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An Artpop Talk with Maria Kruglyak
307 Plays2 years ago
Artpop Talk brings on its crush, culturala Art Theory Journal editor, Maria Kruglyak. @m.kruglyak is a writer, researcher, and art theorist, who runs @culturalajournal collaboratively, with a team of six and a network of different artists and writers from around the globe.
Maria has worked as an editor and writer for independent art publications and publishing houses since completing her MA in History of Art at SOAS, University of London. She’s spent the past nine months working with environmental art in a paid internship at MAAT – Museum of Art, Architecture and Technology in Lisbon. (Just a few reasons why we are obsessed).
We cannot wait for you to meet this longtime friend/community partner of the podcast and listen to our conversation on self-starting a platform, burnout, and hot takes on finding your path in the arts.
Want even more Artpop Talk? Click HERE.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, hello, and welcome to Art Pop Talk. I'm Bianca. And I'm Gianna. It feels like it's been a minute since we had a good APT sesh, but we are back and brought you a very special guest for today's episode. Joining us today is Maria Krugliak, an art researcher and editor at one of our very favorite arts journals, Cultralla.
00:00:27
Speaker
Maria talks with us all about her Arts and Theory journal in which she is one of the contributing editors called Culturala in which ArtPopTalk is actually a contributing writer. We've known Maria for quite some time and we are so happy that the ArtPopTarts are finally getting to meet her.
Casual Conversation and Updates
00:00:42
Speaker
With that being said, let's ArtPopTalk!
00:00:49
Speaker
I missed our theme music. It's been awhile since I've heard it. I know. I missed our theme music as well. I don't... You know what I mean? It starts my day, gets me... It's like my theme song. It gets the people going. It gets the people going. It's like Gianna's theme song. Ooh, yeah. Yeah. Hype music.
00:01:08
Speaker
my own music. And I have really missed chitty chatty. That is one thing that I do really miss about not having weekly episodes is that I feel like I have to wait a long time to share my random thoughts with everybody. I feel like I have not seen you in forever. I was just in Oklahoma. And that I mean, it feels like a month ago now.
00:01:30
Speaker
Yeah, that does feel like a long time ago. Yeah, Bianca came to Oklahoma for my birthday, which was super nice with also fashion expert of APT, Juliana Poro, and also friends of APT, Audrey Kaminsky. So, you know, we had a great time. I may have bought a wedding dress. So that was super exciting. I sure did. Yeah, I did. So, you know, good times in Oklahoma.
Pop Culture and Art News Discussion
00:01:59
Speaker
Good times in Oklahoma. I have my Oklahoma fairgrounds cup. We went to the fair and I am obsessed with the souvenir cup. It holds like a liter of water. So it's honestly been great because I'm just chugging water all day long now out of this state fair souvenir cup.
00:02:17
Speaker
Bianca, I just need to say it is a travesty that no one will see the video footage of the way that you just displayed this cup because it made me feel like I am like watching your YouTube channel and you're like reviewing the quality of this cup and there was something really satisfying about it. Like I really enjoyed it. It's one liter of water. It doesn't stay cold very long because it's plastic.
00:02:44
Speaker
Well, I just let like you have these like long like acrylic nails on right now. I just feel like you like like the shit out of this Oklahoma travel cup. Like it was great. Thank you. It did make an appearance on a work call the other day and my boss I told my boss about this cup and she was like, is that your fair cup? I was like, Hell yeah. This cup is fucking awesome.
00:03:06
Speaker
Well, love that. I guess with that being said, hi everyone, welcome back to our channel. It's been a hot minute and Bianca has some chitty chatty notes in our document that say, don't worry darling, question mark, blonde, question mark.
00:03:31
Speaker
I mean, what absolute shit content those were. This is actually a review of the terrible content. I feel like Jenna, there's also so much art news going on. I think in November, we haven't done art news in so long. Maybe we throw together a November art news because there's a lot of things I want
Film Critiques and Reboots Discussion
00:03:54
Speaker
to talk about. But at the same time,
00:03:56
Speaker
I also can't stop thinking about the Met Gala theme. Can we unpack that?
00:04:02
Speaker
I'm hated over here. I'm hated. I think that's a really good idea. I think perhaps when we come back in November, we've done a mega art news episode before and it might be time to bring that back again. Although I did get a request to do an episode on nuns and with the spooky season upon us.
00:04:26
Speaker
I also had a great idea for spooky season episode which we might just have to catch up on later but I was in Salem this past weekend and I was in a shop and was reading all about
00:04:39
Speaker
the tarot cards there. And it's my understanding that there's a specific set of like the original tarot cards that I believe, unless I'm interpreting the name wrong, were illustrated by a woman. And I just found that really interesting. And also, of course, like all the witchy shit and, you know, Salemwood trials were super fascinating. But I was intrigued by the idea of illustrations with tarot cards and magic.
00:05:09
Speaker
Another little like spooky season conspiracy theory that I just came across because we know I love a good particularly celebrity conspiracy theory is that Post Malone is haunted. He's like cursed or something. Oh, I know. Apparently he like
00:05:29
Speaker
went to this like extremely haunted place and then touched this like object that he wasn't supposed to touch. And now he's like cursed. And I don't know if you remember, but he was in one of his private jets crashed. And I think like everyone was fine on the plane, but it was after that. And then all these other things have happened to him. So new conspiracy theory is that Post Malone is cursed. Does he think he's cursed?
00:05:53
Speaker
I don't know, but Reddit seems to think he is. I'm like random man on the internet. I was like, who's girl? She's a witch. She's a witch. Random man on the internet, for sure. Just yelling into the void. If I learn anything from the Salem Witch Museum, it's that anyone can just throw shit at anyone and people will believe it. That is
Hocus Pocus 2 and Sequel Trends
00:06:18
Speaker
a concept that has stood the test of time.
