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TSR Book Club: Rears & Vices by E.M. Caro
26 Plays47 minutes ago
Are you ready for some poly pirate action? Are you also ready for lots of detail (in a good way) about 19th century naval warfare? Join the Smut Report team as we discuss Rears & Vices by E.M. Caro.
Full show notes at smutreport.com/podcast
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
But speaking of that battle too and the history, sorry guys. Oh no. We almost made it. We almost made it.
Introduction to "Rears and Vices" Book Club
00:00:10
Speaker
Hi everybody and welcome to the Smut Report podcast. Today is book club day. So it's time for Smut Report book club and March was my pick and I am Holly.
00:00:25
Speaker
I'm Ingrid. And I'm Erin. And anyway, as I said, March was my pick and so we are reading a new release which none of us had read before, unlike our previous two book club picks. So we all went in blind on this one. Yeah. And so we read Rears and Vices by Caro, which is poly pirate situation.
00:00:50
Speaker
Yes. So. Situation. It's very messy. It's very messy. Yeah. So anyway, I think this is going to be a fun conversation. There's like, there's a lot of stuff going on in this book. So we're going to start by just doing our basic rundown of the heat factor and the characters and the plot, etc. So Ingrid, why don't you talk about the sexy times?
00:01:16
Speaker
Well, I'm glad you asked, Holly. This is what I would consider a spicy book. I would not consider it. ah I will say this. I will say this.
00:01:27
Speaker
It'll it'll knock your socks off. All six of them. good Because there's three guys. Yeah. But not literally because V, despite living in the Caribbean, always wears wool socks and does not take them off for sex. Right? That's why I was good. I was getting there. Yeah. So anyway, anyway, it's, I would call it, I would call it, I would call it pretty spicy. It's not, it's not a baritre small, but it's pretty spicy. Yeah, I would say it's pretty descriptive. I thought it was interesting that Caro was very descriptive of, I guess, the mechanics, but also focused a lot the surrounding feelings or interactions.
Character Chemistry and Perspectives
00:02:12
Speaker
So like, like on the printing press, you know, and like, The focus of it was less the actual mechanics and more like how sliding on the printing press made it. Like impacting. Yes. So that definitely, I think, made it feel more spicy than the descriptions made it. Yeah, it's not. Like you just read it straight. It's not a physically visceral book. They stay in their heads a lot.
00:02:41
Speaker
You know what i mean? Yeah. because it's from Everard's perspective and Everard is in his head, I think, 24 hours a day. Yeah. Okay. Let's, what we can make, we'll come back to this. Yes. That brings me to the character chemistry. Yes. um And I want to say the chemistry is, so as Ingrid said, this is from Everard's perspective and Everard is not the most perceptive crayon in the box.
00:03:10
Speaker
So, The chemistry i thought was a little bit opaque because Everard does not understand what the chemistry is. Everard, i don't, have you ever seen those funny stories on social media from people who realized that someone was hitting on them like 20 years later?
00:03:29
Speaker
Where it's like, oh, she asked if she could come upstairs after our date and have a cup of tea and said that she was really hot and was rubbing all up on me. And I was like, oh, maybe you should go home and change into your, you know, cooler pajamas or something and then leaves. Like that's Everard. yeah He doesn't get any hints.
00:03:51
Speaker
No. No. Yes, you're right. Not even the hints of where you go, i go. yeah Oh, my God. that I was just like, oh my God, that was so romantic. I will say this. Merp.
00:04:03
Speaker
Merp. Why are you mad at me? Yeah. Since this is a poly relationship, I will also say
Plot Overview and Historical Context
00:04:09
Speaker
this. I think that this kind of has to be a poly relationship because it takes all three of them to pull off a successful relationship. Yeah.
00:04:17
Speaker
because Everard is absolutely clueless V is not communicative and what's his name Preston Darcy Preston is the only one with a sense of humor he's so extra I like. So it really takes all three to pull this off. Anyway. really does. Yeah. Bless their hearts.
00:04:42
Speaker
All right. Well, I want to ask questions, but I see Holly has a note about the relationship for our discussion later. So I will save it. So I will summarize the plot, which is to say Everard, captain of a sad little ship,
00:04:57
Speaker
in the Great Lakes Royal Navy, because please keep in mind Canada is still British at this point, is in a martial court with his ex-lover, which is super awkward for him. That's Darcy, who we talked to Preston Darcy, also a captain, used to be his subordinate. So that's lots of drama there.
00:05:20
Speaker
And in the course of this trial, they find that Everard's other ex-lover is to be hanged. everybody being a For piracy. Well, they have him on, I think... multiple charges, but especially desertion. And so he brought he's brought in for desertion. And sodomy. And then there's piracy and then they added on sodomy. So it's just like the Admiralty really wants this guy dead. And, you know, Everard is like, well, that can't happen.
00:05:53
Speaker
That's V. V is the pirate. Vitya and Everard and Darcy break Vitya out of this British ship and go on many pirating adventures in the Gulf, including Haitian rebellion and state building stuff, Mexican rebellion and state building stuff.
00:06:10
Speaker
So much, so much intrigue and pirate ship intrigue and political intrigue. Right. And that is, I mean, the plot is kind of pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah, the plot is kind of not obvious.
00:06:22
Speaker
And then it becomes like, oh, and the next thing and the next thing the next. Oh, this is happening now This is happening now. So it's not a very clear at the outset what's going on plot. Yeah, it's much like history. just ever are discovering what he's going on. Yeah. Yeah. One damn thing after the next. And the people who are in it don't know what's going on.
00:06:38
Speaker
Yeah. It's like, I ran away from my ship. Now what? And we're also like, ah he ran away from a ship. Now what? ah Yeah. Okay. So overall, what do you guys think of this book?
00:06:48
Speaker
I loved it. It was so good. And I don't, although I have gone through phases where I had a bewildered fascination with poly books, this one, just for, I could always tell that books are good when I'm just like, I fully accept the plot of this book with, and I, with zero hesitation. I'm just like, okay, I'm along for the ride. And that was me, this whole book. I was like, okay, we've escaped now. Now what? Okay. Crazy relationship triangle. Now what? I was i thought it was so gripping. I love this book.
