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Fox or Hedgehog – a discussion with Andres Klaric of Fuse Financial
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In his book Good to Great, Jim Collins uses foxes and hedgehogs to describe two different types of behaviours that can be attributed to entrepreneurs, investors or employees.
In this episode of the Abecederpodcast The Independent Minds, Andres Klaric, the CEO and co-founder of Fuse Financial explains how when he was a Wall Street banker he was comfortable spending most of his time being one of these two animals. Andres then explained how his animal role changed when he set up Fuse Financial, and how it continued to change as the business evolved.
Host Michael Millward challenges Andres to be specific about when his behaviours changed and what each change felt like.
This is an interesting discussion in which guest reflects on their career and the behaviours that have generated their success.
Find out more about both Michael Millward, and Andres Klaric at Abeceder.co.uk
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Matchmaker.fm If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if like Andres, you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
Travel
Andres is based in New York City. The Independent Minds is produced close to old York I Yorkshire UK. Whether you are travelling to old York or New York, remember members of the Ultimate Travel Club, can travel at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, package holidays and all sorts of other travel purchases. You can become a member at a discounted price by using my offer code ABEC79 when you join-up.
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Being a Guest
If you would like to be a guest on The Independent Minds, please contact using the link at Abeceder.co.uk.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Independent Minds' and Zencastr
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencastr Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:21
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida. As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencastr.
00:00:33
Speaker
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then dispute it to all of the major platforms. Zencastr really does make making content so easy.
00:00:47
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, APOSIDA. All the details are in the description.
00:01:00
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one.
Purpose of the Podcast Series
00:01:06
Speaker
One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:11
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Guest Introduction: Andres Klarik
00:01:19
Speaker
Today, my guest independent mind, who met at matchmaker.fm is Andres Klarik from fusefinance.com in New York, USA.
00:01:31
Speaker
Hello, Andres. Hey, Michael. How are you? I am extremely well. Thank you very much. And I hope very much that you can say the same. i'm I'm doing better than I deserve. What is life like in New York today? Cause old York where I am, it's pretty cool.
00:01:45
Speaker
It's getting colder here though. When I visited New York and when I visit New York in the future, I will always plan my travel with the ultimate travel club because that is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, holidays, and all sorts of other travel related purchases.
00:02:00
Speaker
Um, there's a link and offer code in the description. Now that I've paid the electricity bill, It's time to find out more about you, Andres.
Andres Klarik's Career Journey
00:02:10
Speaker
So tell us, how did you become the founder and the CEO of Fuse Finance and what does it do?
00:02:18
Speaker
The journey really starts almost 10 years ago at Harvard for my MBA. Then my co-founder there, but at that point we didn't know necessarily we're going start of business together. right We stayed in touch.
00:02:29
Speaker
I went into continuing my career on Wall Street as an investor. When the pandemic hit, I think a lot of us kind of fast started questioning ourselves what is kind of the next step in our career as we were sitting in our couches.
00:02:43
Speaker
Most of us, are um but I would assume, in the ah waiting for the pandemic to pass for at least those first couple of days or if you were not a first responder. Started not and with the idea of starting a business, kind of socialized with a couple of friends.
00:02:58
Speaker
And of course, with my co-founder at that time, after balancing ideas, it kind of came with this idea of starting a loan broker ah for consumer loans.
00:03:08
Speaker
and That's what we initially launched. That was the first kind of iteration of Fuse four years ago.
Fuse Finance's Business Model Evolution
00:03:15
Speaker
And that within months of launching, the banks, the credit unions, the finance companies to which we were selling these loans or packaging these loans for approached us. And they were far more interested in the process and the technology that we were following ah to get get this loan rather than just getting the loans.
00:03:34
Speaker
The loans were just a product that would the packaging and like the technology was what really interested them. So what we realized is that we had to pivot, right? Like that the market was pulling us in a different direction.
00:03:48
Speaker
So we did, right? So we raised millions of dollars after that fact. ah We're working now with banks, credit unions, finance companies, investment in funds here in the United States.
00:04:00
Speaker
And what Fuse does, right, in a nutshell, we're a loan origination system. We're kind of, we're a system of record for the process of underwriting out and funding ah loans, either for consumers or commercial ah folks, for the most part here in the U.S. today.
00:04:16
Speaker
Is it like in the old days you used to go and see your bank manager and ask for a loan and the bank manager would go through a series of questions and use his intuition or their experience or whether she liked you or not and to make the decision about whether or not they would give you the loan?
