Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Nuns, huns. With Women's Art Wednesday
281 Plays1 year ago
Women’s Art Wednesday is back on APT! Co-Founders of @Womensartwednesday Jane and Paloma tell us about their favorite nuns throughout history! Intellectual baddies include: Hildegard von Bingen, Herrad of Landsberg, and Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz.
The big theme: not all nuns are the same nun.
For more Artpop Talk, click HERE.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Announcement
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, hello, and welcome to Art Pop Top. Today we have an amazing guest episode for you all with Jane and Paloma from Women's Art Wednesday. You already know them, you already love them, you've already read their book.
Discussion on Favorite Art History Nuns
00:00:18
Speaker
So today, Jane and Paloma are here talking about nuns, their favorite nuns from art history, why not all nuns are the same nun. Very important stuff here, people.
00:00:30
Speaker
And if you haven't listened to our episode with Jane and Paloma from last March, make sure you go and do so. They talk about their amazing platform, their amazing book that they wrote, and you probably also just heard Jane on the podcast with Gianna talking about brides of art history pretty recently.
Welcome Back Jane and Paloma
00:00:48
Speaker
So we have both the gals here joining us today talking all about nuns, huns. So let's get into it with Jane and Paloma.
00:01:06
Speaker
All right, welcome. Women's Art Wednesday back to the podcast. The dynamic duo is here to join us, Jane and Paloma, co-founders of Women's Art Wednesday. We just had Jane on the pod for our brides of art history episode, which in my opinion was the most iconic episode.
00:01:25
Speaker
that there ever has and ever will be with our pop topic. So fun. So oh my gosh, like second month in a row, we just can't get enough of Women's Art Wednesday. How are you both? Welcome, welcome. We're doing well.
Personal Stories and Humorous Anecdotes
00:01:40
Speaker
We're so good. We just went together on my bachelorette party. So we're only just now recovering our sleep.
00:01:49
Speaker
Do not act like we are not thirsty for that content. Give it to me. It was a lot of disco, it was a lot of ABBA. It was a disco weekend for sure.
00:02:01
Speaker
So cute. And Jane's parents joined us at the disco bar. They did. And it was epic. Yeah, my sister just had a baby. And so traveling, she was like, we decided to make it like a family thing. You know, going to have some help with the baby. My parents were like, is this weird that we're coming? And I was like, no. Like, just come. We're going to have a great time. And they obviously know Paloma and all the rest of my friends. And so we were going out one night. We were like, do you want to come? And they're like, we kind of do.
00:02:29
Speaker
They made an appearance for like 10 minutes at the club. Everyone was obsessed. We were scared at first because we were in line to go into the disco and they took them out of line and I'm like, oh my gosh, did they just kick your parents out? But turns out it was just for their IDs and they didn't need to check their ID. They were like, yeah, they were like in line. We were like, oh man, they're getting barred at the door. And the bouncer was like, you're VIP, like you're coming with me. And they just disappeared like into the clubs when we finally got in there.
00:02:57
Speaker
My parents are on the dance floor with gin and tonics in hand, living it up. It was a good time. Literally iconic. I am here for it. Phoebe and I went to a wedding this weekend and the parents of the bride did ballroom lessons to do dances together. Phoebe and I are taking ballroom dance lessons and we were terrible at it. We were thirsty for their dance moves. We were talking to these parents the most over the wedding because
00:03:26
Speaker
They were like, Oh, have you learned how to like, two step and like, they're like, so ahead of us. And we're like, Oh my God, I am in the box. I'm staying in the box. Like, teach me your ways. They were killing it. So the whole time, Steven and I were just talking and watching the parents of the bride, just admiring the fact that they were living their best lives. So I feel like parents out here are just killing it. It's killing. It's the parents moment, honestly. I'm just a bystander.
00:03:52
Speaker
You have a bystander at your own wedding. Oh my gosh. Absolutely not. Jane is iconic. I do love the weddings of the two houses, like Art Pop Talk, Women's Art Wednesday. We're like Game of Thrones over here.
Excitement for Nun Discussion
00:04:09
Speaker
I am very much here for it, but it was a great episode and we are very excited for today's episode. We have
00:04:18
Speaker
been loving Women's Art Wednesday, take the wheel in terms of our episode content. We've really been loving it so much. So today you all are in for a little bit of a treat. So we've got nuns on the agenda for today.
00:04:37
Speaker
nuns hun. I need everyone to know that the request for today's episode was that it was specifically called nuns hun. So that is in the contract is how we got them on today. So Bianca and I just need you guys to give us a little preview of what's to come for today and please tell us what is the fascination with nuns. I kind of love it that we're bringing a little bit of maybe like a spooky spice episode since
00:05:04
Speaker
you know we won't have our Pop Talk Octobers anymore. It won't be as spooky as you think it will. There's like one, I don't know it's more like it's funny when you look at nuns because some of them are like kind of trippy like
00:05:20
Speaker
kind of, I don't know, spooky. Yeah, sometimes. I just know if I lived in the Renaissance, I would be a nun.
Personal Connections and Art History
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah. So I know it was my calling. I've always loved nuns, just the idea of them. My mom, actually, she really wanted to become a nun when she was young. And my grandma didn't let her because my uncle was already trying to become a priest and she couldn't have that many people in the family. It's like one is enough.
00:05:47
Speaker
So ever since then I always wondered why my mom liked it and learning about nuns throughout history has been super fascinating especially through art and in Women's Art Wednesday we've definitely highlighted some of some nuns that we really like and we're going to talk a little bit about them and maybe add a little bit of history here and there of some of our favorite nuns.
00:06:08
Speaker
Yeah and I think too like one of the things that's interesting about it for us as Women's Art Wednesday is that we kind of like stumbled upon like wow there's so many nuns in art history and like it wasn't necessarily like we went out looking for it but it you know just kind of popped up where we're like we featured like six nuns this year like what's up with that?
00:06:30
Speaker
And, um, I think that that's been really, this is a really cool opportunity for us. It's been fun to prepare for this episode because we write in this short form way of doing women's art Wednesday posts, you know, like digestible small and all of that. And we really liked that, but like, we're actually like nerdy academics at heart.
00:06:46
Speaker
And it's fun to find the through line of, OK, we noticed that there are so many of these people popping up that have this kind of similarity, although nuns is also a very broad term. But it's just cool to be like, OK, we have a chance to explore the historical context of why this might be, that you see so many women in art history who are nuns throughout time.
00:07:07
Speaker
I also realize that not a lot of people talk about nuns. As my colleague in from the University of New Mexico, Ellie Kane, she's actually writing her dissertation about nuns and I'm constantly getting this feedback from her and new adventures and new books that she's reading and I'm really excited to read once she has it written. So once she has that published, I will send it out your way.
00:07:35
Speaker
Yeah.
Nuns' Contributions to Art and Culture
00:07:36
Speaker
Ellie Kane is like the women's art Wednesday extended universe. Like more, more historians. Yeah. Yeah. We have like a little team.
00:07:46
Speaker
It's super interesting like this kind of thread that you guys have discovered about nuns because I had this art history professor who also wasn't until I was like in grad school where she was talking about this research she was doing on nuns and it's like why don't we talk about nuns that much like I feel like there's so much to do like in Western traditional art history like we see a lot of popes and imagery of the Catholic Church and we always see these you know idealized
00:08:14
Speaker
women, these allegorical female figures, but we never really talk about the women who are involved in the church. And it's so focused on either fake made up women, women in stories, or the Pope, or, you know, a patron who did something for the church to get here. And then in grad school, also one of the only other kind of women artists, like a woman artist behind the scenes involved in the church, I feel like is Hildegard. And I don't know if you guys are going to talk about that, but like,
00:08:43
Speaker
It's like one person that I discovered in a gender and visual culture class. And it's so interesting you guys are bringing this up because it's just not something that you think about. It's not present in your textbook. And why is that?