00:06:20
Speaker
Okay, some point I am I am a writing this post Malone is cursed train all the way Just that girl Central Station like this. Oh me all the way. Um I mean, you know, we did have some kind of good content Bianca. Did you watch the hocus pocus? to Movie I did that is excellent content were spooky season. I just watched it the other day and It was delightful
00:06:50
Speaker
as was expected, but it's one of those things where you're excited for it because it's this piece of content that is related to a nostalgic pure wholesome memory.
00:07:07
Speaker
It's like that scene from Friends that I sent you where I didn't know that this thing existed about a show that I know every word to. And then all of a sudden we have this new piece of content, but did I enjoy it the same amount that I enjoy the original piece of content? No. But I was happy to have it. I think I'll just forget that it exists, I guess. Like I just, I don't want it necessarily as part of my
00:07:34
Speaker
a connection to hocus pocus. Does that make sense? Yes, I agree. I it's clear like what audience this movie was made for and I have a little bit of thoughts about like woke humor. Yeah, 100%. Honestly, I felt like kind of ruined it for me. Yeah, I mean,
00:07:56
Speaker
Yeah, I did watch an interview with our three leading ladies of that movie and they were talking about potential Hocus Pocus, you know, three movies and I was not surprised at all the way in which they talked about a third movie being produced and maybe how they see that going is that they described it as an animation and I was not surprised at all because don't we like
00:08:26
Speaker
just see that trajectory so much like we take something that we love and then like we get a second reboot and it's okay and then it turns into like some tv spin-off animated thing but that's interesting in that it's kind of the opposite effect of what disney is doing in general with the live act animated to live action i don't know how i feel about that i guess i guess i feel negatively about that but i want to feel positively about that it's just nothing can be the original i think at the end of the day
00:08:55
Speaker
I'm just exhausted by reboots in general. And even though even though this technically is a sequel, it's a reboot. And I just I want there to be more original content. And honestly, Jenna, watching the movie, I don't want this to be a spoiler for anyone who hasn't watched Hocus Pocus 2 yet. But the way that
00:09:25
Speaker
I'm assuming it was the CBS interview in which you're referencing, Gianna. Yeah. Because I also watched the same one. Why am I not surprised? And the way that they were talking about this kind of wholesome quality to the sequel, that's what made me like
00:09:44
Speaker
twinge a little bit, because of course the first one is wholesome, but there's this quality to the first one that's against the grain for Disney in a way. I think Hocus Pocus is darker, and the way that they were talking about the original is, you know, there are these witches that kill children, and you know, that is a by itself, that's kind of a dark concept. And the way that the actresses were talking about the sequel,
00:10:14
Speaker
I got that fear of like, this is going to be too wholesome. And I just want I am okay with new content that is dark and witchy, but humorous and funny. It doesn't have to be reboot and it doesn't have to be pristine and all prettied up for me to enjoy it, I guess. And I think that's just a general problem with every single
00:10:38
Speaker
movie it feels like I'm watching these days. It's just like everything. The reboots are just a cleaned up version of something that is from a different time. And I don't think that formula works at the end of the day. I completely agree. It's like trying
Desire for Authentic Storytelling in Films
00:10:54
Speaker
to like rewrite maybe some of the dated humor or concepts that were happening. And that's really that date. I mean, that's the thing about Hocus Pocus is it doesn't fall victim to that, I don't think.
00:11:09
Speaker
So it's interesting that you say that, Bianca, because I found an old interview from when Hocus Pocus 1 came out in 1993, or around that time, where Kathleen and Jimmy was being asked about
00:11:23
Speaker
through the grapevine, they heard that she was not wanting to originally take the role as Mary. And she talked about how she didn't want to play into this idea about how women were perceived or play into this mysticism of witches or witchcraft because historically women are just blamed for everything. And she talked about how she literally had a conversation with Gloria Steinem about her thoughts about taking this role.
00:11:51
Speaker
right? And how Gloria Steinem was talking about how, you know, really like, witches were just doctors, they were just healthcare workers, they were most likely midwives, they were most likely performing abortions, and then of course, our children, right, or of course, being vilified for their work as a healthcare provider. And so, you know, you're allowed to
00:12:18
Speaker
as a woman identifying person, take your own history and kind of do with that what you will. You know what I mean? And I think that's the thing about Hocus Pocus is that it is a cult classic in a way, but it doesn't feel
00:12:33
Speaker
dated and I loved the more of the costuming that happened in the first Hocus Pocus as well. Yeah, I mean, I just would have I would have loved it to have kept the same vibe. And I guess I'm just feeling like everything is off these days in terms of what we're seeking for.
00:12:50
Speaker
um from entertainment or what we're seeking for in terms of like horror or catch culture too because I know that nobody is happy with this stupid blonde movie but what I am finding is I don't feel like people are describing it in the terms that it is a horror movie and I feel like based on the concepts that I see at play it definitely falls in line with
00:13:16
Speaker
what we see in horror films. And there are super traumatic and also like bloody and gory moments in that film as well. And the fact that it's not being described in those terms, and maybe it doesn't do horror justice to even put that movie and that genre as well. I think that's fair. I will not be watching blonde, but
00:13:41
Speaker
I think it's fair to say that there is such an artistry to a horror film. And if you're looking for a spooky episode, one of my favorite APTs is
00:13:51
Speaker
talking about the final girl with Lynn Broyles. And I was just gotta say I've been dying to talk to Lynn about this movie in a way because I even though I hate the way that this movie obviously casts Marilyn in this artful lens to traumatize this historical figure and also create different fictitious narratives.
00:14:19
Speaker
Like, yeah, she's being haunted and then is in the film is being spoken to by her unborn child in a super cringy, disturbing way that doesn't lend itself to the kind of artfulness and horror that actually has a better purpose than what this film did.
