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Tumblereads 27: Tools in the Genre Toolbox
6 Plays11 minutes ago
It's Ingrid's week to host, so it should not come as a big shock that we're talking about craft. However, Holly hijacked the conversation a wee bit, so we spent a lot of time talking about historical fashion.
Show notes at smutreport.com/podcast.
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Transcript
Introduction to Tumble Reads Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
na na na that's my report hello and welcome to tumble reads the podcast feature where we wander through romance book land and talk about whatever we want today it's ingrid's turn that's me and i'm here with my friends they are holly And I'm Erin. Yeah. And we're going to talk about what I want to talk about today, which surprise, surprise, no one is surprised. It's about craft today. We're shocked.
00:00:30
Speaker
Shocked. Shocked that we're going to have a craft conversation. Yeah. I'm not, I don't feel like the nerdiest of nerds, but when it comes to writing technique and writing tools, I could nerd about this for weeks.
00:00:42
Speaker
I don't, there is, i don't foresee a stopping point for me nerding out on how writers write. I just love it.
Role of Historical Fashion in Romance Novels
00:00:48
Speaker
So today, like, let's talk for two hours about the history of buttons and how authors use like the history of garment development to show character in historical romances. Oh my gosh, Holly, I actually thought about both of you guys, but mostly Holly because the book that I reviewed i've reviewed a book recently Mm
00:01:18
Speaker
yeah there's not a lot of heat in this thing but i will tell you what the author did like to add and it was a lot of very specific historical fashion and household detail And I had to look stuff up because I was like, what in the heck is that? And it was always a legitimate fashion choice that was dialed in exactly situationally appropriate.
00:01:42
Speaker
And I will tell you that there was one point where they were going to a ball and I was expecting her to have the hair just like half up or, you know, like they usually I don't feel like romance authors who are writing Regency will have it be like,
00:01:55
Speaker
how it really was because the hair at that time, hot. They're just like, yeah, you have prom hair. Go forth. Yeah. It's not descriptive because if they really described it, you'd be like, really? That's a choice. So in this one, I can't remember the term. I wish – I should look it up, but it was basically like corkscrew curls on the side of your face like a little sheep. And then – And then some kind of like top knot situation that was like super elaborate. And like, like it wasn't just a little bun, you know, like when you watch Sense and Sensibility and they have some curls framing the face and then it's a bun on the back, but it's just, it's soft. It doesn't lace out in your face. This thing was like peacocking.
00:02:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so the person who did her hair was like, it's it the curls frame your face so beautifully and the top is so stylish and I was like what in the what and I looked it up and I was like oh no yeah no I know if you look at like actual portraits from the time you're like whoa Cara Knightley's hair never looked like that in Pride and Prejudice no this author jumped in with both feet it was total commitment to the style and I was like listen I find this a little bit off-putting even though I know it's appropriate but I bet
00:03:04
Speaker
I know two people who would just eat it up. Be like, I'm so glad that she had she featured the courting that was popular for two years in the eighteen hundreds Well, no, but that's the thing. So like to bring it back to craft though, I'm like, I don't know if that is an effective use that's a specific craft choice, right? It is a specific craft choice. That is about, ah I want this book to be, to have as many historically accurate details as possible based on my research, go ah looking at old paintings and um like costume collections and whatever. Mm-hmm. But you're saying it's pulling you out of the story and like, ooh, this hair is so dated. And if there are yes fewer details about the dress and the outfit, um like, I don't know that it necessarily serves the story.
Writing Techniques Across Genres
00:03:56
Speaker
Whereas there's a book I read recently. oh it was um unveiled by Courtney Milan. I know I've talked about it on the podcast recently. before but there's this bit where um the hero is talking about how the heroine is such a spoiled debutante because she fainted at a ball during her first season um and she's like well do you know anything about ball gowns and he's like well no and she's like well um there it's a victorian so it's a little later but she's like there are so many skirts and pieces to it that you can't go to the bathroom while you're wearing them and she's like and therefore you're not allowed to eat or drink or you're not allowed to drink anything all day because then you'll have to go to the bathroom and so and so she and so it's this real historical detail i assume i mean i assume courtney milan
00:04:53
Speaker
does actual historical research um right right it's this real historical detail that is used in service of the plot the the care like the plot and the characters and how they in our see the world as opposed to just like i'm showing i'm giving a a photograph of history you know right right Well, and that's, yes. So that's exactly what i was kind of hoping to talk about today, which was there are tools that different authors, so if you're an author who writes for a specific genre, there are tools in your toolbox that wouldn't be present, for example, in a toolbox for someone who wrote another genre. So to make it really obvious, we'll think about like horror, right? Or, you know, murder mystery type stuff. You're going to have, you're going to use different tools than you would if you were writing, you know, a children's book. Yeah. That's obvious. Some of them are less obvious. Now, I have this author that I really loved. She wrote this, um You, Me, and the Sea by Elizabeth Haynes. So she wrote both. She actually wrote like scary books and she wrote this romantic book. And i the tension that I felt in the book before I knew that she actually had a background writing scary books, I felt the same kind of like...
