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Kids and Sleep {Episode 8}
165 Plays6 years ago
Is there anything all moms need more than a good night's sleep? Bonnie and Audrey tackle the frustrating (and often polarizing) subject of how, where and when to get your kids to sleep!
We're sharing what the experts say about how much sleep each kid needs, as well as sleeping arrangements, tools for dealing with kids who need less sleep and more.
Join us in helping more moms get the rest they desperately need!
Show notes:
Amount of sleep needed for infants
Amount of sleep needed for kids
Bonnie's post on getting a baby to sleep through the night
Bonnie's post on calming a cranky baby
Audrey's tutorial for making a swaddle blanket
Bonnie's recommendation for Velcro sleep swaddles
Bonnie's recommendation for sleep sacks
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Outnumbered the Podcast
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Outnumbered the Podcast. I'm Bonnie. And I'm Audrey. And we're moms to a combined total of 16 kids with two more on the way. Yes, we know that sounds insane, and it usually is. But we're here to share the tips that help us keep our sanity and to share inspiring thoughts that help us get through each crazy day. Uninterrupted conversation is foreign to us, but we'll try. And we invite you to join us on our journey as we find joy in the chaos of motherhood.
Episode Focus: The Importance of Sleep
00:00:47
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome back. We are here with episode eight for you today. And today is a good one because we are going to be talking about sleep, that magic S word. Yeah, this is Audrey and we're excited for this one because sleep is essential, something we're often not getting enough of. So let's start with the strangest thing we've done or said while we're sleep deprived.
00:01:14
Speaker
So the strangest thing I've done while sleep deprived was my fifth child, baby girl had colic for the first six weeks of her life. And finally I was so desperate to get her to stop crying at night because it would start about eight o'clock at night and go for four hours. She would just scream.
00:01:36
Speaker
I decided, okay, I'm going to crack this nut and figure out what is causing this. First thing they often say to address is when you're breastfeeding is change your diet. I went off of all foods except basically celery and water. Oh, so awful.
00:01:54
Speaker
and then started introducing things back in. And yeah, we finally figured out it was dairy. So I could have like zero dairy, like not even, you know, frying an egg and butter. It was nothing, no dairy at all. And after six weeks of that, then we got back to where I could introduce a little bit. But yeah, that was a pretty crazy time eating cellar sticks and water. Oh, you poor thing. And that's so sad.
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah,
Personal Sleep Deprivation Stories
00:02:18
Speaker
you know, my oldest was a colicky too and there is nothing like the torture of a child who will not stop screaming no matter what you do. It's awful. In fact, I remember getting like super awesome biceps because the only way he would calm down is if we bounced him a certain way with our arms extended. And it was like the most painful workout ever, but it was worth it for the five minutes of silencing.
00:02:41
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, we should do a whole episode on colic. Oh, we should. Yeah. Poor moms. Yeah. How about you? What's the weirdest, funniest thing you've done or said, well, you were sleep deprived.
00:02:52
Speaker
I'm sure I've said lots of things that I can't remember, and I'm probably not very nice when I'm sleep deprived. But I remember specifically when our twins were infants, we were getting no sleep, and it was for like eight months. It was awful. At the beginning, they were sleeping in the same crib, and then as they got older, we put them in two separate cribs. But the problem was we often couldn't tell who was crying. They all just ran into incessant crying at night.
00:03:17
Speaker
And then I often wasn't awake or alert enough to know whether my husband had gone to get one or not. And so one night, in fact, I think this happened a couple of times. I got up to go get a baby and I'd go to one crib and it'd be empty. I'd go to the other one and get that kid that was crying and wouldn't have registered that, well, if one crib is empty, then Luke is up with one of them. So I would grab the baby and I would go to sit down on the rocking chair and he'd already be there.
00:03:43
Speaker
So I'd go sit on his lap and go, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm out of the room to find some other place to walk to sleep. But I think each of us sat on each other a couple of times. Stop crying, baby. I'm sorry. Oh no. Yeah. Boy, when, when you're not getting enough sleep. Yeah. It is like, it is like torture, pure torture.
00:04:06
Speaker
So we talked previously about how important sleep is for moms in our episode on when
Sleep Needs by Age and Expert Advice
00:04:13
Speaker
you want to quit and taking care of yourself. But the problem is mom can't sleep if the kids aren't sleeping. So kids sleep comes first, just so that we can sleep, right?
00:04:23
Speaker
Right, exactly. So this can be a pretty controversial topic because there's a lot of different schools of thought out there about the right way to get your kids to sleep. And there's different ways of looking at sleep habits and, you know, from cry it out to attachment parenting, everything and everything in between.
00:04:41
Speaker
Yeah, agreed. And I think that sleep is one of those ones that starts a lot of mommy wars. We all just want the same thing. We all want sleep without torturing our children, right? Right. But if we're arguing about it, we're probably sleep deprived.