00:14:45
Speaker
Yeah. And this is, I'm not sure how I find these two things related or if they are related at all, but there's something about that kind of additive element that I also found completely unnecessary to very different films, but with Hocus Pocus 2, I didn't need the backstory of the Sanderson sisters. Like I don't need a reason to justify
00:15:10
Speaker
the fact that they are witches or like they didn't have a choice or like the sisterly bond is what keeps them together like they're witches who eat children let them be witches who eat children it's fantastic and there's still that kitchen that humor but I don't need a reason to love them and and I don't think the
00:15:28
Speaker
movie needed to give the audience a reason that they love each other either.
Maria Krugliak on Culturala's Mission
00:15:33
Speaker
I just don't find that necessary at all. We never needed it. And with Marilyn, I don't think it's... I mean, again, I haven't seen the movie, but I don't think any of that is necessary. I don't think Don't Worry Darling was necessary. There's just... Is that making sense? Yeah.
00:15:50
Speaker
Yeah, it is. And I think there's something to be said for one of the things that everyone keeps speaking about in light of this reboot of Hocus Pocus is some of the culture that has came in speaking of fandom, speaking of drag. And we never needed this backstory on the Sanderson sisters to know why we're obsessed with them. We're obsessed with them because we love their personalities and they're fabulous. And that lends itself to a contemporary culture, a queer culture. And we don't
00:16:19
Speaker
need to humanize something that we already love. It's okay to just know that we like it, you know, because we like it. Like, I think if there was ever, for example, like a rocky horror picture two on the table, I would shut that shit down. Like, Oh, no, but I mean, they did do that stage live version with Laverne Cox, which I never watched actually. I think yeah, I didn't watch it either.
00:16:50
Speaker
I think that that element in Hocus Pocus 2 with the drag queens was honestly, it may have been one of the best parts of the movie because first of all, like cornbread. Oh my God. Hocus Pocus appearance. I think it was so pure in that that is exactly what they should have been focusing on the whole time is
00:17:19
Speaker
There was no explanation of why all those drag queens were on stage. The witches just showed up and it was an element that we as the viewer recognize because we know that
00:17:31
Speaker
the characters from hocus pocus have played a part in contemporary culture in different communities and it was so fascinating the way that they just let it be they just all of a sudden were on stage with all of these what we know as drag queens that are these people that are dressed up as them and they didn't provide they they weren't like why are you here like oh
00:17:51
Speaker
were icons, you know, why are we icons? There was this element was just it was just there because it was there. And I think that scene played out actually very well. But when you're contradictory to the rest of kind of the narrative that they created, yes, to the movie. Yeah, yes. Yeah. A stew observation, Bianca.
00:18:14
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. We have someone on today who is just full of astute observations. And as we were wrapping up our conversation with Maria, we were just fangirling over her and APT's crush is culturala and has been for a very long time. So we are very, very honored and excited for you all to hear this conversation we have today.
00:18:40
Speaker
um big mega crush over here for this platform this journal and our special guests for the day so maria is a writer researcher and spends most of her time as an editor of culturala a network-based art theory journal that she's been running with a team of six and a whole lot of different artists and writers wearing many hats she works as a writer and editor
00:19:06
Speaker
for independent art publications and publishing houses since doing her MA in the history of arts at SOAS University of London. She spent the past nine months working with environmental art in a paid internship at MAT Museum of Art, Architecture and Technology in Lisbon. All right, everyone, you know the drill. We are going to take a short break and we will be right back with Maria Krulyak.
00:20:05
Speaker
We are here with the fabulous Maria. This has been such a long time coming, a dream come true to finally have you on the podcast. So with that being said, can you please introduce yourself to the listeners and share a little bit about, you know, your relationship with art and what brings you on today?
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's really been a long time coming. I feel like we guys have been speaking for over a year now to all the fabulous art poptats. Like we've been hearing about you so much. And Maria.
00:20:44
Speaker
You, if you follow ArtPop, you probably know me as editor of Culturala because we're really lucky to be working with ArtPop talk a lot. Both of you guys are actually contributing writers. And we've been sharing a lot of things like across Instagram, a little bit like this. But otherwise, I'm an art researcher, I'm a writer, but specifically in art theory, which might sound a bit dull, but it's actually really fun.
00:21:15
Speaker
I did a Masters in History of Art and otherwise I basically work with writing essays, a lot of pieces, a lot of editorial work, both kind of directly in the art and the other stuff you need to do to actually just make some money. And also I run Culturala, which is an art theory journal that
00:21:41
Speaker
I found it together with a wonderful team of five people and I mean I first started off as an artist but kind of like way back. It was a dream when I was a little girl. I always wanted to do something with that and I started
00:21:58
Speaker
to paint, I did a couple of exhibitions, realized at some point while doing my history degree and focusing on art that I actually like to speak about other people's art much more than making my own art and kind of shifted over into art theory. And I love art, it's something that I feel like it's always been a big part of my life and almost not even so much a choice is something I kind of just, you know, fallen into.
00:22:27
Speaker
Maria, I specifically want you to tell us a little bit more about the inception of Culturala. You bring a different perspective as a writer and as an arts theorist. So please talk about Culturala and this platform, but also if you can talk about that lens a little bit more for the listeners, that would be awesome.
00:22:47
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, for me, art theory is about how you speak about art, specifically contemporary art. So I guess the difference is almost like, do we see this as something historical or?
00:23:00
Speaker
something that's being created now. Sometimes that means, you know, what does this art mean for our society, but also actually the language we use to speak about art. So something that I specialize a lot in, otherwise specifically, how do we talk about art in a way that makes sense.
00:23:20
Speaker
And the inception of Culturala comes from that as well. So it first started as an idea when I was writing and doing also some exhibitions or trying to do some exhibitions, looking for spaces, and kind of realized that there wasn't a space where I could write in a way that didn't have the jargon. I mean, there's a lot of platforms now that are doing this in different ways.
