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TSR Book Club: You Complicate Me by Isabel Jordan
54 Plays4 days ago
This month, we dig deep on the reasons this fluffy romcom didn't work for us, because you can do literary analysis on any piece of media if you read it carefully.
(Note: this is a slightly edited version of the episode)
Buy You Complicate Me: Amazon | Bookshop | Libro.fm
Show notes at smutreport.com/podcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Book Selection
00:00:00
Speaker
ah navy copyright The copyright is supposed to be from the original publication or conception date. Maybe she filed a copyright two years after she published it. but Or maybe she's self though. yeah I mean, she could have done it wrong, but that's not how copyright works.
00:00:20
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Smut Report podcast. This is our book club week and I, Erin, chose the book this week so I will...
00:00:32
Speaker
be the host i feel like i feel like the conversations that we've had are relatively unscripted so i don't know that matters yes exactly whoever hosts is i think supposed to keep everyone on track but we don't do very good job we don't do very good what is track what is that so i'm aaron i'm ingrid and i'm holly that was our best one yet Yeah. so this month for our book club pick, I chose You Complicate Me by Isabel Jordan, which was a book that I had on my TBR. I am pretty sure that I got it during a Stuff Your Kindle Day. yeah.
00:01:16
Speaker
at That tracks because I also had it buried in the deep recesses of my Kindle, which I found out when I got it from the library and then was like, read with Kindle. And it's like, you already have this in your library.
Exploring the Book's Theme and Plot
00:01:30
Speaker
yeah Okay. Sorry. move I've been much more selective about what I get on Stuff Your Kindle days in the past couple years because the first few times that we did it was like ridiculously overwhelming. And now i have, you know, a couple hundred books stuffed way in the recesses of my Kindle that I like, I don't even know where this came from. Why did I pick it up?
00:01:54
Speaker
Exactly what you're talking about because I did my first Stuff Your Kindle day, I think last year. And it has now become its own pile of doom yeah where I'm like, I can't do it. I can't read these books. do you know what i mean?
00:02:06
Speaker
Yeah. How that happens. Yeah. I mean, and I look through, I'm like, why did I get this who cow book? Like, what was I thinking? Yeah.
00:02:20
Speaker
I'm curious, Holly. Well, maybe we'll read it for a book club. Well, that would be an experience, I'm sure. It sure would. So this is just a contemporary romance. It's supposed to be kind of rom-com-y, according to the marketing. And...
00:02:38
Speaker
It's not super long. There's not much to say about it, but we can get into our basic top four things. I did want to ask before we start, because I'm real curious. Does anyone know when this was published? Okay, yeah. It was published in 2018, yeah. Needless to say, it was in the teens.
00:02:54
Speaker
Yeah. So yes so it's a going on 10 years old. Okay. So 10 years old. So I'm channeling Ingrid from. You don't have to channel your older self. I just, I just, I just, for reasons that will become apparent, I'm just channeling to see where in time this took place on our shared humanity time span. Like right around when we were starting the blog and all our children were very small.
00:03:19
Speaker
Yes. Okay. I got it. I'm in the mindset. I know where we are in time and space. We're good. Okay. Okay. So what is our heat factor for this book? Okay. Our heat factor for this book is they're real horny for each other.
00:03:35
Speaker
like ri like real horny for each other. they go all night long without sleep. It's real problematic. Yeah. But the reader gets almost no details about it. That's true true. That is true.
00:03:52
Speaker
hadn't thought about that. So there's a lot of sex, but like not a lot on page. It's like, and then I was screaming all night long, but doesn't say why or... What brought that about? There is some sliding and things like that. Yeah, there's a little bit, but it's not. It's not a minute by minute. There's no minute by minute. That's a really good point, Holly. It's no action by action. Yeah, see? I'm glad you did the key factor, Holly, because I was very checked into how horny they were. Yeah, that you almost miss it.
00:04:22
Speaker
But it yeah, okay. yeah Okay.
Character Chemistry and Tropes
00:04:24
Speaker
So, okay, Ingrid, how about the character chemistry? Well, for character chemistry, I was going to just highlight that, in fact, they have the character chemistry of literally almost every rom-com couple from the movies, from probably 2000s through the teens.
00:04:44
Speaker
It is, huh if you think about it, they they even call out Sandra Bullock in it because yeah it's literally you got how to lose a guy in 10 days type stuff. You've got Sandra Bullock type stuff. It is every rom-com from the 2000s and the teens. That's the chemistry. I'm beautiful.
00:05:01
Speaker
You're beautiful. We can't keep our hands off each other. But we have but we're so kind feelings about why we can't be together. Yes. Yes. yeah Okay. Like emotional maturity. Go ahead. Next. Plot.
00:05:13
Speaker
Okay. So the plot of this book is ah pretty basic rom-com setup, I guess, if we're sticking to type. Grace and Nick meet, awkwardly. on a flight to their siblings weddings so they're not related they're related to each the bride and their groom respectively and both of them think that these kids are too young and dumb to be getting married and the couple that's marrying is 19 so they're not wrong yes they are too young and dumb dumb to get married
00:05:46
Speaker
And their horniness turns into a sort of vacation romance. Meanwhile, family relationships, plus their own history and traumas, basic traumas, like he's abandoned. His mom went to jail and died in prison or something. And he comes from a poor background and she is divorced, basically. And her husband was not good to her. So basic. Their basic dramas plus their family. Sure, hardships. Their hardships and their family drama gets messy and moves the plot forward.
00:06:24
Speaker
i Yeah. That's about it. I mean, yeah, it's just, yeah, I think that that covers it. All right. And it all takes place, like, all of it, other than maybe what, the first chapter or two chapters and the last chapter takes place, like, in the hotel. Yeah.
00:06:40
Speaker
Very limited setting. they It's really constricted in a bunch of different ways. Yes. Like, it's not a huge, it's not a big wedding party. It's a set period. It's a restricted period of time. It is a snapshot. It's just high intensity.
00:06:52
Speaker
And it's like a week, right? Yeah. It's like a week. There's like seven people that they're that they interact with the whole time. yeah Yeah. And it's all, almost all in one place. Mm-hmm.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So what are your overalls? Holly, what's your overall? I had some major problems with this book. i had major problems with the romance and whether this was a good and satisfying happy ending and a good and satisfying relationship. And i had even bigger problems with the worldview of this book and the way endings issues and characters were handled by the author. Can't wait to discuss. yeah overall I really, the reason I brought ah up the time period hat was that I feel like I had similar feelings with Holly. It's not like I read the book and I was like, I hate it. This is the worst. i
00:07:53
Speaker
really did though i have to put on a hat where I was like, this is a very different kind of book for me. I had to read it with a very critical goggles on. Because if I read it for myself, I would be like, well, that was something. If I read it as a reviewer, I have to acknowledge that there are probably some people who would really like it.
00:08:11
Speaker
so I mean, people like all kinds of stupid things. So. Okay. Well, we all serve a purpose in this review triad that we have. And mine is one where I'm like, everyone is included. So yeah, we can get into it more later. But I i had mixed. I'll say that. I had mixed feelings about it It was mixed. There were moments where I was like, ha ha. And there were moments where I was like, oh my.
00:08:36
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Aaron, how about you? ah Well, don't be offended, Holly. But my initial thought was this is like the rosé contemporary romance. Yeah.
00:08:49
Speaker
i say I'm not offended. said don't be offended because I drink nothing but rosé because I'm a basic bitch. Except now, wait, my basic bitchiness has upped a level.
00:09:02
Speaker
So now i drink rosé, but sometimes white, but only mixed with sparkling water. i love this. Holly, are we the same person? No.
00:09:16
Speaker
I too am that basic bitch. And you know what? To really level it up a little bit, you if you especially if you're doing white wine, it's just like a splash of grapefruit juice. Pomplamoose.
00:09:27
Speaker
Pomplamoose. Same thing. Yeah. I will take it one more basic bitch step further, Holly, and tell you that I am now at the age where beverages are never quite hot or cold enough. So I put ice in mine. don't know.
00:09:46
Speaker
So there you go. Yeah. People are always like no, because it melts and it waters it down. Yeah, good. I need that. I'm too old for this. I want it watered down. I want like mild fun. I don't want to feel relaxed even after I have it. I just want a little, a little bit of fun. You hear what i'm saying?
00:10:05
Speaker
You're right. I wasn't relaxed. so you're right, Erin. I wasn't relaxed after this book and there was a tiny little bit of fun in it Exactly. i was just like, this is like, I feel mildly offended a lot. And then every now and again, she pulls out something that's like, okay, you got there. and then then was like, I think the thing that kind of killed it for me was after our last conversation. where we were talking about reader interpretation and how meaty the character was and how the author's not spelling it out for you. And then we get to the end and it was like, let me explain every single moment that we just talked about you.