00:07:17
Speaker
All right. I did. I'm i've really, oh, that makes me happy. But I'm wondering, now I have questions. yeah but i wasn't What did you think of the book, Erin? Your overall? You know what? I also really liked it.
00:07:28
Speaker
And I mean, it's not like a quick, easy popcorn read, but it was very clearly well researched, like well researched. Oh my go gosh. And I know that because I have a pretty good grasp of history. Okay, you guys have to save details for later.
00:07:43
Speaker
Well, that's what was my question for you, Ingrid. Like, does your knowledge of, like, what's going on in this period support your liking the book, do you think? Or... oh I think it's charming that you think I have any idea what's going on during that time period, Erin. This is the thing. You guys are the history nerds. So we all knew that it was either going to be, well, I liked it, but the history drove me crazy. Or it was going to be, oh my gosh, it was like a history book, right? For me, I don't know, nor do I care. I have, like...
00:08:12
Speaker
I have a general knowledge of basics. I have enough where I feel like I'm at least not ignorant, but I just don't care. i don't need details about how a ship comes about in a battle and what they accurately used to say when firing cannons to be able to enjoy the book. I don't i don't care. So...
00:08:30
Speaker
Even though I'm pretty sure this author used the accurate terminology. Well, that's thing. They used just the right amount. They used just the right amount where I wasn't like, oh my God, shut up. You know what I mean? Because I don't care about this. It was just the right amount where I was like, oh, they turned the starboard aft ship over to the thing. Like, I don't know. This is what it is to me. Just sheer gibberish. But I was like, absolutely. Throw the cannonballs. Like...
00:08:58
Speaker
I was good to go. i was like, light the fire rocket in the aft ship. Like don't, I was in it. I didn't care what the verbiage they used. To me, I was just invested and that's all I cared about. So it worked for me and i don't know, nor do I care.
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah. I I'm similar to you on the ships thing. Cause I was like, huh? Huh? Okay. So he's got a warship with 112 guns. that seems, that seems Yeah. And I was like asking my husband and he was like, oh, well, let me tell you about the stern and the bow. And i was like, the stern is the front. Right. And he's just like. my God, you guys. No.
Historical Fiction vs. Romance
00:09:38
Speaker
But we did establish.
00:09:40
Speaker
I established with my husband. And then this was later confirmed in the text that like the main ship that they're on the whole time would have like 200 people on it. Yeah, it's a really big ship. They're they're on a big ass ship. My husband's like, yeah, it's like hornblower stuff. like, you think I read the hornblower books? Come on.
00:09:58
Speaker
Come on. Yeah, I don't. And they do it. I think the author does a really good job of slipping in that because I knew it was a pretty big ship. I didn't have to like do outside research to be like, okay, it's that's a big ass ship. You know what mean? Because he's a big ass deal. And there was so much detail in the battles about what was happening that I was actually able to follow along without getting frustrated that I was going to have to do simultaneous co-research while reading a book about three gay pirates. So I, well, I can go into it later, but I felt like the book took itself remarkably seriously for there being that much emotional and socio-political drama going on. The layers in it were just chef's freaking kiss. It was... so good I loved it yeah just the right amounts of like historical detail just the right amount of interpersonal dynamics backstory it was so good yeah yeah I will say that sometimes I was like I feel dumb which you know me I hate feeling dumb when I read a book and like when I am like I understand that reference I'm like I feel really smart and I love that when I read a book But there's all this stuff about like the economics of how V runs his pirate fleet. Oh, yeah. And like the vanilla and the coffee. And I'm just like, I don't understand what I'm supposed to get from this information that you're telling me.
00:11:24
Speaker
Values. Right, but I didn't even understand like what exactly the information was. i mean, I guess like the values were he's like pro-liberty and anti-slavery. Like those are his central values. Yes. Yeah. But there are a couple of things in there is like, i know not as much about history as Aaron does, but quite a bit. Yeah.
00:11:44
Speaker
And did spend some time on Wikipedia being like, is this a real person? Let me look up the history of Galveston. Like, oh, yeah, this guy's real and this guy's real. But like, if I have to go to Wikipedia to like the sketchy French guy governor of Galveston had a falling out with some of his compatriots because he was...
00:12:07
Speaker
still like sneaking slaves into the United States and it is implied that he and V had a falling out but I had to go do research to figure out that like oh he's definitely still slaving and that's probably why he and V had a falling out then I think there are some holes in the text But also I did read chunks of this book in the middle of the night. So it could be that that was tired. And I just like fell asleep on that page. Yeah, so I think you do have to read this one with preparing to be fully engaged with the text. It's not a book that it would be easy to pick up and put down a lot or like do something while you're distracted with something else. so I agree with Ingrid that
00:12:45
Speaker
the information included was not dull info dumping levels of it was not 75 pages of whale blubber. Right.
00:12:57
Speaker
Moby Dick. But I could see it being too much for some readers, especially not history minded readers. And I think three of us tend to enjoy, even if we're not all experts, we tend to enjoy. you like stories, though.
00:13:10
Speaker
i like stories, but I care a lot less about accuracy than you guys do. Well, no, but it's not about accuracy. It's inclusion. of You like inclusion and like lots of rich detail. Yes. Right? I like it when... That's what I think Erin is trying say. Yeah. That's more what I'm focused on. I mean, we're all historical romance readers to start out with, right? That's true. We did start there.
00:13:29
Speaker
Yeah. And so... i I do think it's possible that it would be too much for some people, but it's stuff like there is a line early on where they're talking about the war with the French and they use the term bony, which is military name for Napoleon. Mm hmm.
00:13:47
Speaker
And there's just like a hash in the text that indicates that that's the slang that is being referred to. So there's not like an extra sentence. There's not a whole explanation. It's just the quotation mark stops, insert, side information, quotation starts again. So it doesn't get like super, super bogged down. Anyway, that all being said, that i did look up a lot of stuff, too.
