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Chris Farmer: How to Not Get Sued (In the Funeral World)
20 Plays3 years ago
During the final disposition of the deceased, there are a variety of legal considerations that arise from some interesting, outrageous or even very intimate stories that you won’t believe actually happens for families and relations. For this reason, to avoid any disputes among the family members, it is critical to have some instructions written clearly on how to handle the remains.
Jennifer sits down with Chris Farmer in this episode of The Glam Reaper to get some legal insights about the funeral industry and the people they serve. Chris has 15 years of experience in providing legal advice to funeral homes, cemeteries, crematoriums and industry suppliers throughout North America.
LITTLE NUGGETS OF GOLD:
- Jennifer's introduction of the guest Chris Farmer and how they have known each other for quite some time.
- About Chris Farmer's background as a lawyer and eventual role as the funeral industry's legal advisor.
- Chris' thoughts on why there is a stigma around lawyers and funeral directors.
- Some very interesting, outrageous and intimate cases that Chris Farmer has handled for the funeral industry. (...Some of them you may not believe actually happens.)
- What precautions should funeral homes and crematoriums take to protect themselves from litigation?
- How important is the chain of custody of documentation when a body is going to be cremated?
- Chris' insights on the new methods of disposition and what can make people gravitate to any of those?
- What is the one thing Chris Farmer would change in the funeral industry?
- Jennifer asks Chris a daring question on what his funeral song would be.
- Some last thoughts Chris wants to share to the listeners.
Connect with Jennifer/The Glam Reaper:
Facebook Page - Muldowney Memorials
Facebook Page - Rainbow Bridge Memorials
Instagram - @muldowneymemorials & @jennifermuldowney
Twitter - @TheGlamReaper
Email us here: glamreaperpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, my name is Jennifer, aka The Glam Reaper, and today's episode, we are getting into all things legal, lots of fun and interesting facts and some funny stories as well.
00:00:11
Speaker
And I think we're going to have to get this guest back on.
00:00:13
Speaker
So without further ado, let's take it away.
00:00:25
Speaker
All right, so hello and welcome to another episode of the Glam Reaper podcast.
00:00:31
Speaker
Today we have one of my favorite people in the entire world, not least the funeral industry, and that is Chris Farmer of The Farmer Firm.
00:00:41
Speaker
Also recently just got an amazing promotion to the NFDA General Council.
00:00:46
Speaker
So I would like to extend a fabulous and warm welcome to Chris.
00:00:51
Speaker
Welcome.
00:00:52
Speaker
Thank you very much.
00:00:53
Speaker
Glad to be here.
Chris Farmer's Career Journey
00:00:54
Speaker
I just don't know why it's taken me so long to be a guest on your show.
00:00:57
Speaker
I mean, I've been listening for so long and I keep waiting for the invite and I guess you ran out of guests and now I get to go, right?
00:01:04
Speaker
That's true.
00:01:05
Speaker
We're like 23 episodes in and we're like, yeah, let's get Brinkers on board.
00:01:10
Speaker
Got to the bottom of the barrel.
00:01:13
Speaker
I will say, I do say everyone's my favorite guest.
00:01:15
Speaker
No, I'm joking.
00:01:16
Speaker
Well, you didn't have to tell me that.
00:01:19
Speaker
You didn't have to tell and say it out loud.
00:01:22
Speaker
Well, I always believe in open and transparency on the Glamour River podcast, so what can I say?
00:01:28
Speaker
Now, you and I know each other from quite a while.
00:01:31
Speaker
I think it's back in 2006.
00:01:32
Speaker
Oh my God, are we getting that old?
00:01:36
Speaker
Is it that long ago?
00:01:37
Speaker
Wow, yeah.
00:01:39
Speaker
Oh my God, what's this?
00:01:40
Speaker
The international reception, right?
00:01:43
Speaker
Yes, because I was an international person.
00:01:45
Speaker
Well, I still kind of am, even though I live in the States now, but
00:01:48
Speaker
Anyway, we have formed a fabulous friendship since then.
00:01:52
Speaker
And Chris does amazing things.
00:01:54
Speaker
You are a lawyer above all else.
00:01:56
Speaker
I mean, you know, well, I guess you're a dad and a husband and all those things we're supposed to say that you are as well.
00:02:01
Speaker
But you are a lawyer, a legal advisor to the funeral community at large.
00:02:08
Speaker
How has that been for you?
00:02:10
Speaker
How many years have you been doing it?
00:02:12
Speaker
And yeah, give us a bit of background on you.
00:02:14
Speaker
So I've been doing that advising funeral service for about 20 years.
00:02:18
Speaker
When I was a baby lawyer, I did medical malpractice defense and employer's liability fatality cases.
00:02:25
Speaker
Very technical, very, very interesting cases.
00:02:28
Speaker
But I also started doing work here in Houston for a little company called SCI.
00:02:33
Speaker
You might have heard of them.
00:02:34
Speaker
So I started doing work for them and had the opportunity to go in-house with them and handle all their litigation internationally.
00:02:41
Speaker
I did that for five years.
00:02:42
Speaker
I really got to know the profession.
00:02:44
Speaker
I really got to know the people and I just loved it.
00:02:47
Speaker
I mean, every matter I was dealing with was interesting.
