot of boxes you got to kind of fit in into that mentality, the age and everything. I mean, and it's never like I felt obligated or forced into it, but that's just kind of how things work here. You know, you just kind of, you graduate college and you
00:11:23
Speaker
hopefully find your spouse or partner in college. And then after that you do, you know, you move on and check the next box and check the next box kind of thing.
00:11:34
Speaker
Now with that, was there also like a box then, like in the Midwestern mentality that you kind of grew up with, is there something about like what happens once some of these, when families or women, you start having then children, do they like this career go on the side burner or does that go simultaneous with then motherhood? It really depends on the family and the mother.
00:12:05
Speaker
Um, some people want to, you know, take on motherhood full-time and others want to have another outlet. Yeah, have both. Okay. So it's not like one, not one thing is not expected. It's not like, yeah, in certain cultures or, or areas in the, in, yeah, in the United States or anywhere else in the world in which once you become a mom, that's it to you. Everything else you forget about whatever you studied or anything. You just kind of, this is the new rule.
00:12:34
Speaker
that's not necessarily the case there. So then how then tell us a little bit then what happened because this is the, and this is by the way to the listeners, this is going to be a very moving story. Crystal and I, I try not to talk to people too much before an interview, but since we had not actually met in person, we did have a Zoom conversation.
00:13:01
Speaker
Which, wow, we could not hang up on that one, could we? No. We talked and we just had a great time getting to know each other. Yeah, we're best friends now. We've never met you in real life, but we're best friends. Now we know we have theater in common, we have all these other things.
00:13:21
Speaker
So anyway, so just so you know, it's one of those tear jerker kind of heart strings pulling kind of story that we're going to share. So just thought I'd give that little piece there because it is going to, even though we're joking and talking in this way, it will take a turn. So just kind of giving you all a heads up.
00:13:42
Speaker
So yeah, so tell us then a little bit then, sorry, now that I'm talking to the, now I'm back to you, not the audience, not my soliloquy thing. So yeah, tell us then, so 24, you got married. How'd you started to work at that time? Because you were right out of college. So what was your career and stuff then?
Career Choices vs. Societal Expectations
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah. So I had gone to college to be a tax accountant.
00:14:09
Speaker
And I went to work at one of the big four tax accounting firms as a
00:14:19
Speaker
This is from like you being the artsy, the theater girl in high school, and then you go into numbers. Were you really good at math in high school too? In accounting, you really only need to know how to add and subtract. So I can handle adding and subtracting. Anything more than that. No. Calculus and geometry amount.
00:14:42
Speaker
Yeah, no, but it's interesting. It's one of those things that I don't know. I would never think of going to something like that with numbers, first per se, for me, the type of personality that I was, or am, or was. That's awesome. Okay, so then you did that, and then you were already working, and then your husband... And what's your husband's name? Sorry, just...
00:15:04
Speaker
Kyle. Yeah, Kyle. So Kyle, what was from band and nerd as we... Kyle, this is no offense to you, by the way, when you listen to this. Lovingly referred to. Yeah, my kids aren't banned as well, as I say. So tell, what is his line of work? So he works in re-insurance, which is basically he works for a company that ensures insurance companies.
00:15:32
Speaker
Oh, I didn't know that was a thing. Yeah, we learned something new. We learned that. Yeah. The people that are passionate about theater end up going into accounting, and we know that people that are going to band can be working through the insurance field. And so this is like 25, 26. You guys are married. You went back to live in the same town you guys grew up. Tell us a little bit about that.
Life in Zurich
00:15:56
Speaker
Uh, so we actually went to, we, I moved to the city cause I'm in a suburb of Kansas city. I know I moved to the city, um, which is literally, I mean, it's 20 minutes from my house. Yeah. It's not like it's the far away. Um, but yeah. So I moved to the big city and got a big girl job and, um, and then his company, uh,
00:16:24
Speaker
gave him an overseas assignment. And so we moved to Zurich, Switzerland for two years. Wow. Okay. So how was that? Okay. So even though we're going to talk about grief in another area, how was that? That's huge. Two years in a country in which different language, different culture, how was that experience for you? Um, it really set me up. First of all, it was amazing and I loved it and I never want to do it again.
00:16:53
Speaker
The thing that I really enjoyed was, I pretty much went, I mean, we were, I think there's an eight or nine hour time difference. So I went to the other side of the world for the most part. And I saw just how different and how similar people are. You know, my favorite thing to do was to go to the grocery store, just to kind of be around people in their element, because nobody's like,
00:17:24
Speaker
Is that what you do when you're on vacation? Yeah, those are the kind of things you do on vacation. Yes, you're right. But it's my favorite thing. Even now when I go on vacation, my first stop is the grocery store. That's awesome. That's a good pointer for anybody that travels, and that's the best way to get to know. So you would people watch? Oh, people watch.
00:17:49
Speaker
People that are from Switzerland pretty much are from Switzerland. They're born in Switzerland. They live in Switzerland. They die in Switzerland. And yet there are a lot of expats. So they're very closed off from basically from getting their heart broken. So they're not real easily
00:18:18
Speaker
They're not real open to making a whole bunch of really close new friends, which I thought was kind of interesting. So a lot of my friends were, well, and also it didn't help that I didn't speak the language very well. English is kind of the lowest common denominator. Like you can speak eight languages and English. And so everybody wants, you know, everyone can speak English. There would be many nights that we'd go to restaurants and
00:18:49
Speaker
the table next to us would be speaking in French, and the waiter would be, you know, speaking Swiss German, and they'd talk to each other in English, because they both knew that language. Oh, wow. So that was a common domain. Yeah. Okay. So language-wise, that was not the issue. You know, you could technically maybe find somebody that you could speak, but it was the fact that people that live there, because that is where, and this can happen in small towns too, even here in the United States, I noticed that.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah. In which where people, if that's where they were born, if that's where they grew up, then they don't need to expand their circle of friends because they've had the same circle of friends all their life. There's no need for that sometimes. So who would you then relate to? Who were your friends? The expats that lived there? Like the US people that lived there? Okay. And were they there for the same line of work as your husband or other types of jobs? There's definitely an expat community. And if you ever go overseas to do something like that, I
00:19:49
Speaker
highly recommend you find that group of people. A lot of them did happen to work with my husband's company. Several of them didn't. Actually, a few of them came over with my company. I actually left my job when we moved to Switzerland, but there were a couple people from Kansas City that moved to Zurich about the same time.
00:20:13
Speaker
which I thought was crazy. I was like, hey, I know you from Kansas City. That is so weird. Yeah. What a small world, right? As I said. Yes. And now how was that for you then for a couple of years then of not having then your job, a J-O-B, you know, the job, the, uh, and then you're here in another country and then you're there because of what your, um, husband, you know, is
Return to U.S. and Cultural Adjustment
00:20:37
Speaker
doing. So then what were some of the ways that you would, yeah, what would you do?
00:20:43
Speaker
What would you do with your time? Um, so my job was to play tour guide and travel agent, um, for the most part. So we, you know, when we take trips and, and living in Zurich, it's like three hours to anywhere you want to go. You want to go up to the mountains. It's three hours by train. You want to go to Moscow. It's three hours by plane. You can take the train, you know, to wherever you want to go pretty much.
00:21:11
Speaker
hop on some form of transportation and you're there in three hours. So we did a lot of traveling and that's kind of where we we chose to focus because we knew
00:21:22
Speaker
that this was kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity. Yeah. And that's so good that you actually took that opportunity to be able to learn so much about all these other cultures by traveling and stuff too, because you knew it was once in a lifetime, because a lot of times we can still end up wanting to stay in that little bubble, right? And then we don't end up expanding.