00:06:08
Speaker
like ah you know, white knuckle tension that I would expect to see in a horror book because this is an author who has tools in her toolbox. And a lot of them, you know, she was swapping back and forth from a different genre and you can feel it.
00:06:22
Speaker
Right. Right. So the point is, is that I wanted to talk about what are some of the most effective tools that we see for romance writers um that we might not see in other genres,
The Impact of POV Choices in Romance
00:06:34
Speaker
right? Just different writing tools and writing choices.
00:06:36
Speaker
Okay, so that's much bigger than just talking about how authors... in different sub genres of romance use clothes. I guess if I want to talk about that, I have to do that. We can. You're going to have to do it on your own. No. So Ingrid, I'm just thinking about your question, your kind of bigger question. um and Nora Roberts.
00:06:56
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Who is super prolific romance author, but also um famously as JD Robb has, you know, a long running murder mystery. Is it a procedural? I don't know. I, I haven't actually read any of her stuff. Yeah. or any of her J.D. Robb stuff. Yeah, it's like mystery thriller genre. Yeah.
00:07:16
Speaker
But that there is a couple, I think if there's a couple, long-running couple in the book, in the series as well. Yeah. It's not specifically romance. Right. But so my aunt um doesn't read romance, really, but she reads mysteries. And so she doesn't really read the Nora Roberts stuff, but she reads the J.D. Robb stuff. And she's just like, oh, yeah, I can tell when I'm reading these books that this author...
00:07:41
Speaker
does also know about romance because in her books versus like all the other mysteries that she reads, um the relationship pieces are better developed, right? yeah They are more fully fleshed out, even if they don't take up more page space. She, you know, that she just knows the beats to hit to make sure that the characters, that the readers see the chemistry between the characters. So Yeah. Well, and I think there's a reason for that. So um in my opinion, which is the correct opinion, just so you know, um the reason that I feel like there isn't, it's not uncommon for there to be an overlap between romance and thriller suspense is because of the nature of the tension. So the tension, both physical, intimate tension and, oh my gosh, my like,
00:08:34
Speaker
something scar scary and terrifying has happened, it's vulnerable tension, right? So um it's easy. I feel like it it there's ah ah an easy kind of jump almost because the tools really overlap a lot. You're looking at you know pace. You're looking at um you know moments of physical intimacy, whether they're terrifying or welcomed. do you know what i mean? Mm-hmm.
00:08:59
Speaker
So there are all these different little tools that authors can use. And I feel like for suspense and for romance, a lot of those tools are the same. Well, and I think it does depend on also on like what kind of suspense you're building. Cause like, I think for some, yes, I agree, but I've also read some like mystery suspense books um that are completely uninterested in the interiority of the characters and, you know, and where they're drawing from more of a like action gore toolbox like action and gore toolboxes you know yeah but do we find that effective is it as effective as when there is at least some degree of interiority in the characters do you know what i mean yeah i mean or i guess because they're tools yeah like you know uh all the like um the the sad scandinavian like police procedurals it like those
00:09:58
Speaker
like there is some interiority but they like they feel very different yeah like i personally don't like them i'm like oh this is so well so sad and depressing but i don't know well there's also different genres and this is i think your point ingrid operate in different ways right where Fantasy, for example, especially high fantasy, will rely more on archetypal characterizations that that together form a setting and world and plot um when you mix and match them, right? So you might not care so much about this particular fey, but the fact that there is a fey is doing some understood work that exists in fantasy. Yeah. That it doesn't necessarily, doesn' it like romance doesn't necessari necessarily treat that kind of fantasy the same way because it is so concerned with the interiority of the characters and less concerned about. ah
00:11:03
Speaker
Like what they similar. Generic verisimilitude and archetypical presentations, I guess. So i yeah, I, yeah, I think that's something that romance authors have to have in their toolbox that others don't. don't necessarily in a lot of genres even if we're talking about murder mysteries we're just like okay interiority of the character or not whatever but the point of the mystery whether it's a cozy mystery and i've read a bunch of those at this point because my book clubs love mysteries um or if it's like a police procedural the beats of the plot are heavily focused on the mystery whereas in a romance they're focused on the relationship more so right Right. It's about, and so it's about like finding the clues, like, right.
