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A Jewish Wedding (Planning) Story - Abby and Joseph
57 Plays1 year ago
Abby filled me in on her Jewish-Anglican wedding ceremony planning for her upcoming celebration in August 2024 ka''h!
Abby is a political psychology maven, and her YouTube channel is full of really interesting discussion of everything Political Psych with a heavy side of snark. Go listen here: https://www.youtube.com/@PoliticalPsychwithAbby
Don't forget - you can reach me (Rabbi LeighAnn) any time at www.yourohiorabbi.com or everyonesfavoriterabbi.com or rabbileighann.com !
Fill out the contact form there if you'd like to work with me on your wedding. There are SO many options, from Ketubah consulting to ceremony planning. If there's something you have in mind, don't hesitate to ask - I'm here to help!
IG: @yourohiorabbi
Podcast IG: @yourjewishweddingpodcast
Send questions for me to answer on this podcast to:
Hope to see you next time! Remember - there is ALWAYS more learning to do!
<3 Rabbi LeighAnn
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Transcript
Introduction: Buying a Sword for the Wedding
00:00:00
Speaker
And I kind of always wanted to have a sword, but they're really expensive. Okay. The thing is, if we get a sword for our wedding and then just make sure it stays in the family for generations, it eventually becomes an ancestral sword. Oh, absolutely. For sure. Now the sword is, it's also a Jewish sword somehow. Yeah, sure. Why not?
Planning a Jewish or Interfaith Wedding
00:00:24
Speaker
Are you planning a Jewish or interfaith wedding? Are you lost on where to even begin planning the ceremony, let alone finding a rabbi to help you?
00:00:35
Speaker
Well, it doesn't matter whether one of you is Jewish or you're both Jewish. You deserve a guide. So take a deep breath. I promise it will all be okay.
Meet Abby: A Unique Wedding Journey
00:00:47
Speaker
Welcome to Your Jewish Wedding with Rabbi Lian. Here, I can be everyone's rabbi. Yours too. My guests and I will share everything we know to help make your Jewish or interfaith wedding full of tradition and perfectly yours.
00:01:20
Speaker
Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to your Jewish wedding podcast with Rabbi Leon. It's me. And I am here with Abby, who I feel so fortunate got back to me of all things on a Reddit post and is planning a Jewish wedding. Welcome, Abby.
00:01:37
Speaker
Hi, thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. So you told me that you responded to my post. I said, is anybody planning a Jewish wedding or anybody thinking about having one or did have one and wants to tell me about it? And you just started planning yours and you were like, sure. So I love that perspective. Yeah.
00:01:57
Speaker
I'm not super active on social media, but I do check Reddit a lot and I like going on podcasts. Have you been on many podcasts? Yeah, actually at this point I've been on a few. I have a YouTube channel about political psychology and I like to talk about stuff to do with that on podcasts, but this mostly won't be about that. Mostly. Everything's about that to a degree, right? Yeah, to a degree.
00:02:26
Speaker
Yeah. I really like going on podcasts. It's fun. I get to talk and I don't have to write a script like I do for my videos. And I do genuinely feel like we're just having a chat. And I think that's so nice because we didn't have to like schlep
Marriage for Immigration and Love
00:02:40
Speaker
ourselves to a coffee shop or whatever. We're just, you know, we're just sharing about ourselves, which is, which is really cool. So can you tell me a little bit about you and your fiance, whatever you want to about your relationship?
00:02:53
Speaker
The interesting thing is we're actually already married because basically, so I can't go into that much detail about this necessarily, but basically we're in a situation where if we're from two different countries and we knew, okay, we wanna get married and then you wanna do the legal bit as soon as you decide you wanna get married. If you're from two different countries because you have to start the immigration process and everything.
00:03:21
Speaker
But please, if an immigration officer is listening to this, it is a real wedding. We are really married. This is us planning a ceremony that we are doing in front of our friends and family that we are calling a wedding to make things uncomplicated for people, because from the perspective of guests, it basically will be.
00:03:41
Speaker
Listen, that's a very Jewy thing to do. Traditionally, the ceremony has been in lots of pieces over time. And I also want to say that maybe we'll talk about a katuba later on, but the essence of a katuba is promising to do whatever you have to do to take care of one another materially. And so I feel like it's very in the spirit to say, what can we do now to make sure that we're taking care of each other? And that's what you've done.
00:04:08
Speaker
Oh definitely I mean because so my hesitation to get married when I did and I got married about a year and a half ago I'm almost twenty six now when I was twenty four then. Which at least on my in my family is a little bit on the younger side for getting married.
00:04:27
Speaker
And I was like and when we got married I was even like I was between jobs I'm doing much better like professionally now And we were and I was like like kind of want to get married until we're a position to be like financially stable And then I was like oh with the visa situation We're never gonna be financially stable in the same country unless we get married And I was like and I was like
00:04:50
Speaker
I never want to be separated from this person for a long period of time about my now husband. So I was like, yeah, let's get married. That is so simple and so real. I love it. Yeah, yeah. There wasn't some big dramatic proposal or anything. It was just like, realizing like, I can't bear the thought of being separated from you for possibly years at a time.
00:05:13
Speaker
And so you did what you had to do, which I assume turned out to be a pretty easy decision. Yeah, no, it was a pretty easy decision. Yeah. The actual process of getting married was pretty easy, other than that the lady at the marriage office was mean to me about my handwriting.
Challenges at the Marriage Office
00:05:31
Speaker
Annoying. And lots of stuff with that. And like, I have dyslexia. So like, Oh, no. Yeah, like my handwriting is bad, but it's not because I'm not trying. You would think that she would know.
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, and it's like, you're a government official. I feel like you should be understanding about people's disabilities. Okay, when I went to, I'm in the state of Ohio, and when I went to register to be an officiant, it's a pretty intense process in Ohio, and you have to bring your ordination certificate or proof that you're whatever.
00:06:04
Speaker
I went in with my giant diploma and I had at the time two little boys and I had like purple hair and I had just gotten my nose pierced. And I went in and I was like, I'm a rabbi and I'm here to register whatever. And you know, okay, I'm a rabbi. And the lady behind the desk was like looked at me and she was like, are you?
