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Wicked For Good- There's a Lot, But Also a Lot Less
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We have been changed For Good by witnessing the gorgeous costumes in Wicked For Good!!
We recorded this on opening weekend and bring you our fresh reactions to the movie. It’s been amazing to see all of the posts and pictures from production folks showing their work in making these costumes. It’s only cemented our appreciation for the artistry on display. Join us as we return to Oz for the completion of this saga.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19847976/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_wicked%2520for%2520good
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hot Set' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello friends and welcome back. We are here. We have made
Covering 'Wicked for Good'
00:00:28
Speaker
it. We are doing a movie that as we are recording it is ah just hit in the theaters. So we are here today to talk about Wicked for Good. That is the second part of the Wicked. i don't know if you can call it a series at this point, but um If you haven't listened to our episode on the first Wicked movie, you can check that out. We covered it in season three, which we both ah playfully called the color explosion. But covering Wicked fits perfectly into our fantasy theme for this season. And would you look at that? It's out now. So...
00:01:08
Speaker
ah So we decided to cover
Spoiler Alert and Synopsis
00:01:11
Speaker
Wicked. um I'm going to read the very short ah plot synopsis from IMDb. um But I think we should warn everybody up top that we are just absolutely gonna spoil the hell out of this movie. Spoilers all over the place. And there could be some sort of general spoilers for the book from ah me as well, because I have some things to say about this story. um But the ah very simple synopsis from IMDb is
00:01:44
Speaker
Elphaba, the future Wicked Witch of the West, and her relationship with Glinda, the Good Witch of the North, the second of a two-part feature film adaptation of the Broadway musical. Done!
00:01:55
Speaker
You got it all! it' such crazy That's like nothing. Okay. Oh, here's the second one. Okay. Okay. After challenging the wizard's total totalitarian regime in Oz, Elphaba must grapple with her identity as the Wicked Witch of the West. Meanwhile, the wizard has given Glinda the title Glinda the Good and a public status as the nation's defender against Elphaba. The two witches must make decisions that seal their fates in the second musical installment. That's a little better.
00:02:26
Speaker
Yes, that actually tells some of the story. Yes.
Musical Acts Perceptions
00:02:30
Speaker
um It's been really funny to me like watching the sort of like reactions like and think pieces roll in about this movie because so many of them refer to this as a sequel. And every single comment is just like musical theater nerds like screaming, this is not sequel. It is the other half of the story.
00:02:51
Speaker
like If you've ever seen the show on stage, you get to see both halves in one sitting. This is not... ah Yeah, this is Act 2. This is Act 2. And I think it's also people ah having the realization that many like theater goers are used to, which is that oftentimes with musicals, Act 1 is better than Act 2. In terms of like it's flashier, it has the bigger songs, it's like...
00:03:16
Speaker
got all this stuff and then act two is where you have to kind of like resolve the story that you set up and sometimes people find it you know less entertaining or less like I don't know dazzling so I don't know frequently act two is heavier because of those resolutions and like the catharsis or whatever it's like that's the part that's gonna make you cry absolutely like people don't necessarily always want to look forward to that part Right.
Themes of 'Wicked'
00:03:42
Speaker
Or it's sort of like, I mean, it's I think it's a bit of a a problem that is like endemic to this story where it's sort of like, oh, but like like the university and like they sang popular and, you know, dancing through life and wasn't that fun? And it's like, well, yes, that was fun. But that's not what this story is about ultimately. So you have to grapple with act two because that's where the story is. You gotta hang on.
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah. um But I'm really curious to to hear from you, Ariel, because I know like you know you you're not a fan of the musical, ah but I know that you enjoyed the first movie. So i'm I'm curious to hear what you thought about the second movie, because I know, like you were like we said, some people have been a little bit like, what? Yeah. So I knew that, of course, the play structure that movie one was act one. So I had like a, okay, well, we're gonna follow.
00:04:44
Speaker
I feel like i I knew without ever having read the book either. Gregory McGuire is the the author of the book, right? so he had Did he also write Confession of an Ugly Sepsister? I think so. I meant to look it up because i read i think I've read his other books and I couldn't remember if that one was one of them or not. I think it is. So I have not... I don't think finished any of his books. I might've started Confessions of an Ugly Sepsister. If that was one of her um of them. Yes, it was because there is a TV movie based on that book from 2002. Hello. So I knew that his style of telling the ad, well, yeah, making an adaptation of something that we're already familiar with, i e Cinderella whatever. or The Wizard of Oz, was to tell backstory that's happening parallel to the story that we know. Yeah.
00:05:37
Speaker
But it's being perceived differently from the main characters that we are familiar with. So I was like, ooh, I love that. i like that convention. I'm always on board with that. so i was like, let's strap in for this ride.
Experiences with 'Wicked' Movies
00:05:50
Speaker
I also went to go see it with my friend Fiona, who's a massive fan. and um we saw a double feature. So we went in at 11 and left at five because there's like a 15 minute intermission. And um it was a long day in the office. And um so I got refreshed on Wicked 1, or just Wicked, and um then went right into the sequel.
00:06:14
Speaker
i enjoyed it. I had a great ride. I just enjoyed it. And I wanted to see how they were going to, you know, resolve a lot of stuff. And it met my my very entry level expectations. There were people who were sitting next to us who were not.
00:06:33
Speaker
Okay. yeah With the casting of Jeff Goldblum as the wizard. or the fact that they they... Hold on, because I will love to get your opinion on this.
00:06:44
Speaker
They were also very upset. like there was you know Because the whole point is that what we find out in Wicked is that the wizard... is like in order to keep peace, you have to create an enemy. And that's something that he learned from, you know, good old Omaha and US of A. The carny circuit.
00:07:02
Speaker
So he's like demonizing the animals who speak and uniting all of Oz in hating this group of people. And of course, Elphaba like aligns herself with the animals because she is also other and has always been othered.
00:07:19
Speaker
for things that she cannot control. And, um and so in this one, she's like constantly fighting back against it. And like, every time she fights back for the good of animals and like, she's not killing anybody. She's not, no you know, like she's flying in the sky and saying like the, our wizard lies and then and demand some horrible light property damage. Yeah. Like as you should when leading a rebellion And ah like the Madame Morrible like changes her writing in the sky to say like Oz will die. Oz dies. Yeah, Oz dies. You know, like all this kind of stuff where they're just like forcing her to be this character in the propaganda that they're selling to Ozians. And um this person sitting next to me.
00:08:06
Speaker
like It just doesn't make any sense. I don't understand why they're like villainizing Elphaba. Like she's only doing good things. And I was like in my head, ma'am, ma'am,
Audience Reactions and Real-world Reflections
00:08:14
Speaker
I do not think that you understand story.
00:08:17
Speaker
don't think you understand the world that we live in here. Yes. I don't think that you understand reality, but I also don't think that you understand story, that you have to tell a story in order to show development. You know what I mean? Like, was like, however you are perceiving this and experiencing it is very fascinating. Like, I have a lot of really heartbreaking things to tell that woman about what happens in like the current and also history of Earth. Like, yeah, I was like, is this your first day here? It was just like, oh, my God. I feel like it was kind of the same thing with the first movie where people were like, oh my God, Glinda is not the good person in the movie. And you're like, yeah, what are you?