00:11:50
Speaker
Or whatever. Sorry, i interrupted you. Go ahead. Well, i well, I was like, I'm going to bring this together. Am I? We'll see. But, but I, oh, well, maybe then we can dive into... some of the so like in a mystery or in a fantasy frequently uta okay mystery frequently I'm thinking of it'll be envi okay I'll go i'll just take it back it's both two genres that I've read a little bit in that I'm not the like oh my gosh I really only read romance so forgive me but it's like you might either have single POV or multiple POVs but dual POV is unique to romance
00:12:28
Speaker
Right. Yes. And so when you're dealing with multiple POV, it's like you might have it's like the protagonist or a kind of omniscient narrator situation. and a villain POV or you might have a situation where it's like the inspector and the villain and then you might have some scenes where the POV is the people who were involved like who get questioned by the police officer or whatever you know questioned by the inspector um or you just have the inspector's POV right same with fantasy you'll end up I'm thinking of for example And this is okay, romantic-y, but like something like S.J. Maas, where it's single POV and the heroine's perspective, and you're uncovering this mystery, or something like um one of the big series that I've read was, starts with Withered's First Rule by Terry Goodkind. So that's very, very standard high fantasy series that takes a bazillion years to finish. And there are different, it's like a TV show, right? There are different things happening in different parts of the world and you're going on a quest. And it's like the main character's protagonist POV, but then you might go over to where like some other characters are up to something, you know, and like. Right. Or like i mean or Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones is written like this or um like the Wheel of Time books. also and that's right yeah that's not really something that happens in romance at all right where you have like a big story that has a ton of different threads um that together are telling a big story but each individual thread has its own narrative from its own perspective and they are crossing in different places to make the big picture but we don't and yes i'm just basically agreeing expanding on that agreeing with aaron that like that's great i'd articulate it better well thank you So anyway, I think one thing then and that romance authors end up having to deal with is understanding the balance of a dual POV or understanding why a single POV is the right choice.
00:14:33
Speaker
okay in a romance because then you end up, if it's a single POV, you end up with a lot of opacity of the love interest. And when we're talking about a romance, we're talking about their relationship building. And so we go back to Ingrid's, you know, growing separately and together. And sometimes it's really hard in a single POV romance to see where where the growth is on the non-POV character. similarly I think well that's why can I jump in on this thing thing is like this whole trend I'm gonna call it a trend where there's this idea that romance readers only want single POV books and I think I'm sure there are some romance readers who um
00:15:10
Speaker
like them and that authors are kind of embracing them just because that's what the market demands
Balancing Historical Accuracy and Engagement
00:15:16
Speaker
like eloisa james's newest book that either just came out or is forthcoming it's in her last lady beers that one yeah it's it's a single pov book and all of her books up to this point have been dual or even early in her career she wrote multi-pov books and Silver Runs used to do that and I miss those days. um Right? But I feel like it it makes the genre, it, ah weekends weekends is not the right, ah weekends is not the right word. It's like, it shifts. It feels like an over, it's an oversimplification, I think, yeah Of what people really want. People think, well, this is going sound really snooty of me and I apologize in advance because I don't know how else to phrase it with the time we have. um
00:16:01
Speaker
I think people think they want single POV, but what they actually want is more of the... will they won't they um push pull the wondering they want the longing they want the yearning they want the they want the it that they want it to be unclear they don't want it they don't want it to be spoon fed to them right and i think that yeah it's people who've read dual pov books where like the dual pov um cishet books where the male main character is just kind of a horny douchebag and they're just like ooh i don't want to be in this pov like Right. So I mean, it's...
00:16:45
Speaker
specifically what it is that that you're wanting but because you know like we've said before these are all tools and they can be used well or they can be used poorly um And i do think that there are some books where it makes a lot of sense to have it be single POV.
00:17:04
Speaker
Of course, my pinnacle example of single POV done well is Culty by Marianne Jopata. was thinking that. Right? Where you've got a character who is already – it would be a disservice to the character for Culty to have a POV presented because – He isn't a big communicator. He isn't a big emoter, right? He's more comfortable not sharing these parts of himself with other people, right? So for it to be presented that way to the reader, it it works on multiple levels. Whereas there are other books where I i think that it it' it would be a detriment to have them be shifted to single POV, you know? Mm-hmm.
00:17:43
Speaker
Especially books, for example, romance books where there's ah intricate plot lines going on, crisscrossing constantly, where there's, so for example, a lot of romanticism. If you eliminated the multiple POV in those books, it would not make any sense because there's different things going on in different places and it just doesn't work. You know what i mean?