00:14:09
Speaker
Like I was like, let me check this. Let me check this. But I'm not. I have a very focused part of history. I was thinking as I was reading this, my child is always like, you're a history major. How come you don't know this history? Like, dude, do you know how vast the scope of history is? Like, give me a break. And so this is not really my period. However, my other child is obsessed, obsessed, obsessed with ships. And so I was like, I know this. We're like way in the weeds now, farther than i we were going to be. But just to clarify what we're talking about with this ship, this gigantic ship is V, our character, who's the pirate. He has a whole fleet. He's like the pirate equivalent of an admiral.
00:14:52
Speaker
And his flagship so the primary ship of the fleet where the leader resides v's ship is this gigantic spanish warship he won it so it is referred to in the text as a santa anna class ship of the lion santa anna is a type of spanish warship It had 112 guns, et cetera, and so forth. So this is what we're referencing with this giant ship. You can look all that up if you are curious about what these ships look like. I think in one of our old conversations, Holly said, oh, the golden age of piracy. This isn't the golden age of piracy. This is the age of revolution. And I know that was just an oops because the golden age of piracy was actually between and the mid 1700s. And then we head into the age of revolutions where we're starting with like the US revolution, basically, and then on up into the Central American wars of independence. This is what these guys are dealing with in 1816 when the story starts. So you're talking like French revolutions, there's stuff going on in Poland, there's stuff going on in Ireland, there's stuff going on in Haiti, there's like all this stuff happening during this period.
00:15:53
Speaker
So lots of political upheaval, but also sailing ships for everything. So all of these ships are wooden, masted sailing ships still in 1816. And these characters in particular, i mean, Everard, our POV character, was impressed at the age of 12 and has been living on ships since he was 12 years old. And at this point in the story, he's like 35. He's like in his mid-30s, yeah.
00:16:20
Speaker
So these guys are all just like living on boats. Yeah. Sorry. So I didn't finish my thought about overall is I liked it. Like, I think this is one that you have to go into with curiosity and like sincere interest. If you're going to go into it as like, ooh, poly romance. And I think in this component, the historical accuracy, like polyamory as a term did not exist in this period. These guys aren't like walking around carefully negotiating their relationship. It's so messy. And as we mentioned already, Everard is like clueless and noncommunicative. There are several points that I was very amused where he's like, you just you just say that you can't just say that.
00:16:59
Speaker
Right. And so if you're going into it thinking, oh, poly romance, like, no this is not that. Right. And also, like, if you're thinking going into it, so I've never watched Black Sails, but like, you know, if you're thinking they're pirates, like we're in Pirates of the Caribbean, and like just running around drinking rum and lying on beaches and being chaos gremlins, that's not what's happening either. It's more nautical than piracy. Yes, he's a pirate captain, but I think one thing that the historical accuracy does really well is show how intertwined piracy and like political state governments
00:17:38
Speaker
Yeah. Actually were. I mean, and always were, right? Even in the golden age of piracy that was going on. Yes, absolutely. But it makes it very clear that whether you or not you're a pirate just kind of depends on what government you're talking to. It depends on who you're robbing.
00:17:54
Speaker
Exactly. It depends on your letters of Mark. Yeah. So many things. yeah It's like all these shifting alliances. All the time. Yeah. And so I, so I guess my overall to so like really summarize is I would go into this as curious about a historical romance emphasis on the historical fiction.
00:18:11
Speaker
yeah I got there eventually. This is not, i would, this is not ah sexy, caricaturized poly pirate book. it's It's interesting and thoughtful and has sexy moments. But I don't even think that when I think about the book, I don't even think that the sexy moments are are even remotely the drivers of the book. Like no they're there none it is romantic. But I was turning the page because I was like, oh my gosh, they're in a bit of a pickle. What's going to happen next? You know, like it was more...
00:18:39
Speaker
like that And then the sexual scenes kind of reduce some of the tension. Yeah, and it's how they connect with each other. during Correct. think Especially during points of tension. Yeah. So anyway, i think that I think it's important to mention, though, because I think that, ah you know, a lot of times poly books are kind of, I don't want to say, help me think of the right term here. Well, maybe you're thinking of either erotic based. Yes. yeah or More erotic leaning. Yes. Yeah.
00:19:06
Speaker
Right. Or they're just really, really focused. Like how-to manuals. ah Yes, on how-to manuals of like how- This how you do it right. Yeah. How we're negotiating this. And this book is neither of those. Neither of those. It very much felt like, this is to sound, it felt very normal.
00:19:21
Speaker
Do know what mean? Like, I don't know how you can describe a book where it's like captains have fled the Navy and they're shacking up with a sexy pirate in the thick of political intrigue as normal. But like, by golly, it sure kind of felt that way. Anyway. Yeah. So we should we should get in more. Wait, Holly didn't do her overall yet. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this is where we are. Yeah.
00:19:44
Speaker
I mean, i mostly liked it but i i think it suffered a little bit for me because like I said, I did read a lot of it in the middle of the night and this is not the kind of book that because you have insomnia. Yeah.
00:19:59
Speaker
ah Right. Like, I think both of you touched on reasons why this would be but this is a book that really does require full attention. And I was not very successful at giving it my full attention at all times. So it was a little bit harder for me. Okay. and Also, I was wondering, nobody really brought this up, I think, except for when I said historical romance, but focus on the historical fiction. i felt like its vibes were also kind of, like I said, more historical fiction than romance. So did that also flag for you in this reading, Holly, where you're like...
00:20:31
Speaker
Not really. I mean, because i I feel like I read non-vermint historical fiction. So like that's not as big of a deal. And i will say that the climactic arc of the story is very clearly centered on the relationship between the three men. That is true. I agree. So even though there's a lot of like just general historical fiction trappings going on around them,
00:20:57
Speaker
Well, and i I would like to point out that part of the reason that may feel that way is that it is from Everard's point of view. And Everard is not, there's a bit of a disconnect when it comes to his feelings and his processing.