00:04:58
Speaker
And you know what I've realized is that really there's, I'm pretty sure that the magic place for all of us to be in all those schools of thoughts is somewhere in the middle, right? Where we're teaching our kids how to get a good night's sleep without letting them scream for hours and without sacrificing our own sleep.
00:05:16
Speaker
Um, so I think that above all, we can all agree that the kids need to sleep and everyone behaves better when they're well rested. The trick is just figuring it out. Yeah, absolutely. So we're going to start with what we feel is the most important and that's the amount of sleep kids need to be happy and healthy. Right, right.
00:05:35
Speaker
I think we can all probably tell when our kids are getting enough sleep because they wake up rested and they're not cranky in the afternoon, that sort of thing. But sometimes as they change phases, it can be tricky to understand if, okay, do they need more now or less? And sometimes they regress a little bit. So these guidelines definitely vary by children, but we did a little research to find out just exactly how much sleep the experts are saying that each kid needs at each stage.
00:06:01
Speaker
If you are not sure if your kid is sleeping enough, grab a pen and write down these guidelines to kind of give you a headstart into making sure your kid is sleeping enough. So starting with a new baby, newborns to about three months sleep 16 to 17 hours a day, which is kind of awesome. Unless they have colic and then no one's sleeping right.
00:06:23
Speaker
Right. But when they are sleeping, then you're getting maybe hopefully an extra nap in there too. Hopefully, yes. Sleep when the baby sleeps, right? So for those little babies, they're sleeping about half their amount of time during the day. So about eight hours during the day and then the other half at night, hopefully. Although it's not usually without interruption.
00:06:42
Speaker
Then when they get to about six to 12 months, they're sleeping 14 to 15 hours with two solid naps during the day. That's usually when kids get on a pretty decent schedule of the morning nap, the afternoon nap, and then going to bed at night. The naps should subsist of like three to five hours during the day. And then when they turn about 18 months to about three years is when they'll start just doing the one nap and sleeping about 11 hours a night.
00:07:06
Speaker
But it is totally normal to give up a nap at any point during that time, which is really, really a sad day. But it happens. Yes. And then sometimes they do a nap every other day as they're transitioning through that phase. Right. I've had a couple of kids where they'll give up their nap and then crash hard four days later. And then I'm like, you need a nap once a week. My three-year-old's kind of like that.
00:07:31
Speaker
So then the three to six year olds sleep about 10 to 12 hours and then it just goes down about an hour to each phase after that. Seven to 12 year olds sleep about 10 to 11 hours and then the teenagers need about eight or nine hours. So that hopefully gives you a rough idea of what kind of sleep your kids need. So do you think most of your kids have followed those guidelines, Audrey?
00:07:53
Speaker
Well, yes and no. First of all, please don't hate me, but all of my babies have slept through the night from like the first week. Oh, slow clap. No wonder you have almost nine. I don't know whether to hug you or slap you. But I've got a couple tips for later on when we're talking about babies that I think maybe might be the key or it could just be genetic. I've got sleepy kids.
00:08:22
Speaker
Cool, all right, can't wait to hear them. But then there's some other things that'll interrupt a kid's sleep or make them sleep more. So when they're teething, they just sleep horrible when they're teething, because their teeth hurt, right? Yeah, for sure. And then when a kid is having a growth spurt, they definitely sleep more. You'll see them grabbing a nap during the day, even a teenager. You'll walk in the room and be like, hey, I thought you were at side work. And then, nope, they're snoozing on the couch. Yeah, yeah.
00:08:50
Speaker
And then speaking of teenagers, I don't know if your oldest has shifted to this yet or not, but it's like their biorhythms actually change and that's why teenagers stay up late at night and sleep in in the morning because they're actually not sleepy until about 10 or 11 at night and then they're sleeping in in the morning. Has your oldest transitioned to that yet? Yeah, he totally has and it's really annoying.
00:09:15
Speaker
And all of a sudden for the first time getting to that stage where I need to go to bed before my teenager and I don't really trust him up alone by himself. So I'm like, well, we turn off all the devices and I just say, lay in bed with the book. I can't stay up till 11 every night. Oh, I know. But it's actually been shown that the teenagers like their biorhythms actually change and that is their like their key hours to get sleep is later to earlier.
00:09:42
Speaker
That's really interesting. Yeah, really interesting. How about your kids? Yeah, I've definitely had
Children's Sleep Habits and Personality
00:09:47
Speaker
some exceptions as well. For me, it seems like I see the phases to where they need more sleep or less sleep. But for me, I've also noticed that it totally depends on the personality and just how a child is built. So I have one little wild one who needs a ton of sleep and sleeps like the dead. Like when she is asleep, there is no waking her up. And so she wets her bed for like
00:10:10
Speaker
still forever, she's seven. So she's got some really wacky sleep habits and I've noticed that if she has a little nap or anything happens out of the ordinary, all of a sudden she'll be up half the night, just kind of wackier sleep patterns than others. And I have to be a lot more patient and take a little bit of extra time with a bedtime routine with her because it's exhausting. She just takes a lot.