00:10:47
Speaker
This is a very basic book. like So I think I agree with Ingrid in that regard where it's like, I can see where contemporary romance readers would enjoy this book. yeah Especially if you're just looking for a popcorn-y, like, yeah I don't have to think about it, Reid. I just think I, we can't really turn our brains off that way. And yeah.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, you yeah not a book this is not a book that would lend itself well to literary analysis. Let's say that. want to maybe dispute that because I think the literary analysis is what's going to give us, ah because I agree with Holly, that the worldview of this book is, I think, what kind of put me off it also. but What were you going to say, Ingrid? Tell me more about why. the The main reason I say so is because I feel like it's one of those books where it's It's kind of like a hotel room.
00:11:38
Speaker
Like, you want to check for bed bugs, but you don't want to look too close. Do you know what i mean? Like... You want to look for the big stuff, but if you really start pulling out drawers and looking in corners and checking under, they under its you won't really be very happy about it. do you know what i mean? So like if you want to just enjoy a book and not think about it too hard, like that is the purpose. That is the service that this book provides. Like you said, she hands it right over all neatly wrapped in a bow. If we're just going to go with all the metaphors and similes today, it's like building a dresser from Ikea. It has all the tools in it. You don't have to like bring anything to the table for this one.
00:12:13
Speaker
What are you talking about? Building a dresser from Ikea is really challenging. Okay, let's keep it similar. Building a wall shelf. I don't know.
Problematic Aspects of the Characters and Relationship
00:12:20
Speaker
It's got everything included. The tools are in it. It's got the instructions. It spells it all out. It has pictures of little people telling you how to bend and lift things. like You don't have to think about when you're reading this book very much. what Building like ah one of those little coffee tables. There you go. One of ones called, they only have four, five pieces. Yes, a Lack coffee table It takes you five minutes.
00:12:39
Speaker
There's not even any screws. Like, you're good. Anyway, point is, it's pretty basic. It's a surface level type situation here. If you go too deep, you won't like it. You won't. And that's probably why we were all like, oh, boy. ah Right. So let's dig into that. And let's start off at the beginning because i opened this book and I was like, wow, this guy's gross.
00:13:01
Speaker
The guy? the guy? Nick? Is where you started with? I mean, just him let's see if I can even find I highlighted so much stuff he's just like such a pig in the first couple chapters yeah well no like the first thing we hear from him is she's has flight anxiety she took a valium before she got on the plane she's sitting there clearly freaking out and he's sitting next to her on the seat and he's like how about you drink some wine Like, that's kind of a gross thing to say to a stranger who is, like, clearly anxious and upset about what's happening.
00:13:38
Speaker
And he's an air marshal! Like, he should know better. He does apologize later, Holly. Yeah, after he's like, oh yeah, maybe I shouldn't have given you all that tequila, like... Well, no, ever first of all, I would, I wish that I wrote it down. She got herself the tequila. I wish that I had written it down because it wasn't just a Valium and a glass of wine and a little bit of tequila. It was Valium, a glass of wine, and then hard liquor plus another Valium.
00:14:03
Speaker
Like, it was enough to give like- another hard liquor. It was two tequilas. Yeah. It was bad news bears. Like, go to the hospital type intoxication. Yeah. It was not good. Yeah. So then she, of course, barfs, which probably saved her life. So it was a lot. So that's when we were like, ew, the hero. I was like, o her. She's bad, too. Both of them are so Both of them are bad. they were both very messy.
00:14:28
Speaker
she The reason they start talking to each other is because she's like loopy after having the Valium plus the wine and maybe also the first tequila and is like trying to take off her sweater or something and like clocks them in the face. And then they have this, I think it's supposed to be banter, but it's just ick.
00:14:48
Speaker
Yeah. The whole first conversation is like, ew. Because she's all like, how dare you? Even though she is super messy and not really being a responsible adult or holding herself accountable for any of her decisions. I think you just nailed the book in one sentence.
00:15:06
Speaker
We're done here. We did it. That's it. Put a bow on it. We're done. Basically that they're big messes. Both of them are big messes and don't take any accountability for their decisions. Check.
00:15:18
Speaker
Got it. We got it. Like the whole time. But it's interesting that you say that, Erin. So but you you were like right in the middle of what you were saying because she you were saying that like they don't make a good impression because she's messy and she doesn't take accountability for her decisions. and Well, and he is being this kind of misogynistic pig dude. Like the way he's talking to her, I would not talk to stranger. There's a lot of leering.
00:15:39
Speaker
At all. Blatant leering. Yeah. Well, then we come into the horniness that Holly was talking about, too I mean, I don't mind a little like, oh, he's pretty. Those types of observations, they would flow naturally. But this like immediate like.
00:15:55
Speaker
That doesn't bother me. I'm so horny over your giant knockers. don't think I'm like, oh, that's too much too fast. I mean, that I i feel like that's a thing. Like, do I think that people would be so bold as to say some of the things that they said to each other? Probably not. But the insta-less thing, like that's legit. Some people like you just see each other and you're like, oh, my goodness, you take all the boxes. don't It makes sense. But that might just be me.
00:16:22
Speaker
what What got me? Raise your hand. If you were reading the first couple of chapters, we can raise a ah verbal hand. And you were like, oh, good. She's not like the other girls.
00:16:36
Speaker
Oh, I actually was thinking about we should have a conversation about what is meant by not like other girls, but for a tumble reads because I was reading this and I was like, huh. Yeah, we should list out the ingredients because i was sitting there and the intensity with which I slapped my leg when she gave her.
00:16:53
Speaker
him the moon eyes and was like, I ordered all this food because I have such a high metabolism and I can't gain any weight and I get so hungry and I'm so embarrassed eating in front of other people. And he was like, oh, you poor thing. You just don't feel embarrassed. You eat whatever you want. And she ordered enough for like a linebacker. Yeah. And I was like, okay. Yeah. you're tiny with huge boobs and you're saying, really? And you're going like eat three hamburgers. Yeah. Because you're a cool girl. I think it's not the not like the other girls. It's like you're a cool girl. She's a cool girl. And that very specific, you're right, 2018. It's like that very specific 2018 gone girl
00:17:33
Speaker
long girl way Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. that's Right? Like, cool girl TM. Yep, there it is. yeah So yeah, but I was like, really? off come on. Not that I don't like seeing characters steering away from salads. That's eat like food is nourishment and we need it to survive. You know, that kind of thing. On the flip side, just because it was one of those things where it was like one of the first moments of vulnerability between the two of them. And that's what it was. And I was like, really? Like, you're bonding over her being vulnerable about how she's
00:18:04
Speaker
yeah I mean well there's there's like a lot of weird food stuff in this book so much weird food stuff okay a lot of weird food stuff in this book so maybe we should put a pin in this yeah Erin where I don't even know where we are in this conversation well okay so I said let's start at the beginning and we talked about this gross kind of start and honestly if we weren't gonna discuss it I might have just been like never mind I probably picked it up initially because it was supposed to be like a cute little rom-com yeah during my earlier contemporary years but I don't need it now but here we are talking about it so at what point did we hit the little bits of fun that we talked about before and I would also like to discuss some of the other content maybe more in depth as we move forward into the book Holly that you were talking about in the your initial overall comments Okay. I mean, because I have problems with the relationship and I have problems with the worldview. And so maybe we should separate <unk> those. Yeah. So like, I think Ingrid was right about, you know, it's like rom-com energy. And I think a lot of what the dynamic that the author was trying to achieve with this book was, is there's like a little bit of like uptown girl thing and she is a lawyer and he never went to college and you know of course they're both really hot obviously but and everybody feels the need to comment on it and everybody feels the need to comment on it Well, and also all of their family members comment on it also. And they both feel like the other person can do better because because she don't know she's beautiful.
00:19:48
Speaker
Classic, not like the other girls. I had that song running in my head the whole time. Oh my God. Right? She don't know she's beautiful. So when people are like, you choose them, she thinks that they're talking about him because he's so much hotter than she is. And he thinks that they're talking about her because...
00:20:07
Speaker
she's so much better educated than he is right and so that's kind of where their hang-up is which like fine and i think it's kind of meant to be their opposites or they seem like opposites on the surface because they have these different life backgrounds basically all tying to class and But they like really get each other. And there are references to like they stay up talking all night and she like has him watch TV with her. And there's this like extensive caretaking sequence because she gets food poisoning. Which I would like to discuss further, by the way.