00:21:09
Speaker
So even the scenes, especially in the beginning where he's kind the he and V are trying to figure out what their relationship is now that they've been like thrust back into each other's lives and they're depending on each other for survival basically they have these moments where it should be kind of like tense flirty banter right but it doesn't read that way because Everard is trying to figure out what's going on yeah he's not feeling things physically there are not contextual indicators that he's feeling if there are it's like a blip that comes up that
00:21:42
Speaker
Peaks through the cracks of his Mental processing Right and Everard does not know how to banter He just doesn't Like mean He's very serious actually You know like Darcy tries with him Poor Darcy he tries so hard and he flirts like his his life depends on it flirt And Everard's like oh do you You like me And Darcy's like, you idiot. You absolute idiot. It's not like I didn't write you 500 letters, you dumbass. It was so funny. He was brought in, I swear.
00:22:12
Speaker
i probably would have liked this book a lot less if Darcy hadn't been there. That's when I said that it kind of requires all three to work. Okay. So, but can we talk about the dynamic between the three of them? Because yeah I, I can see, I see what you're saying, but also i felt kind of weird about this as a romance book, not in terms of like, real people having a poly relationship because for so much of it it's like Everard loves V and V loves Everard and Darcy also loves Everard and is kind of watching them, but kind of in it, but kind of not.
00:22:49
Speaker
Right. Is how the dynamic felt to me. What does he call himself at one point after the Métis L'Étatage? It was like, I'll be your reserve or something. I'll be your... Yeah. And like, there's a scene at the end where Everard... where he's like, I'll be your proxy. V is like, well, Everard's wounded, so I can't fuck him. So let me fuck Darcy by proxy.
00:23:11
Speaker
And it's like, I'm like, that's so awful. Right. I at the very, very end, i think they maybe get over that. But am not sure. So I wanted to ask you guys about that in terms of seeing this, like as a romance text, and whether that made for a satisfying happy ending. So my read was, and again, I finished this in the very wee hours of the night and my eyes were kind of rolling back into my head. But the the way that I was kind of reading it was that each of these characters has some very clear limitations due to either the way that they're built, like the way that they're just they they just are or because of what they've kind of been through. hmm. And that essentially they're almost patching it together and they're trying to figure out how to do that imperfectly.
00:24:02
Speaker
So for most of the book, I actually felt quite bad for Darcy because I was like, he's been so in love with Everard and basically like gave everything up for Everard. And it felt like he was kind of second tier. Yeah.
00:24:16
Speaker
But on the flip side, it kind of also reads like... Darcy, because he's had to compartmentalize so much because of his life, that that seems like, and this might be of a generous read, but I think that the intention was that that's kind of what Darcy had to offer at that time because of his background. hmm. So Darcy's background being that he is the son
Relationship Dynamics and Emotional Balance
00:24:41
Speaker
of an Earl.
00:24:41
Speaker
And he well, he yeah, he's the son of an Earl. He's in the military. So those are two different facets. Plus he's a naval officer. Yeah. Plus spoiler alert. You know, we find out that he's been leading a bit of a double life. with like life or death consequences and so it feels like he has to ease into things a little bit differently and that he's offering what he's comfortable offering i was reading he was hurt by everard's rejections of him like clumsy rejections of him but that as soon as everard was like yeah i want you in my life that was all darcy wanted he didn't he just didn't really care what it was and it wasn't like he was like i'll take your scraps i'm just so lonely and sad it was like i have i've been so tightly compartmentalized that i am learning how to open up to you guys and that that was what he wanted which is interesting uh an interesting greed because darcy as a character is the one who at the surface seems the most open Yes, right because that's a cultivated facade. That's his persona. Right. Is I'm flamboyant and I feel comfortable like signaling that I'm queer in public in certain ways that Everard does not.
00:25:51
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And, you know, and that the reason I think he's he's actually quite necessary for those three is that while he is kind of the social lubricant for the two of them, sometimes like with his humor and his just flamboyance and living life out loud, He is also the one who is, i believe, the the most deeply loyal.
00:26:11
Speaker
So he he has been silently and quietly standing there for Everard no matter what all this time. Everard never has to ask him for anything. Darcy just does it.
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that V and Everard are a lot more like emotionally volatile. Yeah. So I guess my couple flags here that I don't that have really been raised yet by you guys is to return to Everard and Darcy had a relationship three plus like when did it start exactly? Not sure. But three plus years ago when Darcy was Everard's lieutenant lieutenant lieutenant if we're British, which we are. ah And ah well at this point, Everard was captain of the ship.
00:26:57
Speaker
we're We're British in this book. Well, and I say, well, kind of. Oh, because. Everard is like tech. It's not even really British. He's kind of. know. No, he's not. He was impressed from Spain and forged his papers to have citizenship so he could be an an officer. So he's just he's just i he's so interesting. I would love to talk more about him. But no. So we have a captain lieutenant situation. They're working together. They're both officers. But there's obviously power dynamic problems with their relationship. But.
00:27:24
Speaker
Eventually, they do have a sexual relationship and they are having that relationship when Everard meets V for the first time. and And Darcy is like, yeah, you go have fun with that. you know And he's like drunk, but he's like, the go, I'll see you if you ever get to wherever they're going. you know And then...
00:27:45
Speaker
Everard takes up with V at that point. It's very brief. And then they have the Battle of York, which is not to be confused with the Battle of Yorktown. It's an 1813 battle.
00:27:56
Speaker
Irrelevant. In Canada. Irrelevant. Because wars were happening in Canada during the War of 1812. Yeah. Relevant only in that Everett lost a bunch of fingers. Yes.
00:28:07
Speaker
So this is three years prior to the start of the book anyway. So they already have, I mean, I feel like that indicates that they have a non-monogamous relationship. Yeah. But there's the parts of the story here where Darcy is upset.
