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Pan's Labyrinth- Millennials Know
0 Playsin 18 hours
The pale man traumatized a generation of moviegoers. Were you one of them? This movie is brimming with incredible creature and monster designs paired with perfectly real characters that are in the most lovely lived-in clothes. Plus the most messages about Catholicism and whether the fairytale ending is real or not. Check it out and let us know what you think really happened at the end!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457430/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_3_tt_3_nm_5_in_0_q_pans%2520
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hot Set' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
Season Finale: Focus on Fantasy Movies
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello friends, welcome back. We're still here, still making this show. We are getting really, really close to the end of our season on fantasy. So in case anyone hasn't been, you know, counting episodes meticulously, which would be kind of a crazy thing to do um This is our second to last ah episode for this particular season. And I know, isn't that crazy? i feel like we just started it. I know it's really cliche to say that, but it does feel like we just started it.
00:00:56
Speaker
um And yet I also feel like I've been here suspended for hundreds of years, like the fawn. It's been 84 years.
Plot Overview: Pan's Labyrinth
00:01:08
Speaker
um Today, we watched the 2006 Guillermo del Toro film Pan's Labyrinth. And I'm going to read a very, very brief synopsis from IMDb, which is, in 1944 Spain, a girl is sent to live with her ruthless stepfather.
00:01:30
Speaker
i think it should also include, this is me deviating from that, that she sent... with her mother her mother is with her i think that's important information um during the night she meets a fairy who takes her to an old fawn he tells her that she is a princess and must prove her royalty by surviving three gruesome tasks and now i'm going to expand upon that so in addition to her completing these like three magical tasks. The other side of side of that coin is her stepfather is a military captain that is posted at this old mill with the express purpose of finding and killing resistance fighters to the like current political regime in Spain.
Ophelia's Dual Worlds: Fantasy vs. Reality
00:02:28
Speaker
and so,
00:02:31
Speaker
And our main character, Ophelia, is trying to navigate this like magical ah sort of adventure on one side of her life and on the other side is facing this like brutal reality that her mother is pregnant with this baby with her new stepfather. Her mother is very sick.
00:02:51
Speaker
And the stepfather is, I mean, i don't know any other way to say it, but he is a fascist in his political beliefs and his opinion of like his position in their family. Everybody's job is to do whatever he says. And he's extremely ruthless, violent, and um doesn't really seem to care about any of the other people in this movie regardless of their relationship to him except I see Ariel has put a finger up and I think i think actually what she's going to interject the one thing that he does care about which is the unborn child
00:03:38
Speaker
of him and his wife that he refers to as his son, despite it being 1944 and nobody knowing the sex of that baby until it is born.
00:03:49
Speaker
um That is the only thing that he seems to care about. And he only seems to care about it in terms of cementing his air essentially his succession of perpetuating this mentality and lifestyle that he holds man dear i don't man like oh what uh what a loser ew gross
00:04:20
Speaker
i mean I yeah did a little bit of reading.
Spotlight on Leila: Costume Designer
00:04:24
Speaker
No matter what I tried to type into the old internet box, I could not find any articles about the costume design or the costume process. I know that there are like little bits of videos of behind the scenes, but this was not an opportunity where our costume designer was necessarily very, very vocal or able to be super vocal about the process and like a million different articles the way that we do get sometimes. Yeah. Right. um
00:04:52
Speaker
So Lala or Leila is the costume designer for this. And i looked at her CV. I've only seen one other of her projects and it was my life in ruins. Oh,
00:05:10
Speaker
2009, starring Nia Vardolos. And it's basically about like a tour guide in Greece who takes people to tour the ruins. And like, you know what I mean? And so I was like, huh. Yeah. Like from my what I understood, though, like she is sort of like that girl in Spain. She is like the most prominent yeah designer for film in Spain. She's got a ton of things under her name. And this was like the big one that jumped out to me as being the most...
00:05:43
Speaker
outside of well what's funny is like it's fantasy so it's the biggest like yeah fantasy like it is not outside of what we know of like regular clothing because that is a majority of this film is regular clothing it's just like with a strict palette and you know very deliberate yeah but um And so her he stuff is mostly that. And it she did a great job. She did a great job. Yeah, it's beautiful. Just to preface, it's beautiful. um But yeah, I was like a little bit surprised that I didn't recognize more of her work.
00:06:17
Speaker
Because holy cow, I feel like if you work with Guillermo del Toro, like, you should be walking on air. no like Yeah, I know. launched into space like i didn't know who the costume designer for the movie was before watching it i didn't have any like memory of who may like who made this movie other than guermo del toro And so when I clicked on her profile, I guess I was kind of expecting to see other Guillermo del Toro movies on her CV. So it seems more like...
00:06:56
Speaker
ah the setting of this movie dictated maybe that she would design it rather than it being someone that he has worked with multiple times.
00:07:07
Speaker
um If that sounds like, you know what i mean? Like, um you know, it being a Spanish movie seems to be more of a indicator that, you know, that she would do it rather than it being like a designer that Guillermo del Toro hires every time or something. Yeah, like an intertwined creative relationship. Yeah. Right.
00:07:27
Speaker
And so it was like, oh, because I'm not used to directors like this who have such strong visions. Mm-hmm. Kind of like freewheeling it. Because for other – freewheeling is so dramatic. I just have such a lazy way of talking. But it's like for for other of his projects, he's worked with um Kate Hawley. And like that feels a little bit like um Tim Burton and – Ooh, I cannot help you there. So sorry. Colleen Atwood.
00:07:54
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Duh. Yeah. Where it's like you just kind of like you think of one and you think of projects of the other for sure. And so it was like, oh, huh.
00:08:05
Speaker
But like what a cool opportunity because you worked on this one and it feels feels very Spanish and I don't know anything about Spain, but like it feels – very much like a capsule of very tightly wound story in this like moment in time.
Del Toro's Catholic Influences
00:08:19
Speaker
and um so because i I couldn't find any like articles about the costume designers process, everything I found was Guillermo del Toro talking about all of the design. So it it made it seem more like this was a project of a sonographer where somebody is designing like all aspects. And like, because did you read...