00:06:24
Speaker
Wow, that's awful. Come on, man. Is this like the judgy headquarters of the United States here at these offices? And I guess you need these people, so. Yeah, I don't know. It's really easy to be able to perform marriages in Illinois. You can do the getting ordained online thing.
00:06:43
Speaker
You can in Ohio too, but then you've got to bring all the paperwork and prove that you did it in person. It's pretty intense. It's way less intense here for that. In most states, they're like, hey, if you say you're a minister, we believe you.
00:06:57
Speaker
Yeah, like most of what seems to be the legal bit takes place with the marriage license too. I mean, yeah, Jen, just somebody to sign it. You know, my husband and I got married when I was 22 and he was 24. And of course, everybody thought we were crazy. We have along so well. And you know, I had that same feeling as you, like, I don't want to be separated from him. And I have to say,
00:07:19
Speaker
only paying one rent just also on that level seems like a really good idea. Oh my God. Yeah. No, as a young person, it is so much better to be sharing a one bedroom apartment financially. Like that's, that's not a reason to get married, but it is a bonus financial stability. It's like all this conversation. And then why are we anyway? So, well, I'm happy for my health insurance too, which is a huge savings. I have done at least one other ceremony for a couple who had already been married for health insurance reasons.
00:07:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So basically we got married and then we were like, okay, we're very happy being married, but like we do actually want to have a thing that friends and family can come to, but we knew that we wanted to like be able to spend a long time planning that because, so I'm from the US, specifically the East coast and we live in Chicago and my husband's family is
Wedding Planning Priorities
00:08:16
Speaker
from England.
00:08:17
Speaker
And we both went to college in Scotland. So we've got friends from all over the world so like we sent out save the dates like 10 or 11 months before the wedding because you're like we're like we want people to know you know exactly where and when it's gonna be because they'll have to buy expensive plane tickets and take time off and all this sort of stuff so we wanted to give people a lot of advance warning and we also were like
00:08:43
Speaker
Well, the legal pressure is off. The financial pressure is off. We just want to do it. So we took a while planning things and finding a venue and everything. I was really picky about venues, I'm going to be honest. Were you? What was that priority? What were your priorities?
00:09:05
Speaker
Uh, so it's a couple things. I'm not a snob about many things in life, but like the two things in my life that I am the most snobby about are like design, including interior design and food. You know what? That's your like immediate space. Zag is in all the, all the power to you.
00:09:23
Speaker
Yeah. Um, and so, oh, and then the other thing, which was surprisingly weird and difficult is that a lot of the places we looked at, because we know we want a good food, were restaurants and they were like, Oh yeah, we can accommodate your guest count, which is about a hundred, but not if you have dancing. I'm like, we have to have dancing. And that was important to you. See, I've heard of people who is not important to you. I can't imagine why they would have a venue and say something like no dancing.
00:09:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm like, no, we have to have dancing. And then, and then the other thing is that a lot of the venues have these like, particle board ceilings where I don't know if it's particle board, like the ones that make you feel like you're in a school or a hospital or an office, like that kind of thing. And I was just like, I was just like,
00:10:08
Speaker
I don't want to do that. Yeah, no amount of draping is going to help with this, right? Exactly. My mom and my grandmother were so good about this. They were like, no, choose a really nice venue because then it won't need a lot of enhancements. Smart, smart, smart. So you were like, we want a celebration that all our family and friends can come to. What made you decide that you also wanted a ceremony? Because I feel like you could totally do a party without a ceremony.
00:10:36
Speaker
Yeah, I guess, I don't know. I think it, for us, it felt like we wanted to have a ceremony as part of it, I guess. It just sort of...
00:10:49
Speaker
I don't know. It felt like it needed to be part of it. Like I understand that a lot of people will just have like a wedding, like a party, but I, there were a lot of people who weren't like, even our parents weren't there when we got actually married.
Ceremony for Family and Connection
00:11:06
Speaker
Um, and the thing that's, that's really tough is so the only people who were there were some people we were friends with at the time, but,
00:11:13
Speaker
We had just moved to Chicago. We hadn't made a lot of close friends yet, and we're not really close with any of those people anymore, including the friend who got ordained and married us. So we're very happy with our marriage, but we're not necessarily that happy with our wedding. I mean, I will remember forever our vows and all that, but there wasn't really anyone who we love there, you know?
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, well, and somebody in your field, I think you're always thinking about how much you know about the power of moments that are crafted for a certain purpose with the symbolism. And it's, you know, there's a there's a certain passage you go through when you have that ceremony that you really can't mirror anywhere else if it's important to you.
00:11:58
Speaker
Oh, yeah, no, I totally get that. Like, I'm, I think I had a particular perspective on this, because I'm like, I'm a very progressive person. But I also think that there is value in, you know, tradition and continuing patterns in life, right? You know, and having some of the same, you know, demarcations in your life that you're
00:12:21
Speaker
you know, parents or grandparents had and celebrating holidays and that kind of thing. Because I think it, you know, it gives you connection to the people around you, right? That is so beautifully put, especially the way you said like repeating patterns. I haven't thought of it in exactly that way before. And it's so such a helpful way to structure it because it doesn't put a necessarily like belief onto it. Yeah, yeah. No, and I think it's also nice because it makes you feel like
00:12:49
Speaker
less alone in your experiences in life, you know? So I think that that was really the thing. And it's funny, I was like definitely not one of those people who ever thought in terms of like my dream wedding or anything when I was a kid or even really when I was like a teenager or a young adult, I was like such not a romantic until I met my husband.
00:13:13
Speaker
Yeah, no, he's so much more romantic than I am. So we had a lot of conversations about it and we realized it was something that we both wanted.
