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Show Me The Money: Salary Transparency with Onyx Montes
133 Plays3 years ago
This week we are joined by Onyx Montes— A museum educator and cultural worker to talk about her project, Salary Transparency! Onyx shares her insights and research on how museums and artistic environments can become salary transparent, the wage gap in creative fields, and “the fear” that enables us to share our salaries and advocate for higher pay!
See more of Onyx's work HERE!!
For all of Artpop Talk's resources, click HERE.
For more on Kimberly Drew, click HERE.
For Her First 100K and the Financial Feminist podcast, click HERE.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Art Pop Talk
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, hello, and welcome to Art Pop Talk. I'm Bianca. And I'm Gianna.
Guest Introduction: Onyx Montes
00:00:06
Speaker
This week we have an incredible guest on to talk all about the money. Money, money, money. Must be funny. In a rich man's world.
Exploring Salary Transparency and Wage Gaps
00:00:30
Speaker
Anyways, Onyx Montes tells us all about her salary transparency project and how museums can become more transparent with their wages.
00:00:39
Speaker
Yes, so we ask her questions all about the wage gap, why women are made to feel so afraid about talking about money, and how we can grow out of this adoration we have for an unpaid internship. So Gianna, are you ready to show me the money? Hmm, what little money I have? Absolutely. Oh, you're too kind. Hello, sister. Hello.
00:01:10
Speaker
How goes it? How goes it? This technically isn't my first time recording in Tulsa. I've been up here and I've had to record, but this is my first recording session. I suppose as an official resident. Ooh, I love it. I love it. You're looking sleek in the new.
00:01:29
Speaker
Tulsa HQ Tulsa headquarters, you know, thank you You know just got a nice little sweat glow from having to look at some apartment complexes in this treacherous heat We were just talking about how I feel as though not much has happened today, but I was telling Bianca the highlight of my week was probably watching Luca on Disney Plus and
00:01:58
Speaker
It was so freaking cute.
Movie Reviews: Luca
00:02:00
Speaker
I really liked it. I feel like this movie, I have yet to watch it. I'm going to watch it this weekend with Andrew, hopefully. But he was telling me this movie is just made for us, Gianna. It's about Italians. It's about merpeople and sea monsters. Is that us? Is this movie about us? The whole time. I love to think of myself as an Italian mermaid. You got long hair. You're like a mermaid.
00:02:28
Speaker
Bianca when you watch it you'll have to tell me what your thoughts but regardless it was really really beautiful and just so darling it was such like a so cute but you did have a fun week or past week you were in New York you're back home now and I hear we had a cutie little run-in with an art pop tart
00:02:49
Speaker
you guys.
Listener Appreciation
00:02:51
Speaker
I met an art pop tart in the wild and he was just so nice. I told him I was going to give him a shout out. So Matt, thank you so much for listening to this show. I was telling Gianna all about you. We love you so much. Thank you so much for listening. Matt was just
00:03:07
Speaker
so sweet. He was talking about how he listens to us when he's at the gym when he's working out. And he was just telling me about his experience with different museums and he works in theater. And it was just it was so cool. It was such a fun conversation. And I just I work really hard to make the audio sound good for you guys. Like I just need you to know how much I am like working in audacity to make our audio perfection.
00:03:35
Speaker
And he was like, your audio is so good. Like I just when I found out you weren't in the same room together, I couldn't believe it. And honestly, that just made my heart so happy. It was really, it was really, really sweet. And yeah, it was it was so it was so nice. And it was just so appreciated. So just want to say hello, Matt, for me, the highest compliment is someone listening to us at the gym, because
00:03:59
Speaker
a fellow podcast listener, that's when I burn through all my podcasts is when I'm at the gym and I listen to very particular things while I'm working out if I'm not in a music mood. So I feel as though that is a very high compliment. Truly, I feel like in the car, like that's pretty, that's, that's pretty high up there. But at the gym, that's like, whoa, you're listening to us over some, you know,
00:04:26
Speaker
crafty beats at the gym. Like that's just amazing. That is so nice. We're getting you pumped up for your, you know, hot girl, hot boy summer. Matt's on the treadmill right now. He's on the elliptical and he's like, oh, fuck yeah, this is getting me through.
00:04:42
Speaker
No, but for me, when I'm working out, I need a good podcast to distract me from my workout because typically for me, it's like 30 minutes of cardio, 30 minutes of strength training. And I mostly listen to music while I do strength training. But if I'm just on the treadmill or elliptical doing my little thing, that's when I like to listen to like friends or podcasts.
Empowerment in the Art World
00:05:06
Speaker
Yeah. So I feel like we should transition into today's topic.
00:05:12
Speaker
Our conversation with Onyx was just incredible. And we have we've had so many incredible guests on this show, but Onyx just she she made me feel so empowered to kind of take charge of my own life. And this is something that I've been talking to Gianna with just quite a bit lately. And
00:05:34
Speaker
I've been listening to the Financial Feminist podcast by her first 100K. I don't know if you've seen her on TikTok, on Instagram, but Tori, the host, is so amazing and lately I've just been feeling like I really need to get a hold of my financial path and especially being in this art world. Gianna, you and I have talked about being in debt before because of our degrees.
00:06:03
Speaker
I feel like where I'm just, I'm at a place to really get serious about my future, about my finances. And I've been in kind of a panic mode about my career and how I'm going to sustain a living. And this isn't to negate everything that I'm very grateful for, but you know, with our conversation with Onyx, we talk about this stereotype that there's no path for career advances for salary raises.
00:06:32
Speaker
that there's this stereotype about the art world where outsiders even know that we are not really making what we deserve to be making, even though the art world and museums function as a type of business. They are incredibly
00:06:48
Speaker
valuable culturally, but also hold a lot of value monetarily, which, of course, Gianna and I have also talked about in that, you know, art market episode. So I just felt so completely empowered by Onyx and our conversation. And we cannot wait to have her on again. We talked about leading a type of happy hour or a salary transparent workshop type event with her. It was just it was so amazing.
00:07:17
Speaker
Gianni, do you have any thoughts? I thought we could also, after we finished recording, we kept talking and we shared our salaries with Onyx too. So in the spirit of that, if we wanted to hit the ground running.
00:07:30
Speaker
honest with everyone yeah there was a lot that we talked about with onyx before and after we recorded and i just met onyx coincidentally and we talked about that a little bit in our interview with her but i'm sometimes i feel like the stars align and you just meet people for the right reasons and i it was truly such a blessing that we've been able to meet her i mean i just like can't believe it yeah she's really such a gem and an incredible incredible museum worker but there was so much and
00:08:00
Speaker
the art of an interview is a hard thing and it's something Bianca and I have learned throughout this process on our own and are still and are still learning but the amount of scenarios just running through my head that I have
00:08:17
Speaker
been through in my short-lived life and kind of working career experience like really just does want to make me cry and the amount of things my fellow female colleagues have had to go through and
00:08:33
Speaker
um it's just really um it's really astonishing but aside from that we did joke about having like a scary Halloween episode about all this we don't want this episode to be a downer we want this episode to be more empowering and we hope to have Onyx on and putting that energy out in the world we'll have her on for future discussions to give everyone that platform to get those conversations out of their system and to share
00:09:02
Speaker
those effed things that have happened in the workplace.