00:10:31
Speaker
a lot more to get to sleep and then crashes hard. And then I have another one who really recognizes when she needs sleep. And she's the one where all of a sudden we'll be having a family party and we're like, Oh, where's Kira? Oh, she's in bed. She just put herself to bed. Oh, that is so funny because I have a kid in each of those categories too.
00:10:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's just important to be aware that each kid is very different and you got to work with these habits and personality traits that each kid has and not against them or else it's going to be painful. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:11:08
Speaker
Okay, so let's talk about sleep setups. Now, these vary by family and living situation, home. And so, you know, what our house looks like, your house is not going to look like that and anybody else's house isn't going to like that either because we're all constrained by our houses, right?
00:11:26
Speaker
Right. So this is what the setup looks like for our age. Well, first of all, we live by choice in a three-bedroom house. Awesome. That's cool. And we have almost nine kids. So that means there's lots of co-sleeping happening here in our house. So from zero to five-ish, there's a baby or two in bed with us.
00:11:53
Speaker
We have done that from the very first. When we were expecting our second, we got a king size bed. So that there's room for everybody. So then after five, or it's different for each kid, but after five, they don't really want to sleep with mom and dad. They notice that the big kids aren't in there with mom and dad.
00:12:17
Speaker
And so they, but they don't want to sleep by themselves since they've been used to sleeping with somebody else. So then they're usually like two siblings in a bed. Like for example, we have bunk beds in those, the kid bedrooms. My husband and I have a bedroom and then we have kid bedrooms.
00:12:31
Speaker
We have bunk beds in those, and so there's like a couple kids per bunk bed. Oh, I say three bedroom house. We also do have a guest house out back, and my son that's in college has transitioned out there, which is really kind of nice because if you remember from the introduction episode, he's six, eight, six, nine. There's no room for him in your house.
00:12:53
Speaker
It's like, okay, you could go sleep out back. Wow. Yeah, for real. So, what bed does he sleep on? I'm totally curious. Yeah, he sleeps on a queen size bed, kind of diagonal. Oh, okay. That's smart. Yeah, because I was looking to say, King is probably even too short for him.
00:13:09
Speaker
I know when he goes off to college in his junior year, he'll have to get like one of those extra long kings because you know, crazy. And then the thing that changes is when dad goes on travel and there's more room in the king size bed, then it's always full. It's like they sleep horizontal and there's like everybody's in my bed when dad's gone.
00:13:31
Speaker
And I just posted a picture like last night or the night before on my Instagram stories of three children completely taking over my bed when I went to sleep. And I'm like, rude. Dad wasn't there and they just took over without me. And the problem is now like seven months pregnant, there's only so many kids I can move while they're asleep. It's like, all right, well then I don't have to stay here because I can't get her out. You won't kick off the floor.
00:13:58
Speaker
Go sleep on the couch. How about at your house? What's your sleep setup?
Family Sleep Setups and Co-Sleeping
00:14:01
Speaker
So ours is a little bit like less attachment parenting style simply because that's how I started out my parenting journey is I really wanted my oldest in his own bed soon. And I don't know, I think part of that was I was really kind of anxiety-ridden when I first had him and every little noise he made woke me up. And so after six or eight weeks, I was like, I am exhausted. And even when he's sleeping, I can't get sleep. He'd hiccup and I'd go, oh my gosh, what's going on?
00:14:27
Speaker
So we moved him to his own crib. And so now I'm a little bit, I don't want to say lazier, but it is kind of lazy. I don't want to move them out because it's easier if a kid is waking up to take care of them in the same room. So generally we have two bedrooms that the majority of our kids are in. And then my oldest has his own because we promised him that when we moved here to this house. And then the baby sleep, the toddler sleeps in her own room too. She's almost two because my baby's just really sleep well when they're in a dark room alone.
00:14:57
Speaker
The interesting thing is I really have noticed how often we have to shift things around as kids change phases, right? So for example, in our last house, we had basically just one room that everybody was in because I wanted the baby to have her own room. It was a nightmare. So I have three troublemakers. And if any of those three are in the same room, no one ever gets to sleep. It's like midnight before anybody ever crashes.
00:15:23
Speaker
And so it was killing me. Every night, bedtime would roll around and I would just pull my hair out. And then if my husband was out of town or at a meeting or something, I would just die. It was so painful to get kids to sleep. So we moved here and we figured out a setup to separate each of those three kids into different worlds. And all of a sudden it was like the heavens opened and angels sang because all of a sudden kids just went to sleep. So I just share that because sometimes we just have to be willing to change things up a little bit.