00:08:58
Speaker
Bianca, I knew exactly what professor you were talking about. And when I scrolled through their notes, I was like, Bianca is going to be so excited about this. But I think when I bring up something like, oh, are we going to get a taste of like spooky spice? I feel like it's because like a lens that we've also taken on the Art Pop Talk podcast is
00:09:17
Speaker
kind of playing into those perceptions of like allegorical like female characters. We've talked a lot about witches. And like when we bring when we've brought on limb royals on the podcast, we've talked about those like personas that these like women characters have kind of exemplified throughout pop culture throughout art history, like through our kind
Nuns in Pop Culture
00:09:36
Speaker
of own creation. So it'll be interesting to kind of get into more of the art history of it today through your all's lens.
00:09:42
Speaker
I'm also a scaredy cat and I can't get myself to watch The Nun. So I can be much context on that one, but I can give you a lot of context on historical nuns. Have you watched The Flying Nun? Like are you like a flying nun, girly? I'm not, but I've watched the one with Whoopi Goldberg.
00:10:02
Speaker
Sister Act. Yeah, Sister Act. Iconic nuns. I love great nuns in that movie. This is what I'm saying. I was like looking through and then I mean really like are we gonna talk about nuns in art history and not talk about Sister Wendy Beckett? I was gonna bring it up first because you know. Cold for Koda, I see you. She's gonna be like so upset that she's like not
00:10:28
Speaker
with us right now. I'm so sorry Beatrice that you are not with us, but we see you. You're with us in our hearts because let me tell you when I listened to that, what can really only be described as a loving diatribe about Sister Wendy? I was like, I feel seen here. Yes.
00:10:47
Speaker
uh but yeah i mean it's like there are iconic nuns in pop culture and art history for sure but i love bianca that you brought that up of like why do we not hear about them more um because if you think about it like in a lot of these kind of cloistered religious settings and also i should give the caveat that
Historical Contributions of Nuns
00:11:06
Speaker
a lot of what we're talking about right now is kind of like a western canon although these types of roles exist all over the world throughout all of history um but a lot of it is like
00:11:15
Speaker
if you think about it a setting in which like writing and recording documents is very prominent there's like a lot of information held and distributed and then even with the you know kind of like beginnings of printing materials in europe being like a religiously based thing you would think that there would be like better record and better visibility of these women who contributed because they were in these settings where they were able to
00:11:42
Speaker
intellectual pursuits in a lot of instances over a more domestic kind of expectation. And I think it's really interesting that even with that, the documents actually exist. We know about these people. The fact that we know about Hildegard is insane because that was so long ago.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, it predates so many things. Like, you know, if you think about like the Renaissance occurred and a lot of people have, you know, a base level knowledge of Renaissance art and art history, but like Hildegard is existing, you know, 600 years before that is just wild. And so, you know, we have the information and it's just kind of yet another example, I think, of how there's not that visibility within academia and museums and stuff like that, quite to the extent that there probably should be.
00:12:29
Speaker
And there's different types of nuns too. And I think that's what really excites me is that no one nun is the same nun. Please give me merch with all nuns. I was watching a documentary on Canopy. It was through the Canopy streaming device and it was about nuns who grow cannabis and sell cannabis.
00:12:59
Speaker
You know, there's different areas. You're not just the bride of Christ. Gianna, what was that? Okay, I feel like, hold on, my brain is conflating to none images. And one is that movie with like Aubrey Plaza with the none, but the other is like the imagery looks the same as this
00:13:26
Speaker
news story that they did on some nuns where they're like making like cheese like in this like their
00:13:35
Speaker
And they were trying to sell it, but the equivalent of a European FDA was like, you can't sell this moldy cheese you made in a barrel to the public for health reasons. And they were like, no. They had all this scientific backing. We know mold on cheese is fine. It's safe to eat. All of a sudden, they're like, no, it's fine. And it's great cheese.
00:13:57
Speaker
I'm completing this actual news story about a non-swinging cheese with the imagery of Aubrey Plaza being a nun. Do non-swinging little hobbies? I feel like I do. I just had a little bit of a crisis before jumping on this episode.
00:14:17
Speaker
and how our pop talk is coming to, you know, it's closure. We've all talked about that. And I've seen how we don't have hobbies. So now all this has just been like, do I need to become a nun? Because what an excellent talking point now that we won't have the podcast anymore. I just give you some connections, actually. Can we all be nuns and make cheese? Because I don't know why. That's really speaking to me as a candidate. I love doing that. Cheese starting like a choir sensation. Like, take your pick. It's a monastic chance, maybe.
00:14:48
Speaker
Guys, I really love this journey for us. I don't know. Oh, I know. One of the things too, Pullman and I have these conversations regularly of like, if we would have been born in the medieval era, we would for sure request that that second life happen as nuns rather than anything else you could be in the medieval era.
00:15:06
Speaker
because like reading and writing we put Hildegard in our book and like one of the things that we researched about her was that she lived a really long time she lived to be like in her 80s and people were like what is this witchcraft basically like she's so elderly for living in like
00:15:25
Speaker
1102 or you know whenever it was that she was around and it's just it's really one of those things that's like you're more isolated so you're less likely to you know contract disease and interact with people and then it's so hard to imagine in our modern lives like a life where you have no technology and no work and no like social obligations or like very different from how we you know experience those things now
00:15:52
Speaker
So sometimes I'm like, wow, if I didn't go to my job every day and didn't have a phone to scroll and movies to watch and all of that, then yeah, I probably would be like making cheese and like writing books and studying nature and like all of these cool things that nuns through history have done.
00:16:08
Speaker
I also found out that she didn't start writing until her early 40s. So it was midway through her life. It wasn't something she started very young. That's so cool. Wow. Well, I think we need to let you guys get into it because we're already wanting to get into Hell to Garden.
00:16:27
Speaker
I feel like there's so many people who are already like, wait, who? I don't know. Wait, wait, I need more context. You know what? If you want to know about Hildegard, uh, women's art, Wednesday, a woman artist for every week of the year, find it on Amazon. It's a great way to, you know.
00:16:44
Speaker
get to know her a little bit. Yeah. Well, and one thing that I just wanted to start out with too is like, we have in the doc, you know, first of all, what is a nun? And we already touched on this a little bit, but in the broadest possible sense, it's a woman who dedicates her life to religion. It's very commonly like more of a lifestyle that's accompanied by a set of vows or rules, kind of parameters that goes beyond, you know, just like a woman who considers herself religious.
00:17:09
Speaker
And obviously the definitions of what that is can be really flexible depending on like what time period in history you're talking about. And this is not necessarily to say like, oh, the institution of organized religion is like a monolith and like, you know, great for women or things like that. But really just that it's kind of interesting to see how that has been an existent factor in history and the way that women creators
00:17:38
Speaker
You know interact with that because we know that women artists have always been women have always been creating artwork and contributing to visual history and culture and society In a lot of ways. And so I think actually in particularly like Europe through a lot of history it kind of created as we've already talked about a little bit like this pocket of opportunity for women to pursue these more like intellectual
00:18:04
Speaker
um avenues of like you know writing and music and art and drawing and you know all these different things so a lot of the people that we talk about are like parts of different orders and like different branches of things so again just the caveat that like we're using none in a little bit of like a broad sense as far as like a cloistered woman individual
00:18:25
Speaker
Although we do mention those throughout. Yeah, true. True. We do mention all of the orders and things like that. But yeah, do you want to talk about Hildegard a little bit? Should we? Or should we? Yeah, let's bring it up because we keep talking about her. And I think people need to know how awesome she is. So Hildegard, I can't pronounce her last name. Von Benin. Von Benin. Von Benin. My professor said Hildegard
00:18:55
Speaker
Von Bingen.