00:28:21
Speaker
He's upset about the metaletage. Which we can return to. We've not talked about that yet. Which we can And Everard's handling of it. And I think I agree with Ingrid there that that's more about him wanting to be seen and acknowledged and wanted than any driving need for monogamy. And then V is clearly comfortable with non-monogamy in his conversations. I didn't, don't know, maybe I missed some stuff. No, they are. Well, Everard needs to kind of learn to be okay with non-monogamy because it's so out of his brain that, like, of course, both of his partners would be okay with him having multiple partners. Yeah. To me, it just for most of the book felt emotionally unbalanced. Well, I felt that's what I was going to conclude with. I did feel like for a large chunk of the book, it kind of turned into the Everard and V show. Mm-hmm. Like when they escape this ship, it's very, you know, daring escape, breaking V out of the brig and swimming through Lake Ontario to this town, you know, like. So it's very exciting. And they end up like taking some other guys with them. And then like for a lot of the time, it's just Everard and V because I guess Everard is with V right V is captaining the ship and Everard is trying to figure out what his new job is because he used to be a captain and now he's like uh what like I don't have any responsibilities and so I kind of get why we're there because they're sharing a cabin there's all this stuff but like it was just them for a lot of the story Yeah. And Darcy felt a little shunted aside. Yes. Darcy felt a little shunted aside and also was. I mean, textually, he only shows up a few times in like the definitely hundred pages that I'm thinking of. Yeah. And when I meant and when I said felt shunted aside, that's what I meant. not yeah yeah oh like his feelings like as i was reading it oh got you yeah yeah well i think probably both a little bit but yeah the other two characters that they escaped with just kind of dropped off the face of the map too and i was like oh i'm kind of sad about that because that was fun like we all escaped we're gonna have a little poly family i guess i don't know like yeah tom the cabin boy cabin boy slash servant was like but are there pirate girls too like there's going to be all kinds of fun things going on there. And then they just like, yeah, who knows? So I thought that was a bummer for those, like not just the relationship in terms of having the polyamorous V it's because it's more of a polyamorous V I think than a triad, although I guess it gets to it, you know, triad ish, but just more broadly for, you know, character development and narrative. So let's talk about the metal attach, which Aaron mentioned. So basically what,
00:31:07
Speaker
That is is, it's a historical thing that happened frequently with pirates, but more in the golden age of piracy, like 100 years or earlier than this time period, where two sailors would enter into basically a common law economic partnership where they're sharing property and can inherit from each other. And in the historical record, it's unclear whether these partnerships also included pirates. sexual or romantic relations though in this case they do and what happens in this book is after Everard and Darcy break V out these like well you're our British officer Everard and so we have to figure out a reasonable reason for you to have done this that keeps my honor so we're gonna
00:32:00
Speaker
be life partners and we're going to enter into the, uh, Mattelatage together and you're going to be my mate. Um, and so that's a lot of what's going on with Everard as Aaron kind of mentioned is that he is now trying to figure out his place going from captain to kind of kept man. And so he's not just trying to figure out what's going on between him and V romantically and sexually, but also just like economically and hierarchically and logistically.
00:32:29
Speaker
Right. Because one of the explicit things that V asks of him is to not counteract his orders or... Just in the beginning, he's like, could you please just make sure that you don't, I don't remember how he said that, but basically just don't correct me in front of people for a while.
00:32:45
Speaker
Because as we learned, V has been absent from his ship for a while, and sometimes when a captain comes back, they have to fight for their place again. So there's a lot of really complicated factors going on. I found the matto letage very interesting.
00:33:00
Speaker
Now, I didn't think that I was going to know very much about this, but one of my children has been obsessed, not obsessed, but a really huge fan of a pirate named Jaquat Delahaye for a long time because it was discovered in the Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls book. So we had to go down a rabbit hole of all of these women pirates. And that's how I actually learned about Mattelatage. Ah, lady pirates who had them with each other. Yes.
00:33:30
Speaker
Cool. Now, Jaquois, I don't think she was one of them. There was another one who did and she had a woman and they, it was Matalatage and her partner who was a woman inherited her stuff afterwards. So I was like, this is not made, this is legit. You know, this is absolutely historically legit. Yeah. Which I thought was pretty cool.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Metal Etage, okay, full disclosure, I don't want to like be a big grump, but I did scroll through a few reviews just because I was curious of this book. And i read one that was like, this seems so anachronistic. And I have been really struggling with people's reading comprehension the past couple weeks because we just don't use critical thinking skills anymore, I guess. So I was already like, blah!
00:34:17
Speaker
ah So I want to talk about, yes, this is like, metaletage is a documented thing. And in this case, would they have publicized it to this extent? No. Like, obviously, it's a more private, typically, agreement, but it is a legal agreement, right? It's a legal agreement. So people have to know about it because it has to be honored legally, right? You have to be able to go in and say, this is okay. So reading this with an expectation that we're operating under British specifically, but even American, because at this time, American social values derived from British social values, right? Like, that's not where we are. You're approaching a different culture right now. And so there is no issue here of anachronism other than perhaps, like I said, this exaggerated element The other thing is that we had already brought up that v was tried on sodomy charges and men were tried on sodomy charges in not only the British Navy, but other places as well. But even though in Britain, there was a capital sodomy law beginning in the 1500s, it was usually not enforced. Right. And there are points when Everard even is talking about the past, like Everard and Darcy are both deeply uncomfortable with a sodomy charge added at V's trial because they understand that they could both be tried for this as well.
00:35:50
Speaker
Right. Well, and they're very explicit that this is something that their local admiral has started cracking down on and hasn't been an issue right for them in their respective 20 year careers. Yes. It's said, I think, explicitly that they they're sitting there wondering, like, well, was it was it not consensual? Because that was what they used to crack down on was if it wasn't consensual.
00:36:13
Speaker
Right. Right. even Yes, exactly. Otherwise, they kind of just look the other way. Thank you. And so Everard isn't worried about being put to death for sodomy. He's worried about being stripped of his pension privileges and yeah pension and being like transported. Like he's not even worried about having to go to a prison ship. He's just like, I'm just going to be set off to sea and not have, you know, the support structures that I was counting on for my end of life in retirement. So that's another thing that with a historical read on this, we've been trained to think that the historical consequences of these relationships are more dire than they were. And that's largely thanks to more stringent sodomy laws enacted during like the Victorian period, actually. Right. Yeah. Right. So like, yeah. Yes. Like Oscar Wilde did go to jail, but that was like 80 years after this. So we're not there yet.