00:09:01
Speaker
I'm sorry, this is news? Like, what are we talking about? It's also just like how people, and this is also a difference that we were kind of talking about before recording. we're so old.
Post-COVID Movie Theatre Experience
00:09:13
Speaker
Like we remember pre-COVID and we remember before all the movie theaters chucked out all the seating that used to be. And now it's all like luxury seating and tickets are super expensive. And yeah people like freak out about being in public, myself included, but just differently. We're like, people can't handle being in a theater and respecting the fact that like everybody's here. And everyone paid to be here. yeah And it's like, there's there's like acceptable, you know, pushing of that boundary of like, woohoo,
00:09:40
Speaker
And like, you know, like engaging with the film, but like being purposefully distracting or just like not giving a shit and being rude. Taking a phone call is something that somebody did out there during one of these showings. I wasn't there. You would have heard about it in the news, I think. um Like i but like people just like can't receive information.
00:10:05
Speaker
the same way that we are you used to people receiving information. and i I've noticed this about other properties where like people are upset about characters that exist in the eighty s reacting to information that they're being given that is not socially accepted the way that it is today. And they're like, fuck that character. And it's like, this takes place in 1985. What are you talking about? You weren't even a glint in your parents' eyeball yet. You don't You don't know what it was like even in 1997. Like not saying like you're stupid, but it's like you cannot you cannot go into Wicked for Good expecting, well, I decided in my head that this is how it was going to play out. What? Like, so that was something that I noticed. What
Costume Design and Production
00:10:53
Speaker
is this? Yeah. And I'm glad that they kept it to themselves until intermission, but I definitely enjoyed this movie and I was so stunned by the volume of costumes yeah that this production team made. Yeah. Like, between the two is it's insane. Yeah. Incredible. So you, how was your over there how was your experience? um I enjoyed the film I thought it was
00:11:24
Speaker
good to use a word um but um my main issue is not with the film it's with the actual like broadway show of wicked and it's been a problem that i've had since the show premiered on me and my problem is that in the book elphaba dies at the end spoilers
00:11:55
Speaker
Okay. And it bothers me that they changed that in the musical. And I remember seeing it in 2005.
00:12:07
Speaker
And i was much closer to having read the book. Like, you know, I had read it while I was in high school. And I was angry at the end of the show because i feel like her living at the end like undercuts the entire like political message of the book about how like we vilify people and scapegoat them and like destroy them. And i don't feel like that hits home as much if you get this sort of fairytale happy ending that the musical
00:12:45
Speaker
provides you where she gets to kind of ride off into the sunset with Fiero, as it were. And i think that it would be a more powerful ending if she actually is killed by this machine that is like out to discredit and like destroy her reputation.
00:13:05
Speaker
And so it does bother me that they gave it the sort of like happy ending um because especially in the musical, like they use, i don't, I don't remember everything about it because I have not seen this show since
Impact of Musical's Ending vs. Book
00:13:23
Speaker
2007. I think I've seen it twice, um but there's,
00:13:28
Speaker
In the movie, like she like pops out of the trap door at the end. And that's what they do on stage. is like You think that she's been melted by Dorothy. But she planned it. But yeah, she planned it. And she pops out of the door. And that's like the moment where like you know everyone in the audience is like like, she's not dead. And I was like, no! felt like was... remember...
00:13:48
Speaker
i was i felt like it was like i i remember At the time, so this is like 18-year-old me, feeling like it was as if they changed the ending of Romeo and Juliet.
00:14:02
Speaker
i get that because it's it's undercutting the actual tragedy of it. Yeah. And it's it's softening the impact for the benefit of the viewer and not the benefit of the story or the impact of the story. Like, I feel like it's the change is to make the audience happy. Yeah. It's it's fan service. And I think that that is a change that, uh, that I disagree with, like that I wouldn't have made because I,
00:14:29
Speaker
I think that the the story, like particularly the book is like very, very political. And obviously it gets sort of lightened and simplified in the Broadway production, obviously. Like don't have a problem with that. That's what happens. Like you only have two hours. book is like, yeah, the book is quite long. um But it's, it's a strange change to make, I think for a story that kind of makes you deal with more like, uh, Complicated emotions and kind of messy characters to have this sort of, oh, like her and the boy get to be together in the end is sort of like making the audience more comfortable that like everything that they've seen so far is, is it's all okay. And it's like, but it wasn't okay. Yeah. It also overwrites the horror of the the magic rules of this version of Wizard of Oz, which is that any
00:15:28
Speaker
spell that comes from the Grimmery cannot be undone. yeah And like that's horrifying yeah that like Bach is turned into the Tin Man against his will, right? And even though Fierro is turned into, got to spoilers, is turned into the Scarecrow against his will, at least there was the intent of saving his life.
00:15:53
Speaker
right And so at least his character can look At the fact that there was love behind it and the intent of trying to save him, of having his like entire agency and like shape removed and transfigured without his consent. But it's like the Tin Man in this version, that is tragedy because like his entire body has been turned into flippant tin. Yeah.
00:16:21
Speaker
When we watch The Wizard of Oz as kids, like, it's not really sold to us as horror because he's just a Tin Man. And we're like, oh, it's just his heart that was taken. Right. Or like he was created Tin Man is how he's presented in The Wizard of Oz. And then he's, what a dancer. um But like in this, it's like, no, he was a munchkin and he was transfigured.
00:16:46
Speaker
very much against his will and like yeah well how horrible is that like he was going to die like whatever ah spell like nessa spoke was he he was going to die if alphaba didn't try to like change it but it's like she can't undo it she can change what it was. And that's the same thing like with Fiero, like the soldiers are going to kill him. And so she's like, I'm going to just change him into something that can't be killed in that way. yeah And it's terrible. And it's like the very like kind of body horror thing of it. But that's, I think that's why it bothers me because it's like, this story is setting up a world in which you have to live with the consequences of the choices that you make.
00:17:31
Speaker
And then at the end, it's sort of like, Oh, nevermind.
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like because I i don't have this deep connection, i i can like make this change okay. But I absolutely understand and see what you're saying. Where it's like, yeah, if she had died, that would be a tragedy. That would be that would show how horrible all of this was and continue to be. And like yes, the legend of Elphaba dies.
00:18:03
Speaker
but like And so to Oz, she dies, but it's a victory for Oz, right? it's so It's a tragedy for Glinda, who thinks she's dead. But that's one person who has the full context of everything that happened and grieves this person who was totally destroyed by this country yeah um and so it's like i'm i'm glad because i i very frequently i'm like yes give me that fan service to feel sad feelings but like i do understand i think i've been the minority in that opinion i just i think i would rather the show leave you with more complicated feelings about yeah how it happens and i i would be interested to see how broadway would carry that off
00:18:47
Speaker
Because like they did with Hamilton, but that's they have the the constraints of like they're basing something on a real person. And that's the that's like the only constraint aside from like the names of other people that they follow with telling the story of Hamilton is that he dies.
00:19:01
Speaker
um But it's like that's that's the convention that they hold to. It's like this is the relationship between these two people and it ends like this. It has to end
Character Arcs and Emotional Connections
00:19:08
Speaker
like this. yeah um And I feel like there's a more extended kind of redemption arc to Glinda in this movie. And I...