00:04:38
Speaker
Exactly. And what you've Yeah, what you've done is then digitized and turned that process into a service called Fuse Finance.
00:04:49
Speaker
Exactly. we've we empower humans to make tribal knowledge live in the world of zeros and ones while still ah was still allowing them to make sure that everything is understandable. It doesn't feel like they are getting into the matrix, right?
00:05:05
Speaker
So it's technology that makes their lives easier, but it's also technology that they can understand and leverage themselves without having to ah be computer scientists. Yes, it's the output that is important. as suppose Well, the the input and the output from the consumer or the business's perspective so is what's important.
00:05:24
Speaker
From the bank's perspective, it's about what it is that... the The decision-making process can be more automated, I suppose, from what you do, and that makes the bank more efficient and more effective.
00:05:37
Speaker
And hopefully people end up with the right decisions being made about the money that they can borrow. Exactly. ah you You could have not said it better. Well, I, you know, pulling all these different things together and thinking like, yeah, this makes an awful lot of sense.
00:05:53
Speaker
That's what you've, you've sort of done with your system is enabled the, the loan machine to work, I think more efficiently, more effectively because of what you've built into the back office, so
The Hedgehog and Fox Business Metaphor
00:06:07
Speaker
to speak.
00:06:07
Speaker
Exactly. But you see, there's something about when when we were talking about how the business operates, the way in which you set it up. And you mentioned like the Jim Collins book, Good to Great, and the story that he tells in that book about how you have hedgehogs and you have foxes.
00:06:28
Speaker
and how you wanted to like to build a business that understood all of that type. Tell us a little bit about the the Jim Collins story about the hedgehog and the fox that is in Good to Great.
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, no, for me, it really comes down to like, depending on the roles and careers you pursue, you're going to kind of fall within those two categories. And the way that the Of course, I'm i'm i'm sure I'm to butcher out a little bit of the story.
00:07:01
Speaker
But the hedgehogs, in general, are much more specialized, super deep into one particular area of expertise. right like Think about oh the most extreme example would probably be a neurosurgeon that's also PhD.
00:07:20
Speaker
ah like They just know ton about that. And they probably do not know that much of about any other thing like soccer or Formula One and maybe who's about to win the World Series.
00:07:34
Speaker
and It's just very focused into one area. Whereas the Fox is probably more akin to a really a salesperson or or a they the comparable comparability would be like a Renaissance man or woman, right?
00:07:50
Speaker
Someone that knows a lot. A lot of things, but but at a depth that's not comparable to to the hedgehog. And I think that the jobs that I had prior to starting Infuse, especially as an investor, you tend to be more of a fox, right? Like you just looked at ah and a variety of different investment opportunities and and then you decide to invest. and You kind of cross-pollinate those ideas.
00:08:18
Speaker
But the fox allows you to kind of draw from power a metaphor quite a lot. Whereas the hedgehog allows you to get a lot of expertise, but obviously you can be blindsided because you don't have other points of reference because that's usually all you know well.
00:08:39
Speaker
well And when you start a business, you kind of become a hedgehog. like went So I went from a very ah proud fox ah to becoming a hedgehog, right? ah Reluctant hedgehog, so to speak. but But it's it's part of that journey and something that you come to appreciate, right? ah the The level of expertise you need to develop.
00:09:07
Speaker
Yes. Jim Collins is using the the analogy or metaphor and when he's talking about leadership styles and how the fox pursues all sorts of various different methods and knows all sorts of different things, but not in any great detail. But they they will never be lost for something to say because they know something about everything.
00:09:27
Speaker
Exactly. and the But the hedgehog is the real specialist. So whether you are a leader, manager, or just an employee within an organization, if you're a hedgehog, you are the specialist who knows something, a huge amount about one particular area.
00:09:46
Speaker
The organization needs both types of people in order to be able to operate effectively, but There are some people who can make the change between being a fox to a hedgehog and also people can make the change from being a hedgehog to a fox.
00:10:04
Speaker
It's knowing, I suppose, when the right time is to make that change and what that change looks like. And even, like you say, you were a very proud fox when you were an investment banker on Wall Street, recognising that you are the fox when you are being the fox and you are the high hedgehog when you are being the hedgehog.
00:10:24
Speaker
Yeah, a hundred percent. And and I think that some, some personalities might gravitate towards one or the other. Right. But ah as you mentioned, uh, there's no, but there's not, there's no such thing as a, you can only be one or the other. You probably will have, a um, uh, an inclination from one versus the other.