00:18:57
Speaker
Bingen. Bingen. That's what my art history memory is recalling. Who knows if that's correct? That's just the thing about art history, too, is the pronunciation situation is all over the place. We were just actually talking about we had the same teacher in high school that got us both into art history. And he had the most flair for saying just art history terms. He'd be like, rococo. And I would be like, Tichon.
00:19:27
Speaker
Tishon. And then I got to college and they're like, it's Tishon. I'm like, it is not Tishon. We're like, this is boring. Okay. He had so much more flair for art history. So yes, I trust your judgment, honestly, on the pronunciation because I'm terrible at it. Me too. So she's from Germany. She was born in 1098.
00:19:47
Speaker
So a very long time ago. And she actually became a Benedictine Abbess. She was also a composer, a writer, a mystic, and a manuscript illustrator, which makes sense because she had a lot of time on her hands because she was not married. She did not have kids. She had a lot to do.
00:20:07
Speaker
She was known to write a lot of texts around sacred visions that she had through dreams and just throughout the day. This was before they burned you for this. So I'm glad that we still have some of her writing that kind of goes into detail about that.
00:20:26
Speaker
She also wrote about theology, nature, medicine, music. Musicians still use her music today, which I think is incredible. And she lived until she was 81 years old, which is almost unheard of during this time, because I'm pretty sure when you're in your 40s, that's already like pushing the lifespan. It's pushing your luck in the middle of the era.
00:20:49
Speaker
And, so yeah, she had a great run for her life. She also. So a lot of her creative works. She also created.
00:21:05
Speaker
apocalyptic visions essentially. They were so vivid and I think that's why a lot of people really liked her because that was a time where people really believed in the visions that other people had and they really took them seriously.
00:21:21
Speaker
And I think one thing that's interesting about Hildegard too is that if you talk about her today, a lot of different groups kind of take this ownership of her, you know, like she was a composer. And I mean, like when we released the book and she was a part of it, a lot of musicians were like,
00:21:38
Speaker
Oh, like I can't name five women artists, but I can talk about Hildegard because she had such an impact. But she also was the author of a text called Naturalis Historia, which was like one of the first instances of recording natural history. And she like wrote a lot about what kind of became the basis of like herbal medicine and stuff like that. So like she has her hands and a lot of different pieces of history, including like visual and performance art.
00:22:04
Speaker
Her manuscript illuminations were part of my gender and visual culture class because of how closely some of them represent female anatomy. And that's also a reason that she, that I would argue, I know we've talked about her, you know, last time you guys were on the podcast, but Hildegard is actually a piece in Judy Chicago's The Dinner Party.
00:22:27
Speaker
She has a place sitting there, but she's kind of one that I would say is overlooked. If you don't know Hildegard, you don't know Hildegard. But it's interesting that we do have taken from these visions that she had. There's so much that's very closely related to physical bodies, and I think that's super interesting that we saw her
00:22:52
Speaker
represented in Judy Chicago's place setting in the 70s. So yeah, that's really interesting to hear that she's... I can see, I guess, how people take ownership. I can see feminists and feminist art historians wanting to have a stake or a claim to this piece of women's history. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, we've even heard
00:23:16
Speaker
people who are kind of involved professionally in the sciences and stuff like that talk about Hildegard as like an early four person of a lot of natural sciences and things like that. So, um, I think it's interesting because I think that you hear this term Renaissance man a lot of the time of like, yes, Leonardo who Leonardo, Leonardo, Leonardo, I love you, but like,
00:23:38
Speaker
Hildegard predates you by so far where it's like you know this like I just I do everything and it's this time where there's not these silos that we have now of like I'm an art historian versus a scientist versus a composer whatever we obviously all know that about Leonardo but it's also true of Hildegard and it's something where it's like I think that the that the label of like oh she's a nun is like
00:24:02
Speaker
Kind of a profession that people bring to mind in and of itself, but it's like really this woman did it all like she did it all.
00:24:10
Speaker
And now she's a saint. Can Leonardo da Vinci say that? No. It's not saint Leonardo. Pre-Renaissance women. Okay, pre-Renaissance women. Let's go. Honestly, another great merch idea. Pre-Renaissance women on a t-shirt. God damn it. See, culture quota, just take up fucking everything we've ever said on this podcast and like, please put it on a t-shirt so I can buy it. Please, please. We have one request.
00:24:36
Speaker
Yeah, so she's incredible. I think I equate her to the artist genius that we think of Leonardo. And I really wish more people knew about her and put her in conversations when they talk about Da Vinci and all these other artist genius because she really surpasses all of them.
00:24:56
Speaker
And she was a very well-rounded person and just incredibly smart. And she just had the time of her life learning. And weird in a great way. There's this image that she made that is like, I don't even really know what's happening, but it is like a person. And then just like what appears to be like octopus tentacles coming down from the top. And it's just like, I don't know what's going on here, but I'm here for it.
00:25:25
Speaker
I don't know if she did say botany though, she might've tried it as well. When we say she was living her best life, folks, we are not lying. I do think it's interesting just in talking about, oh, jokingly, if I was a nun, that would be kind of a sweet spot because we'd live a really long time, but you guys would have a lot of access to
00:25:45
Speaker
research science like education also religion and like hopefully maybe like a safe way. It's just kind of interesting because when we think of someone like Hildegard who is a woman who's wearing many hats, it kind of makes me think of just why we also kind of
00:26:02
Speaker
start to like characterize nuns differently also kind of tying in the pop culture sense when I think of them as kind of like a caretaker or like a health care provider as well. Then we start also like tying off all these little different avenues with how nuns have been like represented within like film movies all these other different things.
00:26:21
Speaker
and it's like you can't put them in a box. I think we also have Mother Teresa ingrained into our mind and she is not she was not the greatest person in reality she came off as a really good person and this very motherly and caring person and I think that's what we envision when we think of nuns. Not all nuns are the same nun. No. Once again the tagline. The tagline for this one.
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, while we're in the West Europe realm, there's another one that I want to talk about who is, I also think, great and interesting and ties back to something that I talked about in the Brides episode of Hella symbolism because she was Hella symbolism. But it's Herod of Landsberg, which again, I could
00:27:09
Speaker
very well be mispronouncing. But she was a 12th century nun and she hailed from France. But she's most well known for writing a piece called the, oh man, this is gonna be, the Hortus delicarium. Why don't you chime in on that one Plummer?
00:27:30
Speaker
Delicarium basically the Garden of Delights and this is you know where we get into Hell Assembleism but it's also a pictorial encyclopedia and it's one of the first of its kind. So she spent 30 years working on this book of like basically every bit of information and knowledge she could compile so it's like natural history it's
00:27:52
Speaker
religion, it's theology, it's philosophy, it's history, all of these things and put it all together, illustrated it. This is where we get into some spooky season content because there are like some very hellfire brimstone type images included in this book.
00:28:09
Speaker
And it was in total 648 pages with 336 hand-drawn illustrations. So that is, I mean, that's just a lot of work. Any of the artists out there listening would be like, that's just a lot of hours to put into something.