00:19:17
Speaker
I don't know. i have feelings about that too. so i i do not. Okay. I wear a costume podcast. well get do it Sign. Yeah. i um I, because I am encountering these things for the first time, I do not have the same, as I said, like relationship with the story or the depth of the story as anybody else. And so like my, my dear friend was like really the target audience for this. So it was like a perfect way to see it with somebody who like loves it. Right.
00:19:53
Speaker
And she was so excited. in it in the second one and like because she'd already seen the first one so she'd already gotten her tears out way back when that came out yeah but this one all the the beats she was feeling them and like cried when it was sad like all of those things because she loves these characters And I was like, fuck you, Glenda.
00:20:14
Speaker
I know. i was just like, I'm so sorry. I just was like, fuck you, dude. Like, yeah, it's it's amazing that you guys became friends and that you're like learning all of these things. But this this person, this woman is not a lesson for you to learn. Continuously over and over and over again. And every single decision you make constantly fucks her over and like drowns her.
00:20:37
Speaker
Fuck you. Like, I know when Elphaba saying like, no, no good deed. And she's like, I'm, I'm out. I'm done. Like, I'm not doing anything nice for fucking anybody ever again. i was like, yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker
very reasonable position that point. 100% the decisions except for the one decision that she made where she was like stop crying just oh give me the flipping shoes I was like I mean I get it but also you just met this child I mean mean like Wizard of Oz is ah my favorite movie of all time and I was sort of like Dorothy give her the goddamn shoes yeah I was like you are a fool but I did I did love that by the way that we never see Dorothy's face Oh, I know. It's so great. And it it's um I think it's it's it's certainly something that's set up in the Broadway show.
Portrayal of Dorothy
00:21:25
Speaker
Like you kind of you see her actually a lot more in this than you do in the Broadway show. You kind of like see her like in shadow a couple times. And I think you see her on stage with her like back to the audience like once, like very far upstage. So like no one is going to see her face up there.
00:21:42
Speaker
But um I felt like she was way more present in the movie than she is in the stage production. But it's so funny the way that she's present because it's like, it's just giving you context that she's like, stories down. from Elphaba and Galinda singing their hearts out. And like Fiona sent me a ah meme that somebody made. It's like, here's like, it was like a little animated thing where like the guards at the top of the tower, like what they're hearing at the end of Wicked. It's like Elphaba's flying around the tower. I was like, that is so good that like Dorothy would be like flying in that bubble going,
00:22:25
Speaker
wait a minute. What the fuck? Just like the bullet train in the background. She's like, huh? i I did feel particularly like she was sort of like white girl stomping around the yellow brick road in this version. There was something about the way that she was walking that I was like, you could you could take it down. like you could it was not so funny to me. And um yeah, I just like, I enjoyed how they placed that character. so in the peripheral. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:56
Speaker
There were a couple times where I was like, h when a costume came on screen. Yeah. Yeah. You there was you alluded to me off mic that there was something that you didn't even want to tell me about because you didn't want to put it into my head and you wanted to see if I could guess
Intricate Costume Designs
00:23:12
Speaker
what it was. Yeah. So can I guess? Yes.
00:23:16
Speaker
Okay. Would you like three guesses? Yeah. I'll take three guesses. Okay. And would you like any hints as to where in the movie it is? I... Not yet. Okay.
00:23:28
Speaker
If I get down to my last guess and I haven't guessed it, then I'll take a hint there. But my first guess of the thing that you didn't even want to tell me about is is Elphaba's knitted robe that she wears in the treehouse. Listen, that thing, hilarious. um No. Really? Yeah. Okay. That one got a laugh out of, I think, the whole audience.
00:23:59
Speaker
Really? Because like i I loved it, but contextually it was so funny that it was like, that's the sexy, sexy robe is this like chunk. Yeah, gray. I loved it though. i loved it too Everybody else, it was like a comedy beat. And I was like, I do think it's kind of funny, but like I, I loved it because of the tactility of it. But that was not the thing that made me go.
00:24:24
Speaker
Okay. My, Second guess is this sort of like gold cage contraption that Madame Morrible is wearing in Munchkinland. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Because Fiona turned to me and she went,
00:24:45
Speaker
Is that – do you know how that's made? And I was like, I don't. I have some guesses. Yeah. And she was like, do you think that's 3D printed? i don't. I don't. I could see it being But I don't think it is. I think that it is cord.
00:24:59
Speaker
I think it is cord too. I think it is cord that is shaped and basically essentially glued, like hardened. Yeah. Yeah. And i made on a form. Made on a form. And then it is something that was made on a form that was Michelle Yeoh's measurements specifically. Correct. And it it it, like, I don't know that we ever see the back. So I'm assuming it goes over her head and then has, like, the shoulder attachments because it does not look flexible.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah. Or, like, maybe some kind of... clicking together some kind of opening in the back that can just be like pride a little bit yeah so that she can like shimmy because that high collar that's on there yeah it i could even see it being two parts being a corseted piece with the the skirt that comes out yeah and then being the like shoulder and the collar. Yeah, I could see that too, for sure. But like, holy, i saw that and I like pointed at the screen because I was like, that is so cool and that is so unnecessary. Like that is unnecessary because that, if that is what we think it is, if that is cording that has been sculpted and fastened, that took a minute.
00:26:11
Speaker
And like, it's One of the things that I love so much about these movies is that that our designer, Paul Tazewell, is so open with information and behind the scenes like pictures and like showing like pattern pieces and showing process photos.
00:26:35
Speaker
And so like – like he he seems like a designer who is not offended at the idea of cosplay. And that's a whole thing that deserves its own episode is that some people look at cosplay as like an insult to their work when it is absolutely not.
00:26:50
Speaker
And like the fact that he shares so much information. much. And really specifically like –
00:26:59
Speaker
Includes like the names and like links to the accounts of the people that make things for his shows and talks about how he collaborated with those makers to like in like bring everything together and just the.
00:27:18
Speaker
The way that he seems to love to work with these people to make something absolutely incredible and like listens to their expertise. It seems like there's a joy yeah that has not been eaten away.
00:27:34
Speaker
Yeah. And that is... And there's no... um It's not coming from a place of like, I'm the genius. It's coming from a place of like, I'm in charge of this project. And these are all of my ideas. And like, what are yours? And we are making this. Yeah.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yeah. Using all of our skills. Because like, okay. So that was that was a piece that just like, the i was like, I... I want to make that now because I want to know that skill. How cool is that? Like imagine designing like a theater production of something and you have the, the budget, which would be like the The tiniest fraction of this budget. know. Because it would be like a grain of sand on a beach. like
00:28:28
Speaker
But imagine having the kind of budget and time where you could make like a few so like armor. I'm doing like air quotes, like armor pieces that are like this. Yeah. Where you could have an artist make that.
00:28:41
Speaker
Oh, these are the details that like throw me. like i just would I know. It's um quite honestly disgusting in its beauty. Literally crying, screaming, throwing up. like My friend is like, oh my God, we're here. We're back in Oz. And I'm like, we were here 20 minutes ago, but look at that fucking thing. And I know it's been like highly, highly documented. like People have already made cosplays of like Ariana Grande's Glinda, the like lavender and blue Glinda dress. But
00:29:16
Speaker
I love that like if you go on Paul Tazewell's Instagram, you can see like the drawing of the beaters. like with It's like the bodice and there's all of the lines that are going to become all of those lines of beating and sequins that they've drawn in different colors to indicate like what they're going to put on top. and Incredible.
