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Fact-checking Faith (with Derek McIntyre)
76 Plays3 hours ago
“Did Jesus really live, die, and rise from the dead? " Using ancient sources, historical records, and reasoned logic, Jesus the Evidence invites readers and listeners to explore the evidence and draw their own conclusions. Here on PEP Talk, we speak to the honest, no-nonsense Derek McIntyre about his own journey through the evidence and how he is bringing his findings to churches across the country.
Derek McIntyre comes from a science/engineering background and was a resolute agnostic until his early 40's. He came to Christianity when he discovered the wealth of compelling evidence pointing to Jesus being the Son of God. He now shares this evidence with others through the Jesus: The Evidence website, presentation and booklet. Derek is also a Street Pastor in Glasgow and helps at Glasgow City Mission.
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Transcript
Did Jesus Truly Live, Die, and Rise Again?
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Did Jesus really live, die and rise from the dead? Using ancient sources, historical records and reasoned logic, Jesus the Evidence invites readers and listeners to explore the evidence and draw their own conclusions.
Introduction to 'Pep Talk' Podcast
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas. I am Simon Wenham, your co-host today, and I'm joined in the hot seat for the third time in a row by my distinguished colleague, Andy Bannister. Andy, how are you doing? Hey, I love the ah i love the adjective distinguished. That used fiver I put in the post to Oxford has clearly paid dividends, Simon. I need to see what happens with the tenner.
Introducing Derek McIntyre and 'Jesus, the Evidence'
00:00:48
Speaker
I'm doing well and it's ah great to be with you on the show today. And who have we got joining us? I think we've got a very exciting guest that your intro there has given a clue who it might be. We have indeed. je It's grant my great privilege to introduce our guest. and Now we all know people who have become Christians who then tell others about what's happened to them or possibly go into ministry eventually. But actually, i don't know anyone who has taken upon themselves to do what our guest is doing today, which we will talk about. So he is Derek McIntyre, the person behind Jesus, the evidence, a ministry that teaches people about who Jesus is. Derek, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me on.
00:01:29
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Now, Derek, you you literally go around the whole country giving presentations on the evidence for Jesus. and I actually had the privilege of attending one in Amesbury, Wiltshire, which I very much enjoyed. but Could you start us off by just saying a little bit about your own story and why on earth you decided to start doing that?
Derek's Early Agnosticism and Quest for Truth
00:01:46
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Well, i was um i would class I would have classified myself in my teens and my 20s as a resolute agnostic. And I really thought agnosticism was the only intellectually honest position you could take about this. um I never regarded myself as an atheist because I realized that atheism was a faith position, um but i I really thought you couldn't know for certain in one way or the other. So that was my view right up until my late 30s. When I got to my late 30s, I thought, you know, it would be nice to come to some kind of clear conclusions on this. um
00:02:27
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my thoughts were that if it's a load of old baloney, I wanted to know was a load of old baloney and I could forget about it and get on with living my earthly life. But if it wasn't a load of old baloney, well, clearly it's got massive implications for your life, this life and the life to come.
00:02:44
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um So I wanted to try and see if I could come to any clear conclusions on this.
Evidence of Jesus' Existence Surprises Derek
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So I basically dug into the historical and rational evidence for Jesus. And frankly, I was amazed at what i found.
00:02:59
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um um was amazed at the amount of evidence I found, him out and that the compelling evidence for for Jesus being who he said he was. ah That surprised me. I didn't think I was going to find compelling evidence, but I did. And Well, i ah felt I found all this compelling evidence and I thought, right, okay, there must be some atheistic stuff that will blow it all out the water.
00:03:26
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um So I went looking for that as well. And okay, there is some atheistic stuff out there, but it's nowhere near as compelling as the evidence for Jesus.
00:03:37
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So
Becoming a Christian in Mid-40s
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that was where i where I got my head at. And in my late fortyties sorry, my early, foot mid 40s, sorry, i um I did an alpha course and I i i got to the the end of the alpha course and I thought, right, okay, what am I going to do? I've still got questions, but I've i've seen enough to know that this looks pretty compelling. So I thought,
00:04:04
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I mean, it's really as boring as this. I'll give it a go. So I thought, i'll start i I'll start going to church and see what happens. I'll start reading the Bible and see what happens. And I'll start trying to pray and see what happens.
