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More Than Just Money – a conversation with Andrew Miller
11 Plays2 days ago
Andrew Miller is the creator of the Business Enjoyment Model and author of the book More Than Just Money.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Andrew discusses with host Michael Millward how and why people find it difficult define why they work.
Many people forget the reason why they chose a particular career. Instead, the job they have and where they do that job can become a way to impress other people.
As Andrew says the more successful someone is, the more stress they are exposed to. For other people, who want to appear successful the potential for stress is increased.
Andrew and Michael discuss the real meaning of success and how to achieve success.
This is an interesting discussion in which guest reflects on their career and the behaviours that have generated their success.
Find out more about both Michael Millward, and Andrew Miller at Abeceder.co.uk
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Matchmaker.fm If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if like Andrew, you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
Travel
Andrew is based in Wakefield, West Yorkshire. Members of the Ultimate Travel Club, can travel to Wakefield at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, package holidays and all sorts of other travel purchases. You can become a member at a discounted price by using my offer code ABEC79 when you join-up.
Fit For Work Look after your health and you will be fit for work.
It is always a good idea to know the risks early so that you can take appropriate actions to maintain good health, that is why we recommend The Annual Health Test from York Test.
York Test provides an Annual Health Test. An experienced phlebotomist will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests covering 39 different health markers are carried out in a UKAS-accredited and CQC-compliant laboratory.
A Personal Wellness Hub gives access your easy-to-understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime via your secure, personal Wellness Hub account.
Visit York Test and use this discount code ABECEDER2.
Three the network Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
If you would like to be a guest on The Independent Minds, please contact using the link at Abeceder.co.uk.
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Independent Minds' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:22
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida.
Zencastr and Podcast Creation
00:00:28
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
00:00:35
Speaker
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, and Google.
00:00:46
Speaker
It really does make creating content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
00:00:59
Speaker
All the details are in the description.
Episode's Aim and Guest Introduction
00:01:02
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for creating podcasts, we should create one, one that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:13
Speaker
Very importantly, in this episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Andrew Miller's Approach to Enjoyable Business
00:01:22
Speaker
Today, my guest independent mind, who I met on matchmaker.fm, is Andrew Miller.
00:01:29
Speaker
Andrew's claim to fame is that he helps entrepreneurs enjoy their business so much it makes their bits tingle. Only a man from Wakefield in Yorkshire could make such a claim sound plausible.
00:01:41
Speaker
If you would like to visit Wakefield and meet other men like Andrew Miller, a place famous for its rhubarb farms, a good place to plan your travel is the Ultimate Travel Club. It is where you will get trade prices on flights and hotels, etc.
00:01:55
Speaker
You'll find a link and membership discount code in the description. Now, hello Andrew. Hi Michael, thank you for having me on. great pleasure. I'm looking forward to finding out how we can make my bits tingle.
00:02:10
Speaker
Besides the tingle aspect of your work, you've also written a book called More Than Just Money, an introduction to the business enjoyment model. Can you tell us a little bit about the business enjoyment model?
Financial Success vs Personal Fulfillment
00:02:23
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And just to get a little bit of context ah in place, just the the background that I've come from was through the corporate arena and moving into the coaching space. I did a lot of working with people who had lost everything, effectively, that went through in form insolvency and ah were you know on their knees financially, having to claw their way back up and get themselves up and going again.
00:02:49
Speaker
And as as i as I work with more people in other areas and other industries and people are doing reasonably well and even people doing really, really well, I noticed this pattern running through everybody in that most people running their business, while they were kind of doing all right or of doing okay with it, sometimes they're really stressed and really miserable with it.
00:03:12
Speaker
And nobody was genuinely enjoying their business. And you know, for the people that lost everything, you can kind of understand that. It kind of makes sense.
00:03:23
Speaker
But when the people are being really successful or being stressed by it, it's like, hang on a sec. It doesn't make any sense. And I realize that success in business is not... automatically the same as enjoying what you do.