00:10:44
Speaker
And some types of jobs will kind of, uh, will lead you to be one versus the other, but, ill the The two of them have its own pros and cons and ah organizations that thrive probably have a good balance of the fair share of foxes and hedgehogs.
00:11:05
Speaker
No doubt about it. Yeah, I suppose in some ways people might say, youth when you were an investment banker, you saw yourself as a fox being looking at lots and lots of different pieces of information.
00:11:16
Speaker
But when you set up FuseFinance.com, you had to become much more of the hedgehog. And there's part of me that thinks, well, surely when you're running a business, you've got to become a a master of every trade rather than just of one.
00:11:34
Speaker
why why do you do it that way around i think that when you become a business owner when you're running your own business you i yes you kind of there's nothing beneath you right like there by far when you start a business you're going to everything the stuff that used to be done by someone else when you were in different role is no longer done by someone else you kind of pick up that it's that is more like the ability to manage time but in general you are you kind of become a hedgehog because you know a lot about whatever widgets or piece of software or whatever is in your area of expertise, right?
00:12:10
Speaker
To put an example, right? Like I think now one could perceive Elon Musk as a fox, but ah he started more of just a payments or ads, whatever the first set of companies that he had, he he was not as diversified, right?
00:12:26
Speaker
You can say the same thing. Any company, when you you need to start super focused, right? Like you you think about Apple, they were just thinking about the personal computer. You were thinking about Microsoft, they were just thinking about the one thing. When think about Ford, he was trying to build just like a car for the people.
00:12:43
Speaker
That cash cow is created, then you can fund and become a fox again. the The hedgehog, that obsession with one task or one opportunity, it's it's generally like what do you need in the very beginning.
00:13:00
Speaker
That obsession, I think, is more akin to the hedgehog than to the fox. The fox kind of allows you to discover perhaps the the opportunity, the kind of the curiosity of the fox.
00:13:11
Speaker
But one is you're once you kind of need to so narrow down the scope, ah you need to evolve into the other mammal. Yeah, I see what you mean. Was there a point that you can say this is when you recognize that you needed to change from the fox to the hedgehog?
00:13:28
Speaker
I think you recognize once the business gains traction and you start getting customers and like you start realizing, hey, this is really like you're feeling viscerally, oh that's kind of when start you're completely involved, right? It's not that you completely turn off the Fox. The Fox needs to be there just alert to always check it on new opportunities, but you're 90 plus percent of the time become a
Applying the Hedgehog and Fox Traits in Business
00:13:58
Speaker
hedgehog afterwards. You just need to become obsessed with making the product better, obsessed of finding new partners to, to, to bring into a platform.
00:14:08
Speaker
it It's really like you're, you're becoming a specialist in your trade. And um it's really a function of hours and hours. And if there's anything I learned from those banking days, it's like the idea of working smart, it being thoughtful is important, but you still need to put the hours, right? the you'retony You're not going to get away with the,
00:14:34
Speaker
the the approach of just working a few hours day and calling it a day. Unfortunately, it it does require the input of time. and Not only the the smart hours, but also the pure muscle ones too.
00:14:47
Speaker
Yeah. So a hedgehog doesn't watch the clock. No, you just want to make the best product possible, and but also enjoy the journey, right? like it's not just I don't think the hedgehog is just obsessed with just getting it from A to B. the both but Both can actually enjoy that process of of achieving, not only achieving itself, but but the process as a whole.
00:15:13
Speaker
What you're saying is that in order to identify the right business to establish or to invest in or to to actually go and work for, you've got to be something of the fox.
00:15:27
Speaker
Once you've identified the business you're going to work in or the business you're going to establish or the business you're going to invest in, you then have to be the hedgehog.
00:15:38
Speaker
And forget about all the other things that you've investigated. They've gone through the selection process and have dropped out. The one that you've decided you're going to commit to, you've got to commit to like the hedgehog.
00:15:50
Speaker
And actually, that's how you're going to make it work. And I think there's a great value in being able to almost um visualize something like a hedgehog or visualize a fox that helps you understand the behaviors and the thought processes that you have to go through.
00:16:08
Speaker
in order to achieve to achieve your objective. Yes, I agree. Having that ability to switch between the others, I think the more you can kind of nurture that, the better off you're going to be, right? Like, if you notice that you're overly indexing to be a fox, maybe you should...
00:16:27
Speaker
ah i nurture that that kind of hedgehog in you. right like and it As I said in the beginning, right I became a Red Lachlan hedgehog. It's one of those things that like it comes with building a business and And you you need to embrace it and and and rejoice in it, right? Of course, and there will be a time for everything, right? I'm sure as as kind of the business grows and everything, i will have my own chance of nurturing my my own, my but that box that I have left behind for a little bit.