00:21:41
Speaker
You just use those two years to really expand, grow that opportunity. So then when you guys came back, was that culture shock for you when you came back to the United States after being two years abroad? Did you notice a difference in even having left your town and then coming back? Did it feel like this is something that I at least have experienced at time as if time stood still?
00:22:10
Speaker
As if things stayed where they were when you left. Did you notice that feeling? Yeah. One thing I really noticed that was probably the biggest culture shock piece to me was that I constantly was an information overload because I could understand all of the conversations and things around me.
00:22:34
Speaker
Like I could hear the lady at the table next to me, hear her talking to her daughter about whatever, you know, the math test or whatever. And I could hear and understand the TV and the radio and things like that, where I had just kind of learned or taught myself, I guess, to tune that stuff out, because I couldn't understand it anyway.
00:22:56
Speaker
For the most part. Wow. I had never thought of that because I've never lived in a place in which I don't. Even though I moved here from Columbia, I knew English all my life. So that's never happened to me, that what you're just describing. And that was just, I've never heard that. And it just makes so much sense. The fact that you had to be more with your thoughts than in other people's business.
00:23:18
Speaker
the business when you were in Switzerland. Well, when you come back, you have all this overload of information and sound and sounds everywhere. Yeah. I mean, and who doesn't? Not that you're eavesdropping, but who doesn't hear the conversation next to you and perk your ear or whatever. Right. Right. And it's not that I couldn't, I knew enough of the language to
00:23:42
Speaker
get around and do, you know, like go to the grocery store and buy a cup of coffee and those kinds of things. But I just wasn't fluent enough in Swiss German, which by the way, is not a language that you can go up and pick up a textbook for. It's like a, yeah, it's a dialect more than anything, which is fascinating to me. But so I wasn't as comfortable with
00:24:12
Speaker
the conversation as I am with English, so I couldn't just hear it in the back of my head or whatever and follow along or anything. That to me was probably the biggest culture shock coming back.
00:24:28
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I can hear everything and understand everything and this is way too much and just turn it off, turn off the world. Wow. That is, that's interesting. Yeah. So did you, do you feel you experienced more grief coming back than you did going in terms of the change or was it just different? It was just different. Um, there was, there was grief.
00:24:55
Speaker
At first I was like, all right, this is a great vacation and then it really settled in. When I was over there like I don't, I don't really have a reason to get up in the morning. If it's not to, you know, clean the house and and just do the things to fill my time.
00:25:13
Speaker
And towards the end, my goal was to make sure that I got up and showered before my husband came home from work. And then I went to bed early enough that when he got up, that he didn't know that I had been up all night, which didn't work very well. He knew. So you would actually, so you would go to bed at the same time as he would, no, before he was. I would go to bed basically, um,
00:25:41
Speaker
about the time the sun was rising to go, he would get up to go to work and I'd be going to sleep. I turned into a vampire. Just because you could not, you could not sleep. Sleep was hard for you because of the stress and stuff to be able to sleep was hard. And plus the time difference is I, if I stayed up late enough, I could talk to my friends on the internet after they got home from work.
00:26:05
Speaker
And I didn't really have anything that I pressing to get up for in the morning. And I've always been a night owl. Let's be 100% honest here. That's the honesty here. Yeah. So that was not everyone like you, but it was still like something that it was even more because of the time change and also because you were probably just thirsting for those connections of the people that you had here. So if you staying up late could mean you could talk to them and connect with them, you were willing to kind of
00:26:32
Speaker
sacrifice some sleep in order to have those moments of connection. Exactly. Okay. And so then when you guys got back, then that was, what year, around what
Pregnancy and Grief
00:26:43
Speaker
year was that then? It was very late. I'm all about like years. Most times people forget like years, but I don't know. It just gives me a timeline in my head. I can pretty much give you dates for a lot of things. Well, you just told me the 102, or 102, or 203.
00:27:00
Speaker
So we had, we came back late 2009 is when we came back to the States and we actually moved in with my in-laws, my husband, Kyle's parents, we moved into their house. Um, cause we didn't have anywhere else to live. You had just, yeah, you had just gotten back. And then how long did you live with your in-laws? Um, we lived with them until we bought the house we live in now. Um,
00:27:28
Speaker
We bought it in April, so like nine months later. Yeah, it was pretty much nine months later because I found out I was pregnant on Halloween 2009. Okay. Was that a surprise? Was that a surprise at that moment when you guys found out? Yes and no. Or at that point had you guys already been trying?
00:27:57
Speaker
We had started the conversation of, hey, we've kind of sowed our wild oats. We moved across the world. Now it's time to settle down and get serious. Let's check that other box now.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, now it's time to check the next box. We check this one. We're just doing our to-do list here. Michelle Polar, have you ever heard of her? Yes. Have you have? Okay, because she talks a lot about these things, about these boxes that people try to fit in and mix and that these expectations that are there. So how you're expressing your story of your life, it just reminds me of that, of all these boxes and stuff she talks about.
00:28:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean and if I didn't really have to second get like really think through these things that that would have been I mean That's that's just how you do it. You know, that's just and I think a lot of people kind of feel the pressure of society Yeah, and not that it's
00:29:02
Speaker
like really there, like anybody's actually applying the pressure, but they feel that pressure. Yeah. It's an unset, it's an unset expectation. It's an unset expectation that's there and that we kind of put on ourselves. So then you find out, how did you find out you were pregnant then? How did you not find out? And this, the, the, let me check and then, and okay. So how was that news breaking it too?
00:29:26
Speaker
Kyle, or did you guys wait for the little result? What's that stick called? The pregnancy stick or whatever? Waiting for the little two lines or whatever? Oh, no. I woke up in the middle of the night and was like, okay, I got to do this. I just kind of felt different. You had a feeling. Yeah. You just had a feeling. And so I took the test and it came across. So it's like four in the morning and I'm shaking my husband awake.
00:29:56
Speaker
on Halloween in his parents' house in the room he grew up in to tell him that he's going to be a dad. With his band posters on the wall and with all his awards from all the band.
00:30:13
Speaker
Exactly. That was amazing. That's an amazing story in the middle of the night. Oh, thank you, honey. Okay, great, honey. She was like, why are you waking me up? I want to go back to sleep.
00:30:29
Speaker
And I was like, no, I think you need to hear this. Oh my gosh. That's so exciting. But you're just like a giddy, you're like this giddy child, like a little kid, kind of wait till tomorrow. I can't wait till tomorrow to even take this test. Let me just take it now and find out. And then of course, not only do I know now, let me just wake him up now. It's like a kid waiting for like Christmas Day. Christmas. Yes, that's exactly it. Like maybe if I just go down half the flight of stairs and like peek around the corner. Yeah. I make catching lips.
00:30:57
Speaker
That's awesome. That's your beginning of your parenting story. Yes. Take us into that journey of your pregnancy and your journey from there on. Well, six days later, I was woken up way too early in the morning.
00:31:23
Speaker
from my dad calling me and my dad does not like, even back then he didn't call, he texted. And I was, I was all, you know, and I just moved back to the States and I didn't know what was going on. And I had this like 37 missed calls from this number that I didn't know because it hadn't been programmed in my phone yet. And it was my dad who was out of town for a work conference. And he said, you need to get over to your mother's house right now.
00:31:52
Speaker
her brother Kent and wife Jane just died in a car accident. You need to be over there and tell them to be there with her when she finds out or be the one that tells her. Oh, so your dad knew before your mom? How did that happen?