00:20:46
Speaker
Okay. I feel like those are the places where there was potential for cuteness, but those are all summarized. Just like the sex scene. We're told that they have this great connection. They have these long conversations talking about everything and nothing, but we don't actually see any of it.
00:21:01
Speaker
There's a lot of the intimacy, both emotionally and physically. i but i agree with you 100%. It almost takes Paige between the lines. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. know Except for the barfing.
00:21:14
Speaker
And there is so much barfing. There is a lot of barfing. Although even some of the barfing takes place between the lines. It's just after the fact. It's like, she's like, oh yeah, and I barfed on his shoes. Multiple times. more Yes. but Multiple times. In no...
00:21:28
Speaker
Scenario. Young, old, child, adult, middle-aged. Have I ever barfed as much as she barfed and as aggressively as she barfed and been totally fine to eat food within like, what, 24 hours? ah $40. Is that what she wanted to do? 72 hours. They were together for one week and she spent three of that barfing. Well, no, I thought she only spent the first day barfing and then two days just like lying in bed feeling sorry for herself. Right. That's still three days. That's still three days. And so she's sick for three out of seven days.
00:22:02
Speaker
And they're still like, it says, oh, I felt terrible. But then she acts completely fine and is off gallivanting and making out in corridors. Yeah. Et cetera and so forth. It just for me, maybe because I'm too old for this, maybe if I were younger, I would have been like, oh, yeah, fine. She's totally fine. But like I was like, dude, no, my mouth wouldn't feel right. 48 hours after barfing that much. Like forget. I wouldn't have the appetite to look someone in the eyes.
00:22:28
Speaker
like make eye contact after feeling that being that sick. I don't think that I could like go socialize or let alone started intimate relationship with someone. It would never, that it did not track. I just didn't buy it.
00:22:39
Speaker
No one feels good enough for hanky panky and all night marathon. Also, biggie you're telling me that she wouldn't be a little bit concerned about rebound coming out the other. It just, I didn't buy it.
00:22:51
Speaker
you i don't think you're to three days of barfing and two hangovers, two hangovers and three days of barfing. I want to point that out in in a week. It's a lot. Some unhealthy behaviors here. So, okay. Is that the relationship building component? Like, Ingrid, you were unable to suspend your disbelief because the short window of time managed to create this space of, like, we've got the sickbed scenes and the caretaking opportunities, but at the same time, they're supposed to be building their relationship and there just, like, wasn't enough time?
00:23:25
Speaker
Yeah, it felt too compressed. And I think I actually really like a good caretaking scene. So like the part where he's totally finding that they just met and he's taking care of her. And it really launches the emotional intimacy ahead. it It serves a purpose. For me, there's like, it's like a pendulum, right? A little bit of sick. If it's like, oh, I had twisted my ankle on the stair. And he's like, ah Get an ice pack. Call a doctor. that's That's like an overreaction to a minimal physical ailment.
00:23:54
Speaker
But the other end of the pendulum is this person's really sick and then you guys are just like fine. Like I don't buy that. For example, in a crime book when someone gets shot multiple times in the gut and then is like standing up and like fighting for their woman. Like...
00:24:07
Speaker
Guys, that's too much. And for me, this was veering toward that direction where I'm like, homegirl was sick to death, like so pretty severe food poisoning for multiple days.
00:24:18
Speaker
And I just, it made it really hard for me to believe that she would be capable of any of the stuff that she did. So what you're saying is if she had stayed in bed for 24 hours and then had two days where she wasn't feeling well, but at least left her hotel room.
00:24:33
Speaker
Correct. You might have bought it. Yes. The multiple days hold up and how bad she must have felt. h It took it straight into unbelievable territory for me. And yeah, it made it difficult for me to buy that they were that they were able. Because like when you're that sick, you're not really. I'm sorry. I don't care how hot he is. Like it's probably coming out both ends. Like she was real sick, you know, and they're just it just I didn't buy it And that was just one little thing that really bugged me.
00:25:02
Speaker
I want to tie this into what Holly was talking about, too, though, with the cute moments of the relationship development. Like, okay, Holly, this is maybe what you're talking about.
Romantic Dynamics and Character Development
00:25:11
Speaker
there's She's like a hot mess on the floor. There's one point he's like, I'll lift you up and carry you to bed. And she's like, sure, that sounds great. It's been like three minutes since I last vomited. How could that possibly go wrong? And then he does like a cute little forehead kiss or like brushes her hair back or something. It's like, it doesn't matter to me. I'll take care of you forever. Right. Like, that's the cute thing. Yeah.
00:25:32
Speaker
But it's mixed in with this, like, and then he deadlifts extremely dire. Yeah, obviously, because he's quite fit. So maybe it's just this is a lot of exaggeration, but let's take this further to Hollywood, like track it all the way to the end. So the relationship is building what's working and what's not working. And then what where did it lose you? OK, so I think and then also what's working for me is like her her family is awful. right and that's just that's just the dynamic and we can come back to that because i have thoughts about how her family's portrayed but her family's awful and they're awful to him and they're awful to her and he just like
00:26:19
Speaker
sits next to her at the table and holds her hand and kind of deals with it and this goes into the caretaking thing right oh because part of the dynamic is her mother and this is a very intimate wedding it's like her brother his sister getting married and the guests are the two of them and her parents and her grandma and his aunt and her ex-husband who yeah her mother invited to try to get them back together. Right. Oh yeah. And her cousin, who's like a brother to her.
00:26:51
Speaker
I blocked him out. Yuck. um Yuck. He's the hero of the next book. Yuck. Not going to be reading that one. But he is pretty chill about it. And when her ex is doing his thing and she's like, no thanks, he backs her up. And sometimes he backs her up in not great ways. But sometimes he's like, yeah, but you never apologized. And she's like, you're right. You never apologized. Right. And so like he mostly in the gross times has her back.
00:27:21
Speaker
Except when he's feeling jealous and insecure, in which case he lashes out. Oh, and he goes for the jugular when he does that too. Yeah, in like super not cool ways. And also amidst all of this, the siblings who are getting married, there's some issues going on there. they Like they're trying not to intervene. They're trying not to intervene. And eventually she...
00:27:44
Speaker
intervenes But kind of like only when asked to do so, when it becomes like really necessary. i think the part of that is we can argue whether or not it's actually an intervention. But it's behind closed doors. Right. And so this is another place where Nick is feeling insecure.
00:28:04
Speaker
Yes. And lashes out, right? Yeah. Because I feel like any reasonable person having been in that room would not call that a particular intervention. Right. Yeah. like So yeah, anyway, Grace, in the end, helps Sadie, who is the younger sister, abscond and not get married. And Nick gets real mad and lashes out and goes for the jugular. And immediately is like, oh shit, that was bad and apologizes. And she shuts him down is like, no, this is not gonna work. And this is this is their breakup at the end. And like, up until this point, what readers might find desirable about this is that Nick is generally a super alpha hero, but with really strong caretaking.
00:28:49
Speaker
Right. There's a lot of caretaking in this book. And he he's like, you of course, you wouldn't leave your job. Like, I'll move to where you live. Like, of course, I i want to be with you. It's like this very overwhelming.
00:29:03
Speaker
he is just really into her and really into the relationship. And I think that's kind of what is attractive about this book. Because ah this is a question, but I was going to phrase it as a sentence because the caretaking and the all in is written with a view to like the female gaze kind of like. Yes, yes.
00:29:26
Speaker
Yeah. Well, cause like she is, she gets to have kind of it all because she finds him. So like she has the high powered career and he's going adapt to her. Like it just, it's so it's easy for her. Yes.
00:29:41
Speaker
He makes it easy for her. Yes. And it says you complicate me is the title. And that's a thing they talk about. It's like, Oh, you make my life so complicated, but it doesn't. His whole point is to Ingrid is right. He is making life easier for her. in all of these different ways except when he uh feels jealous and insecure and lashes out which is also where i feel like the romance breaks down yeah i want to talk about that more the caretaking or the lashing out part well and backing up a little bit more because we were talking about how he provides something for her and i'm curious to hear what you guys think she provides for him
00:30:21
Speaker
Well, for me, if I can just jump in, i I think Holly might break it down further as she gets into where the relationships break down. But i I think that's also what I mean when I'm thinking of this book as written for the female gaze. And I think it ties in a little bit to what we see in older category romances that are written with only the heroine's pov kind of a situation where although this is dual pov i do want to make it is dual pov yes but i think it is speaking to this what you said ingrid she gets everything and it doesn't matter what he gets he gets her yeah i guess is what that's what that's kind of the mentality i read
00:31:02
Speaker
Right. and And he has a whole speech that he gives his sister about like, what does love mean? And it's that you can't wait to see this person every day and you hear a joke and you want to tell it to them. And it's all about how he supports her because he gets to be with her.