00:02:50
Speaker
The people were fantastic and it was really, it was really satisfying to be able to represent and counsel people who were doing what they were doing as a calling instead of just as a job.
00:03:02
Speaker
You know, I mean, I knew that everybody I talked to truly had a deep passion for taking care of families.
00:03:09
Speaker
and it was really great to be able to help them do their job better.
00:03:13
Speaker
So I did that for about five years and went out in private practice with a medium-sized firm here in town and had kind of started their funeral service practice there.
00:03:22
Speaker
I was, during the same time, I was general counsel for the Cremation Association in North America, and I was general counsel for the Texas Funeral Directors Association.
00:03:31
Speaker
And I spent just a ton of my time writing and speaking and traveling and,
00:03:37
Speaker
Really got to know people outside of SCI in the profession and really got to know people all over North America and the world.
00:03:45
Speaker
And it was just, it was great.
00:03:46
Speaker
Had a great time.
00:03:48
Speaker
I had an opportunity to go in-house with Carriage Services to run corporate development for them.
00:03:53
Speaker
And I did that for a short period of time.
00:03:55
Speaker
It wasn't really the right fit for me.
00:03:57
Speaker
So I went back out, started my own law firm.
00:04:01
Speaker
I've been doing that for about six, seven years now and having a blast, really enjoying it.
00:04:06
Speaker
And then as of January 1, I'm also the general counsel for the National Funeral Directors Association.
00:04:13
Speaker
So doing both jobs there, advising
00:04:15
Speaker
the association board and then also the members and then being available if they need more than, you know, somebody needs more than just a 15 minute phone call with me.
00:04:25
Speaker
So I'm able to represent anyone in the funeral service industry and couldn't be happier.
00:04:31
Speaker
So what you're basically telling us is you're a hotshot.
00:04:35
Speaker
Just in summarizing all of that, you're a hotshot.
00:04:38
Speaker
No, what I'm basically telling you is I can't say no.
00:04:41
Speaker
And so I have like three full-time jobs and I just keep working.
00:04:45
Speaker
That's what I do.
Perceptions of the Funeral Industry
00:04:46
Speaker
I still manage to order wine and look after the chihuahuas.
00:04:49
Speaker
I do my best.
00:04:52
Speaker
I do want to touch on something that you mentioned way back, which is something that I actively try and bring to media attention whenever I can, which is, you know, you said that people in this community, it's a calling.
00:05:05
Speaker
the funeral community industry whatever words we want to use to describe it and I do sometimes talk about that in a topical sense but they've been called cowboys so many times by the media you know they're robbing people left and right all of that sort of stuff I'm sure as legal counsel I'm sure you've seen a lot you've probably heard a lot of things no doubt you've probably defended or maybe been the opposing I don't know but
00:05:32
Speaker
What is the craziest you've ever heard?
00:05:35
Speaker
Because I'm sure there has to be, especially, no offense to Americans in America.
00:05:39
Speaker
I mean, come on.
00:05:40
Speaker
There has to be some like skeletons in the coverage.
00:05:44
Speaker
No pun intended.
00:05:45
Speaker
Well, I want to address what you said.
00:05:47
Speaker
And it's very interesting.
00:05:48
Speaker
You discussed three very specific areas of professions.
00:05:53
Speaker
Funeral service.
00:05:55
Speaker
lawyers, and media.
00:05:56
Speaker
Now, if you talk about the three groups of people that have this, you know, kind of stigma about what they do, those are three of the top ones, right?
00:06:06
Speaker
And it's interesting that the media talks bad about lawyers and talks bad about funeral directors, okay?
00:06:11
Speaker
But I think it's because of the media that people don't like lawyers and people don't like funeral directors.
00:06:16
Speaker
Because I think lawyers and funeral directors are very similar in that
00:06:20
Speaker
People don't people say, oh, I don't like funeral directors, except my guy.
00:06:23
Speaker
My guy's good.
00:06:24
Speaker
I love him.
00:06:24
Speaker
He took care of my family.
00:06:26
Speaker
My guy, my girl, they're the ones that I really that I would do.
00:06:29
Speaker
I trust them.
00:06:30
Speaker
Same with lawyers.
00:06:32
Speaker
Everybody hates lawyers except for their guy, their girl.
00:06:34
Speaker
They're my lawyers the best.
00:06:36
Speaker
I think that it's the media that creates this whole stigma.
00:06:39
Speaker
So I think in general, there's way more good apples than there are bad apples by a factor of 100.
00:06:46
Speaker
So I think a lot of that is about misconception.
00:06:49
Speaker
A lot of that is, you know, you're never going to hear, you know, tonight at 10, local funeral director serves his family wonderfully and had no complaints.
00:06:57
Speaker
You're not going to hear it, right?
00:06:58
Speaker
You're going to hear all this crazy stuff out there.
00:07:00
Speaker
We do try.
00:07:02
Speaker
And, you know, I think it's that's just the nature of the beast.
00:07:05
Speaker
You know, it is what it is.
00:07:06
Speaker
I don't expect to hear, you know, NBC talking about things that didn't go wrong.
00:07:10
Speaker
But sensationalism, like even I just asked you, like, tell us the worst thing because nobody wants to hear about the best thing, you know, it really is.