00:29:39
Speaker
And it's just like...
00:29:42
Speaker
people don't often share that much. Yeah, it's it's it's a thing where... I remember mentioning in casual conversation to a mentor of mine who I love very dearly, and she is an incredible artist in her own right and has had an incredible career where I was talking about a another educator of mine um and his like sculpting style, because I have a lot of different art skills that i do and I'm interested in, but it was to me, art is a thing to be shared
00:30:16
Speaker
but there are certain points where people gatekeep things in
Artistic Process and Collaboration
00:30:20
Speaker
order to protect techniques so that they can protect their ability to make and sell and live off of their art so that it's not flooding the marketplace with copies of their work. And so she pointed out like, i don't, maybe he, he might be interested in teaching that to you and he might not because like that's his bread and butter. And I was like, that is totally fair.
00:30:41
Speaker
i feel like, That is a real thing, but it gets kind of like
00:30:50
Speaker
lost in the sauce, if you will, because there's always a question that I have for certain makers out there, which is why don't you ever talk about how long it took?
00:31:03
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And people are reluctant to do that. And I don't understand under my own steam where that reluctance comes from because that does not detract from your ability or your specialty.
00:31:16
Speaker
But it does inform other people who do the same thing. It also allows us to have enough context to truly admire what you've done. Yeah. And so whenever we do get that kind of information on a project of like, okay, this is the amount of time that we had. This is the amount of people that we had. And then like, we can kind of deduce like, okay, well, this project probably took like X amount of, and then this person had to like go off and do other shit. Like that is context that i find really, really valuable. And I feel like Paul Tazewell is one of those designers who recognizes that and is not afraid
00:31:51
Speaker
to share that information because it's not a gate that needs to be closed. Like it's not proprietary information. And like, it's, it's okay to share because like I made the thing, like that's mine. My name's on it. Like I got paid for it. um We all know it's mine. You know, it's mine. I know it's mine. You're not trying to steal it. um But then there are so many designers who make kind of like every single design proprietary, every single thought or part of the process.
00:32:22
Speaker
And I would be so interested in knowing why that is, but it is such a relief having a designer who is so
00:32:32
Speaker
I don't even know how to describe his work, but it's like, so it's insane. Insane. Like it's so incredible. And it has so many hands behind it. and Like you scroll on IMDb. There's and over a hundred names in the costume department. Incredible. And like trying to find, I had what I had like seen a a video online and I could not find it again to like fact check it. But in the video,
00:33:01
Speaker
ah The person was saying that they had over 130 people that were working on the costumes for these, like the two movies, because they filmed them simultaneously. And that um they ended up just making a studio, like at the film studio, like they made a workshop at the film studio, because they're like, we actually need everyone here together. We need everyone here. And they're like, it's so much easier than like, you know, let me go talk to this person over there. And like, yeah, we're like shit that person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I've definitely like, I've done that.
00:33:40
Speaker
um One of my jobs when I was working for this workroom in New York was like, take things to different like specialized artisans so they can do their one step of the process and then like bring the thing back to us to finish it. And it does eat up time because it's like, I got to take this fabric over to get laser cut. And then I got to take this fabric over to get like digitally printed. And then I got to take this fabric over to get pleated. And then I got to like bring all of it back together.
00:34:11
Speaker
So that we can like make the thing. and so it's just like taking over a giant area and having everybody there. Everybody can do their thing is like, can't even imagine like, I cannot even imagine what a privilege it would be to have worked on this film. And like in my head, I have still from our last episode, Labyrinth, where there is a documentary out that shows the studio that they built.
00:34:41
Speaker
And you have like a sky high view looking down where you can see like, it's it's insane, but it's all these different areas mashed together in this like warehouse.
00:34:53
Speaker
And working in an environment like that, all the craziness and the stress aside, because that's real and the exhaustion, but like, yeah how inspiring is that to be able to like rest your eyes if you're working on something close up because you should be resting. Hello, listeners. You should be resting your eyes.
00:35:14
Speaker
If you are looking at a computer screen or doing close up work like embroidery or any kind of textiles, look away. Look away a minute for like a count 30. Yeah. 30 Mississippis.
00:35:24
Speaker
rest Let your eyes do what they need to do. But imagine being able to do that and looking at another... artisan yeah and what they're working on and then slowly watching the world come together. Like i have had the privilege of working in a, when when you're in a costume shop, when it's not just you, you do have a privilege of seeing that to an extent, depending on you know, the availability of like your show and, and like what you're able to work on. Right.
00:35:52
Speaker
But, but like at that volume is insane because they have, every time you see extras in like munchkin land, essentially, it's so many bodies and it's bodies that would be at least some of their layers that would be visible would be potentially altered or covered um rental pieces, right? Where it's like, okay, all of these extras are wearing these ensemble characters, if you will, are wearing like, everybody has like eight layers.
00:36:26
Speaker
And like things are, asymmetrical, There's millinery that was specifically made for this, obviously. like There's so much stuff. There's collars galore because there's like every kind of collar you could ever imagine. um There's tailoring everywhere. yeah and and with another kind of thing, you would have like, okay, well, their base skirts are all rental pieces or kind of like a throwaway thing where it's like, we just need to go for color and like fabric, right? And like we don't have time and money to make this for every single person. So we're going to like, why reinvent the wheel? yeah We're going to yeah And we're just going to focus on the pieces that you really do see, which are the outermost layers.
00:37:03
Speaker
But like, nope. no I do believe that they made everything. I think they... And it's the particular design choices of the movie and this really... strong emphasis on the like asymmetrical quality of every single costume piece and the the use of like five different kinds of like technique and embellishment on like every single thing in the movie you can't like nobody has that it doesn't exist like the other version of that because it's like you have to hmm
00:37:45
Speaker
have to is like the wrong word, but the intent is right. Where it's like when you're building a fantasy world, you do want to be able to have this level of ability to create the world from the ground up so that it actually feels like a different world.
00:38:02
Speaker
And I think that like my default for that is always Lord of the Rings. Right. Because like I think in the Fellowship of the Ring or something, they had like over 19,000 costumes, costume pieces. And like, there's like a 12 minute little thing in the appendices where they talk about it. And you get to see like this shot of all the costume racks and this massive warehouse. Like it's crazy.
00:38:23
Speaker
and And so this does happen, but it doesn't happen all the time. It does not happen often because, like, you have to have the money behind it. Yeah, it's so expensive. It's so expensive because you have to pay all of these people and hopefully they're being paid well. And, like...
00:38:40
Speaker
On top of that, you have to buy the materials and like and the size and the time and like some of this stuff. you know like Fabrics do not come from nowhere. Yes, if you are in New York, you you have a fabric district, but that's been highly impacted since COVID. Oh, it's like a shell of his former self. Yeah. So has the LA fashion different? Yeah.
00:39:01
Speaker
The LA fabric district, fashion district, like all these places have been impacted by real world stuff. And like, you can't necessarily just buy things online because you can't actually get a sense of the hand feel or the integrity of the thing that you're buying.