00:15:52
Speaker
kids grow up or regress or something and we have to just be willing to... Your kid is really, really needing you at night. Put them in bed with you. It's okay. It really is. Sometimes we... I've done so many things that I said, I will never XYZ because sleep is important to me and I just do what it takes to get in. Yeah. That's what you said about feeling lazy for having the baby in the same room with you is
00:16:17
Speaker
I don't know. I guess I like sleep too much to want to get up and go take care of that baby if they're in a different room crying. So that's totally where I am on having the baby sleep with me. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So now we're going to share something that we never thought we'd do to get sleep.
00:16:32
Speaker
So, I like to feel like I'm a totally awesome mother and I'm always there for my kids all the time, but at night, here's what I do. So, the baby will probably need nurse or something in the night. If there's a greater possibility that the baby's going to need something at night, a diaper change or whatever.
00:16:54
Speaker
And so I take, my husband and I have agreement. I take care of the baby if it wakes up at night, if or when it wakes up at night, and he takes care of everybody else that wakes up in the night. That's kind of awesome. Yeah, I like that. It is awesome. But there's nights and weeks where he never has to get up and you know, getting up those times. But if kids are sick, if there's puking, it's your husband, huh? Yeah. And you know what? To be honest, he is so much better with puke than me.
00:17:22
Speaker
That's really good. That's really nice. Especially when I'm pregnant. Oh, yeah. Oh, no good. No good. Um, yeah, I can't tell you how many times I've bolted up right out of bed because I hear someone pat into my room and go, mom.
00:17:36
Speaker
Nothing will wake you up quite like that. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, there's probably quite a few of these, but one of them pertains to my oldest who had the colic. There were times that I just thought, I can't handle you tonight. And even though we've by and large gotten rid of all the little baby devices that we thought we had to have at the beginning of parenting,
00:17:57
Speaker
Back then I had a baby swing for the first two kids and I put them in there a lot, especially with that colicky one. And there were multiple nights when he slept the entire night in that swing with it going. We burned through so many batteries because I just was like, look, you're happy and asleep. I'm happy and asleep. And for a while, the swing was on the main floor and I slept upstairs. So for a while I would camp out on the couch because I was nervous about leaving him there by himself. And then I was like, you're strapped in, you're good. I'm upstairs. Yeah.
00:18:27
Speaker
Oh, that was something my first, my midwife taught me with my first baby was, okay, during the, during the day, a newborn should eat about every two hours, she said, but at night, if they're asleep, don't wake them up. Yes. Thank you. I hear a lot of that. Now, you know, if you're talking to a medically fragile kid or somebody who has a weight gain issues, that's a different story, but for a healthy kid with no concern about getting enough calories during the day, do not wake that baby to feed them. I promise he will be okay.
00:18:58
Speaker
Get some sleep. In my experience, no baby has ever starved to death quietly, right? You're going to wake up and he's dead because he was starving all night long. No. He will let you know. Rest in the fact that he's doing good. Yeah. If he's sleeping, he's got everything he needs. Exactly.
00:19:16
Speaker
Okay, so there are really two parts to this sleep equation and we've been talking about it in this, in our conversation here. So the first part is that we've been talking about is getting kids to sleep at night, getting them in bed through the routine and asleep. And then there's the second part, keeping them asleep. So there are some reasons why kids wake up in the night. We talked about sickness, you know, them walking in announcing that they're not feeling good and then followed by that.
00:19:43
Speaker
Another one you mentioned earlier and we've had this too is bedwetting. They wet the bed and then they wake up and they come in. And then like sometimes a storm or noise or something, some loud noise will wake them up and so then they're awake and you get to go through that putting them to sleep part again.
00:20:02
Speaker
And the last one I could think of was reasons why my kids have gotten up in the night is nightmares. So, um, if they're sick at night, you know, there's not anything you can do about that. You just get up and take care of them. You know, Bonnie, maybe we should do a whole episode on bedwetting since we've both had experience with it. Oh yeah. That's a good idea. It's a problem I think most moms deal with at some point or another.
00:20:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And there's just kind of, you know, kids learning to be potty trained, but then there's kind of an extended age where there's still bedwetting and there's some stuff you can do about that or we found successful. So let's say future episode on that one. Yeah, let's do it.
00:20:39
Speaker
Okay, noise. We can minimize, you know, noises at night, but there's nothing we can do about like a thunderstorm or something like that. So I think really what I found is just to be comforting to my kids at those times is the best. Like if I'm crabby because they woke me up, that's not going to go for them at all, even though I'm feeling very crabby.
00:20:59
Speaker
And then nightmares, that's kind of a childhood thing. But one thing I have found is that if my kids have a sugary snack before they go to bed or within an hour or two before they go to bed, they're definitely going to have nightmares and probably some bed wetting too. Oh, really interesting.
00:21:15
Speaker
If we do a different kind of snack at night, like a protein, a snack, a piece of cheese or maybe a little bit of yogurt or something like that, they're way less likely to have a nightmare. But if they have an ice cream cone before they go to bed, they're going to be in my bed crying about some wolf or something that we're dreaming about. So why do your kids wake up in the night?