00:13:24
Speaker
It was we decided to have a ceremony before we decided to have a Jewish ceremony. Okay, that was my next question. Yeah, we knew that there were certain elements of Jewish tradition we wanted. So my husband's not Jewish. He's like, loosely Anglican, neither of us are very religious, but he grew up
00:13:44
Speaker
going to church sometimes with his grandmother, he likes the hymns, that kind of phone, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I have a sort of similar experience with Judaism there. But I think there was a bit where I was a little bit more attached to certain Jewish, specifically Jewish wedding traditions than he was attached to like
00:14:05
Speaker
specifically Anglican wedding traditions because there didn't seem to be that many of them that he was like even aware of because he hasn't been to that many weddings and also I think that Jewish weddings are you know there's a lot of very specifically Jewish rituals in a way that I haven't been to an Anglican wedding and I don't want to be insensitive but that there don't seem to be necessarily as much
00:14:24
Speaker
Right. Well, I think American culture is sort of based on non-Catholic Christian wedding traditions. And so anything that goes on in a church setting probably is something that we kind of took from there. So it seems kind of generic, whereas the Jewish traditions are very coded, very visibly Jewish.
00:14:42
Speaker
Yeah, and so I was like, I was like, I want to have a hoopa. I want somebody to step on a glass. And I want to dance the horror at our reception. Like that, that was
00:14:59
Speaker
Those are those are far the three most common ones I hear for like, yeah, yeah. And so we were considering though, I mean, you can still do that. If you're getting married by like a justice of the peace, right? Absolutely. Yes. But that did seem a little weird because we were already legally married. Um, no, I see yours. So there's no reason to get a legal authority involved.
00:15:21
Speaker
Right. So you wanted there to be a differentiation even with the officiant. Like, so it would have to be somebody who was not like the ship captain who could do it for anyone anytime. Yeah. Yeah. Although, I mean, yeah, I think that that, that's sort of part of it. And then the thing that I think hit for us isn't, isn't that we wanted a rabbi to do it. It's that there's a specific person who we wanted to do it because, um, so unfortunately right after we got married, like a couple weeks after my grandfather passed away.
00:15:51
Speaker
Oh no. And we were very close. I was very close with my grandfather and he and my grandmother just had like the most beautiful love story and just completely in love to the end. Oh, you're breaking my heart. He had a very good life. He lived to be like 85. Okay, yeah.
00:16:08
Speaker
Yeah. And that was really tough. But at the funeral, I met my grandmother's rabbi who gave just this beautiful eulogy for my grandfather and who had really gotten to know my grandmother. And through what was a really tough set of circumstances, did get to know my family. And Joseph was there at my grandfather's funeral. It was strange because it was the first time that
00:16:37
Speaker
we had seen any of my family as a married couple and it was my grandfather's funeral. So there was a lot of, um, mazel tov also condolences. Right, right. That, uh, the full circle is sort of feeling that, yeah, it was, it was, it was really strange. Um, I mean, it was good that my grandfather and my husband did get to meet before my grandfather passed. Thank God. Yeah. No, thank God.
00:17:02
Speaker
I mean, it was it was tough, though, because my grandfather, he had Parkinson's, so he wasn't totally I mean, he was he was mostly mentally there at the end, but he would drift off. And he was always someone who like he really loved to play tennis and go swimming and go for bike rides. And he couldn't really do that at the end. He could almost right until the end. Like he was doing that probably until he was like 80, but not not at the very end. Anyway, but the rabbi, my grandmother's rabbi, she's really, really good. And so we were like,
00:17:32
Speaker
I asked my grandmother, oh, do you think she would do it? And she said she would, and she's been really nice through the whole process and has been really nice about, she's a, you know, she's a progressive rabbi, but my grandmother is more religious than I am, which isn't tough because I'm really not very religious.
00:17:54
Speaker
So the rabbi did a eulogy and you liked the eulogy and you immediately were like, well, this should translate pretty well to a wedding also. Well, I mean, not immediately, no. My immediate thing was like that I was crying because it was beautiful and sad and my grandfather was dead. Right. But I assume she did the thing where she helped you see him as he remembered him, like in his best possible moment.
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah, although that wasn't tough. He was an uncomplicatedly good man. And I've been to the funerals for complicated people and those seem tougher to do. Sure. But I think what rabbis don't talk about often is that pretty much no matter what life cycle event you're working on, whether it's a baby naming or a bat mitzvah or a wedding or a funeral,
00:18:48
Speaker
It's all kind of the same gig, because you're learning about that person and reminding everybody why they care about that person. Yeah. No, I mean, it was also good because the rabbi knew my grandfather, which was good. And it was also nice that we don't know this rabbi super well, but she wasn't just meeting us for stuff to do with the wedding.
00:19:12
Speaker
And so yeah, so you have that connection and that's really yeah, we had that connection I think was was important to us. Do you think you would have sought a rabbi if you hadn't sort of run into her? Maybe I don't know. I think before I had the idea of her and actually we were looking pretty seriously like for other officiant options before I was like,
00:19:33
Speaker
Maybe we should just have her do it. I think we were mostly looking at people who do like explicitly interfaith ceremonies and like Justices of the Peace.
00:19:45
Speaker
because we also wanted to make sure that the rabbi we were working with would be able to incorporate, Joseph wants some hymns because that's what he has from his tradition. And he's like, yeah, we'll just do Old Testament ones. Those will be mostly universal to everyone there.
Interfaith Ceremony Considerations
00:20:04
Speaker
Not quite everyone. I think there's some people who aren't from Abrahamic religions at all, but most of the family.
00:20:14
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, that's awesome. We just need to find a rabbi who's chill with that. And the rabbi, my grandmother's rabbi is of course completely fine with that, which is nice. Did you ask her that explicitly? Yeah, we did ask her that explicitly. Was it like a nervous thing for you to ask her? Yeah, no, I mean, it was a little bit nerve wracking. Yeah, I mean,
00:20:41
Speaker
this is it wasn't as nerve wracking because we were like because we knew we definitely wanted this element and we knew that if she said no to it it wouldn't like we wouldn't have a big rift it would just be like okay you're not our officiant that's such a wonderful attitude yeah what was a little bit more nerve wracking is actually the conversation we had with her two days ago which actually went fine and she was great about everything but she had sent us over um
00:21:07
Speaker
like the ceremony and the set of prayers and sayings and all those sorts of things. And there were two things, sort of big things that we wanted her to modify a little bit, both of which were a little tough, both of which I thought might be a little tough to talk about, but she was actually super chill about all of it. The first one was that
00:21:33
Speaker
We wanted it to be a little bit less religious and a little bit less God as creator.