00:23:48
Speaker
but it's also hard to speak theoretically without using that jargon. You know it's easier to say postcolonial it's this feminist and this is like this without actually saying well what do you feel when you see it and what does that mean in this context? And that's kind of how culture always started so it was an idea about
00:24:10
Speaker
Let's make the art theory world a bit more accessible. Let's make the way we speak about art more accessible, but also let's start to experiment with this new language. Can we speak about art in a way that's direct and in a way that's welcoming? Or do we need to keep having these mystical, mystical exhibitions where you go in and you see things and then you wonder, what is this actually?
00:24:36
Speaker
That's so interesting how you're conceptualizing the idea of an arts journal that feels very academic in nature. I remember when I was in grad school I was doing this internship and I was supposed to give a tour on LGBTQ artists in the collection that I was working with.
00:25:01
Speaker
And as I was getting ready to present my, you know, kind of mock up tour to my supervisor at the time, she was like, this is not understandable to like your everyday audience. And I was speaking like I had been writing for the past however many months, and it's such a
00:25:20
Speaker
eye-opening experience to realize that you've been ingrained to think about art in this way so much so that you can't I couldn't even speak about it on this kind of everyday accessible level so it's I love what you guys are doing so much because you're bringing that to people in this kind of arts community who are already well established and I'm sure a lot of people
00:25:44
Speaker
who your audience reaches are in that vein or have kind of built been built up within that community of the arts.
Art Theory Accessibility and Editing Process
00:25:52
Speaker
And teaching them how to how to be accessible is a whole other part of art history and theory that's not really discussed. So on that note, I suppose, can you talk about how you actually bring that idea to fruition? What is the editing process like whenever you're trying to
00:26:12
Speaker
talk about something that's really theoretical and conceptual and actually put that into print and disperse it for everyone.
00:26:20
Speaker
Well, that's a good question because basically we're all experimenting with it. I almost want to say that in a way cultural is more, you know, it's an attempt, it's a dream. We're trying to find ways and that's why we're more network-based and everyone that we work with always brings in new ideas and new ways of doing this. For example, we have a new, one of the artists coming to an upcoming, our upcoming issue on memory.
00:26:47
Speaker
who is also a playwright, and the plays that she writes are also on memory, so the way we're going to publish her piece is going to be with part of her writing, but also try to explain that somehow. We do a lot of conversations, and this is something that comes from bell hooks, right, of the idea that you have a conversation rather than an interview,
00:27:14
Speaker
How can we speak about this? And maybe like fumble together towards something. But in terms of the editorial process. That's a big talent here on our pop talk is fumbling our way through our conversations. I mean, you're speaking our language to you here, Maria. No, yeah, I think that
00:27:37
Speaker
Everything that you always do always has to be somehow, you just need to try to find this way forward. But in terms of...
00:27:45
Speaker
the actual editorial process is very long, primarily. And we've noticed this even with essays that like with me and Sarah Wright, who's the other editor, that we actually have to edit our own work so much. Because in the end of the day, still use these complicated sentences. And we have a lot of artists coming in who are also writers who
00:28:13
Speaker
also use very long complicated sentences because it's the only way we kind of learn how to write about it and especially when people come straight from art school I'm sure that both of you feel with it that when you kind of transition into more like workplace art world that there's a way if you actually have to shift and forget all of the stuff because if you will it's like you were saying like you would speak the way that you're writing but also even if you
00:28:43
Speaker
given exhibition proposal in the way that you were writing essays, it just doesn't work. Oh my gosh, this is where all the thoughts come into play. But yeah, I mean, I feel like the way that we describe art pop talk is just a dumping ground for the free flowing thoughts that Bianca and I have. However, I feel like I come from this background or like I walk these paths right from an art maker
00:29:09
Speaker
and also as an art writer and as a content creator. And Maria, it sounds like you have kind of come from that art making background as well and have kind of shifted. So it's always hard for me to identify as one or the other, but I haven't been trained to write from this art historical view. I didn't write a full art historical thesis. Therefore, I always have felt like I've been behind, right? I don't have the
00:29:37
Speaker
a written jargon of an art historian, but what is so comforting about the platform like Culturala is that it really lends itself to a person like me that comes from this different background, not a formal background, but I feel like I can have these free flowing thoughts. And the other aspect is, is that
00:29:56
Speaker
We never also feel like from this trained background that we can write creatively when we are talking about history. But I feel like you so can. And that's what I really like about the journal is that creative writing aspect. Thank you so much. I'm so glad you do.
00:30:16
Speaker
It's so interesting because the way that you guys, I mean, you speak about art pop talk as a dumping ground, but what I was, what I'm always thinking about when I'm listening to you guys is how well you shift between the different topics.
00:30:31
Speaker
You know, like things that are light and things that are actually quite heavy and complicated and that they can all work together and you never actually fall back into using some kind of cliches or slogans or jargon or whichever kind of way you're trying to put it. What you're telling us is that you listen to the podcast. So that just like, that's all we hear.
00:30:56
Speaker
I think too we're kind of following up on Bianca's initial question. Part of our kind of pre-interview conversation is you had shared with us some of the kind of navigations of also not only the editorial process, but just putting on this whole production that you guys are creating. I mean, it is a production to create these digital journals and also these physical journals as well. So I know that you guys have been working towards
00:31:22
Speaker
how to navigate that with your other professional careers and this more kind of flexible approach. I know that you also have some questions for Bianca and I about how we kind of navigate that on the podcast, but there's differences in our production. So I guess we are so curious about the ways in which you're producing your content and if you kind of want to share the highs and the lows of that with the listeners.