00:28:27
Speaker
But yeah, one of the first kind of like encyclopedias, which is really cool. A lot of the images are very haunting, a little bit spooky. They deal with scenes of like hell and demons and monsters. But then there's also things that like pertain to just events that went on in her region at her time. And so again, like just a really wide range of information that she was putting together.
00:28:49
Speaker
Regrettably, the original copy was destroyed in the Franco-Prussian War during a fire in the 1870s, but it was so popular and well known amongst the other women within her order, and like since then,
00:29:05
Speaker
Uh, that there was just a lot of surviving record about the fact that she made this text and what it may have looked like and some copies of some of the illustrations and, and stuff like that. But that again, to me is something that we encounter a lot with women artists. Um, another great example being Tim Aret, who's considered one of like the first ancient Greek paint women painters, um, is that like the work itself doesn't even exist anymore, but it was actually so impactful and it's time that we still know about it, even though we don't have it.
00:29:33
Speaker
That's literally so fascinating. I'm just like literally like you were killing it so much back then like you were so popular that everyone knew your shit that we could literally just like tell you what it looked like like verbatim that we would have some kind of record of it like that's the level of like celebrity that I'm trying to achieve and it's never gonna happen. You don't know. But I think that's so that that kind of reminds me of this obsession that the art history world has with
00:30:00
Speaker
like authenticity and originals and what gets to survive and what doesn't and what makes it into a museum and like this like what is art question you know and a copy is not art and therefore is that worth being put into your you know museum or into your textbook or your lessons you know like
00:30:25
Speaker
I think that there are interesting, we see that a lot with World War II paintings that were destroyed, but we have a photograph of it that shows up in every art history textbook. It's like, oh, what is it called? It's like the shoes, the guy with the shoes, and I'll find it later.
00:30:47
Speaker
Yes, yes, it's like an impression of spinning. But there's this weird sense of like, oh, this person mattered, and we have all this other stuff from him, and we have this photo, and so this photo is the thing. But why is that not the same for something like this work? I feel like there is a shift. I feel like there is a shift happening though where the art history world is starting to, and I feel like maybe that's just from
00:31:13
Speaker
maybe my education, which is somewhat of a privilege, but talking about the unseen as well. But it's interesting that the unseen is also conflated with our historical female
00:31:24
Speaker
like icons as well. And also I think we treat books differently than we do art pieces and it's much more acceptable to make these facsimiles of these pieces that they created which are artworks but I think we kind of put them in a different level.
00:31:45
Speaker
in art history. But I also learned that it's very expensive to create facsimiles and there's a lot of copyright issues that goes along with it. You have to get permission from the owner of the manuscript or the codis or whatever you are trying to create as a facsimile and they only make X amount of these copies. So it's actually a very interesting. If we don't have the original copy of this manuscript,
00:32:15
Speaker
Is there anyone that owns the rights to what we know? I guess it would just be records.
00:32:23
Speaker
like an archive has records. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's valued by the earliest reproduction of the book. Okay, interesting. And it was created in a way that it's basically the exact replica and it was in the same style that I think we value it almost to the, well, right now we value it as the most expensive thing that she's created because we don't have the original one. Right.
00:32:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's so interesting. And like that really gets into things that are so I mean, it's like, kind of makes you be like, Oh, the value of art is fake very quickly when you're like, we actually do have the ability to reproduce things. Yeah, I would think a bit more as like a print.
00:33:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And also kind of like the intellectual property of it, you know, that like a lot of these, it's interesting because especially when it's something that was made in the medieval era, like oftentimes you'll have like copies and reproductions that were done by other people, but they're still like hand done and like, you know, made by somebody and super old, like the things that we would kind of think contribute to the value of a piece like that. Um, but at the same time, there is kind of this just like draw towards an original copy of something.
00:33:34
Speaker
We love originals. Yeah, it is. It's really interesting and also I think it just blows my mind to have
00:33:41
Speaker
I mean, this is like the history nerd in me, but it blows my mind that things exist so far in our past any way that we can even interact with them, whether that's like architecture or, you know, even anthropology and archaeology and artifacts and stuff like that, or art pieces. But then like, especially when it's almost just like the notion of something that existed, that is really all we have left of it. And, you know, just that we even know about this person in 2023, and can look her up and read about her life.
00:34:10
Speaker
and the one work that she did is actually destroyed. But it still has made the ripples. Yeah. I think also in the sense to, again, kind of tying this all back to the religious institution as well, when we think of other manuscripts that are biblical, like the Bible, the Quran, we see so many
00:34:32
Speaker
beautiful, like hand done, you know, Qurans, like I was thinking about all the ones that I went to go see in Malaysia, all like the travel size ones, like the big ones, but like, what was the first Quran? It's just interesting to know, and like you're saying, Jane, to like speak to what you're saying, to go back to even, even though this thing does not exist, we have the record of, of what it was from these reproductions and being able to trace back the original, not like we can with these other manuscripts,
00:35:00
Speaker
from religious institutions. So that to me is also the interesting tie.
00:35:05
Speaker
I believe the Vatican has a lot of those and they don't want us to see them. There's a lot of archives. I wonder why. I want to see the game of telephone that happened. That is also interesting and that doesn't have anything to do with nuns.
00:35:31
Speaker
What we got today is not what was originally. Totally. Totally. And like how things are, I don't know, interpreted differently by different people. And really, I mean, like that's all of art history, right? Is like the what people interpret out of stuff that was made and like how we choose to represent that. And I think that that's actually kind of like
00:35:52
Speaker
our entire thing with Women's Art Wednesday is like, well, let's just have a voice in interpreting what history looks like through art, because there's really like kind of one narrative. And truly, you know, it's all it's maybe not even necessarily the most accurate all the time. What a good crux moment. What a good like,
00:36:12
Speaker
You know, full circle, everything I know is a lie or I'm just saying. Just your daily existential crisis courtesy of Women's Art Wednesday and Art Pop Talk. We love it. You're welcome.
00:36:26
Speaker
She knows our brand all too well. All right, moving on. Next nun, number three. Next nun. This is my favorite nun of all time. Whoa, that's a big statement. You love a lot of nuns. I love a lot of nuns, but this nun is the nun that I would be. Okay. I just know it. So we are talking about Sor Juana Inez de la Cruz.
00:36:54
Speaker
And she lived in New Spain, which is kind of Mexico now. She was born in 1651, so she was arriving to New Spain really soon after the Spanish arrived to the Americas.
00:37:13
Speaker
And so, Juanínez de la Cruz, I will say she does come from a privileged background. And she was able to start her studies very early on. She was reading as a very small child. And this is a time where they were very particular about women not reading. So she really had that privilege to learn from an early age. And when she became a nun,
00:37:39
Speaker
She was really able to dive into her creative space and write these very beautiful poetry that I think is really what is the foundation of American literature in the Americas, not to say the United States. And if you ever have the chance to read her poetry in Spanish, I really recommend it because she is great. She also knows how to be very subtle about talking shit about men.
00:38:08
Speaker
Can I put you on the spot and ask you to read this one little poem snippet that's in here? I just love it so much because the title of the poem is You Foolish Men.
00:38:19
Speaker
All right, so I'm going to read this in Spanish. All right, so you foolish men. So in translation, because I'm not going to just leave you with that, it's you foolish men who lay the guilt on by women, not seeing you are the cause of the very thing you blame. Boom. That's some nun shade right there.
00:38:48
Speaker
Well, that aged very well. It aged so well. Like you could send that to someone and just wreck them. Yeah.