Career Challenges and Values
00:09:06
Speaker
One of the things that we had talked about after recording that we didn't really get to in the interview was so much of an interview experience. And what I have been grappling this entire year is it's all about how how do you fit into this role? How do you fit into this institution in this job role? And it's not the other way around. How does this place work for me? How do I feel about it? And
00:09:32
Speaker
it is it just is incredibly hard and a little story is I just fairly recently like a month or two ago got done with a job interviewing experience to be a design coordinator for anthropology and I did not get that job based off the criticism that I they felt like I was too serious
00:09:57
Speaker
and that they're just more of kind of like a fun going community there. And the things that I brought to the table in my four or three interviews I had with them, I was just too darn serious. So instead of
00:10:16
Speaker
like looking at that criticism as like I don't even know like what that means. Maybe that's right. Maybe I don't think that institution is a good fit for me because maybe the things that I brought to the table like talking about consumer experiences is just
00:10:33
Speaker
to is just on a different level that they're not interested in. But anyhow, I think that's a concept that we would like to explore further with Onyx. Another thing that we also didn't talk about too much was the idea that some job postings and the salaries that go with that
00:10:54
Speaker
are only feasible for people who have partners. And we were talking about an example like a year ago, San Francisco Museum of Art posted a job description and the pay like you could not afford to live in San Francisco on your own based off that pay. I mean, people who live there now can barely afford to live there. It's such a high cost of living. And one of the reasons
00:11:22
Speaker
that I am able to move to Tulsa right now and move at a home. My childhood home is because of having multiple incomes because I'm moving in with my partner. So I have taken a basically a docent position that, lucky enough, does pay $15 an hour, but it is part time. And I have taken a pay cut from working full time to part time.
00:11:52
Speaker
but I was making $15 an hour at 21C Museum Hotel. With that being said, when I first took that job, I was making $11 an hour and I had to advocate and ask for a higher pay, which in turn led to the entire kind of front desk staff that I was working with to have an increase in pay. So we were all able to then
00:12:19
Speaker
go up to $15 an hour. And it's that kind of simple aspect about asking and opening up things for conversation and dialogue that Onyx wants us to start empowering ourselves to have those conversations. And I've had a lot of experiences where I've tried to negotiate and it didn't go my way. But I was fortunate enough at 21C to have an open dialogue with management that I did really respect and in turn respected me and it led to this really great outcome.
00:12:49
Speaker
There are just so many different scenarios and so many things running through my head but that's where I am at currently and I was able to take this job and Tulsa that I will be starting soon this week because of my significant other. Going back to what you said, there are a million different things that were running through my head as we were talking to Onyx and as we kind of talked about after the recording.
00:13:19
Speaker
It's almost unbelievable that three people who work in the same field had so many of these experiences at our age. And we are very fortunate to be able to kind of think about these now and be able to hopefully create better paths for us and for people working in our fields. So I think one of the biggest kind of revelations that I had while Onyx was talking was going back to what you said, Jana, that idea of
00:13:49
Speaker
does this institution work for you?
00:13:55
Speaker
We go through this point in the conversation where Onyx is telling us about, you know, we're talking about unpaid internships and how in your field when you kind of study art and art history and you go through the academic setting, you are built and trained to think so highly of any museum who will offer you a position. And most of the time that position is going to be unpaid.
00:14:22
Speaker
all of the major art museums that we are taught to praise and lift up and as Onyx will say, you should be lucky enough to get this position. You should be so grateful to have this and I feel lately and I have been feeling this incredible sense of guilt
00:14:44
Speaker
for wanting more with my finances and for wanting to build myself a life that I envision. And her first 100K Financial Feminist podcast talks about this too, where women are taught to just feel grateful for what we have.
00:15:05
Speaker
But we add so much more value that men are advocating for themselves, and we are taught to not do that. We are taught to not advocate for not just what we want, but what we deserve, because we work hard for it. And it was such an encompassing conversation, and it led me to think about this time where I was offered what I thought was my dream internship. It was at the National Museum of Women in the Arts,
00:15:35
Speaker
And they had offered me an internship, but it was unpaid. And I was devastated that I had to turn it down. And then people in my life, these kind of figures that at the time I thought were these kind of mentors to me, you know, were telling me things that felt like contradiction. Like, oh yeah, you know what? If you would have taken that, like I know someone who took an internship there and they spent eight years at that museum.
00:16:04
Speaker
And at the time, I thought that was going to, you know, would have been the leaping point for my career. I mean, I thought that was going to break me that I wasn't able to take this internship, but I couldn't do it because I just simply could not afford to live in Washington, DC.
00:16:19
Speaker
without pay, without any pay. And the frustrating thing is that the people who are able to take those kinds of positions either come from a really high point of privilege or they're having to work extra hours somewhere else or make work a second job or a third job to also make ends meet.
00:16:39
Speaker
And that's something that I've written about in my thesis as well. There's an article I think it's Ken rich kids are rich kids the only ones who can work in the art world and at a certain point Yes, that's that's a very true. You have to either like you said come from privilege and wealth or Push yourself to know when to be able to make up the difference. So that was just such a I don't know like
00:17:05
Speaker
comforting but at the same time just like really eye-opening discussion that we have. And to go off of what you shared Gianna right now, I am making $40,000 a year and I am $51,000 in student debt. So
00:17:26
Speaker
Yeah, that is where I'm at. Yeah, just to also kind of end on these kind of encompassing themes. When you head over to Onyx's Instagram that we've linked sharing this salary transparency project,
00:17:44
Speaker
A lot of conversation is centered on this aspect of fear. And before we get into the interview, I just want to add that that fear is something that Bianca and I definitely
00:17:59
Speaker
kind of grapple with and having a platform like this.
Financial Disadvantages and Hidden Costs
00:18:04
Speaker
Throughout a job interviewing experience, I've been really fearful that having an outspoken podcast like Art Pop Talk has hindered my ability to get a full-time decent
00:18:19
Speaker
paint job in the arts and nonprofit and in museums because I've had several interviews with those platforms and I feel like it's either oh I already have this other thing going on and therefore I can't dedicate my time to something else or they have listened and
00:18:38
Speaker
it's maybe it's it's too much so with that being said that aspect of fear that i've had personally is not to be a downer it's just to say being outspoken whether it's in your institution or in your company or on your social media or a platform like
00:18:58
Speaker
that fear is something that we all experience. I experience fear in so many other different ways, like having a pre-existing condition. How is that going to affect me in the workplace? And these are things that we all deal with, and Bianca and I aren't exempt from that. Yeah. And I also don't want to diminish the fear that other people have as well. I think that fear is something that we can use
00:19:26
Speaker
to help others who have the same fear, right? So not everybody is in a position to feel like they have the power to be outspoken about this. So I think that's another point that our pop talk and this platform and what Onyx is doing is just so important because we have the power to empower other people. And if we talk about that all the time on the podcast, there's no point in talking about it unless we're gonna actually put it to use.