00:31:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, because in a way, maybe it's nice to start with kind of seeing how cultural is set up in general, because so basically, we have both printed issues and digital issues. So the printed ones and the digital ones kind of come one after the other. So far, we have two coming up one out, the printed one, the first one in terms of
00:32:16
Speaker
the production, I guess the first
00:32:20
Speaker
part of it in general, this is about finding people, speaking with people, inviting people, having open calls, and then moving that into actually an editorial process and putting things together in a way that really makes sense. That maybe is the part that takes the longest time because this is where this whole accessibility question comes in. And it's also maybe the part that is emotionally or mentally most difficult because it's
00:32:49
Speaker
Also, when you start speaking about things like accessibility or even when you invite people to do something in a place like that, people are also, because they're more welcomed, are also more likely to say, I'm really sorry, but I actually can't right now. I need a month because I've been working too much. And we've had a lot of situations with artists saying things like this. I had a really bad, maybe I'm still having,
00:33:17
Speaker
mental health situation because of overwork and because of actually trying to you know have a full-time job, do this project, work in a team of six people, we're all in different places and kind of navigating between when different people have the mental brain capacity and possibility of doing it.
00:33:35
Speaker
And then there's also a financial aspect. So we were lucky enough to crowdfund the first issue. We had so much incredible support from so many people and that was really amazing. But it also, I guess, put some kind of pressure onto, okay, this actually needs to really work now. And then you sit down with it and you try to start figuring out ways
00:33:59
Speaker
And you realize that or we realize that some things actually need to change. So the way we're thinking that we can just, you know, produce one issue and then in three months we can do the next one, but financially that doesn't work if you don't have like a personal buffer.
00:34:16
Speaker
And then the same when it comes to time, because, you know, someone who's designing the issue or someone who's actually doing the illustrations or, you know, everything happens to different people. And I think maybe right now we're also in this.
00:34:31
Speaker
of worldwide time of big changes and I think because things are fluctuating so much everyone's also finding things harder because we come from this I guess very non-corporate approach of we're actually here to work together and try to make this welcoming and direct and real it is also much easier almost to
00:34:54
Speaker
allow and let's allow those things to happen and to change how we're actually working based on the situations that we are facing, on the situations that our contributors are facing. The things that have been most consistent and where you guys have been contributing as well are the newsletters and that has been a really great output because we have these bi-weekly newsletters that are quite short but that always feature
00:35:23
Speaker
new artists, writers from the community and very variable. And it's something that I think that a lot of people from the network have ended up meeting each other from and actually reaching out and working together with people that they never met before. And I guess that's the point of all of it. But as you say, it's also the fact that it's when it's printed, there's such a long process of, you know, like even choosing the cover.
00:35:51
Speaker
And the printing process is so complicated that, you know, I wish I was a trained designer and actually really knew how exactly everything should be. But you work with a printing company that works in a specific way. And there's just so much to learn, I guess, with the printing and then the designing or the design and also all these other aspects and kind of making them fall into place. And then thereafter also actually distributing this because we're kind of
00:36:21
Speaker
more or less all over Europe and a few places in the States, in Mexico, in Brazil. So I think that what you're kind of pointing to in terms of the different modes that when you are recording and like in terms of writing and doing something printed or digital, I think that a lot of those things have different challenges.
00:36:43
Speaker
and perhaps it's actually the challenges are almost lying in where you're most comfortable or what have you worked with the longest because if you work with something for a long time you kind of also understand a little bit more you know how long things are actually going to take what are your possibilities and I think that's something that every one of us who's kind of in the beginning of their arts career a few years in and so on
00:37:10
Speaker
just about figuring out, but then I was working at a museum in the past nine months and I can see that there also people are super last minute, super stressed, like it's actually kind of unsustainable across the arts in how quick production is actually meant to be. But what are your feelings, approaches to all of this?
Sustainable Practices in Art and Creativity
00:37:33
Speaker
this idea that you're talking about, not only that spans art as a concept, but art as a workplace, I think
00:37:43
Speaker
what you guys have been able to do. You're not just a network of creatives like you are, but at the end of the day, you are this major production. And that fosters a certain type of work environment. And that's something that I admire you guys so much for, especially on the global scale that you're working at. You know, Gianna and I are one time zone away. And sometimes it's like,
00:38:09
Speaker
We cannot get on the same page. And it's it's incredibly hard whenever you are working a you know, quote unquote normal full time nine to five position. I mean, Gianna and I have
00:38:22
Speaker
made that decision to scale back our weekly episodes just because life changes and pushes you in different directions. It allows us to not only be sustainable in the way that we kind of function every day, but mentally sustainable so that we can keep doing our pop talk and keep having those really important conversations that we love to do.
00:38:46
Speaker
But when you're doing that every week, you're not in the same place. You're communicating with so many different people everywhere. It's really challenging and you guys have done an incredible job from our perspective at finding that balance. How did you guys come about actually deciding, you know, from doing a weekly podcast? I'm not sure how many, how long have you been doing it for? It's a few years now, no?
00:39:12
Speaker
It's going on three years, isn't it? Did I make that up? About two and a half years in. That's wild. And yeah, it was, I mean, during COVID.
00:39:25
Speaker
that I had this mentality where I was like, I want to be consistent. Consistency is so important to building up trust with your audience. And I don't want it to appear that we don't care, that we're lagging, that we're not working hard. It was all about perception for me and not really taking into account how Gianna and I, especially Gianna during the past years, were actually feeling and navigating the world.
00:39:55
Speaker
life. But I was I was so concerned with we're starting something new. This is a business like we need to be hard working business women. And Giana has been so gracious with me as I've come to figure that out and see that through her eyes. And it took me a really long time to get there because I was afraid of letting everyone down. I think at the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. But
00:40:25
Speaker
I mean, I always joke about, you know, being, you know, the world's like people pleaser and, you know, that is something I'm definitely trying to work on.
00:40:35
Speaker
But it was hard to let even a smidge of that go. I mean, it was a big decision for us to go from this very business-heavy mindset. And it's been fantastic, but a really good self-evaluation to realize we are still doing the things that we wanted to do at the very beginning of this. We just have two episodes less a month, and that saves us a lot of
00:41:05
Speaker
mental energy, it makes us more sustainable, less susceptible to burnout, but it also still provides really insightful conversations like we're having now with you and we have more time to do research and we have more time to spend with our partners. And so it's a good thing to step back and really reevaluate, but it's definitely hard. It was hard for me to come to terms with that.