00:07:20
Speaker
And you know what?
00:07:20
Speaker
You're you're so right, because even lawyers like to me, any lawyers and I'm actually working on a memorial for a lawyer at the moment, potentially having the New York Bar Association.
00:07:29
Speaker
And it's like, I walked into the building and was like, oh my God, look at all these books.
00:07:33
Speaker
I could never be a lawyer.
00:07:34
Speaker
Like, I'm like, no way.
00:07:36
Speaker
No, thank you.
00:07:37
Speaker
It's so funny because, you know, all these professions and stuff, it definitely is a calling.
00:07:42
Speaker
And, you know, it's not to sound saintly or, you know, like a spiritual calling, whatever, you know, mumbo jumbo you want to say.
00:07:49
Speaker
It's that you have to genuinely love what you do.
00:07:51
Speaker
And those people are 100% not cowboys and
00:07:55
Speaker
going to do right by the families and stuff.
00:07:57
Speaker
But we do all love the sensational stories.
00:07:59
Speaker
I mean, you know, and that's where the media come in.
00:08:01
Speaker
And you're absolutely right.
00:08:02
Speaker
They blow it out of proportion.
00:08:04
Speaker
And I mean, there was bodies piling up in Brooklyn during COVID.
00:08:08
Speaker
You know, it's, but anyway, tell us, come on, give us a good story.
00:08:12
Speaker
So back to the original question.
00:08:14
Speaker
Way to stake on task.
00:08:16
Speaker
I can't divert you there.
Challenges in Funeral Services
00:08:18
Speaker
You know, I have seen some very,
00:08:22
Speaker
Very interesting cases, things that just, you just almost can't believe they're true.
00:08:28
Speaker
A large part of the problems that I've seen, it's kind of like a perfect storm scenario.
00:08:33
Speaker
You have a situation where you've got family dispute, which is the genesis of almost all of the problems that I see.
00:08:41
Speaker
You have a funeral director or a funeral home that is either short staffed or overworked or something going on there.
00:08:50
Speaker
And it's usually just a situation of facts where there's not one thing that causes it to go crazy, but it's kind of a consolidation of the perfect storm of things going on.
00:09:00
Speaker
I think another thing that's a big issue, that big reason why people have concerns about funeral service is that it's something that the general public doesn't want to talk about.
00:09:11
Speaker
They don't want to think about death.
00:09:12
Speaker
They don't want to talk about death.
00:09:14
Speaker
And it's one of these things that just kind of out of sight, out of mind, and there's a fear
00:09:18
Speaker
That it really comes from a not understanding what we do in funeral service.
00:09:23
Speaker
So, for example, with regard to cremation, you know, I get a lot of these aren't my loved ones cremated remains claims.
00:09:30
Speaker
There's a lot of that because they don't understand, you know, they're just there's this inherent fear in that about it.
00:09:37
Speaker
So there's a lot of there's a lot of concerns about that.
00:09:41
Speaker
I have had cases and a lot of these things you've heard in the profession and I'm, and I have had them verified firsthand.
00:09:49
Speaker
Had cases where the, I have a client that calls and say, first of all, can I, can I talk about things that are a little adult oriented on here?
00:09:57
Speaker
I just want to make sure we're good.
00:09:59
Speaker
You can curse on everything.
00:10:01
Speaker
No, I know it's not about cursing.
00:10:02
Speaker
It's just about stories that are just like, Oh geez.
00:10:04
Speaker
Okay.
00:10:05
Speaker
You know, we've had the case where I get called by my client and they say,
00:10:10
Speaker
Uh, well, we're doing a removal and we got called and the family's out of town and we went to go do the removal and the dad slash husband is in full drag.
00:10:21
Speaker
And what do we do?
00:10:22
Speaker
How do we do this?
00:10:23
Speaker
How do we handle this?
00:10:24
Speaker
There's a lot of very intimate situations that funeral homes, funeral directors have to handle and their discretion.
00:10:32
Speaker
They try very hard to do everything they can to be discreet and understand that sometimes we don't get to pick when we die.
00:10:39
Speaker
Sometimes we're in very vulnerable situations.
00:10:44
Speaker
I've had one circumstance that I had verified from multiple sources where a woman called and said, these are not my husband's cremated remains.
00:10:52
Speaker
She was adamant and we were trying to figure out why.
00:10:54
Speaker
And she said, because my husband was black and these cremated remains were white.
00:10:59
Speaker
And for us that deal with cremation, of course that makes sense.
00:11:03
Speaker
But for people that don't know, have never seen cremated remains, they don't know that.
00:11:08
Speaker
And it's this thing that's just, it's that fear and lack of understanding that can cause problems.
00:11:13
Speaker
I've seen stories where people complain about, oh my gosh, these cremated remains, they're green.
00:11:19
Speaker
And it's not because they were from Ireland.
00:11:21
Speaker
It's because that if you have leather that's been tanned when it's cremated, a lot of times people, biker jackets, they want to be having cremated.
00:11:29
Speaker
That comes off with a green hue to them.
00:11:32
Speaker
So, you know, it's the fear and lack of understanding that can cause a lot of concerns.
00:11:38
Speaker
And I think a lot of times that I've seen funeral directors get in trouble when they
00:11:44
Speaker
They're trying to protect the family.