00:08:42
Speaker
Anything, like any articles or anything about? um I didn't read any specific articles, but just like information that I saw on like IMDb and Wikipedia was really indicating to me that he had done a lot of concept drawings related to this movie, that he had like this sort of ongoing experience.
00:09:06
Speaker
sort of like journal where he would put like ideas and things and it seems like those ideas translated into some of the visuals of the movie obviously with like input and uh creative work of other people as well but that was my impression of what i read Yeah.
00:09:26
Speaker
Well, that's cool. Like I, why would I go to IMDb and look under the trivia or the information? That's crazy. I um found a couple of interviews with him that were pretty great. One is from screenanarchy.com from 2006 and the other is from the Guardian from about the same time. Cool. Yeah.
00:09:44
Speaker
What I like is that he's very, very vocal about his process and his thought process. And so it's like with this movie, it's one of those that like you can leave open to interpretation. and so everything is working towards...
00:09:58
Speaker
both interpretations the whole time, like the color palettes are like, this is this is one of those where everything is working towards telling the story very clearly. And um i would never have guessed some of the influences or some of the things that he was thinking, um because I would just be like,
00:10:18
Speaker
Oh, spirals. Spirals mean this. Spirals, you know, it's one of those opportunities to just like make up your own stuff, which he's totally like in love with. It's people taking away their own thing. But um both of these interviews really like pinpointed specifically what his opinion is about this movie. And like, because you can walk away going, is the fantasy real? or is the fantasy an escape?
00:10:42
Speaker
right And according to Guillermo del Toro, it's real. He's like, I gave you three solid clues that it's real. Do you want to guess what those three clues are? Oh my God. costume related. Well, whatever. Why would that matter? um I, yeah, I did think that was interesting that he said in his opinion that it was real, which I was like, I love that the writer and director is like, well, in my opinion, the creator thing but like who am I to say um but it was something that I was thinking about while watching the movie was sort of like I felt like
00:11:20
Speaker
it was ambiguous enough that yeah you could take it to be what you wanted it to be. um and i was I was sort of waiting for the very end to be like, is it going to give me a definitive answer one way or the other? And I i've personally felt like it didn't give me a definitive answer, but I chose to believe it was all real personally. yeah because i And sorry, is this the first time that you're watching this? Oh, no. you Sorry. like that Yeah. Yeah. I saw. No, I had. say
00:11:51
Speaker
It's one of those things like I saw the movie in the theater in 2006. I was really excited to see the movie. I thought it was great. I loved it. I have not seen it since then. And a lot of the details just didn't.
00:12:06
Speaker
stick with me there are certain things that i remembered clearly and certain things that i just completely forgot which is pretty normal for me on a movie that i've only seen like once um so i i felt like it was kind of nice to watch it again because it almost felt like i was watching it for the first time but not quite so same man yeah what a parallel what a what a duo because it was the same I watched it back then and I feel like I had friends who were very like hardcore Guillermo del Toro fans where like they had watched his previous stuff and and like really loved looking for the details and things like that. And this was before I was really this is when I was developing the skill of watching films movies this way. yeah And so I was like, this is brutal.
00:12:58
Speaker
That's like what was in my head. And I remember being overpowered, not in in ah in a negative way, like very much in a positive way by the character design of the creatures and like,
00:13:12
Speaker
ah Oh, my God. The hands. It's like the Final Destination movies with like millennials driving behind trucks that are hauling like trees. Logs. No, thank you.
Catholic Themes: Immortality and Sacrifice
00:13:20
Speaker
Lumber. Nope. And it's the same thing. You just put your hands in front of your eyes and a generation is like, ha.
00:13:26
Speaker
so i I very much felt like I was watching this movie for the first time. So what I like is that the three clues that he gives. Yeah, please tell me because I have no idea. Yeah, I'm not going to make us think too hard. So the most important clues he says are the flower at the end.
00:13:41
Speaker
Okay, yes. And the fact that there's no way other than the chalk door to get from the attic to the captain's office. Like that literally is real. And then the third clue is she's running away from her stepfather, reaches a dead end. And by the time he shows up, she's not there.
00:13:57
Speaker
because the walls opened for her. And he says, so sorry, there are clues that tell you where I stand and I stand by the fantasy. And so he says this film is a Rorschach test of where people stand. There are some things in these this this these interviews that I just like, I have to tell you about.
00:14:13
Speaker
Please. So one of the interviewers talks about like, um you grew up Catholic. Do you consider yourself a lapsed Catholic or like an agnostic or an atheist? And he's like, no, I will always be a lapsed Catholic because...
00:14:27
Speaker
that's how I grew up in the world. So that is what shaped my brain and regardless of whether or not I believe those things anymore, that's what shaped my brain. So it's like, I will always be this thing because that will always have shaped my perspective, negative or positive. Yeah. But then he's also responding to a question about, ah in your two, who's a friend of his said that this is the most Catholic of his movies. And he's like, yeah, I guess it is because like the way,
00:14:54
Speaker
what is it? He talks about immortality and he talks about characters. When you achieve true immortality is when you don't care about whether or not you live or die. And Ophelia like becomes immortal, becomes this like princess who is immortal because she's like this life I can let go. And like, she creates this, this very um innocent sacrifice, you know, like she doesn't choose to hurt her brother. She chooses to sacrifice herself. And then she will live forever. And like even if that mortal life, all that's left is this flower that blooms in the tree. If if she had not been there, that flower would never have bloomed. Like he he goes on to talk about like all these things. And like it because it's like it seems it's very, very fairy tale in the sense that like when she sacrifices herself, she has no knowledge that it's going to work out for her.
00:15:47
Speaker
yeah She just thinks I'm sacrificing myself. like Yeah. And she like it doesn't really matter. She's just like, this is what I have to do. This is what going to do. and Well, and I think there's other like...
00:16:00
Speaker
I mean, there's there's other things in the movie that seem very Catholic, like the um when they're having the dinner party and the priest is there and they're talking about the freedom fighters or rebels, what depending on your perspective. They're either terrorists or freedom fighters, so whatever. But freedom fighters for me. um But they're they're talking about these guys. Let me just say. yeah to mom i yeah mother had a feeling and that you would not be... on the other side of that issue.