00:41:31
Speaker
I definitely hear you in terms of actually kind of understanding that or accepting that, okay, maybe it's fine to, if someone will be disappointed and maybe they won't actually, because I'm not sure how you guys found what the response to switching from the weekly to the bi-weekly podcast was in terms of your audience.
00:41:55
Speaker
I literally don't think anybody gave a shit, Maria. And I think that's the funny thing is we do put this pressure on ourselves. But I think when we do really evaluate the content that we are creating and the network of listeners and participants in the podcast that we have, I also think it's fair to say that we were overproducing content too. I'm not sure that we have the
00:42:21
Speaker
the bandwidth financially and mentally and just timewise right now based off our work schedules to withstand something like that. And the fact that we were doing that for almost two full years is pretty incredible, but it's okay to
00:42:38
Speaker
say that you have other goals like I would like to spend time with my fiance, I would like to be healthier, I would like to not have to sacrifice going to the gym because I need to do this podcast because I told myself two years ago that I was going to do it and I don't want to disappoint Gianna from two years ago.
00:42:56
Speaker
But it's also like, we are feeling so much of that, but I think our audience has been along for that journey as well. I mean, I think we've become, we've learned to become a lot more open and honest about how we're feeling less guarded, maybe not so much guarded when it comes to art conversations, because we've always been, you know, a little spicy when it comes to our feelings on things, but
00:43:23
Speaker
There is something to say for the people who listen to the show and the art pop tarts giving us that grace and that
00:43:33
Speaker
space as well. And I think that's what a network does. That's what a community does. And I think when you learn from each other and you're open to hearing how others navigate through spaces, there's no reason that anyone, you know, they might be sad, they're getting less content. But I mean, I hope some people are like a little sad about it.
00:43:56
Speaker
You know, it's good for the audience in the long run because it's a more honest show, I suppose. Yeah, and I also think that there's something to say in terms of, you know, we always, when we speak about
00:44:15
Speaker
you know, the artists and the writers that we kind of love. I feel like we're always talking about with them, talking about them as, you know, spend all these five years working on this piece and that all the space, you know, like Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own. And it's been such a big part of our culture, but kind of combined with where our culture is going now, where it's really high paced. And, you know, social media, the need for like,
00:44:43
Speaker
posting things all the time, controlling everything all the time. And also these kind of business ideas that we need to be consistent and we need to be thorough and it always has to be perfect. While the people we kind of maybe admire, we think that it's great that they're not. And we speak about Frida Kahlo, we speak about how much she spoke about how she's actually feeling. But we are not ready to give that space to ourselves.
00:45:13
Speaker
And maybe that's something that comes in when you're, I don't know, I've been thinking about this question of if you're the art worker or the artist, kind of the main, main artist of whatever, you know, to what extent we see it as a job, to what extent do we see it as a pleasure and also this need to kind of, it always has to be fun and, but then for it to be fun and for like real research to happen, you need time.
00:45:42
Speaker
in a way that's kind of contradictory to how we do a lot of things in the art world. Which kind of what you're describing makes me think of this question that we wanted to talk about just in terms of slowing down because like all conversations we have on the podcast about the arts culture and working culture that
00:46:06
Speaker
also extends past that barrier into a lot of different workforces. But I think that sometimes I wonder if the art slowed down, would that kind of demystification happen in terms of the hustle, in terms of the unhealthy art worker?
00:46:24
Speaker
the unstable art worker, the not financially stable art worker. And so, you know, I think slowing down for a lot of different work cultures has kind of made different environments more transparent. And I think a lot of people are moving towards healthier work environments and that of course goes for the arts. But like you're just talking about, I mean, you were just working at a museum for nine months and it seems like, you know, planning those exhibitions are still
00:46:52
Speaker
back to back to back but it's just the what if like what if we slowed down what if we did had you know three day weekends yeah and i also think it's an extra interesting question when it comes to the arts where i feel that
00:47:07
Speaker
I guess us who work in the arts think that it is so, so important. And they are, for sure. But I also think that people who don't maybe see it as, well, your job is not as important. You know, no one will die because this exhibition opens tomorrow. This is a little bit arbitrary. And the way we react to it is always with, you know, because it's disrespectful when someone says that we get our feelings get hurt.
00:47:31
Speaker
But at the same time the question is does it to what extent doesn't matter how do we do it and if that slowing down is not giving up or you know letting someone down but more way of together finding healthier patterns so as you say you know
00:47:50
Speaker
four day work weeks have actually always been seen as in all research studies kind of come up as more productive and definitely more creative, which I mean, this is why we're in the arts in the end of the day. Maybe more to be creative than productive, but still this kind of like
00:48:09
Speaker
production or even overproduction of like cultural content too. Sometimes they just think if the general public, if we did slow down, I feel like the general public would notice that shift. And then, you know, I'm just curious about what would happen almost just from like a social studies perspective.
00:48:32
Speaker
because so much our cities, our metropolitan areas and outlying areas all rely on these like cultural hubs. And I think we take that for granted. And so, you know, what would happen if we did slow down? You know, is that like fighting fire with fire? Would we then get the respect that we deserve? I don't know.
00:48:48
Speaker
I'm curious how everyone at Culturala navigates that I mean, because I mean, I would absolutely consider you a place of work. It is a type of production for professionals. So how do you go about those conversations whenever you're thinking about, I mean, whenever you're producing a journal, there are certain deadlines to that, you know, that at the end of the day, kind of have to be met. So how do you
00:49:17
Speaker
function as a workplace whenever you're also being respectful of that mentality. I think that one of the both a challenge, but more than anything else, something I'm very grateful for is that all of the people who are working together, we're all friends. Not all of them actually know each other from before, but I've been a close friend to most of them.