00:31:17
Speaker
And that's one of the things I was curious about because like you said, Erin, how it feels like an older romance. Like when I was asking about the time period in the beginning, in my head, in discussing this further, that's kind of one of the things that makes it feel older. I feel like more recently published books tend to focus more on like a balance between the two.
00:31:37
Speaker
Maybe just the ones we're reading. i mean, I... I don't know if I agree with that. so not not not Maybe it's because I'm reading a ton of romanticy. Now, I still think it's heavily favored toward the the heroine. I do.
00:31:50
Speaker
But I do see more of like emotional caretaking or goal-oriented support, stuff like that for both people in the couple. But we hear that's a bigger conversation. And I'm more curious because in this book, the reason I asked that question was because I was curious. It felt like we were kind of shifting into where the relationship breaks down.
00:32:07
Speaker
And I felt like it was good to kind of preface that dynamic. You're right. And so basically the relationship breaks down in these moments of insecurity he has, which now that Ingrid mentioned that since she doesn't give anything to him in this relationship besides herself and He's already insecure about the class difference between them. Very insecure.
00:32:31
Speaker
And since they're American and not British, the class is written in a way that, like, if they were British, it would be way more. But but he's very insecure about this. Do you also think the abandonment issues that he has, and he's the older sibling... yeah And he was the sister's caretaker. And so the moment that happens where the sister goes to Grace for help, basically, she doesn't ask her brother to help her ex-cond, even though he was with her before, like right before Grace goes in, Nick was with her. But then Grace goes in and it's like, can you talk to her? And that's when this happens. And his insecurity is also coming from...
00:33:11
Speaker
He's this caretaker, right? He's this caretaker. And he was not the one who was asked to be a caretaker for his sister. So the only like his self-defense mechanism in that moment is you did something, which is when he lashes out at Grace. And, you know, it doesn't take him long to recognize his error. But the lash out was harsh. Yeah. Extremely harsh. always public. It's harsh and public. It's harsh and public. Both times. He lashes out at her twice. The earlier time is like about her relationship with her ex-husband. Yeah. Right. And her ex wants to talk to her and she's like fine. And he's like.
00:33:50
Speaker
he she doesn't want to talk to you And she's like, no, let me talk to him. And he gets all mad and says some even worse, I think. Yeah. Deeply un-okay things to her. Yeah. In front of her ex. But the class difference might also be highlighted, not necessarily because of the actual class difference. It's like stemming from his insecurities, would you say? It's illustrated with respect to his insecurities. the Yes.
00:34:14
Speaker
Yes. Like, and also he's an air marshal now. So it's not like, it's not like he's a truck driver or something. Like I feel like an air marshal is kind of a high prestige job. Socially, yeah, more so than a truck driver. Not that there's anything wrong with being a truck driver, but socially, if you'd be like, oh, this is my air marshal, you know, people are gonna be like, oh, more likely than. Right.
00:34:33
Speaker
Than like, oh, this is my gas station owner or whatever. Yes, that's fair. even there's even like a flight attendant and then who's like oh you're here for a hot air marshal if you don't get married give me his number right he he's like clearly shown to be desirable but so he apologizes later and she's like i forgive you but this is not gonna work and she breaks up with him and then she goes and like drinks some bottles of vodka mixed with ice cream yes smirnoff smoothies smirnoff smoothies i was a little bit uncomfortable with the amount of alcohol in this book actually well i assumed that when she was like there's four bottles of alcohol i assumed they were mini bar mini bar bottles that would not be enough to give her a hangover i think they were bigger than that i'm sorry no they went to the liquor store he said i went and got this at the medical supply store next to the liquor store when he gives gage gives her an ivy
00:35:30
Speaker
to the point where I feel like between the scene with how much she ingests in the beginning and then how much vodka she drinks at the end, it it reads like somebody who maybe doesn't know how to, yeah just isn't a realistic amount for and for anyone to ingest. It isn't. Yes. yeah that's gro That's alcoholism. Anyway, the point is, she gets all drunk and then explains, because we gotta explain to the reader why she broke up with Nick.
00:35:59
Speaker
Which, do you feel like that was consistent with what happened? No! And I wanted to point this out. no I am so tired of characters being like, it is clear in the text, contextual evidence, why they make a choice. And then not a chapter later, they're like, just kidding. It was because of this totally different issue. And they don't even go into the fact that like, you said
Realism and Resolution in Romance
00:36:19
Speaker
why it was. And it made sense. And now you're saying, it was because I was scared of...
00:36:23
Speaker
Oh, full hockey. Like this is going to be your marriage. I hope you like that. That's going to be your marriage.
00:36:44
Speaker
Anytime he doesn't feel secure in what's happening, he is going to publicly say the worst thing he can think of to you.
00:36:54
Speaker
And that is one of those things that I find i agree with you completely, Holly. There are very few things where I'm like, immediately takes me out of rooting for the couple. Like, do you feel that way too? There are very few things where I'm like, okay, you can't. But the fact that he does this as a pattern, it's a pattern that is very bad news bears. That is like end the relationship immediately until someone goes to therapy, bad news bears. And I also feel like it was said a lot that when they were reconciling and making up, it's like, no, no, we have something here.
00:37:21
Speaker
It might be complicated, but we will figure it out. That is punting a now problem to future you and you don't have a solution. How am I supposed to root for you as a couple if he's just like, we'll figure it out?
00:37:34
Speaker
Who's we? You have the problem. You figure it out. Do you know what i mean? Yeah. Did you guys also notice that? I didn't, but I feel like it we're talking about the exact same issue. yes so Yeah. Well, yeah so my thought here was this is where I landed. And I think we're kind of all in the same place, but maybe coming at it from slightly different angles is I read this as an HFN actually, because it's only been a week. So they're like, I love you. This is ridiculous. I can't love you after a week, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah But that's This is all illustrating why you don't make life decisions after knowing someone for a week. Like regardless of whether or not you love each other, you need the time to process some of these things and figure out if they're workable or not. Right? Like... He could go to therapy and really get his stuff together. he's not going to do it right now. He hasn't done it yet. now Maybe this is the impetus that he needs to recognize that he needs to address his emotional regulation. That's a good point. Or not.
00:38:36
Speaker
ah like But yeah, I was like, add this this all here is why you do not marry someone after a week. Holly, did you think it was a happily for now or did you think it was it was a happily ever after? Well, I mean, I was like, ooh, ooh, that's where we're leaving it. Oh, because then to be clear, he like leaves the hotel after the apology that fails. And then she rom-coms after him into the airport. oh yeah. Onto the plane. Onto the plane. She buys a ticket and she apologizes to him. She's the one who grovels. And I'm just like, no. I mean. Okay.
00:39:15
Speaker
i Question. Obviously, he can't apologize to you again because he did and you said no. and so I'd be mad about that, too, if he kept stalking you. Right. That's true. But i I did not feel good about where where it ended, basically. And I think it was meant to be read as an HEA.
00:39:34
Speaker
But I take Aaron's point that, like, if you maybe if you read it as an HFN, you could say, okay, well. maybe they'll be happy for a year and like, that's okay. You know? ah I mean, i feel like, yeah. The other thing that I was thinking of with respect to vacation, like this is a vacation romance. They have these grandiose ideas and blah, blah, blah. Oh, I know you. I know you. Okay. Sure you do. And at home in l LA with her doing her job and him being an air marshal, their life looks very different. That's true. Is he going to be caretaking her when she's working 80 hours a week at her lawyer job?
00:40:11
Speaker
And is is it going to be the same dynamic? Are they going to be comfortable if he's on a multi-day flight multiple times a month? His job is not being at home. So maybe it's fine because, like I said, there's just a lot of open-ended stuff here, right? Right. Because if he turns himself around, okay, if he doesn't, you guys' his points stand, right? If they go home and they are comfortable with the amount of time that they are there for each other, okay, fine. But they could go home and be like, hold on, this is not this is not actually what i wanted when I signed up for this. You know what I mean? There's just so much open-ended stuff. But that was not the question. I was going to ask, when you said earlier, Holly,
00:40:55
Speaker
here that are you asked what does grace give nick at that moment i was like oh that's why she has to be the one who goes after him because she has not been the giver for the book but i also see your point where he is the one who's engaged in the bad be behavior regularly and it doesn't necessarily matter i mean i kind of there was a moment during their makeup not really makeup breakup makeup breakup that nick apologized and she said okay forgive you but we're breaking up and he's like so you don't forgive me and she's like no that's not right i do was like well i see his point there and she's allowed to do whatever she wants i was like ah you know whatever but given that he
00:41:43
Speaker
he's the giver and she's the receiver not the giver right and then she is the one who does the grovel like normally that's how it goes right you're right with the heroine being the giver right yes hero has to do the grovel but I guess what does his behavior take away from that yeah that made you think yeah no I mean I think it's I think it's because i thought her reasons for breaking up with him were kind of valid and I have to agree. Right? And so that that's what it was, basically, is I'm like, ooh, if he's just gonna accuse you of awful things off the cuff without thinking, right? Because he's upset. and it's only been a week. It's been a week and three of those days you were like lying in bed being barfy.