00:32:13
Speaker
Honestly, I'm not like that whole time period is kind of a blur to me. Yeah. Oh yeah. Most of those things are become a blur, but then he's, so he's telling you and you go there. So this is, this is six days up. So what time of the day was at this moment when you actually spoke to him? Early, I mean like seven o'clock in the morning, it was light out, but it was still early. Like I don't think I brushed my teeth as I was getting in the car to drive that 30 blocks to see my mom and to tell her this news. Um,
00:32:43
Speaker
but I got there and she already knew. Her cousin had called her to see how she was doing. Oh, I, that's the, oh, I know those calls. Yeah. And she's like doing from what? Like she doesn't even know what's happened. She doesn't even know that he's, yeah. Oh. Yep. And so the next, you know, I mean, we immediately got in the car and drove to Nebraska, which is where,
00:33:12
Speaker
They were your uncle at the time. Yeah. And. Started, you know, started doing all of those things. Had you ever experienced death like that as close to this and your family before that? Not not like that. I mean, this was this was a tragic death. They were hit by a semi truck driver that was driving too close.
00:33:41
Speaker
and it was instantaneous. I get to say that there are silver linings to it, but it was horrid. I've had grandparents and great-grandparents and people that have just passed away from old age, because that's going to happen at some point, but nothing like this before, really. Did they have children? Did they have children?
00:34:09
Speaker
Yes. My uncle Kent was actually quite a bit older, 12 years older than my mom. So their kids, they were actually grandparents. Their kids are older than I am. And they had two daughters and two granddaughters. And they actually came in from Alaska.
00:34:34
Speaker
Oh, that's where they live. Your family is spread out. Super spread out. Yes. So that's surprising a little bit because it's like here you are. You stayed pretty much close to where you grew up aside from when you left, but in general, your family has spread out as well. So how was it for you as a daughter seeing your mother go through this? And how was her way of dealing with this grief?
00:35:02
Speaker
It was tough. Um, she unfortunately has experienced a lot of grief in her life from a very, very early age. Um, and as the niece, you know, I'm, I'm close to the situation, but not the center of the situation. You know, like my mother and their children and their grandchildren are
00:35:28
Speaker
So I was just a support person and also I was shook into my core and very sad and devastated throughout this whole thing. Um, but it, you know, there, it was definitely not my place to do certain things or I was just there to, you know, make sure that people were eating food and drinking water and, and if they needed, you know,
00:35:52
Speaker
a clean pair of socks, I would do the laundry or run to the store or those kinds of things. Just being that support. Now, you had just found out six days basically a week before that you were pregnant. Had you shared that news with anybody else in the family? Not a soul. Not a soul. Here you are that you had just experienced something so beautifully and so beautiful and happy in your little nucleus of you and Kyle knowing that you guys were going to be
00:36:17
Speaker
parents and that happiness and then six days later, this parallel, right? This parallel of then death, just alongside. And I remember I had my cousin actually said, you're pregnant, aren't you? And I was like, oh no. Really?
00:36:37
Speaker
I think I was drinking Shirley temples as opposed to vodka diets or something, you know? Wow. They picked up on those things. And so you were there as a support. And then so with your mom, then because she had experienced so much
00:36:52
Speaker
grief in her life, um, what were the ways that she, that you feel were her tools to cope with her grief? And had you, had you seen her experience grief then with, was it with your grandparents? Were there from her side or yeah. Um, so yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, probably the thing I learned most from my mother was that grief is never ending. You kind of learn to carry it with you.
00:37:22
Speaker
um but it you know it doesn't just like magically disappear at any point um and really the best thing you can do is is talk about it talk about what you're feeling talk about the person you know if it's a person that you've lost um you know we we talk a lot about kitten chain and we talk a lot about grandma and grandpa um and not in a
00:37:50
Speaker
I mean, normal, sometimes it leads to tears. But we tell the happy stories. It could just be like, oh, remember this thing, remember that thing. And then you have the conversation and then you move on to the next thing. It doesn't have to be a long drawn out conversation or a pity party. It can just be part of the narrative.
00:38:12
Speaker
Yes, I like that. I like that. So then you learned that from her. And so then this happened at that moment, six days in now. And then when did you share the news of your pregnancy with the family? It wasn't until Thanksgiving. So it was still a couple of weeks after that. My aunt and uncle died on the 7th of November. And then Thanksgiving is, you know,
00:38:41
Speaker
I don't know, the third Thursday of the month or whatever. So it was a couple of weeks after that. Um, we shared it with our parents. Um, cause we thought, you know, I mean, and there's no right time. Yeah. Yeah. You never know. Like when it's because you want to be, you want to be sensitive to what they're going through too. So sharing this like happy,
00:39:04
Speaker
Happy moment for you guys in that moment. Yeah, you just didn't know what was the right, so then you shared it then and then you have siblings as well. Yep. Yeah, so you didn't share it with them yet only with your parents? We shared it with our parents first and then siblings. Okay. It wasn't like, okay, now don't tell anyone. It was just
00:39:27
Speaker
we felt like this was the first grandchild on both sides. So I'm the oldest in my family and my husband's the oldest. Yeah. So we wanted it to be.
00:39:39
Speaker
just them. And then we shared it with our siblings and that kind of, you know, with it. I mean, we weren't shy to tell people. Yeah. After that. Yeah. So then you're, you had your pregnancy, you experienced your pregnancy. Everything was fine. Everything was normal. Yeah. Everything was normal. And then you go to your which week check up? It was about 32 weeks check up.
00:40:07
Speaker
And it was the day after we had bought the house to move into, because I wasn't- That's why you said the night. That's exactly why you said. Yep. Because it was, yeah. So I think we bought the house May 1st and we went to the doctors on May 2nd or maybe the 3rd. I don't remember exactly, but it was in May.
00:40:35
Speaker
for just what we thought was a routine ultrasound. I'm kind of a larger girl. And so I wasn't gaining weight like they had, you know, they kind of expect you to, but I wasn't a twig to begin with. So they're like, oh, you know, things are just shifting, but insurance will cover this. So why not? I was like, heck yeah. Any, any excuse I can take to see my baby.
00:41:05
Speaker
And we heard the words that no parent should ever have to hear.
Complications in Pregnancy
00:41:10
Speaker
Something's not right. Let me go talk to the doctor. And the technician left the room and could have been gone for five minutes or five years. It felt like five years. Yeah. And said, I can't tell you anymore, but the doctor can. So drive across town to where your doctor is and she'll fill you in.
00:41:34
Speaker
And luckily my husband was with me and he had enough sense in him to say, you are not driving. Cause we had met there in our, you know, we had each taken our own car and met at the doctor's appointment cause he was supposed to go back to work and I was supposed to go back to do my things. And, and luckily he was smart enough to say, Nope, you're coming with me. Um, cause I probably wouldn't have made it there to the doctor's office. Um,
00:42:02
Speaker
And when we got to the doctor's office, they said, we don't really know yet. We have an appointment with a specialist for you tomorrow, but this is not good. And more than likely will not be a positive experience.
00:42:26
Speaker
Now these words that you're hearing and this is coming from like, and having to wait to the next day. So the five minutes that the technician might've been gone, that felt like five years that evening. I can't even imagine the waiting. And if you already kind of seem to be a insomniac, so did you sleep at all that night? I remember laying down because I was just,
00:42:53
Speaker
just exhausted. My body was tired and my brain was on information overload. I couldn't take anymore. But I think there was about eight years there that I didn't sleep, not just a night. Yeah.