00:39:16
Speaker
So it's like, even that alone is so much time and money invested. And then to build off of that is just like massive. And so like to see this level of attention to detail like I haven't seen behind the scenes stuff. I haven't seen really many of his sketches and stuff. Cause I didn't want to like super in date myself. Yeah. Seeing it. that same Yeah. I didn't really want to look at stuff until I had seen them. Yeah. But it's like, depending on the project and depending on all these things, like there, there is a costume illustrator and there's like a costume concept artist listed on IMDb and there may be more than one of each, but like,
00:39:56
Speaker
That's a process.
Paul Tazewell's Costume Design Approach
00:39:57
Speaker
Yeah, there are actually more than one costume illustrators listed. And I have seen ah i've seen a few of the sketches since yesterday when I watched the movie. Yeah. And there's also another concept artist. So there's multiple concept artists, multiple illustrators.
00:40:11
Speaker
So that then goes to this whole part of the process where you have your head designer and like how much are they actually designing by by illustrating it? like How much are they doing that? And then how much are they looking at different reference points and going, this is what I want this to look like and talking the concept artists and the illustrators through it to get to that. Like that's a whole part of it too, to make it even bigger, which is also beautiful. Cause that's more, um more opportunities for people, more opportunities and more. What's that big word that we always talk about that people misuse? Collaboration.
00:40:50
Speaker
So it's like, that's a whole part of the process. That's like pre-production. And incredible, like, because that's a whole, you know, workshop of its own. i think I read in one of the interviews with ah Paul Taswell that he was designing the movies for about six months before casting.
00:41:11
Speaker
yeah And then had to ah refine and adjust once he actually knew the humans that were going to be in the movie to like adjust designs to accentuate and like highlight them as people. And I know that he had like consultations with Ariana about the wedding dress for Glinda. And like that the design of that was like a whole process where they went through like multiple things.
00:41:43
Speaker
designs before they started making anything. So that's, I mean, the movie was filmed for, the or the two movies were filmed for like a year and a half. And then you've got like six months before at least. So we're talking about like two years. Yeah.
00:41:58
Speaker
And it's like, you think then where it's not just those principal pieces, you're thinking about all the crowd work too. Yeah. And in a project like this being that in depth with how they are dressed that each, it's kind of like, again, labyrinth when we're talking about the the little gremlins, the goblins, how like they had these different kinds of armor that probably the person who made it and designed it was like, yeah, this one's like set to purpose for this. They can do this with their armor. They can do that. It's kind of the same thing for like these ensemble, Ozians is like talking, like showing different class or different jobs, like different things. Cause it's like, you have the Emerald city, you have Munchkin land, you have all these,
00:42:42
Speaker
mass amounts of people, some who need to dance, some who need to be a little bit more in the background. And it's like, that's so much time, so much thinking, and then so much building. Like it was this, I was just like a wash in admiration because it's like, holy cow, there could be this much behind a project like this. Okay. I have vomited out of joy about this. Like cage cord cage situation that Michelle Yeoh is wearing as Madame Morrible, um, towards the beginning of the movie.
00:43:15
Speaker
What was a costume in this that, that gagged you? What was one that got you?
00:43:25
Speaker
I think reflecting on the movie, one that really got me was the Tin Man. And I was really curious to see how much of that was a physical costume and how much was um enhanced with computer graphics.
00:43:46
Speaker
So I found a really amazing photograph of the Tin Man costume on like a dress form. And it's almost all practical.
00:43:58
Speaker
the, Oh, boy. Ethan Slater's in that costume. And what they did, at least ah if if the photograph that I saw is to be believed, he had um like a spandex layer underneath the Tin Man. So where you have places like the knee joints, there's not...
00:44:23
Speaker
the metal pieces there, there's like the, the spandex ah is like a, it was like a electric blue. so you could pick it up like to isolate it.
00:44:34
Speaker
So like there were places that the joints where that spandex was visible so that those like joints could be created to create the negative space that like, you know, cause like his knee is like a kind of like a ball joint or something, you know? Yeah. Um,
00:44:51
Speaker
But it was really fascinating to me to see that character. And um I really, really loved they did ah full prosthetics on his face. um I think they said it took him about four hours to get into that full Tin Man costume.
00:45:14
Speaker
And um he had like 11 different prosthetic pieces on his face so that he could still move. And that was something that I really, really appreciated because the facial expressions of the Tin Man were so amazing in the film and just the like anger and pain that he was showing. Yeah, he didn't have like a flatness. No.
00:45:39
Speaker
There was much dimension. I was really, really, really obsessed with the like scroll grill work piece over.
00:45:51
Speaker
where his heart would have been. That was like a little like door that was like, uh, it was like a little grill so you could see in and you could see the negative space inside where there was nothing in there. And I thought that was just a really, really beautiful detail to really illustrate like the lack of, of heart. And, um, yeah, I just love, i love it so much.
00:46:17
Speaker
Um, I believe, ah in the interview that I read, ah Paul talks about going back to the original Wizard of Oz book illustrations.
00:46:31
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah. And I think the 39 movie must, because there are a lot of similarities with like the shape of pieces and stuff between the two with like the funnel on his head and the sort of like barrel shape ah for the chest. And I, so I think that must be,
00:46:50
Speaker
based on the illustrations of the book in both cases, because he talks about like going back to those and like referencing that in designing the character. yeah,
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah, I just really love the Tin Man a lot. um And I think it said that they like enhanced ah some of the stuff with ah CGI and like added um some rust and weathering later in the movie with the CGI and kind of blended some of the like areas that weren't quite as like perfectly smooth with like the practical costume. But...
Admiration of Iconic Costumes
00:47:23
Speaker
um Yeah, I didn't think the Tin Man was going to get me so much, but i really, really loved that costume a lot. I thought it was amazing. It was really good because it also just like – he seemed so rough. Like the way that the costume is really highlights what's been taken from him. Like every soft part of like a human body is absolutely gone. And it's just like – Oh, it's just devastating to look at. like I know. And I was like, I loved it because I don't like box character. Like, no, he's terrible. And um
00:48:02
Speaker
ah i I hate so much that he like, I don't know if you would call it like leading Nessa on, but he really does not like he views her as like a consolation prize to like not getting to be with Glinda. And I hate that. I hate it yeah so much. It is terrible.
00:48:20
Speaker
um But ah weirdly, when he turned into metal, it really humanized him for me. Yeah, I did not linger on the humanization of him. I lingered on, like, the, I guess, the tragedy of him, which does humanize him. But I was like, this isn't Elfaba's fault.
00:48:40
Speaker
I know. it's not. it's just It's just not her fault. No. And here you are. wanted to kill her. And it's like, misplaced anger, buddy. Like, genuinely misplaced.
00:48:52
Speaker
Come on now. Kiss Nessa. No, thank you. It's like, Minute one of Nessa, I was like, no, I don't care for you. yeah with Wicked one, I was like, no. Little girl, you suck. You've got about 10 years of this that might be marginal ah marginally allowable.
00:49:12
Speaker
And you're like right right at the cusp. because you're like Honestly, I wanted them to do a little bit more with her sort of transformation yeah you know like the terrible like dictator fascist yeah yeah like i wanted a little bit more that was one thing that i felt like if it's a crazy thing to say i'm gonna say something really crazy go right ahead i felt like the movie could have been longer oh How much longer are we talking? I don't know.