00:18:02
Speaker
I mean, and that's what we were talking about earlier with like high fantasy. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just a matter of like which tool for which trade, but that's one of the things I think, I think really good romance writers, they know they can tell This is not the right book for this voice or for this perspective, this POV.
00:18:23
Speaker
And that's something that I think romance authors, really good romance authors, they just know it. And maybe maybe they just maybe it's not something that they know that they're that they can explain or articulate. I think that they do, though. But um they can tell that like this this would be poorly served by switching the POV.
00:18:39
Speaker
um Just like it would be poorly served when they're talking about tension and stuff if they didn't have that, those constant little, if the pacing wasn't that constant push-pull, push-pull constriction, you know and then expansion of like of pace and detail. And when they put dialogue in, that stuff helps with all the tension. In other books, you know they there they meander more. I'm thinking about books like... um Okay, i ah the only one I can think of right now is like, I'm thinking of books like Toni Morrison or um who's another really, John Irving, for example, those have tension and it builds, but it doesn't build in the same way. And the voice is, the voice overpowers just about everything else. Do you know what i mean? So for that one, the voice is more of a tool, a more tool that's used more more heavily than, for example, you know, the pacing and the POV. Yeah.
00:19:28
Speaker
You know, brings, okay, I'm having, we're going to run out of time. This is ah maybe too big of a topic because I was thinking already of, we've got ah the dual POV issue. And then, you know, if you go back in time, it was always single POV. We can look at the history of it. But I think then when we start looking at the history of romance, we're also going to have to look at generic verisimilitude. And when you guys were talking about clothes, early on and too much versus not enough uh i actually i think it was an author newsletter way back in the day where the author had said they had gotten a response from somebody something was factually inaccurate and the they weren't like oh i feel bad that it was factually inaccurate they're like i failed as an author because You notice that pulled you out of the story. Yeah. yeah And so I think there's that balance of the historical accuracy combined with the generic verisimilitude so that readers don't get pulled out of the story because so much of especially historical romance ends up having this. Yeah.
00:20:29
Speaker
Like if you go too far into historical reality, you lose the generic verisimilitude and readers are like, that's not right, which is not right, but it feels not right. And that also takes you out of this story.
Storytelling Techniques in Romance vs. Other Genres
00:20:43
Speaker
So it's like, you got to walk that line. Right. But then I was thinking, sorry, we can go either direction. The other thing I was thinking of when Ingrid was just talking was um one thing that romance authors typically tend to do that I notice doesn't happen when I have to read these book club books that I'm like, what even is this book? Yeah.
00:21:04
Speaker
is they'll get right to the point they're like here are the protagonists and here is the problem and this is going to be the arc of the story and you know it going in and then I will read my like lit fic books and be like what the am I what what am I reading this for like am I just going on a walk with this narrator I don't understand like why do I do that i know genre yeah I don't like oh that's not fun. So what it like, that's another. no right. that That's a big thing. And I think, you know, going back to Ingrid's earlier thesis about, um I'm going to call it a thesis about like the overlaps between like romance and mystery thrill thrillers is like mystery thrillers do the same thing.
00:21:45
Speaker
Right. yeah um You know, in a mis murder mystery, you get the problem. There's a body. Like, here's the body. And here's who's gonna work on solving it. And like, of course, you're going to introduce suspects throughout. Right.
Historical Fashion's Influence on Character Development
00:22:00
Speaker
But like, even in, like, psychological thrillers, where there isn't a body per se, like, you know, what the problem is that the characters are trying to solve from very early on. Yeah. Well, and I actually wanted to hop just – I was thinking – like, for example, here's one thing. Aaron brought up the historical costuming and stuff like that, the historical details that could pull you out of it. One, Holly, I thought about you and your love for those books when it was the really – the ruffled shirt gentleman. Oh, my God. I love men in ruffled shirts. And, yeah, and I was thinking about – I feel like there was one book we read together where he, like, always wore high heels –
00:22:41
Speaker
and I was yeah with the jewel all that stuff and I will say this because I was like well you know I feel like that didn't bring me too far to the story because you know like you can be a dude and rock high heels like who cares it's whatever just picture David Bowie and we're all set and and they did have the little patches and stuff remember the patches you know what they didn't but you know I i have not read a romance novel where they included the the damaging scary toxic face makeup right Because I was like, that's the line. If the author, if you're like, if it's costume, you can make whatever sexy, that's fine. But, but what's not sexy is like putting lead on your face, killing yourself with lead. Right. So it's one of those things where they're, you know, that's one of those things. Romance authors tend to know where that line is like, this is not going to be sexy. Right. Although, okay. Although. So, um, how to fake it in society by KJ Charles, um, like it just came out. And, um, one of the heroes is, uh, a dye maker.
