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Tumblereads 23: That's Not Cute
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When family members (in romance books!) stomp on boundaries but the characters in the book shrug it off…that's not cute. But what's actually going on with these scenes?
Full show notes at smutreport.com/podcast
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Smart Report podcast. It is Tumble Reads today. i am Erin and I am hosting this week's discussion with my Smart Report friends who are Holly. Ingrid! Dang it! ah Yes, Holly and Ingrid. So, ah unsurprisingly, as we are always the same three people every single time. We always the same three people. variety.
Should We Invite Guests to the Podcast?
00:00:28
Speaker
uh ingrid keeps saying that we should invite people on the podcast i'm just like i feel like we have enough chaos we are very chaotic i don't know it would be fun in fact i was going to suggest that as a possible conversation topic who if you could like and if you had to invite someone on the podcast who would you want to interview and why i think they'll be a fantastic I'll add it to the list, but it's not my day today. It's Aaron's time to shine. Always a list. Okay.
What is Meta-Romance in Literature?
00:00:54
Speaker
I'm going to let us have a choice today because I, we recently discussed, well, we recently did a, was it let's talk tropes about meta romance. And we've talked about meta romance a lot, but I recently read a couple books out of a series that where the author, and this is not the first time I've experienced it, but it doesn't happen a lot, where the author put like the author self-inserts. So in the case of this series, the author has made one of the characters like a romance author who writes the romances of the characters that are like, it's kind of like we're in the moment and then the author character like publishes the romance about their romance later. Are talking about like, interest it's kind of like a bridge It's breaking the fourth wall, but also meta. The narrator is the...
00:01:50
Speaker
No, no, it's not the narrator. Well, in the first book, that this character is one of the couples in the first one of the pair in the first book, and I didn't read that book. I skipped to a different book because I wanted to read the specific trope. um Okay, so let me see if I'm understanding this. So i this is something, I think if I'm correct, this is something that A.K. Kijano maybe does, if I'm correct, where she'll just put in a little... Well, yours seems to be a little bit more intricate, but where the author will kind of... insert something so that you're aware that the author is part of the dynamic right so like she'll say something like well and obviously this character did this because and then she'll make some like little witty comment about how like and it's kind of poking fun at the genre is that what know no no no because i feel like more explicit that's like that's like what ingrid's describing is like what like a loretta chase like what she did in um winking
00:02:43
Speaker
Yes, it's a wink. or it's That book we buddy read by her. Yeah, an excellent like omniscient narrator too. Oh yeah. Lord of Scoundrels.
Author Self-Reference in the Rock Chick Series
00:02:53
Speaker
No, but it sounds like Aaron, what you're describing, is it more like Romancing the Stone, where she has her whole romantic adventure and then, but she's a romance author and then she writes her real life romantic adventure as the book that she then gives to her publisher. Yeah.
00:03:09
Speaker
I think that would count in this. Okay. The most explicit version that I could cite off the top of my head, not like explicit like that. Ingrid, get your head out of the gutter.
00:03:20
Speaker
Is in one of the Rock Chick books. It wasn't one of the first ones. It was later on in the series. Like Kristen Ashley is the author of the Rock Chick books. And she...
00:03:31
Speaker
they start talking about like the characters all almost all we're going bookstore. Right. And so in one of the books, they're all talking about all these books published by Chris and Ashley that are in their bookshop that base like, and the books all are the rock chick books. Like I don't understand. I just don't understand anything you're talking about. It's and it's not you. I'm sure that it's just that i my brain is like on its last. It's like, my brain is like my car.
00:03:59
Speaker
When I wait too long to get an oil change, it's just not there's nothing there. It's where the okay, let me see if I can boil it down better. The author self references in the book, they put themselves in the book as um a character.