00:49:45
Speaker
But like there there's so much that happens in the second act of like the creation of these iconic characters from The Wizard of Oz. Like we watch the Tin Man become the Tin Man. Like we watch the Scarecrow become the Scarecrow. Like we watch Nessa become the Wicked Witch of the East. And I felt like we could have taken a little bit more time figure absorb those things happening and like really see them. um And I, that is a crazy thing to say because these two movies are so long. so so i understand that that is the wrong opinion, but it is my opinion. I'm not going to go so far as to say like, you're wrong, but I am, yeah I do agree
00:50:34
Speaker
that sitting with Nessa being awful a little bit longer would like really, really hit home to what people are allowing, but like putting all of their rage on someone who never did anything to them.
00:50:52
Speaker
Yeah. Also like there wasn't really enough time between when Fierro became the scarecrow and when he like joined up with Dorothy for me to like understand what his motivation in this version of the story would have been.
00:51:06
Speaker
Cause it was like, bam, bam, bam. it was too quick. Cause I was like, where's he coming from? What is his, what's his mindset to use an annoying word? I feel like mindset was his grind set. think that I just kind of like auto filled it as when we see him being beaten in the field, when she's doing the spell to change him. Yeah. That I was just like, Oh, they just took him out to some random field somewhere. yeah,
00:51:35
Speaker
Because he didn't have a brain, right? So like, right did he lose some of his memories? And then like, he's like, yeah, the wizard. I need to get to the wizard because that's like one of the last big things that happened. Maybe i'm filling in a lot.
00:51:51
Speaker
But like, he's like, yeah, I'll go with you because I don't have a brain. And then he gets there and he's like, you've had a brain the whole time. And he's like, oh, shit. wa Wow. Wow. Wow. makes the most sense of any explanation. um So i I fully buy that. I just like, I feel like I could have um spent a little bit more time like taking us on that.
00:52:15
Speaker
like journey i don't know. I don't know how you do that. I'm not here to provide people with a solution. I'm just here to point out problems. I don't know how we could because I feel like it's like he's like, well, the easiest way to get to Elphaba is go with all the people who are trying to hunt down Elphaba because they they're paying attention to it. That is true. And actually what he did in the first half of this movie. Yeah. So like, yeah, okay. I get it. This is how we got to do it. And then he's like, oh, no, I'm dead. it Okay. Bye forever. Never mind. JK. It's over. You can come out of the trap door now.
00:52:48
Speaker
Do you want to know like a massive spoiler for the book? I would love one. Okay. And this is a warning for everybody else. um In the book, him and Elphaba spent a lot more time together and they have a child.
00:53:02
Speaker
Oh, my goodness. And this there's a sequel book to Wicked that's about that child and him trying to like understand who he is and where he came from. whoa Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Now I understand also why the author went for the full tragic ending of killing Elphaba because like, oh, well, she left something behind. Right. Yeah.
00:53:27
Speaker
There is a person who knew her. Right. they I don't think they could ever you know make a sequel musical to ah the second book because it wouldn't make any sense. Apparently somebody was... ah Fiona said that ah there was like an interview where they were asked if there were sequel, would you come back? And Ariana might have said like that some people are trying to make that happen. And I was like, how?
00:53:52
Speaker
ah So I don't know, man. I don't know. In the words of a different famous musical, ah let it go. ah
00:54:05
Speaker
Oh, my God. um Here's a little tidbit. ah Winnie Holtzman was one of the writers on this, and she ah was responsible for My So-Called Life. Oh, i'm okay. Got it. so I was like, Winnie Holtzman? Hello. I haven't seen your name in a minute.
00:54:23
Speaker
I was wondering why Elphaba wore so much flannel in this movie. Yeah, why was her hair that kind of like brassy red? like like the Not even brassy red, burgundy. Burgundy. Kept going in her eyes. and What was that about? Yeah, no, I was like, oh, that's a name I know. Hello. That's so funny. haven't seen you in a while. um There were, i feel like i most of the costumes that like really entranced me were
00:54:56
Speaker
Bits and pieces like that cage for Michelle Yeoh. Collars. Specific hats. that Of course, I was in the theater, so I wasn't actually taking notes, so I couldn't tell you. But um they were like accessories that were made.
00:55:12
Speaker
then... and then you know, like bits and pieces here and there more so than like a solid look for any yeah specific character. Cause in Wicked, the first time we meet Ms. Morrible or Madam Morrible, sorry, not Mrs. She's not married. She's not married. Embarrassing for me. um but in the, in the first Wicked, the first costume that we see Madam Morrible in is one of my favorite in the in the movie because of the color palette yeah and all the different textiles that are all put together with this like cape and this like incredible it's it's beautiful um in this one there wasn't any single piece that yelled there was like elphaba's cloak coat situation i really enjoyed so much because the collar on that guy fantastic but like
00:56:04
Speaker
so many of the ensemble scenes. I was just like, this is fun. I will give a shout out to um Jeff Goldblum as the wizard's like floor length dressing gown. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah The, I mean like it's, it's hard to isolate because the level of like embroidery and beading and things in this movie is just like overwhelming. Exactly.
00:56:30
Speaker
where it's like not It's not that I didn't like anything. I loved it all. yeah it's It's hard for me to say that one was more astounding than another because they all worked so well to establish this world. And like like all of Glinda's stuff was so propaganda. It was all propaganda. Okay, two beats. One.
00:56:50
Speaker
The wedding dress. I do want to have a conversation about it. Two, um the the, oh, no, I've got to get out of here and save my friend.
00:57:01
Speaker
Costume change. where The Christine from Phantom of the Opera case? Yeah. Boots, cloak, gloves, boom. Ball gown. Tiara off, ball gown stays on. Also, did you notice that she lost the like shoulder wings from the dress? Yeah.
00:57:17
Speaker
At that moment. So they they must be detachable. Yeah. Because she didn't have them for the rest of the movie. It was just like, I i loved that as like a character choice because it was so silly. okay here's my like observation as I'm like walking out of the theater.
00:57:35
Speaker
Because our our like lead characters in this movie had many fewer costumes than they do in the first movie. And part of that is like story and like what's going on.
00:57:49
Speaker
But I also think that it was intentional in the sort of losing of... individual agency agency and the transformation into symbol yeah it was propaganda all of yeah glinda's clothing was but it was like it was like glinda and elphaba obviously it was yeah also fiero like he's in that military green and gold military for almost the entire movie if not the entire movie he gets married or he's about to get married in it too like he's always in that look and like
00:58:27
Speaker
Madame Morrible had a few changes, but it was like green, green, green, green. green yeah And it was it was interesting because there's so much in the movie and yet there's so much less than the first movie. Yeah, it's it's really interesting. And so because there's so much less, there's more time to look at some of these extra pieces. Because like of course, you know all of this beading and embroidery and pleading and all of these different details existed in the first one. But it was like, I really was noticing all of those
00:59:00
Speaker
more in this because there were less for the major characters less changes the dressing gown for the wizard was like a little out of control where it was like sir it was so beautiful put that away but you are not dressing you're not fooling anyone get out of town you can knock it all off you oh I loved that thing.