00:42:30
Speaker
So it's been four days. He's done it twice in four days. that I think that's what it is. I think it's plus it's the behavior and the compression, right? It makes it feel unstable. Yeah. I want to ask, would you guys think it would have made a difference if she didn't chase after him? So let's say everything up, they break up, right? Mm-hmm. And then she does not go after him and apologize. Let's say they end up at the airport together. They run into each other by happenstance. And he says, you know what? I've been doing a lot of thinking and all this stuff that happened at the wedding has made me realize that I do i need to do some work on myself. But I would really like to take you out the next time i I'm in LA. Like, would you consider going out with me? You know, just –
00:43:15
Speaker
seeing where it goes more casually, like take a step back while I sort through my issues. Would that be a more happily ever after to you? Or would you buy it if he did some self-reflection? So the key is she doesn't chase after him.
00:43:28
Speaker
He's accountable. And they... The happily ever after is them taking steps to move forward and see where it goes real life. Make it more clear that it's an HFN, that right we're going to start dating rather than we're in game. I think even if it were she hadn't chased after him, but they run into each other in the airport and they did kind of like a mutual apology where she was like, okay, because I think Aaron was right that like she has to give something.
00:43:55
Speaker
Right. Maybe even she initiates the conversation. Yeah. And then he says, you know, but you were right and we need to take it a little slower and I want to take you out next time and I'm in LA.
00:44:06
Speaker
Right. Like even that where like she initiates the apology, but his response is more measured in HFN-y. Shows some more maturity. Yeah. Now i have i have a follow up question since we're having some fun hypotheticals.
00:44:21
Speaker
So you said there it was the compression and it was the emotional maturity, right, Holly? Sure. Yeah. Ish? Can we you paraphrase that? So let's say that we kept the compression, but he didn't go for the jugular twice during arguments. Would you buy their ending then if what everything else was the same?
00:44:41
Speaker
What if he didn't go for the jugular or but maybe did but immediately recognized? Would that still work? Even if he had accused her of breaking up the wedding, even though she told he wasn't. And like if that scene had happened, but not the scene with the ex-husband, yeah then I would have been okay with it.
00:45:01
Speaker
that could Because two is a pattern. Yeah, like this is like a high stakes, high emotions situation where it's also about his relationship with his sister. And that one I felt was more understandable from his point and much less egregious what he actually said to her.
00:45:20
Speaker
Yeah, then in the conversation with her ex. Yes. And the conversation with the ex establishes that as a pattern that is a big problem as opposed to like a one-off high stakes moment. Well, and let's be clear. So the the moment with the ex is like Grace and Nick are, i don't know walking back to their hotel room or they're traveling through space together. And ex approaches...
00:45:45
Speaker
And is like, Grace, can I talk to you privately? And Grace is like, okay, fine. And Nick really kind of goes off the handle. And at first Nick is like, ah no, she has nothing to say to you. And Grace is like, no, no, Nick. And I think we're in her brain here. And she's like, oh it's like getting pissed on by like, oh, stuck between these two men. gross And she's like, no, no, I got this.
00:46:09
Speaker
And then he's like, oh, so you can just like go sleep with him. And she's like, what? And he's like, well, you know, I apologized to you earlier and you like were sucking my face immediately, basically. Right? Yes. That was like a super yuck moment. Not just because of the jealousy or like the things that he says are gross, but also like he goes... to a thousand just because she agrees to talk to her ex in a public area in a public location you know like he doesn't want to talk to him at all you're right if he had even just been like no and grumbly about it but he went off the handle like i could totally understand just being like yes fine we can have one private conversation like
00:46:56
Speaker
Yeah. Like, whoa. I don't know if you concluded your thought there, Holly, but I have a question about maybe this is a good question for Ingrid is does this all illustrate an inconsistency in the narrative itself? Like, are we dealing with a problematic relationship? Not because it's necessarily problematic, but because it's not smooth or like thoughtfully smooth. considered and constructed mean what's in some ways like what's the difference well well this is going back to ingrid's earlier comment in another one of our podcasts where our tumble reads or whatever we were talking about where she said it all comes down to craft
00:47:37
Speaker
yeah Right. And this is where I actually, I'm glad you brought that up, Erin, because I was actually going to bring up one thing that I thought was poorly constructed and I think made a big difference on Nick's character. And that is that the way Nick is written, his vulnerabilities are actually quite exposed. I think that's in an effort to make sure that he's not too two-dimensional. So we know that he's got this past history of trauma. We know that he he went into the Marines instead of going to college and that he feels some degree of sensitivity about that.
00:48:06
Speaker
And we can see, i didn't count how many times, but i it's definitely more than three or four times at least, where he has moments of intrusive, what would you call it? Lack of confidence in himself. Yeah. Like where it shakes him a little bit. his He has this intrusive thought about how he's not good enough. And then he's like, no, no, just ignore it. Mm-hmm.
00:48:28
Speaker
That's a conscious choice to put those moments in. And when you couple those moments with the way that he lashes out and fights, it explains why he lashes out that way, but it also makes him look unstable as a character. Mm-hmm.
00:48:49
Speaker
person on the one hand but then on the other hand we're having these moments that are not being expressed where internally he is being shaken by his own self-doubt and insecurities, it makes him look untrustworthy because he is in fact, not stable. Because if he had the thoughts, but then he dealt with the thoughts and he did not act on those thoughts, he would be more stable.
00:49:13
Speaker
you would be You would trust him more. But the choice is made to make him lash out at her in ways where it shows that this insecurity is just leaking through. It ends up feeling more like a balloon that's about to pop. instead of feeling like this is somebody who's really grappling with some real issues and is handling them as maturely and as responsibly as they can so they're partnered is not damaged by it. So from a craft standpoint, because you know I love that craft and I could lecture you guys for hours on it because I think the subtle mistake that was made with his characterization is she should have picked one or the other.
00:49:45
Speaker
Have him have these intrusive thoughts or have him speak thoughtlessly, right? But you cannot set him up as being the person for her, who is reliable, who is there for her, her rock, and then at the same time make him seem like he is a balloon that is about to burst.
00:50:01
Speaker
Yeah. With his own insecurities that he is actively pushing down and not dealing with. And then at the end, they're glossed over completely. This wasn't even an issue. His issues were not the issue. Yeah. You I'm saying? Because I feel like that, it sounds to me like if that had been written it a little differently, it might not have been so bad. But what do you think? now No, i think i think you I think you nailed it. Yeah, I think it it was that scene with the ex and I was just like, oh...
00:50:27
Speaker
It was bad. And it kind of came out of left field because you're sitting there and you're like, oh it well, he's got these insecurities, but it's fine. And then to shame her for something that he actively participated in and encouraged and to do it publicly, like that's pretty bad. That's pretty bad. So I feel like we've beaten this horse and this might be a good shift into the whole worldview of this book.
00:50:52
Speaker
Let's do it. Because I felt like the text as a whole was very slut-shamey. Yes. a but Let me read the text. I was going to read a passage. Well, there's one that I highlighted when So we talked about the beginning where Nick is kind of being gross to Grace at the outset. But there was a moment where Grace is thinking about the woman that her husband left her for, cheated on her with. yes They ended up getting divorced, but i think it's not clear if he just confessed that he was having an affair and or if he was like, no, I'm going to leave you for this woman. So... They're talking to each other. and Brad says, the ex-husband, I made a mistake with Destiny. He's British, but I won't do a British accent, guys.
00:51:43
Speaker
Thank you. I made a mistake with Destiny. I think you owe it to me, to us, to give our marriage another try, Brad said, somehow managing to make the ridiculous words sound perfectly reasonable. But then it hit her. Her name was Destiny? You cheated on me with a woman named Destiny?