00:21:41
Speaker
Like we're still having some mentions of God and blessings and stuff in there, but a little bit less religious than the thing she had originally sent us. And then the other one is there were a lot of instances, not like a ton, but there were a fair amount of instances within the ceremony where the word Israel is used to refer to like basically the Jewish people.
00:22:08
Speaker
Um, and like, I understand that, um, my husband understands that because we've had like conversations about it and everything, but, um, I didn't want anyone to have any confusion about any connection to the modern state of Israel.
00:22:28
Speaker
Yeah. And you don't want to have to go into like a Bible study to explain to people why that word is used, right? Like you don't have time for that. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Um, yeah. Um, and also there was a bit where it was in the, the vows a little bit and I was like, okay, well let's not have that necessarily in the vows because my husband's
00:22:49
Speaker
And he's not converting. I don't want him to convert or anything. So how did you work that? Are you neither of you saying the traditional vows? The rabbi modified them like very lightly to basically make it so that it's like within keeping of like, I think Jewish tradition and the laws of Moses and Miriam, I think is the word. Cool. Oh, wow. She's cool.
00:23:16
Speaker
I have to tell you like we went to rabbinical school for at least five years. We have thousands of times more Hebrew skills than most of the time we will ever ever use. So if anybody's scared of asking their rabbi to modify a prayer and like afraid that she won't be willing to do it or won't be able to do it, she will probably be absolutely psyched that anybody even knew that was a possibility. So well done you.
00:23:44
Speaker
Yeah, and we're just doing our vows. We're having a bit of Hebrew, but we are just doing our vows in English because neither of us speak Hebrew. And it's very important to us that we be able to completely understand what we're saying for our vows. Yeah, and it's very nice that she gave you that option, you know, because I've had couples who it's really important to them to say it in Hebrew and feel weird saying it in English. And so just for a rabbi who recognizes that you might have, you know, you might want to say one but not the other, like she sounds very attentive.
00:24:13
Speaker
Yeah, she's been really good about all that stuff. It's been so lovely. Wow. Awesome. So she sent you the ceremony first and had you look over it? Yeah, we had an initial meeting and then she sent us the ceremony and we looked it over and then we had another meeting.
00:24:34
Speaker
Cool. So were there any, I know that you said that there were some must haves at the beginning. Like you said that you wanted a chuppah and you wanted to smash the glass and you wanted to dance the hora. Yeah. In terms of like, you knew you wanted a Jewish ceremony because certain parts were important to you. Were any of the prayers or anything popping out to you as also something that you found you really wanted? Not necessarily like
00:25:00
Speaker
a ton. Um, there's, I mean, there are definitely, there are some of them that I've seen like in the stuff she sent me where I'm like, I didn't think of that, but I'm glad we're having it. Um, I think there's like a, the seven blessings one that's really beautiful. Um, and then there's one at the very end, a
00:25:20
Speaker
I think it's like a bless you and keep you one, basically. And that one's, it's just sweet. I think it's nice and it's nice to have that. It's sweet. And anybody who grew up going to church at all, I believe that's part of the doxology, like the ending prayer for church. I was also like, that one's great because it'll also make my husband's more observantly Christian grandmother very happy.
00:25:43
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, Jews obviously don't know that, but for Christians, that prayer, you know, it can activate that memory of like feeling holy or feeling, you know, like you've been blessed in some ways. So I love that, especially for interfaith weddings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess that that was, so yeah, I think, so I'm happy with, I think the prayers and stuff that we're going to have, but prayers weren't really a must have for me.
00:26:10
Speaker
Mm-hmm Was there anything that you hadn't considered doing before you spoke with your rabbi and and she? Not I don't want to say convinced you but like she shared something with you that now made you want to be like, oh definitely we're doing that yeah, I mean I hadn't thought of the bit where you
00:26:34
Speaker
take a drink out of a cup. I can't remember what that is called. They're kiddish. Yeah, they're kiddish. Yeah, yeah. I hadn't really thought of that necessarily as like part of the ceremony. But when she mentioned it, I was like, yeah, sure, that that seems nice. And she was like, and you can incorporate one or two special cups from your families.
00:26:53
Speaker
And she was even like, and yeah, let's see if we can maybe get one from Joseph's family for this one. It doesn't have to be like a specifically Jewish thing. And I was like, that is so nice. So nice. This is something that Christians by and large don't really understand, but Jews, we like our stuff. Like we have so much stuff, right? There's, you know, kiddushkops, menorahs, like whatever. And like, there's this sort of idea or like sense that everything that's at a special event, like
00:27:22
Speaker
Sucks up the vibes of that event and it's still forever and ever So like literally anything can even become an heirloom if it wasn't already. Oh, yeah No, literally we have we have a plan around that which is okay. So my husband and I are both huge history nerds We were actually both well, we both double majored but one of the major we shared in college was history and
Symbolism of the Wedding Sword
00:27:46
Speaker
We also both used to go to these medieval reenacting feasts when we were in college, and I ran the entertainment for them. Oh my gosh. I can see it now. Yeah. And I kind of always wanted to have a sword, but they're really expensive. And I actually also used to do reenacting sword fighting. I have a sword scar on my left shoulder.
00:28:08
Speaker
Oh, I love that. Yeah. Um, might, might show that off in the wedding dress. It's, it's very light. It's like the best kind of scar you could possibly have because I didn't have to go to the hospital and it's cool. And it was a cool story for sure. Exactly. Um, but we were like,
00:28:25
Speaker
Okay. The thing is, if we get a sword for our wedding and then just make sure it stays in the family for generations, it eventually becomes an ancestral sword. Oh, absolutely. For sure. And I'm sure you guys can dig up so much symbolism and everything around it too, that you can be like, now the sword is, it's also a Jewish sword somehow. Yeah, sure. Why not?
00:28:49
Speaker
I mean, there is this this sort of funny idea of like taking something from the European nobility who of course were like kind of oppressors of both my ancestors because they were Jewish and my husband's ancestors because the nobility oppressed everyone who wasn't nobility and then making it our little joke in our little family heirloom. Like we got you back. Yeah. Yeah. That's a Jewish sentiment also, by the way.