00:16:31
Speaker
But um the the priest basically says, like, it doesn't matter what happens to their bodies, because what happens to their souls has already been decided. And it's like said in the context of like, you can do absolute brutality to these people, and it doesn't matter, ah which i I disagree with. So the crazy thing is that line that you specifically just said, comes from an actual speech yes from an actual Catholic priest yes during Franco's war, at the Civil War in Spain. And so, like, del Toro just... I really recommend reading these these interviews because I'm not going to be able to say stuff right. Like I was reading it literally like while I was watching the movie and I was like, man, I'm wrapped up in a blanket burrito and I'm real bummed out right now. Like this is a lot of really amazing information, which would be so cool to also get the costume designers perspective. But Del Toro, I think.
00:17:27
Speaker
really fed into the costume designs based on all of these things that he's talking about. So there there are a couple of things that are really important. So one is that Opus Dei, the Catholic cult, built a temple the town that he grew up in. What is the name of Dan Brown? Are we talking about? So that really influenced a bunch of stuff. And then this also, this movie is a direct response to himself from himself to a previous movie called The Devil's Backbone, which also takes place at the same time, but it's from a boy's perspective. And he said, not basically, you should. I mean, it's a horror movie, but you should. you know
00:18:03
Speaker
ah He says, like, fascism is a boy's game. And so I wanted to explore what that would be for of a young girl. And like, I wanted them to answer each other and to be reflective of each other. So if anybody's ever going to watch these, I recommend watching them both side by side. In my memory, The Devil's Backbone has a very blue design palette.
00:18:26
Speaker
This movie, I feel like, has two distinct... palettes one is warm one is cold and like the the cooler one is the reality that we know with the yeah the fascistic spanish yeah like how many shades of gray can we have so much gray that that lean into green and lean into blue and like the fascists are all in blue and then like a lot of the freedom fighters are in green so that they would kind of like... I kept going back and forth between whether those military uniforms were gray or blue.
00:18:58
Speaker
i feel like they're probably gray but lit blue yeah or something. So it's like they kind of read like a warm gray that goes into a blue. And so I don't quite know exactly what they are. But there's like a not full twilight blue airs filter. yeah And this is the age of filters. yeah like So I'm not sure. but there's like...
00:19:21
Speaker
there there's something that's colder and that's the fascism and then there's the freedom fighters who are more aligned with like the world that they're living in and and then in between the natural world and then in between there's Ophelia and the fantasy world and like Ophelia is mostly not in these colors yeah I think she mostly wears green yeah she mostly wears green but like So she's tied to the natural world. But in the fantasy, there's like when we're out of the labyrinth and we're in like the kingdom, there's a lot of gold and a lot of reds. And then those also peek in and out because Toro says that he basically...
00:20:02
Speaker
he says this multiple times that the designs were really based in uterine imagery. So there's loose okay just in case it didn't hit you over the head. There's the uterus. The symbols of the uterus are all over the place constantly, even on the, um, the fawn's head, the spirals.
Symbolism in Costumes: Character Parallels
00:20:20
Speaker
And then like, there's a scene where Ophelia is in the bathroom right before she finds her mother starting to bleed out. Um, she's looking at this empty book that the fawn gave her and there's, just the shapes in blood of the uterus. And then it like bleeds over so that it like goes away. But we're so focused on just spirals and spirals. Cause like the labyrinth is spiral. And what I loved about this so much is the imagery of the, the fascism versus the natural world. And that like the fascism is all very tailored. And like, if you study history, you
00:21:01
Speaker
anytime there's a fascist regime, basically, they really go in with, like, very controlled clothing and, like, very controlled gender roles. All of these things are very The um way the only way. only way. then, like, anything that's organic or natural is going to be looser and, like, have more natural shapes that, like, show up. Like, spirals and things like that.
00:21:22
Speaker
And so... It's into the box of... Yeah. The regime. I love that Ophelia, like, really... embodies that in her clothing. She's never, she's only dressed perfectly, like a couple times, and it gets like ruined. So she never meets the expectations of her evil fucking stepfather it's never her choice in those moments that she's wearing those clothes it's something that's being put on her by like the expectations of this particular type of society about like what a daughter's role is and what is like what she is meant to act like and how she is meant to
00:22:08
Speaker
arrange herself yeah and when you mentioned in the synopsis that her mother is with her and her mother is not mentioned there's a reason for that i think and it's because like her mother is with her and clearly they love each other but her mother is not protecting her her mother is not really taking care of her as like i mean she is but not as like the mother figure that understands her. No, that's Mercedes. Then so Mercedes is the housekeeper in the house. And Mercedes, this is another thing that Del Toro said that I was like, oh my God, I love looking at it this way, is that Mercedes sees in Ophelia herself.
00:22:46
Speaker
Mercedes is who Ophelia would be if Ophelia chose not to keep believing in the fairies. And so like looking at them, they are always aligned. Their costumes are always like in the same world, in the same palette. They both aren't perfect perfect like they are wearing yeah lived in clothing that's like has hand touches that are like the number of cardigan sweaters oh the two of them were delicious sweaters the like knitting there's one picture it's on imdb it's number three of 316 where it's mercedes and ophelia and mercedes is wearing this like shawl that
00:23:26
Speaker
I don't even know. it's really, really gorgeous. And she's like next to a stone wall and like the textures together are just like really lovely. And her shawl and Ophelia's coat, which is like a woolen thing.
00:23:40
Speaker
There's the underlying grays, like whatever colors they are, they're mutes. They're not like super saturated and they just like really compliment each other and the books that they're holding in between them.
00:23:51
Speaker
but it's just like I did want to say in defense of of Carmen, the mother. i just want to i Because i think that um I think that her character is extremely vulnerable throughout the movie. Like she's...
00:24:07
Speaker
um she's been widowed, right? That's how she met this guy in the first place. And when you get any information on that timeline, it seems like an extremely short period of time. So she seems like someone who was very lost and vulnerable. And she's um she just seems like someone who just can't really see clearly of like what to do. And then she's also like very physically ill with this pregnancy throughout most of the movie. So she's like being sedated by this doctor constantly and kept in bed when she like doesn't really want to be. So i think that there's, um it it felt to me throughout the movie, like she's being very intentionally like subjugated into the role of the uterus basically. Yeah, she is.