00:51:58
Speaker
He blinked owlishly at her, obviously unsure how to respond in a way that wouldn't incite her to violence. But it suddenly occurred to Grace that she wasn't all that pissed off anymore. Sure, it stung a bit that he'd thrown her away, thrown their marriage away, for a woman who probably wore acrylic heels and wrapped her legs around a pole while shaking her ass to deaf leopards pour some sugar on me on the weekends.
00:52:19
Speaker
Yeah. Ouch. So gross. Also, also, Destiny is 19. And Brad is 35. thirty five And up until then, I think she called her like Cheeto something.
00:52:35
Speaker
Cheeto. Chesty Cheeto. Chesty Cheeto. Chesty Cheeto. Something like that, yeah. Right? So she's calling her Chesty Cheeto, Chesty Cheeto. And then you, then then there's this line. And then you find out that Destiny is 19. And I'm just like, you are gross, Grace. You're gross. And then there's this whole side plot with Nick's aunt, who it like is only in two scenes it to and like lays some ah you know wisdom on Grace. But then also is just, she's like a cougar, right? And she's hitting on all the young men in their party. And Grace is really grossed out by this. And I'm just like, what's your problem, woman?
00:53:14
Speaker
Sorry. Well, we've got some stuff with Grace, too, because there's a point where, what are they? Nick and Grace are having sex for the first time. And he is going about it worshipfully, right? He is undressing her and looking at her. worshipfully and she what she almost gets choked up about it right because because Nick is only the second man that she's ever been with so she's only ever had sex with her husband before and she's like it took us two years to get to that point but it feels right for me to just do this with Nick right now kind of thing you know and and then it ties into all of those I think very standard teens contemporary not even just contemporary teen uh teens not teenage but like 20 teens romance concepts about women who don't have perfect bodies and then there's some acknowledgement so in this case she's talking about how he thinks he's looking at her worshipfully he thinks she's like attractive even with her dimpled thighs and and But I thought she was really skinny. yeah Right, exactly. i was like, wait a minute, ah when I read that too. But that's very common, I think, for romance novels of this time.
00:54:36
Speaker
and Well, not just of this time, but especially of this time. And it also ties into this purity and beauty idea that Grace has going on. Chesty Cheeto is like, oh, she's like a blonde bimbo with a spray shirt.
00:54:51
Speaker
Who's also a stripper. That's all that's all yeah physical, right? Yeah. And like, even when she's talking about the aunt, the way the aunt is described, like all of these physical perceptions. Who might also be a blonde bimbo with a spray tan. Exactly. ah But older. Yeah. Raspi cigarette voice.
00:55:08
Speaker
I really wanted to hear, because I think this ties into something that I was curious about how you guys, what you guys
Cultural Sensitivities and Narrative Critique
00:55:14
Speaker
felt about it. I noticed that there's a lot of verbiage and impressions. Right. It's not the author's description, but it'll be various characters, secondary, tertiary in the book where there's hot takes that I felt that, again, really curious about when this was written, because I was like, man, definitely before the aggressively PC phase of Romancelandia, where nobody had any problems and everyone went to therapy. But there's like some language in there where I was like, oh my. Yeah. Were you guys put off by that? or were you Because here's the thing I noticed. It's not like it was condoned.
00:55:54
Speaker
It was like, that's not cool. So my question is, how did feel about that? Well... Like you're talking about grandma. The grandma. Yeah. Well, yeah, the grandma. But also like when she's talking about Destiny and the Chesty Cheeto thing. I also found that a little bit off-putting, insensitive, judgmental. And so I was kind of like, how did that impact the way that you guys read the book? Did it detract from it? Did you just, was it not as bad because it wasn't condoned? Like how did you feel about it? But like the Chesty Cheeto thing is like is condoned. That's our heroine, like our POV character, who we are supposed to be on her team, right? Destiny is a very valid and common name. That is not a name that should be disparaged, right? Like, that's a perfectly normal name. It's not even spelled like a tragedy. know, honestly, had a moment where I asked myself, and I was like, would it be different if she was like, you cheated on me with McKinley? Or no, McKinley Brie?
00:56:51
Speaker
Bryn McKenna? Like... One of those really, like, a really interesting name. But then I was like, okay, but hold on. I don't really like it when people make fun of anybody's name.
00:57:02
Speaker
And it's not her fault what her parents named her. Right. Right. so it So then I was like, for me, when I was thinking it, I was like, actually, no, I don't think you could swap out any other name. And I don't think you could put any name. And there's this whole thing where she's defensive of Nick when Brad calls him white trash. Right. Or trailer trash. Right. But she's doing the same thing. Exactly. Oh, thank you for noting the hypocrisy. I didn't pick up on that. So but what about the grandma, though? I, you know, I mentioned that how the family is portrayed. And I think that a lot of it is the grandma. And I think it's supposed to be funny. Yes.
00:57:36
Speaker
I think it's supposed to be funny. And, you know, like, at one point, the grandma tells the bride, you know, even pretty girls can be lesbians now. Oh my gosh. that It's okay. It's not just the ugly ones.
00:57:49
Speaker
It's not just the ugly ones. you get you can You can go find a nice girl. You don't have to marry into this family. And everybody is just like, uh. And so the text is like, okay, that's not a cool thing that grandma said. But i think it's meant to be funny. And there are all of these interactions with the family. Like there's one scene that I think is supposed to be like a yeah, power scene where Grace's mom tells grandma to fuck off. Right.
00:58:14
Speaker
And flips are the bird. And I think that's supposed to be like, yeah, finally someone's standing up to grandma. But no, it just felt real gross. Well, and I wonder why that is, though, like, because I remember. it So the scene is, is where the grandma's being, you know, grandma's being a judgmental thing. And the mom basically says, it's none of your business. Like, you need to back off. This is none of your business.
00:58:37
Speaker
Your opinion is not necessary. And then the husband backs up the wife instead of the mother. And it's supposed to, yeah, like you said, it reads that way. But why was it so gross? Because like what you can tell it was, you're right. I think it was supposed to be kind of like a, yeah, get him. Yeah. But, you know, it's like all of the scenes with the family, I think were meant to be funny. And were just, they were just a little too, it was like, it didn't straddle the line, right? Because it's supposed to be dysfunctional funny. And it wasn't so dysfunctional that it like looped the corner back into funny.
00:59:13
Speaker
Right. It was just enough dysfunctional where it's like totally believable and realistic. Yeah. And therefore not funny. Yeah. I think that's what it was for me.
00:59:24
Speaker
It's like, it needs to be more or less. Right. Yes. Yes. And if it's more, it needs to be called out as, as such. Like this is, this character is a bad guy, not funny.
00:59:34
Speaker
No, or it by more, I meant it needed to be like more ridiculous. Oh, I see. So it reminds me a lot of the proposal with Sandra Bullock with Betty White, where I think what you're saying, Holly, is that if it's going to be more ridiculous, it needs to be more like the Betty White character, where it's off the wall and a little bit inappropriate, but it's mostly harmless. It's not taking pot shots at groups of people. It's more like slightly off color, like innuendo type stuff. Yeah. Right. I mean, yeah, it could have gone in that direction. i mean, or maybe the text needed to call it out more, but or it needed to go like so far in the other direction. Like it needed to be pushed kind of in one way or the other. it it It was it wasn't clear enough which side of the coin it was on, basically. Yeah. And I think she was trying to make it a little bit of both and therefore failed at both. Or I think it was, i i stand by what I said before, it was like, just offensive enough to be realistic. Like, this is a realistic portrayal of a gross family being gross, that I can't just write it off as funny. Well, and I, now that you mentioned it, I'm thinking about the part where Nick finally does kind of lob it back when she keeps saying like, oh, he's going to search her purse. He's going to go through her purse. And he says, sometimes I do it before, or sometimes I do it when she's in the room, or I don't remember how was exactly she says it. And that would have been enough. He didn't have to say anymore. But then he takes it too far. And I was like, that's gross. Where he's like, first I fill him with sperm, and then I go through their purses. And I was like, Yeah.
01:01:08
Speaker
Yuck, you know, and he does it with like an Irish accent. But i think that one of the things I'm hearing is that we maybe agree that there are different little boundaries for this type of thing. And it felt like this just ignored a lot of those and kind of went over the boundaries or it didn't hit the right marks. If you're going to have inappropriate humor, you got kind of like, you got to lean into it. Like yeah if you're going to go inappropriate, I feel like you got just like lean in.
01:01:36
Speaker
yeah Lean in. What do you think, Erin? How did you handle that? Okay, so i I agree that it was probably supposed to be a line of humor in a romantic comedy, right? If the book is marketed and ah as a romantic comedy, then some humor is required. I don't know that you guys clarified kind of the full content of what the grandmother was saying, but it was stuck like, she is says racist stuff, but like the Irishman thing coming up. There's no, there are no people of color in this book. No, not at all. yeah. So she says she, although i I do think the like racist against Irish people bit. I did think that was kind of funny. Yeah.