00:19:55
Speaker
It's just it, but it is scary. It's very scary because I feel the same way. I mean, I've been putting our pub talk on my resumes and things like that. And it's like, well, I truly don't feel like I'll ever work in a museum again, because
00:20:11
Speaker
I, one, I don't think that they would like this, what I'm saying and the critiques that I have about museums, but two, I don't know if I, you know, I know what I'm worth. And if they're not willing to.
00:20:26
Speaker
pay me or provide me with what I am worthy of, then I don't ... I don't know. Not even worthy, but what you need. Museums just don't ... This country does not know what it takes to live. Again, her first 100K financial feminist has been talking about it is expensive to be poor.
00:20:52
Speaker
There are just so many other added costs of not having money. So we'll link all of this. We are going to link Onyx's, all of her links directly in the show notes wherever you're listening. It is in the link in our Instagram, social media bios, and I'll also link all of the other people that we've talked about throughout this episode as well. So Onyx Montes is a museum educator
00:21:21
Speaker
cultural worker, and salary transparency advocate. Onyx moved by herself to the U.S. from Mexico at the age of 17 and studied art history at the University of Washington in Seattle and holds an M.A. in Museum and Exhibition Studies from the University of Illinois at Chicago. She is the first person in her family to graduate from college and is part of the inaugural Arts and Culture Leaders of Colors Fellowship by Americans for the Arts.
00:21:51
Speaker
Onyx has worked as a museum educator at the Art Institute of Chicago and the Museum of Contemporary Art of Chicago. She currently works as the social media manager for Hyde Park Art Center. Two projects she is proud of include the art history workshops she taught for incarcerated women in Mexico, as well as the publication of Anthology, Artists and Their Snacks, which she edited in collaboration with
00:22:17
Speaker
the organization United States Artists. She's an avid reader and a solo traveler with 19 countries and counting under her belt. Everyone, you're just going to love Onyx so much. Please let us know what you think. Feel free to email us at artpoptalk at gmail.com, DM us, DM Onyx with all of your questions. And with that, enjoy. We'll talk to you next week.
00:23:12
Speaker
Hello, everyone.
Onyx Montes on Pay Transparency Initiatives
00:23:14
Speaker
Welcome back. We are so excited to be joined today by Onyx Montes Onyx, we are so glad and thankful that you are here with us today. So can you introduce yourself to the listeners and tell them a little bit about why you're on the show today?
00:23:31
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. My name is Onyx Montes. I'm a social media manager and museum educator currently based in Chicago, and I'm here to talk about pay transparency and salary transparency in museums.
00:23:44
Speaker
We're so excited to have you. I ran into Onyx when I was working at the 21C in Oklahoma City. And you made me feel like such a cool kid because I was checking you into the hotel. And you were like, Oh my gosh, are you Giana from our pop talk? And I'm like, um, hi, are you an art pop? Are you all cutie?
00:24:06
Speaker
So we are really, really lucky to have you here today. So can you talk about the process that led you to choose this topic for your thesis? What about working in museums led you to this point? The reason why I wanted to do this focus on this topic was because I in 2019, I was denied a raise that I wanted.
00:24:30
Speaker
And in that, through that experience, leaving that room, you know, after I had my annual review, leaving that room, it felt very sort of like, I don't know if anger is the right word, but I felt like I knew that this could be a better, it could have been a better resolution. It could have been a process that would have been more of a collaboration instead of a thing that was just simply denied without any real explanation or thorough
00:24:58
Speaker
sort of like explanation of a pathway to how to get to this specific number that I wanted. And in addition to that, so that that experience really made me feel inspired to think that I don't want anybody else
00:25:14
Speaker
in the future, whoever will take my job to feel the way that I felt when I left that room. I didn't want this to happen to someone else. And I feel like if I hadn't had that experience, I wouldn't be as passionate as I am about this topic. That was one part. The other part was that also in 2019, Kimberly Drew, who was a former social media manager at The Met, had a keynote talk at the American Alliance of Museums annual meeting in 2019. And in that talk,
00:25:42
Speaker
She describes how finding out that her predecessor had a higher salary than her throughout her time at the museum made her realize that she was being underpaid and that it was time for her to move on. Having that information allowed her to make that conscious decision for her and for her career.
00:26:04
Speaker
And similarly, so that's the second part. Similarly, the third part that sort of like completed the puzzle for me was that in 2019, partly inspired by that talk that Kimberly had, a group of people collectively known as the Art Museum Transparency Collective put together a Google spreadsheet that was circulated in the summer of 2019, encouraging people in professionals and museums to put their data and their information as far as how much money they were making anonymously.
00:26:35
Speaker
And it really created a powerful tool to realize the vast discrepancies that there were across the board. There were people who, for instance, just focusing on roles that are closer to mine, social media managers making extremely vastly different numbers and really eye opening in many, many ways. I think it even went viral and it was widely written about. And so that was really powerful for me. I also use that.
00:27:03
Speaker
spreadsheet as a tool for me to come into that room during my annual review and sort of like have that information to show this is what I believe I should be making and sort of create a case for myself.
00:27:14
Speaker
So that was the sort of like the three parts that motivated me to focus on that, on this sort of like quest to be very vocal about transparency. And because I was going through my graduate program at the time, I decided to make it my capstone and use that as an opportunity to encourage other people to learn about it, talk about it and connect with others like we're doing now. So that's really what started it.
00:27:38
Speaker
And I'll just plug Kimberly Drew has a great little book. This is what I know about art. And I think it's been out for maybe a little over a year now, but I'll link that as well. It's a really great little book that I'd recommend, but this is such a topic that has really been pushed to the forefront during COVID as well. And not that people weren't talking about it before COVID obviously, but so I'm just, I'm really excited that
00:28:07
Speaker
that you've been able to talk about this in the way that you have. Speaking of that, let's talk about the project and the information that you are promoting on Instagram. So how has the project evolved and what are its main goals for you?
00:28:20
Speaker
The main goals are to encourage people of color in museums to talk about it, to become aware that one of the main reasons why, based on the research that I have, that I collected through a survey that I sent out in January of 2021.
00:28:37
Speaker
A lot of people are scared and fearful and sort of like afraid of retaliation. You know these museums and institutions are powerful and big and intimidating in many regards, not only for visitors but also for people who work.