00:04:17
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And here I am talking to you now. um so I guess ah I became a Christian in my mid-40s. When I got to my... mom I've been a Christian for a couple of years, and I thought, you know, I had to do i had to do a lot a tremendous amount of digging about to get this the the evidence.
Founding a Ministry to Share Jesus' Evidence
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You know, it's all out there. It's not as if it's hidden away or anything like that, but if you tend to have to go to yeah a bit here and a bit hit there and so on and so forth. And I thought, you know, it'd be great if there was an organisation that... to
00:04:50
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that did these kind of things that I could get involved with and support and so on and so forth. um But I couldn't, at that time, I just couldn't find anything. Now, know you cannot do that sort of thing these days, but you weren't around when i when I was having these thoughts. So basically, I decided I'd just do it myself.
00:05:09
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um just It was as basic as that. and So some people might there think, did did you therefore make a decision to go into full-time ministry? Could you give a sense of how much um you are going around starting to tell people about Jesus? Oh, Okay, fair enough. um i I started off by doing, probably was doing maybe about 12 of them a year.
00:05:32
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ah I've got full-time, I had a full-time job. um I'm working part-time these days in a secular job, um but that's given me far more time to to go around the country doing this these presentations.
00:05:47
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Okay. So, yeah, um it started off, as I say, as as something I was doing ah when i when I had enough time to do it. But i got to I suppose I got to the end of COVID and I thought, you know, it'd be good to put a bit of oomph into this. And so i i've been I've been emailing churches and and suggesting to churches that they put this this kind of thing on.
Post-COVID Interest and Society's Knowledge of Jesus
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So it's it' it's it's really taken off post-COVID and it's yeah it's a great opportunity to to to share this this information with others and, as you say, allow them to draw their own conclusions.
00:06:27
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I love the, um you're a master of understatement because oomph is, I know very few people who work quite as hard as Hugh do. It seems fairly at barely a week goes by that you're in some other aspect of part of the country.
00:06:38
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kind of talking about this. But look, obviously, before we talk a bit about what you're doing and how you're kind of doing it within the church, is one thing by way of context, I suppose, we live in a strange time, kind of, don't we? Because in some ways, we're a we're a kind of post-post-Christian society. A few generations ago, you could have assumed everyone would kind of know about Jesus and our job was to go out and go, right, you know about Jesus, you've heard about him, let's help you understand why there's good evidence. Now we're probably in a society where...
00:07:03
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We'll obviously have to start further back at times, right? Because I come across people who've not only haven't heard of Jesus, but they've got no idea. How are you seeing the landscape out there? Has it shifted slightly in the time you've been doing this? and And how do you engage with people who perhaps have heard of Jesus, perhaps a bit older, but are sceptical right across to people who have got no idea who he is and what he claimed?
00:07:23
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Okay, well,
Engagement with Presentations on Jesus
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and you're right. Things have changed. um ah I would say when I started doing this, I got...
00:07:34
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a number of people came along, were kind positively antagonistic towards what I was saying and would would have a go at me at like the Q&A sessions at the end. Fair enough. Now, that that really doesn't happen so much anymore. um and People are coming along and they're they're interested to hear what I've got to say and they but they're interested in the whole the whole issue, I guess. and But as you say, there's ah you can't assume that people have... any knowledge of of Jesus or Christianity or God or whatever at all.
00:08:08
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ah yeah So it's that's definitely the case. And I suppose some of the older people, maybe not. But um yeah, I mean, all I'm wanting to try and do is just present this evidence, lay out in front of them and allow people to to make up their own minds. It's
00:08:29
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I'm not going to convince anybody to become a Christian, right? um That's the work of the Holy Spirit. And yeah, it's all I'm doing is just providing this evidence to hopefully get people in a position where they could consider the possibility of a relationship with Jesus Christ. And I really ah haven't really found any...
00:08:52
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any any massive differences in the way people engage with us, whether you're 20 or 70 or whatever. um No, I haven't found really any any clear differences at all. as Only ah and and maybe in terms of where where you're starting from, maybe the the knowledge you have at the start. um and It might be a bit less today but for for younger people than maybe older people.