00:17:06
Speaker
but But so far, ah feel very proud of what the, where the hedgehog has right gone from like pretty much being non-existent when I started the business.
00:17:19
Speaker
Yeah, to now being a key part of the business's success. But I want to pick up on that, what you said about being a reluctant hedgehog. I suppose what that almost means is like you recognize that you've got to go through a change process and well, how does it feel to go through that process of like, I'm a very happy fox.
00:17:40
Speaker
i' This is what I do. I've demonstrated that I can be very successful as a very happy fox. But in order to fulfill this objective, fu fulfill this passion to set up this business, I've got to change to be a hedgehog.
00:17:54
Speaker
And I know I've got to do it. But what does it feel like to go through that change process? I mean, it's existential, right? So you kind of think of the trajectory of the business and you say, that no one's going to come help you, right? So realize that's kind of what ownership mindset is.
00:18:16
Speaker
the type A mentality comes into play, right? Not not to mix other terms and other, but users just need to accept the facts and take responsibility, right? Obviously for some parts of it, you need to hire other hedgehogs, right? Like I am not a technical guy, right? So we need to bring in engineers to build certain things in terms of designing processes.
00:18:37
Speaker
And things like that, just being a Fox was not going to take me very far. Right. So, you, you, you just speak with the best hedgehogs out there, figure out how they've done it, uh, be a student of their craft and realize that there's a craft, but there's also what they, but their masters more than anything is masters of creating repeatable processes.
00:19:03
Speaker
That's something that I've gone to appreciate, right? Like the best hedgehogs out there. kind of dominate the art of process creation and repeatability.
00:19:14
Speaker
that That's something I've planned to nurture. The hedgehog, then in your role as a co-chief executive of viewsfinance.com is not necessarily to be the engineer because you're not trained to be an engineer.
00:19:29
Speaker
You don't have that knowledge. That's not where you've got to focus your your talents. But What you're saying is, is like, it doesn't really matter how you feel about it. If you want to drive the business forward, you've got to do the role and you got to draw on that ability to adapt to it.
00:19:48
Speaker
So it's not really, I shouldn't really ask the question, how did it feel to go through that process? What you're saying is that if you want to achieve this goal, you've just got to accept that that is a part of that process and then focus for the time that it is necessary to do it, to actually use the the hedgehog part of your brain to create the infrastructure of the organization so that it can function.
00:20:20
Speaker
Exactly. Right. And then once you then start growing as a business and growing as an employer of employees or contractors or whatever, you start to delegate work to other people.
00:20:35
Speaker
And that then means that more of your role or the Fox aspect of your role as a CEO can then start to reemerge again. Exactly.
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah. You started Fuse Finance four years ago, so that was in 2020? Yes. Can you look back and sort of say, at this point in our evolution, i had to be more fox, and it at this point in our evolution, I had to be more hedgehog?
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, I would say, as I was evaluating what to do before starting Fuse, that that kind of process of seeing the universe of ideas, you're naturally a fox,
00:21:19
Speaker
But then oh when we started building the original business, kind of we we we were both hedgehogs. But you'd never as I mentioned, you never turn off the fox. right So when the banks started approaching us and they were like, guys, you have ah you have amazing technology. Why don't you sell the technologies that are just the loans?
00:21:40
Speaker
That is kind of when the Fox needs to be agile and tell the hedgehog, wait two seconds. Like the world is screaming at you that one of the things that you've built is far more useful than the other ones. So you need to make a choice. So the Fox kind of helps you evaluate that opportunity quickly. And then you just focus again at the hedgehog. So the,
00:22:05
Speaker
and and In the last four years, there's probably been ah six to 12 months of foxiness.
00:22:14
Speaker
And there were the other rest has been like a hedgehog, right? It just hedgehogs. the The most you turn on your fox is a couple of times per quarter, particularly during in board meetings when like you need to think about the next five, 10 years.
00:22:31
Speaker
And that's very important. Fox is much better. at looking into that and of the future. But the hedgehog allows you to explain viability of their future too.
00:22:43
Speaker
and There's like timelines. and things like that Yeah, I get what you mean, because you you mentioned like there are times when the you don't you don't want to be the hedgehog because an opportunity comes along and the fox needs to explore and investigate that opportunity.