00:38:56
Speaker
Ladies, copy and paste if you ever need it, you know? If you need inspiration. Sor Juanaínez de la Cruz is your lady. And there's this really good adaptation of her life in a novella and it's so dramatic because it kind of insinuates that she has this love affair with the vice royalty, the wife. I believe she was a lesbian and just based on her writings,
00:39:26
Speaker
Not because she just hated men but she had a lot of her poems dedicated to this woman, I believe her name was Maria. And so, we love, we love a queer woman. And let's see. So yeah, she is one of the greatest historical poets and philosophers, I will say.
00:39:46
Speaker
She unfortunately had to really hide her knowledge. So she was invited by the Vice Royalty to come speak at the court, which is unheard of. They usually don't like to listen to women at that time or even now.
00:40:03
Speaker
but towards the end of her life they really gave her an ultimatum and they basically told her that she had to stop writing and dedicate herself to Christ and towards the end she did finally agree to that which I am so upset about because I'm sure that that moment she would have written some very strong worded things to those men
00:40:24
Speaker
Okay, there's also reports, which is just, you know, maybe we need to fact check this. However, some historians claim that this agreement was written in her own blood. And so it was like, I believe it though, because Catholics like stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. So that like, I can say this as I grew up Catholic and I studied Catholicism in history.
00:40:49
Speaker
That's true. She has a literal master's degree in it. But like, the yeah, there are like reports that basically this agreement that she signed was written using or like signed, you know, using her own blood as ink, which is just like a pretty metal move and like, kind of giving me like Harry Potter, I must not tell lies. And I, I don't know much.
00:41:12
Speaker
So my first visual reference is Harry Potter. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild.
00:41:22
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. It's just some like interesting flavor again about like, there's a lot of nuances here when you talk about like what, you know, life was like for a nun and kind of the ability to pursue these more intellectual pathways and stuff like that. Like obviously it's different depending on the time period and where it is and you know, the circumstance and all of that stuff. So, but yeah, I just always thought that was like kind of a little bit of interesting flavor on that story. I think she actually did that. I really think that happened. Yeah.
00:41:51
Speaker
So how, how, I mean, it seems like her writings must have been pretty popular outside of like a, like the church.
00:42:01
Speaker
space because you're saying she went to court so and for them to say you have to stop doing these writings were they distributed like regularly or how did people hear about it um and then she well she she was known for her work and she was known as this very highly intellectual child so people knew of her
00:42:22
Speaker
And I mean, the vice royalty in Spain is essentially the king and queen. They follow the king and queen's order from Spain directly, so that is their leader. So her being around the vice royalty is pretty important during that time.
00:42:37
Speaker
But I think she was too smart for them. And they're like, we can't have this. So they kind of forced her to become a cloistered nun. And they really limited her intellectually, which was so sad because she created this very amazing library within her own room. And they kind of I think they had her burn it. I believe it's very sad.
00:43:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, another instance of like destroyed this time a little more forcibly, but you know, destroyed and lost collections and really just like the other kind of piece of art history and writing and stuff like that, that I think isn't always highlighted enough, but like collecting and the people who put together these bodies of knowledge, which she certainly was.
00:43:21
Speaker
But I will say Mexico does appreciate her because she is on one of the money, one of the bills, one of the pesos. So they do appreciate women in history sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Which is also interesting because that's like another, yet another thing that is kind of like,
00:43:38
Speaker
There's so many issues tied into art history, which is also why we love it. But like this kind of global perspective that can get lost of like, this is somebody who is relevant enough in Mexican history that is like honored on modern day money and had obviously this cultural impact. And most people, I would say in the US that, you know, don't have a background in that type of thing, probably haven't heard of this person. So I think that that's just kind of like,
00:44:01
Speaker
I love looking at things like this like the niches of art history because what they allow you to do is kind of like see these broader pictures and like these ideas of like how can we compare things that happen all around the world and like different cultural perspectives and you know track history and all of that stuff. It's really just that it's like a tool for being able to look at the broader kind of social historical context.
00:44:26
Speaker
This is maybe like a little bit of a tangent, but do you guys also feel from like an art historical perspective that it's really hard to also talk about these stories without this idea of just like the tragedy of it all? And is that us like inflating also like our modern perspective on it? Like obviously like these
00:44:46
Speaker
like these things are clearly like very sad like it's it's sad to like force people into certain boxes but it's it's that tragedy aspect of also looking at the artist or the the person from history that i feel like it's hard for us to always get away from and that's i feel like kind of where like the stigma of of kind of art history comes in to play too like all of this is you know ending like oh my god look at this amazing icon but then
00:45:13
Speaker
this is super sad and her life ended this way. Yeah I think we see that a lot with women in art history is we really tie them to this tragic story and it's really hard to remove the tragedy from the artist. Obviously the biggest example is Frida Kahlo and her lifelong
00:45:37
Speaker
just journey of pain that she had and we can't remove that from her paintings and with Sor Juanaínez de la Cruz and other nuns I think we really have to talk about their tragic story and these limit harsh limitations that they endured
00:45:57
Speaker
But we also have to realize that they did have this sort of privilege in the time that they were living in because they were able to read, they were able to write, they were able to learn, they weren't constrained to having a husband and taking care of the kids because if they were married, they wouldn't have any time to do this and they weren't allowed to do this. I think with some families, they let women read enough so they can teach their children how to read, but that was really the extent of it. They couldn't do anything.
00:46:24
Speaker
like reading for pleasure or writing in diaries. Yeah. I also think that's such a, it's really like a line that we try to walk all the time with writing about art history because it's so appealing to like lean into the narrative of it and you know there is always this story and I think that we consume a lot of fiction in our modern lives and so
00:46:45
Speaker
It kind of makes it makes for good fiction in a lot of ways. And I think that there's also so like Paloma and I work with a lot of classes who contribute to Women's Art Wednesday and we talk about like our ideas with them and do these workshops. And one of the things that we always really encourage students to do is to avoid that and say it like, for example, like they, you know, more contemporary artists on a Mendieta, like,
00:47:08
Speaker
clearly has a very tragic end to her life and that's something that people tend to focus on a lot just like Frida Kahlo, you know there's so many instances of it with men and women both in art history but often with women and we're always kind of like okay like try to separate from that like try to talk about these other parts of their life but at the same time they're sometimes unavoidable and like in the case of some of these nuns in history who have had
00:47:34
Speaker
you know tragic things happen to them or their work taken away from them or you know whatever else um i don't know that it's really fair to like completely remove that story either and i think the truth is is that you know as a historian you have to kind of keep in mind that lives are a lot you know there's a lot of things that go into somebody's life and career and it's not
00:47:55
Speaker
all tragedy or like maybe a tragedy doesn't mark necessarily like the entire tenor of that person's work and life. But it's certainly a part of it because all of us will experience, you know, good things and bad things and tragedy and high points. And so I think that part of it is just trying to have kind of like
00:48:12
Speaker
a balanced perspective and then also say like okay like am I fixating on this specific element or like thinking of this as a bigger tie than it is because of perceptions that I have of like a woman's like tragic backstory kind of like soap opera narrative.
00:48:27
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the classic Artemisia story is like, you know, she suffered a terrible rape. So all of her paintings are about like this terrible thing that happened in her life. And I think she's gotten big enough like in, you know, the the general conversation so that you can not talk about those things. But I think that's a such a
00:48:52
Speaker
a fascinating distinction. And it's so important. And like the work that you guys are doing to, to acknowledge those things, but also, you know, separate that they don't dictate everything about this person is just like, it's so it's so refreshing. And I just appreciate that.