00:28:52
Speaker
there. My goal is to encourage, even if I could just inspire one person to go into a room or to go up to their supervisor or to talk to their co-workers and have these conversations, I feel like that is amazing and that is really my goal because I was in that situation. I've made several mistakes and I have learned in many ways the hard way, but I am determined to
00:29:15
Speaker
look at the numbers, look at the data for instance, thinking about the role of people of color in museums, the role of women in museums and realize that there are tangible things like the pay gap that continue to impact our lives and also that there are people who are being denied races or people who maybe perhaps without having this information or really being maybe a little nervous
00:29:41
Speaker
don't really go for it and ask for more. And that to me reflects as leaving money on the table. And so that is my main goal, to encourage people in museums to be more vocal, to have these conversations and to not to challenge that sense of being afraid.
00:29:58
Speaker
Right now, the project is online. There will be a PDF version where people can download the project and really get a lot more of the meat, I guess, of the project and the heart of the research so that they can have tangible things they can say, phrases they can use, ways to look at numbers and data so that they can make a case for themselves, what happens if they are rejected or if they say no.
00:30:24
Speaker
things that could happen during the interview process, all of those things that I think because they're more tailored to museums, I hope that they will find it useful. And I also have been posting some of the survey findings that I had or collected through the survey. And one of the main things that surprised me was that also a lot of museum professionals, workers,
00:30:50
Speaker
cultural workers do not, were not aware of their protections under the NLRA, which is the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. And because they don't know that we are protected, to have these conversations, they are kind of shying away from having them. I also have a story, which I can, I don't know if this would be the right way, the right moment to tell you, but in April, so about
00:31:13
Speaker
two months ago my organization had a session where we have been talking about different kinds of equity topics so during one session we talk about hiring processes another session we talk about salary and benefits and during this salary and benefits conversation that
Inspiring Change Through Transparency
00:31:33
Speaker
we had staff-wide it was like a staff meeting a group presented sort of like where we are in comparison to other organizations like how much money we're making in comparison to other
00:31:42
Speaker
cultural organizations in Chicago, but also within the neighboring region. And one of the things that I asked during this meeting was, what is it that is preventing us from being transparent as an organization? What is it that is limiting us really from us having these conversations and realize where we are as an organization internally?
00:32:07
Speaker
The response that I got from leadership was that perhaps that would be something that could be maybe uncomfortable for some and you know, not really.
00:32:17
Speaker
maybe not really welcome for the group. And I use the chat box as a tool to let everyone know in that room that we're all legally protected from having these conversations amongst the staff. And I invited everyone to read that in the comments. And I said, I will share my salary and I'll start. I'm making, I think at the time I was making
00:32:47
Speaker
41K, said I'm making my salaries 41K. And once I put that comment in the chat box, I could see everyone sort of like, kind of like a surprise, but to, I think I was the one that was the most surprised because once I put the comment in the chat box and I revealed how much I'm making, 27 out of the 30 people on staff followed and shared their salary. So it was sort of like a great moment that revealed to us
00:33:17
Speaker
that those ideas of, oh, you know, we don't really talk about money here can be challenged. And I know that I took a big risk and I know that I, it was nerve wracking, but I felt like it was necessary because after a whole year of navigating a pandemic without, with salary freezes, with hiring freezes as well, it was urgent. And to me,
00:33:41
Speaker
these conversations of let's see where we are and let's continue the conversation and let's just kind of go around and not really have any action. It was important for me to challenge that. So I use the chat box as a way to be like, just so everyone knows, we have this federal protection and I'm gonna go and share how much I'm making. And even, you know, our executive director shared and it was something that I think it was more than anything an eye-opening galvanizing moment. And as a result, we all got raises within three weeks.
00:34:10
Speaker
That process wouldn't have happened as fast if that hadn't been the case. I guess the reason why I wanted to share this is because it only takes oftentimes one person or a group of people to take that step and be like, I'm going to challenge this fear. I'm going to talk about it. I'm going to have these conversations. And we are protected.
00:34:34
Speaker
from retaliation from these kinds of instances. And so that was something that was very eye opening for me and taught me a lot. I also, another way that I had in the past challenged this idea of like being afraid of retaliation or kind of being secretive is that I put how much money I make on my Instagram bio where anybody can go and see how much I'm making. Because to this day, there isn't a museum in the US to my knowledge that is
00:35:00
Speaker
salary transparent and so I'm hoping that soon that won't be the case anymore but until then I will make every effort to be open and you know there isn't any shame in saying how much I'm making because I want to encourage also people who are listening to realize that
00:35:18
Speaker
how much money you make does not equal how much you're worth. And so once you have that separation, it's easy to talk about these things without feeling like, you know, if I'm denied this raise, it means I'm not good enough, or it means my work is not good enough, or I mean, you know, so yeah, it was, these are two examples of, you know, little things that perhaps I know they're, I guess I don't mean like little things, but like steps that people can consider. And
00:35:44
Speaker
It was a very eye-opening moment for me and I'm really proud that I was able to experience leadership hearing and also realizing that based on all of us sharing our salaries in that chat box, we realized just how much of a gap we had.
00:36:05
Speaker
The group that presented the summary of the salary and benefits and kind of where we were and the analysis forgot to look at the pay gap with the lens on women for our own organization. And so there wasn't any really attention focused on that. And so I said, this needs to happen because we need to know within our organization what are the gaps, not only in terms of position, but also in terms of gender.
00:36:32
Speaker
So I think it was a great moment for all of us. And I'm proud that out of something kind of scary, the outcome was a positive one.
00:36:43
Speaker
That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that story with us. And you're so right in the sunset. It really just takes one conversation. We'll talk about this a little bit later, but it's breaking down the politeness of it all, which is just a construct that we have made up to benefit the institution. But speaking of the institution... Well, for men to benefit.
00:37:05
Speaker
because women are not taught to talk about money, and we are not supposed to talk about money. And so I just want to just kind of plug that it's meant for men to make more money than, than us and for people of color, right, of course, right, of course. Yeah, yeah. And most times when I
00:37:23
Speaker
believe an institution, which has been twice since then the pandemic. I especially make it to point to let my colleagues know, you know, how much I'm making if I know that we are making different monies so they know that they can negotiate and be paid for more. But always conversations for later. But I do want to get back to that institution that we love and don't love. So you said that there's not an institution in the United States right now.
00:37:53
Speaker
with your research that is completely salary transparent. How do you envision museums and artistic environments reach that point and how that will look like and how that will be sustained? Yes, there isn't any, to my knowledge, institution that
00:38:12
Speaker
is fully solid transparent. The way I envision a museum being transparent is hopefully that museums can look at case studies or perhaps other organizations that are already transparent and learn from the models they have adopted to case studies or to enterprises that I've looked at in my research. They're not art related, but they are transparent, fully transparent.