00:21:36
Speaker
Yeah, they definitely have some of the same issues. We've been lucky and don't have a lot of that. Most nights, nobody gets up. But yeah, getting to bed would probably be the bigger struggle for most of my kids. One thing I wanted to mention in regards to reasons kids wake up at night, but in regards to babies is that there are different reasons, obviously. I mean, they're wet in the bed every night and they don't care because they're going to diaper on. Yeah.
00:22:00
Speaker
But sometimes it can be just part of the sleep cycle. They're lighter sleepers and so something wakes them up or they think they're hungry or it's just a habit or whatever. I think the number one thing to remember when it comes to babies and getting them back to sleep is to keep things
00:22:16
Speaker
As sleep conducive as possible, right? So like with my first, I was spending so much time awake in the middle of the night nursing him that I just kind of made a party out of it. I would, you know, turn the TV on and you know, cause it was like lonely and kind of scary getting up by myself. And I was kind of having postpartum blues and
00:22:34
Speaker
And it helped me emotionally to get up with my baby when there was something fun to do. And then I learned the hard way that my kid could not fall back to sleep because there was all this light and noise going on, you know, even though he'd fall asleep to the TV, you know, before, before bedtime.
00:22:50
Speaker
that light in the middle of the night kind of disturbed his sleep patterns. And now, instead of getting up, walking to the other room, picking my baby up, and sitting down and reading a book or something, I just roll over, pick up my baby, nurse him, and put him back in bed. And he barely knows he's awake. You know what I mean? Yes. Especially for babies. And this can work for older kids too, but to keep things as conducive as possible. Don't let it be party time. Don't let it be exciting. Don't turn on all the lights. Right. It's just sleep time. Yeah.
00:23:17
Speaker
And if they are hungry, like sometimes that happens, a kid has a really hard time going to sleep because he's hungry or wakes up or whatever, you know, plain piece of bread. It's not fun and they won't do it again. Yeah.
Effective Bedtime Routines
00:23:28
Speaker
So finally, the most important part, how to get kids to sleep and stay asleep. Of course, like we said before, this really depends on each child and you know your child the best. And it depends on the kid's habit and their stage of life and their personality. But do you have a kid that loves or hates sleep?
00:23:46
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Like I mentioned before, my two seven-year-old twins are the funniest about this because one is the wild hyena that will stay up all night if I let her. And the other one is the one that's like, it's seven o'clock. I'm going to bed, mommy. And like we said, you kind of have to just go with the flow on those things, but there are certain things that can help kids. So one thing that really helps my wild one who doesn't like to go to sleep is to just prepare her well ahead of time.
00:24:13
Speaker
So one thing that's tricky for my kids is if they have any screen time at night, you know, sometimes it's fun to watch a family movie or something, but it does not, it is not conducive to sleep because I feel like my kids always have a burst of energy they need to get out before bed. And if they're sitting watching the movie, then as soon as the movie's off, that's when the energy comes out instead of
00:24:30
Speaker
Oh yeah. Running around the house and wearing themselves out before asleep. Yeah. I read somewhere that after you look at a screen, something with the blue light and the way it interacts with your brain, it takes two hours for your brain to finish processing after you're done looking at a screen. Oh, I believe it. Yeah. I also try to limit my kid's screen time to like, you know, say eight o'clock. Okay. No more. Right. Because I want you to sleep by 10.
00:24:55
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And I've noticed even with myself, if I'm scrolling Instagram and then I put my phone down, good luck falling asleep. It's going to take a while. Oh yeah. It's better to read a book or something. To start the routine early for her, to give her plenty of warning and to, like one small thing is just having her get her pajamas on like an hour before bed. So it's early in her mind, as soon as dinner's done, upstairs with your pajamas on. It's not bedtime yet. Don't worry.
00:25:20
Speaker
But then we're going to read some books or then we're going to whatever. But that's just her personality. She has a hard time with transitions and she needs to be prepared well ahead of time. So that's just something to think about for those kids that hate bedtime. Yeah. Well, I have a kid like I mentioned before in each of those categories too. My four-year-old is like this and this was the way that my 18-year-old son was too. They fall asleep like right after supper. I mean, just, you know, they've eaten, that's it for the day and good night, you know.
00:25:49
Speaker
So that, you know, that kid's real easy to deal with. But then I think I said this before to you, maybe you and I in conversation, but I felt like I was a good parent, a good nighttime bedtime parent until I had number eight and she is throwing everything out the window. I've never had a kid like this before.
00:26:10
Speaker
Oh, she's such a night owl. And you know what's funny is she was like this in the womb too. So about nine o'clock at night, my womb would just start jumping around and it would go on for like two hours. So she was warning you. You should have known.
00:26:26
Speaker
Oh, no. And now it's the same way. Like she'll, um, about nine o'clock, you know, she might be crabby before nine o'clock at night. And I'm like, Oh, she needs to go to bed. But nope, about nine o'clock at night, her little eyes get this light in him. Party time. That's the worst feeling ever to look down at your kid and go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I know what you're thinking. I remember getting up with the babies in the middle of the night too. And you're just, you know, half asleep nursing this baby.