Reactions to Authors in Stories
00:04:12
Speaker
in that So it's breaking the fourth wall, where the in a way that the author is part of the story, like either a character or mentioned by a character. So in the rock chick books, it let me Okay, so rock chick book number one is called rock chick was to say rock chick and in rock chick series book number four they go to a bookstore no they work in the bookstore okay whatever whatever that's not the important part they go to the bookstore and somebody comes in and says hey i'd like to read a romance and the character is like hey check out rock chick it's a great love story
00:04:49
Speaker
Basically. I mean, that's not quite what happens, but yes, basically that is what I'm describing. And so it's similar with this other. Yeah. Well, so I think I had seen it from, was it Jen Prokof at one point was like, this is so cringe. I don't want to put words in her mouth at some point on the Twitter, like way back when I was still reading Chris and Ashley, somebody started talking about it. was like, this is so cringe. ah um And I know Jen has like mixed feelings about, I don't think she's been reading them with the more recent releases, but like, why do I keep reading these books?
00:05:20
Speaker
but you just keep reading them, you know? um So it might've been something like that where it's just like, I just can't stop. Like it's fun, but also why?
00:05:31
Speaker
ah ah And I was like, huh? Cause at first I was like, that's, oh, that's playful. And the more I've, and it doesn't, like I said, it doesn't happen a lot, but when it does happen, I'm like, Do I think this is cute? So anyway, okay. Well, the other thing, maybe that's not the thing to talk about, especially since you guys are like, I don't even know what's going on. It feels like if you you make sense. I want to validate this, but in my head right now, it feels like, have you ever seen that gif of like Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia with like the strings on the wall and like all the...
00:06:02
Speaker
Like, that's what it feels like. I know you're saying things that make sense, but it's like, you're sitting there and you're like, and then this connects to here. And I'm like, I'm lost. It's like a web of strings. I'm so confused. Okay, what's the other Basically, it's a level of meta romance. Yeah, it's a level of meta romance where it's not just the author is, it's not just the main character is a romance author or they just reference books. It's that the author is self-referencing in their own book, basically.
00:06:32
Speaker
Right. Okay. What's the second?
Family Behavior in Literature: Cute or Overstepping?
00:06:33
Speaker
What's your other option? So my other option is, and there are so many ways that we could take this. i I was listening to a book and this happens to me so much because I read a lot of books about like families and i want to talk about that Or the ways in which we present, authors present overstepping behavior as cute.
00:06:57
Speaker
And it's usually moms who have like no boundaries, right? That's the topic. But that's cute and funny. i I would love to unpack that a little bit because I read so many of these books and I love like a happy family where everybody is like, yay, like unrealistically perfect almost, which is another conversation. But I just I read it and I'm like, that's actually really gross behavior. Like, it's not cute that you over involved in the birth plan for this couple or whatever. Yeah. I think that it's it's a really fun topic of conversation because I think to fine tune it when you tell me if if you think this would be like a good launching point, Erin. But I think that because what I like to think about, you know, I'm always talking about like writer's craft or whatever, but there's a line.
00:07:45
Speaker
There's always a line because we like mess. We don't like perfect characters, like you said. Right. Right. If you're if you're going to have a plot that revolves around conflict between individuals, you're going to have to have.
00:07:57
Speaker
boundaries overstepped or, you know, behaviors that aren't acceptable. So like, where's the line? And how do you get, how do you, especially when it's tertiary characters that are involved in the conflict, right?
00:08:08
Speaker
Because it's really easy for tertiary characters to become flat and if it's about their behaviors then they become automatic bad guys right because you don't have enough context to be like so but you're talking about those bad guys I'm talking about it as a context of like well it's overstepping behavior but it's like oh isn't that cute my mommy loves me and it's not a source of car in my house uninvited see yeah oh it's fine that she decided to invite people over after I got out of the hospital because I was shot because everybody cares about me even though I'm recovering from a gunshot I've been reading a lot of a single couple mystery series.
00:08:44
Speaker
ah So it's also like, it's not one book
Role of Tertiary Characters in Plot Development
00:08:48
Speaker
often. It's like, I was talking more of the spectrum, like of behavioral choices. I see. You're talking about possibility exists here and that's one thing versus. Right. So like if you're on the one end of the spectrum where you're like, I don't have any boundaries and it's totally fine. And then you're at the other end of the spectrum where it's like this character violated my boundaries egregiously, but they're so flat that there's no dimension to the character. There's too much dimension. Oh, it's perfectly fine. We have such a close relationship that all of their behaviors are accepted, right? Or there's not enough dimension. They're a bad guy. They did this terrible thing, right? So like from an artist's artist's craft perspective, it's it's almost like a tertiary character question.