00:38:42
Speaker
and can offer, I think, lessons for museums to adopt or I guess perhaps create a model that works for them. One of them is Buffer, which is a software platform that allows you to schedule social media posts.
00:38:59
Speaker
And they are fully salary transparent. The way that they adopted their model was to match their transparent model to their mission and their values. They started off with a formula, which I think museums should look into. And I talk about this in my research and I use the idea of like, what would it be like for someone like me living in Chicago, having these many years of experience with this much of a cost of living.
00:39:26
Speaker
and how it changes every year as a percentage and that creates a base salary with a percentage of living expenses plus maybe loyalty or years of experience as another factor to look at a formula that can give you a certain number that is more equitable than a depressed wage that stays the same.
00:39:47
Speaker
And that is one way that Buffer has looked at their model, which I think it's really clever. They're also fully salary transparent, which means that anybody can go into the website and download a, I believe it's like an Excel spreadsheet where you can see how much money they're making and how they have modified their formula throughout the years. The first formula they adopted was in 2013.
00:40:11
Speaker
The other enterprise that I've looked at is Molly Moon's in Seattle, one of my favorite ice cream shops. Women owned, they became seller transparent in 2019, April 2019. And they're not fully seller transparent in the sense that you can go online and find exactly how much each scooper makes, but they have an internal model that is transparent where everybody can, every employee can know how much, you know, maybe another
00:40:40
Speaker
staff member working in a different ice cream shop in Seattle is making. And one of the things that they discovered as they were preparing to become transparent was that they spent a year making audits, talking to each staff member. Molly Neitzel, who is the CEO, talked to every person on staff and that, you know, that took a long time and described why they were making this transition, exactly how much
00:41:08
Speaker
they were going to be making and why, what factors were involved, and that took a whole year. And that time invested into that process was critical because as part of that, they had audits that let them know that certain shops were bringing in more money than others. As a result, some people who were working in these ice cream shops were making more money than others. Perhaps because of the location, they were more heavily trafficked.
00:41:35
Speaker
And they decided as a result of that to ban tips, raise the price of the ice cream, and raise the wages. So it became like a more equitable model for all. And I really like that. And I know that perhaps it doesn't translate immediately into a museum.
00:41:55
Speaker
position, but I think that looking at what things can be switched and modified within museums to look at the budget and to make the budget more flexible instead of rigid to account for things like emergencies, like pandemics, like
00:42:11
Speaker
major things that could impact salaries for staff, I think it's important. And so those two are two case studies that I encourage leadership in museums and also staff within museums to look at and realize if there are any, the many ways that maybe could be, those models could be used as inspiration.
00:42:32
Speaker
I know that the National Public Housing Museum in Chicago is looking at a formula. I know that the organizations that I'm involved in are, you know, we're having these conversations and as a result of what happened in the chat box comment, we're looking at hiring a committee that can help us look at, okay, what are some things that could be more equitable as we move forward with a more transparent model? And so I'm glad that these things are happening. And that is what I envision. I envision hopefully museums
00:43:02
Speaker
actually being proud and being embracing these ideas because they're urgent and they're so necessary and really it's more of a collaboration. It really takes both sides of the table to make sustainable and durable and I guess like more permanent change. It's very interesting to me.
00:43:25
Speaker
to like hear some of those concepts and like some of those other case studies. Because when I think of something like big business or I talked with my partner Thieben about this all the time, he works in corporate America and he has access to not names, but positions and companies and what those peoples with those titles make. And he has access to that information and it's pretty public. So it's really funny to me, hysterical when museums
00:43:52
Speaker
artists feel and are put in the separate category from like big business and corporate America which is really not the case and yet there's this transparency happening or at least this tangible kind of archive of salary happening and other places that we also think are completely screwed up.
00:44:09
Speaker
And yet we still have the stigma of museums being so democratic. It's the same stigma when we get artists being separated from entrepreneurs, when we get museums, institutions separated from other kind of corporate life settings. So it's hysterical. Yeah. And I find it really fascinating that the people in museums who are taking care of, caring for, and protecting
00:44:37
Speaker
the artwork on the walls, not just our cultures, not just programming and not just community enrichment and the livelihood that art provides for people, but the millions and billions of dollars that are placed on the value of things hanging in the wall. Yet
00:44:59
Speaker
And we talk about that all the time, like it's normal. Like we talk like the Salvador Mundi piece, like that was international news, the value of an artwork. And yet we cannot publicly talk about the value of the people who protect those artworks. And we make them sign NDAs. Yeah, exactly. We lay them off. Connected with that too is like, I want to also think about what would it be like to have
00:45:28
Speaker
instead of a fancy curatorial position named after whoever is sponsoring that job, the whatever, whatever curatorial fellow or whatever, or the whatever, whatever director. What would it be like if instead we could have somebody like that, whether it's somebody who provides funding for a position in maintenance or in housekeeping or in visitor services after such the same kind of
00:45:58
Speaker
a renowned name. Why is it that so many curatorial and director positions are named after people who provide funding for those roles and yet we don't have the same for people who work in maintenance and visitor services or people who are on the floor directly connecting with visitors, educators, who were one of the most affected roles in the pandemic. So it's another thing that we can think about as well and challenge
00:46:26
Speaker
Why is it that only certain positions get the funding and the more permanent roles that really differ when it comes to other roles that are more like security guards or often not even affiliated with museums and are contracted and not able to have full benefits? That's another thing too that just reminded me. I was reminded of when you mentioned that. Yeah, absolutely.
00:46:50
Speaker
I think this next question feeds really well into that because I love what you said about there is a very urgent need for this. It is a crisis happening in the art world and the museum world right now.
00:47:04
Speaker
interesting how much the people who work in those spaces can really feel that. And so I wanted to ask you, what do you recommend for people who are working in the arts or who want to work in the arts? We're talking about those people who have suffered through unpaid internships and are going through this grueling unpaid labor for no payout. And I think Gianna and I struggle with this too, like how can we keep rationalizing this? Like we love the field and
00:47:31
Speaker
And we really, we love the work and we're so passionate about it, but like, where do we draw the line? So can you talk about like how people can rationalize this type of career path with what we're seeing right now, wage and salary wise? And even like Gianna and I have talked about with outsourcing, like you mentioned with security people, like they're not even getting paid benefits by their museums anymore. How can we continue to support that?