00:03:36
Speaker
But that is true. Whilst you might not actually be enjoying the work that you do, everybody thinks you're really successful because the money's coming in. So you must be enjoying yourself.
00:03:48
Speaker
You must be happy. But what they perceive is not always the same reality that you are living Absolutely. And and in in there is the trap, is that in business terms, and in life terms as well, but it very much manifests itself in business, ah the focus is always on making money.
00:04:07
Speaker
You are a successful business because you've got a six-figure, seven-figure, eight-figure business. We talk about millionaires, billionaires, earn more money, da-da-da. It's always about something in that kind of space. You might use different terms, but ultimately, its success is driven by how much money we make.
Balancing Work, Fitness, Soul, and Legacy
00:04:23
Speaker
But... That has nothing to do with how you feel as an individual. As far as I'm concerned, if you're running your own business, something that you have 100% control over, and you're not getting the most out of it for yourself in terms of making your soul sing, whichever one of the phrases you use, how you live, then what are you doing? If you're not enjoying it, what's the point?
00:04:46
Speaker
There isn't any point, you're quite right, Andrew, there isn't any point. And that's you know why when I saw the information online about you, I felt like this guy is singing from the same hymn sheet as me. Because when I started my business, Abbasida, I would go along to all these events where there'd be lots of other entrepreneurs.
00:05:04
Speaker
And you'd be listening to people talking about, oh, they wanted to have a holiday home in this country, and they wanted to drive and this type of Bentley rather than that type of Bentley. And it was all money, money, money, money. money And once you start getting to the point where you're thinking, I've either got to truly commit to running a business or I've got to treat it like another job and and think about where do I go from here? Or you stop being what you are to run the business, to actually be self-employed and become the the business manager rather than, in my case, the HR person.
00:05:39
Speaker
At that point, I sat down and thought, okay, what is it that I want from living this particular type of life? And I decided that I was going to live my heart lived my life, run my business. So it would enable me to have four hobbies in many ways. One of those hobbies would pay the bills.
00:05:57
Speaker
One of those hobbies would keep me fit. One would feed my soul, whether that was reading a book or going to the theater whatever. And the other one would be to create my legacy, which is the bit that puts the purpose into the business. It's like, I do this with a purpose, which is not necessarily being able to have somebody say, oh, he's so successful, he's making lots of money.
00:06:20
Speaker
That's not the purpose of a business, of any business, as far as I'm concerned. It's like, why does the business exist? What is it going to do? What's the impact that it's having on other people?
Purpose Beyond Profit
00:06:30
Speaker
And that sort of like jumps out of the pages of the book and and really sort of spoke to me.
00:06:37
Speaker
And just to sort of like say you though you have quite a big web presence and including your own podcast, The Tingle Zone, which is very good. A lot of the comments that have come from other people, or your YouTube channel are talking about exactly that that same sort of approach. It's like a business is, or business has to have a purpose.
00:06:58
Speaker
And the purpose is never simply about making money. is' There's more to it than just money. and not and Hence the title of the book, More Just Money. And I'm just going to just spin off something you that said there about business having to have a purpose. I'll just to soften that a little bit because I'm very anti the words have to, must do, should do.
00:07:19
Speaker
And these these are sad part the problems that we can face in a society. So... standard system is you must make certain amount of money or you must do certain things make things work or you have to have a purpose and actually it's more about having choice and exactly as as that process you went through it's like hang on a sec let's not follow a system and a process just because I'm told that's what I ought to do that everybody else is doing it let's let's find what works for me and gives me the satisfaction that I crave and let's work with that and if you get to a point where
00:07:55
Speaker
You're good and everything's fine and you're not hankering for a purpose, but you' you're feeling good. Bad is OK. There's nothing wrong with that. ah In my
Finding Personal Purpose and Fulfillment
00:08:06
Speaker
experience, most people who get to that point do look for something a little bit extra. So there's some there's some meaning in what they do rather than just making things better for themselves.
00:08:16
Speaker
I called it the yeah ah call it the seven out of 10 trap. So if I was asking you how much you enjoy your business, most people will go around the seven out of 10 mark if they're doing okay.