01:02:21
Speaker
Like, like, all right, we're we're doing this. You're racist against Irish people. Love you. Love that for you, grandma. yeah That actually ties into race ideology in the United States stemming from the early 1800s. So actually Irish people were not considered, quote, white. Right. But when they were immigrants. Okay.
01:02:44
Speaker
But 2018. So there's that. She says a lot of bigoted stuff. So there's one line, for example, and this is the first dinner, which is also just like terrible because Grace's mom is being gross, too. But it goes, but Brad's smile drooped as Ruthie added, better to have a faggoty Englishman for a husband than a nothing but testosterone Irishman. Gross. And then like, yeah, yuck. And then actually i rescind my comment about good job. Grandma just being racist against Irish people, because can you even imagine what she would say if Nick and Sadie were black?
01:03:25
Speaker
like Right? Oh, Lord. i mean, I'm glad the book didn't go there. But, you know, Grandma Ruthie watches a lot of Fox News. yeah Yeah. And then I think it's interesting, Holly, but now that we're talking about the family and you're like, Gage, yuck. Because Gage is the one person who actually says something back. So as I was reading some of this and everybody else is just sitting around the table being like, I'm just going to ignore it and not feed it kind of an attitude to the bad behavior. Except for Gage, was like, I agree with Holly on the it feels too real stuff, too. Like, I think in current books, we want to see people challenging these ideas. We want to see characters challenging these ideas openly. And in this case, both of our protagonists largely keep their mouths shut, I guess, until we get to that point that Holly described where Nick finally snaps and really leans into his Irish heritage. Yeah.
01:04:25
Speaker
Gets real salty like Ingrid described, right? But here Gage goes, wow, Gage murmured, you managed to insult gays and everyone in two countries in one sentence. That's impressive, even for you. And that is the kind of pushback that that this grandma gets for most of the book. And then the thing I think that really turned a corner for me in the bad way. hmm.
01:04:46
Speaker
Is when Grandma Ruthie is talking to Nick later on. It's supposed to be the moment where she gives him the push he needs, right? and explains, she's like, you wimped out.
01:04:57
Speaker
And she is describing how she had an abusive husband. and now that she has escaped that past, she is not going to hold back about anything that she thinks. Yeah.
01:05:11
Speaker
And given that it's really focused on the grandmother's super egregious behavior, I'm not going to say that I like everything that the author is doing, but I don't think that this is describing the author's belief system or the text's belief system so much as it is adding this emphatic line, I guess, in the narrative. But it's one of those things where it's like,
01:05:35
Speaker
Yeah, I'm glad you got out of that situation and you managed to find your power, but you chose the worst way to do it It's like instead of finding your power in a positive way, you just decided to be as mean as you want and not care about the consequences, basically, to everyone. And nobody pushes back against you and you don't feel bad about anything that you say and do. And that's pretty gross. Yeah.
01:05:59
Speaker
You just took on the role of family abuser. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what she's done. And we leave that scene with Nick feeling like, yeah, I did wimp out and I really should. Like, he doesn't agree with Ruthie. He's like, she's still pretty awful, but he's like, I shouldn't be afraid to say what I feel. So, you know, it's like, it's so mixed feelings. Because it feels too normal. Like how many people sit around the table and there's the uncle or the grandma or the friend who says something and most of the table's like, I'm not going to engage. Like yuck, but I'm not going to do it. Exactly. It was, it was uncomfortable. Yeah.
01:06:39
Speaker
i guess Right. Okay. So I'm curious, though, because I feel like if this book were a little different, and the main character showed some emotional maturity, and there was like more explicit pushback against these things, then probably we'd be like, man, this book was boring, and too well behaved and polite.
01:07:01
Speaker
And probably we wouldn't be having much of a discussion about it. We would just say, well, Well, that's why I'm curious about the line in the sand because like we talked about how, okay, so a lot of this stuff felt like it didn't quite hit the mark, right? Right. But like I loved the mess.
01:07:17
Speaker
I thought the mess was great. I love that the kids were too young to be getting married. The the marriage clearly should not have happened. The the mess was delicious. it yeah more It's more the execution. And so that's why I'm questioning like, okay, well, would you guys have liked it if we did this? Would you have liked it if we did this? So like if let's say that they did call her out the whole time.
01:07:35
Speaker
Or let's say that they did call her out the whole time and then she was trying really hard to adjust her mindset. Would that make a difference? how Where would it make a difference? I think it was more that like if it had been less framed as a way as to be played for laughs.
01:07:50
Speaker
Right. Okay. Yeah. You know, even if they don't call her out and we're sitting in this discomfort and the text makes it clear that nobody likes it, but we're just like not dealing with grandma. Like that's a messy and real thing that people do. Right. Yeah. Well, and also, how often are you going to be like, they're not going to change her mind necessarily. Like there's not going to be a moment. I guess literarily there might be. There frequently is. But like, how often do you also sit down at that table with those people and you're like, I'm not going to argue because what is the point? Like, I've had this argument before. i don't have the i don't have the spoons for that today. have other things on my plate right now.
01:08:27
Speaker
Exactly. I think that with a solid dev edit or two, this book would have pulled together. I think it could have still been a comedy. i think it still could have been messy. I think it still could be interesting enough not to just be super well-behaved and boring. With the essential skeleton that we have here... For me, it just boils down to I had a ton of discomfort reading this book because I felt like I felt like the stuff that I believe was supposed to be humorous to me, I couldn't feel comfortable being amused by. because there were so many other red flags. I think that there was character inconsistency like you described Ingrid with Nick. I think the relationship wasn't fleshed out enough to give us satisfying growth for all parties. You know, like I think it fell down in a lot of places, but i I'm sure there is another story with the same premise that we would be excited about. And I'm sure there's another story with the same premise that would be even worse. Yeah.
01:09:44
Speaker
I don't know. What do you guys think? What do you think, Akron? I, like I said, I really liked The Mess. I liked The Mess. That was fine. I really thought that was good. I like it when authors lean into that and just go go whole hog. It creates great tension. And I thought that the chemistry was great. I'm not always super keen on like the...
01:10:01
Speaker
play-by-play intimate moments so as soon as holly called that out i was like actually i think that's might be one of my favorite ways of depicting intimate moments is where you get the feeling from it and you you understand that like important things are happening but i don't really need i don't need so much detail all the time you know yeah so there were there were things i really liked i do feel like the real sticking point was like you said erin it just it was almost like death by a thousand cuts you know what i mean like it was just these little it was little moment little moment little moment where it just didn't quite hit or it wasn't done intentionally or it wasn't done in a way where I saw real character growth. And the end result for me, the reason that I would dock it some stars is that I feel like, you know, we we want to see characters grow separately and together for us to root for them.
01:10:43
Speaker
And in the end, I couldn't root for them as a couple because I was like, oh, man, it's a good thing you're a lawyer. I because I think you might need one later. You know what I mean? i didn't buy that they were going to have a happily ever after because I just felt like there were too many unresolved problems in the relationship, in themselves, in the family, in everything, and that it was probably going to be a bit of a wreck. Now, to be fair, this is a series.
01:11:06
Speaker
It's possible the family develops over time. But as a standalone, as the couple, they just it too many little tiny things just made it completely unenjoyable. At a certain point, I was like, oh, no.
01:11:17
Speaker
But I wouldn't write off the author altogether just based on writing style. I think that, yeah, like you said, a good developmental edit. And I think this would have been a much better book. I was actually a little disappointed at where it started out because I was like, oh, and it I didn't change my mind throughout the entire book.
01:11:31
Speaker
Like, oh, this is just like a lot of the other contemporary romance that I basically quit reading.
Discussion of 'Criminals Need Love 2'
01:11:37
Speaker
And I don't think I mentioned it this conversation. But when I talked about our next read during our rears and vices, I said, oh, I had read a different book by this author that was released, i don't know, a couple years ago. And that was Criminals Need Love 2. And it was also a rom-com. But it was like it was more genuinely funny. I don't remember. it might have leaned into some of the same or similar body image stuff. But I don't remember it being heavily focused on that. And that was at a point when I was more sensitive to body image stuff than I was you know six or seven years ago when we started this journey.
01:12:16
Speaker
And yeah it was just, it was fun. it was you know, like the heroine is a jewel thief and she ends up getting the hero to abscond with her by kind of blackmailing him because he is a recently released felon kind of a thing. and And in the course of their like driving off with all the jewels, he explains like what his deal is. And she's like, you know what?