00:09:26
Speaker
you know, like, how do we build out these decisions? How do we, you know, when we craft these tertiary characters and their relationship with the primary characters, those are plot drivers. So it's important. I love how Ingrid is immediately going to craft with this. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah. No, it's fine. I think it's good. But, you know, the way Aaron is describing this, right, is the example she gave. Let's go to the example she gave, right, is my mom, I am recovering, come home from the hospital, and my mom threw me welcome home party. Mm hmm.
00:09:57
Speaker
And in the book, it's presented as this is a cute and loving thing. Right. As opposed to a boundary stop stomping thing. Right. Right. And but if we're talking about this from a crafting character perspective, like that also just tells us a lot about this character. And I think there are some people who who do want that kind of thing. Right.
Cultural Perspectives on Family Dynamics
00:10:20
Speaker
right And what does that teach us about the characters? Or is this lazy craft by the author where they're just trying they're trying to show community but don't think through... It's happening clumsily. yeah Right. And they don't think through the nuances of what else the reader might take from this that undermine the character work they're trying to do. Right. Exactly. Where it's... it's yeah I think I'm... I think I took Aaron's idea then I was, I slid right into like craft because in my head, I'm like, well, if you are missing, if you're doing it where it's noticeable enough for someone to be like, why is this character okay with that behavior? Like they're totally fine this. Really?
00:10:59
Speaker
for me, it's, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, I think it's an interesting question, you know? So if you're, well is it a cultural question too? i think it is a cultural. lot of it is like, there's the, the one. So I read, was it the, it was like a whole family by Isla Olson. I wrote a review of it, the series on the blog. So we'll link to it, I guess. But it was like, it's this whole family. It's like a big Irish family. the mom the mom is very has a very strong personality and like lots of expectations about how the family will engage and it's like they look it's a big loving family like they don't not have issues obviously there's like stuff going on with all the characters and all the books but there is that element of well that's just how mom is and you can't say no to her You know, like I can't tell my mom that I'm uncomfortable with this situation, like to take the party situation. Actually, there was a party in that, too, I think, where that came up. It was like, well, we just have to do what mom says. It's like, well, if you don't want if you don't want to go to the party, then i that's that's an opportunity to talk about. Right. But if but like you're talking about real life and, yeah you know, if you're talking about craft, then like you're like, OK, in the plot that I'm trying to make, I need this party scene.
00:12:18
Speaker
hmm. And I need a way to make it happen. So I'm going to just have mom do it But introducing the, it and just saying, well, we have to do it because mom says is kind of like a cheat code, right? Yes. Where we can, I can cheat to get my characters to this place where normally they wouldn't want to go Whereas if they do set up these boundaries, then that introduces a whole different kind of conflict the book would have to address.
00:12:43
Speaker
I have an alternative example that I think could also flesh this out a little bit, which is um like, in books where the friend group or the family intimate tertiary characters are, um, overly interested in the primary character's sexual relationship.
00:13:01
Speaker
Do you get what I'm saying? We've talked about this before, but I think it's it correct me if I'm wrong. I think I'm tracking with what you're saying, right? Where it's, I think about romanticy where they have a rate in an elevated sense of smell and everybody just, there are so some, some,
00:13:14
Speaker
books where it's polite to just ignore it right so like but there's a common scene in those books where the heroine is suddenly made aware that all of the guys in the traveling warrior camp know that they were just getting it on in the tent because they have an elevated sense of smell but they're too polite to mention it this i identify with culturally that makes sense to me in a lot of these books they'll make comments about it like ah the friends will be like adjusting their pants and stuff and they'll like make comments about how it's so hot that they were just getting it on behind a tree And I'm always like, ew, no, nope, immediate, no, thank you, nope. And I know that that is a choice that the authors are making, but to me, it's uncomfortable.