00:49:42
Speaker
or to all of them, actually. We have Fiona, who is new, who we're really happy to have on board, who is now a close friend. And I think that when it comes from a place of friendship, I'm sure you guys also feel it from being sisters, that there is an honesty that means that, okay, well, if you can't get this done, you can say it, and then someone else will pick that up, and we can move that forward together. Because there are, as you say,
00:50:11
Speaker
deadlines that actually have to be met, there's still things that really have to be done. And while we've been really clear about like, you know, our issues might get delayed because we're independent self-publishing, but other things like newsletters maybe can't
Challenges in Art Exhibitions and Public Expectations
00:50:29
Speaker
because this is a thing that we've decided we're going to be consistent about. But also, as we say, decided somehow.
00:50:37
Speaker
When it comes from that perspective, it's like, okay, so if you do a little bit of forward planning and speak really openly, and I think that in workplaces, this is what's always difficult. I have like an anecdote from, I used to work as a chef a while ago when I was in college, when I was in uni.
00:50:59
Speaker
And my head chef was always telling me, well, in the end of the day, it's just dinner. So if they're going to be upset about it, they'll be upset about it, but it's just dinner.
00:51:11
Speaker
But the dinner is important, you know? Food is the best thing ever. I love dinner, though. I love dinner. And there are things that actually like when, you know, you say like, oh, like if we just slow down, we will get the respect that we deserve. Because I don't, I think that people will be like, well, why didn't this exhibition open? You know, I've been planning to go to New York specifically to see this. You can't just not open a show.
00:51:36
Speaker
And the same with... Watch me. That's the attitude I'd like to bring to the art world. That is such an interesting point. I think every person who studies art has had that moment where they travel so far to see something and you get there and it's not on view.
00:51:59
Speaker
the world keeps turning, it sucks when you're there and you're like, I have been waiting for this moment for years. And this stupid piece of art isn't fucking here. Like it's, it's a miserable experience. But it's
00:52:17
Speaker
not one that many people understand the interworking of what went behind the scenes to get all the other surrounding pieces on view or whatever. It's collective, but then it also brings you down to the singular perspective of the kind of
00:52:37
Speaker
person centric viewing experience like these cultural destinations are for everyone and you know there are a lot of exhibitions that I've even worked on in particular where we have to have trainings about how like might everyone might not agree with this artist viewpoint and you need to be prepared for that. And so those are
00:52:56
Speaker
all things that go into the logistics of, you know, public art spaces, right? Well, I mean, and we can go back and we can think about this through the perspective of your journal, Maria. You know, there are so many things that might not have made it into the journal or maybe are pushed or postponed. Like, we don't see those operations behind the scenes. What we get is just this lovely physical book or, you know, digital copy of, you know, a perfectly published journal and
00:53:25
Speaker
all of the challenges that went behind the scenes, you know, it's just as if we were looking at a painting and, you know, we didn't know that 100 hours went into it, but we just assumed like, Oh, yeah, this took a lot of work. Cool. I'm going to spend one minute looking at it, right? Like, the average someone looks at a piece of artwork, it's just like hurts me, folks. Which is also so ironic, given the pace at which we know internal museum staffs function,
00:53:52
Speaker
when you know you're on a tour and they're like practice slow looking or I was at a museum um this past weekend and it was like teaching you about meditation and how to like practice mindfulness when there's a piece of art in front of you and I was like does the staff know that this is here like do they know how to use this like I'm concerned for the the speed at which it probably took to integrate this thing into a museum but that
00:54:22
Speaker
ironically is probably not being practiced behind the scenes.
00:54:27
Speaker
Yeah I think with all things you know with all things entertainment I feel because we still see art to a large extent as entertainment kind of as a public. That there is so much pressure of things being exactly right but lately I've also been seeing how many times it just goes wrong. It's like at almost every festival there is a headliner that either gets cancelled or cancels. So many shows are just like
00:54:55
Speaker
they just actually didn't open or you know actually this big artist that we're sending were problematic so all of these things are just not happening and I'm not trying to say that the problematic artist should still be there I'm just saying that actually these things shift so much and you know you're talking about this deadline Ray and Bianca and I can really feel that as well but then I kind of when I took a step back and started to ask myself where well
00:55:25
Speaker
all of these deadlines are just not being met by anyone.
Global Art Community and Conversational Writing
00:55:29
Speaker
And while the museum staff is stressing themselves out about it, the museum to the public just hangs a note saying, currently unavailable. And that's the end of it. Yeah, I think that's actually really funny. I was downtown the other day here in Tulsa, and I went into the Woody Guthrie Museum here in Tulsa, which is an American singer.
00:55:55
Speaker
And I had never been in and it's like, oh, this is kind of like an important thing. And I thought it was really interesting. The museum docent was telling me, oh, I'm sorry, one of our traveling exhibition spaces, you know, it's just in transition right now. So we're setting up the new space. So you'll just have access to the permanent collection.
00:56:11
Speaker
Great, you know, I think as you also go to museums to you become a little bit used to that. But I think what you're talking about Maria too is kind of interesting in terms of other forms of entertainment. Because there's a lot of kind of critique happening right now or Bianca and I have talked about this over production.
00:56:29
Speaker
that I feel like at least I experience with something like Marvel Cinematic Universe and we keep getting these really shoddy TV productions released on Disney Plus and I feel like the visual effects are terrible and I feel like I also have no right to
00:56:44
Speaker
critique that as someone who doesn't know how CGI or visual effects work, but based on the entertainment that I consume, it's just not up to par. And yet we're just producing this content just to produce it. And so in terms of kind of how we bridge the gap here, our pub talk between, you know, what's happening with other entertainment, and then also, as you said, viewing artists at entertainment, too, these are all kind of spaces or entry points that at least
00:57:10
Speaker
some of the listeners are experiencing, but they might be on, you know, different levels or different entry points. So also speaking of deadlines, Maria, I definitely owe you an article by the end of this month. So Art Pop Talk, like you said, is a contributing writer of the journal and I had the pleasure of interviewing or meeting one of the featured artists that will be
00:57:38
Speaker
from not this issue, but the next one, which will be a physical journal, on the theme of memory. And their name is Harriet Gillett. And Harriet's a really interesting artist that, again, explores this idea of memory from kind of this, like, mish-maxup of kind of post-impressionism-like surrealist contemporary art. She's got a lot going on.