00:49:08
Speaker
take and it's it's like you to your point that you can't ignore it like it's there it happened yes but that doesn't mean everything's about it and and I just I just appreciate that so much yeah people are more than one thing you know and it's like sometimes I also think that almost like we do as celebrities which I feel like is what you guys talk about a lot with pop culture of like
00:49:28
Speaker
removing them from humanity in a way of like, and we do that with historical figures of like, I forget that this person was just a person and has these like facets to their life and work and, you know, their intellect and what they create and what they do over the course of like an entire life that we're looking at.
00:49:46
Speaker
But yeah, no, it is. It's super interesting. And it's also something that like plays into when you're writing about women in history and art history a lot. And like another big example of that being with Artemisia or other artists who were like trained by their father. And we almost kind of like push back against the like, oh, you know, they say,
00:50:04
Speaker
Artemisia Gentileschi, like daughter of a painter, and identify her that way. So then people end up kind of like removing that or we say like well that you know that's maybe relevant to the biography because it shows how that was a point of privilege that she had to be able to even learn in the first place or couldn't go to these traditional academies or whatever. So nothing gives me a greater sense of like
00:50:26
Speaker
just vindication than when I'm writing about an artist like that. And I can write, she learned painting from her father, also an artist. Just unnamed, leave it short. There you go. I think that's also interesting, just thinking in terms of going back to nuns. We brought up some of these, like, nuns in today's episode. That seems like they kind of possibly came from points of privilege, but
00:50:50
Speaker
we didn't really talk about all of their entry into religious institutions or what that looked like and what that choice looked like. I feel like sometimes too, when we look at people through the lens of art history, we're not always looking at things in terms of choice. It's just that this is how it was. But if there is a way that we can pinpoint something like a historical icon who was a nun and was that their choice,
00:51:18
Speaker
to go into that institution or was it forced or was it just the easy choice? Was it the safest choice? I don't know, but I think that is just maybe like an interesting thought to just kind of leave us with or think about. I don't know. I mean, it's like no one in history
00:51:43
Speaker
unless it's written from their own word, even then who knows what happened between then and now. But it's this weird line of who has the autonomy. Is it the historian or is it the historical figure and who gets to place autonomy and what time and how it happened? And so I think that's
00:52:06
Speaker
That's a super interesting distinction that I don't know. I don't know that we think about that. We take so much for fact. And I feel like we just follow the timeline and we're like, so this happens, so this happens, so this happens, so this. But like, was there a moment where a choice where that person could have made like a distinction or?
00:52:27
Speaker
decided to go down that path like in their life. I don't know. At least our own choice on it. Like, Jane and Ploma, you're talking about like, we'd totally be nuns, but I don't know that I would be like, I don't think she chose. I don't think she chose, but that's in my modern context. I wouldn't make that choice.
00:52:44
Speaker
but you're totally great back then. That's a smart choice. Yeah, would I become one today? No, I would not. We have yet to take that look. I will say, you know, bringing back my friend Ellie, she, in her dissertation, she's actually looking at nuns as art patrons. So she's really,
00:53:09
Speaker
giving autonomy to a lot of these cloistered nuns in Mexico who, when you hear cloistered nuns, you just, I don't know, you think of this woman in her room the whole time. All day, every day. But one of the things that nuns, especially in New Spain, what they did is that they commissioned, hopefully, I believe they commissioned these paintings and Ellie will let us know in her dissipation. Ellie Wrighten, if this is false.
00:53:38
Speaker
So there's a lot of nun portraits and they're called crowned nun portraits from New Spain that are absolutely gorgeous. We have one here at the Denver Art Museum that is beautiful and it shows the nun in all of their regalia and they're wearing these very intricate floral crowns that have all of these floral elements to them and when you look at the ones from New Spain you also notice
00:54:07
Speaker
that this was chosen by the nun herself and she had help from what we think is probably most mostly indigenous women based on the type of floral arrangements that is seen on the crown and the thing about these paintings is that they were given to the family members of these nuns because they were never going to see their daughter ever again
00:54:30
Speaker
So it was a very kind of like a goodbye. Like here is our daughter. And so they would hang them up in their homes and be like, yeah, our daughter's a nun. This is what she looks like. We won't see her, which is very sad. And there's also portraits of dead nuns. And those are just hard to look at. They're mostly of nuns who have
00:54:54
Speaker
I think they're probably late in their age and higher up in the convent. But yeah, those those paintings are also very, very beautiful and hard to look at this like momento mori situation. Wow, that what you're describing, that's so like, touching, but also heart wrenching. Yes.
00:55:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a weird thing. It's like a nice offering or like almost gesture like to the family, but also kind of like how devastating of also like a sacrifice and a choice that is at that time. Like you can't have it both ways. You can't.
00:55:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's the first step of mourning essentially for your family. Yeah. So that's what Crown Nuns is what Christina Gonzalez, her work on Crown Nuns. She was on an episode with us and she talked about hauntology. So I can like see kind of like the connections of like this
00:55:53
Speaker
this memorial this person might not be lost yet they might not have passed but there is this like kind of sadness this this loss and in this visual presence that they have in this work yeah um to your point a little bit earlier too about like
00:56:08
Speaker
Where's the autonomy and what are the decisions? I think that there's also an element in history and art history of maybe women not necessarily seeking, oh, I want to go into this because of the intellectual opportunity, but also society pushing that for women that didn't fit the mold otherwise and being like, this is your option now, or go here and do this, whether it's family or whatever.
00:56:33
Speaker
that I think kind of makes that demographic really interesting and diverse and varied in a lot of ways, which is really cool.
00:56:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's really fascinating to see. I think why we're just so intrigued by this. It's interesting to hear you talk about how some of these people have spun off into novellas because it seems like such a juicy places. Those are the kind of people, if we're kind of characterizing them as outcasts or also not fitting into the norm, those are also the people that are making these good stories for us that we're so intrigued by.
00:57:08
Speaker
Yeah, and we haven't even gotten into some of the more wild nuns, which we don't have time for in this episode, but anything that comes before the Council of Trent, which is in 1545, I believe, and that's what made the Catholic Church not do shady shit.
00:57:28
Speaker
So this is why, like this is because Hopes were having children and nuns had these convents that were more like brothels. You can read about it in the Venice convents in Italy. So before that they really had this, like they were nuns, quote unquote, but they were just living this
00:57:48
Speaker
lavish lifestyle and spending this money of spending these dowries that they were given by their parents for the convent, but actually were spent in other ways. Yeah. And I mean, I think next women's art Wednesday book is going to be all about nuns, all about nuns. Yeah. And that's kind of the thing is like party nuns. Again, another great t-shirt, but like that's kind of the thing I think that
00:58:14
Speaker
um we thought going into this and like kind of going back to what I said at the beginning of like there is no monolith here like it's not all one thing not all nuns are the same nun but like I think that that's part of what makes this so interesting like it's such a broad topic really to say like nuns in art history because there are so many individuals that fit into that category that are so very different but I think that that's kind of what makes it such a interesting and like
00:58:40
Speaker
fun and entertaining like really it's just that they have great stories like it's a it's a type of demographic that you can look at that has you know often like a big body of work and things that have survived a long long time and it just becomes really fun to like dig into and read about and I guess if I had like an ending thought it would really just be that like that's why I love art history so much is that you can pick just like some weird niche and like learn a lot about the world kind of following that rabbit hole with it and
00:59:07
Speaker
You can. Well, do we have, do we have one more nun? Um, we do. So I have a, well, okay. So we already talked about sister Wendy, but I think that like she was my last nun because I was like, we got to talk about sister Wendy Beckett. She's already had a lot of airtime on APT as we know.