00:43:16
Speaker
And I think anybody in the same position would, would probably do the same thing. You know, no, I didn't, I don't think I slept. I don't feel like I slept. Right. So you go into the office with the specialist and then what, um, and they poke you and they prod you and, and, um, basically they just, all they could really tell me, well, first, you know, they do an ultrasound. Um,
00:43:46
Speaker
And then they do the other kind of ultrasound, which is far more evasive. Excuse me. And then they sent me for an MRI, which are very uncomfortable for any reason. But basically they took me into a room by myself and put me into this big tunnel, you know, stripped me down to nothing, put me into this big tunnel and told me not to move for an hour.
00:44:15
Speaker
as they took picture, you know, did whatever the MRI machine did. You know, in a silent room except for this loud machine thing that you're sitting in the middle of. And it was, oh, I had to keep saying, quit, quit moving, quit moving. And I was like, how do I cry and stop moving at the same time? Can't be done. And you know, no one else can be in that room with you because it's,
00:44:45
Speaker
radioactive or whatever you know like it's not healthy just to have people hanging out so I was by myself in my own little world of pity party and they they basically came back and told us that our child's head was not formed properly not like the brain didn't form the way that it should have and so
00:45:13
Speaker
I guess what normally happens is spinal fluid is created and the brain absorbs it. And then it kind of, you know, works in a system like that. Well, since the brain hadn't fully formed, that spinal fluid had nowhere to go. So there was a little bitty brain, but her head was huge because of that spinal fluid.
00:45:41
Speaker
And what had been the last ultrasound you had had prior to that? So at week 32, had it been like three weeks, four weeks, and they had never, they had not noticed anything like that in terms of the development till week 32, maybe just because of how a child develops. Is that what it is because of the timeline? Um, I remember them saying that they should like normally that not that they should have, but this is normally caught at like week 12. Wow.
00:46:12
Speaker
But for whatever reason, it wasn't. Wow. And so, and I think, I mean, it's not like I had ultrasounds every week or anything. I probably had two or three along the way. But there was nothing out of the ordinary.
00:46:33
Speaker
Yeah, before. Before that. Now, did you already know the gender prior? Did you already know your baby's gender before the 32 weeks? So no. Because we're going to do like wait till the baby was born. We were just going to wait because the nursery was going to be Dr. Seuss regardless.
00:46:54
Speaker
Oh, you got a Dr. Seuss fan here? Yes, a very large Dr. Seuss fan. When's Dr. Seuss Day? February something? No, when is Dr. Seuss Day?
00:47:04
Speaker
March 2nd. March, you see, you could tell me. I'm like, I know my kids do stuff to get school when they were little at elementary, something on Dr. Tuesday. So that was going to be what it's going to be anyway. So it didn't really matter. And at 32, when you were hearing this diagnosis, you still didn't know the gender either. But we decided to find out because like we didn't know if
00:47:34
Speaker
Like I already, anyone that's been pregnant, I think understands that there's such a deep connection there from the second that you find out. So I already knew this child and I knew their personality, even though nobody else really did. And I just wanted to be able to talk to them as a person as opposed to,
00:48:04
Speaker
A baby. Jelly bean. Yeah, jelly bean or peanut. And we had our names picked out. We just had a boy name and a girl name. And so we weren't going to find out, but when we found out that things were not going to turn out the way we had hoped, we decided we needed to know.
00:48:30
Speaker
And because we didn't know if we were going to have time with Madeline. So obviously she, she was a girl. Yeah. And so did they tell you anything at that moment? So they say the brain. So what did they tell you then in terms of life, lifespan or anything in that moment when they tell you what's happening to the brain? They pretty much said, we don't know anything, but you will not have.
00:48:59
Speaker
a child that lasts with you very long. Oh my gosh. Did you wait till you go into labor and everything at that point? No, we were told that we would have to do a C-section.
00:49:16
Speaker
like a classic C-section where they just basically take a knife and start drawing on you. It feels like. Because of this, because of her, because of her, because of her situation, her delicate situation and the head. Yes. Yeah. Um, which again was a silver lining to me because I don't know that I could have, I mean, I could have because I would have had to, but I don't know that I would have wanted to.
00:49:42
Speaker
Labor. Even push. Yeah, labor. It's just kind of like the moment of having to stay still in an MRI machine and trying to cry and stay still. Here it's the other way around. It's kind of like having to move and push while you're just grieving so much would have been very hard. Yeah. Not that it's not possible, but yes. So then you had the C-section how many weeks then after?
00:50:10
Speaker
It was basically two and a half weeks later. They allowed us to continue the pregnancy as long as it was safe for me. If they weren't every day, it was every other day checkups with just my regular doctor. And heartbeat all the time. There was a heartbeat. But up until the minute we delivered, they said, we don't know if she will be alive.
00:50:39
Speaker
Or if she'll be stillborn or she may go home with you, she may not. Oh gosh, that uncertainty. Just basically be prepared for anything. And so we pretty much walked into the hospital with the clothes on our back. I mean, and it was, you know, we went to the doctor and they said, okay, tomorrow is the day. It has to be. And, but we had, but.
00:51:07
Speaker
We had two and a half weeks to prepare, but I just- Prepare for what? Yeah, exactly. Prepare for what? Prepare for the- because you still didn't even know what the outcome was going to be, so you didn't even know. Are we excited about giving birth? I can't imagine that. We figured that we would walk in with basically the clothes on our back. That was about it.
00:51:36
Speaker
And if we had the luxury of needing a car seat, we had one picked out and we would have grandma go get it from the store. And if we needed an outfit, you know, I take that back. I think we brought a couple of outfits that I had.
00:51:54
Speaker
Already bought. Already bought. You know, because you find out you're pregnant and you're like, oh, I mean, all the kid things. If you already had the nursery already, had you already prepared that? Had you already made the crib and everything by week 32? So no, but only because we had just moved into this house. Oh, there's another silver lining there. Yes. Another silver lining. So we had basically picked out everything.
00:52:23
Speaker
but hadn't purchased anything because where was I going to put it? I think I had maybe a couple of onesies and I think I got a really, really good deal on a stroller. So I had a stroller and that was literally it. Wow. And my official due date wasn't until July.
00:52:50
Speaker
Um, so, you know, I was like, we got it. We had enough time. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know the heavy lifting. I picked it all out and I, you know, kind of designed everything. I, it just needed to be like put together. Um, so, but again, that was a silver lining. I didn't have to take down a crib.
00:53:09
Speaker
I didn't have to, there were very few things that I had to return and I had loving people in my life that were like, we got this for you. Got to hear. So take us then to that moment, then you have the C-section. Yeah. She, she is born and then.
Madeline's Birth and Celebration
00:53:25
Speaker
And she was born alive. She was born alive and how long were you able to hold her in your arms? We held her, she, she was sat down long enough for her weight to register on the scale.
00:53:39
Speaker
And other than that, she was held her entire life. I wasn't in the right mind, but someone was in the right mind enough to tell my parents and his parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles and great aunts and uncles to be there. And we had friends that came to the hospital to meet her.
00:54:04
Speaker
And we had a photographer, which at the time was not really a thing. I know it's much more of a thing now. Um, but I luckily, this is, this is 10 years ago, right? Yeah. This is 2010. Yeah. Um, you know, only, only really, really wealthy, fancy people got to have photographers at their child's birth. Um, but.
00:54:31
Speaker
a very good friend of mine who actually was a photographer and also volunteered her time. For now, I lay me down to sleep.