00:58:02
Speaker
um but maria i just like to talk about the kind of a writing process that you set up for your network of artists or professionals and your writers because as you spoke about earlier coming from that bell hooks perspective you really like to think of
00:58:19
Speaker
these writings more as a conversation and not just an interview something that's really digestible and from my experience in just trying to write this article for this upcoming issue I think you really lay that foundation and you really try to have the writer and the artist or the you know to use terms interviewer and interviewee you like to set them up on the same playing field and make those introductions which
00:58:43
Speaker
I have to say something that I have not experienced before in writing for other art zines or other arts journal.
00:58:51
Speaker
It's I have written articles, you know, about artists and I've never met them. And I don't know if they've read what I've written. So this has just been a very unique experience. And I mean, I just feel like coming as a contributing writer, it's such a privilege that you also are creating these connections. So anyways, I'm a fan, but I want to hear you kind of speak to that a little bit more.
00:59:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think that what you're saying is true that it's quite rare. I see it more and more coming up that there's the conversations rather than interviews. But I think that also quite often those things are quite set up. And it's difficult to, I mean, I'm so glad that you found that so nice. And
00:59:36
Speaker
that you actually were able to connect and like really meet and really speak but I think that it's also something we've really been playing around with a lot of how do you introduce to people and we have a lot of people come with questions in terms of you know what's your style guide how exactly do you want me to write this and people actually want to fall back onto the interview process because it's a little bit simpler perhaps
01:00:03
Speaker
Which isn't a bad thing in and of itself. I mean, I'm all for reading interviews in general, but I think that it's so hard to kind of, even when you're doing an introduction over email, how do you create that space? It's a little bit different. One of the things we've kind of been doing is to move people over onto WhatsApp because you have a WhatsApp group chat and suddenly, you know, people sending emojis.
01:00:30
Speaker
like a little video of, I mean, we're part of doing this conversation now between two artists, Dandara Ham and Daniel Hengst were most involved. And Dandara has just had a baby, so time, and they have like a massive time difference at the same time. So Daniel is in Germany, Dandara is in Brazil, and kind of trying to navigate actually finding a time to meet turned out to be too difficult. So he said, let's do voice notes.
01:00:59
Speaker
and because they're both so lovely they end up sending you know photos of where they are that day and like a little voice note and it becomes super nice. Let's see how we managed to like actually put this whole thing into writing but I'm super excited for that because I think we kind of need to break down this really formal barrier and in the end of the day for us at Culturala I get more out, we all get more out of
01:01:28
Speaker
Yujana knowing Harriet personally, and then that connection can actually take both of you somewhere else. That is almost more important than the article itself. No, I'm gonna cry I need to like I need to like DM Harriet like, where are your voice notes? Where are my voice notes? I need to express my gratitude gratitude towards this woman right now.
Conclusion and Upcoming Projects
01:01:52
Speaker
But gosh, I just like, how lovely is that? It's just so, I can't. And it also, I mean, as you're speaking to, obviously, Harry and I are in extremely different time zones. And kind of like we are today, Maria, it's 6.40 our time. What is who, what are they? We're keeping you up late, sister. Yeah, so it is difficult.
01:02:16
Speaker
you know, meeting people halfway across the world. But it's so awesome to know that, you know, if I ever visited the UK, if I ever went here, if I ever went here, even just meeting people in a different street, building this network of artists. And we have these little art pen pals all around the world. And I mean, what a lovely sentiment and, you know, way to connect people.
01:02:36
Speaker
Well, as you just said, we are keeping you up very late and all of us are very appreciative of this interview conversation. So with that, before we let you go, Maria, is there anything that you would like to plug? What's coming next for you? You mentioned a little bit about what's coming up for the journal, but give us the whole spiel where everyone can find you. We'll link everything, of course, but let us hear it.
01:03:05
Speaker
So you can find me mainly on Instagram, either through Culturale Journal or m.crugliac. You can find a bunch of my articles coming up on Mad Extended, the online platform from the Museum of Art, Architecture and Technology here in Lisbon. You'll also find me doing quite a few events, both in relation to the next issue on digitalization,
01:03:35
Speaker
But we're also experimenting a little bit here with a few friends and artists of how can we actually create a community here in Lisbon. And one of the other exciting things, which is the Steamship project space, which is a project space collective basically in London.
01:03:54
Speaker
And it's a house and where artists both live and work. We used to put up festivals there and all these fun things. And now it's been five years that it's been around. So in the end of November, there'll be a five year show. So if any one of your listeners is in London, they should definitely come down.
01:04:14
Speaker
And otherwise for me next, I'm basically going back to working freelance and I'm really happy. So you'll find me writing articles. Hit me up if you want writing or editorial work, because I'm available. Oh, MG, so many fun things to celebrate. That's awesome. Maria, congratulations. We love that journey for you.
01:04:37
Speaker
Uh, fantastic. Um, it has been long overdue. We've needed to have you on the podcast for a while. So we're so grateful that you were here and that the art puppets finally got to meet you. As Maria said, you can hit her up. We will link all of her information for you all in the show notes of this episode. And with that, everybody, we will talk to you all into Tuesdays. Bye everyone. Bye everyone. Bye. Thank you so much.
01:05:03
Speaker
Art Pop Talk's executive producers are me, Bianca Martucci-Vinc. And me, Gianna Martucci-Vinc. Music and sounds are by Josh Turner and photography is by Adrian Turner. And our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.
01:05:34
Speaker
you