00:11:45
Speaker
They're trying to protect their interests.
00:11:47
Speaker
And sometimes they're not as forthcoming as they should be with claims, with things that are going on because they're trying to protect the family.
00:11:54
Speaker
And I just tell them, you just got to be totally transparent.
00:11:58
Speaker
You have to let them know what's going on.
00:11:59
Speaker
You've got to give them all that information, even if it means something that may not be exactly what they want to hear.
00:12:05
Speaker
That's really the best way.
00:12:06
Speaker
So yeah, there's nonstop stories.
00:12:12
Speaker
Even I know in my little bit of experience, and I don't necessarily always deal with these more eragous, I guess, stories and families and things.
00:12:22
Speaker
But I know for a fact of families who say the dad has died and, you know, was in bed with two other mistresses and, you know, the wife was out of town or that, you know, one wife was in one country and then another wife heard that he had died and she's like, no, I'm his wife.
00:12:38
Speaker
And then there's a whole, I mean, it's fun and shits and giggles like it's, you know, it's funny from the funeral homes perspective, it puts them in a very difficult situation.
00:12:49
Speaker
Because the, you know, you just mentioned the two wives.
00:12:52
Speaker
I've had that happen multiple times where, you know, the husband passes away, the wife comes in and says, I want to take care of my husband's remains.
00:12:59
Speaker
And then the next day, another wife comes in and says, no, that's my husband.
00:13:02
Speaker
And the funeral home is like, well, what do we do?
00:13:04
Speaker
You know, we have two marriage certificates.
00:13:05
Speaker
How do we handle this?
00:13:06
Speaker
And, you know, it puts them in a very difficult situation because they're there to serve the family.
00:13:11
Speaker
And
00:13:12
Speaker
they can't be making legal determinations and who's right and who's wrong.
00:13:15
Speaker
So, you know, it's a very interesting, difficult situation.
00:13:20
Speaker
It is.
00:13:20
Speaker
And it's, you know, it's kind of terrifying a little bit because it's such a final, final thing.
00:13:24
Speaker
Like, you know, burial, I guess, you know, they can be taken back out and, you know, exhumed and all that stuff.
00:13:30
Speaker
But like cremation, I ain't no going back from cremation.
00:13:33
Speaker
And so,
00:13:34
Speaker
If by God's, you know, whatever way you've gone down that path and all of a sudden a second wife or a third husband or whatever rears his ugly head, then you've got a serious problem on your hands.
00:13:44
Speaker
But it's kind of terrifying, to be fair.
00:13:47
Speaker
I mean, for funeral homeowners and crematorium owners, there's a lot of litigation there, like a lot of.
00:13:53
Speaker
Yeah, cremation is the bell that cannot be unrung.
00:13:58
Speaker
is what I say.
00:13:59
Speaker
And I try to tell everybody, you've got to make sure that you dot your I's, cross your T's and document everything ahead of time.
00:14:04
Speaker
Because, you know, if you are questioned, you need to be able to show that you did everything right.
00:14:09
Speaker
And a lot of these states now have statutes that say that we have the right to rely on the representations of someone who says they have the right to control.
00:14:17
Speaker
Because otherwise, I mean, we don't know any better.
00:14:20
Speaker
You know, it's not the days where the funeral home is serving a small community where they know everyone.
00:14:26
Speaker
You know, in fact, that's that's the exception rather than the rule.
00:14:29
Speaker
Now, they don't know most of the people they serve.
00:14:31
Speaker
And so when you hear some of these stories of like, oh, they cremated a black woman instead of a white woman.
00:14:36
Speaker
How is the funeral home supposed to know that most of the time?
00:14:39
Speaker
I mean, it's not like they know these people ahead of time and they just say, OK, well, how am I?
00:14:43
Speaker
You know, it seems outrageous in the media, but the reality is they they may not know that.
00:14:48
Speaker
So there's a lot of that.
00:14:50
Speaker
It's difficult and the funeral homes really have to be careful.
00:14:53
Speaker
They've got to dot their I's, cross their T's.
00:14:55
Speaker
They've got to make sure everything's documented.
00:14:57
Speaker
And so a lot of times the families get frustrated because why am I filling out all these forms?
00:15:02
Speaker
You know, this is silly.
00:15:03
Speaker
And it's just like, no, we're here.
00:15:05
Speaker
This is to protect you.
00:15:07
Speaker
We want to make sure that we're doing everything the right way.
00:15:09
Speaker
So
00:15:10
Speaker
Now tell us though, for like, as I call it, Joe Public or Joe Bloggs on the street, like what are the precautions that funeral homes and the crematoriums are supposed to take if they're, you know, like just to give, say, John, who's at home maybe listening to this, you know, okay, if he puts his dad into a funeral, you know, and they're getting cremated, like what are those steps?
00:15:31
Speaker
Like what, do we just chuck somebody into the fire, light her up and away we go?
00:15:36
Speaker
The answer to that is no, that's not at all what happens.
00:15:40
Speaker
It depends on the state.
00:15:41
Speaker
So each state has what's called a disposition statute, which gives guidance to who has the right to control.
00:15:48
Speaker
And they're all a little different.
00:15:49
Speaker
It's state law based.
00:15:50
Speaker
It's not federal.