01:12:42
Speaker
I'll help you out. You're helping me out. I'll help you out. And so they go be like fake fiancés to confront his family because, of course, he's innocent. And... She is just like badass. Like she owns the room. The dynamic is fun. It still has some of this goofiness of, you know, where I was like, well, maybe I shouldn't like this, but I do a little bit, but not on this level. Like this was, I was bummed that it, I think maybe that indicates that she's grown as a writer too, but. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Like this is a much older book by her. Yeah. And maybe, maybe I can read something by her written in the mid twenty twenty s Yeah. Not not Gage's book. Well, but apparently Gage's book is set some years later. Well, I hope so, because he ends up with the 19 year old sister. Right. gross
01:13:31
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I thought she was for some reason. I know that they were they were 19, but I was like, damn, really? The kids are 19. And I assume Gage is about the same age. Yeah, he's like 26 or something. Which is like 27 or so. Yeah. Yeah.
01:13:44
Speaker
He's in his late medical school. That's a big maturity difference. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, can I describe with, ah was Sophie, Sadie, Sadie, can I describe with Sadie well when they started talking about how she just really wanted to be married into this family? oh wow Why? They're awful.
01:14:07
Speaker
i was like, she's like, I just know. So she's like more obsessed with having a family, which tracks with her abandonment issues, right? In childhood. But it made me think of this, am I the asshole? Yeah.
01:14:21
Speaker
huh post I'll see if I can find it and link it but basically it's a whole best of redditor update situation where this is the dad writing and the dad has two kids his son has this girlfriend the girl they got engaged and the girlfriend is just like so you're my dad too and he's like I am not your dad and she's like but I want a dad it's just like this saga and I was like uh-oh uh When I read Sadie's thing, I was like, I feel like you have some work to do, child, before you. Well, and just that, like, Nick didn't call that out. Like, he's like, but she's always wanted this. She deserves this.
01:15:01
Speaker
Nick, honey, no, sweetheart. Bad idea, man. Anyway, but that's just kind of the whole book in a nutshell, I'm afraid. This is the thing that I think is crazy and then I'll stop but it is funny as to me how the book unpacks all these very intricate psychological and like interpersonal dynamics like it's all there and then it it it is intelligent enough to unpack these very complex dynamics very realistically but it is not emotionally mature enough for any of the characters to actually deal with them.
01:15:32
Speaker
Do you know what i mean? Yes. Like it's both that really intricate and dynamic and not at the same exact time. And I don't know how that happened, but it was it was remarkable. It was remarkable. cool So I was I went into this thinking, well, I guess that was a decision that I made. and But at least we can unpack why books don't
Literary Analysis and Recommendations
01:15:52
Speaker
work well. you know I think this supports the argument that any book can be discussed for any reason. oh yeah You can do literary analysis on any book. Exactly. why Just be prepared. But just like I said, you can. You just might not like what you discover. Sometimes it's your decision. You can enjoy it on on surface level if you want to, or you can be like us and dig into anything with depth and passion and vigor.
01:16:20
Speaker
yeah I do think it's an interesting thing to unpack or to continue to unpack why some badly behaved books I really enjoy and why some I really don't. And then why some I'm like, how do I feel? Because I don't like a lot of stuff that's happening, but also I like a couple of things that are happening. ah That's a very complicated reader life we have, right? It is.
01:16:50
Speaker
It is. It's that reviewer life. Yeah. Or just reader life. True. True. It's more fun as a reviewer because we can talk about it, though. But yeah, I mean, you can do that. You don't have to publish your reviews. You can just... be a critical reader you know yourself a thoughtful reader anybody can well do we have any takeaway thoughts i guess since we didn't feel excited about this book if you guys do have any recommendations for i don't know for like messy rom-coms slash messy contemporary wedding hijinks yeah i don't know what do you think Oh, geez, you're putting me on the spot here. Yeah, I don't really have any off the top of my head. I feel like someone who does this mess pretty well, and it doesn't ever go inappropriate, but it can be like off color a little bit is Lucy Score.
01:17:33
Speaker
i think she does a pretty good job. And she has that same like, I always hate describing this as like popcorn or junk food reads. It's not like that. There's not a lot of emotional work. If you just want to relax and enjoy the ride. Her books are great because they're funny. You'll go you'll like get those chuckles and stuff, but it's not like you have to dig deep. it doesn't It's not going to evoke stuff that you're not ready to evoke in yourself. There's no an emotional upheaval in a lot of her books. Now, some of them some of Lucy's scores can be like that, but I think like Riley Thorne, that series, has a lot that similar vibe. She sees dead people, so that's a little bit slightly different. It's less contemporary, but she does have other contemporaries that are similar where they have those messy characters, That small town feel. So small town is a limited environment. This is a limited environment. Same thing. So yeah, I think Lucy's score is a good one. I'm trying to think of some other ones that I've enjoyed that have been like that.
01:18:22
Speaker
Yeah, I would say Sosa, who I haven't read her more recent stuff, but like her stuff that was published in the 2018 timeframe. I really enjoyed those. and felt they were funny and fun and like not super deep, but like pretty enjoyable. Her books are sexier. Yeah, yeah yeah those are good. I don't know that I have anything else off
Reader Responses and Upcoming Book Club
01:18:45
Speaker
the top of my head. I mean, the blog has plenty of options for you, I guess. But just for Isabel Jordan, like I said, I did enjoy The Criminals Need Love 2 well more than this one. So I would say start there. Not here. i would not let' say start here. Oh, okay. So maybe last question. Since we started this saying, I got this on a Stuff Your Kindle Day. Those are oftentimes authors will put series starters as freebies or their older books to try and get readers to come in What do you think of this choice? Was it a good choice?
01:19:21
Speaker
I suspect publishing wise that the Stuff Your Kindle Days are probably a really great way for a lot of authors to push backlist titles. So backlist titles are the ones that aren't getting a lot of promotion, publicity. Maybe they're kind of they've staled out on sales. I'm betting that that's probably one of the ways that authors use this. It's more indie authors who are trying to get a boost or authors who have a more dedicated readership that are trying to to get those backlist titles from fading into obscurity. So it doesn't surprise me that this would have been on there.
01:19:50
Speaker
Yeah, well, and I guess if Erin's question is specifically, was this a good choice for Isabel Jordan if her goal was to get people to buy book two introduce people to her work? I think that there is a large segment of contemporary romance readers who would find this fun and funny and like the caretaking and just be like, oh, my heart. I mean, I'm just thinking about before this, the most recent... contemporary romance I read was an arc it's called sparring partners by Erin Rose and I was like oh man this book is not for me I i like I didn't have it as big of problems with it as I did with this one but was it was very not for me and I went and read the Goodreads reviews and they were all like book boyfriend live rent free in my brain I'm like, ooh, really? So I bet those readers would probably like this book too, as a general rule.
01:20:46
Speaker
So i suspect that plenty of readers would be like, oh yeah, this was fun and are like really invested in Gage a character and- his insta-love with Sadie and not think it's gross and you know yeah yeah okay fair because sometimes I read those things and I'm like oh why this choice but you're very right yeah and it's also possible that you know this just isn't a match for me maybe I had a really I was in the right place for that one book and the rest is just not a good fit who knows I maybe I'll read the next book in that series that I did like and circle back Okay, well, if we're all done, are we all done?
01:21:24
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I'm just like, I'm scrolling through our, the comedies we reviewed, but I'll just link to our other rom-coms. I love that for us. So scope out our rom-coms or just enjoy us being super nerdy slash critical about books, whatever floats your boat. For the next couple weeks, we will be back to Tumble Reads, which is our,
01:21:49
Speaker
spontaneous conversation for 30 minutes version of the podcast and then for our next book club pick in may we will be reading it's ingrid's pick the everlasting by alex e harrow woo woo for something completely different completely different we just like to cover all the bases you know yeah but This is why we take turns. I will say, if you would like to read along with us, The Everlasting probably has a bazillion holds, so put a hold on it now. Absolutely. Or last week, or last month. I mean, Ingrid and I put it on hold like three months ago, and now when so we're like, all right!
01:22:33
Speaker
There it is. Let's go. Yeah, fingers crossed I can even get to it. Well, first, I guess one way or the other, I'll be ready. Podcast notes are always available at smutreport.com slash podcast. You can find us on the socials. All of our handles are at smutreport. And please follow us, email us, whatever. So find us, stay with us, hang out with us. And until next time. Keep it smutty, folks.
01:23:03
Speaker
Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. Smut Report!