00:29:16
Speaker
it's what? Oh, yeah. I was trying to, side note, I was trying to convince my kids school to do cabaret for the high school musical, even though there's Nazis in it, because I was like, it was written by a Jewish guy, the whole thing is a middle finger to the whole situation. But nobody seems to think that that's going to be navigable. So
00:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, but I can relate. There's definitely a certain level of, like, of, um, of f*** you. Oh, sure. Oh, yeah. And that, like, Mel Brooks, too, like, anything that, you know, is just, like, he, and I think he said something about how the only thing that hurts a tyrant is if people laugh at him.
00:29:58
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah. And what was really funny is, so this is a total digression, but I saw blazing saddles for the first time with a friend of mine and a bunch of his friends from a Christian summer camp he used to work at. Okay. I was the only Jewish person there and the bit where the Native Americans start speaking in Yiddish, I'm just laughing my ass off and no one else understands why this is funny.
00:30:24
Speaker
Oh my gosh, that's so good. Right, exactly. It's a very Jewish thing to have an inside joke that's about your own oppression. Well done. Yeah, no, but I mean, there's also a certain amount of
00:30:38
Speaker
especially as someone who's fairly left-wing and very involved in politics and who does political stuff very publicly, there's a certain amount of like, well, these people want me dead anyway. So I might as well say what I want to say. Oh, exactly. Because that's the point. That's why they wanted you gone, is so that you couldn't do this. So now you kind of have an obligation.
00:31:00
Speaker
And there's a certain amount of that that was like also made me like, so my husband is more politically radical than I am.
00:31:10
Speaker
there was a certain amount of like, well, the Nazis want me dead anyway, might as well marry a communist, right? Double down, right? Yeah, exactly. It's like, and yeah, no, we play this morbid little game when we, when we see a new horrible right wing reactionary of which of us do they want dead more. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So funny. We make those jokes in my house too, because I'm also like Polish. And so we talked about how like the Nazis hated, you know, me double.
00:31:37
Speaker
Yeah. It's like two subhuman categories in one, like imagine. Before I get to politics, because I am going to ask you and whatever, was there any like choreography that you decided to use from a traditional Jewish ceremony?
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, we haven't done like the where everyone's going to stand stuff yet, really, like circling or like also the ring on the index finger or the lifting of the veil, anything like that.
00:32:10
Speaker
Um, so I don't think we're going to do circling. I don't really vibe with lifting of the veil. I don't know why it's just, it's not something that feels like what I want. Um, well juice is actually lowering. I misspoke. It's like lowering the veil, which is also, there's all kinds of, you know, there's all kinds of layers of interpretation of that. And if people feel that it's at all like anti-feminist or like uncomfortable in that way, like I'm always like, then fine, cut it. I don't care.
00:32:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you would know the theology of it and the history of it better than I would, but it did always feel a little bit that way to me.
00:32:47
Speaker
So I think I might wear a veil, but it's staying behind. It's not going on my face at any point. I should tell you, I think it's such a misconception because people think that these Jewish wedding traditions are super holy or they are theological in some way. But really, most of this stuff is just stuff we picked up from our non-Jewish neighbors because that was the wedding fashion.
00:33:10
Speaker
Yeah. The thing that's weird is, um, so I was looking up where the horror came from like last week and apparently the song is, I don't, this seems wrong, but apparently the song is from like the twenties. Oh, like what? The Hava Nagila song? Yeah, I guess. So it must be the specific song because the dance has to be older, right? I mean, people dancing in a circle, I feel like that's like half the cultures in the world.
00:33:35
Speaker
Right? You feel like it would be, but it's... I don't know. Let me listen. You went to Shul and heard like, Adon Olam, whatever, right? Like, if you think about those tunes, a lot of them sound really like hymnal, right? Yeah. Although I didn't like go to Temple regularly as a kid. I went sometimes and I never went to Hebrew school, so... I mean, there are parts of like the blessing after meals that were fairly certain like, were tavern songs.
00:34:02
Speaker
because it just sounds like you would swing a beer mug to me. You know, like it, Jews pick up stuff from all around us. And of course it makes sense that we would, you know, be doing that kind of thing. So. Oh yeah. No, I mean, the picking up of things, like there's a non, there's always a chance, right? That like another Jewish person is going to go to my wedding and hear one of the Old Testament hymns they like and be like,
00:34:26
Speaker
I've decided this is a Jewish thing now. I mean, why not? Honestly, if it works for both, it's so much the better, because we are going to have more and more people really adopting Jewish-ish weddings for interfaith because more and more people are marrying non-Jewish people. Yeah, although there was this horrible thing where, so my husband was telling me,
00:34:52
Speaker
which hymns he wanted, and I just wanted to listen to them first, right? Sure. And there are two of them and they're both lovely and very unobjectionable. And one of them is like a very English hymn. I can't remember exactly what it is. But the important thing is the lyrics are completely like just Old Testament completely on and not even like the stuff in the Old Testament that might be objectionable, like completely unobjectionable.
00:35:17
Speaker
Um, and, uh, I listened to this recording of it on YouTube and it was very lovely, but I looked, I, I never look at YouTube comments, but you know, sometimes it shows you the first comment. I look at it on my own channel, but sometimes it shows it to you, uh, under the video. And it was like some sort of like, the first comment under this like lovely, unobjectionable him was some sort of like horrible, great replacement racist thing. Oh no. Oh, how terrible.
00:35:47
Speaker
That is terrible, isn't it? That was, they were saying that's what the hymn was about? No, no, they were saying that like, no, it was like, uh, all these people come in here. They don't want to let us sing this hymn. And it's like, that's insane. Like no one is stopping you. It was even more hateful than that, but I don't remember exactly what it said. Okay. Is this, this is just me being curious. Do the hymns have like old, oldish English words?
00:36:14
Speaker
I don't know if this one does. Not very many, I don't think. Like it's okay because when I think about Anglican weddings, all right, I'm like a Regency romance fan, okay? Like I love whatever. Yeah. I don't know what it was about whenever there was a wedding in like a movie or a book that I watched. The line, and thereto I pledge thee my troth,
00:36:35
Speaker
Yeah. Like always got me. And I think it's like that feeling of something that's like much older than you that you're pulling forward, you know? Oh, yeah, no, I get that. So that's even present Anglican stuff, I think, you know? Oh, yeah, no, there totally is. And I like that that sort of sense of old things. But of course, like, the past was mostly a terrible place, right? So you have to be careful about what you pull forward.