00:13:53
Speaker
do you know what I mean? There are other books, like I'm thinking about... um Who is the author? She's Canadian and wrote it abroad about cherry pies. Oh, Jackie Lau. Jackie Lau. Jackie Lau. I got you, Ingrid. I know i knew you would, Holly. um We should play that. um that Like, name that tomb. Yeah, you and I should be on a team. um Anyway, so she does that a lot, Erin, where she has, because a lot of her characters are from Asian cultures, and so a lot of them have a more, um like, closely entwined, heavily invested,
00:14:27
Speaker
um connection with their parents and their and intimate family members right it's just a closer it's a different connection with the community and she does a really great job her the relationships in hers almost always investigate that kind of you know push pull from her sherry characters she does a great job that and yeah exactly and it's just I think that the key here is is how it's unpacked when it's just assumed when it's treated like it's just assumed that this is normal no matter what background you're from it's kind of like whoa okay that's
00:14:58
Speaker
really? Okay. But, but i think should we be okay with this? You know, should we just say, okay, but I'm glad Holly mentioned the cultural aspect of it, because in my head, I was just like, you know, i I had a little moment where I realized, like, well, yeah, that's why I thought the sexual interest thing, that to me is a very clear cut thing, because I think that it's hard, it's hard to, for me to think of a culture right now where it would be okay for people to like, really like pile on about being able to tell that you just did it with your partner. do you know what I mean? Like, that is a good point. Cause I do think there is an interesting cultural thing happening in the United States anyway, uh,
00:15:38
Speaker
Where people are acknowledging that they have the option to say no to things that make them uncomfortable, but also, ah which is great, but as with all things, you know, it's not just
Balancing Community and Individual Choices in Stories
00:15:53
Speaker
one word. one thing or one action or one situation so we're also by extension there's um some development of and less community oriented thinking which i think like this family thing that i was describing like well mom said we're having dinner on sunday is at her house every this is the i love someone more like uh we're having dinner at her house every sunday and if we don't go then it's the end of the world kind of a thing
00:16:17
Speaker
okay um and you know to a certain extent there can be room for close-knit family to make that a priority to maintain their relationships um but but i think for me when i start to see other sort of red flag behaviors like demanding grandchildren as opposed to you know just expressing some gentle curiosity about what do you want to have kids in you know like there's the there are ways that authors can do these conversations that are kind and curious and open and then there's this like cutesy I can make demands because I'm your mom and I just think like oh my god if my if I I cannot imagine doing that to my kids I mean i can kind of imagine it because I'm like oh my gosh what if I do something and they never want to talk to me again
00:17:10
Speaker
ah But like the thought of of approaching them like I can make demands of them as adults is a little bit mind blowing to me. And my kids are little. I have an example of this that's really good, though. Do you want to hear it? OK, sure. OK, it's Ella Fields. She has this series. I will figure out what the title not going to look right now because don't hold up the conversation. But.
00:17:32
Speaker
In her books, like Erin's example, we go to weekly dinner, right? She has that exact dynamic. um And I think when we're talking about execution, so she even sends someone over and is like, you missed it yesterday. So we're having a redo today and you're coming.
00:17:48
Speaker
Like that's how it's like your presence is mandatory kind of a thing. um And it's a found family. It's not a biological family. But one of the things that's really interesting is that she pads that so that immediately when they get there, so that you don't hate their guts, right? there's a very clear line in the sand where they are, they have questions about who this chick he's bringing with is, but they, they are overt about the fact that they respect that it's none of their business. And they're just glad to have him there. And she is so welcome. And whatever she wants to share about herself is fine.
00:18:19
Speaker
do you know what i mean? So I think that the execution of that is really good because it shows that like, we are a found family and we are, this is important and you don't get to just bail right on our connection this is we do weekly dinners but on the flip side it's like we we will take you as you are you do not have to do anything or jump through hoops to like you don't owe us information about your life we just want you in our lives kind of a thing and i think that that's it's there's a level of emotional intelligence with execution here where you can have dynamics like that there are plenty of healthy families where like if mom says she wants to throw a party You throw a party, right? Yeah. But there are ways that it happens that shows that everybody's feelings are being taken into account and that the execution is. And I think it's the silliness factor that you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. It's that giggly, silly factor that makes it kind of off-putting. Yeah. Well, I'm just thinking about, like, that I feel like this is a funny thing with romance novels, especially.
00:19:14
Speaker
Where we we get into this dynamic, like we're describing something that characters are doing that we as humans would find awkward in real life. And that we want to see this kind of ah like healthy boundary, but still close community behavior modeled in our books. Right. Yeah.