00:15:51
Speaker
And generally the law starts with it's a hierarchy of who has the right to control.
00:15:56
Speaker
The first is usually going to be the written instructions of the deceit.
00:15:59
Speaker
OK, so so if you do a pre need or if you know specifically what you want, you can give those instructions very specifically as here.
00:16:07
Speaker
This is what I want.
00:16:08
Speaker
And that's usually going to be what's honored first and foremost.
00:16:11
Speaker
Second is an assignment of the right to control by the decedent.
00:16:14
Speaker
So if the decedent says, I am going to, I want Jennifer to control, have the right to control my remains when I die.
00:16:21
Speaker
You can put it to, you can give it to your spouse or you can give it to your neighbor or somebody you just met.
00:16:28
Speaker
It's, it's, it really is about, I mean, you can, it's really about having the person have the right to control their own disposition.
00:16:37
Speaker
If there aren't those in place, it will usually go to a hierarchy of spouse, the children, the parents,
00:16:46
Speaker
And then so forth down the line, usually, you know, with a next of kin kind of hierarchy on there.
00:16:50
Speaker
So that's typically how it works.
00:16:53
Speaker
Every state's a little different.
00:16:54
Speaker
Some states, for example, would require one.
00:16:58
Speaker
If you have multiple persons, let's say there's multiple kids.
00:17:00
Speaker
Some states require only one child to authorize something.
00:17:04
Speaker
Some states require a majority and some states require all.
00:17:07
Speaker
It's a little different from state to state, but it's really just the guidelines that the funeral homes have to say, you know, we don't get to make this decision.
00:17:16
Speaker
So then the funeral homes will say, okay, I follow this disposition statute.
00:17:21
Speaker
I have the written instructions or I have the spouse.
00:17:24
Speaker
And quite often it's not that cut and dry.
00:17:27
Speaker
I have right now, I'm dealing with a case where from this morning where we have multiple written instructions from the decedent and they are contradictory.
00:17:36
Speaker
And so my client's like, what do I do?
00:17:38
Speaker
How do I, you know, which one should govern?
00:17:41
Speaker
And I said, I can tell you what I think.
00:17:44
Speaker
but you should not do anything because these are legal forms.
00:17:49
Speaker
You have, there is a, both of them have valid claims and this needs to be determined by a judge.
00:17:55
Speaker
You know, this is, this is something that it's not up for us to decide.
00:17:58
Speaker
And it's,
00:17:59
Speaker
You know, sometimes that makes it more difficult and more expensive for the families and for the funeral homes.
00:18:05
Speaker
So, you know, the most important thing I can tell people, and I'm sure you have said this more often than not, you know, all the time is make sure that you make clear what your wishes are ahead.
00:18:16
Speaker
You know, and it's not about going in and having to necessarily spend tens of thousands of dollars on a funeral.
00:18:22
Speaker
It's just...
00:18:24
Speaker
If you have something, if you think that there's going to be a dispute, if you've got family issues, make sure you make your wishes clear, crystal clear and make sure everyone knows what they are.
00:18:35
Speaker
And that's really the best thing you can do so that you can make sure that you don't have
00:18:39
Speaker
your family can focus on taking care of your remains and memorializing your memory and thinking about all the good stuff instead of fighting over silly things.
00:18:48
Speaker
It's just really the best advice I can give to the public.
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah, 100%.
00:18:52
Speaker
It's so important.
00:18:53
Speaker
And I'm glad you reiterated it from a legal point of view, because it really, really is.
00:18:57
Speaker
It's so crucial.
00:18:58
Speaker
And it's so heartbreaking as well for, I'm sure for you, but for funeral directors and
00:19:03
Speaker
and all of us involved to watch families just fall apart and tear each other apart over something so small that could have been resolved and just wasn't.
00:19:12
Speaker
Now, in terms of the body going for cremation, like how do they follow that it's Jennifer Muldowney going all the way in and that it's her remains coming out?
00:19:20
Speaker
Tell us a bit about that.
00:19:22
Speaker
So, chain of custody.
00:19:24
Speaker
So you basically want to document from when the funeral establishment receives the remains or removes the remains
00:19:32
Speaker
until when the cremated remains are returned back to the family.
00:19:36
Speaker
You really want to have a chain of custody that shows documentation from every step in the process, whether they were, you know, the removal paperwork, the transfer paperwork, if they were put in refrigeration for a certain period of time.
00:19:49
Speaker
You know, if there was an embalming, you want to have that documented.
00:19:52
Speaker
Obviously, the crematory logs and then the returning of the cremated remains.
00:19:55
Speaker
You want to make sure that you can know, okay, they were locked away here until the family showed up on this day and this is the person who picked it up.
00:20:02
Speaker
you know, have them sign off, document all that stuff.
00:20:04
Speaker
So obviously, I think I'm sure you've talked about properly cremated and processed cremated remains cannot be identified from a genetic perspective.
00:20:13
Speaker
The processing and the heat combined destroys all viable DNA.
00:20:18
Speaker
And so the only way that you can show that these were my loved ones cremated remains is by the chain of custody documentation.
00:20:25
Speaker
So it's important to show for crematories and funeral homes to show, hey, this is what we did and we did the right thing and we can document it from start to finish.