00:25:01
Speaker
a figure of woman being subjugated and like not having any tools to escape that because like her children the child inside of her and the child that she loves who is Ophelia she cannot figure out a way to provide for them safely and so like this is where she has been corralled like it seems like she just doesn't really have a lot of like choice she has to like give in to certain things and so she loves her child like that is not in question But she is a little bit more, the boot is on her neck. yeah And like, she can't upset the balance because she will lose her children, the safety that she's trying to provide for them, all of these things. Like she is trying to walk on a knife's edge.
00:25:46
Speaker
And so she is a very sympathetic character. But she is not in a position where she can really give her daughter what her daughter needs. And Mercedes able. Ineffectual. Yeah. Yeah. Like she just can't. Did you notice in the opening scene when they're in the car, like driving to this terrible mill where everything is about to happen? Yeah.
00:26:07
Speaker
that Carmen and Ophelia are wearing the same coat. yeah They're just like the child version and the adult version. And I feel like from that moment on,
00:26:20
Speaker
that never happens again. like never happens It's like they're immediately separated from each other from that moment through the rest of the movie. And that's like part of the problem is this like this bond and like unity is like immediately broken by this horrible man Well, it's like even the patterns on the clothing that Ophelia's mother is wearing, the way her hair is styled, we never see that again. She's always dressed... kind of like a doll or like with her hair down for the captain's eyes. And so it's like Mercedes and Carmen are two different examples of where Ophelia could head essentially. But Mercedes is like the more organic alignment and like Mercedes can see herself in Ophelia. And I just like love watching these three
00:27:12
Speaker
women like the two women and this child be connected visually the way that they are and the way that they continue to be like throughout the whole movie it just like keeps going my that is crazy um but like there's so we have this like cool world and then we have like the natural world and then we have the fantasy world where there's reds and golds that tie in into the uterine and the blood like this very organic, like human the um connection, the most or um almost organic of all things. And um those are like, that's kind of the only time that we see Ophelia dressed in a very fancy way that does not seem like something she would object to. and the I love how they represent all of those things with the shapes that she's wearing. in the patterns that she's wearing because the other time where she's wearing something, her costume is what's been put on her to make her more aligned with the fascist ideal of like perfection is essentially an Alice in Wonderland getup where she has, I mean like full on petticoat,
00:28:23
Speaker
Little green dress. It was green. And then um pinafore a pinafore. and like little black patent leather. Yeah. Like Alice in Wonderland. Just you are a child. This is how you should look. And she pretty much she's told like you cannot mess this up. And she like messes it up like immediately. She's trying to keep it clean, but she's on her journey and it all just goes to shit. It's just so covered in mud. And she tries to she she hung it up so nice. She did. You know, just was out of her hands. Yeah. And then at the end of this film, after she spoiler alert, all these years later, has been killed, and she dies. And then we see her like, in this kingdom of the fairy tale being welcomed by her father and her mother um who are on these big tall thrones with like golden crowns and like these crimson road And her mom's like blonde. I know like blonde waves. What's going on up there? Ophelia, yeah, just like very, very deliberate.
00:29:23
Speaker
Ophelia is wearing... This like gold dress that has pattern matching that is so precise and gorgeous right at her throat, basically. is where this flower, this red flower bud is.
00:29:40
Speaker
and then like the stem, it's just like, it's very interesting because it's this little ruffled like collar. And then like this seam line that goes right down the center of her chest where the pattern matches immaculately. And then it like opens up into a pleat basically. And then over that she has this see-through red.
00:30:00
Speaker
Yeah. This like beautiful organza. Oh, and it like has this very, it's headal kind of It's like a petal shape or it's also a little bit like the wings of a praying mantis like on their body. And like the first fairy she sees is a praying mantis. Is it a praying mantis?
00:30:17
Speaker
I know it's a giant bug. i feel It's like a stick bug. I don't know if those are mantis. But it's a a long elongated. with Yeah, neither am I. So it's a long elongated bug with like smooth curves. And this kind of feels a little bit like that.
00:30:34
Speaker
And it's just like this really lovely costume that is like nothing about it is constricting. Yeah. It's like the total opposite of the little Alice in Wonderland, but it is really beautiful and put together. Hello, Aida. Thank you for your, your drop in.
00:30:55
Speaker
And I love that her hair is like frizzy, even when she's dressed this way, her hair is, like half up, half down and like still a little bit frizzy, not perfect curls, nothing. And that's like how she's been herself most of the time.
00:31:09
Speaker
Just the way that they handled her. I love her costumes. They're so natural to the character. It feels like so that when something unnatural happens, you're like, Ooh, yeah, I don't like this. I don't like this for you I think that, the, um,
00:31:25
Speaker
the The overall um feeling of the movie is just that everything feels right. And um and i I know we've said so many times, so I'm repeating myself, but that's really hard to do. um It's really hard for everything to feel right and for nothing to stick out to be like, what is that? And um it's so it's like it and it's also one of those things like when you have to...
00:31:55
Speaker
worlds and one is presenting itself as a real world and one is presenting itself as a fantasy world the real world has to be very real so that you can create that contrast with the fantasy world so like you have to really stick to the letter of real looking clothes and real grounded choices for those clothes and you can't get like too fantastical with those unless you're really doing it for like a reason but you don't want that you want it to be very
00:32:28
Speaker
I don't even know. I'm like trying to think of the word, but like that has like a positive connotation. But you want it to be very like ordinary in that way. Yeah. And that's one of the hardest things. We've talked about that before with like modern movies is that it's really hard to do something modern that is not immediately dated.