00:08:27
Speaker
um If they're lower than that, they'll be doing something about it, but rarely will they go higher. And that's because, you know, it's our natural inclination. you know When you step into purpose and start really focusing on the difference that you make and the people who you make that difference for, you can move into that 8, 9, 10 bracket.
00:08:45
Speaker
Whereas if you stay at the 7 out of 10 level, you're leaving 30% of enjoyment on the table at the end of the day. And you wouldn't do that on ah but in the in the profit sense if you were focused on that. Why would should you do that on earth enjoyment sense. So I encourage people to explore purpose and I feel there is so much more that you can get from it, but you have to be in the right, you just have to, but it's for when you want to it and on your terms, not because you have to do it.
00:09:13
Speaker
Yes. Correct way. Yes. And one of the things I think is also worth saying with my HR professionals hat on is that although your book is written for entrepreneurs, there's still an awful lot of benefit that somebody who isn't an entrepreneur, somebody who's an employee could also gain in terms of how they look at their career, how they look at the work that they do, where they want to do it, how they want to do it, how they want to be managed.
00:09:39
Speaker
It all comes together in the same sort of scenario that we can end up as an employee doing a job because it's a habit. Whereas perhaps what we need to be thinking is exactly the same sort of lines.
00:09:53
Speaker
If I leave this organization today, what would people say about the work that I did and six six months after I've left? What legacy am I leaving? What improvement am I leaving on this organization?
00:10:06
Speaker
How have have i impacted the organization? And if you don't feel you can do that, then you need to go through the same sort of process as as you've just described and in the book to actually get to the point where your work has meaning for you, your work has meaning for other people as well.
00:10:22
Speaker
there's a whole but absolutely shift in the way in which we view work indeed the the the underlying themes are across the board uh it's just it's through my my filter of business because that's that's been my experience and decades of running businesses and running my own and that sort of thing so that's the filter but yes it's absolutely stems into basic principles and and i had exactly the same experience when i was in my corporate career so So the in a very brief summary of the business enjoyment model, and and it's it's it's looking after yourself first.
00:10:57
Speaker
So making sure that you're you're in a good place financially, so you're not worried about where the money comes from. You're looking after yourself physically, and you talked onto to that as well, ah that you that you're feeling good financially.
00:11:09
Speaker
You know, emotionally, those sort of things. So you're feeling in a good place. You're surrounding yourself with the right kind of people ah so that you're you've got a good support group that you you are in business. terms I talk about having the right kind of clients, but it's the same in an employment industry. If you're working with colleagues and you get on well with them, then um then you're in a good place.
00:11:30
Speaker
And you also have a point where you are comfortable with what you're doing. So it's all very well other people telling you that you're doing good stuff. Are you saying it to yourself and are you able to accept those compliments? And ah yeah do you feel comfortable within yourself?
00:11:45
Speaker
So you do that in the first instance, and that takes a lot of work to doing that because it involves vulnerability and bit of tackling some demons and all these kind of things to break some of these patterns. But when you're in a good place, then you can look to step into purpose to find out well what's the difference I can make in the world. And and when I was in my corporate environment,
Purpose Without Children or Trauma
00:12:05
Speaker
those first first things I had all ticked off. I was i was earning plenty. and I really enjoyed the people I worked with.
00:12:11
Speaker
i I felt good about what I did, but I didn't have that sense of making a difference or really why I was there. and And it's interesting when I stepped out of ah ah of of the corporate career and set up my own business, it sort of like took away a lot of the base stuff. Suddenly I didn't have the income coming through and I was kind of by myself. And suddenly I was doing things I hadn't done before. And I had to kind of claw my way back up the ladder again before I could start stepping into purpose as to a certain extent.
00:12:42
Speaker
But It was already just because it was a different context. So it was always already something that I felt I was in the right space and in the right direction and never regretted. Yeah, I know exactly what you're meaning. And I'm sure lots of people who've been through that same process will completely understand exactly what you've said.
00:12:59
Speaker
For people who are so on the verge of having that moment of thinking, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? What are the sort of signs that you're approaching that stage in in your career?