00:09:20
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Hi there, it's Gavin from Solas here, just very briefly interrupting today's podcast to remind you that Solas' book, Have You Ever Wondered?, is now available. It's an ideal gift to give to people who aren't Christians, but people who are thinking through the big issues of life, beauty, justice, identity, love, stories, nature, hope, things which intrigue us, move us, and prompt us to ask big questions, but ultimately point towards the Christian faith. It's a pre-evanjistic book, and it's proven to be really helpful in developing good conversations with people in our world today about Jesus. if you'd like to find out more, come over to the SOLAS website, solas-cpc.org, where you can find out more, or look online in your usual bookseller or on the high street.
00:10:00
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And now, back to the program.
00:10:05
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and you you've Obviously, you present evidence to people. that That begs the question, are there particular types of evidence for Jesus that you find particularly compelling, or is it the case that you just give lots of information and that's how how you commend Jesus to people?
Reliability of the Gospels as Historical Sources
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i mean so I'll be interested to know, are are there specific arguments that you think are particularly good for communicating with people who may not believe that Jesus is who Christians believe him to be? Okay. Well, I think at the starting start point, where but I start in in the in the presentation, we look at the sources of evidence we have for Jesus and ask whether these sources are reliable or not. And I suppose one of the first things that that surprised me when I was i was on this journey, when I was an agnostic, was that the the Gospels are used by
00:10:56
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non-Christian historians as the basis for historical research in Jesus. Now, they just wouldn't do that if they thought there but it there were they were hopelessly corrupted or um just you know made up effectively. um So,
00:11:12
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You know, yeah that's that's where you we we should really go to get the best idea of who Jesus is, what his message is. And you you can you can trust the Gospels in that they are pretty accurate because, know, that's the view of today's historians that are far more capable than I am of of assessing the accuracy of the Gospels.
00:11:36
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So, you know, um I would direct people to to the Gospels, first of all. And you see in the Gospels, you know, why would the disciples why would the disles make all this up?
00:11:49
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You know, it's got no benefit for for the disciples at all of making this thing up. I remember somebody once said that in a Jesus' evidence presentation, you know, people only lie for for three things, sex, power, and money.
00:12:06
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naka all ah i I added a couple onto that. You can you could maybe do it because you don't you don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. It's a white lie, of course, and and it could be to get yourself out of trouble. Well, you know, the disciples were poor.
00:12:22
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um they were they were they were They didn't get any power ah out of out of proclaiming Jesus as the risen Son of God, and they um And they certainly weren't somehow attractive to women as a result of it. um And of course, ah you know it um and didn't get them out of trouble. So you know you have to ask yourself the question, you know why did they why were they presenting this as as something that had happened if they were lying? It just doesn't make any sense.
00:12:55
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the other um The other piece of this that I've always found interesting as well, I don't know if you've ah you talk about this in the presentations, Derek, because i mean everything you say, absolutely. The other thing that I sometimes think we forget is that the majority of the disciples were Jewish. They had a perfectly good faith they were proud of. you know Jews in the first century were proud of their faith and proud of their traditions, thousands of years behind them. You didn't just go and innovate. We live in an age today where like we're obsessed by the new The ancient world was the other way around. So to something to cause them to change and rewrite all of those beliefs, as I remember reading one theology who said, when you look at the change in their and their beliefs, it's as if a resurrection-shaped bomb went off in first century Judaism. And if you take the resurrection out, you have this massive job to do
00:13:41
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to explain the change ah that the cost of many of them their lives. Not all of them, they didn't all lose their lives what they believed, but some of them did, and they didn't squeal, they didn't squeak. So again, the motivation factor ah is a really interesting one, I think.
00:13:56
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Yes, indeed. um you know And it's interesting, and when you read the Gospels you well gospels and Letters of Paul, it's clear that the disciples...
00:14:09
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yeah know made a number of changes to what they believed and and how they behaved, and it wasn't easy for them. um ah but you know if You're effectively ostracizing yourself from your your entire community, your whole life, and as you say, it was um it was a religion they were steeped in and it was very, very difficult for them. um you know Why would you do that if you you know if you didn't believe you had actually seen Jesus alive?