00:59:24
Speaker
There was just like such beautiful details. And what I also really appreciate is that there are a lot of dark moments, not, i mean, yes, emotionally dark beats, but like dark, like lighting cinematography moments. And you could see things so well.
00:59:41
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I'm not saying that I could see like the specific, you know, buttons on something, but if there was embroidery or something like that, the lighting was creative enough that there was under lighting and side lighting and all these different things to create mood. Like everything just like really worked together to not wash anything else out. Like all of it felt equally important to the telling of the story and the establishing of the world.
01:00:04
Speaker
Okay. So this wedding dress situation. Ah, yes. I do have to say the first time we see Glinda... getting ready and like it's it's basically like the underdress i think it's or it's like because i think that there's something that goes over part of it later for the ceremony there's like another skirt or something to make it bigger but like yes yeah so it's like it's a component of a fully finished bodice is the same the bodice is the same but i think there's skirt bigger yeah there's like an over skirt yeah so we're seeing this gown and it's genuinely the smallest gown
01:00:41
Speaker
when we see it that Glinda ever wears, that is a gown. Like, of course we see her in smaller dresses and wicked, but in this one volume, it's the smallest. Yeah. yeahw It's small. And so I was like, this is interesting. Cause it feels so smooth too. Like it it was very smooth. And then it has like this very interesting bust detailing, but it's, yeah.
01:01:01
Speaker
And like a lot of like interesting seeming, you know, but it's, it's a very simplified thing compared to other gowns that she's wearing. So at first I was like, really? But then i appreciated that she does a costume change herself where Elphaba comes in to like talk to her and then disappears. And she's like, damn it. This whole scene is happening between Elphaba and the wizard in his little like workshop. And we hear Glinda coming up. You didn't have to fly away. You could have just walked. Like you didn't have to just disappear. And she appears with like a little over.
01:01:38
Speaker
yeah A little. Like a little wrap. God, what's the. ah a Penoir. Is that? Yeah, I think so. But it's like a pink lace. And yeah. And it like just covers the gown really.
01:01:53
Speaker
And it doesn't have like long sleeves or anything like that. It just covers the gown. And it's. It's just like – It was perfect. Oh, my God. That's funny to me because it's it's like this feels like a very cold place. But you're like, no no, I need to get out of here and button two buttons and I just need enough to like yeah hide the gown.
01:02:11
Speaker
I know. I thought that was so genius because it's also like you're not allowed to see the bride before the wedding, number one. So like obviously you can't see the dress through the sheer pink face. Because obviously, don't even. and it was such a perfect way to be like, she's not, it's like you don't want her to be in a wedding dress in that scene. That's not what the scene is. Yeah. But- logically she has just come from getting dressed so she is in her wedding dress and it was a perfect way of like changing the look and like character wise of course she would have an outer layer that's perfectly tailored to her wedding gown and pink yeah and pink because she's no basic b like she she's got stuff she's single-handedly keeping the tailors of oz
01:03:00
Speaker
Yeah. Working. And so I thought that was so funny. And then like for the actual wedding scene, she does have this like over skirt. I'm pretty sure because it felt like the volume of the skirts got bigger. So either it was – And it had butterflies all over it, which the other one did not.
01:03:18
Speaker
another added component and so i was like that is so awesome Yeah. That you have this one costume that we see three different versions of. And it's just two things being added and then subtracted. And the veil. i mean like And the veil. The veil was massive. It was the longest... thing that's I think ever been made in human history bigger than buildings. um It was so big, but um I know I was like, i was a little bit like, oh yeah, it is a very simple dress in terms of the shape. And I know from reading interviews that it started out being busier and they stripped it down.
01:04:03
Speaker
um And I think ah the sort of inspiration was to lean into the like young, innocent image that That Glinda is trying to express about herself. And I think that it did that. I think like also without having read what you did or seen what you did, just receiving it, it gave this message too of this is something that she really wants. Yes.
01:04:32
Speaker
And so like not a show. It's not a show. It's something that's real. and or at least she wants it to be real. Yeah. In a different way.
01:04:44
Speaker
then she wants to be good. Right. She wants this fairy tale. And so it's like, it's still over the top, but at the heart of it, there is that layer, that undergown that is very simple because it's a simple want and it ties to the character drive that we see a couple times where she's referring back to herself when she's little, where she just wanted friends. She wanted magic. She wanted to be actually valued. Yeah.
01:05:10
Speaker
And like she wanted something real. And so I liked that stripping back, even though there was extra stuff, the extra stuff was up on the outer layers. And like the thing that was closest to her skin was more simplified.
01:05:25
Speaker
i really, really enjoyed that design choice. ah And like, just for me personally, sometimes I have a really hard time with stuff Like gowns that will go for like an asymmetrical bodice neckline because I feel like it can sometimes make the person's body look asymmetrical.
01:05:51
Speaker
Yeah, you have to actually be tailoring it to the person who's wearing it as opposed to just creating an asymmetrical and then putting it on someone. Agreed. And so this was like the absolute like pinnacle, like best thing.
01:06:02
Speaker
beautiful tailoring and sculpting to her body. Like it was perfect. And so I'm like, I don't think anyone could ever do it better. Like, I don't know if it's possible, but um yeah, the, I'm always like wary of like an asymmetrical neckline on like a very fitted gown because it's not always in my opinion, the most flattering, but this one was beautiful. So hats off to everybody who touched that gown.
01:06:33
Speaker
And there's one other piece that I do want to touch on which is Elphaba, Cynthia's coat, cloak situation, where it has so much, it feels, I love it because it's it's like,
01:06:49
Speaker
distressed yeah and tattered and it's tattered but it's like intact and it has just like kind of this like lacy feel where it's been tattered but the sleeves and the shoulders are I am zooming in on a picture of IMDb, so it's not very clear. And I cannot wait until there are some like really good, you know, production stills or something that I can like find and like really look in.
01:07:14
Speaker
But there's something happening with these collars that I, or the shoulders that I don't have a name for. No, because I don't know if it's a surface treatment or if it's actually the construction of the shoulders, but they mimic tree roots. Yeah.
01:07:34
Speaker
Yes. And the same way that like the broomstick has these like roots and like vines, there's this incredible organicness to this coat. And like it is so stunning. like it just I mean, you could put Cynthia in a trash bag and she would make it incredibly gorgeous. This is not a trash bag. This is something that is like so- Lovingly created. and Lovingly created. And it's also got like these boss shoulder pads are But it's like, the I just, I love this thing so much.
01:08:09
Speaker
And I love that she gets time with it so that it becomes her, like you said, like symbolic shape wise of like, the the wicked witch. Like, I just like, I love every choice about this because it, it's like that the tattering also kind of reminds you of like wings, like crow wings a little bit. Like there's so much happening here that is really lovely and you want to get your hands on it. And I love that, that Elphaba has so many textural pieces.
01:08:41
Speaker
There's like a richness, even though it's, it's black, like there's always richness to what she's wearing. Yeah. Yes. It's never just, and it's like, there's, there's this overall quality to so many of the costumes throughout these two movies that is wonderful, like organic sweeping lines and shapes, but it's fascinating to see how using different materials and different techniques to create those shapes can give them such different
Cohesive Design Style in Oz
01:09:15
Speaker
feelings. Like, Yeah, there's there's just so much. um
01:09:21
Speaker
It's very like art nouveau. It's very swirling. It's very um I think they use like Fibonacci curves a lot in the design, but it's like the way it's expressed on the different characters is so unique that it does give like this cohesive.