00:32:45
Speaker
Like the second it premieres that it's dated because like – you have to create like an organicness to it. And that is a special sauce that I do not think is in my repertoire. And like with this, the way that the the like ordinariness kind of happens is that everything is so lived in. Like you see the freedom fighters, you see the people of the town who are like,
00:33:10
Speaker
really struggling, you know, under the boot of this regime. And there are people who's like stockings aren't like being held up anymore. Cause like they don't have garters or they don't have like elasticity or whatever. and um,
00:33:26
Speaker
Then the freedom, like the accessories, the way that kerchiefs are tied, the way that bags are across chests, the way the belts are, the way that like bags and and weapons, all of these things, the way that they're all applied, the way that people are wearing hats, what kind of hats they're wearing, the way that the hats are aged or folded, all of these different tiny, tiny details all make each character look individual, not like a grayed out, um,
00:33:53
Speaker
just just stand there and like say rabble, rabble, rabble in the background to make it like crowd work. Like yeah each what each person who is an extra looks like an actual individual with their own story feeding into this one yeah and not just like symbolic. And that is so much talent and specificity that is like, yes, we do have the fawn who we will talk about. We do have like The Pale Man, you know, the biggest, like, fantastical features. We have some fairies. i got some things to say about the Pale Man. Yeah. But, like, I think that the magic of this is not just those big feature characters. The magic is in the ordinariness and showing you the world. Like, I...
00:34:41
Speaker
have always been – I feel like throughout my career, I'm always on the lookout for um research resources of regular people because I think that a lot of – Even the people that are like, okay, I'm going to research what clothes were like in this period.
00:35:03
Speaker
a lot of the sort of first things that you will find are going to be like fashion drawings or photographs, depending on when we're talking about. And That would be like if someone was trying to understand, like, I'm doing a play and I have a character named Melinda from 2025. And I want to know what she's wearing, what she would wear. Let me open up Vogue.
00:35:28
Speaker
Like, No. The haute couture collection of Melinda's regular life. yeah exactly like i wish but like you know so when you're approaching a project like this where you have real people that are like lower class middle class like whatever Those resources are useful in understanding certain things about that time period. And because a lot of times, you know, people will try to imitate high fashion on their budget. Obviously, that's a thing that people have always done. But yeah.
00:36:07
Speaker
Finding real, you know, photographs or pieces of clothing or like whatever that real people wore for real things in their everyday life is very different yeah than, you know, the the like collection of like Harper's Bazaar covers from the 1800s. Like those are fun. I love those. They don't tell the whole story of a society. They tell one story. Yeah. It's the ideal versus the the real Yeah. And I always am so... like Whenever I see something like this movie that's so nitty gritty, I'm like, okay, what was the research? Where did you get it? Where can I get it? I need it. What do I have to do to get these things? like Give me the coffee table book that has all of the research and all of the background. Show me all of the stories. That's what I want. Yeah, don't just show me the finished like built. I want to see that too, but like show me all of the lead up. Yeah. like i'll
00:37:03
Speaker
I'm more likely... ah now if I'm trying to collect research books, like I want to collect books that are just like historical photographs. Yeah. Because even that, like obviously people are in the past are, you know, going to be more aware that their picture is being taken. And so they're going to be more intentional about what they're wearing, but um it's way more real than like a fashion drawing. And yeah those kinds of things are so valuable. Yeah. And you still hit some pitfalls. So it depends on like yeah whose photographs you're looking at for sure. But it's like looking at people's old family photographs where it's like it's so many generations that you don't even know who that was is like that's the stuff because it's like that's just a regular guy, a regular gal living their life with the conditions of the world actually affecting them and their clothing and like the conditions of the world affecting what clothing they can have and what
00:37:57
Speaker
they're going to spend their money on and spend all of their focus on keeping in good condition so that they can have it for a really long time. I love all of that information. And like, I think that that shows up a lot, especially in the, I like mentioned, you know, like the sweaters, but like, that's not something that you're going to see very much in like a fashion oriented thing, but like how many sweaters do we all have and wear all the time? Like, and it's something that you could make yourself at home and express like an individuality through like those choices of like colors and textures and pattern and stuff that you can, you know, like there's, so
00:38:40
Speaker
Certainly stuff that we've all like made for ourselves that you're like, well, I don't know if anybody else in the world would like this, but if I want to make it and I'm going to wear it. And people have always been like that. 100%. And it's also like also down to the scarcity of what you have. Like, okay, well, I have all this yarn that I was like super enthused about, but I'm not really enthused about that project anymore. But I need a sweater and I need it to be warm or I need to make a sweater for someone as a gift.
00:39:04
Speaker
Well, here we go. And that determines how you make what you make sometimes. I just, literally all of these little stories that are hidden away in little pockets. I love, I love it. And then. Fold it in your apron like that knife.
00:39:16
Speaker
did Yeah. Just, just like that knife. And then we have the, the opposite, which is our creatures.
Creature Design and Symbolism in Colors
00:39:25
Speaker
And our creatures go from little to very big, little, little fairies. And then we have, my God, the fawn.
00:39:34
Speaker
And the pale man. Both played by Doug Jones. He played two characters. and Doug Jones. I feel like we could just do an episode about him and all of the creatures that he's embodied and the costumes and things that he's worn in his career. Because he is used to makeups like this. This kind of application process. I believe that the fawn took like five hours to apply.
00:39:58
Speaker
Yeah. And what I love is that it's like silicone or latex, you know, on the face, like mask, and then all of these different things applied. And then he just like steps into like little costume bits. And then he's on this like stilts and like all of him is covered except for like the knee down, which is in like neon green for for green screen to make his legs look a certain way. I just like love seeing those pictures of just like 98% in costume and green screen right here. Oh, it's so funny. It's so funny. And like what an insight because it's like you've built this incredible costume.
00:40:37
Speaker
But we just need this for the computer generated. I know. Practical as hell. And I think I read that he said that in terms of like creature costumes that he's worn, this was like one of the more comfortable because it was in so many pieces that he had more like the weight distribution was more even instead of like all of it being like anchored on like the shoulders or something. Yeah. um So I guess it, you know, wasn't a terrible ah experience for him, which is good. um i wasn't really like conscious of it.
00:41:09
Speaker
Until partway through the movie when I like read something and I was like, oh, and then I started paying more attention that and maybe you did notice this and you're going to be like, yeah, it was really obvious. but the You know me. Harsh, harsh words only. my Oh, my gosh. Just so punishing in your words. um The the fawn gets like.