00:59:25
Speaker
However, I think it's just worth noting that like she is ubiquitous in 1990s, 2000s, like children's education and, you know, objectively adorable as hell. And like just, you know, all of these things that we associate with art history that, you know, I mean, like we were still watching her in like my college art history classes. Like, so there's clearly like this kind of persisting tradition of women in this role providing kind of
00:59:54
Speaker
Education and like very commonly to other women and stuff that I think is really cool and interesting that you can track that all the way back to the medieval era to like 2002 with sister Wendy like that's just kind of a fun a fun thing and then I The last kind of thing that I had about nuns was just a quote from a biographer named Bernardo di Domonici talking about the artist Louisa Campomazzo and
01:00:20
Speaker
in kind of, you know, the proto Renaissance era saying that she sent back every advantageous marriage proposal instead, nobly enjoying herself with painting with which she was exceedingly in love and, you know, eventually kind of pursuing this lifestyle as well. And I just thought that that was kind of like a very indicative, beautiful quote. It really sums up Women's Art Wednesday.
01:00:42
Speaker
the things with which we are exceedingly in love. Oh my gosh. Well, I just need to say that Beatrice Colchicotta is probably so ecstatic because I think her life goal is to make sure that Sister Wendy Beckett gets into the canon and that she does contribute to things. But just even listening to you speak about just like giving her her place and giving her her dues is
01:01:08
Speaker
is making her, giving her a place, just like, yes, sister. And possibly just a longer history and tradition than is maybe always given credit, that there are a lot of women, nuns, and art history. And they're doing amazing things.
01:01:28
Speaker
But yeah, I think, do you have any final nuns, Polina? I have like fun fact nuns. I know that there's a nun who beat Elvis on the top charts in the early 1960s, I believe 1964, and her name was Sister Luke Gabriel. And she was a singer and she just knocked him off the charts.
01:01:53
Speaker
Wow. Good for her. I feel like that should have been part of our, uh, you know, art history or women artists, uh, trivia that we did with you guys who knocked Elvis off the charts. That would have been a good one. Love it. Was it, do you know what kind of music like was it like gospel? Cause that's also just interesting if she like, so I, it's something that I ran into when I read an article about it a few weeks ago, strangely enough, it was also rock and roll.
01:02:21
Speaker
So just kidding. I don't know that I can't verify that. I know. I don't know. I haven't listened, but I will look at it. She probably has a playlist on Spotify that we can find. I think Hildegard has a playlist on Spotify or like there's been choirs. Yeah.
01:02:36
Speaker
Yeah. And I listen, I think actually, maybe we listened to this together, but I remember at one point like encountering some of Hildegard's music and thinking of like, like you said, like a gospel, kind of like more modern concept of what like nuns create. And it was like definitely more of a chant than a song. Do you, yeah, do you have any more nun facts?
01:02:59
Speaker
I have endless nun facts, but I think that's a good amount. That's a good journey through nuns in art history, I feel like. I mean, I could keep talking to you two, as we know, forever. We don't want to say goodbye. I don't know. I know. Also, I feel like it's kind of the end of an era of women's art Wednesday art pop on the podcast.
01:03:26
Speaker
It's fine. I'm fine. Look, I fully support the like, you know, everything comes to an end kind of thing or like even it might not even be the end, even if it's a break or whatever. Like, I think that there's such a value in saying like, we completed a thing and like, I don't know, I really respect what you've done with art pop. And I respect also saying like, we are breaking from this and we'll see where the road takes us.
01:03:52
Speaker
Yes, 100%. Yes, I echo what you're saying, although it's like, I'm feeling it in my heart right now. Yeah, it's hard to think that it's... You guys are our last guests on APT and we've had so many incredible guests and conversations and I'm just...
01:04:15
Speaker
at the end of the day, like truly honored to have met you two through our pop talk and to have like seen what you've done.
01:04:24
Speaker
And the project you created, I mean, we talked about it last time. It's just like, it truly amazes me what you have done, what all the other creators' culture quota has. We've met so many amazing people, and I'm so, so grateful for it, and so grateful for the things that you were just putting out into the universe. Oh my god, same to you guys. Yes.
01:04:47
Speaker
Also, like, every time I listen to an episode of Art Pop Talk, I'm like, my dream is that I could just, like, have dinner with all of these people. Like, everyone who's ever been on Art Pop Talk, like, get together and just... Because, yeah, seriously, every episode, every guest has always been... I feel like I take so much away from it. Yeah. My dream with Art Pop Talk and us is to be at the Met Gala together. Ooh! Just talk and snack. To be sat at a very...
01:05:15
Speaker
prestigious table. I don't know if I've mentioned this about Paloma before but she has the best like big goals about things in general but when we first started Women's Art Wednesday I was like I feel like we should do this page and it'd be really cool and she was like yeah I love that I think that it's gonna be great and I think it'll get really popular and then we'll go on Ellen.
01:05:37
Speaker
It was like that was the jump. I are on the same wavelength that we are. We're there. Why shoot for the in-betweens, you know? I think we can get Versace to sit us at their table. Oh, Donatella, if you're listening. If we all were invited to the Met Gala and we were all seated together like
01:05:59
Speaker
whose table would we be at? Would we be at Schiaparelli? Would we be at Versace? I would be fine with either of those. I don't either. I love Versace. Donatella, again, if you're listening, I know you may be. Honestly, it's more of a question of which one of them could get us, you know? Oh, donatella.
01:06:21
Speaker
They're going to have to make some really convincing arguments. That's true. I'm convinced. You don't have to tell me twice. I'm sold. Anything you put onto the universe, I'm like, yeah. I'm already envisioning the gowns that we're going to wear. Oh my God, yeah. Oh my gosh. You might be wearing a pantsuit gown. A pantsuit gown? Oh, I like that. Can I rewear my wedding dress? Or you can rewear your wedding dress.
01:06:47
Speaker
I mean, if the theme is bridal, why not have a bridal? Has there been a bridal Met Gala? No, but Penelope Cruz was wearing a bridal dress at the Met Gala last week. We saw a lot of bridal stuff this time. Yeah, we had a lot of Chanel bridal. Okay, possibly a more attainable future goal for
01:07:08
Speaker
Women's Art Wednesday and our pop talk is hosting the art historian Met Gala, where we all just get together all of these minds that have been on APT to host our own little Met Gala. We're everybody.
01:07:25
Speaker
I would love that. Please. Okay. We're just going to manifest that and say that is, that is going to be a thing. And you're like a professional event planner. Okay. I'm looking at you right now. Okay. This is what I bring to the table in this conversation with literally three art historians.
01:07:43
Speaker
like my artist event planning assets just trying to keep up with the conversation at all times. I'm like Paloma's voice is like so like calming and I'm like trying to listen to what you're saying but I'm just like mesmerized that I just am like uh-huh yeah okay like cool like I'm not the first person to mention this because when we were out at my bachelorette party one of my friends who hadn't met Paloma very much before was like I feel like I want her to like read me a book while I go to sleep
01:08:13
Speaker
You need to be on the call map, Paloma. Not in a creepy way, but listen to you. My anxiety is very impressed right now. I appreciate it. You've got all the calming, beautiful voice vibes. Oh, thank you. Thank you.
01:08:30
Speaker
It's so buttery. It's just so dreamy. I'm just in awe that you all would grace us with your presence on this podcast multiple times, truly. This is also all to say, please let us manifest this event. I will make it happen. I will draw us up a plan, but this is all to say that even though we are retiring the podcast, Bianca and I are not
01:08:53
Speaker
going anywhere. So this speaks for anyone that we've engaged with on the podcast, we will make sure that you all know where to find us and keep up with us. Because, you know, we are still working professionals and want to keep up with everyone, personally and professionally and just
01:09:09
Speaker
Don't forget about me. Um, we never will. And you have this body of amazing work that you've made that exists forever as art pop talk, which is so cool and such a big accomplishment. And also if you ever want to like write guest features on women's art Wednesday, we are, we are always down. So we're, we, you know, we are off to the next phase, but what is next for women's art Wednesday?