00:20:35
Speaker
From a consumer's point of view, that's probably a little bit terrifying because it's kind of like you're really trusting that these remains you're getting back are
00:20:43
Speaker
who they're telling you they are.
Innovations in Funeral Methods
00:20:45
Speaker
I mean, that is a little bit terrifying.
00:20:46
Speaker
What do you make of sort of all the new, you know, we've got burial cremation, we all know that, but all these new methods of disposition that are coming up, like you've got the composting and the water cremation and stuff like that.
00:20:57
Speaker
And I mean, what do you, I guess this is a two part question, like what do you see as the future for that?
00:21:02
Speaker
And equally, you know, are they better in terms of tracking and genetic and DNA and all that testing?
00:21:08
Speaker
Are they any better in that?
00:21:10
Speaker
I know they're better for the environment, but yeah, what's your thoughts on all that?
00:21:13
Speaker
First of all, you know, I'm a capitalist.
00:21:16
Speaker
And I think that if there are things that families want, things that families see value in, then it is in our interest as a profession to be able to provide them those things, as long as they're safe.
00:21:30
Speaker
And as long as they're, you know, it's within reason, right?
00:21:33
Speaker
Within the bounds of health and safety kind of thing.
00:21:35
Speaker
I think they're fantastic.
00:21:36
Speaker
I love the fact that there's so many options.
00:21:39
Speaker
You know, I think that people really gravitated toward cremation, not because they were cheap, not because they didn't want to spend money on their, on their loved ones.
00:21:47
Speaker
I think people gravitated toward cremation because a lot of people didn't see the value in a, you know, $8,000 box you're going to see once and stick in the ground.
00:21:56
Speaker
Now I'm not knocking caskets.
00:21:58
Speaker
I think there's some beautiful caskets out there and I think it's phenomenal.
00:22:01
Speaker
And you, you know, I,
00:22:03
Speaker
I would love to have that as kind of a, you know, eternal resting place.
00:22:06
Speaker
But I think some people just don't see that and that's okay.
00:22:10
Speaker
And so I think people went to cremation because it was a value
00:22:15
Speaker
proposition.
00:22:15
Speaker
It wasn't about trying to spend less.
00:22:18
Speaker
And I think that's really true because I've seen a lot of people that chose cremation spending $10,000 on parties and memorializations and these, you know, celebrations of life.
00:22:30
Speaker
And it's like, they weren't being cheap.
00:22:31
Speaker
They just didn't see the value.
00:22:33
Speaker
And when you can give them something in which they see value, they'll spend the money.
00:22:38
Speaker
And so whether it's, you know, alkaline hydrolysis or whether it's,
00:22:42
Speaker
you know, shooting somebody's remains to the outer space or printing them in a record.
00:22:48
Speaker
It's about finding value for the consumers.
00:22:49
Speaker
That's our job.
00:22:51
Speaker
And so I'm for whatever the consumers wanna do.
00:22:55
Speaker
I do think that there is inherent value in funeral service professionals that maybe the general public doesn't understand.
00:23:04
Speaker
And they won't understand until they go through the process.
00:23:07
Speaker
My dad died when I was in college.
00:23:10
Speaker
And I didn't want to go to visitation.
00:23:12
Speaker
I didn't want to do any of that stuff.
00:23:14
Speaker
I wanted to only remember him alive.
00:23:17
Speaker
And I think that I missed a very valuable opportunity to go through the grieving process.
00:23:21
Speaker
And I think it
00:23:22
Speaker
kind of delayed my entire process for some years after that.
00:23:27
Speaker
And so I see the value now in what I do for visitation, for services, for things that people may say, I don't see value in that.
00:23:36
Speaker
I think it's important for the funeral directors to be able to convey that message and express that to people.
00:23:42
Speaker
And even though they may not see value in it initially, to try and say, I think you should do this because I think here's where you're going to end up.
00:23:48
Speaker
Now, at the end of the day, if the consumer says, yeah, we can do that, but I want to shoot his cremated remains into space, then that's okay too.
00:23:55
Speaker
So I think it's a balancing act between what the consumer wants and what the consumer doesn't know, but really needs.
00:24:03
Speaker
And so it's, to me, that's how it works.
00:24:05
Speaker
As far as the future, you know, there's so much going on right now.
00:24:08
Speaker
There's so many things that are, people are trying to find value propositions and come up with the next great idea.
00:24:15
Speaker
You know, I'm working with
00:24:16
Speaker
several states on natural organic reduction.
00:24:19
Speaker
And that's the big thing right now.
00:24:20
Speaker
That's the newest thing on the block.
00:24:22
Speaker
And that's, you know, it's, it's interesting.
00:24:24
Speaker
Basically the process is it's composting reduces you down to actually dirt.
00:24:30
Speaker
And so that's something that people, some people love and other people are horrified by it.
00:24:34
Speaker
And it's, that's okay.
00:24:35
Speaker
You know, it's, it's, it's what people want for themselves.
00:24:38
Speaker
So I don't know what's next, but it's, I'm all for all of those things.
00:24:44
Speaker
And as far as the,
00:24:46
Speaker
the genetic identification, I'm pretty sure that with alkaline hydrolysis, that's not, I don't think there's DNA recoverable in that as far as the natural organic reduction.