00:47:56
Speaker
Yeah, I'm thinking back to the time when I was also doing a lot of unpaid internships and a lot of unpaid labor. And one of the things that I decided to do was to stop applying to unpaid internships. And I made a promise to myself that I would only take
00:48:16
Speaker
paid internships that I would only take projects that would be paid and that I would be always keeping in mind that I'm operating against myself and against we're operating against each other if we don't advocate or negotiate for pay. So for instance,
00:48:35
Speaker
I heard, there was once a comment that I heard somebody mention saying in regards to internships, unpaid internships, where if you have an unpaid internship opportunity that you really want, but it's unpaid, one thing you could think about is having a conversation with whoever will be your supervisor and have a conversation where you describe, okay, I will be able to, or I'm interested in taking this internship for X amount of time or however long this internship is, but I really wanna,
00:49:05
Speaker
have a conversation with you during this time or in one month or three months or however long and explore the possibilities of a paid opportunity further along or after the internship. And I think that even having that conversation shows that you're not afraid to ask for a paid opportunity or to challenge this idea that your labor shouldn't be paid because that's such an antiquated belief that unfortunately still so many organizations are operating with or using.
00:49:35
Speaker
to exploit people. Another thing that is also important to me is that recently there was a time when I was offered a job and the job didn't pay what it's, Cynthia Carson from Wager calls your walk away number, she mentions that a lot in her walk away number.
00:49:57
Speaker
And when you have that walk away number and you don't get that offer, you get an offer that's below your walk away number, what do you do? Because you really want this job and you love the work, you love the organization, the mission, what do you do?
00:50:16
Speaker
One of the things that has been very eye opening for me this last year is that similarly to what I felt the day that I had my raise denied, I feel like I would be doing myself, I would be hurting myself and hurting others if I took a job that didn't pay what I was worth. And so I decided to walk away. And that was really tough, but I think that in the end it was the best thing I could do because if I continue to accept
00:50:44
Speaker
a salary that is depressed or that is not meeting my needs, then I'm not helping anyone. And I decided to walk away. And that was very, again,
00:50:56
Speaker
in many ways like life changing for me. I decided not to take less than what I think I deserve and what I know I deserve. And so I would say those things, those two things are two pieces of advice that I would recommend people to consider. And I know it's really hard because there's a lot of this mentality in museums to be grateful for whatever you can get, to get your foot in the door or to feel like
00:51:20
Speaker
you're so lucky to work in a museum and that's true but also don't forget the other side where they're also lucky to have you don't go into an interview thinking oh my god like are they gonna like me like you also need to remember are you gonna like them
00:51:34
Speaker
Is this a museum or an organization where you can see yourself being supported and also whose values and mission align to your own? So that other side of the coin was never discussed in my art history classes, was never discussed in internships. It was always like going into, I remember going into my first
00:51:53
Speaker
big internship at The Met in 2016, and I was so blown away, and I was so excited, and it was great. But I remember my mentality was, I can't believe I'm here. And that was very nice, but I think that it was an incomplete mindset, I guess, in the sense that
00:52:14
Speaker
It shouldn't be like, I can't believe I'm here and maybe I'm never going to have this chance again or no. Just go for it. Be confident in your work and be confident that other opportunities will come. Maybe you'll have to wait a little bit or the process is not going to be smooth or you're going to have to apply and get rejected, apply and get rejected.
00:52:35
Speaker
that persistence, every single interview that you go, every single job that maybe you don't get or raise that you don't get will prepare you for that moment where you're fully confident that this is one that was right for you and celebrating that. And so I would also encourage everyone to
00:52:54
Speaker
to not beat themselves up too much because I know that that can be also like a big thing where you beat yourself up and you're like, oh my God. That is also another thing that I want to tell people who are listening to not feel like it's the end of the world. If you don't get the job or if you get rejected, the more that you negotiate, the more that you go into interviews, you don't get it. Look at it as a practice for your next interview where you're going to get that job.
00:53:21
Speaker
Onyx, you did touch on this earlier, but we want to dive in a little bit deeper if you can talk about just a little bit how the wage gap plays into your project as well, and how women of color in particular are more effective in these creative fields, as we just discussed.
00:53:40
Speaker
One of the things that really motivate me to keep going with this project is the pay gap, especially because one of the most recent information that we have nationwide comes from 2018 and talks about how the pay gap stands at 18% where women collectively make about 82 cents to
Statistics on Pay Gaps
00:54:01
Speaker
a man's dollar. And this varies widely between different people with different ethnicities. And so, for instance, white women,
00:54:10
Speaker
make 79 cents to a man's dollar. For Asian American women, that is 90 cents to a man's dollar. Black women make 62 cents. Native American and Pacific Islander women make 57 cents. Unfortunately, the lowest paid rate that we have is for Latina women who are making 54 cents to a man's dollar.
00:54:32
Speaker
As a Latina woman, this is very important to me to be vocal about why the pay gap is such an important thing that we need to discuss. Why this is so urgent and why if you think about someone who looks like me over the course of her career, the amount of money that I will be missing is tremendous in comparison to
00:54:56
Speaker
you know, a white person, for example, or a white man. And so to me, this is what is at the heartbeat of it all is like,
00:55:06
Speaker
We need to challenge this idea that women shouldn't ask or that these things aren't real, like the pay gap doesn't exist. When we know that there are things that we also need to challenge, for example, not just the pay gap, but what does it mean to have a pay gap that impacts not only women of color, but people with disabilities. In the US, for example, there are regulations that allow for people with disabilities to be paid less or below minimum wage.
00:55:37
Speaker
And this is something that oftentimes employers use to take advantage of that and pay people less. So what does it look like for people with disabilities who are people of color, who live in the margins of different identities? And we don't have enough research to shed light on all these different factors, but it is huge for us to have these conversations because it really lets us know in the vast disparities that we have between people of color, especially women of color.
00:56:05
Speaker
I talk about, for instance, as part of my survey, one of the questions that relates a little bit to this has to do with, you know, as somebody who works in museums, knowing that your work is often underpaid, considering things like the gender pay gap, considering things like
00:56:23
Speaker
the high cost of living or things that happened like the pandemic and all of the ramifications that come with that, have you considered leaving the museum sphere for a higher paying field? Based on the data that I got, 79.6 percent of the survey respondents said they would, and only 20 percent said they wouldn't. It's really sad for me that we have
00:56:51
Speaker
Things like the gender pay gap that we don't really talk about as much, things like depressed wages, things like people who are being underpaid and overworked. And the fact that so many people would even consider leaving because it's just too much and it's too overwhelming to keep working within a field that really doesn't value its workers the same. Michelle Miller Fisher talked about how it's important to look at
00:57:17
Speaker
institutions not just as places that protect and house objects, but it should be museums and institutions that are for people first and object second. And I really think that that is really at the heartbeat of why I think talking about the gender pay gap as a Latina woman and all the money that we've been missing out, we would be missing out over the course of our careers is huge. And so that is one thing that really, I think it's like a burning sensation that really like helps me move forward with this.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah, those are unfortunately the statistic that I have. Having conversations with people online, actually in our TikTok feed. And it's really interesting, you know, I think people.