00:54:43
Speaker
Um, yes. And that I need to put, I need to remember to put that in the show notes. So it's an organization that helps keep those memories of photography for families. Uh, actually you explain it, you explain it better. Um, so I actually didn't know about the organization at the time. I just had a friend that was a photographer and was like, I need, I think I need you because I don't know if I'll ever get pictures. Um, but now I lay me down to sleep is an organization.
00:55:12
Speaker
that where photographers will come into the hospital and take pictures of you and your family with your child. And oftentimes those are the only memories you have. And they do it all for free. They donate their time. They donate their talent. The pictures can be edited and retouched if necessary. It is
00:55:39
Speaker
It is one of those organizations. And it's up to the family's discretion of what it is they want to kind of remain as that memory that they have with their child if they were stillborn or if they passed away a few hours after birth. So how long was it then that she was alive? She lived for eight hours.
00:56:05
Speaker
Um, and one of my silver linings is she was born on May 19th, 2010. And she passed in the very early morning hours of May 20th. And so I get to celebrate her birthday and it is not tainted with the day of her death. Oh, wow. Um, so every year I do something special for her birthday and then I don't get out of bed the next day.
00:56:34
Speaker
And that's so important, Crystal, that you allow yourself permission to grieve that day, even 10 years later, that you just allow yourself to have those feelings and to be okay with that. And that, I think, is important for people to know that it's okay. If that is what you need to do for your own grief, it's okay. There's no rule book of how grief has to be
00:57:02
Speaker
at lived or experienced and having grace with yourself is the most important and that is wonderful that you're able to allow yourself to have that moment to really just stay in bed and be okay with it and not yeah not expect anything differently and maybe there's going to be a day in which you won't
00:57:22
Speaker
Maybe you won't need to be in bed. You don't know, right? There may be a day. But there doesn't have to be a particular date that you set for that. Right. Now, what do you do to celebrate her birthday every year? What do you do? It just kind of depends. Every year is a little different. One year, I just went and hung out at the local coffee shop and bought donuts for anyone that wanted a donut.
00:57:52
Speaker
Oh, I love it. So giving back like contributed all about giving back. Awesome. That's beautiful. It just kind of depends on what I'm feeling that year. Like some years I do something a little bigger. Um, one year I had a volunteer event at my house where we like painted boxes and things that were going to, um, the NICU at a local hospital. Um,
00:58:19
Speaker
Sometimes my husband and I just go and get an ice cream or a piece of cake or something. But I really want to mark that day every year in summer fashion. I love that because you're just keeping her memory alive in all these different ways either by doing something, contribution like the NICU or donuts or an ice cream, something in some way that is just keeping
00:58:46
Speaker
that day. Of course, you keep her memory alive every day as any mother would, but the fact that you celebrate her birthday is just so beautiful. Now, what tools do you use for your grief? What have been some of these tools in the last 10 years that you've used to help you with your grieving process and your mourning process?
Community Support in Grieving
00:59:14
Speaker
Well, I'm not sure that I knew that they were tools at the beginning. Tools could be even just the fact that you rely on friends on, you know what I mean? What did you do?
00:59:28
Speaker
to help you through or what heck do you continue to do? Because it doesn't end. So it just changes a little bit every time. And we're going to get to that afterwards of the kind of things you're doing now. But in those first days, weeks, first years, what were the things that helped you? One thing that I didn't do very well and that if I knock on wood ever had to do it again, something like this,
00:59:59
Speaker
I probably would have allowed more. I wouldn't have isolated myself as much as I did.
01:00:09
Speaker
From everybody from every family from everyone. So from your husband to do you feel like there was some extent? Yeah to some extent even so you guys moved to your new home and Was there even was there joy among that aspect of it or not? Do you even recall that I don't having a new home? No, not really. Yeah, it was it was a blur and to be perfectly honest I I lived on a
01:00:39
Speaker
a twin mattress in the living room for like a month and a half because I wasn't allowed to go up the stairs after my C-section. Oh, recovering. Oh yeah. So I just, I literally like laid on this bed in my sofa, in my living room, staring at the wall or the TV or whatever, you know, like I really couldn't do much. And, and that was a blessing and a curse.
01:01:09
Speaker
in that I didn't have things to do. I didn't have priorities and obligations. You weren't working at that time? I was trying to build my own business at the time. So that just basically got shut down. I couldn't function.
01:01:29
Speaker
Um, I did the bare minimum. Yeah, that was a blessing there because it was not like you had, it was not like, oh, you were going to go on maternity leave and you had this number of weeks and then you had to come back. Even if you maybe did not feel like it or were ready for it, you didn't have that timeline of you have to be okay to go back by this date. Um, but also in some ways it might have been helpful to have that. Cause it would have given you a reason to get out of. Yes. Yeah.
01:02:00
Speaker
There's two sides to every coin. Yes, but you know what though, again, that is just the cards you were dealt in that particular moment in time. That's what would happen and those are the steps you took and that's okay. That's just what happened then. The fact that you had these scars that were healing outwardly as you're here with these inner scars,
01:02:29
Speaker
Yeah. And in some ways I never wanted my outward scars to heal because I felt validated with my emotional scars. The longer it took for my wounds to, my external physical wounds to heal, the more I felt validated and vindicated and able to grieve inwardly.
01:02:56
Speaker
Yes, because you didn't have, again, you were using that as also permission to not get out of bed because you couldn't, because you were healing from a surgery, right? So it was kind of like that a little bit of that crutch to some extent of like, if these don't heal, then I can, you know, outside, it could still give me that space, like you're saying, to just continue to feel like I'm feeling right now and not have to feel like I have to be okay and out and about.
01:03:25
Speaker
So what shifted at that? When did the mattress leave the living room? Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. It was a pretty comfy mattress. It was one of those like, it had a remote control and you could lift up the head. It's basically like a glorified sofa. If it could still be in my living room, it would be. I actually have one of those. It's so funny.
01:03:51
Speaker
We went and bought a mattress. We needed just a, what is it called? Just a frame for our mattress. But the ones they had at the store were the kind that do that. The up and down. It was like one that came with the mattress. It's kind of like it's free on this weekend. It comes with the mattress. And we're like, OK, that's going to be really weird that we have a recliner, one of those hospital beds, a type of thing with remote control.
01:04:19
Speaker
But it's so handy. It is. I'm like, oh, it's so good. I could sit and read a book without having to like awkwardly hold my head. So I can see why you wanted to keep that mattress in the living room. So did you have your family there? Did you allow, then you said you closed your circle. Who did you allow in that circle, in your space? Who did you allow? If any. Very close friends and family.
01:04:49
Speaker
Um, because I think they knew me well enough to know that. Which is good, because I don't even know that I knew myself. Sometimes it's nice just to be around people and realize that, you know, there are other humans in the world, but not have to entertain them or put on a show for them or, you know, and those are the kind of just be. Yeah.
01:05:19
Speaker
Yes. They would come over and the TV would be on and we'd just sit on the sofa or in my reclinable bed and just stare at the TV or they'd take me to the movies.
01:05:36
Speaker
you know, we'd go to Target and Target is like my favorite place on the whole world and just walk around because I hadn't been to Target in months because, you know, I couldn't drive and I couldn't do all these things. That was your Disney world for you. Exactly.
01:05:51
Speaker
Yeah. And so then when you would hang out with family and friends, would the conversation come up of the feelings or the anything? Or did you not talk about Madeline? And you call her Maddie. Is that correct? Do you call her Maddie? OK. Yep. Or did you not talk about Maddie? What was the first few months? Do you remember if that was talked about? Or was it more like, let's just be here?