00:24:55
Speaker
I would imagine there is, but I just, I'm not sure.
00:24:59
Speaker
I don't, I don't know about that.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it's exactly, you know, as you said, the people seeing value in different things.
00:25:05
Speaker
There's always going to be
00:25:07
Speaker
a crowd that would be against burial, a crowd against cremation, a crowd against alkaline, a crowd against, it doesn't matter what you know, you invent.
00:25:14
Speaker
And that this goes across the board.
00:25:16
Speaker
It's not even the funeral innovation.
00:25:18
Speaker
It's everything.
00:25:19
Speaker
There's always going to be a for and against and a maybe.
00:25:22
Speaker
People sit on the edge and sort of, you know, we'll wait and see how much this takes off.
00:25:26
Speaker
So yeah, I completely agree with you on that.
00:25:29
Speaker
Now, tell me this, what is the one thing you would change about the funeral, whether it's legal,
00:25:36
Speaker
or otherwise that you would change about the funeral industry as it is now?
00:25:41
Speaker
What's the one thing you would change if you had all the power in the world, Mr. Hotshot?
00:25:46
Speaker
I think that on the legal side, I think we're facing a real challenge right now with having a disposition statute that's too rigid, that does not allow for default provisions.
00:25:59
Speaker
I think it's a little over half that have some kind of a, if this person doesn't, then we can kick down to the next one.
00:26:06
Speaker
And I'm finding funeral homes are really, really struggling.
00:26:09
Speaker
You know, they're saying, hey, look, the husband died.
00:26:12
Speaker
The statute says the wife has the right to control, period.
00:26:15
Speaker
There's no default on that.
00:26:16
Speaker
And they're saying, well, the wife's, you know, in the hospital with COVID on a ventilator and we can't get her approval for anything.
00:26:23
Speaker
And there is no provision that would allow the next person in line to step up or anything like that.
00:26:28
Speaker
And so they're stuck.
00:26:29
Speaker
I mean, the family's stuck.
00:26:31
Speaker
The family says, well, look, we will, you know, the kids say we want to take care of dad.
00:26:35
Speaker
Okay.
00:26:35
Speaker
But you don't have that right under the law.
00:26:37
Speaker
We can't give you the right under the law.
00:26:40
Speaker
And so it's just, it's a really difficult situation.
00:26:43
Speaker
So on the legal side of things, I really would like to see all States have some kind of a provision
00:26:49
Speaker
about being able to have somebody else take control if somebody is either unwilling or unable to do so.
00:26:57
Speaker
I know we were working with South Dakota this past week, working with them.
00:27:01
Speaker
They're getting the NFDA model disposition law passed and they had questions about that very subject.
00:27:06
Speaker
So talk to them about that.
00:27:08
Speaker
So I know it's out there.
00:27:09
Speaker
I know people understand that.
00:27:11
Speaker
That's what I would like to see the states that don't have something like that in there, give them that guidance.
00:27:16
Speaker
And then as far as the funeral home side,
00:27:19
Speaker
I think that there it's a very traditional old fashioned industry and that's great.
00:27:25
Speaker
Not industry, profession.
00:27:26
Speaker
So don't say industry, profession.
00:27:28
Speaker
And I think that's great.
00:27:30
Speaker
But I think some people in the profession need to have a little more open mind about what families want.
00:27:38
Speaker
I think some of them are a little old fashioned and I think that they think there may be only one way to do things.
00:27:43
Speaker
And I know there's people like you leading the way to change that.
00:27:46
Speaker
And I think when people realize that people are going to grow a lot, some people are going to gravitate toward your way of doing things and that they're missing out on opportunities to serve families.
00:27:55
Speaker
I think that they're going to change their mind.
00:27:56
Speaker
But I think that, I think there's a good set section of our, of our profession that really needs to understand that it's not about what the funeral director wants.
00:28:06
Speaker
It's about what the family wants.
00:28:08
Speaker
And it's our job to educate them on what their options are.
00:28:12
Speaker
And to, you know, it doesn't have to be, like I said, it's a balancing act, right?
00:28:16
Speaker
You want cremation.
00:28:17
Speaker
Great.
00:28:18
Speaker
Did you know that you could have a service with or without the body present prior to cremation?
00:28:22
Speaker
Really?
00:28:22
Speaker
We could do that?
00:28:23
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:28:24
Speaker
That way you can say goodbye.
00:28:25
Speaker
You can have everybody, you know, do that and still have cremation.
00:28:28
Speaker
Those are the kind of things that a lot of people don't know.
00:28:31
Speaker
So being able to really provide the family with those kind of answers and options, I think is the most important thing that our profession can do right now.
00:28:40
Speaker
Oh wow, okay.
Personal Touches and Humor
00:28:42
Speaker
Well, last question for Mr. Professional.
00:28:46
Speaker
What is going to be your funeral song?
00:28:49
Speaker
Have I silenced it, ladies and gentlemen?
00:28:51
Speaker
Holy moly.
00:28:54
Speaker
Actually, believe it or not, I've actually thought about this multiple times in the last week for various reasons.
00:29:01
Speaker
I would say... Is it going to be Beyonce who runs the world?
00:29:05
Speaker
I have several.
00:29:08
Speaker
My oldest daughter goes to a Scottish school.