00:41:33
Speaker
gradually ah like less decrepit in his appearance throughout the movie. Like he he gets gets like cleaned up. I don't know what other way to describe it but I didn't notice it at first. And then when I read that, I like watched it the rest of the movie and was like paying attention to it. And um yeah, it was true. it was not a lie. i did not notice that consciously, but I think just like my memories of watching it the first time are like the impressions that it leaves you with. Right. And The fawn is such an unsettling character. And there are so many things that make him unsettling. Part of it is Doug Jones' performance because he's like trying to be kind of like obsequious and like, oh, my lady. But then he's like a little bit like, I know much more than you do and you need to do what I say. Like there's a darkness – And he looks, this like costume looks very like wooden, like his flesh is like wood. um And he has all of these like scarred markings like cut in that are like sigils all over his body.
00:42:37
Speaker
and there's just this brutality to him, right? Like you think of the fawn from the Chronicles of Narnia and anytime anybody's done that kind of a fawn, which is more like a Grecian version of a fawn with like ruddy cheeks, you know, like a a silly, sweet little person. It's like ah Fantasia compared to this guy. Yes, 100%. Like this is very, like his fingers are too long. um Like his horns are very wide and imposing and like his eyes...
00:43:05
Speaker
are like a sheep's eyes, which sheep's eyes are kind of crazy. And like, and his face is like really flat. It's not like human yeah face. Yeah. Yeah. His forehead and his nose like are on the same plane and there is this animalistic alienness to him. And so with, I did not notice the, the being less decrepit, being less clean on my first watch. And I didn't consciously on this one, but I did recognized that the worse it gets for Ophelia, the better it is for him, which always made me feel like he and the pale man are like, like one in the same or two sides of the same coin kind of, yeah because it's like one thing is like, I'm going to get you to this place. And then the other one is like the punishment, but they're like the same thing. It's just unsettling. Yeah. There's something about him throughout the movie that you're sort of like, should she be doing these tasks? Like, is this actually going to lead to somewhere good or is she like somehow going to be like some reveal of like a trick at the end, which like becomes, it gets very close to that where you are like, she's very suspicious of him in the end. In fact, like rejects what he's offering because it would mean like, basically killing her baby brother. um and it's like when that happens, I was sort of like, yeah, i knew i knew there was something about this guy that was dark. Something's not right. Yeah, right. which And then of course, it's like, oh, that was the final test and you passed by not letting me murder your brother. And you're like, yay. And it's like when in those interviews with Del Toro, he talks about that was the thing that he told her is that like you have to
00:44:50
Speaker
come back without basically like mortality having changed your soul or something something like that. And so mortality, it's like, what does that mean? It probably means like the selfishness of mortal, you know what I mean? And so it's like she does the least selfish thing. So you can like kind of look at his character in so many ways where he's like, this is how I get you back to the kingdom and we're going to do it.
00:45:09
Speaker
But what I kind of love about the Pale Man and the Fawn is that the two of them are the two color palettes. Side by side. So the pale man, he kind of like has this like sickly version of the uterine like color, the warmth, the blood. Yeah, his fingers. Yeah, his fingers that go tipped into black. and like yeah But there's the blood, the redness. And like every time he's shot, it's very warm.
00:45:35
Speaker
And then the fawn is always shot in very cool colors until he's in the the fan the fantasy palace at the very end. And then he's in warmth. But like the pale man is – the way that they did his paleness is like he's like sallow skinned where it's like nasty sour milk where there's like a yellowness to him. Waxy. And so it's pretty amazing how like the warm palate is all around him and part of him. But he's still so just like tied into this – coolness that the rest of the world has. His i character, I felt like, was a strong indictment of Catholicism.
00:46:17
Speaker
Just the way that he... So he's... so he's um He's like wasting away in a room that is filled with delicious, like succulent food because what he wants to eat is children. Yeah. Like he doesn't, he's sitting at a table, like it sort of in like a, you know, stasis, like of all of this, like beautiful feast is sitting in front of him, but it's not what he wants. What he wants is to consume children. so
00:46:50
Speaker
um when When Ophelia goes into this room, her task is to like go past him and like get ah this like dagger out of like a keyhole with the gold key. And she's instructed specifically, don't eat the food. like Don't do it.
00:47:08
Speaker
Bad, bad time. And the way the way that... like Because, of course, she eats a grape, you know, who among us. But... um That is like the permission now is that she can be eaten by...
00:47:22
Speaker
the pale man because she's, you know, quote, like sinned, I felt like was sort of the message and sort of it that it's like, then therefore anything horrible could happen to you now because you have committed this yeah like sin. And I felt like that whole thing was just this like swirl of Catholic trauma. Oh yeah. Where it's just like you did something natural and human and you will be punished like with your worst nightmares for it. Yeah. but And specifically by a creature who seems to take great pleasure in torturing and killing you.
00:48:05
Speaker
Yes. Like he could eat all that food. Not gonna. He wants to kill you specifically. And I think it's also like kind of an indictment on this sort of like the the wealth and opulence of the Catholic church. But what they actually like want is to destroy people. I mean, that seems to be the message to me.
00:48:27
Speaker
i mean, i feel like Del Toro will say it himself those interviews. And like he's it's there's so many levels to this that it's like, it's so funny how I choose to watch things before getting in front of a mic with you. watch it and then I have like 20 minutes in between. So I haven't like absorbed or really like done the deep thinking. And so it's like, there's so much depth to this. And this is an example of beautiful collaboration because it's just like,
00:49:00
Speaker
all of the depth that del Toro put into the story and put into what things represent and how then creature designers and other designers, ah cinematographers, like how everybody else has like zeroed in on that and has like really made these different stories have even more depth visually. It's just like, this is one of those movies to watch and give it a break.
00:49:27
Speaker
And maybe watch it again in increments to like yeah try to like absorb parts of it and to see like even track one character throughout the whole thing and see how they change. um Because it's just it's a beautiful example of storytelling, I think. And like bums you the fuck out. Like I just so sad. And like you're supposed to be happy for Ophelia at the end because she she did it.