00:57:58
Speaker
are very quick to kind of casually say like, oh, yep, like now I work in PR and I work in marketing or now I work in something else. And it feels just like this thing that just happens, like the lifespan of an art historian is that you major in art history and then eventually you can't sustain it and you move on to something else. And unfortunately I feel very much like I'm in that position right now. And I wanted to talk to you a little about like that outsider perspective as well. So I think a lot of the times there is this like,
00:58:27
Speaker
It's an art history and the people who work in that field or in museums and creative fields in general, it's a joke, right? Like it's seen as a hobby from the outside. There are several clips from television shows and movies about making fun of people who work in museums how like they make $22,000 a year and like their life is really hard. And it's the butt of the joke to everyone else who isn't involved in that, right? So I wanted to ask,
00:58:57
Speaker
if you could kind of speak to those people or the people that obviously work in the museums as well, but like, what can we all do to bring other awareness to this, but also kind of stop putting on this facade, like, oh, haha, like, yeah, my poor paycheck is funny. Like, that's great, haha. Like, how do we move on from being the butt of the joke all the time in like kind of the larger outside realm of all of the people who visit and patron the museums, right?
00:59:26
Speaker
Yeah, one thing that I also want to emphasize when it comes to that question is that most museums in the US don't get their money from the government. And so as a result of that,
00:59:38
Speaker
We're subject to market forces just as any other business. And so in order to bring in revenue and attract visitors, we have to provide these new experiences. But all of those experiences and all of those things that come into, let's bring visitors in with the next
00:59:58
Speaker
dinosaur blockbuster show or whatever. They don't take into account real life changing and impactful policies that I think we really should be talking more about. So for example, the fact that I myself now identify as a museum worker instead of a museum professional, for example, and the reason why I do that is because I want to have more of a solidarity with people who work the floor, who clean those floors, who
01:00:25
Speaker
sell those tickets or who are security guards and if I call myself a professional it just kind of feels like kind of feels like that joke that you were alluding to this idea that we are professionals yet we're professionals with paychecks that don't reflect that professionalism or we're professionals but you know we're struggling to make ends meet and working like three four jobs just to make to make it work so I think that one way to challenge that idea of like
01:00:55
Speaker
our work being perhaps undervalued is to advocate for higher pay, to also embrace the uncomfortable feelings that come with having these conversations with others, because we need to realize that once we start having these conversations, even if we get rejected, even if we get shut down, I think that it builds solidarity that if not in that organization where you were shut down or you were silenced, you will find it in another one.
01:01:26
Speaker
And there is a reward at the other side of moving through that ask for better working conditions or better pay, or also wanting to have conversations that relate to what we were talking about earlier, the gender pay gap, and why that is so prominent. And the causes for that oftentimes is we don't really stop to look at the policies that an organization might have, like maternity leave or paternity leave.
01:01:52
Speaker
Oftentimes things that perpetuate the gender pay gap have to do a lot with women not being able to advance at the same rate as men because oftentimes women have to bear the burden or the responsibility, I should say, carry the responsibility of family care, childcare, or caring for a parent or caring for the family at a rate that is disproportionate to men.
01:02:17
Speaker
I would encourage people to embrace the fact that our work has value, that whenever you are in an organization or thinking about applying to another job, to change your mentality from this idea of, will they like me? And instead think, will I like them also? It's not just they're lucky to have, I'm lucky to, sorry, it's not only I'll be so lucky to get this job, but instead they'll be so lucky to have me as well.
01:02:45
Speaker
I don't see my work and I don't want people to think that our work is easy or not as challenging just because it's artsy or whatever. Because there's a lot of, as you all know, creative output that we have to constantly be thinking about, connecting the dots between history and technology. You are talking about TikTok and how many museums now are using TikTok.
01:03:13
Speaker
how many museums are connecting through audiences in a virtual realm through the pandemic and have been able to access audiences that maybe they hadn't before. So the pace is really fast and I think that that fast-pacedness, people who work in museums are really well suited to really adapt to because we have in many ways been used to multitask and have to work under
01:03:39
Speaker
under conditions that, you know, where we don't have all the things that we need, and we just have to create things sometimes out of nothing. Or under very little, with very little, we can make a lot. And I think that that is something that I respect, and that is something that, you know, to me, reflects as imaginative, smart, and creative. And those things I know that they're not usually prioritizing corporate or
01:04:08
Speaker
businessy-like jobs, but I think that those are the kinds of things that have really inspired so many people to create something that is new and life-changing. And so to me that has a lot of value. And I just hope that museums really, people in museums and leadership in museums really pay attention to that. Then instead of maybe funding another wing, they use that money to instead pay their workers a fair wage.
01:04:37
Speaker
Going back to what you were talking about earlier and kind of how you addressed yourself as a museum worker versus a museum professional, I find really fascinating because this year for me has been post-graduation time to find a big girl job.
01:04:52
Speaker
you know, time to stop being so hard on myself about, you know, finding a big girl job. But how do I now define the work that I'm doing out of a traditional nine to five setting? Enter art pop talk. How do I personally not refer to the work that I'm doing outside of my nine to five or full time job?
01:05:11
Speaker
as a side hustle and personally not refer to it in destructive terms as well and degrade myself in the beginning of doing something like art pop talk or now that I have left that warm embrace of academia because it is such a bubble.
01:05:27
Speaker
How do I then go and tell my colleagues when I was working in non-traditional art settings that I have this other work and then I'm just pegged as, you know, this art girl and oh I do these fun other things on the side and they're just hobbies. So it was really fascinating how to hear you work through how you want to address yourself in your title within the museum world because that's been something I've been really personally
01:05:54
Speaker
grappling with this year. Going back to our earlier conversation, though, your posts thus far on your Instagram page have really focused on this idea of
01:06:05
Speaker
the fear of it all that we have when we share our salaries. And you ask us on Instagram, quote, What are some reasons you are or are not open to sharing your salaries with others? So this question posing fear in relation to women's work experiences is something that
01:06:24
Speaker
I've been discussing a lot this year and the knowledge that I have discovered is that the fear is rooted in the constructed politeness. It's not polite to discuss your salary. It's not cute to discuss your salary. So now, can we discuss some of the reasons or some of the responses you have gained when it comes to this idea of fear? The great majority of the responses that I got through the survey
01:06:52
Speaker
have to do with fear of retaliation. They have to do with the fear of being seen as ungrateful, being seen as somebody who is a traitor. It's sort of like, you know, biting the hand that feeds you kind of thing. So all those things I wanna emphasize only benefit one side of the coin, I guess I would say. They only benefit one kind of person or one kind of team and that is often, you know,
01:07:22
Speaker
people in leadership who don't, you know, I don't want to paint them as like vile and terrible, but they're not beneficial to us who are museum workers. And some of the responses that I can share include, I believe that none of us are paid fairly and I want those who make less than me to know where they stand and are able to use that information to negotiate for better pay for themselves.