01:06:19
Speaker
but not necessarily that would they bring up the emotions? Just curious. I don't know that I was in a place. People were very respective of kind of where I was and where I wanted to be. And so if I brought Maddie up, then we'd talk about her. But I don't really remember
01:06:46
Speaker
her being brought up by anyone other than me. So by you bringing her name up, it would give permission to, okay, this is a subject we can talk about. That's actually something very valid to share because a lot of times, some of the people that listen to this podcast are people that might have not experienced grief themselves.
01:07:07
Speaker
I actually get a lot and I'm sure you probably get these kind of Outreaches to people reaching out and saying I don't know what to say with so-and-so so-and-so password like and the Not knowing what to say and I'm like sometimes you don't have to say anything just show that you're there just be just be there Right. It's a it's a thing that we don't we don't talk enough about
01:07:30
Speaker
grief and death that we've, you know, to normalize it enough to have these conversations of even knowing what is okay or not okay to do in the circumstances. And for everybody's different, what everybody's needs are different. Exactly. So in your case, it was only when you would bring up the subject that, you know, talk about her death and talking about her that then
01:07:54
Speaker
People would then engage in that aspect of the conversation. At least early on. Early on. For you, for coping at the beginning with this heavy, heavy grief was really allowing yourself to feel the emotions you were feeling and allowing yourself to be in those emotions for the first few weeks, then opening that circle to some of your close friends and family,
01:08:21
Speaker
having that as support and then just people that would just be there for you and with you. And then how did that transition into coming out into the world with this heaviness and at what point did it maybe start becoming a little lighter? I feel like, you know, women of a certain age, especially in the Midwest, it is, what's your name? What do you do? How many kids do you have?
01:08:49
Speaker
is kind of the progression of questions when you meet a new person. And I always, I never knew how to answer that question because I felt like there were so many movies, like I didn't want to lie because I'm a mother and her name is Madeline and she would be 10, you know?
01:09:16
Speaker
But I also, that's super heavy to get into. So just a random. Yes. Yeah. And so I always felt like I was playing the split second game of. Are we going to be friends? When I would meet a new person, because it was like, I can, I can lie to you now and tell you, I have no kids and rip away a little piece of my soul.
01:09:45
Speaker
right now and but save you the emotional drama of going into that. Or I can have that heavy conversation now. If I think we're going to, you know, be acquaintances long term, because at some point it's going to come up. And so I was constantly like, every time I meet a new person, I'd have to make this split second decision like,
01:10:13
Speaker
Do I like you? Do I think we're going to have a relationship together?" And relationship meaning just friendship or whatever. Yeah, that you're going to get to see them more than just that one time that you ran into them or to a grocery store. So then what was your go-to phrase to those that you didn't feel like, that you were going to see in that split second decision that you weren't going to probably see again after that conversation?
01:10:38
Speaker
what was kind of your automated kind of script per se that you would say to the ones that you were just kind of go over the. Yeah, more often than not people would say, do you have kids? No. Okay. If they pressed and I've had a few people, strangers and otherwise,
01:11:02
Speaker
you know, kind of press, well, why don't you have kids or when are you going to have kids or what, you know, um, and early on I would get like just smoke coming out of my ears, mad and just be, you know, like blow up. Well, I have a daughter, her name is Madeleine. She is dead. I hope you feel good for asking quite, you know, I mean, maybe not to that extent, but like that's how it felt. That's how it felt inside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:32
Speaker
It's so interesting because a lot of times, yeah, those script conversations that we do to get to know somebody are really much even like that. I think I even did it with you. I'm like, do you have a pet? I was like, because my dog came as we were talking in the Zoom, I'm like, oh, you should get one. I'm like, what? Maybe she doesn't even like it.
01:11:48
Speaker
But here I am imposing my own things into somebody else's story. And that's the thing I think we do, we impose our own stories into somebody else. But it's without like, it really is kind of like those generic like, Oh, what's the weather like today? Oh, nice day, isn't it?
01:12:06
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of, right? It's like icebreakers, I guess, those icebreakers that we do of, yeah, are you married? And maybe if we, it's to try to find, I think, common ground with another person to try to then be able to feel like, oh, you do, oh, what school do they go to? Da, da, da, da, da, da. Or, you know what I mean? It's that kind of gateway. So it's not done with a bad intention, but it's amazing.
01:12:35
Speaker
from even hearing your story of how these kind of things can, yeah, a lot of times bring up all these other emotions. So thank you for shedding a light on that because it will kind of give us awareness to how it is we can approach somebody else when we're just meeting somebody, not necessarily ask the. I mean, I don't think that it's a bad conversation. I don't think it's a bad question to ask.
01:12:56
Speaker
Right. Just be ready for the answer. Just be ready for the answer. Just be ready for the answer. And maybe read the room a little bit, because I'm sure I didn't go from all smiles and happy to biting this poor lady's head off. And sometimes I do ask questions that may not have been particularly appropriate.
01:13:20
Speaker
but I try not to do like 47 follow-up questions. Like why not? Why not? Well, what about this? Well, what about that? That was what really got to, what continues to get to me is, oh, you don't have kids. Maybe you should adopt. Oh, you know what? I never thought of that.
01:13:38
Speaker
Yeah, as if, because, okay, so now share about that. So did you guys go into, did you ever, after that moment, did you ever think about, like you just said, like you just said, adopt, did you guys try again to get pregnant? What was that, like, how do you even wrap your head around that, you know, like thinking about children after that?
Genetic Counseling Considerations
01:14:01
Speaker
And did you, after the experience you felt? Yes, we did.
01:14:07
Speaker
We, Madeline. Was that one of those questions? Sorry, if by chance. No. Did that sound like one of those questions? OK. No. I'm like, no, I'm like, wait, did I? OK. Yeah. So what? No, I'm like, oh, wait. Yeah. What? How? Yeah. How do you wrap your head around then thinking about that? And yeah, what happened next? So we kind of just went into. Into like I'm a child of the 80s and 90s, and I was always taught that if you try hard enough,
01:14:35
Speaker
you'll get whatever you want, you know, you want, you want to be president. We'll just work really hard at it and you'll become president. You know, you want to be a rap star. Okay. You're a white girl from the Midwest. Just learn to rap, you know, and you'll be a famous rap star. Um, so we kind of were like, okay, well, you know, at that point we had learned that
01:14:59
Speaker
one in four pregnancies ends in a loss of some at some point along the way um we're like okay well i guess we're one of those lucky couples that
01:15:12
Speaker
I am one of those as well, my first pregnancy, so I can understand to a glimpse of that. I'm one of those statistics, I guess. We can join the club of that statistic. So you knew that you could join the club, but then at what point are you having even that conversation of do we want even to try to have another child? Well, first we needed to find out
01:15:40
Speaker
what, what actually happened with Madeleine. Um, they, they did an autopsy and they did all the thing, you know, uh, and I don't know, they, they told me that's what they do. And I was like, okay, I'm sure I signed a paper that said, yes, please perform an autopsy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, partly because you, a lot of times and maybe in that moment you would have not necessarily wanted answers, but maybe later on you would have, you know, apply, you know? Um, so, you know, months later,
01:16:11
Speaker
It could have been the next day, but it felt like months. We found out that she had a genetic chromosomal imbalance, which basically meant she had, if you think of chromosomes as a puzzle, she was missing a couple pieces. So, you know, you put the puzzle together and you have a couple spots. Well, those spots happen to be important spots.
01:16:41
Speaker
And that's what kept her brain from fully forming. And they said, okay, well, this could be a fluke like it is a fair majority of the time. Or one of her parents could have a chromosomal translocation that was passed along to her. And that's why she wasn't able to sustain her own life. Um, so of course I was like, well, we need to know.