00:49:56
Speaker
Yeah, she made it back to the palace, whatever. But i don't like I don't feel that way because... um every other character is left with this like horrible mess at this mill where, um, you know, Carmen's dead. Ophelia is dead. ah a ton of these like freedom fighters that have been, you know, railing against the fascist regime are like dead. um
00:50:33
Speaker
The captain, thank god dies. oh and dies in the best. loneliest, most horrible way. Tell my son, no, he won't even know your name. um Chef kiss. But it's like, even that is sort of like, thank God, but it's, um you know, I think it's like, I don't, I don't know that much about the history of Spain going to be so real. ah But I, I do know that this was not the like end of that political regime. No. It's sort like live to fight another day, question mark? Yeah. Live to fight another day and also like remember the innocence, I guess. Like remember the the innocence that
00:51:22
Speaker
can exist without this regime, the innocence that is being affected by this regime, the innocence is being lost. Ophelia is a physical representation of that. It's not a memory because like everybody else around her is adults. She doesn't have any other children.
00:51:37
Speaker
and everybody else is like, the conversation that she has with Mercedes is like, do you believe in fairies? And she's like, I used to She doesn't try to like crush Ophelia, but she's like, no.
00:51:47
Speaker
Like I've lost that. But that's that's a memory to her. But Ophelia is like in it now. She is that that thing that you think you're protecting, that you're fighting for, right? And she's not an ideal. She's a person.
00:52:01
Speaker
And then she's lost. But what's left behind is her brother. And it's like, okay, well, that's the next generation that you can try to preserve and protect and make a better world for like there's just yeah but even like to do that you have to like to to to make any of that happen for that baby is like basically you have to um erase like where he came from because where he came from is so bad it's so bad that you have to like Yeah, erase and kill that world. Yeah, for them to live in a different one. and I and like appreciate the message because i think that people um don't want to necessarily like accept the fact that like,
00:52:45
Speaker
it's not going to radically change things to say, you know, like, well, we're going to tell him that his dad was like a bad guy and not to be a bad guy. And it's like, no, you can't like mess around with this fascist yeah shit. Like you have to eradicate it. That is the only way. loved that. Then the final image we get is this little flower blossoming off of a dead tree.
00:53:12
Speaker
and it's like, you can have something bloom from that, but the conditions have to be right. And so it's just like, and maybe the conditions are some sacrifice and some, all of these different things. Like, that's what I'm talking about is there's so much depth in this. And like the first time I watched it, I felt like it washed over me because I was so overwhelmed by the design, the creature designs and like that part. And also the way that I entered this movie, the first time I saw it was like a fantasy Lord of the Rings, horror, horror, horror. And it's like, no, no, no, no this is
00:53:46
Speaker
This is a different way of telling a story that is fantastical. And ah love it. Like, it's a, it Del Toro is dark fantasy. And like, he is definitely exploring. I mean, so so do other fantasy authors, Tolkien, of course. But like, exploring real shit and like real trauma and not even trying to make like a happy ever after, there's always a, well, you know, yeah like.
00:54:17
Speaker
It costs something even you it. Yeah, costs a lot. And like, if there's a happiness, it's maybe for a moment, you know? Like there's just like so much. Or as fragile, it has to be yeah protected. Like it's not just going to happen. And like the protected is going to be this like bloody, like.
00:54:36
Speaker
in the mud And that's another thing that I really love about this movie is that anything that is pristine is only pristine for a little while. And the most of the things that we see that are pristine are only specific people. That's always a thing.
00:54:52
Speaker
that is like the shortcut to making something not feel real for me is when everyone, i mean, we said this in different words, but like when everyone is only pristine, but it's like when we're talking about like dirtiness, like we're getting like mud mushed into costumes. It's not just, yeah Oh, it's rumped. It's actually gross. Yeah. There's like just texture of like, the you know, and it's like,
00:55:20
Speaker
I kind of love that. Like, I feel like people are so afraid of seeing costume as something that is a tool. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like where it's not always. I get it it. It doesn't just have to be saving private Ryan where you're like diving in the dirt, like rolling in the trenches. You can be a child who's rolling in the trenches and it's not like a cutesy. Oh, I tripped and fell. There's a streak of dirt on my clothes.
00:55:45
Speaker
there's a commitment there. I think that's what I'm leaning forward is the ability to have this commitment to like really trashing the shit that you've built. Really having that, like I, I just distressing you know, beautifully out of it.
00:56:00
Speaker
Pin tucked, delicate cotton. And then we're climbing under a tree through the mud. Sorry. Putting that on a child who is actually a child and just going like, go ham kiddo. you Roll down that hill.
00:56:15
Speaker
i I mean, I feel like I'm not hitting all the things that I want to say about this, but I definitely do recommend watching this. And then over time, looking back at it, because this is one of those that you want to spend time relishing yeah and dissecting. And like it is it is I'll say it again, such a great example of collaborative like collaborative skills coming together to create something that is otherworldly and leaves a heavy impression on you.
00:56:46
Speaker
And then like you go and you look back and you're like, oh, but then there are all these other regular people. Let me look at those regular people and see what they're doing. Like every watch will give you like a new thing to focus on. and Yeah, you can follow different threads throughout. Yeah, and that's just incredible costume opportunity and costume work. to be able to have all these different layers that you might not notice the first time, but everything is deliberate.
00:57:11
Speaker
Good movie. Good And definitely like, you know, make yourself a blanket for it or wrap yourself up in a burrito blankets because. Ouch.
00:57:24
Speaker
Do get, um what is it ah From like the big bang theory, get a warm beverage. Yes.
00:57:33
Speaker
yes i Can you imagine like who who's the person who ever thought of making beverages warm in human history? What a visionary. Can you imagine?
00:57:43
Speaker
who Thanks a lot. Thanks for your service. Like people were just drinking beverage whatever temperature they could before that. They weren't even thinking about water came from a river.
00:57:54
Speaker
Cold.
00:57:58
Speaker
and Anyway, i might have to edit that out. That was pure nonsense. I fucking love it Human history, the scope of it Just people take these things for granted. That's all i'm saying. 100%. I'm taking it for granted. I've got a big old mug of warm drink for myself over here. I'm about to go get one. Oh, yes, you are. Because it's winter. Because it's December, as we were discussing before we started. um So next time is our last episode for fantasy.
00:58:31
Speaker
Wild. I know. And I think that ah I think we have a a doozy. i think we have we have a situation coming up that people will be like, oh, I thought that maybe you guys just never heard of the most famous fantasy movies in modern history. And that's why you didn't cover it so far. We thought that you were just stupid.