00:26:53
Speaker
And you look down thinking, are you almost done? And the kids looking at you with these big wide eyes like, is it time to play mom? You're like, oh no. So since I'm pregnant, my solution has been, okay, you want to be up. And the teenagers, they've got these, you know, biorhythm late night things going on here. Kids have, here's another participant for your party. I'm going to bed. Great. Don't forget to put the two year old to bed before you do.
00:27:20
Speaker
That's pretty great. Yeah, so bedtime routines are essential for all kids, but like we mentioned, especially those that have a hard time and tend to fight sleep. Ours change all the time, but here is a little overview of what's working for us right now. Our evening schedule changes a lot because we try to read scripture with the family, but sometimes dad is gone, so that kind of changes a lot. But we try to do something together as a family, read some books together or something like that after pajamas are on and dinner's all cleaned up.
00:27:49
Speaker
After that, everybody goes up to their rooms and has to finish up getting ready for bed, whether it's brushing their teeth or putting their glasses away or whatever it takes, and maybe a quick cleanup of their room if it's a disaster. And then usually during that time, I'm putting the littlest one to bed. She just requires a little bit of rocking and a song singing, maybe a book, and then I put her in her crib and walk out.
00:28:11
Speaker
Lucky. I am lucky with this one. My almost two-year-old is an angel. She sleeps awesome. So I'm grateful for that. And then those middle kids, so you know, ages like nine down to five, they're all in one room right now and we will read a little bit more together. There always has to be some sort of reward for making it to the bed in my house. So that's the thing that they fight the most. No, I don't want to, but if I can get them in their room and you know, in the rough vicinity of their bed, then I can generally
00:28:42
Speaker
Right now, we're reading Harry Potter together, and everybody really looks forward to it. So, okay, if you get up there, you get an extra five minutes of Harry Potter. If you dawdle, it's only going to be seven minutes or whatever. Of course, I'm terrible at actually following through with consequences. And then the older ones are pretty good at putting themselves to sleep. So that's kind of what's working for us right now.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Bedtime routine for us looks like, well, like I mentioned, um, a protein bedtime snack, um, for them. So they, they know that usually around nine o'clock, I tell them it's time to have your pajamas on and get embedded. So then they ask for their bedtime snack and they, you know, have a quick piece of cheese and all that.
00:29:17
Speaker
One thing they really like is when one of their older sisters, teenage sisters, will read aloud to them so that she'll get a book started and read them a chapter a night. But I only allow that if they're actually in their rooms by 9 o'clock. And that consistent time, whatever it is, whatever works for you and your family, that consistent time is really important because then they know
00:29:39
Speaker
They're not always pushing the envelope. How late is mom going to let us go to bed tonight? Right, right. So I have a question about that. Let's say that your kids don't obey the consistent time and that's their threat, that they'll miss the chapter of books. So let's say they're up till 9.30. Then how do you get them up there? This is a family friendly podcast. So you beat them.
00:30:08
Speaker
No. No, then I, I don't know. I thought I'd start threatening to take away their, you know, their chapter. Not only can you not read tonight, but I'm going to make it that you can't read tomorrow night, you know, too, or something like that. Okay, cool. Cool. Yeah. Cause I, I feel like that's probably the biggest struggle for most of us is, you know, we might have a little reward planned or some sort of privilege, but once they've lost it, then the motivation is kind of gone, right? And it's especially hard for the younger ones that can't really see in the future and understand, but, uh,
00:30:37
Speaker
Yeah. That's always really helped us to have some sort of positive, something they can look forward to, but only if they're obeying, right? Right. Okay. So here are a few additional tips for creating your own successful routine because it's going to look totally different from ours, maybe a little similar, but probably unique to your situation. I'd say the number one tip is keep it short. Remember that for it to be successful, you have to do it every night. And so if it's a long drawn out thing, give it one week and you're going to be done.
00:31:06
Speaker
I've been there and gone, why did I say that I would read 10 books every night? This is ridiculous. So keep it short. I'm not going to stick to that one. Right, right. Make it fun and rewarding both for you and for the kids. So there have been some books that my kids love that I'm like, I don't want to go up and read.
00:31:22
Speaker
But I'm a Harry Potter fan, so we've all been enjoying it. Make it fun and rewarding, but still calming, right? So like I said, one reward for getting your pajamas on is an episode of a show that often works against me because then they have some more energy to get out or it's the blue screen thing working on their brains. So make it fun and rewarding, but still productive towards bedtime.