00:23:01
Speaker
And the danger is, I suppose, that you get so far into being a hedgehog that you... do not lose the skill to be a fox but you'd fail to recognize the opportunity that being a fox would create if you allowed yourself to be the fox again unfortunately for you you allowed yourself to be the fox when the banks started saying that your business needs to needs to be slightly different you we were able to switch on the fox and investigate it and come to a ah conclusion about how you would move the business further forward
00:23:33
Speaker
And then this idea as well about when you're in different situations, the different aspects of your role require you to to swap and change between being the fox and being the hedgehog as well.
00:23:49
Speaker
Exactly. What prepared you for that? is it Do you feel you've ever had any sort of training or development or you've learned how to do it? Or have you had to do it in the flow of setting up Fuse Finance?
00:24:01
Speaker
the most relatable Hedgehog experience that, not most, but a good chunk of us have the colleges perhaps the most, and which like for three, for every every semester, you take a couple classes in which you're kind of a Hedgehog on that topic, right? So you consume and consume, and at the end you take a test and that's it, right?
00:24:25
Speaker
But that kind of narrow focus into one topic for a semester. And I think the Fox is more like Hedgehog Hey, i'm the diversification of that portfolio into multiple classes, right?
00:24:37
Speaker
i And I think as as you go into wow more grad school and the PhDs, they end up, instead of taking one class, they just start, just make what would have been a semester just transition to five years. But that's probably the best training.
00:24:54
Speaker
Then in the investing world, You get opportunities all the time on your desk, right? So you do kind of like a quick screen. You check if it if it makes sense for you.
00:25:06
Speaker
and then you decide if you ah spend more time on it. But the idea is to quickly kind of knock out those rules. but So that you you get to see a lot opportunities. And you by virtue of looking at it opportunities, you you kind of start picking up the the craft of deciding what what what what it works and what doesn't.
00:25:25
Speaker
And what do you need to recognize is that the process of actually understanding those opportunities and kind of the most investment firms will have a criteria that they use.
00:25:38
Speaker
That criteria was probably at some point in time established by a hedgehog. yeah some that um I mean, although you you you're probably acting as a fox,
00:25:50
Speaker
process the the way in which you onboard that opportunity and and like which your army of analysts are checking was most likely put by someone that was obsessed around creating a criteria that streamlined that process.
00:26:04
Speaker
And the Fox is kind of benefit a lot from the sweat and tears of some hedgehogs. Right. Yes, I'm thinking about all the different times in my career where I sort of thought it's very often easier to be the fox because you can be involved in all sorts of different things and the expectations of other people and what they demand of you when you are being a fox can be very easily met.
Reflections on Adaptability in Business
00:26:33
Speaker
But when you are the hedgehog and you are the person who is, like you say, devising the process, organising the policy, planning things out, the depth of the questions that you will be asked and the level of responsibility that you as a result have is a lot broader and deeper.
00:26:54
Speaker
It's a lot more intense to be a hedgehog than it is to be a fox. Exactly. It is really interesting. And, you know, we both set up businesses. We both had similar types of experiences, I suppose.
00:27:08
Speaker
And yeah, listening to you talk about the, the different roles of the, the Fox and the hedgehog. Um, and even when I think back to my time as a, as a corporate manager and director and at different stages in my career,
00:27:24
Speaker
I'm sort of like holding my hand into across my face a little bit at the moment, recalling those times where I should have been a hedgehog, but I was too much of a fox. And I should have been a fox, but I was too much of a hedgehog.
00:27:38
Speaker
And it is almost like listening to you talk about those times brings home to me more about how I need to adapt to what the organization needs and focus sometimes because the hedgehog focuses.
00:27:53
Speaker
I think that is, you know, it's been quite a learning experience, Andre. Quite a learning experience. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Michael. It's been a great being here. And I'm i'm sure the the two mammals we've spoken about will be very proud of they are.
00:28:12
Speaker
I hope so. I hope so. But for today, thank you very much. I found it really very interesting. And I have to admit, I've learned a lot as well. Thank you. Thank Michael. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Andres Klarik from fusefinance.com.
00:28:35
Speaker
You can find out more information about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Andres.
00:28:49
Speaker
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if you like Andres, you have something very interesting to say. Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:29:01
Speaker
There's a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. If you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data. So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering.
00:29:17
Speaker
There's a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3.0 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:29:28
Speaker
The description certainly sounds like it's going to be well worth reading. I'm sure that you've liked this episode of The Independent Minds, so why not give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:29:43
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abusida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
00:29:55
Speaker
Today, all that remains for me to say is until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.