00:29:12
Speaker
They have world champion... They go to Scotland and kick the Scottish people's butts in dancing and dancing.
00:29:19
Speaker
Pipe and Drum, and they are world, world champion, world class.
00:29:24
Speaker
It is phenomenal.
00:29:25
Speaker
And I'm going to pick up my daughter from school and there will be 20 bagpipers out there and band playing.
00:29:31
Speaker
I love it.
00:29:32
Speaker
It's awesome.
00:29:32
Speaker
So I definitely would have...
00:29:35
Speaker
A little Amazing Grace on the bagpipes because that will get me right here every time.
00:29:38
Speaker
That gets me, you know, like onions type stuff.
00:29:42
Speaker
So that one.
00:29:43
Speaker
And then the other one I was thinking of this week is do a little Frank, get a little My Way going.
00:29:47
Speaker
You know, I know that's very cliche and everything, but it's still pretty good.
00:29:51
Speaker
It suits certain people.
00:29:53
Speaker
You know, those are the kind of things that's like, those are the things that get to me, you know, so.
00:29:59
Speaker
Excellent.
00:30:00
Speaker
Good choices.
00:30:00
Speaker
Interesting choices.
00:30:02
Speaker
Learn something.
00:30:02
Speaker
I'm all over the place.
00:30:03
Speaker
Just, you know, I am.
00:30:06
Speaker
I still might put in a bit of Beyonce.
00:30:08
Speaker
Well, I'm going to be gone.
00:30:09
Speaker
So I don't know what's going to happen when I'm going to be gone.
00:30:11
Speaker
You know, just want to make sure and leave your plans to me.
00:30:13
Speaker
Okay.
00:30:14
Speaker
There you go.
00:30:16
Speaker
I need to plan it out.
00:30:16
Speaker
I need to put it in writing.
00:30:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:19
Speaker
I'll plan the party.
00:30:20
Speaker
They can take care of the rest.
00:30:23
Speaker
Well, thank you so much.
00:30:24
Speaker
Unless there's anything else you want to share and enlighten us with, we will let you go and get back to your very, very busy hotshot lifestyle.
00:30:32
Speaker
Well, I appreciate it.
00:30:33
Speaker
You know, I think the one thing I didn't do well, very well, and I know I wish I would have more time to tell war stories and there's tons of them.
00:30:40
Speaker
The one thing I was talking to you about earlier was, you know, if you've ever been on a jury and you're trying a case, you know that they bring in a big panel for the jury.
00:30:49
Speaker
So it's a whole bunch of people.
00:30:51
Speaker
If they need 12, they're going to bring in
00:30:53
Speaker
30 or 40 or 50.
00:30:54
Speaker
And the plaintiff's attorney will have an opportunity to ask questions.
00:30:58
Speaker
And then the defense attorney.
00:30:59
Speaker
Well, I was trying to case one time for a funeral home client of mine, and we had a big panel.
00:31:04
Speaker
It was like 50 people.
00:31:05
Speaker
And the plaintiff's attorney was asking questions and we asked questions.
00:31:08
Speaker
And then the judge got up and the judge said, you know, is there anybody that can't serve on this jury today?
00:31:15
Speaker
And this guy in the back raised his hand and said, I can't stand.
00:31:19
Speaker
And the judge said, son, I can't hear you.
00:31:20
Speaker
You need to stand up.
00:31:21
Speaker
And the guy stood up and said, Your Honor, I can't serve on this jury.
00:31:25
Speaker
And the judge said, Well, why not?
00:31:26
Speaker
And the guy said, Because my wife's at home and she's about to conceive a baby.
00:31:30
Speaker
And the judge looked at him and said, Son, I'm not sure that's what you mean, but you should probably be there either way.
00:31:35
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:31:39
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:31:40
Speaker
That took me a hot second.
00:31:43
Speaker
God damn it.
00:31:45
Speaker
I'm going to put my smarty pants on this morning.
00:31:49
Speaker
That took me a hot second.
00:31:51
Speaker
Oh, you're hilarious.
00:31:51
Speaker
All right.
00:31:53
Speaker
If anybody wants to hire a lawyer with a sense of humor that loves the bagpipes, Chris, it's been an absolute pleasure.
00:32:01
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:32:02
Speaker
And hopefully we'll get you out again soon.
00:32:03
Speaker
I promise we won't leave it till the 44th episode.
00:32:05
Speaker
Okay.
00:32:07
Speaker
Oh, I'm back anytime I can.
00:32:08
Speaker
I appreciate it.
Conclusion and Audience Engagement
00:32:20
Speaker
Well, I for one enjoyed recording that episode equally so listening to it back.
00:32:24
Speaker
So I hope you did as well.
00:32:26
Speaker
I think we're going to have to definitely get Chris back on because I know he's got a lot more juicy stories to share with you all.
00:32:33
Speaker
If you have any questions about legal anything to do with the funeral industry, please do drop us a comment.
00:32:39
Speaker
send us an email at glamreaperpodcast at gmail.com and we will be sure to get back to you.
00:32:46
Speaker
Also to pass them on to Chris if you've got anything you want to say to him or share some love.
00:32:52
Speaker
We look forward to talking to you soon.
00:32:53
Speaker
Bye bye.