00:13:14
Speaker
There's an element of lackluster, I suppose, to a certain extent. So whenever whenever if if we use procrastination as an example, there's lots of reasons why we might be not doing the work we're meant to be doing. And we might be find it difficult. we might There might be other challenges. we need to and understand There's never one thing in itself. We need to look beneath that and say, well, what is it that's stopping me from doing it?
00:13:37
Speaker
If we're kind of just bored, with what we're doing yeah If we're at the point where we feel like we're just repeating ourselves over and over again and there's no real shift or excitement, we don't see the difference that we make.
00:13:52
Speaker
and And for me, getting you know there's there's different levels of this. so In the corporate environment, normally a lot of the case, we all we can do is just sort of get by and and do things for ourselves or local, our immediate um colleagues. it's very Unless we happen to be in a business where we can see the difference, um it's hard to make that happen.
00:14:13
Speaker
and There are some environments where it's an automatic part of it, for sure. You know, if you're in a healthcare situation, you know exactly the difference that you make and it's the frustrations that you can't make as much difference that crops up.
00:14:25
Speaker
Depends on the context. So if if we're in ah if we work in an environment where it's very clear what the difference that we are making, then obviously that that's an easy step. If you're working in a bank, you're a few steps removed from the difference that you're making, so to speak. You can get connected to it, but it's not quite so obvious as if you're in the healthcare care sector.
00:14:46
Speaker
That's what saying. So it depends the sector you're in. First step, there's just any form of um making a difference, having meaning. you know And when when you when you can see that what you do benefits other people and the focus becomes about those other people as opposed to that focus that's been on yourself up until now, then you step into a more meaningful place.
00:15:11
Speaker
However, that's not necessarily the same as purpose in terms of definition I talk to. Uh, it's, it's finding the specific version and form of that meaningful space that really resonates with you in your soul that you really connect with.
00:15:28
Speaker
And in order to find that it might require going deep inside yourself to find out who you are, to work out what the thing out there is that you need to make the difference on. Cause normally it's connected um internal stuff.
00:15:39
Speaker
And it's, and it's that when you hit that and find that, um, but magic resonance, that's when we're into bits tingling mode. um So i can I can do stuff and I can donate to charity and feel good about donating to charity.
00:15:55
Speaker
But am I really making a difference in that space or doing the thing I want to do? So it's it's it's finding what we do and where we do. I can imagine someone who is a parent going to work and not being absolutely 100% ecstatic about the work that they're doing in the organization that they're doing it in.
00:16:13
Speaker
But when they go home, they realize that the income that they earn from that job enables them to give their children a a lifestyle that the child really enjoys.
00:16:24
Speaker
They can see that as a purpose and the impact that they are having on an individual. But if you haven't got children, then you can be, in you've got nieces, nephews, or whatever. But there's something different about someone who doesn't have that sort of family in to give the work purpose. I go to work in order to give this lifestyle to my family.
00:16:48
Speaker
If you are single with no children, you don't have that purpose as as well. And there there are some things in the in the book and the and your web presence which address the the position of people who don't have children as well which I think is very interesting if yeah so just clarify I don't have children i am married we married my wife for Over 20 years, and nearly 25. Neither of us wanted children. It's totally through choice.
00:17:17
Speaker
When I explore trying to work out what purpose is and what it means, because it's a genetic a nebulous term, it's trying to work out what it is and finding it. two Two things I noticed about out how how purpose often appears ah with other people.
Purpose and Legacy in Life
00:17:33
Speaker
One is exactly as you say, that the the children become that focal point and we we can tolerate a lot or make sacrifices because we can see the purpose that we're alluding to, which is the children.
00:17:45
Speaker
um The other situation is trauma. If you go to watch an inspirational speaker on stage, very often you'll hear someone that's been through a horrible experience has turned it round and is now helping other people in a similar situation. So for example, the ah equal rights campaigner that suffered prejudice as a child or the um the the drug addict that's got clean and is now helping other people to themselves get clean whatever it might be. So So sat in that those environments when I'm watching these people talk talk about the purpose for them, i was inspired in the sense of, yes, well done, isn't that amazing? But it never actually connected with me because I don't have children.