01:17:09
Speaker
you know, because it really did change the protocol of what we did next. If it was just a fluke, then we try again naturally. And if it wasn't a fluke, then the best course of action was to get science involved. And so we found out that it was not a fluke. Madeline had a
01:17:37
Speaker
chromosomal imbalance because I have a chromosomal translocation, which means I have all of the puzzle pieces. They're just in the wrong order. So when I go to give some of them to my children, the likelihood that they will get the pieces that they need is less than 6%. Wow. And at first, we didn't want to know. At first, we only wanted to know
01:18:09
Speaker
If that, if it was like we wanted to know what the cause was, we didn't know who had the cause. Like if it was him or I. Right. Because of the partly because of the blame that couldn't be associated with that. Yeah. Yeah. The blame and the guilt. And, um, but one night in the middle of the night, I woke up just screaming bloody murder. I killed my daughter. I killed my daughter. I killed my daughter. Um,
01:18:40
Speaker
And Kyle was like, okay, well, if you're going to, if this is how you're going to treat yourself, we're going to find out if, if it's valid to feel that way, basically. Like if you're going to act like you did this, then carrying that, yeah, carrying that if you're going to carry that way. This is before you've been new, you had it, you were already feeling that even in your sleep, you already felt that responsibility. Yeah.
01:19:09
Speaker
And so, yes, I was the one that had the translocation.
01:19:14
Speaker
And so there was- Which you have no control about. Which I have no control over. Right? So you did not kill your daughter because, yeah. And you know that. It's just, of course, all these kind of things are the things that you're still allowed to feel them. You're still allowed to feel them. But the part, yeah, when we think rationally, we know that it's not. But the feelings, you can't stop what it is you feel. You just have to.
01:19:41
Speaker
I like to say logically, I fully understand and comprehend. Yes, that's the right word, logically. I'm a mess. Yes. No, and it's absolutely valid. It's so valid to feel. And that's the thing. A lot of times people don't validate those emotions of how we feel. It's like they're always trying to be like, but it's not. Those emotions are valid. They are valid. Again, it doesn't mean that they are logic, but they're valid. They're valid. They're real.
01:20:11
Speaker
They're real. Could science even be an option at that point? Because if it's 6%, could they still do something if you guys were to decide to specifically choose genetically and stuff? Could they do that or no? Yes. They could. We actually went through IVF three times, and it was basically just
01:20:39
Speaker
to have a healthy pregnancy. Like I wasn't saying, I want blonde hair and blue eyes and eight feet tall. Right, right, right. You just want a child that is actually born. Yeah. And they said statistically speaking that if I were to get pregnant naturally 100 times, 99 of those pregnancies would end poorly. Oh, God. And even going into that, I couldn't wrap my head around doing that.
01:21:09
Speaker
Well, even even if there's enough time to get pregnant 100 times in a lifetime, I don't know. No. So to me, it just made sense. OK, we're going to we, you know, and and we were very lucky in that we had health insurance that covered a portion of IVF. So what we did was the basic IVF protocol
01:21:37
Speaker
But then we did day three and day five testing, which basically they make the little test tube babies and they let them grow for three days. And if they grow to three days, then they pluck out a cell and they test that to see. To see what that mutation was. Yeah. And then they go again for another two days and if it makes it
01:22:04
Speaker
two more days than they pluck another cell and they test it to see if that mutation is there. Each time was a roller coaster of emotions.
01:22:20
Speaker
on top of the hormonal roller coaster. Oh, yes.
IVF Journey and Challenges
01:22:25
Speaker
They just. Yeah. You're like crazy up on. Yeah. Up on hormones. Yeah. And all these things that you are not supposed to be jacked up on. Oh, gosh. And and basically our protocol, as I remember it, was it was a numbers game like because, you know, and and at the time I could have said, oh, well,
01:22:47
Speaker
X number percent could do this and X number percent could come out this way and you know, but basically they said, okay, what we want to do is we want to get as many eggs as we can so that we can fertilize as many as we can. And hopefully we will get one. So let's get a hundred. So that one, right? That kind of mentality. Yeah. The six, there's that 6%. So when most women would go through the process and maybe get
01:23:14
Speaker
eight eggs at retrieval day, I would get like 37. And this happened three times. Three times. Yeah. And basically that meant to me like I am three times or four times more crazy than normal people going through IVF because I am four times pumped full of hormones and things.
01:23:37
Speaker
Um, so to me, you know, it's like, Oh, it's just a numbers game. You know, you just keep doing it. And again, my mentality of just try hard enough and you'll get whatever you want. Well, if you can get eight, I can get 80. And if I get 80, then that's, you know, well, we'll work out in my favor. And, you know, so the number that every, you know, they'd report back on day three and day five and.
01:24:04
Speaker
Oh, numbers are great. Okay, numbers could be better, but they're still really good. And then it would come down to our last chance and they'd say, we got nothing for you. And that is tough. I don't know how else to put it.
01:24:24
Speaker
No, no, it's just, I don't think there's another word to put it. Now, what point do you decide that this is just not what you want to keep doing and feeling every single time you, like when do you guys make a decision to just stop? For some reason, we made the decision from the get-go that we were going to do it three times. And I know that part of that was insurance will help cover
01:24:52
Speaker
a portion of this for three cycles. And, and so early on, we're just like, okay, we're gonna try this three times. And in my mind, it was like, Oh, well, that'll result in like six babies, because you know, you'll have
01:25:10
Speaker
or we'll have extra times left over because it's just a numbers game. And, you know, when you go through IVF. Your accountant, wait, your accountant brain was working there. You're like numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. And well, the likelihood of multiples when you're going through fertility treatments, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, we're going to have a litter of kids. We had all this hope. Yeah. So of course.
01:25:34
Speaker
And we went all over the Midwest. We went to Chicago for some treatments. We went to Colorado for treatments. I kind of felt when we were done that we had exhausted our IVF options.
01:25:56
Speaker
And when you come to that decision, does that feel like another, so you're experiencing grief every single month that you go in and that, that, so for three, three months prop, is that about that? So for every, actually it was over three years.
01:26:11
Speaker
Oh, really? So those three times, I was just thinking here cycles. I was just thinking, oh, three month cycles. I'm like, you know, like, yeah, no, there's, there's months of prep and then there's the let down, like they fill you full of the, you know, you're, you're full of, you're basically, I was basically pregnant for four years. I definitely don't know this journey of, of IVF and you know, at all, because yeah, I did not know that it was that long.
01:26:36
Speaker
of time, so three years for three different, you know, times that you tried. And then so when you, you go through all these, yeah, the hormonal, the, the, and the grief experience every single time that you realize that those eggs were not viable. Uh, and then when you make that decision after that third time that, uh, that this is the end, then your experience, did you experience and grief all over again or, or like in terms of having to really know that that was not a box you were going to check.
01:27:07
Speaker
Yes, and I think that I didn't really fully allow myself to grieve until the end of that last cycle. Because I always just had a little bit of hope.
01:27:20
Speaker
Yes. And it's okay. It's okay. Because that hope is what just keeps us waking up the next day. That's okay. It's not naive to have hope. It isn't. It's a survival. I think it's for survival. Yeah. I mean, and that's all I was trying to do was survive. And it's never that I thought I would replace Madeleine. I never. It's never about that. Yeah, not about that.
01:27:47
Speaker
We, in fact, early on in this journey, we like, we got married in the Catholic church. And so you do all these things and you, we had like a weekend where they're like, okay, let's talk about how many kids you want to have. And so it was kind of the marital kind of weekends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was always kind of like a running joke that, and at the point I don't even remember anymore. Like one of us wanted three kids and one of us wanted two. Mm-hmm.