00:19:40
Speaker
But does that actually make good art and good romance? And is that like, is that actually what we want in our books? Right? Because i you know, we, we also have these conversations about just contemporary romance and like,
00:19:56
Speaker
I remember when I first started reviewing, I'd be like, oh, good job, A+, plus about like communicating openly about your feelings or like yelling about the characters, not just like having a conversation.
Healthy Relationships and Reader Impact in Romance
00:20:10
Speaker
and now there are all these romances where people are very well behaved and have conversations. And they're boring. These are so boring, right? So i feel like, you know, there is this struggle, especially with romance, where people, where we want...
00:20:25
Speaker
romances to simultaneously show us healthy relationships not and not just romantic relationships like healthy relationships with all kinds of different people across the spectrum but then we also kind of don't because they're not fun to read right and and i think straight and i see what you're saying erin is that your problem is where it's kind of showing something unhealthy but not acknowledging it is unhealthy. is that i don't That tends to get me for sure in a variety of spaces, not just this particular one. So yeah, that's definitely part of it.
00:21:00
Speaker
Right. But then the other struggle i think with romance is because these are books about relationships. People are bringing, it's a lot more visible sometimes when people are bringing their own baggage and biases to them. Right. And in the example you were giving about like, we have a party because mom says, and also mom's got mom is always saying, and when, when are you giving me grandchildren?
00:21:26
Speaker
when When am I going to have my grandbaby? I want to hold my grandbaby. Like this could also just be the author, ah not, reckoning with their own relationship with their parents right or that this is like because i feel like yes you fought you personally find that uncomfortable but that is a super super common dynamic at least among families in the united states yeah this brings up i'm you know how i i sometimes periodically ingrid has an assertion right and I have an assertion.
00:21:59
Speaker
It's a hypothesis. I believe it's going to prove to be true. Here is the new TSR hypothesis.
Writer's Craft: Narrators and Biases
00:22:05
Speaker
Everything is a writer's craft issue. I think that's everything is a writer's issue because I agree with that. And that's why when I go there, when we have these conversations, I'm like, okay, but how do you make it work? When does it work? Cause that's what I'm thinking too. I was going to ask Holly that also.
00:22:21
Speaker
Okay. But like when it's the main couple and they're all being well-behaved, it's boring. Is that one thing? But what about when you get into their other relationships and And then I think when you said, oh, they're not reckoning with it, maybe that's the key element, right? Right. That if it's just presented as, you know, I think it's easier when it's just presented as pure conflict, right? Because then the character gets to overcome this boogeyman. Right. But it's not. But when it's like loving and kind energy, that's a that's a different thing to address. Right. I think it becomes an unreliable narrator issue. And this is why, because I'll tell you why, because these things don't happen in a vacuum.
00:23:00
Speaker
So we're looking at somebody who, who is engaging in an intimate relationship with a partner, right? And we're supposed to be cheering on and believing that this person is, this relationship is worth cheering for. We're here for it.
00:23:13
Speaker
We want this to happen. We're dying for this to happen. Like this is the point of the story, right? Is whatever relationship is forming. If this character is also having evidence of breakdowns in other intimate relationships in their lives, right? What this shows is this is an area in the plot where the character, there's a need, there's a call out for growth for character growth. right yeah it doesn't matter that it's not the primary relationship this character has growing to do and because we know that relationship dynamics ah it's it is an immature both at writing style and in real life it is an an immature stance to believe that one character can inflict um perpetual behaviors on another character and it's only that character's problem if there's a problem
00:24:00
Speaker
it's a mutual problem because even if this character's making all the choices that are causing the problems, this character's letting it happen continue to happen. Right? Right. So not reacting is a reaction.
00:24:10
Speaker
Correct. This is why it's a writer's craft issue. And this is why I, this is, this is where I think the line in the sand is. If I were sitting here and if you guys were my pupils and I were teaching you my college writing class, ready? Because of this, it becomes an unreliable narrator issue because as a reader, we don't necessarily automatically think to ourselves that huh, this character has this huge growth opportunity and we're being told that this this growth needs to happen because it's part of the plot, but it's only this guy's issue. There has been no like self-reflection, no growth on this character's part, no acknowledgement of their role in this, right? And so now when we're looking at their other choices and their relationship with the primary you know other partner, right?