00:31:47
Speaker
Make sure that you yourself are staying positive because as soon as you lose your cool, then the kids lose their cool. And they can tell that you're stressed out and they don't want to participate anymore and they don't want to cooperate anymore. Or if you can't do that, you've had a long day and you're just done, tag in a husband, tag in a grandma, maybe even- If you're taking an older kid, like at my house, an older kid. Right? Maybe you even have a neighbor that you could swap reading bedtime stories with or something because you're done with your kids and you'll go read to their hers or something.
00:32:16
Speaker
And then make sure this goes back to what we were saying about the baby. Make sure that getting out of bed after the routine is over is not a fun experience. So if your kid pads downstairs after you've put him to bed, that is not the time to feed him hot chocolate or to ask him about his day or to be a fun mom because then he's rewarded for it, right? And so you got to ignore that bad behavior, give him a straight face, take him right back to bed.
00:32:41
Speaker
and reward the good. So the next morning when he stays in bed, oh my gosh, I'm so happy that you stayed in bed last night. Good for you. How was your sleep?
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah, some tips and warnings about bedtime routines.
Why Do Children Wake Up at Night?
00:32:52
Speaker
Like I mentioned earlier, we do limited drinks after 8 p.m. And then just something else to be aware of is some people have an evening bath routine. Baths are calming to some kids and other kids get super energized by a nighttime bath. So you, of course, know your kid the best. But there's some of my kids that do not get a bath. Right. Yeah. Because they're just jumping in and making a mess anyway. Yeah.
00:33:18
Speaker
One last thought about small babies, because I feel like when we talk about sleep, that's usually where people get hung up the most is the small babies that haven't yet been taught how to sleep through the night or get to sleep on their own. These little ones need sleep the most and really can be gently taught to do so. So like we talked about before, I think
00:33:36
Speaker
The two main camps are, well, you got to let your kids scream until they fall asleep, or you have to hold that baby until they sleep eight hours. And if they wake up, you got to hold it. There really is a middle ground. And I remember my first three kids, I just kind of thought I was this amazing parent because my kids also slept through the night really early on. And I was just like, I don't know what to tell you if you got a kid that won't sleep. Mine are just awesome.
00:33:58
Speaker
or rather I thought I was doing it. And then we had the twins and I realized no, sometimes babies need to be taught how to do that. And so I just wanted to point out that please keep working at it if their schedule is unacceptable to you. So if you have babies that are staying up half the night and you cannot handle it,
00:34:18
Speaker
There's things you can do about it. There's research. There's great books. There's great habits and things to get into. Sometimes it takes a little bit more work at the outset to get that reward, but it can happen. But that being said, don't feel like you have to follow anybody else's rules or schedules either. So like with my last couple of babies, they didn't sleep tonight.
00:34:36
Speaker
early on, but I had them in bed with me or close to me and it really didn't bother me. I really kind of relished the nighttime feeding time. I'm getting older and realizing that my baby years are short and I just kind of enjoyed it a lot more than I did with the first couple of kids and so I didn't bother. I didn't really bother training them to sleep through this night until a little bit later. So that's just my little caveat there is if their sleep schedule is killing you, you work at it until it's
00:35:03
Speaker
That's something that you can live with. But if not, don't worry about what anybody else says. Right. Exactly. One thing I have read about, and one thing we've experienced too, with having the small baby either in bed with you or in the same room as you, is you are actually training them to sleep. And this is how it works.
00:35:25
Speaker
When you exhale, you exhale carbon dioxide and they breathe that in and it triggers something in their brain that tells them to breathe in. So if you were to listen, I mean, you can't listen when you're asleep, but if you're listening or recording the patterns, you would see mom and baby breathing and they're kind of breathing in the same rhythm, but kind of like a sine wave that goes, you know, alternating. So that's kind of something that's kind of really cool. Yeah. And then, um, so sometimes, you know, you'll drop down into that really deep REM, um, sleep.
00:35:54
Speaker
not REM sleep, but that really deep sleep and you won't be moving. And so then they'll fall into a deeper sleep and they won't be moving.
00:36:01
Speaker
And then, you know, maybe you have, you come up out of it and you're in that REM sleep, you know, where you have that rapid eye movement and maybe you're having a dream or you stir a little bit or twitch or whatever. And that actually brings them up out of that deeper sleep into that REM sleep too. And so their sleep patterns echo yours as well, not just their breathing, but their sleep patterns. So anyway, that's kind of cool thing about when you're sleeping, you're actually training your kid to sleep. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying being up and watching TV is not training them to sleep.
00:36:30
Speaker
training them to be up and watch TV. Okay, so I promised I would share a couple other things that I think have been key to helping my baby sleep through the night. Now, first thing I have to say is I have big fat babies. So my littlest baby was eight pounds exactly and they go up from there. My biggest was 10 pounds, four ounces.
00:36:51
Speaker
So, if a baby has enough body fat to sleep through the night, I mean, you know, you can't do anything really about your baby's birth weight. But if they have a lot of fat, they are more likely to sleep through the night. Yeah, you do get lucky there with the chubby ones. That's true. So, if your breast milk has a high fat content, it will help your baby sleep better. Did you know that? Oh, interesting. That makes sense.