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, although you know Jews are always talking about the past You know as if it's miraculous that we survived because we did but I think we forget that it's miraculous that most people survived the past Yeah, no, I mean there are some uniquely terrible things, but the past was awful for just about everything right right right and now it's like man Are we gonna continue to evolve or are we just gonna like poop out here because everything's so easy for us now?
Modern Conveniences vs. Historical Traditions
00:37:23
Speaker
I don't know. I think, I think easy is good. Um, it's comfortable for sure. I'm feeling, I'm feeling pretty good. I mean, you know, I benefited from, um, for example, a cesarean section. That's why I'm still here. Right. Oh, I was, I was born via C-section. I think my mom and I might've both died if there hadn't been one.
00:37:40
Speaker
Yeah, and a lot of women did, so whatever. So you told me that you guys wanted to minimize the language about God as creator and also modify mentions of Israel.
00:37:58
Speaker
Is there anything else? I don't wanna say those were political things because those are maybe more like ideological things. But in terms of your education and expertise in like history and politics, did that affect your ceremony planning in any other way?
00:38:14
Speaker
Yeah, so I would say partially the ceremony, but partially the wedding overall.
Creating Social Bonds Through Celebration
00:38:20
Speaker
I really wanted to be able to bring people together and bring the people who are important to us together. Because a lot of what I study, a lot of what I talk about has to do with social bonds.
00:38:36
Speaker
And so I think like establishing that community that included both of us and our families and our friends was really important to me. Wow. And so like that's part of the reason where it's like, you know, we're really prioritizing like we want it to be not that difficult, minimal difficulty for people to get to the wedding.
00:39:01
Speaker
and like making sure it's a date where people can come and like that sort of thing because what's really important to us is making sure that like the guests have a good time where they can sort of bond if that makes sense. So everything around like as part of your your ceremony and celebration is intentional in that way?
00:39:20
Speaker
Yeah, I would say so. And I mean, I think most weddings are intentional in that way. I think I'm maybe just thinking about it a little bit more analytically. Honestly, I mean, yes, obviously you are because you are an intellectual and you're a professional in that field. But I think that, and not to knock the wedding industry, right? Because I think it's wonderful that people are having so many choices and everything. But I do think that
00:39:43
Speaker
you know, before we started recording, we were talking about social media. And I think that the wedding industry on social media has really made the vibe of contemporary wedding planning. Like it's your day to sparkle and shine. And so actually the feeling a lot of people plan their wedding with is quite the opposite of what you were just saying. Yeah, which is, which is so not me. It's like, I mean, I'm going to wear a sparkly dress. It's going to be dramatic, but, um,
00:40:13
Speaker
But no, it's, you know, for me, it's more about the bringing together than it is about just like the two individuals. Although obviously, I mean, the person I'm marrying is the most important part, right? I'm already married to him though.
00:40:32
Speaker
What I was going to say is, you know, but I do think it's really important to make sure your guests have a good time and they're able to bond. I was going to say one other thing we've done that we're planning on doing to encourage people to actually really interact and gel with each other is we're going to try and get people to minimize their use of phones and we're getting instant cameras for the guests to take pictures of each other.
00:40:57
Speaker
Amazing. I love that so much. So speaking of other people, are you incorporating any friends, family members, whatever into the ceremony? Or I guess even the Kachuba as well. So for the ceremony, we're both being walked down the aisle by both of our parents. Okay. Did your fiance have any issue with that? Like, did he have any trouble wrapping his head around that?
00:41:22
Speaker
What, for my husband? I'm sorry, your husband. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. His parents are super aggressively feminist. They're good with it. Love that. Yeah, no, they're great. And my parents are good with that too. I mean, my parents are divorced, but they can stand next to each other for a little while. It'll be fine. How wonderful. I love that for you.
00:41:47
Speaker
Yeah. And then my maid of honor is going to be my cousin and Joseph's best man is going to be his brother. And then our ring bearer will be my half brother who's a lot younger than me. Oh, how sweet. And in terms of the ceremony, did anybody want to do kidish or read any translations of anything?
00:42:11
Speaker
So we should talk to people more about this. I mean the wedding is still a while away Yeah, I don't think so necessarily But we will we will talk to people about that Yeah, I mean but it is important for us to like to have those people there and then in terms of the katuba signing and
00:42:32
Speaker
we're in this interesting position where the rabbi is like, okay, let's try and get two Jewish people you aren't related to. And I'm like, okay, one's obvious, like my, like one of my best friends from childhood, he's Jewish, I was just in his wedding like two weekends ago. So yeah, sure, he's one of the signers. But the other one, it's like,
00:42:59
Speaker
It's actually kind of weird because I think partially because we went to college in Scotland rather than somewhere where there's like more Jews, we don't have that that many Jewish friends. Right. Right.
00:43:15
Speaker
Yeah, but you're figuring it out. But the rabbi was nice because she was like, you can have a non-Jewish friend do it if that feels good to you. The important thing is don't have them be a family member because that's it. Yes, that is the most important thing, which I think is really cool because a lot of times your friends can fall by the wayside in terms of doing stuff for your ceremony. And this is somebody who definitely can't be a family member, so it's a way to honor those friends. Yeah.
00:43:43
Speaker
Something I would suggest is if you want like to do the Jewish person, like the two Jewish people thing, but you're not super close to the other Jewish person you ask, like you could just always have two additional people that you are close to who aren't Jewish. Yeah, no, we're gonna figure it out. It's not like an issue. It's just like there's another person we're incorporating in and then we'll figure out what the other person is, who the other person is.
00:44:07
Speaker
But I was going to say that, yeah, no, and we have decided that I think we want to have a katuba because it's such a pretty thing and it's like a nice memento of your wedding that's not just like a picture of you. I don't like looking at pictures of myself. It's another reason I'm not on camera right now.
00:44:29
Speaker
That's why I haven't been to the hairdresser for years. Well, your hair looks great, but thank you. How many hours do you look at yourself in that mirror? My goodness. It doesn't usually take that long for them to do my hair. The other thing too that as a historian that you know is that having that document of your marriage is such an important
Preserving Wedding Memorabilia
00:44:54
Speaker
thing. The one way we're like Mormons,
00:44:56
Speaker
is that we're kind of obsessed with family history, right? Oh, yeah. And I'm not a professional historian or anything. I just have an undergrad history major. OK. Let's gas each other up, OK? As an historian. Thank you. Yeah, what was I going to say? Yeah, no, that whole historical documentation thing is really important to us.
00:45:21
Speaker
And it was wonderful. We were looking through the stuff for my grandparents wedding. We were there like, I guess last weekend, we've been going back and forth to the Boston area where I'm from a lot recently. But I mean, this was because my friend's wedding was recently and he's also from the Boston area.
00:45:44
Speaker
Um, but we were, we were having lunch with my grandmother and we were looking through like the momentos she had saved from her wedding. And it was, it was so sweet and fascinating. Historically, she had saved the bill, like the itemized bill. Oh my gosh. That is what a cool lady to think to do that.
00:46:04
Speaker
Oh, she's awesome. But it was fascinating. It was like, oh, okay, what did this cost in, you know, 19 something. It was $1.27 per plate or something. Yeah. And that was, but that was really fancy at the time, right? For sure. Sorry, go ahead.
00:46:21
Speaker
And they saved the menu too and she was like, I can't believe we had like sheep's brains at our wedding. I don't know why we did that. I mean, there had to have been some bougie reason for it, right? Yeah, I think it must have been like the big deal at the time. I don't know. Apparently, I mean, my grandparents, it's sort of an interesting background, right? Because like, they were sort of like, they were
00:46:48
Speaker
They really, they were very socially mobile during their lifetimes, right? And their wedding was a sort of like, these families have made it now event. And so it was very much like everyone there, we were so impressed with ourselves, we were so happy, we made it, you know. I mean, it's all part of the story, right?
00:47:11
Speaker
Yeah, it is, it is, right? And it wasn't like a showing off thing, but they are still, but my grandmother is still very proud of it, if that makes sense. Oh, absolutely. It makes me think of the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Did you ever watch that on Amazon? Yeah, no, I watched that. Yeah, it opens with her incredibly bougie wedding.
00:47:30
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah. I don't think, I mean, I'm not sure my grandmother's wedding was like quite like that, but I've seen pictures and it was, it was something. It was definitely like, I think that the producers of that show intended it to be exactly what you said about your grandmother's wedding, which is like, this is, we're showing the world like we've, we've made it.
00:47:47
Speaker
And we're okay now, you know, um, which is a very, like, if you think about it, kind of a Jewish thing to do also like diasporic Jews, like just constantly, you know, making it. But, um, speaking of your grandparents, we're talking about money, right? We sort of, sort of talking about money, but not really. So speaking of your grandparents, did have you, um, talked with the rabbi about ways to sort of honor your grandfather as part of the wedding. Yeah. Yeah. We have talked about that a bit. We haven't gone really in depth with it, but we will go a bit more.
00:48:19
Speaker
We're definitely going to find some ways to honor my grandfather and maybe some other people who have who've passed as well. Because I mean, yeah, it was, I think, especially my grandfather, because my grandparents relationship is like,
00:48:34
Speaker
Really, it was just so beautiful. Yeah, that was it. That's it for you. Such a model for you. One of my weddings from last year, the brides brought wedding dresses from the women in their family from like
00:48:50
Speaker
two or three generations before them and put them all on mannequins with the wedding photo. Oh, that's so cute. So when you were talking about the memorabilia from your grandmother's wedding, I was thinking like, whoa, like if you had a bunch of menus or anything. Yeah, well, we're really lucky in that our venue is actually a former library and it has, oh, it's a gorgeous venue.
00:49:15
Speaker
And it has these glass bookcases where you can put family memorabilia and framed photos and stuff in them. Oh my gosh. The venue for this wedding I just mentioned was also a library.
00:49:27
Speaker
Yeah. Incredible. We had a tough time finding a venue. We're really happy with the one we found, but it was like, we wanted somewhere that felt like a real place. You know what I mean? And we would have been okay with a hotel, but we didn't find like a hotel that really matched exactly what we wanted. I will say though, that we looked at some museums and now realizing like how much work goes into this, I'm really glad we chose somewhere that has its own catering.
00:49:52
Speaker
Oh, it does. Wow. I would not want to be dealing with catering on top of all of this. Yeah. Um, no, they have their own catering, their own, unfortunately expensive catering. Well, you know, if, if you're all in, the only thing I will say is that this wedding I went to or that I officiated last November at the library,
00:50:17
Speaker
They told them like five times not to put bacon in the Bloody Marys, and they definitely did. Oh, no. It was like a garnish or something. Yeah, I don't think our wedding is necessarily going to be kosher, but we definitely want people to know which food is and isn't kosher. Right. And that's something that people like don't really often know about Jews. It's like, well, they said not kosher, but you're like, yeah, but that doesn't mean trade.
00:50:40
Speaker
you know, and it's like, it's just like such a cultural thing that a lot of people don't get. Yeah, I think mostly the reason we probably wouldn't do kosher is because I'm from the Boston area. It's in the Boston area.
00:50:55
Speaker
Um, and the venue offers a lobster roll appetizer. Oh, I mean, I'm not kosher. And most of my family's not kosher. And I'm not saying no to that. Could you? I mean, that sounds so good. Yeah, that sounds so good. Well, it sounds like you are just chugging right along and pretty calm for when did you say it was 10 months from now?
00:51:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm in a better boat because I refuse to marry an incompetent man who expects me to do everything. Really? Oh, lucky you. No weaponized incompetence. Yeah. So I'm like, okay, so you're handling the DJ and these other things. I'm like, I'm not picking out your suit for you. I'm not making sure your brother gets dressed properly. You're coming to all the appointments and tastings and everything.
00:51:45
Speaker
And you trust him to do all that. I do trust him. And I also think that it's important to trust each other in a marriage, right? Right. And they say that if you can survive the wedding planning, you can survive anything. Yeah. Although I think that the wedding, I would be really shocked if the wedding planning is any tougher than the visa process.
Humorous Venue Assumptions
00:52:01
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Right. And what do we do together and the visa process was tougher.
00:52:07
Speaker
And yeah, and I'm sure that your rabbi during your ceremony will, you know, mention all of this as a testament to the strength, God willing of your future marriage. Yeah. But I was going to say the thing that was crazy to me is so the venue, which has mostly been absolutely lovely, sent over like a checklist of what to do when, which is super helpful. Glad I, glad it exists as a thing. Sure.
00:52:27
Speaker
And they sent over two different checklists. One of them's great, just straightforward. It's got a list of things to do and a series of checkboxes. Great. The other one has little descriptions about each thing and really assumes that the groom to be is just completely useless. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's absolutely the cultural norm. And there's also low key, this damaging assumption that, well, it's the women who love to spend the money. Yeah.
00:52:56
Speaker
Yeah, but the idea that like men don't care about, the men won't care about making things look pretty, the men won't get the food arranged properly, the men aren't to be trusted with this sort of thing is kind of like benevolent sexism towards women, right? It is, and I'm sure you've analyzed this, but I believe that it also is, it probably is meant to build solidarity between you and the amorphous other brides who are all in this together and the wedding who's here to help you. Yeah, but I'm like, why can't we include the grooms in this, you know?
00:53:26
Speaker
Right. But I think it's what I'm saying is I think it's very intentional, right? Because there's going to be some psychology to that. Yeah. But I mean, that list has to be, I mean, it was pretty alienating to me, but it has to be like crazy alienating if like the groom is doing the majority of the planning or if it's like a gay wedding or something like that. Like it has to be, and like, it was like the level of incompetence that assumed in this was like that
00:53:50
Speaker
you only maybe want to get the groom involved in wrangling his own groomsmen. And I'm like, what the hell? Well, and I mean, not that that can't be difficult, but you know, you're on Reddit. I'm on some of the weddings pages and there's every so often there's a post from a bride who just is not interested in a wedding, but her groom really wants one and she's really freaking out. And then it'll take a little while, but somebody will say, if he wants the wedding, let him plan it. And they literally had not thought of that possibility that he would. Yeah.
00:54:18
Speaker
Yeah. And it's so freeing, like, it's so simple, but it's so freeing to people that I think, you know, you're on to something. Yeah, yeah.
00:54:27
Speaker
Well, anyway, I'm very happy for you. I'm thrilled that you found a rabbi who you feel like is going to make everything, you know, you and that you weren't too scared and that it was pretty easy for you. And I hope that anybody who's listening to this, who is like hesitant about calling a rabbi or looking for somebody who will make their ceremony Jewish, like finds this inspirational that they shouldn't be so scared or so worried.
00:54:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And like I said, it's fine to not have it be Jewish, and it's fine to have it be Jewish. But I like that even as someone who's not super religious, that this hasn't been something that like
00:55:07
Speaker
I felt left out of, if that makes sense. For sure. And I think that I love too that you were willing to consider the possibility of having some Jewish stuff, even if it wasn't a rabbi. Oh, yeah. I went to a wedding, the wedding I went to last weekend was officiated by a justice of the peace, but they stepped on the glass and danced the horror.
00:55:25
Speaker
Right. And those were two of your like, your big things. But I also love that you found a rabbi who you, you were able to talk to about maybe not making it so Jewy. And you found out that that was actually fine also. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, I appreciate the flexibility that that's a really nice thing.
00:55:43
Speaker
Oh man. Well, I feel so lucky that I met you on Reddit and that you agreed to talk to me. Will you, I feel like this conversation has been so easy and I can't believe we're out of time already. Will you come back on after your wedding and tell us how it went?
00:55:58
Speaker
Absolutely. Um, reach out to me in September because the wedding will be done by then. I mean, let's say after the holidays so that you have plenty of time to whatever, unless you're dying to talk to me and then you then email me earlier because I don't have a synagogue, like whatever. So
00:56:16
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, sorry. Did you want to talk again before the wedding or after the wedding? No. Well, whenever, listen, if you, if you would find it beneficial to your own self to talk about the wedding, we'll talk anytime you want, Abby. Okay. But after the wedding, I just love to, for everybody to be able to hear how it went. Yeah. Well, the wedding's not until August, so it's, it's a while away. Okay. Okay. In Boston, it should be beautiful. If I could just reach out again, please feel free to reach out to me. Thank you so much. And would you like to tell anybody about your, um, the, your non-wedding self?
00:56:45
Speaker
oh yeah sure um so um i have a youtube channel called political psych with abby it's about the psychology of politics um i don't pretend to be apolitical but i try and base most of what i'm saying in facts and provide citations for what i'm saying i also have little jokes and things um
00:57:05
Speaker
It is hilarious guys. I know what I'm talking about. I have a master's degree in political psychology and I teach and do research in social and behavioral science as my day job.
00:57:16
Speaker
And we should all learn from each other. You know, it's a very Jewish thing to always be learning. So I'm thrilled that everybody can go in here. And I do love your voice. I find it like I do. I feel like I'm a bit in a classroom, you know, like you just sound very intelligent. And I like that. Yeah, I've been told I have like chronic NPR voice. Listen, what a compliment. I love that. Well, Abby, it's been wonderful. Thank you so much. And I can't wait for all of us to hear from you again soon. Thank you so much. Okay.
00:57:44
Speaker
Well everyone, I've had the best time being your rabbi for this episode. I'm so glad you joined me for another little bit of insight into planning your perfect Jewish or interfaith wedding. Until you can smash that glass on your big day, you might as well smash that subscribe button for this podcast. I don't want you to miss a single thing.
00:58:06
Speaker
Remember, you can always find me, Rabbi Lian, on Instagram. All one word for even more tips, tricks, recommendations, and wisdom on Jewish weddings.
00:58:23
Speaker
If you want to work with me on your wedding, you'll find all the info you need at YourOhioRabbi.com. Until next time, remember, you deserve the perfect wedding for you. Don't settle for anything less.