00:37:13
Speaker
And also these guys, you know, being in the Caribbean for most of the book, and that's where kind of V is operating from when he offers the matalatage is, as Aaron said, just a totally different cultural context and one that's really, really in flux because of all the revolutions that are happening Yeah. Well, I think just to maybe kind of close a loop on this, especially for other historical romance readers, to draw our attention back to the series that we've discussed together before that Ingrid and I read. oh yeah. In the before times, right? Into the Wind, Song of the Sea, and Weather the Storm. Now, this is a YA romance. By Jean Ferris. Yes, by Jean Ferris. Thank you, Ingrid. It's it's a male-female romance, right? Like, it's yeah the privateer captain and the young woman who he rescues, question? We'll call it a rescuer.
00:38:02
Speaker
abducts whatever rescue slash kidnaps yeah ah beneficial kidnapping you're right and in that story which would be very typical of most traditional male female romances that most romance readers would have come across there are conversations about how rosie and raider can't be intimate on this ship because nobody else gets to be em intimate on the ship it wouldn't be fair and You know, and like, you know, you read something like this, you're like, okay. Or you, you know, watch our flag means that they're like, okay, like, these are mostly ships with like Holly said, like 200 men out at sea for months. Yeah. I'm not saying everybody's getting down. But I'm also not saying everybody's just sticking to their hands. Yeah.
00:38:46
Speaker
And I do have to say that so a secondary character, Millie Renee, who is V's second in command and is a woman who gained captaincy of her ship and then replaced the whole crew with an all-female crew. you know which I kind of liked as like Amazonian. Yeah, she's amazing. And I feel like at the very end, Caro is setting up a sequel for her and I'm all about it.
00:39:14
Speaker
right So I hope that happens, author, you are listening. you know But like whenever I meets her, he's so jealous. Because he's like, well, obviously. She has ah lady bits and V used to sleep with her. And also how does she climb the lines in her panniers? And I too want to know the answer to this right question.
00:39:34
Speaker
And then at the very end, Everard goes to her and he's like, you won't sleep with me. Can you please give me some advice? And she's like, you want advice from me about how to sleep with a man? and he's like, yeah. And she's like,
00:39:50
Speaker
I have an all-female crew. I need to explain this to you? he's just like, oh my god. Because again, Everard is not the sharpest tool in the tool shed here. But yeah, anyway, I look forward to reading about the all-lesbian pirate ship. at a later date right but I don't remember where I was going with that besides having to point out that it existed and and it's not just men I think it's not just it's not just it's like this is this is a community that people are interacting and engaging with others an isolated community like right people are gonna people no matter what right and presumably there were other female pirates oh yeah
00:40:37
Speaker
in the fleet who were maybe not on the lesbian ship ah right but like and bonnie who is a historical female pirate who oh who is the other woman who she pirated with but like both of them also had sexual relations with men because i mean they were both pregnant when they were captured and bonnie and mary mary reed i think mary reed yes thank you And they both sailed also with Calico Jack? Yes. Yes. But yeah, they were both pregnant when they were captured. So maybe they were lesbians, but they were having sex with men too. Yeah. Maybe the key takeaway for other readers is, like I said earlier, this book is Approach with Curiosity. This is like a don't just get stuck in the Victorian Western centric mindset of sex and sexuality, which does not even reflect the full scope. Right. Right. Of Western sex and sexuality, because people have been doing sex with all kinds of people in all kinds of ways forever. Yeah. Yeah. OK, well, maybe we've beaten that dead horse real good. So Holly, do you want to do the next like where are going next? Oh, geez. I don't know where we're going next. Ingrid, do you want to talk about the Black moment or? I mean, don't want to drive Erin totally crazy because it was released to her kind of Black moment. It is. And I feel like in this case, the information that is withheld and then revealed...
00:42:11
Speaker
is somewhat spoilery because yeah um in Swordheart we know because it's dual POV and in this case something is revealed to Everard very late in the book that he gets real mad about and has a little hissy fit which i personally thought was unjustified so I'm like team Aaron on this one mean yeah it's one of those things again where I mean like we can definitely talk about I feel like we've talked about it so many times about how my argument is always going to be the same that when an author tells you who a character is And it's very clear and consistent about who a character is that it's kind of on you if you don't like how they predictably react. You're right. My reaction was like, oh, Everard, you big dum-dum.
00:42:52
Speaker
But Everard's been a big dum-dum the whole time. Everard's been a big dum-dum the whole time. The entire book. I want to... I actually want to talk a little bit about Everard in this context, maybe because, yes, I guess we have this evidence of him, but he's also we have not said this yet. I don't think it's spoilery because it happens in like the first chapter of the second chapter. He's like a radical pamphleteer. but so this is like his kind of side hustle slash like between wars when he was probably on half pay he's working as a printer and in the text he constantly is i don't believe in the british crown like what it stands for i'm anti-monarchy
00:43:30
Speaker
anti-empower and yet he is a captain in the royal navy right he forged papers to become a commissioned officer so we have some inconsistency from him i guess maybe there and he acknowledges that in the text but also then as we get to this point is it something that from his background he could reasonably have been like i can see how this happened or is it just like totally blindsiding Well, I think this goes into Everard's character and his self-perception.