01:09:41
Speaker
quality to everyone in Oz that like these are the things that these peoples like to do with clothes but we're going to express it in like a thousand different ways to give you like this character and this circumstance for this person and it's just insane it's wonderful and it's one of the rare fantasy things where it does not bother me that everything looks clean yeah Because there are certain things that don't on purpose. And there's also like delicate weathering on certain things.
01:10:13
Speaker
But like most people have these very, very clean, perfect costumes that look like they were freshly sewn. And it suits the story. It suits the world that we're looking at. So it doesn't actually stand out. It doesn't make me go like, don't know. Let's feel more lived Like, no, it it yeah feels like what the world is trying to sell itself as to its own residents. Yeah. Right. And I think that that's a really great harmony with all of the aspects of design, because if they were like, you know, crawling around in like a muddy forest the whole time, but then in these like pristine costumes, you're, you'd be like, this looks weird. Like, this doesn't make sense, but like, it doesn't make sense. Yeah. But they're in the, like, they're in like cities where like everything is like cut and cleaned and like
01:11:01
Speaker
ah You don't see, like, dirt everything very much. And everything's supposed to be perfect and anything that's different is, like, literally feared. Yeah. This was a really, really luxurious costume experience. Like, it was...
01:11:19
Speaker
something that I am so glad to have seen. and I did not even hit on like this collar situation that Elphaba is wearing at one point that looks like ragged and it's over her black, you know, like coat without any sleep. Like there's so many different things happening.
01:11:39
Speaker
That if I had notes, that would be different world. But I'm not that person. I'm not that girl. I mean, it's also like, I mean, it's, you know, ah I think there are other, you know, costume podcasts that are going to like oh do these like intense like research. Deep, deep, deep. Deep. But yeah.
01:11:58
Speaker
It's, you know, we're here to talk about how it affects the story of the movie, not just clothes. Yeah. You know, so. um I think that there's so much that that we could touch on, but can't like because it's just it's overwhelming. And it's also that it just came out and it's the first time seeing it, too. So it it was nice to just see it and let it wash over. if they wanted us to talk about everything, they should have made a lot fewer costumes or simply too much. There's too much. And that's that.
01:12:31
Speaker
But definite high recommend. um Please, please take a look at these costumes and see with your own eyes, like how they contribute to the world and the establishing of the world and the politics of the world and like which characters are wearing what and what they're wearing, what it means. Yeah.
01:12:50
Speaker
Because like, is it a symbol? Is it something that the character is choosing for themselves or someone else has chosen for them? This is a movie that demonstrates those things. And on top of that, there's just such, there's like an endless display of incredible skill.
01:13:04
Speaker
And I think I watched a couple of clips from it, but I haven't seen the whole thing. But um Paul Taswell did do a TED talk where he talks about how costume designers are storytellers. And so I would, I'm going to watch the rest of it. I recommend anyone that is interested in hearing about that, watch the rest of it because um it's something that I know we know because that's what we do, but um it's a lot more
01:13:35
Speaker
ah it's it's more subtle for people that aren't actively like engaging with it that way but it's really great to have somebody who is so talented and so ah just seems like such a great human being in the industry to who also is commanding a lot of attention right now to like take the time to talk about that for people that aren't necessarily thinking about it on their own. So I appreciate that that happened. I'd also like to jump off of that really quick. Paul Tellswell seems to really invest in engaging with the community of makers that way, where it's like, yes, we talked about how he talks about his process and all of these things, but he seems very focused on the next generation and their learning
01:14:22
Speaker
And like people coming up and they're learning and they're being able to have access points to learn. Because I don't know if i've told you this before, but um the school that we went to and other community colleges around, well, colleges, there, I believe it's still there. I don't know if it is, but there's a a festival called KCACTF, Kennedy Center's um American College Theater Festival.
01:14:44
Speaker
And there's different zones in the US where different colleges are like parts of different zones. So they go to different places to take part in KCACTF. And then they get, you know, they present certain students are picked from their schools. They present at this thing, get feedback from adjudicators, um compete in tech Olympics if they're tech students. And then you get chosen Like basically, if you have a show that you designed as a student or unrealized or realized, you can get chosen and then sent to the Kennedy Center in D.C.
01:15:18
Speaker
to present out there. Well, Paul Tazwell was an adjudicator for a couple friends of mine when they went to KCACTF in like 2014.
01:15:31
Speaker
14 or something like that. So cool. And like he spent time with them talking about their projects and how to basically like, you know, giving them advice on what to do to shape their work and do better. And I was like, huh?
01:15:46
Speaker
I mean, that's insane. That's like, that's like right before Hamilton came out. It's like, huh? He's probably in the middle of working on Hamilton when he's like, I better go down to DC and work on that real quick. No, he didn't go to DC. I think he was out in the West Coast for it. Oh, my bad. Never mind. I think he came to the actual like competition part to adjudicate.
01:16:09
Speaker
but Well, maybe he was in DC. I can't remember which part it was. But either way. Whatever. He he was an adjudicator for college students because he he gives back. Yeah. And I think that that is so admirable and he does not hold himself at a great distance. yes And so he is an artist who is approachable, but is not making his art a mystery hundred percent. And I think that that is so that is a choice that he made in his career and I'm very grateful for it. So yeah.
01:16:44
Speaker
Yeah. Wicked for good. Wicked for good. Good movie. Everybody check it out. um Thank you so much for listening to this episode.
01:16:55
Speaker
Please join us on our next episode where we are going to actually be talking about 1988's Willow. Now, Melinda just revealed to me you've never seen it. Nope. Don't know anything about it.
01:17:10
Speaker
I did not see it as a kid. I saw it for the first time probably when I was like And so like it was not a ah thing that I grew up watching that shaped like my fantasy preferences. But when I watched it, it's one of those where I go, oh, I love this era of like dark and dirty, feels real fantasy that like they didn't pull the punches on trying to make the world feel real, but also somehow by the end of the movie, you might feel a little bit
01:17:43
Speaker
lost. like who but what So I love this. It's directed by Ron Howard, written George Lucas, Bob Dolman. I had no idea. Yeah. Starring Warwick Davis, Val Kilmer, and a bunch of other artists.
01:17:59
Speaker
ah Disney, there is a tragic thing to this, which is that Disney released a sequel show um and then they erased it. From basically the database. So you can't, as far as I know, because I did get to watch it, but they canceled it and then like took it away and did not release it in physical media as far as I know.
01:18:21
Speaker
And that is shitty. But... This old version, um the original, if you will, um I think it's really lovely. And like it is, it's definitely a fantasy. It's a sword and sorcery fantasy. So there's a lot of cloaks, a lot of um like bo boots and woolens and things like that. So I have not watched this from a costumer's lens before. So I'm excited because like 80s fantasy, there's just, mean you're gonna find glitter.
01:18:53
Speaker
Yeah. it's you're just You just need to be okay with that. It's a non-negotiable. It's going to be there. And so in this, I'm excited to see where the glitter shows up. Yeah. oh Well, yeah I look forward to finding out. Hey, yo. Okay.
01:19:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye.