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18.5 - Jewish Christmas Trees
49 Plays1 year ago
Are you Jewish and stressing over whether and/or how to have a Christmas tree in your house? Are you wondering if you would be the first Jew to ever do something so crazy? (Spoiler: no, you wouldn't.)
Tune in to this episode to chat with Rabbi LeighAnn about tips for making the Christmas Tree choice, alternatives and compromises that *could* make it work for you and your partner, and stories about some famous (and normal)Jews who LOVED their Christmas trees.
Don't forget - you can reach me (Rabbi LeighAnn) any time at www.yourohiorabbi.com or everyonesfavoriterabbi.com or rabbileighann.com !
Fill out the contact form there if you'd like to work with me on your wedding. There are SO many options, from Ketubah consulting to ceremony planning. If there's something you have in mind, don't hesitate to ask - I'm here to help!
IG: @yourohiorabbi
Podcast IG: @yourjewishweddingpodcast
Send questions for me to answer on this podcast to:
Hope to see you next time! Remember - there is ALWAYS more learning to do!
<3 Rabbi LeighAnn
Links mentioned in this episode:
https://www.jta.org/jewniverse/2010/theodor-herzls-christmas-tree
https://forward.com/israel/356767/when-theodor-herzl-lit-his-christmas-tree/
https://time.com/5736523/history-of-christmas-trees/
https://jewishunpacked.com/why-do-some-jews-put-up-christmas-trees-around-new-years-unpacking-novy-god-sylvester/
https://www.amazon.com/Latke-Who-Couldnt-Stop-Screaming/dp/1932416870
Recommended
Transcript
Natalie Portman's Christmas Tree Controversy
00:00:00
Speaker
But she said that she was so excited because finally, after all these years of not having a Christmas tree, she had a good reason to have one and that she said it was the secret wish of every Jew in America. And this did upset a bunch of people. It was in 2016. God willing, soon again, we will have such trivial things to be upset about, as Natalie Portman talking about her excitement for a Christmas tree, right?
Introduction to 'Your Jewish Wedding' Podcast
00:00:26
Speaker
Are you planning a Jewish or interfaith wedding? Are you lost on where to even begin planning the ceremony, let alone finding a rabbi to help you?
00:00:37
Speaker
Well, it doesn't matter whether one of you is Jewish or you're both Jewish. You deserve a guide. So take a deep breath. I promise it will all be okay. Welcome to Your Jewish Wedding with Rabbi Lian. Here, I can be everyone's rabbi, yours too. My guests and I will share everything we know to help make your Jewish or interfaith wedding full of tradition and perfectly yours.
00:01:21
Speaker
Well hello everyone, it is so good to be here with you today. It is absolutely freezing outside, but sunny, which you know is my favorite.
00:01:33
Speaker
So I'm here with my coffee, my hot coffee, and wouldn't you know it? It's been so, so busy here that I have actually not lit the candle in my office yet. I can't believe it. Anyway, I'm here because I wanted to record a quick episode. I know, go ahead, laugh at me.
00:02:02
Speaker
A quick episode right as Hanukkah is ending. As I'm recording this, it is tonight, the seventh night of Hanukkah, so almost over, but this will be posting between Hanukkah and Christmas. And I am
Are Christmas Trees Acceptable in Interfaith Homes?
00:02:17
Speaker
just wanting to talk to all of the couples out there, my couples whose weddings, God willing, I will be officiating in 2024, which by the way, if you would like for me to officiate your wedding in 2024,
00:02:32
Speaker
Now's the time to book with me or to just send me a little message asking for an exploratory call and we'll see if you are interested in having me officiate your wedding just because, guys, engagement season is upon us. Those dates fill up fast and you know that I want to officiate all y'all's weddings.
00:02:52
Speaker
If you are hoping to get engaged this engagement season, I don't know. Maybe one of you got engaged on the last night of Hanukkah. How sweet would that be? If you had a Hanukkah engagement, email me. Not because I'm not trying to say, oh, you have to have me officiate your wedding. I just want to hear about it. I know we've had Jewish wedding story episodes, but maybe we should have very Jewy engagement episodes. Wouldn't that be cute? Aw.
00:03:21
Speaker
Well, anyway, if I am officiating your wedding this coming year and you are an interfaith couple, specifically if one of you is Jewish and one of you celebrates Christmas, whether in a religious way or in a non-religious way, I wanted to take a moment to speak with you all about what seems to be the hot topic when we're talking about interfaith couples, which is Christmas trees.
The Historical Significance of Christmas Trees
00:03:51
Speaker
Now, spoiler for the rest of the episode, okay, my hot take on Christmas trees is they're just, they're fine. It's just fine. But that's just me personally. And I know that some people do have more nuanced and sophisticated reasons for why they are opposed to Christmas trees in interfaith houses or just, I guess, like in public in general.
00:04:13
Speaker
Christmas trees have actually not as long of a history as you might think. And within that short history, between two and 400 years, however we're looking at it, there have been so many different opinions on the meaning, the significance, whether Jews should have them, whether they're a Christian thing, whatever. So just because
00:04:35
Speaker
I went down my little personal rabbit hole about Christmas trees because I wanted to learn more. Remember, what do I say? There's always more learning to do. And I wanted to be able to, I guess, check and see if my little opinion of, eh, meh, Christmas trees are fine. It's not a big deal. Was correct. Or there's like something I'm missing. You know, like maybe the inventor of Christmas trees was this giant anti-Semitic
00:05:02
Speaker
jerk i don't know but anyway so i did a little bit of learning and i wanted to share what i learned with all of you in case this is a conversation that is happening in your interfaith household whether you are engaged or hoping to get engaged or you're already married and you are having
00:05:19
Speaker
a conversation in your household about whether to have a Christmas tree, how to have a Christmas tree, what it means, what it doesn't mean, whether you should be offended, whether you should just whatever go along with it. Let's talk about all of it.
00:05:38
Speaker
So you know how I love my little history lessons and I created one for you all. Congratulations. Yes, this is my Hanukkah slash Christmas gift to you. Merry Hanukkah, happy Christmas. Wait, no, happy Hanukkah, merry Christmas.
00:05:55
Speaker
from Rabbi Leon. So the history of the Christmas tree, just like anything else that's pretty old, we're not exactly sure what the original intention of having the Christmas tree was in terms of religious symbolism, okay? There are lots of legends that tie a Christmas tree back to Christian explanations.
00:06:20
Speaker
But you guys know how this gig works, right? Because you are listening to episode 19 of the Your Jewish Wedding podcast with Rabbi Lian. And you know that pretty much every Jewish custom, especially the ones that are as old as the ones that we do in weddings,
00:06:34
Speaker
has like at least five explanations and they are almost never the original explanation for how we got the thing, right? And that's okay. We celebrate that. We love that because it allows us to choose something that resonates with us, which is why this actually might end up being a bonus for you interfaith couples. And we'll talk about that more as we go on.
00:06:57
Speaker
So what we do know is that evergreen trees, obviously their name, have always been a symbol of hope in the wintertime.
00:07:08
Speaker
So when you hear people say, as I have often said, that the Christmas tree is a pagan symbol anyway, well, in so far as pagans decorated their freezing cold winter mud huts with evergreens to make themselves feel a little happier during the shortest day of the year when everybody's depressed, yeah, okay, yes, Christmas tree could be a pagan symbol, okay?
00:07:34
Speaker
But I don't want any of you to use that argument as like, well, it's a pagan symbol as an argument against a spouse or a partner who really wants a Christmas tree because that's a very simplistic and inaccurate description of the origins of Christmas trees. Now,
Symbolism in Winter Holidays
00:07:53
Speaker
So, insofar as they are a symbol of hope in the wintertime, obviously because they're the only thing that's still green, especially the farther north of the equator you get, it's just wintertime is rough, man.
00:08:09
Speaker
stingy and it's dark and it's sad. And the most brightness you can hope for is snow, but then as soon as you get the snow, it's cold and everything's wet and it's just a mess, right? Of course, if you see one green thing out in nature, you are gonna pull that sucker into your house as quickly as possible and maybe, you know, feel a little better, maybe be reminded that before we know it, things will be green again, okay? And we see across the world,
00:08:38
Speaker
holidays, by the way, during the winter time that celebrate the triumph of light over darkness. Obviously Hanukkah, the Hanukkah story is one of a very dark situation where the Maccabees had just won back control of the temple, but it had been really trashed, like really trashed. And actually,
00:09:03
Speaker
Let's take a little detour. Hanukkah is actually a do-over of the holiday of Sukkot, because the Maghribis did not get to celebrate Sukkot in the temple as they should have because of the war. And so when they got back to the temple, they were like, hey, maybe we should have a Sukkot do-over. And that's why they wanted to light the Menorah in the temple for eight nights, because the holiday of Sukkot, plus Shemini Atzer, which is the eighth day of Sukkot, is how many days? Eight days. Fun fact, you may not have known.
00:09:36
Speaker
Now, if you're in a trivia game of some sort, or perhaps on Jeopardy, and there's a random Jewish holiday facts category, and you win the trivia game, please give me a shout out, okay? I will probably never hear it, but I'll feel it in my heart.
00:09:55
Speaker
Evergreens are a symbol of hope in the winter. So is Hanukkah. So is Jesus. Right? There's the idea that Jesus is, was a light to the world in a time of darkness. There's the holiday of Diwali, the Indian festival of lights.
Do Christmas and Hanukkah Share Origins?
00:10:11
Speaker
Everybody gets depressed in the winter. It's a very human thing. Things seem really bleak. Of course it's our human impulse to add light into a world of darkness. Okay.
00:10:20
Speaker
So incidentally, another side note, you guys know Jesus probably was not born at Christmas time, right? I mean, there are a lot of people who have spent a lot of time and energy trying to figure out exactly when Jesus was born. I don't really understand the point because we like having a birthday celebration for Jesus in the middle of winter, don't we?
00:10:40
Speaker
Don't we want to keep Christmas at Christmas? Interestingly, I did find out that there is one theory that says that because Jesus was Jewish, they just went ahead and decided to give him the birthday of the 25th.
00:10:55
Speaker
because that was the day the Jews started celebrating Hanukkah. Hanukkah, every year, it moves around on the Gregorian calendar, but it's always the same date on the Hebrew calendar. Obviously, it's always the 25th of Kislev, and there's a theory that says that the month of Kislev was just sort of haphazardly translated to December, because they are usually almost always the same month, more or less. So, which would mean that Christmas and Hanukkah actually are the same.
00:11:24
Speaker
as opposed to the message of my favorite Hanukkah book, which is The Latke Who Couldn't Stop Screaming by Lemony Snicket. And the reason he couldn't stop screaming is not because he was being fried, but because everyone kept trying to make Christmas and Hanukkah into the same thing. He kept screaming. It is the best Hanukkah book ever. It's unfortunately out of print, but you can get used copies, and I highly recommend that you do, and I will put the link in the show notes, obviously.
00:11:48
Speaker
I jest, of course. Hanukkah and Christmas are not the same thing. They never were the same thing. They might possibly share a date because of some lazy Greek dude. Okay, but that's just one theory. Now, all that said, Christmas trees have been symbols of Christmas, the holiday of Christmas, which celebrates the birth of Jesus, the Christian Messiah.
00:12:11
Speaker
for about as long as Jews have been doing the Passover Seder as we know it. So the Passover Seder was around the 1400s, and historians can trace the origins of a Christmas tree as a celebration item for Christmas to around that same time. So it's a long time, certainly worthy of reverence and respect as a Christian tradition,
00:12:35
Speaker
but also not forever. And certainly 1400 is not the same as, you know, CE zero, which I guess is the birth of Jesus. Wait, how do we count years? Is CE zero the birth of Jesus or the death of Jesus?
Jewish Perspectives on Christmas Trees
00:12:51
Speaker
Someone please help me because I'm not going to Google it right now. If you want to share the answer with me because you feel sorry for me, please email me at your Jewish wedding podcast at gmail.com and tell me because I'm a little, a little confused right now, regardless. Okay.
00:13:04
Speaker
However, Christmas trees have not always been symbols of the birth of Jesus in so far as we are celebrating the birth of a Messiah, right? They have almost always just been a really jolly symbol that kind of goes along with Christmas, right? So just because it goes along with Christmas doesn't mean it has a Christian meaning. Like the way that I hang blue and silver Christmas ornaments from my ceiling during Hanukkah time has
00:13:34
Speaker
absolutely zero religious meaning. Its entire purpose is to make everyone in my household jolly and excited for Hanukkah. That's all it means. And also all our string lights and, you know, the Hanukkah robot, do you guys have a Hanukkah robot? We do, and it makes us jolly for Hanukkah and very excited. So in that same vein, of course in Russia, they were Christian for a real long time until the revolution.
00:14:01
Speaker
And when there's like a fascist dictator or a communist revolution, one of the first things that goes out the window is religion. Because we're populists, we're not like, you know, like a theological monarchy or whatever, right? God is not part of the equation who creates their salvation, the people.
00:14:21
Speaker
you know, for the people for themselves. Is that correct? I don't know guys. Listen, I'm not an historian, but that's kind of the vibe I got when I was doing this research and also learning about communism at a high school level. Okay. So I did read about though, because I knew that there were a lot of Russian Jews or Jews who came from the former Soviet union who moved to the United States who had a Christmas tree or
00:14:46
Speaker
what looked like a Christmas tree. But in fact, as I learned, speaking to their children who I worked with when I worked at Hillel at The Ohio State University, that it is not a Christmas tree, it is a New Year's tree.
00:15:00
Speaker
And I thought they were just messing around, right? Because I'm like, oh, you just want a Christmas tree and you just want to call it a New Year's tree so that you are not technically celebrating Christmas. No, it actually was. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing this correctly, but it was the Novy God compromise, the Russian Novy God compromise, which said that it was a tree for Novy God, which was the New Year.
00:15:22
Speaker
Is that correct? So the Russians could keep their Christmas trees as long as they didn't call them Christmas trees anymore, as long as they called them New Year's trees. And they were symbols like of the Russian national or I guess the Soviet Union national pride.
00:15:40
Speaker
and joy in the darkest time of the year, I guess. So I have a link to an article about that in the show notes also. It's the jewishunpacked.com article entitled, Why Do Some Jews Put Up Christmas Trees Around New Years? And it is a real thing. And so if, listen, if you are a Jewish couple, like both of you are Jews, or like if one of you was born Jewish and another one converted, and the one of you who converted has a deep personal attachment to Christmas
00:16:10
Speaker
or obviously for an interfaith couple.
00:16:14
Speaker
and one of you really wants a Christmas tree, or both of you really, really wants a Christmas tree. All I'm saying is that you can share this sentiment of Russian Jews having Christmas trees as part of their survival, I guess, in Russia during that time, or as part of their national pride, or as a symbol that they weren't any different from any other people in their country
00:16:43
Speaker
and as a celebration of the secular new year and say, you know what, we're going to do that too. We are going to honor that Russian Jewish experience. I don't know. Now I'm not saying it's the same. Okay. But just to share, this is a thing that Jews have sort of done. Like during Passover, you may have heard that most Jews in America do not eat products that come from
00:17:06
Speaker
corn or soy or any rice during Passover. Well, that is only one Passover custom. The one that belongs to typically Ashkenazi Jews, which were Jews who had settled in the Eastern European diaspora. But the whole other set of Jews who settled in Spain and Morocco and Iraq and Iran and Judea and Samaria
00:17:34
Speaker
They remained in the Sephardic custom of Passover, which is to eat all that stuff, beans, rice, corn, whatever, because we know that it doesn't have leavening in it, no problem.
Famous Jews and Their Christmas Trees
00:17:45
Speaker
So my husband does not come from a Sephardic background. He's Litvak Latvian. I do not come from a Sephardic background. My family is Polish and German. And we were like, hey, let's do that Sephardic Passover thing, because that sounds really good.
00:18:00
Speaker
So we do, okay? Just because it doesn't come from our own personal branch of Jewish diaspora tradition does not mean that we can't do it, that it's like illegal, right? So I'm not saying it's the same because Passover is Dafka, you know,
00:18:17
Speaker
Part of his essence is a Jewish-Jewish thing, and Christmas trees are definitely not, by their essence, a Jewish-Jewish thing. You could argue that, number one, as we talked about in our interfaith marriage episode, a lot of American Jews are doing interfaith marriages, so marrying people who grew up with a Christmas tree.
00:18:38
Speaker
Y'all know there's a bunch of Russian Jews who moved to the United States in like the late 80s who had New Year's trees that look just like Christmas trees. So you know what? They're not any less of Jews and neither are we for having a Christmas tree. I'm not saying that same thing is Passover.
00:18:53
Speaker
But I'm kind of saying it's a little bit the same, don't you think? We are going to take a quick break. And after the break, I'm going to share with you the most exciting and interesting story about a famous Jew with a Christmas tree that I only learned last year when we get back.
00:19:16
Speaker
Welcome back everybody. So I just want to share with you because it brings me so much joy that I have learned in the past year about Jews who have had Christmas trees, not just any Jews, okay, but famous Jews, like Jews who were known for being Jewish and thinking Jewish thoughts and engaged in Jewish fields of study have had Christmas trees. Okay. So one example is this guy named Gershom Scholem who,
00:19:44
Speaker
He is the founder of the academic study of Kabbalah. So he grew up with a Christmas tree in his house, super Jewish family, right? He grew up learning to read Hebrew, speaking Yiddish, and they had a Christmas tree in their house.
00:20:00
Speaker
They had Christmas dinner and his aunts and uncles used to sing Silent Night. He wrote in his diary. Okay. The most famous person, the one that brought me the most joy to learn that this guy had a Christmas tree. Are you ready? It was Theodore Herzl.
00:20:17
Speaker
Theodore Herzl is known as the father of Zionism. The guy who figured, listen, Jews are never going to be fully free in the diaspora, in exile from the land of Israel. And we've tried for a long time and it's just not working out. We'd better figure out this whole Jewish homeland thing. He was the thought leader and the political leader who really spurred the creation of
00:20:46
Speaker
the Jewish state, the state of Israel, which finally was founded long after his death in 1948. But what was really hilarious, I mean, this guy, he was something else. So he had a Christmas tree in his living room. And we know about it because he kept a pretty detailed journal. And on December 24th, 1895,
00:21:11
Speaker
Theodore Herzl lived in Vienna, Austria. And he had, on that day, on December 24th, Christmas Eve, 1895, he had a meeting scheduled with a very important Viennese rabbi, Moritz Gudemann. And he said, yeah, rabbi, just come over to my house and we'll have our meeting. So this rabbi gets to his house.
00:21:34
Speaker
Listen, I don't know if he was trolling or what he was doing. You know, who knows because he wrote about this incident himself, right? But he said he was at the time the rabbi arrived at his home. He was lighting the Christmas tree for his children. Rabbi was.
00:21:51
Speaker
apparently displeased. Herzl wrote that he seemed upset by the quote-unquote Christian custom, and he did put Christian in quotes, which shows that he wasn't even fully sold on the fact that it was a religious or Christian symbol, okay? And then he wrote in his journal, I will not let myself be pressured. I don't mind if they call it the Hanukkah tree or the Winter Solstice tree, but he's not taking it down, not even for one of the most important rabbis in Austria to visit his house and have a meeting with him about how important it is to have
00:22:20
Speaker
a homeland for the Jewish people where we would always be safe. Okay.
00:22:24
Speaker
So this might seem like he's trolling, but in all seriousness, the more I thought about this and the more I read about this particular incident and this particular Jewish figurehead having a Christmas tree, the more it made sense to me because the point of Zionism for Theodore Herzl in his thought was that no matter what Jews do, they will never be considered equal to Christians in the wider community.
00:22:52
Speaker
we will always be a little bit apart and we will always be a little bit in danger. And any of you who have been living, as I have, in the past several months since the October 7th, 2023, pogroms in our own land, the land of Israel, which we never thought we would see,
00:23:13
Speaker
And the worldwide backlash against who? Against Israel, in the aftermath of this, should only hammer home the importance of the idea of the Jews having a homeland where they can be safe. And this idea that no matter what kind of Jews we are, no matter what our skin color is, no matter what our background is, no matter how observant we are,
Theodor Herzl's Vision of Religious Freedom
00:23:36
Speaker
there will still be widespread animus against our people. So he knew that, and he was prescient, obviously. He wanted a total separation of religion from the state. So while he wanted a Jewish state, a Jewish homeland for Jewish people, he wanted religion to have nothing to do with it. Because his philosophy was, religion is not what makes somebody Jewish, and he was absolutely right.
00:24:03
Speaker
There were Jews all across the world and living through the European Enlightenment, and he saw them hoping to become equals with their non-Jewish counterparts, with their Christian counterparts especially, and just not making headway in the way they wanted to. If you are interested in this topic of
00:24:21
Speaker
the history of Zionism and the founding of the Jewish state. I encourage you to read all about it. It's really fascinating. But he wanted a state for the Jewish people where there was no religious coercion, where everyone could choose their own religious beliefs and practices.
Jewish Families and Christmas Traditions
00:24:36
Speaker
Okay, so in Vienna at that time, I learned that the Christmas trees were an important signifier for middle and upper class Viennese people, whether they were Christian or Jewish. And very interestingly, okay, this is an even deeper dive into Austrian Christmas trees in the late 1800s. The first recorded mention of a Christmas tree in Vienna, Austria was actually in the home of a wealthy Jewish family.
00:25:05
Speaker
An 1814 report compiled by the state police references the tree in the salon of the Arnsteins, a family of Jewish bankers. Fanny von Arnstein had brought the Christmas tree custom to Vienna from her native Berlin. So this goes back to what I've said a few times on this podcast already. What is it? Jews love to be fashion. If a Christmas tree is fashion, Fanny von Arnstein was going to be fashion and have her a Christmas tree.
00:25:35
Speaker
So in a way, you know, because Herzl was saying, listen, Jewish attempts at assimilation are futile no matter what I do, no matter how like Christians I try to be. Everyone's going to remember and know that I am Jewish and that I am different from them. And during that time, Jews were really largely acculturated.
00:25:56
Speaker
meaning Jewish day-to-day life looked pretty much just like any other person's day-to-day life, kind of like it is now in 2023 United States of America. Even though that was true of Viennese Jews, they were still barred from public office. And that made a lot of them convert to Christianity because they wanted the privilege of being elected to public office, of being truly equal with everyone. In order to do that, you had to be Christian. Herzl did not want that.
00:26:22
Speaker
So, in a way, you could see his Christmas tree, Theodor Herzl's Christmas tree, as a symbol of Jewish pride, as a symbol of saying that I know no matter what I do, this Christmas tree does not make me Christian, and everyone knows that. So, if you were looking for an intellectual academic, perhaps reason to put up a Christmas tree, you could do it in homage to Theodor Herzl. You know, Sykeson, he would probably
00:26:48
Speaker
would probably really appreciate it, honestly, because the vitriol in recent decades against Christmas trees as a symbol of assimilation has been so intense. And the more reading I did about the history of Jewish Christmas trees in America,
00:27:05
Speaker
the more I realized that it has actually really become intense within the last couple of decades. And I think it might have to do with the same thing as the upset about interfaith marriage, which we talked about, I think it was all the way back in episode five. I'm not sure. We'll have to check.
00:27:21
Speaker
That 2020 survey, National Jewish Population Survey, or not, I'm sorry, the 2000 NJPS, National Jewish Population Survey, which was like 52% of Jews are marrying non-Jews and everybody panicked. Maybe it's a Christmas tree panic as well, I don't know. But I will say that I learned that Rabbi Joshua Eli Plout, who was the nephew of Gunther Plout, who was one of the foremost modern
00:27:48
Speaker
Hebrew Bible scholars of our time and anybody who went to rabbinical school and anybody who went to Christian seminary also knows who Gunther Plout was. His nephew was a rabbi. He was growing up in Long Island in the early 1960s. And he has a memory that he talks about in his book, kosher Christmas, that his mother took him to sit on Santa's lap at the Gert's department store in Long Island.
00:28:13
Speaker
and Santa always asked him what he wanted for Christmas and he always explained that he celebrated Hanukkah and Santa still gave him a candy cane. And he said he knew it was out of place and strange for a Jewish child whose father was a rabbi, whose father was a civil rights activist in Great Neck, whose uncle was a famous
00:28:37
Speaker
Hebrew Bible scholar, right? And he said years later, he just sort of always did this thing, you know, his mom would take him, he'd go sit on Santa's lap, get his candy cane, explain that he was Jewish, and go home. He said years later, he asked his mother why she took him to sit on Santa's lap, and she said that she was just doing for him what every American mother did for her child, right? So to her, this, you know, this woman who was the Jewish wife of a prominent Jewish rabbi,
00:29:03
Speaker
didn't even look at Christmas celebrations as a religious thing. It was a cultural thing that she didn't want her baby to miss out on.
How Do Interfaith Couples Navigate Holidays?
00:29:12
Speaker
And also, you know me, I'm clicking on every clickbait article, especially in things that I'm interested in, which apparently is Jewish Christmas trees. Apparently Natalie Portman had a Christmas tree. I don't know. Guys, tell me about Natalie Portman. Who did she marry? It seemed like the quote that they were talking about from her was that her in-laws maybe wanted a Christmas tree.
00:29:35
Speaker
She was asking her husband, would they be uncomfortable if we didn't have a Christmas tree when they come to visit in December? And Natalie Portman's parents, who I think were Israeli or who had made Aliyah, who had moved to Israel at some point, were like, well, we'll just put up a Christmas tree. It's fine. And she was talking about it, I think, on the tonight, some late night show, David Letterman, Jimmy Kimmel. I don't know. Obviously I should have done my research better, but I felt like Theodore Herzl was more important than Natalie Portman. I'm sorry.
00:30:03
Speaker
don't hate me, Star Wars fans especially, because I too love and adore Natalie Portman. We all do. If you are a Jewish person who does not love and adore Natalie Portman and feel a great sense of national and religious pride when you see her in any movie, okay, even if it was the Star Wars prequel, which I know you didn't like and you thought was silly and Jar Jar Binks was what I don't want to hear it because Natalie Portman is an angel, okay? So she was on some late night show and she was telling the host
00:30:32
Speaker
this story and that she said that she was so excited because finally after all these years of not having a Christmas tree she had a good reason to have one and that she said it was the secret wish of every Jew in America and this did upset a bunch of people it was in 2016 you know
00:30:48
Speaker
God willing, soon again we will have such trivial things to be upset about as Natalie Portman talking about her excitement for a Christmas tree, right? God willing that someday soon that we should not have such huge problems that are gripping our consciousness and our mood at all times and that we should go back to arguing about how Jewishly significant it is that Natalie Portman was talking about loving
00:31:12
Speaker
her parents' Christmas tree. Okay, so if Natalie Portman, that Jewish beauty, goddess, angel, Star Wars icon, icon in general, can be excited about her family's Christmas tree, you may be asking, then why can't I? Or if you are the non-Jewish spouse with a Jewish partner, or if you have converted to Judaism and maybe you still want a Christmas tree and you and your Jewish spouse are having a conversation about it,
00:31:41
Speaker
You may be asking, why can't I? OK, here's the simple answer for that. A lot of Jews are kind of traumatized by a Christmas tree. I don't want to say traumatized. I think there are a couple of different reasons that Jews are really, really anti-Christmas trees for themselves. And maybe even judge, God forbid, but maybe even judge other Jews for having said Christmas trees is because, number one, they are proud to be Jewish.
00:32:10
Speaker
and they want every opportunity to display how proud they are to be Jewish, even and maybe especially when that pride is shown in the absence of something in their home. Okay, so you guys have seen this funny t-shirt that says, tis the season, to remind everybody that I'm Jewish. And I'm a little bit guilty of that, not because I don't like Christmas, okay, but because I am a mother. And very recently,
00:32:38
Speaker
I was a mother of young children. My youngest child now, thank God, is 11, and I like her very much. I did not like the little child age. And I really didn't like all of the, what seemed to me like competitive mothering that goes on, especially in our little suburban utopia that we live in. I would watch every December
00:33:02
Speaker
parents, but especially mothers, running around like crazy people trying to adequately celebrate Christmas. Okay, so the Christmas tree is the easy part. If you are a Jewish person and you did not grow up around Christmas, listen to me. The Christmas tree is the easy part. Of course, there's also dinner.
00:33:23
Speaker
But then there's figuring out where are we spending Christmas? Where are we spending Christmas Eve? Where are we spending Christmas Eve Eve? Well, my spouse's parents want to have it this night. My parents want to have it this other night. Should we have dinner at our house? Are we damaging our children by taking them
00:33:38
Speaker
all over to different grandparents' house? Oh my goodness, are we damaging our children by not taking them everywhere to grandparents' house? How early is too early to celebrate Christmas? If we have a Christmas party with my in-laws on December 12th, does that count or do we have to go back before Christmas? Then there's the holiday parties. If your child is part of any organization,
00:33:57
Speaker
There's a party. There's the karate dojo party. And if your child is in ballet, there's the nutcracker and there's the Christmas play at school. And if you have four kids, guess what? There's four Christmas plays at school and they might all be the same play, but they might not be. And by the way, Christmas is also a gift giving holiday. So there's all this money to spend and all this shopping to do and all these things to wrap. And before you know it,
00:34:24
Speaker
Christian mothers or secular mothers who celebrate Christmas. You are having a full on meltdown and not, I didn't feel joy. Okay. I want you to hear this. It did not feel joy at the expense of all the other adults who were running around trying to survive the Christmas season.
00:34:45
Speaker
I did feel a little sorry for them. Mostly I felt an overwhelming sense of relief that I was not Christian and that I did not celebrate Christmas. No hate, but I am just so relieved that I have never been expected to take part in any of that. So every year I'm like, I'm so glad I'm Jewish.
00:35:05
Speaker
There's a little smugness to it, but I do want you to know that I do take the opportunity every year to ask my nearest and dearest, how can I support you during Christmas? Do you want me to wrap some things? Do you want me to buy some things? Do you want me to cook a turkey for you? And I'll do it gladly. You know why? Because I don't have to do anything else. So that's why if you don't have a Jewish best friend, if you are a Christian and you're listening to this for fun or because you're marrying somebody Jewish or because your daughter's marrying somebody Jewish or whatever, find yourself a Jewish bestie.
00:35:34
Speaker
who literally all she has to do on Christmas is order Chinese food and go to the movies. Find yourself that friend and make sure she's the kind of friend who will text you three weeks before Christmas. How can I support you over the next three weeks? How can I help? Because guess what? You'll make her feel better about herself and she'll help you.
00:35:54
Speaker
I promise we exist. If you're a Jewish person who would like a non-Jewish bestie to be of some help to during the Christmas season, send me an email at your Jewish wedding podcast at gmail.com. Maybe I can be a matchmaker. Wouldn't that be lovely? I think it would.
00:36:11
Speaker
So let's take a break, and when we come back, I will tell you about some ways that if you are on the fence about whether or not you as a couple can or should have a Christmas tree, some of the ways that people in interfaith households or in intercultural households make the whole thing work.
00:36:41
Speaker
Welcome back everyone. So I've done a little research into how some families make this whole thing work when they're like, okay, we want a Christmas tree, but we are also celebrating Hanukkah. How are we going to do this in our house in a way that I don't know that feels okay to us or that feels
00:37:01
Speaker
you know, honest to us or truly respectful of both of our traditions. Okay. So, and by the way, I also have a bunch of interfaith families and I've talked to them about Christmas and Hanukkah and they, you know, kudos to all of you who have already done the hard work of not seeing the difference in your winter holiday traditions as an obstacle.
00:37:27
Speaker
Because for so long, we have referred to it as the December Dilemma. And if you Google the December Dilemma, you will find so much stuff, so much angst, so much hand wringing about what are we going to do about December? What are we going to do about this Christmas tree issue? More and more, I have been meeting
00:37:44
Speaker
couples who do not view their different winter traditions, their most beloved traditions for a lot of people, their favorite holidays or Hanukkah and or Christmas. They don't see it as an obstacle, but instead as an opportunity. And if I use that in your wedding talk, it is an
00:38:01
Speaker
I know that there are more than one of you couples out there that I used this phrase. It's not because I'm recycling your wedding talks, I promise. It's because so many couples are an inspiration to me and I do love that phrase. It's not an obstacle, it's an opportunity. So it's an opportunity for them to learn about one another and for them to celebrate together and for them to demonstrate to one another how they experience warmth and joy at this time of year.
00:38:29
Speaker
and to bring something new into each other's lives. And I think that's wonderful. So here are how some families make it work, to have both Hanukkah and Christmas and specifically to have a Christmas tree, okay? If you have a Christmas tree in your house and you also celebrate Hanukkah, put the Christmas tree in the same room as the menorah and whatever Jewish star decoration in the dreidels and the Hanukkah robot. Seriously though, do you guys have a Hanukkah robot?
00:38:56
Speaker
We have Judah Maccabot 2000 and he is hilarious. He rolls around and sings Hanukkah songs and bounces off the walls and goes the other direction. The dogs hate him, the kids love him, but I assume that many of you have a Hanukkah robot. If you don't, this is your sign to go get one. They might even be on sale now that Hanukkah is over. So put the Hanukkah stuff and the Christmas tree in the same room
00:39:20
Speaker
to show that the holidays are of equal importance and equally treasured by you as a couple, even if Hanukkah is over. If you have agreed to keep them both in the same room,
Approaches to Christmas Trees in Jewish Homes
00:39:33
Speaker
but Hanukkah ends way before Christmas, Christian members of a couple or Christmas celebrating members of a couple, do not use that as an excuse to take down the menorah. Listen,
00:39:43
Speaker
I know as well as anyone that we all want to pack up our stuff back in their storage totes and put it where it belongs because otherwise it collects dust and makes us crazy for the sake of this of showing how proud you are and how happy you are that you are celebrating both traditions in the same household in December you got to leave the menorah up okay now obviously
00:40:03
Speaker
You know, one Jew, 17 opinions, as you all know, you're longtime listeners. You guys know what you signed up for. That is not an answer that works for all people. And in fact, some interfaith couples find the approach of keeping the holiday stuff in the same room or combining the holiday stuff disingenuous.
00:40:23
Speaker
because their argument is we know that they're not the same holiday. We wouldn't want to disrespect the other's holiday by conflating the two. So they will have a Hanukkah area. Maybe Hanukkah lives in the dining room because you need the big candle to light up the Hanukkiahs, right? And we spend a lot of time in the dining room, so it's fine. And Christmas lives in the living room because that's where we have enough space for our Christmas tree. Maybe, I don't know.
00:40:49
Speaker
But that is a way that other families deal with this question of under what conditions is it going to be possible for us to have a Christmas tree in a house where we have a Jewish member of a couple and a Christmas celebrating member of a couple. That's one of the ways they do it. Okay.
00:41:04
Speaker
Similarly, you know, I know that there are people who put Jewish ornaments on the Christmas tree and call it a Hanukkah bush, especially when there are, I know this was the thing in the 90s, especially there would be like a Jewish Jewish couple, mom and dad are both Jewish or dad and dad, you know, both members of the couple are Jewish and they want to, they really want a Christmas tree because they like Christmas trees like Natalie Portman. So they decorate it in like blue and silver and call it a Hanukkah bush.
00:41:31
Speaker
I used to think that was the dumbest thing ever. I am not joking you. I used to think like why that's not, everybody knows that's not a Hanukkah bush. Everybody knows that's not a thing. Well, it turns out I was wrong because you know who had a Christmas tree? Theodore Herzl. And he literally called it a Hanukkah tree.
00:41:50
Speaker
in his journal in the late 1800s. So jokes on me, you know, egg on my face. Okay, so obviously some people deal with it in exactly the opposite way. They say, yes, I'm putting up this Christmas tree. I am recognizing that it's a Christmas tree. I'm not trying to conflate it with anything from the Jewish tradition or faith,
00:42:09
Speaker
because the Jewish faith is distinct and separate and worthy of its own stuff and not to just be something that gets transposed onto a Christian tradition. Clearly, these are diametrically opposite, but if one of them sounds good to you, if one of them sounds like, yes, that is what would make me feel settled and peaceful and happy with having a Christmas tree, then you do it.
00:42:34
Speaker
Okay. Now there is, and I'm not a big fan of this coping mechanism for Jewish people who have a spouse who wants to put up a Christmas tree. It is the grin and Barrett approach. We are gonna white knuckle it through this Christmas tree season because the Jewish person just really, really, really does not like it. But what does the Jewish person really, really like his or her spouse. And, and for love of the spouse, that Jewish person is going to allow the Christmas tree.
00:43:04
Speaker
Now, obviously, this is an ideal, right? We want to be able to feel comfortable in our own homes, to embrace the holiday expressions that are going on in our own homes. However, as a person who
Interfaith Marriage and Holiday Compromise
00:43:18
Speaker
has been married for 19 years, I will tell you that there are some things that you just grin and bear it about.
00:43:26
Speaker
Okay, like for example, my husband works from home. He works for a law firm located in Washington DC, so he works from home 100% of the time. Now, he has gone on a personal health journey over the last year or so. His approach to this health journey is to eat a small amount of super healthy food.
00:43:45
Speaker
every hour and a half or so. Oh, Rabbi Leon, that sounds really good. Why aren't you happy about that? Well, friends, because my office is not actually an office. It is the breakfast nook in the kitchen and there is no door. It is separated by a curtain.
00:44:01
Speaker
And so every time my husband comes and slices himself some carrots or slices up an apple, he does it. Listen, he does it on a ceramic plate. It makes a terrible clinking noise. It's very loud. A lot of times I have to edit it out of my podcast. I do still feel a little self-conscious speaking out loud like this. When somebody else is in the rooms, there's a lot of pauses. You know what I do about it? I grin and bear it.
00:44:28
Speaker
Because what? What is he supposed to do? Not come eat snacks in his own home? What? I'm going to pick a fight about this. As a person who has been married for 19 years and has had very, very, very few significant fights, let me give you this piece of advice. Y'all pick one or two big fights a year. Things you're going to stand your ground on.
00:44:45
Speaker
and let everything else go. Perhaps in this podcast and future episodes, you will hear about the things that me and my husband have stood our ground on. It's not very many in 19 years, and I am certainly not willing to kick up a fuss over snack preparation during my podcasting time. Guess what? I can just take a moment and edit out the silence later, which is what I do. Some of you may feel this way about the Christmas tree.
00:45:10
Speaker
It may make you clench your teeth and annoy you to no end. And you may also be able to say, I love my spouse so much. And I know that the Christmas tree brings her so much joy and makes her feel cozy and at home. And I can handle it.
00:45:30
Speaker
I don't like it, but part of being married is recognizing that there will be things that go on in our lives that we are not 100% thrilled about, but because we love the person we married, because we wanted to build a home and a life with that person.
00:45:45
Speaker
We let it slide, and it's fine. And you know what, just like I did with my podcasting, maybe we learned some skills for coping with that thing. And it turns out okay. Not to say that my podcast is the same as Christmas, please. You all know that's not what I'm saying. But I'm the kind of person who likes to sympathize with people by relating it back to my own life experience.
Alternatives to Traditional Christmas Trees
00:46:04
Speaker
I understand there are people who hate people like me. If that's you, I'm sorry. I guess fast forward or something, okay.
00:46:12
Speaker
All right, whatever. There are a couple more compromises. One of them is you don't include any religious decorations on the tree, so you can have the tree, but there's no baby Jesus. There's no angel on the top. There's not even a star to guide. It's a three wise men. There is certainly no nativity scene.
00:46:27
Speaker
That seems fair. Another one is putting up the tree just for a little bit. So you put it up for the week of Christmas and then you take it down. Sweetheart, I love that you love the Christmas tree so much. I love that it brings you so much joy. I understand that the macaroni frame ornament that you made in kindergarten is very important to you to display on the tree because your mom gave it to you. And I want you to have that, but I can only take it for a week.
00:46:51
Speaker
fine. That's a compromise you could make. Another one is you let it be your spouse's thing and you don't participate. If your spouse is okay with that, fine. There are also Christmas tree alternatives, right? You could ask yourself and this is something that you could do in premarital counseling or you know what, just listen, I don't know. Maybe I'll add this to my services. Do you want to have a Christmas conversation with Rabbi Leanne?
00:47:17
Speaker
Maybe I'll put that on my website. Let's book a call and we will talk through this whole Christmas thing. And I will ask you, because I have done this with one of my friends. She is not engaged as far as I know, although she may be getting married. No, she may be getting engaged this engagement season. And I hope she is because I really, really like her girlfriend. And if you are listening to this, you know who you are. And if you did get engaged and nobody knows, and I sort of know and like this,
00:47:46
Speaker
you know, genius level, prescient, omnipotent way.
Deciding on Christmas Trees in Interfaith Homes
00:47:52
Speaker
Please accept my Mazel Tov. We talked about this and I said to the Jewish person in this couple, what is it about the Christmas tree that makes you so upset? And she said it was like the, maybe like the physical structure of it, like it felt both ideologically and physically imposing, I guess. And so,
00:48:14
Speaker
It was like the greenery and the space it took up. So what she did is she made a Christmas tree out of lights on the wall, which I thought was sweet. Some people are like, I like the greenery, but I don't like it in tree form. Can we just do like garlands and wreaths? Fine.
00:48:31
Speaker
In some families, they hang ornaments. Now listen, there are so many ornaments in my house. I got the idea from my friend Tiffany, whose wedding I did in her living room on the day they legalized gay weddings. I went to her and her wife's house for Christmas. No, I went to her and her wife's house for, for friends giving. And they had already decorated for Christmas, which I understand is the thing people do. And they had in their home all over the ceiling ornaments stuck up to the ceiling. I was like, what is going on?
00:49:01
Speaker
She said, oh, when we got together, we both had a ton of Christmas ornaments and we didn't have enough space on our tree, so we just started hanging them on the ceiling. It looked so jolly and so festive. I need to post a picture of mine to Instagram, but I don't know. This year, my application was a bit lackluster. Long story short, at least in my opinion, long story short, there are currently
00:49:27
Speaker
about 200 Christmas tree ornaments of various shades of blue and silver on my living room ceiling. The kids just see them as Hanukkah decorations. They love them. Actually, they call them Hanukkah bombs because once in a while, one of them will fall from, because I just use scotch tape, you know. But anyway, if you are a couple where somebody cannot stand the tree, but you maybe have ornaments or you just love ornaments in general,
00:49:54
Speaker
and you're willing to give up the tree but you just still want those ornaments, hang them on the ceiling, okay? Now let's take one more short break and we'll go through the reasons why I think it's a good idea for you to have a Christmas tree and why I think it might not be a good idea for you all to have a Christmas tree in your home.
00:50:19
Speaker
Okay, welcome back, everyone. Are you ready? Let's see if the reasons that you have put out there about whether or not to have a Christmas tree in your home, whether I think they go more along with the red flag, don't do it, you're not ready, or yeah, man, go ahead, put up the Christmas tree, okay. When I'm going to say, my friends, maybe don't do the Christmas tree this year.
00:50:45
Speaker
Reason number one, it makes you feel fundamentally uncomfortable in a way that you don't think that you can get over this year, okay?
Maintaining Jewish Identity with Christmas Traditions
00:50:55
Speaker
So I don't think, by the way, that you should just say, I'm uncomfortable, end of discussion with your spouse. I don't, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that an evergreen tree in your living room is a hill that anybody really truly wants to die on, okay?
00:51:12
Speaker
Obviously, I can imagine certain cases where it could be the kind of thing where you say, babe, I just cannot. I'm triggered or whatever it is, I cannot fathom ever, ever being okay with a Christmas tree in my space. Please, I'm begging you no.
00:51:28
Speaker
Okay, if that is you, then no, don't put up the Christmas tree this year. If you can't be comfortable, if you're feeling anxious, especially with rising anti-Semitic attitudes in the United States, listen, I get it, okay? And hopefully your spouse does too. Now, if this is the case, if you cannot have that tree, maybe think about if there's any way you could possibly have any alternatives like the ones I discussed, okay? If your spouse feels strongly about a Christmas tree.
00:51:54
Speaker
And obviously, you should examine that feeling, especially if it's important to your spouse. Table the conversation for next year, but leave the possibility open. Also, if you are a Jewish person and you believe that, in your opinion, having a Christmas tree in your home is against Jewish law, if it violates your personal beliefs about your religious observance,
00:52:19
Speaker
I don't think that this is a very likely scenario, by the way, because I think if you're the kind of person who thinks that a Christmas tree violates Jewish law, you're also very likely to think that interfaith marriage violates Jewish law. And so you probably will not find yourself in this situation anyway, unless you have married one of those Jews whose family came from Russia and puts up the Christmas tree.
00:52:43
Speaker
But if this is the thing where you hold, it's an issue of maris ion, which means we shouldn't make people think Jews are doing non-Jewish stuff because it'll make us look bad. Or if it goes along with the principle of chukaragoim, which is, you know, Jews just really shouldn't be doing things that only non-Jewish people tend to do. You know, if you believe that having a Christmas tree goes along with either of those principles and if you already have that belief, you knew what I was just referencing. I don't need to do a deeper dive on that right now.
00:53:13
Speaker
But if you believe that, if it's a deeply held belief of yours, then I think that that probably means that you can't have a Christmas tree, you know, unless you can some other way square that belief. And if you have married somebody who loves all of you, he or she probably already knows this about you and knows that you're not willing to violate Jewish law for a non-Jewish holiday. Okay.
00:53:34
Speaker
So obviously everything in life and indeed everything in a marriage is a cost benefit analysis, right? We already talked about this a little bit. I'm sorry to my husband with your snacks. I do love you and I'm glad that you are on a health journey. Okay. But if something would cause more trouble, then benefit, right? It's cost benefit analysis.
00:53:54
Speaker
If you are worried about extended family, you really want a Christmas tree in your house, but you know that your in-laws are going to lose their minds.
00:54:06
Speaker
and hassle you and hassle your spouse and say terrible things to your children or gossip, gossip, gossip, or whatever it is. I'm not saying that any of those things are right. And I would say to your in-laws or to your parents, just stop. It's not for you to worry about. It's not your house. I know it's hard. I have children. I know it's hard to disconnect yourself from the stuff they do, but man, you got it. Okay. So I'm not saying it's right, but if you know what friends or family members reactions are going to be to your Christmas tree,
00:54:36
Speaker
and you do not want to deal with them. You are not emotionally equipped to deal with them, or you just don't want to, then don't put up the Christmas tree. Okay. Maybe go back to those lists of alternatives that I talked about and think about, man, can we do something else? Something like that. Okay.
00:54:52
Speaker
So now, let's go to the little more joyful side of the argument. Reasons why you really should just put up the Christmas tree, okay? Just put it up. Don't stress too much. Don't overthink it, okay? Just put up your Christmas tree. Here they are. If you, from the bottom of your gorgeous, optimistic, loving, newly engaged, or newlywed heart, cherish the joy that the Christmas tree brings your Christmas celebrating partner or spouse.
00:55:23
Speaker
And yeah, you don't love the Christmas tree, but oh my goodness, do you love that person so much? So much that you will do almost anything to see the joy on his or her face when the Christmas tree is in your house. Just put it up. It won't hurt you, okay? It won't hurt you and it will, you know, God willing, even strengthen your relationship, okay? If you are Jewish and you are feeling anything in the range of indifference to positivity toward Christmas trees,
00:55:52
Speaker
Don't worry that it's not a Jewish thing, technically. You're not living your life for what other people think or for what is technically something or something. Life is too short, guys. If something doesn't bother you and the only reason you're not doing it is because of what other people will think or what other people might think or what you imagine other people are thinking or what that guy who always walks his dog at 9 p.m. will think when he looks in your window and knows you're Jewish, but why do you have a Christmas? Who cares?
00:56:20
Speaker
If you're personally indifferent, if you're personally even kind of liking the idea of having a Christmas tree like Natalie Portman, or like Theodore Herzl when he wanted Christmas time to be jolly for his children in 1895, just put it up. Who cares? If you have to talk to people about it, or if you just want to be the person who's kind of like a troll,
00:56:41
Speaker
and people ask you about your Christmas tree, maybe you're really excited about the idea of being able to say, well, actually, and telling people about the pagan origins of the Christmas tree. We're telling people about, you know, what was her name? Fanny Von Somebody, Fanny Von Ornstein.
00:56:58
Speaker
in Vienna, who brought over a Christmas tree because it was fashion, or, you know, theater rehearsal, or the Russian Jews, or Rabbi Plout, or any of these other stories you can find about really famous Jews, really proud Jews who had Christmas trees, fine. Then use this as your holiday conversation point. Are you worried about not having something, a fun fact, to share with people at the company Christmas party?
00:57:23
Speaker
You're welcome. I just gave it to you. Okay, so go ahead. It's secular in some cultures. Even some Jews have traditionally had it go for it. If you love that explanation, then put up the Christmas tree. Or lastly, and I think most nobly, honestly, if you are taking after
00:57:42
Speaker
The noted and famed Zionist Theodore Herzl. And you are so proud to be Jewish and you know you're Jewish and you know nothing can change that. And you want to show everybody how irrevocably, unshakably Jewish you are. That even having a Christmas tree does not make you not Jewish. Go for it, man. And put the Star of David on top if you really want to.
00:58:07
Speaker
Everybody has their own reaction to a Christmas tree, and especially Jews have reactions to Christmas trees. You did not come on this podcast to hear what I thought about Christmas trees. I hope you didn't. I hope you're not here because you care what I think. I hope you're here because you care about learning. And I hope you're here on this podcast because you know that right here we are going to have a conversation that tries really hard to look at several sides of whatever
00:58:33
Speaker
issue you came to hear about and that will help you think critically about what decisions you are going to make for your own wedding, for your own life as an interfaith couple or as a Jewish couple where somebody just really wants a Christmas tree. I don't know. Okay. So in that vein,
00:58:50
Speaker
You might say, all this stuff is pretty conflicting and contradictory, Rabbi Leanne, and you are just a big old hypocrite and you don't have any formed thoughts on anything false. I do have thoughts personally on a Christmas tree in my house, which is that, I don't know, do you guys want to hear it? I don't have any special love for Christmas trees.
00:59:11
Speaker
Um, yeah. I don't know. It just feels like something that would just be completely non-related to any holiday stuff that I do. I don't think they're all that gorgeous. I don't have any special emotional connections to Christmas trees. And maybe most importantly, I live in an old house with four kids and a husband. And my husband and I both work from home. The kids are teenagers. They're almost all bigger than me.
00:59:35
Speaker
I don't have space for a Christmas tree.
00:59:44
Speaker
Who am I? Who cares? So how do we decide though, Rabbi Land? You've given us all this information. It's, you know, you're a big old hypocrite. How do you want us to decide this? So whatever it is you decide, the one thing that I do want to tell you that I want you to make sure is that it's intentional. Your decision is intentional that you guys had to talk about it and you were not mean.
01:00:09
Speaker
and you didn't guilt anyone into anything, but you talked about the Christmas tree like, hey babe, do you want a Christmas tree? Yeah, actually I would really like a Christmas tree. Well, what is it that you love about the Christmas tree? And you really just sort of had that conversation about that little part of your inner lives, you know?
01:00:28
Speaker
get to know each other, be really honest with one another. I promise you, your Jewish spouse is not going to be hurt that a Christmas tree brings you feelings of Christmas jolly cheer. And if he or she is hurt by that, then he or she has their own work to do. Okay. So, and especially, and I've planned to do an episode called quote unquote, what about the children, but
01:00:48
Speaker
You know, God willing in the future, if you want children, if you're hoping to have children, you will have those children. Understand the decisions you're making now for your household so you can explain them to your kids. Because when you have kids, oh my gosh, you have so much to do, guys. You have school forms to fill out and there's so much laundry. And do you know that children want you to feed them at least three times a day every single day?
01:01:13
Speaker
and that it should be food that like doesn't come from a box. It should be food that you cooked that has like fiber and protein, I mean. And then there's the bedtime routine and the baths and the haircuts and the snot. And somebody's always sick and they're always so loud. And there's this phase that kids have where they just ask you endless questions or they say like, Emma, look at this. Emma, watch me. Abba, did you see what I can do? Abba, watch me again. And they never stopped talking.
01:01:43
Speaker
The last thing that you want to apply your brain cells to during this time when you have small children, God willing, in the house is explaining to them why you are a Jewish family with a Christmas tree.
01:01:55
Speaker
I mean, you are going to explain it to them, but you should already know that explanation. Because having little kids is hard enough, guys. It's hard enough. So listen, as cliche as it is, what needs to happen ultimately is whatever feels right for you. And I don't want whatever feels right for you to just say to your spouse, eh, whatever.
01:02:14
Speaker
Because it's your house too and you live there and you are equal partners, right? And moreover, and maybe most importantly, I think that my recommendation is make a blanket rule that this can change from year to year, right? No promises because Christmas and Christianity and Christian symbols
01:02:31
Speaker
you know, whether they're historically Christian or not, the Christmas tree is a Christian symbol in our country at least. They can come with a lot of emotions and a lot of conflicting emotions. And it could be that you think you're okay with a Christmas tree, but man, once it goes up, you're really uncomfortable that whole month of December. And you don't even realize why until you go through it with your therapist in March.
Flexibility in Holiday Traditions
01:02:52
Speaker
So make a rule that it can always change, okay? Maybe agree. Have a peaceful discussion about it in January. Maybe if you are participating in Christmas gift exchanges and Christmas parties and Christmas cookie swaps and Christmas sleigh rides and Christmas Santa sitting and all this stuff, and you know you're just going to be completely exhausted until the middle of January, guess what? People who grew up in Jewish houses understand that. We just understand it from a few months earlier from the high holidays, okay?
01:03:18
Speaker
Make a coffee date for the middle of January just to talk about the Christmas tree. And you know what? If you guys have no conflicts or nothing to air your frustrations about the Christmas tree, then you'll just have a lovely coffee date and you won't have to think about the Christmas tree anymore.
01:03:32
Speaker
So if you already have kids in the mix, like some of you already have kids in the household, maybe they're grown children, maybe they are kids who have grown up with a Christmas tree for the past several years and now, you know, there's a new Jewish partner in the relationship, you know, involve the kids, see what they think. You might decide to just table the discussion until the kids are gone or to only put up the Christmas tree if the grown children are coming home for Christmas and if they're not, don't worry about it.
01:04:00
Speaker
I just want you guys to hear this. No matter what you decide, you will not be the first family and you will not be the last family to make that decision. You will not be the first family to say, it's okay to have a Christmas tree as long as we decorate it in blue and white. You will not be the first family to say, you can only have it up for a week and a half. You won't be the first family to say, I can't stand the Christmas tree being inside the house, but maybe we can put lights on the tree outside.
01:04:29
Speaker
You're not alone. I know that it feels like you're blazing a new path, but remember, something like 70% of non-Orthodox American Jews marry somebody who's not Jewish. No matter what you're going through, I guarantee you there's another couple who has gone through something similar.
01:04:44
Speaker
To find more couples like you, by the way, there are so many groups popping up online. Shout out to 18doors.org. That's the number 18doors, like the one you walk through. 18-D-O-O-R-S.org. They used to be interfaithfamily.com. You can find a rabbi who will officiate your interfaith wedding there, and they also have a lot of information and some workshops on what it means to be part of an interfaith couple or an intercultural couple.
01:05:13
Speaker
There's also modern Jewish couples, which is run by two rabbis with the initials JG. So cute. I love them. And one of them is coming on the podcast. Spoiler. They have a lot of things going on. There are several other interfaith organizations that, thank God, the miracle of the Internet. We can hear from other couples and other families who are making these decisions also and maybe find inspiration there.
01:05:39
Speaker
And just remember, lastly, that no matter what decision you make, no matter what tradition you decide to do this year, it is not permanent. Everything in this world grows and changes, God willing. You know, people grow and change every year, every month, every day, every moment. And if we weren't doing that, we would not be alive. The same is true of Judaism.
01:06:04
Speaker
If we didn't grow and change and adapt and question and wrestle and ask ourselves, how are we going to be Jewish in a world that is mostly not Jewish, we also would cease to be alive.
01:06:20
Speaker
And God knows, we are seeing once again that we are living in a world where, just as in every other generation, enemies have risen up against us to destroy us. And despite it all, Am Yisraelchai, the Jewish people, lives. Why do we do that? Because we are continually fighting.
01:06:40
Speaker
to understand, to practice, and to maintain that which has glued us together as a culture, as a tradition, as a faith, as a people for thousands and thousands of years. And one thing I know for sure is that a Christmas tree is not going to be the thing that ruins that.
01:07:02
Speaker
So with that everyone, I hope you had a very happy Hanukkah. I hope you have a very, very Merry Christmas, or if you are in the UK, also a Happy Christmas. Next year, in the year 2024, Christmas is also the first night of Hanukkah.
01:07:18
Speaker
So next year, it might feel a little different, but we will definitely be celebrating both holidays together next year. And if the idea of that brought you stress before you listen to this episode, I hope that now, instead of seeing that as an obstacle, you see it as an opportunity.
Encouragement for Evolving Practices
01:07:36
Speaker
If you're enjoying this podcast, if it's bringing you any positive anything,
01:07:43
Speaker
any benefit to your life any change to your thinking any challenge to what it means to be having a jewish wedding please go ahead and just give it a rating it doesn't take long just drop a rating hopefully a kind rating
01:07:58
Speaker
especially if this podcast has helped you, and if you have a few extra moments, type out with your thumbs just a little review. You know, Rabbi Leanne is kind of grating to listen to you, but she brings up some good points, or Rabbi Leanne has made me laugh at least once or twice, or...
01:08:16
Speaker
Rabbi Leanne talks way too long, but there's some good stuff in there. Whatever it is, leave a little short kind review. It can just be a few words. It's not because of my ego, okay? I am at the age where my ego is what it is, guys. My opinion of myself is pretty well stuck in your
01:08:35
Speaker
iTunes review cannot make or break my day. However, if there are other people who are kind of like you, who are struggling through something that comes with planning a Jewish or interfaith wedding, even if it's Christmas trees, and they're looking for a voice,
01:08:50
Speaker
that is willing to talk about the hard stuff, that maybe feels like it understands them, that maybe makes all of this a little less scary, your rating and your review and your kind words will make it easier for those people to find and hopefully a little less scary too. So I really, really appreciate it, but more importantly, other people out there like you will benefit.
01:09:13
Speaker
So remember, there is always more learning to do. Please keep exploring. Please keep asking questions. Thank you so much for being here with me for this chat.
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:09:23
Speaker
I have loved the last hour or so of my life, and I am truly from the bottom of my heart wishing you a very, very Merry Christmas. Until next time.
01:09:34
Speaker
Well everyone, I have had the best time being your rabbi for this episode. I'm so glad you joined me for another little bit of insight into planning your perfect Jewish or interfaith wedding. Until you can smash that glass on your big day, you might as well smash that subscribe button for this podcast. I don't want you to miss a single thing.
01:09:56
Speaker
Remember, you can always find me, Rabbi Lian, on Instagram. All one word for even more tips, tricks, recommendations, and wisdom on Jewish weddings.
01:10:12
Speaker
If you want to work with me on your wedding, you'll find all the info you need at YourOhioRabbi.com. Until next time, remember, you deserve the perfect wedding for you. Don't settle for anything less.