Strengthening Faith Through Evidence
00:14:40
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Absolutely. and One thing that um really struck me about you, ah Derek, is you have a real hunger for learning. and One thing i I wanted to ask you was whether your studies have given you new insights into Jesus or strengthened your convictions, because I know you're you're continually looking at new sources and rethinking about things. i was wondering, is there anything through your journey presenting this that has actually strengthened your faith?
00:15:07
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Oh, yeah. i mean it's I mean, I do a number of other things. ah ah I guess probably the other things but have there been, the you know, i'm I'm a street pastor in Glasgow and I've helped at the Glasgow City Mission and and so on. I think these things probably more more more than the the evidence for for for Jesus have informed my...
00:15:31
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ah informed my Christianity post making a decision than, well, I mean, yeah, I mean, the the evidence is compelling. You know, anytime I ever have any doubts, you know, I go back to the evidence, you know, there's a solid core of evidence here and it and it helps to just get me back on the right track, if you like. Hmm.
00:15:57
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When it comes to the evidence, so here's a slightly different ah question, I guess, that rises from this. You've obviously spent a lot of time studying this, not least because this is part of your own journey to faith, Derek. So when you sort of share this with with Christians, when you're teaching in in in churches, how do you respond to somebody who might say, gosh, you know this is great. You're obviously ah you know academically wired. You may not be a traditional academic, but you you're a reader, you're a thinker. do we need to be able to master all of this vast array of material to share our faith with our with our friends? How do you help people overcome the perhaps the the risk they might look at this and go, like I can't do this. I'm not as smart as Derek.
00:16:36
Speaker
Well, I think they probably are. But yeah, I mean, I guess, as I say, many, many people just know in their hearts it's true. And that's fantastic.
00:16:49
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That's fantastic. But it's nice to know if when you're having conversations with other other non-Christians, you can you have the confidence to be able to say, yeah, there's ah there's a solid core of evidence at the base of my my my faith, which I know in my heart to be true.
00:17:07
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It's important for for people that need knowledge cursed people like me that need evidence, you know, that to be ah out of which there are millions of people like that out there, you know. um So, you know, it should be used in the right way with the right people. and But even even if you're not going to use it, it's nice to know that you've got this...
00:17:32
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this solid foundation of evidence. um So that if somebody says to you, know what well, is there evidence for Jesus? Well, there you are. you've got You've got something to give them right away.
00:17:43
Speaker
the The other thing that really struck me ah attending your talk is that you you present lots of evidence for Jesus, but actually a lot of what you're doing is focusing on evangelism.
Evangelistic Nature of Presentations
00:17:55
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Can you say a little bit about how you make your presentations evangelistic?
00:18:00
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Okay. um Well, I yeah i guess um um I give people the opportunity at the end when we talk about, you know, okay, you've heard all this evidence, is it important to you?
00:18:12
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um And we talk a little bit about transformed lives and and what benefit it will bring for a faith in Jesus Christ will bring to your life and the lives of those around you um so we we we get an opportunity an opportunity to i get an opportunity to talk about that and we talk about that in the question and answers session at the end if anybody if nobody ands asks me the question I'll ask it myself and give and give an opportunity to to hear you know you know why would you bother you know um so that's that's really what i focus on
00:18:47
Speaker
Fantastic. And could you say, and also you have a booklet, and I think you mentioned ah to us before that you also invite, encourage people to invite non-Christians to your presentations. Is that right? Very much so. Very much so. and the The idea is, really the the whole idea of the presentations is it's is to to bring as many non-Christians into the into the the room to hear the evidence and allow them, as I say, to make their own minds up. Now, I know I'm firing a lot of information at people,
00:19:16
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ah and in a one evening presentation. That's why I produced the booklet. The booklet's there really just to provide the opportunity for people to go away and digest what they've heard and to mull it over, review it, and and I guess come to their own conclusions. is very It's very hard and in two 40-minute presentations to get everything out there. yeah and for people to make up their minds based on that. So that's what the purpose of the booklet is, although the booklet can also be read on its own. And and I know people have found it very helpful in in providing the the the bare bones of the evidence, if you like, and allow them to to to do their own research or their own reading and so on.