00:18:27
Speaker
ah There's no real trauma in my life, to be honest. ah and my My life's been no okay. I've had challenges, but nothing of that ilk. So yeah, so it's so it made me look above and beyond that. And I have a belief that purpose is something we can all find and it rises above ah family. We can incorporate family into it.
00:18:47
Speaker
And I think it rises above trauma, although trauma is often a way of accessing it or manifesting it in a certain way. But we can all find it even without having those things. The flip side is there's some people I'd worked with who ah um we were getting close to finding their purpose and then the children came along and they they they diverted them in a different direction into their children. so it's going to be interesting to see what happens when those children grow up and become independent and move away.
00:19:13
Speaker
Are they going to switch back to that original purpose? ah aura ah Because we do get that situation in the empty nest syndrome where people sort of go, hang on, what do
Enjoying the Journey to Purpose
00:19:22
Speaker
I do now? That makes me think, actually, that you can say, yeah, your life is about being a provider for your family, of being the the role model for your children, or these sorts of things.
00:19:34
Speaker
And that's great. That is really great. But what you just said there makes me think that actually, if you have if you've identified that purpose as to why it is that you do what you do, you can actually strengthen and the children's lives as well and make it easier for them, i suspect, to identify their purpose as well.
00:19:58
Speaker
You certainly create the environment for them to be able to step into that. Yes. I hung back to what you said at the start. It's something that you said that resonated with me in your introduction. And you said the whole point of this podcast is not to tell you what to think, but to make you think.
00:20:13
Speaker
And that's exactly what what you're referring to there. It's not about telling the children what to think, but creating the space to allow them to think and explore. yes and and And yeah, that that really... stood out when in your introduction there. Yes, yeah I can see what you mean. It's like it's not telling somebody what to do, but by being an example of someone who is living a particular style of life, living in a specific or particular way, you create the role model which says to someone else, it is all right for you to find your purpose, find your own way, dev develop the lifestyle that is right for you and the work that enables you to have that lifestyle and be your own person.
00:21:01
Speaker
and And I also encourage people to you know if they've if they've not if they're interested in finding their purpose and they don't have their purpose, first of all, not put themselves under pressure.
00:21:12
Speaker
ah Don't say, oh my God, i haven't got it yet. i must find my purpose. No, you don't have to. you must. You don't have to. and yeah But to actually use the the journey of looking for purpose to be the initial purpose and and to enjoy the journey of that.
00:21:29
Speaker
So rather than being on this, I'm missing something, I'm going to get all stressed in trying to find it, actually go, oh, this is an opportunity to explore, to try different things, to find out more about me, to uncover new stuff.
Nine-Step Program for Purpose-Centered Business
00:21:42
Speaker
That's where the fun and the pleasure comes in hunting for purpose. And then when you do get exit to purpose, it then lifts you up another notch again. And that's... I'm thinking that there's lots of lots of talk in the media about all sorts of different ways in which people um are changing the way in which they like they live. We're no longer just simply salarymen, we're no longer just living week by week, wage packet to wage packet.
00:22:09
Speaker
We're looking for something that is at the higher levels of of why it is that we do what we do. A lot of that is quite theoretical and there's not an awful lot of depth to it.
00:22:23
Speaker
But within what you're talking about, there is a like nine-step plan that helps people structure. If they want to go on this particular journey, there is a nine-point plan which helps them to do that. And that's explained in the book and across your various different websites as well.
00:22:41
Speaker
Well, you're talking about the concept of legacy there. there's The nine-step legacy program, that's in the Unleash Your Legacy book. That's just that's just to clarify for the listeners. There's quite a few books flying around, but there's there's more than Just Money, which talks about the business enjoyment model and the general concept of bits tingling and all the rest of it.