01:07:49
Speaker
Another response says, I am embarrassed that I'm 35 and making so little money in a professional role that I fought hard to get in. Another one says, I work in two places and colleagues of mine have been paid incorrectly for months and even years at a time.
01:08:06
Speaker
having never discussed their salary with other colleagues is so infuriating. Another one says, I believe salary transparency is essential. I would talk about it, but feel embarrassed that it's so low. I feel underpaid and overworked. Another one says, there's very little room for change in the organization. And if it happens, it'll only, it'll probably take years. This has all been long periods of frustration.
01:08:33
Speaker
Low salary, no benefits, grant-funded curatorial assistant position, and I worry that I'm not doing enough. I was taught that it was rude and inappropriate to talk about pay. I don't talk about it because it would be threatening to my job and board members. Others are not as comfortable talking about pay. I do not share because of fear of judgment, feelings of guilt and shame, fear of retaliation from leadership,
01:09:00
Speaker
my salary is embarrassingly low at 14 an hour. So as you can see, there's all these different comments that reflect fear, shame, guilt. And it's in many ways sad that so many of us who, as you have mentioned,
01:09:17
Speaker
We all come into this field because we generally believe in it. We love art. We love to talk about art and connect with people because we really believe in the power of art. And when I read these kinds of comments, it really makes me, I don't want to say it brings me down, but instead it motivates me to keep talking.
Encouragement for Fair Compensation
01:09:36
Speaker
And hopefully one of those people maybe shared the way that they feel ashamed because they're making so little.
01:09:42
Speaker
can hear this or can hopefully learn to advocate for themselves and for the field as a whole. Every time that we decline a job offer that is too low or every time that we decline an unpaid internship or a gig that is unpaid, I feel like we're taking a stand. And so I'm hoping that little by little museum workers can also feel inspired to take a stand and feel inspired to be more transparent. I really also want to
01:10:08
Speaker
shout out the work of emerging museum professionals and their initiatives, the things that they have done for the field to be more transparent. For instance, the Google form that they have, when any time that someone wants to apply for a job,
01:10:23
Speaker
and they find a job posting that doesn't have the salary range or the salary info you can fill out that form and they will reach out to that museum on your behalf anonymously and ask them to provide that information and you know and that is like another way to think about what does it look like for museum and museum employees to
01:10:41
Speaker
take a stand in to demand that information which only benefits everyone and avoids this time wasted of applying for a job you don't even know you can afford. And if there are people out there who work in museums or HR to also think about the hiring process and job postings as a way to make it more equitable for all and post the salary information in every job posting.
01:11:07
Speaker
It saves so much time and it's something that is a very tiny step that can easily be taken. So those things, I know I can go on and on, but those things are some of the responses I've gotten and the things that I think about when I look at or think about the responses that people have. Feelings of fear, shame and guilt. This is like, I just, I feel like I want to cry. Just, it's so overwhelming, but at the same time, I feel like it brings me a lot of joy that
01:11:36
Speaker
You know, we're three women here having this conversation and I hope that it is leading to something bigger and that brings me a lot of hope, just even hearing all the people who have been so kind enough to respond to your surveys too.
01:11:51
Speaker
We like to end on a light note here at Art Pop Talk, so I know I feel like, oh, I feel tense. I feel like I got to go revolts against the museum. But if money was no object, just for fun.
01:12:07
Speaker
What is one work of art that you would pay sky high prices, market value, like buy it at Sotheby's? What is one work of art that you would pay for?
01:12:23
Speaker
I would pay for Lilith by Kiki Smith. And I think it relates to this, you know, the first time I saw Lilith was in 2016. And for anyone who hasn't seen it, I encourage you all, you know,
01:12:40
Speaker
if you feel if you're able to or at some point to visit the Met Museum, the modern contemporary wing. In Jewish mythology, Lilith was Adam's first wife. And unlike Eve, Lilith was created from the earth, the same earth as Adam was created. So Lilith always saw herself as Adam's equal and refused to be submissive or subservient to Adam and
01:13:10
Speaker
because of this, because of this defiant attitude and her wanting to be independent and be her own self, she escaped Eden over paradise. And so Lilith, the sculpture is a sculpture that's bronze is in many ways rough and you can, when you look at it, it's not really polished. It has this sort of like rough surface. The bronze is sort of like has this tactile quality and Lilith is
01:13:40
Speaker
sort of like perched on the wall as you go into the second floor of the Met Museum. And it can take you by surprise, this presence that is enigmatic and unexpected, but very powerful. And the pose of the sculpture, the body, it's sort of like about, as I said, Lillis, it's about to jump and maybe
01:14:01
Speaker
escape or in sort of like a pose that is like about to attack. And I love that artwork. It's one of my favorites. So that would be definitely the artwork that I would select because I think it reflects this idea of women oftentimes expected to be quiet, polite and not take enough room or sort of like be grateful and
01:14:22
Speaker
submissive and I really can relate to Lilith and her spirit of defiance and of wanting more and wanting to escape a limiting environment. So that's definitely the artwork that I would select.
01:14:37
Speaker
A fantastic, fantastic choice. I love Lilith. I always go back to that idea of the untamed woman, and I think we are all untamed women here today, so it definitely fits the vibe. Onyx, we are so, so, so happy and so grateful that you were able to take the time to join us for a conversation today. Before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug, and where can people find you?
01:15:06
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. I want to end also on this note that, you know, there were many times when I was working on this project that I worried about as somebody who, you know, if in the near future I'm applying for another job or I'm applying for other opportunities, if I would be seen as someone who is, you know, troublemaker or maybe someone who would be like,
01:15:31
Speaker
Too vocal about transparency pay transparency and I worried about about that and I think that comes from this idea of all the fear that we talked about earlier in that I decided to still go forward with this because I know that whoever wherever I go next
01:15:52
Speaker
I know that whatever organization I might work or collaborate with will also have the same kind of values that I have. And so there isn't a need for me to hide. There isn't a need for me to be fearful because this is not, I don't really see this as like me against museums or workers against museums. I really see this as let's all recognize that this is urgent. Let's all recognize that this is important. And let's all recognize that this can be a collaborative effort instead of a combative thing.
01:16:21
Speaker
So with that, I hope that people can follow the project at salary transparency on Instagram. I am also on Instagram, my personal Instagram at onyxmontas. And that's where I oftentimes post a lot of my research, my findings and things that are inspirational for others that relate to negotiation and transparency. So those would be the places where people can find me.
01:16:49
Speaker
You all know where to find us. Instagram, we're going to link all of Onyx's resources on our resources page through our website and through our Insta. Please like, follow, share, all that fun stuff, and we will talk to you all next Tuesday. Bye, everyone. Bye. Art Pop Talk's executive producers are me, Bianca Martucci-Vinc. And me, Gianna Martucci-Vinc. Music and sounds are by Josh Turner, and photography is by Adrienne Turner.
01:17:18
Speaker
and our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.