00:37:15
Speaker
Yeah, so I didn't realize this until I had a cousin who had cancer and I was pumping milk for her baby because it was breast cancer and she couldn't feed her baby, obviously.
00:37:30
Speaker
going through chemo. And my oldest daughter went to stay with her at that time and help out with her other children while she was going through chemo and helped take care of the baby and all that. And this cousin told my oldest daughter at night, she had discovered that if she put, now I couldn't supply all her baby's needs, she was getting some from a milk bank or whatever too.
00:37:53
Speaker
And she said, now make sure I've discovered if you put like an inch of your mom's milk in the baby's bottle at night, the baby will sleep all night. So you just have magic milk. You have chubby babies and magic milk. That could be. That's awesome. But I do eat a very high fat diet, high protein, high fat diet. And so I'm guessing from things I read that that might be
00:38:18
Speaker
a reason why. And you know what? Try it. If you're breastfeeding a baby and they're not sleeping good, try eating a steak or some bacon or something. It'll be delicious if nothing else. Right? Just some cream in your granola or whatever. Yeah. It could just be a coincidence, but that was an interesting little anecdote that my daughter shared with me the other day.
00:38:42
Speaker
And then, oh, I wanted to mention too that there is a colic hold that you can do on babies, small babies that you can Google it so you can see it exactly. But what you do is you paste the baby on their stomach, on your forearm, and then you kind of bounce them. And like Bonnie said, you get amazing forearm.
00:38:59
Speaker
I am very familiar with that hold and I actually did a video of my favorite five or six baby holds for ones that are cranky, so we'll have to link that. If you can't get a kid to sleep, a baby to sleep, try one of those holds. I'm pretty sure it'll work because at least one has worked with all my kids.
00:39:17
Speaker
Yes, definitely. Okay, cool. Yeah, we'll link to that in the show notes. And then the last thing is with newborns. And we do this up to even six months as we swaddle our babies. So a lot of times you see the baby do that. A newborn baby or even a very young baby do that kind of, they flare back with their arms like they're scared. And if they're swaddled, they can't do that. So they're getting more comfort. Oh yeah, for sure.
00:39:42
Speaker
So, that leads us into the last portion of today's episode, which is our recommendations. Mom recommendations and today's are going to be related to getting great sleep.
Sleep Products and Book Recommendations
00:39:51
Speaker
So, talking about swaddling, one of my favorite items to have for a new baby is a great sleep sack or blanket that's designed for swaddling. So, nowadays, I just use the really thin muslin blankets. You can get at Target or Walmart or wherever, or even just make your own. But they actually also have...
00:40:11
Speaker
you're not quite as confident in your swaddling skills or your baby is really strong and gets out of them. You can buy these swaddles that are like these little diamond shaped blankets. You put your baby in the middle and they have strategically placed Velcro so that you just follow the instructions and swaddle your baby and they are Velcroed in there and they cannot get out unless they're Houdini. I have seen this. Yeah. And then they have also sleep sacks. So like these little bags that go on your baby that can keep them nice and toasty and feeling a little bit more secure so they can sleep better.
00:40:40
Speaker
And then finally, I have a book that goes along with sleep training your baby and it's called The No Cry Sleep Solution. So this one, in all honesty, there's nothing hugely revolutionary in this book, but it gives you a step-by-step process for teaching your child how to get to sleep and how to sleep through the night. And I didn't think I needed that until we had our twins and I was just so gone.
00:41:04
Speaker
I was like, I don't even know what to do anymore. So it was a great place to start. I highly recommend it for first time moms or any other mom that gets a kid that is just really stiny in them. They cannot figure out those problems. Okay. My two recommendations are also swaddling. I did a blog post on how to make your own swaddle blankets and that's, uh, swaddle blankets are probably about the easiest thing to make. So this blog post shows how you can make a swaddle blanket in different sizes and with different kinds of fabrics.
00:41:33
Speaker
And so, we can link that one in the show notes. And my second recommendation is also a book. Way back when I started having kids, the only book available was The Family Bed. And I definitely recommend that book if you're considering co-sleeping, which I am totally a proponent for. But there's a newer book out. It's called Good Nights, The Happy Parent's Guide to the Family Bed.
00:41:57
Speaker
So that's got a little bit more updated information and new studies and stuff. And I totally recommend that book. Cool. Well, thanks so much for your recommendations and thank you to all our listeners for listening. We are always so grateful to have you here and we will talk to you next time. Bye.
00:42:14
Speaker
Thanks so much for listening to Outnumbered the Podcast. You can contact us at outnumberedthepodcastatgmail.com and find us on Instagram at outnumberedthepodcast. We're so grateful for our listeners and would love it if you take the time to leave us an honest review on iTunes, Stitcher, or any other podcast platform. And don't forget to share the podcast with your mom friends. Can't wait to talk next time. Bye.