00:23:42
Speaker
So he's like, you know, so he makes colors. D-Y-E or, okay. D-Y-E. Or like gambling dice. He makes pigments and dyes and paints. Okay. So he um uses all kinds of fun materials in his work, as one does. And there's a scene where his love interest, who is um a very fashionable French gentleman, and he's like, oh, you know, that that green looks really good on you. By the way, it's made of arsenic. Yeah.
00:24:15
Speaker
and the different guy's like what this is my favorite coat um and is like taking it off and get rid of it so there's your counterpoint is i found one book where they talk about um toxic materials used to make yourself beautiful um there you go but the characters are like freaking out about it so that's it's his coat but this is yeah whatever I was right. People get all bent out of shape about lead work with stained glass. And I'm like, you're not eating it. Like, don't touch the lead and lick your fingers. It's fine. But the but that's probably still, but it's not on your face. Right. I was thinking of the Eloise. This is not quite the same. It's not the chemicals, but the super elaborate.
00:25:01
Speaker
hair wigs and hairdos so if you've watched bridgerton the queen's hair is always like maximum extra and this is something that in the georgian period all fashionable women would have these ridiculous coiffures yeah i mean not as big as as hers but the uh i think the only author that i've read who talked about how un and it wasn't even in all the books in the series it was no it's just the one one book very memorably was eloisa james and which one was it it was in the ah it's an affair before christmas yes that's the one and fair before christmas my el james um like and it messed up my hair and it's so itchy and uncomfortable and like they always just ignore that
00:25:46
Speaker
Yeah, but in that book, it will, but it's used for character and and yeah connection because part it, so it's like a marriage and trouble book. And part of it is that like, their their sex life is like kind of in the toilet, right?
00:26:01
Speaker
And Part of it is because she thinks that her husband can't see her undone. And so when he comes to her at night, she still has her hair pieces in and her and like the powder makes her head really itchy. And so she's just like, wow. really uncomfortable not because she's having like having to show her body or anything but because like she's itching yeah she's physically uncomfortable she's physically uncomfortable and like there's a scene where um he like washes her hair and like gives her a haircut because she has like
00:26:40
Speaker
bits of like feathers and like hair extension that have been like glued onto her scalp that are like still in there that her maid just kind of cuts the cuts part of it off but like leaves bits of it on um like gross it was gross yeah very very memorable obviously obviously like 20 years ago and um that is the same series by the way with um the duke who wears the jewel high heels Yep.
Recommendations and Final Thoughts
00:27:10
Speaker
These are important. I really do think if you haven't read those, you should probably read them because it's just a. It's part of like having a well-rounded romance education. And so the series in question is the Desperate Duchess's series by Eloisa James. um And that is one that I strongly encourage you to read all of the books in order. They are multi POV stories and each one has like one romance, but like the couple in book five, their romance builds for like the first five books. Yeah.
00:27:44
Speaker
So pro tip. So anyway, so I guess to sum up, we've discussed how romance authors have toolboxes that are full of tension building and careful choices in POV and historical detail. There is a razor thin line. Yeah, there is a razor thin line on making sure that choices are accurate, but not super unsexy. Because let's be real, there are choices throughout history where we're like, oh, um So yeah, that's, um there it's those are some big ones. And there's a ton more. Erin was right. I feel like we could talk about this for a lot longer. I probably should narrowed down more, but I didn't feel like it. So I didn't.
00:28:23
Speaker
Well, you know, sometimes it's good to throw out something and then you're like, oh all right, here's where we want to dig deeper. Yep. That's where we're tumbling with our tumble reads. Yeah, but I think the key takeaway here is that romance authors um do a lot with some very specific things and they elicit, um you know, like really strong reactions in us and it takes skill. So... Well, I think that's all interesting. Yeah, good job.
00:28:48
Speaker
Just sit an observation, maybe as we're closing, is that the books that we cited are like Eloisa James's books were trad pubbed. KJ Charles was maybe still is a Mills and Boone editor. um So probably you're also looking for well edited books. Yeah.
00:29:07
Speaker
You know, authors who have this skill, but also people who are paying attention to their craft enough to get the right editorial input and really make a banger. That's right.
00:29:19
Speaker
Yep. Join a writer's club, friends. Anyway, so that's what we have. There are show notes under the link and we're on social media sometimes and...
00:29:32
Speaker
i don't remember all this stuff i'm supposed to say that's a getting better at it that's they suggest find the things you can do at yourre grown-ups anyway goodbye have a nice week and as always keep it smutty folks na