00:43:57
Speaker
Because I'm thinking about what Ingrid said last time. Are you angry and? He's angry that this information wasn't given to him. And also questioning himself because... Maybe this means that you guys don't see me as radical or as bound to my morals as I see
Character Development and Internal Conflicts
00:44:17
Speaker
myself. Well, that's very interesting because the other question that I was going to ask about Everard more broadly is I was wondering if he is maybe a little bit of an unreliable. narrative
00:44:28
Speaker
because there are so many times in the text when he talks about how he's like so for gain and glory he's like look at me pushing all these limits to become a captain and I would go into these battles and like go for victory and like there are certain references to his reputation at least until he gets injured when he personally is defeated like his ship is lost in York but on page in this moment in time we don't really see that we see he's he gives away most of his gains from his position as captain. He only has this one trunk of stuff. he is constantly talking about ethics and morals. And so like, is this? it's I mean, I think this is what makes him a really meaty character and perhaps something of an unreliable narrator because he's lying to himself a little bit because, you know, he talks about ethics and morals, but he has this moment, I think, when he's at his
00:45:25
Speaker
lowest low towards the where he's like, I always talked a good game and I would make my silly pamphlets, but I still did the career. Right. And I sent men to their deaths and I killed people for something that I don't believe in. So did I actually live my morals? Right. So when we talk about angry and, and when we talk about like Everard as a character, I think that the author actually does fairly phenomenal job of peppering in enough evidence, despite Everard being an, because I, I agree that Everard is an unreliable narrator. I think that maybe not, but it seemed kind of intentional because Everard's thing is that Everard, he doesn't choose. Right. He thinks he's choosing, but he doesn't actually choose. So like he's the captain, but he's also doing these pamphlets. That's he's got his foot in both pots there and both pots there. But also even sorry, are you going to get here to even with monogamy stuff? There you go. Where he's like maybe his internal. Sorry, just to pick up where we left off. In that part of the conversation, his upset isn't necessarily that he is worried that his partners are going to be upset with him and that he can't have it for that reason. It's that he feels like he needs to choose. He is trapped by his own shoulds.
00:46:45
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not just that. Think about how there's this section where he talks, he's talking about his relationship with v on the ship. And he realizes like, oh, well, Darcy has been given all these jobs and stuff. And Darcy is like signed on and, he you know, he's done all these things. And I don't have a job. And he's like, oh, it's because v wanted me to choose For myself, what I wanted. And so he didn't push me into anything. If V had said, i want you to do this, Everard would be coasting along, not making decisions again. So the point is that, in my opinion, and I will say this, I feel like so many authors nowadays... infantilize readers by just spoon feeding them every single moment of character and plot development and it's books like this that i really like because that doesn't happen here like everard in the black moment makes a choice and it's not a good choice but he makes it and then it forces Everard to process through a decision. And so even though it's really frustrating to watch, as it always is, even in real life, when we watch people make dumb choices, at least you chose it. do You know what i mean? Everard has to process through this bad choice in order to understand why he needs to make intentional decisions in the future.
00:48:05
Speaker
Not just interpersonally, but throughout his life, he needs to make choices for himself. Walk and walk, be who you want to be, you know? oh my god i love this it's coming from the beginning of the book i know he doesn't even decide to break v out darcy darcy does yeah he's like i'm gonna rescue v but he thinks he's gonna get away with doing it by like like forging some mitigating yeah mitigating taking the trial issues the safest possible non-choice yeah he doesn't even forge on all the letters love it
00:48:36
Speaker
Do you know what i mean? yeah So, yeah, I think that that's where it is so frustrating. But I love books where it makes you think about motivation and about why we do what we do. And I really feel like this is all right. New smut report thing.
00:48:54
Speaker
We should have a list of them. ah These moments of discomfort are almost always, unless it's a badly written book, right? But if the book is good, if you're sitting there and you're like, oh, this book is so good. And then the character does something and you're like, what the hell, man? I almost guarantee you, you're uncomfortable because there's something else going on underneath and you just haven't figured it out yet. So like in this case, the black moment is really annoying because you're like, Everard, you ding dong. Yeah. Literally, what were you thinking?
00:49:21
Speaker
But it's because he finally wasn't because he made a he made a decision and it was the wrong one. But finally, he made it. And the reason that the relationship works is because even though he's made the wrong decision, because think about it this way. His greatest moment of shame is losing that battle and his ship and his and part of his hand. Right. Mm hmm.
00:49:39
Speaker
So that failure really haunts him that, oh, I made the wrong decision. I made the wrong decision. Look at these consequences, this black mark on my record that he made the wrong decision and he lost the boat. And like, this is like the boat, right? I'm sorry. I apologize. Naval people. He lost his rowboat. Um,
00:49:58
Speaker
But he loses his ship. And so like he's made the wrong decision and he did it alone and he's suffering the consequences. Well, this time he's made the wrong decision again and there are consequences again.
00:50:10
Speaker
But he's got people who love him waiting in the wings to help him like regroup and figure it out and stand beside him. And it doesn't feel the same as it did before. And it's not because he has to make the right decisions and then he won't feel bad. It's because even if you make the wrong decisions with the right people, it doesn't feel terrible anymore. You know what I mean?
00:50:33
Speaker
When you make decisions independently, whether they're bad or good, if you build the right life with the right people, it'll all be okay. And that is why this book is a romance novel.
00:50:44
Speaker
Right. Because... This is the growth Everard had to do. Yes. as uncomfortable and clumsy as it was. So there you go. There's your psychology foot for the day, your character development for the day. And i eat up. I love when authors don't spell it out. i am so tired of authors feeling like in the last chapters, they have to have this big emotional reveal where they spell out Like they make their own DSM whatever for their characters about all the choice. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, don't tell me, let me sit with it. Just let them be imperfect. And let me just sit with this discomfort because that's when we get these moments like this. And I just think it's delicious. And I eat it up with a spoon and Aaron's rage is like chocolate syrup on top. And I'm just like,
00:51:28
Speaker
But this is a very fair point, Ingrid, even in view of my rage, is like characters, these guys, this is 1816. They do not even have a DSM, right? They're just like muddling through, living their...
00:51:44
Speaker
Weird lives like just making the best of whatever they've got. Making the best of whatever they got. And one thing I did appreciate about that is like Carol makes it very clear that these guys all have serious trauma. Yeah. Like in their past. But we're like we're not going to talk about because they're not going to talk about it We don't need to slog through it. It's um not the point. Yeah. You know it's just we we can see it. We see how it continues to impact them. But like I don't know what happened to V to make him the way he is. Yeah.