01:09:37
Speaker
what's next um i think we're still writing the high of our book yeah honestly we've been hell yeah yeah we've been working with some classes um and that's been fun to do kind of like more hands-on kind of outreach things um if you look at our instagram right now we just wrapped up one with a college women in art history course um where all of the students did like their own women's art wednesday post and
01:09:59
Speaker
That was really cool and we were kind of expanding that but I think I mentioned this on the bride's episode I would love to do like a women's or Wednesday children's book edition Very much I'm gonna need to hold you guys Yeah, I know I invite you to our book tour
01:10:16
Speaker
Yeah. The children manage Oprah's and your interviews. I know I was going to, I heard you're like a book manager. You guys should hire me. I'll like plan all your little like book tour events. I just want to be a part of this and like, I just want to be like the fly on the wall. I know that this is like a joke, but it's actually also my real life dream.
01:10:39
Speaker
You guys are already doing that though, you're living it. You published this amazing thing and then you're taking this thing that you worked so hard on and then bringing it out into the public and having those cool in-person conversations with people.
01:10:59
Speaker
It's been very rewarding working with undergraduate students and seeing them creative works and kind of listening to them and engaging in these discussions that Jane and I have been in for many years now and it's very uplifting and it honestly has inspired us to continue on this journey that we've been on and hopefully we can create bigger projects in the near future. Yeah, I will say we talked to one high school class and I got scared. I was like, high schoolers, right?
01:11:27
Speaker
They seemed to like us. They thought we were cool. So yeah, hey, you know, I was like, I've never, I was like, I've spoken to so many college classes at this point and I've never been more intimidated than I am right now. It was terrifying because there was, it was an art class and there were seniors. Do you know how mean seniors can be?
01:11:47
Speaker
they're so over it they like want to get out of there it was but yeah overall it went okay but i think that was the most nervous i've ever been speaking to across yeah but yes i think that poloma absolutely hit the nail on the head like we're just kind of riding the wave of this project and trying to see
01:12:03
Speaker
like what the next thing is like when it feels right and you know let it develop kind of naturally we sound like artists but yeah we're really letting our creative side take over and we're not trying to push anything that we don't feel comfortable with so but yeah i i think we'll work on this children's book i think that would be very very beautiful and i think it would come out amazing
01:12:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I know we're, we're kind of like wrapping up here and at the end of our time, but it's just something that I've been thinking about with the children's book of like, as I've gotten older, like the kind of audience that I want to approach changes. And so it was like, when I was in college, it was very much like my peers and like, you know, now still a lot or like in a way, even like, Oh, I want like,
01:12:47
Speaker
museum professionals to care about this or read this content. And then it was kind of like, okay, like I want to work with college students who are like me because I was so inspired by my professors. And now I have like nieces and nephews and like a lot of kids in my life. And I think like, I want to like write stuff for them and do things for them. So I think it's cool to just like, let it evolve as we evolve, which, you know, has been a really fun and great thing about it so far.
01:13:10
Speaker
And on a personal level, I think all of the art inspiration from my life happened at an early age. So I would really love to give that to kids. So I think with a book, it would be so beautiful to do it. Yeah. Just know that we all want this for you. We love it. And all eyes are on Women's Art Wednesday for Wisconsin. All right. That was the push we needed. Thank you. Yeah. We needed a little push. Yeah. I mean, any time, now we're just like,
01:13:40
Speaker
going to be sliding into your DM. So it's like motivational cheerleaders. Please. We actually do need that. You're now our full-time hype people. That will not be a problem. So you have a very exciting wedding happening soon. I want to congratulate you on your wedding, your beautiful day. I know that everything is going to be amazing. I can't wait to hear about it.
01:14:07
Speaker
I know I can't wait to hear about the upcoming wedding for art pop talks and like I yes, I'm very excited and honestly coming on the podcast was such a fun part of the whole process and We'll wait to like hype you up like we'll give you like a month. Okay. Yeah, and then we'll be like yeah enjoy your wedding and then
01:14:30
Speaker
I will say, I sent that episode to my future in-laws, and I was like, hey, I was on this podcast, you should listen to it. I'm like, my sister-in-law, who is the sweetest, messages me shortly after listening to it, and she was like, do you need any help? Can I help you do something?
01:14:48
Speaker
And she's like, you know, like, let me know if there's any like tasks that you need done because I talk so much. I'm like, this is so much work. I was like, I guess I was kind of like railing about how much work it is. But what do we always say, though? Our pop talk is this is a safe space. It's a dumping ground for your thoughts. So like, respectfully to your sister-in-law, like,
01:15:18
Speaker
mind your business. Jane is doing great though. Well yeah and I mean we've I literally we had so much fun on our little like bachelorette weekend and I mean it's gonna be great I'm so excited but also just to like reverse the hype
01:15:33
Speaker
I really am so honored to have been on this podcast and to be part of this project. And it's amazing to get to have met you guys through this and like, I'm so proud of you. Honestly, as weird as it sounds to be like, I'm proud of you, but like you guys have done such an amazing job with this and really like brought a lot of positive content into my life.
01:15:49
Speaker
So I hope you keep the episodes up so we can all share them and still listen to them. Yeah, they're incredible. They should be up indefinitely and we'll repeat that, you know, in our next and final episode. I didn't realize that we were the last guests on APT. I'm glad you saw that towards the end because that would have been a lot of pressure at the beginning.
01:16:12
Speaker
We better be on our game today. But this episode, Women's Art Wednesday, you can come back and listen to this as many times as you want. There's no reason that any of our content would be taken down anytime soon. So yep.
01:16:26
Speaker
plenty of time to listen to this and share it with friends. Well, thank you guys for being a part of this journey. Being a supporter, being on the podcast, we couldn't have done it without you and people like you. So we don't want to say goodbye, but this has been an incredible none episode and what a fantastic
01:16:48
Speaker
note to end on because, you know, not all nuns are the same and you can't put nuns in a box. And I feel like we're all really strongly identifying with nuns and I'm going to go like drink a glass of wine and see how I feel about that. Yeah. I'm going to eat some cheese while you're at it. And I'm going to eat some cheese. Yeah. No, I'm going to make cheese from Scotland. Yeah. Contemplate your coffee. Yes. And thank you for also
01:17:13
Speaker
preparing this episode and sharing your research. We also appreciate that time. Thanks for doing all this work. Thanks for giving us a place to just talk about some random thing that we would talk about with each other anyway. I've been waiting for this moment. I'm like, yes, someone is finally interested in talking about nuns in our industry. And I have to give credit where credit is due. The whole fascination with nuns is a Paloma thing. She's the one that was like, dude, look at all these nuns. Or when she sends me Women's Art Wednesdays, she's like, we're doing another nun today. I don't even care.
01:17:44
Speaker
I'm not even sorry. It's really the Gemini in me. I have a lot of interest. And Nones is just right up there. Nones is one. Love it. I'm here for it. Love it. Well, everybody, thank you, Women's Art Wednesday, for being here. We will talk to you all in two Tuesdays for our final episode of Art Pop Talk. Bye, everyone.
01:18:10
Speaker
Art Pop Talk's executive producers are me, Bianca Martucci-Vinc. And me, Gianna Martucci-Vinc. Music and sounds are by Josh Turner and photography is by Adrian Turner. And our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.