01:28:17
Speaker
And we're like, well, this way we both get what we want. We'll just have two living kids and a third angel baby. And then we both get our aunt, you know? And so it was kind of a joke.
01:28:30
Speaker
Again, all coping mechanisms and ways to- Yeah, because humor becomes that sometimes too. It becomes that way of kind of coping too. So then, take us then a little bit of the now then, of the now. So it's now 10 years. I want to go back actually.
Birth of Sharing Solace
01:28:52
Speaker
Let's see. How long ago did you start your company? And then afterwards, let's move on to what happened last year that you just released this year. So I'm like, whoa, let's just jump because. So all this, everything you've gone through, all this grief has now birthed, birthed something different. So let's talk about these births.
01:29:20
Speaker
So it was pretty much five years almost to the day of, it was almost exactly Madeleine's fifth birthday when like a bolt of lightning, the idea and the concept behind sharing solace hit me like a bolt of lightning. It was crazy.
01:29:41
Speaker
Sharing solace. That's the name of your company. Okay. So sharing solace. Okay. So you get the name. Does the name come to your mind? Does the idea of what it's got? What is it that came in that moment? The aha moment as Oprah would say. Yes. Feeling of what needed to be in the world. I didn't have a name. I didn't have like, I had a general idea, but not really a fully formed concept. I had.
01:30:11
Speaker
Okay. There needs to be this thing that you keep for as long as you need it. And then you give it to somebody else as you're moving through your grief. And that's, that's what I started with. And it was like, so the concept, you had the concept. Yeah. And so the, the, the now a little bit more polished form of sharing solace.
01:30:36
Speaker
Our true mission is to help grievers grieve and lovers love those that are grieving. And so what we do is we have a tangible gift. So we have a necklace and a key chain. And the idea is that you keep it near your heart as long as it brings you comfort and solace as you move along your own grief journey. And at some point, I hope you realize that that
01:31:05
Speaker
that keepsake doesn't bring you the same comfort that it once did. And at that point you're actually intended to pay it forward to somebody else that you know or that you don't know that's grieving their own unique loss with the idea that each of these pieces has a unique identifier on them that allows you to register it on our website and actually follow it as it moves from person to person.
01:31:33
Speaker
It's just so beautiful. I think it's still, it's just so beautiful. I love that. Now in that, in that journey that I, and this is something that I even asked you when we were talking, I'm like, do people actually give, do they get so attached? Cause maybe you're ready, but I'm like, you.
01:31:48
Speaker
maybe not want to get give that part of the keepsake away away like and by the way i'll put the website on the show notes everyone so you can you can get these because i believe these would be beautiful ways of being able to share with somebody that maybe's gone through a grief you don't necessarily have to buy some flowers you can buy something like this or you also have all these other
01:32:11
Speaker
Um, things on your website, correct? Not just this particular kinds of developed to different, different things, right? Do you have a grieving? Yeah. You have a journal, correct? Do you have a grief journal or gratitude journal, gratitude journal, a gratitude journal. Yep.
01:32:27
Speaker
Yes. Love that. Yeah. That I think is so important. Yeah. Okay. So yeah. So I was asking you, I'm like, yeah, do people just keep it? Do they, do they actually give it away? They're little. So yes and no. I would probably like take it off and put it like in my jewelry box. I'm like, okay, I'm ready. But I've put it in my jewelry box for now so that I can wear it if I need it again. Um,
01:32:54
Speaker
Well, and part of that is why it's actually two pieces. And so you're intended to keep one piece because you never truly get over grief. Let's be honest. Yes. Yes. You're right. You know, and so it kind of symbolizes you're still a whole person. You just are missing a little bit. And then you pay forward the middle piece to someone else in a new token, in a new locket that
01:33:22
Speaker
allows them to register it on the website and help them through their own grief process. Because I felt like at some point in my life, I needed to release the debilitating grief. I would always grieve, but I needed to let go of that super heavy, mad at the world grief. Yes. And so that's kind of what I hope the symbolizes.
Writing 'Confessions of a Griever'
01:33:51
Speaker
Yeah, and this is your, as we said, you birthed this idea into being and now paying it forward to others by sharing this. And then tell us about what happened then last, about last summer or so, that then was a journey of the last year.
01:34:11
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Yeah. So last summer, some guy reached out to me. That sounds creepy, doesn't it? No. He was a professor at Georgetown. And so I wrote a book.
01:34:28
Speaker
crazy is that I'm like in a year I want to hear when you said that I'm like oh my gosh and just in a year that's amazing so he reached out and he and so he walked you through to how to be able to do this yes pretty much yeah yeah I wrote this book and the launch date of the book was of course Madeline's birthday May 19th 2020
01:34:55
Speaker
So her birthday present this year was a book in the Library of Congress. Her 10 years, her 10 year. And then, um, now this book, tell us a little bit, the name of the book and then a little bit of the premise of it. Oh yeah. I, I'm kind of in love with the title. Um, it's called Confessions of a Griever, turning a hot mess into an oat message, laughable lessons for when life just sucks.
01:35:25
Speaker
Oh, love that. Love that. Say it one more time, say it one more time. Confessions of a greever. Confessions of a greever. Yes. Yeah. Confessions of a greever turning a hot mess into an oat message, laughable lessons for when life just sucks.
01:35:50
Speaker
Because sometimes it just does. It does. And it's okay. And it's okay to have those, as you said, laughable messages, you know, laughable moments to within those moments of when it's sucking. And then I liked what you told me of what it is. It's kind of like the choose your own narrative type of book. Is that correct? Exactly. A little bit? Yes. So it's a little bit my story, of course, because I think that
01:36:20
Speaker
My hope is that by sharing my story, I can encourage others to share their story of grief as well. So it's a little bit my story. It's a little bit self-help, so there's tips and tricks in there. But it's a choose your own grief guide. So at the end of every chapter, you get options of where you want to go next. So you're not supposed to read the book cover to cover. You're supposed to flip around.
01:36:46
Speaker
And that is because there is no real guideline or even map line. There's no guideline to grief either. It doesn't come in any particular order. I love
Closing Reflections on Grief and Gratitude
01:36:59
Speaker
that vision. Grief is not linear, so why should a book about grief be linear? Why would it be? I love that.
01:37:04
Speaker
I love it. I'm going to say you're a genius, but at the same time, let me just say the fact that you were able to hold on to that inspiration, because I feel like inspiration is there and those that grasp it and are able to put it on to the world, just like sharing solace came to you like that lightning bolt. However we want to feel and whoever we want to feel was part of that journey of you having.
01:37:32
Speaker
that lightning bolt moment of knowing that this is how you were going to move on with your grief. And then this next chapter, literal chapter with now the book of your journey of grief, have all just been these beautiful ways of your process of healing and mourning and that now you're able to, you know, to give others those pieces of comfort and solace, like you say, sharing solace.
01:37:58
Speaker
in this. So that's just beautiful. A lot of beautiful things that have come from something so hard. So thank you. Thank you for moving that recliner bed out of the living room and then allowing all these other things to come to the world too in that process.
01:38:27
Speaker
So, Crystal, it's been an honor to have you on. And thank you. And I'm going to be putting those things on the show notes. I want to buy your book. I want to choose my own brief story. And I was actually thinking this week, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm about to interview Crystal. And I haven't bought her book yet. I guess I should have read her book before I had her book. But I'll just read along with the listeners then. I'll be reading along with everybody else. So thank you once again. Thank you.
01:39:00
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:39:28
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.