00:24:50
Speaker
We can't really trust that like we're supposed to believe that they have this really great, healthy relationship with this other person or that they're going to have this really great, healthy relationship with this other person. when they're we're getting clear evidence that they are ostriching about other issues in their lives do you see what i mean and that's why it's annoying because we don't trust them anymore we're like you're immature stuff yes thank you if Professor Ingrid says, this is all, it's a writer's craft issue. When it's handled negligently, we we get annoyed and frustrated because we on some level without realizing it, we don't feel like we can trust the narrator anymore.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yes. I think that's true. Because there are these moments that are, we're getting indicators as a reader. Growth needs to happen. It's not happening. Even in a rom-com, you can still be funny and yep playful and not fall into this pit trap. I was going say trap, but it's not really a trap. It's just a... Yep. and that's why that's why i get interested in where the line is. Because I think the key here when we talk about this... And Aaron is so good at this because Aaron brings up... I love having these conversations with Aaron and Holly.
00:25:53
Speaker
Because Erin brings up, she has these strong knee jerks. She can sense injustice and things that are like not right. She can smell them from like five miles away. She's like, I didn't like this and I don't know why. and then Holly sits there and she'll unpack the logic of it, right? So she like unearths it like an archaeologist. And then I can swoop in like a professor and be like, it's all about writer's craft. Yeah. And psychology. And psychology.
00:26:25
Speaker
Anyway. Well, but that's also a much more interesting conversation to have, although I feel like it's a more interesting conversation to have if we actually have the text in front of us. Yes, good light examples. Because saying, like, oh, you got to set up boundaries, then i'm like, well, if I want to talk about where your boundaries are, I'm just going to go read am i an ah am I the asshole? Like, that's all anybody writes about there. And yeah that's not good for my mental health. Let's talk about how we can, like, craft this into an interesting story instead.
Jackie Lau's Rich Tertiary Characters
00:26:53
Speaker
And Jackie Lau, I think, is your example. Because Jackie Lau does not vilify the tertiary relationships. She adds... relevant cultural context. She adds, she has the tertiary characters in her books have shockingly rich backstories that you hear about. And it makes it so that all of a sudden the everybody's growing.
00:27:15
Speaker
You know mean? I think in one of my reviews, I said that it's like her, her stories tend to be a romantic primary relationship, but all of the relationships give you that full heart feeling, you know, there's growth in so many relationships. Now that doesn't mean that like the characters are perfect. They're still very messy.
00:27:32
Speaker
And I think that that's one way to do it. But like I said, the book that I was talking about by, um what's her nugget-ness about with the dinners? Oh, Ella Fields, yeah. Ella Fields. um hot Characters are a hot mess. Absolute dumpster fire. And I still felt like there was there were really good examples. Like you were able to root for it because it wasn't in your face. The boundaries are there. The growth is there. But it's not in your face. It's not. It's carefully done. I just felt like some of this stuff, there's a certain degree of finesse and emotional maturity that kind of help inform it. I think that we also grew up with a lot of Sex and the City stories where it was like, you know,
00:28:09
Speaker
We're best friends no matter what, even though we hurt each other all the time and are not self-aware at all, but shoes, you know? And um so there's that. ah Growing up in the aughts and 90s, how exciting for us Right? All right. On that note, let's close this conversation potentially. Yes, there's so many things we can continue talking about, but for another day.
Podcast Conclusion
00:28:33
Speaker
ah So as always, you can find whatever show notes exist and all of our other podcasts at smartreport.com slash podcast. You can find this podcast on a variety of podcast, you know, apps. You did it once. Good job. do it again do it again subscribe hit that little button yeah and we'll yell at you every sunday night it'll be so fun yay or at each other but we don't yell actually there's not a lot of yelling there's not much yelling oh my gosh let's not get confusion
00:29:09
Speaker
We might be on the socials. If you want to come and find what we are doing on the socials, our handle is at smartreport. And until next time, next time we'll just be some ah some more tumble reading since we just had our like our ah book club long form. So ah see what we talk about next time. it's It's a mystery to all of us, just as it is to you. Until next time. Keep it smutty, folks. Smartreport!