00:22:58
Speaker
And there's another book, which is is focused on people who don't have children as their main focus, child-free entrepreneurs, and Unleash Your Legacy, was that one's called. and And in a nutshell, it's about the first couple of points we've kind of covered. It's, you know, get yourself in a good place first and then look for purpose. um When I talk about legacy and again, coming from my framework, it's about how do we how do we create a sustainable business that we can step away from in the future and it will continue developing and moving forward that purpose that I want to create or develop ah even after Beyond I've gone.
00:23:36
Speaker
That is what purpose and legacy mean, I suppose, something which carries on after you are no longer there. That's the legacy element, yes. So a legacy is about creating a purpose-centred business.
00:23:50
Speaker
Yes. Which isn't for everybody. and But it's like, if I've got my purpose and know what I'm doing and I want that to happen, what if my purpose is big enough, what happens when I'm not here anymore?
00:24:04
Speaker
And it's looking beyond that. How can we keep the ball rolling after
Challenging Beliefs to Find Identity
00:24:08
Speaker
we've gone? That's ultimately nutshell. And the business is a fantastic vehicle for doing. Yes. When I looked at your various websites, there are, um, the events that you hold in there, there are videos of the people who've experienced the event and listening to you there.
00:24:24
Speaker
i am remembering the, what people said as they came out of the events and the, um, I think one of the things is that you, the question that you ask, the question that you just ask, I think is really interesting, but it's not a question that you or I, if somebody is listening to that question, it's not something that we need to provide anyone with an answer to.
00:24:52
Speaker
It is a question that people can choose if they wish to ask themselves and then investigate the options which enable them to create their own answer to that question.
00:25:07
Speaker
And that, I think, has got me thinking. It's certainly got me thinking. Very much so. Yeah, and like you said, thank you very much. That's what the independent minds and all the podcasts that Abbasidia creates is we're trying not to tell people what to think, but giving them information which enables them to think.
00:25:29
Speaker
and cause Because a lot of lot of our conversations, our discussions, our habits, our patterns, they've all been instilled in us from a young age, and they're not necessarily our own. Yes.
00:25:42
Speaker
And it requires us to stop and break some habits and break some beliefs and break some patterns, which can be uncomfortable because we've held them all our lives and there's identity attached to them. um but in order to uncover who we really are and what we actually think for ourselves.
00:25:58
Speaker
And then we're into a different space. We have stop believing what other people tell us that we are and start identifying what we really are.
Conclusion and Further Resources
00:26:07
Speaker
And I've got so many experiences from my career of working with people who were going through the challenges of wanting to do something, but actually the biggest obstacle that they faced was that they themselves believed that other people, what ah they believed what other people were saying about people like you don't do that.
00:26:31
Speaker
Well, tell me what a person like me is if I'm not allowed to do what I believe a person like me is supposed to be doing. it's we put a people We get put into boxes by other people and we put ourselves into even tighter, more restricting boxes.
00:26:51
Speaker
I think that... and I had not thought about that until I was listening to you, Andrew. So, you know, thank you very much. I think many times I meet people and it is worth pointing out that you are just really down the road, but we'd never met until we started talking about this. But, you know, I'm from Leeds, you're from Wakefield.
00:27:11
Speaker
But the you've really got me thinking. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time today. Thank you. It's pleasure. Thank you. Definitely. Thank you very much, Andrew, for sharing your knowledge and experience, making me think and helping me to create such an interesting episode of The Independent Minds.
00:27:30
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysseedah, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Andrew Miller, the man who makes your bits tingle. You can find out more about both of us at abeceda.co.uk. And I have mentioned several times Andrew's own web presence. I will put links to the different websites that he has appeared on in those as well.
00:27:56
Speaker
I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for thinking it would be a good idea to introduce me to Andrew. If you are a podcaster looking for guests with bits tingling credentials, or if like Andrew, you have something very interesting to say, Matchmaker.fm is where bits tingling matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:28:17
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an author code in the description. I somehow think that description is well worth reading. If you have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:33
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, as we've been saying throughout this podcast, really, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
00:28:50
Speaker
big thank you to Andrew and a bigger thank you to you for listening. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you and goodbye.