00:52:14
Speaker
And Everard doesn't know and Everard might never find out because that's not as important as the way they can be together now. Yeah. Yeah. I also think when authors do spell it out, especially with characters who have had no therapy, like books where you're like, oh, man, I feel like the romance is not what should be helping you here. Right. I feel like you need to unpack this professionally, maybe. And then they end it and they're like, my trauma was because I was abandoned.
00:52:45
Speaker
and And then you left and I felt so abandoned. It's like, OK, like, where did you come to that self-awareness? As opposed to this kind of scenario where they all understand they have trauma, but they also were living in a place where they're like, well, we just have to get through it.
00:53:00
Speaker
And so like buck up or whatever. and it would be ridiculous if you really thought about it. If they unpacked. This is almost a more realistic way of having them process their information, even for people who live now, right? Who haven't done a lot of more professional work.
00:53:18
Speaker
Therapy speak does not count. Yeah, right. Like watching lot of TikToks does not count. That's not it, guys. Because it help. I mean, the reason that professional intervention helps is because you have someone who is aware who can help break down things for you of why your trauma is still impacting your life. These guys aren't going to do that. No. Yeah. Well, and like, gosh, you could get me on the subject of...
00:53:43
Speaker
ah therapy we could talk about that for hours but I do think that it's just one of those things where I really appreciated the ways that the author did not beat you over the head with information that could be experienced slowly And I feel like when I think about why I enjoyed the experience of reading this book, I feel like that balance was present in a lot of the ingredients in the book. So there was a very, when we're talking about the historical information, sometimes there was a lot, sometimes there was less, but it wasn't ever too much. It was like just the right amount so that someone like me who I don't give
00:54:22
Speaker
two figs about the parts of the ship but by golly i want to i'm anxious about what's happening during this battle and i want to have some idea of what's going on it was just the right amount and it's the same thing with the trauma disclosure with these characters it would have been so weird like aaron said if we were given any more information than we were given and i don't think that the impact would have been as good it's important to feel uncomfortable whenever i'd make stupid decisions because he needs to make them yeah So i the balance of the choices that were made in crafting the book, I really liked them. I thought that they were done really well.
00:54:55
Speaker
so And i I agree. I really do so really think that another a follow-up book with Millie would be aces. Millie and Princey. Darcy. Darcy's little sister. Yeah. Steps on the ship right at the end. How exciting. can see it coming.
00:55:11
Speaker
see it coming. Okay. I feel like we've covered almost everything, but I do want to say... in terms of balance, the one naval battle scene that the book has was like simultaneously so tense and so slow. Yes! It did take a really long time. I was like, we're still the battle? Right. But it takes a long time to do a ship. Like think about turning a ship that big.
00:55:38
Speaker
I mean, it takes a lot. And like just the hours that it's like, yeah we're going to have a battle, but it's three hours away. I can see it. This has ruined. This has ruined. This has ruined other naval or like nautical books for me because what they were like, it's three hours away. and But they said it like it was like imminent. Like, well, there's no turning around now.
00:55:56
Speaker
It's three hours away. And I was like, the fuck you just said? Sorry, pardon my language. Bleep that out. the point is, is that I was sitting there and i was like, what did you just say? So I'm sitting there and onm like, three freaking hours. Really? And then I thought about it and I was like, how many times have I read other books where a ship sneaks up on another freaking ship? What does it have? An invisibility cloak?
00:56:17
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? Like, even in A Princess Bride, they can see it coming from a really far way away But, like, how many books have you read where it's like, oh, shit, there's a ship next to us? And I was like, dang it. Now I'm going to be so aware of that when I read books with ships. I'll be right but they're like, all right you had three hours. And then the author is like, all right, three hours before the battle. And then the author is talking about, like, all the things that they're doing on the ship to prepare. Everard's like, all right, well, we got to, like, move the guns here. And they're like frantically running around and it's too late to turn and it's too late to run. But there is also like, and then two hours before impact. And the funniest part of all of this is that then it's like 45 minutes. Right.
00:57:02
Speaker
and And and, no, let me do it. And V and Everard are standing there and V looks over and and Darcy's like, what's up Everard? and v looks at his you know like and he's like well he left it until the last minute but all right if you need to go bang one out so like 45 minutes it's like too close to the time like are you kidding me but then at the same time they had three hours like he's is kind of right they could have definitely found a closet earlier than this anyway i found that part it was so funny and i appreciated that because yes i I'll say it right now. EM Kara ruined all the ship books now because I'm going to be like, don't you dare tell me that a ship snuck up on another ship ever again. i I will not believe it because the film is off my eyes now. I know too much. Thanks to this book. Anyway.
00:57:47
Speaker
Okay. We went all over the place with this one. We really did. i'm just going to like call it. Yeah. think we did what we came here to if you something meaty. 80 times three and well researched and well researched but not something to read in the middle of the night no you'll miss things Rears and Vices by E.M. Caro Erin what's our next book club book Yeah, our next book I picked just off my TBR because it was available and easy ah is You Complicate Me by Isabel Jordan. So that's just a contemporary. i had read another book by Isabel Jordan last year. It was like Criminals Need Love 2 and it was very funny. And the the criminal heroine was like really delightful. You know, the ex who's like trying to get rid of her was like being all intimidating and she was like, please.
00:58:39
Speaker
I eat women like you for breakfast. I was like, I'm so delighted by this. So I'm really hoping that it has similar energy. We'll see. Yeah. You complicate me. You complicate me by Isabel Jordan. Awesome. So that will be our next book club. In the interim, we'll be doing some tumble reedsing, which... you know, is like this except more chaotic because Erin doesn't edit things out like she hopefully did with this conversation. I will definitely do it with this conversation. It was very long. We don't need to know all the history of it
00:59:09
Speaker
yes show notes can be slash podcast. You can find us on various social platforms at until next time. keep it smutty folks.