00:58:53
Speaker
This is my shit. This is my I think you should tell us what movie or movies yeah as a hint. Not one, not two, but three. We're doing the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Peto Jackson, which as of this recording, ah early December, they will be re-releasing the extended versions into theaters January, 2026.
00:59:19
Speaker
I don't know. I'm tempted. Will you be seated a, Oh God. I can't remember who coined that name.
00:59:30
Speaker
I'm sad, but like, I am very tempted because I did already do this. And I already told you this before record a long, long time ago, they did this and it might've just been one theater that just decided to do it. But one theater in Santa Cruz released the extended editions like way back in the 2000s. And i went and I did that 12 hour.
00:59:49
Speaker
watch through and it was salute you. bonkers it's like by the end of it you're insane because watching thesetin ofversions in your house is one thing but watching them hundred miles away from where you live like i without warmer coziiness Just sitting in a movie theater seat. Yeah. like I've never watched all of the extended versions. I've watched all three theatrical cuts once in one day. that was... I felt crazy enough then. That's like six less hours of movie. Yes, it is. Which is crazy.
01:00:25
Speaker
I... don't know which to recommend to you because like of course i'm an extended versions girly i'm looking at them right now from where i'm sat i believe i have at various points watched the extended versions but um i mean i've seen these movies many times me too dude but this is gonna be the first time that i'm actually gonna watch it and like take note about it yeah of deliberate things like there are certain costumes that of course i can talk about that are like the meme-ified version of like Did you know that when Aragorn kicks the helmet, Viggo Mortensen actually broke two his toes? That scream was the one take that was the most accurate. If I read another interesting movie facts listicle clickbait and it has that fact on it, I don't know what I'm going to do.
01:01:13
Speaker
ah It's so funny how true it is, though. It's like a gauntlet that we all have to go through where we are that person or we have been near that person. Like at this point, to me, it's on par with, um well, actually, the doctor's name is Frankenstein. Like it is on par to me with the pedantic nature of like movie people. Yeah.
01:01:42
Speaker
I'm to be so excited to drop some of those little things too that you'll probably already know. like There's a couple with Christopher Lee that I think are so funny. One, and this is just all extended versions.
01:01:54
Speaker
appendices nonsense but like the one that I'll leave you with today is Christopher Lee was supposed to walk down some stairs but his robes kept getting in the way of his feet and he's just complaining about it he's like this is so stupid the costume is just a piece and Peter Jackson's like well you could do it yesterday o and it's on film Christopher Lee goes it just turns around, goes back up the stairs and does it right.
01:02:22
Speaker
And then he's like interviewed and he's like, mm-hmm. heartbreaking favorite fact about the trilogy is that it was Christopher Lee's dream to play Gandalf. Yeah.
01:02:38
Speaker
And he was too... like He was not physically like able to be considered for the role because he can't like couldn't ride a horse anymore at that point. Yeah, he was... Very, very much older and in a very different place. But he also played Saruman like so well. I mean like he's incredible. Incredible. It makes me But it's like he was so close. Yeah. But it's like also, sir, if I may, here's another factoid. Let me push up my laugh about my nose.
01:03:06
Speaker
When they're stabbing someone and they're talking about the actor and like what they're supposed to sound like when they get stabbed, you know, whatever. Christopher Lee, do you know this one?
01:03:19
Speaker
No. Christopher Lee walks up to Peter Jackson. He goes, that's not what a man sounds like when he gets stabbed. There's no air. It doesn't make any sound. Because famously, Christopher Lee's cousin is the guy who created 007 and basically based 007 off of Christopher Lee. Because Christopher Lee was doing some weird... Not weird. He was doing some...
01:03:40
Speaker
spy shit in world war two espionage that was like that man had a body count and so ops with p jackson the and the appendices when people are talking about this because of course it's like the one-on-ones and people are like yeah so christopher lee just like drop this bit of knowledge the room went quiet and then he just walked away and everybody's like oh Yeah, at that point, he's like, I think the statute of limitations has run out on this spy stuff. Like, we can declassify the documents. And I'm going to tell you right now.
01:04:19
Speaker
But just like to drop that while dressed as Saruman and then to just glide away. It's just some diabolical shit. Like what a gift to his ah fellow actors because they're like, well, I don't have to act afraid of you anymore. yeah it' a I'm right there, man. You could end me with a pen. That's cool. Yeah. So these movies are very important to me because they came out.
01:04:44
Speaker
The first one came out in 2001 and that was ah ah freshman year of high school. Yeah. It was like winter of – it was like the end of 2001, I think. Yeah. So we were baby teenagers. So like very impressionable for me. And like I was – I've always been a fantasy baby. But like very much hit me. And then that became like the holiday tradition to go to the theater to see those movies. yeah And my mom was like, ugh. Oh, got mine too.
01:05:19
Speaker
ah hope that my mom listens to this episode and hears me say that you she has no time or patience for a lot of these things. So ah God bless her. Thank you for your service, ma'am.
01:05:37
Speaker
But like the movie soundtrack, soundtracks are some of the best work. Like the costumes, this this is the time because we we were 14. This is the time where I was starting to be moved by the, the understanding that there's so much work in so many hands that go into this kind of thing. So these are my origin story.
01:06:01
Speaker
For other people, I think it's like Star Wars or Star Trek. For me, it's this. this's This is my origin story. This is what pulled me into costuming. And so I'm excited. yeah And like we're just going to talk about all three. Just oh yeah so people know. Yes. like We're not doing – It's just going to be a freewheeling, free-ranging departure from our normal format ah where we're just going to talk about whatever. –
01:06:30
Speaker
It's it's I think we kind of did that with with Indiana Jones where we just sort of covered the whole like trilogy as opposed to like an individual film. Yeah. But the reasoning behind the two is going to be very different. Indiana Jones. We were both like the one we're like, yeah, we get to talk about so many things. It's so different to watch Indiana Jones and just be like, like what a fun adventure movie yeah or versus like actually like thinking about what's going on. So um this one, I think, yeah, more joyful. Yes.
01:07:00
Speaker
So come along for the ride. Thanks for listening. Yeah, thanks. We'll see you next time.