Impactful Stories of Commitment to Jesus
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I think the other thing as well that that I was reminded of as you as you shared that, I think also the other thing I'm increasingly persuaded of is people who perhaps you know are not necessarily wouldn't necessarily think themselves as thinkers have assumptions. And to simply, if you're a skeptic, to sit in a room and hear somebody like you do two 40-minute presentations with slide decks and and evidence, even if you can't process it all, it's world-shifting potentially to go away and go, oh, hello.
00:20:29
Speaker
This is a guy who's fairly ordinary and has done some work, and there's shed loads of stuff out there. I at least need to to think about this. But look, on the booklet, which I love that idea, have you got any stories? of ah so Because obviously when we work in ministry, it's always great to hear people feedback to us. Have you got any kind of stories that have encouraged you in the last wee while of perhaps we've come to events? so So go ahead, do share something, because i'd love to hear how this lands. I was at a presentation ah in Jewsby the Minster,
00:20:57
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earlier on this year. Now, it's normal that people will ask questions and and so on and and you can see light bulbs going on in people's heads and so on. But it's very rare in a presentation for anyone to to give their life to Jesus.
00:21:15
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And it happened in Dewsbury, Minster. um it was I think it's fair to say that the the person was had done a number of things. you She was obviously on a journey. This just removed the last few things that were going that were but but preventing her.
00:21:33
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And so so she gave her life to Christ at the at the meeting, which was, as you can imagine, phenomenal. um And i've heard I've heard a number of people who have been, this has been instrumental in getting them into a position where they where they could consider a relationship with Jesus Christ and have made that step.
00:21:53
Speaker
Fantastic. Yeah. and And like Andy said, actually, one one thing that struck me is you're quite understated in your delivery. And I really like that because I think sometimes when you go to an evangelistic talk, you expect sort of someone to very strongly kind of make emotional um arguments perhaps. And I like the fact that you said, actually, this is what convinced me. And that, you know, this is you were using words that were quite measured in in your delivery. um but But you've also mentioned people's journey. What's what but you What point are you're sort of obviously giving evidence. Do you also suggest people pray or do you yourself pray as you're as you're giving your presentations? i'm always interested to see sort of how you're sort of encouraging people to grow and consider Jesus.
00:22:38
Speaker
yeah why What I'm encouraging people to do as is it take this seriously. and And I guess I'm also a major in the booklet about read the Gospels for yourself and allow God to speak to you through the Gospels. And people ah will often ask me, OK, you've done a lot of research, what do you do?
00:23:03
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what book should I should i be be picking up to read about this? um and um And I ah will always say, read the Gospels, read the Gospels. You know that they're they're pretty reliable, so you can trust them and read the Gospels. And yeah that's the way God communicates with us.
00:23:21
Speaker
you know So that's that's the the focus, I guess. Yeah, I think i'd so that's great advice and ah great place to end on, actually. I think as you know as we hopefully, as people have listened to you talk about this and perhaps been inspired to have these kind of conversations with themselves, with their friends, to talk about Jesus, to bring people back to that point of looking the Gospels and praying, those are great initial steps.
Engaging with Derek's Ministry
00:23:45
Speaker
But look, in terms of you and your ministry, if people listening to this have got inspired and are intrigued and perhaps like to engage with you, there's the booklet you you do, there's the presentation that you bring around to churches, Derek, how can people find out more about Jesus the Evidence, what you do, and even find out how to get you to come ah to their church? What's the best for people get up to? There's a website, JesusTheEvidence.com. There's contact details there.
00:24:09
Speaker
I'm always looking for a gig. So and ah ah anybody and anybody, anywhere in the country, I will go to. I've been... As far north as Orteley, as far west as their celebrities the and far south as, ah well, i'm I'm going down to St Ives in the autumn, and I'm going to Ramsgate. I think that's that that's the furthest east you can go. um So yeah I'm more than happy to go anywhere.
00:24:38
Speaker
um And it's what I would say is that the the Jesus the Evidence evening, it's a nice, easy outreach event if you if you've got if it's a church you want if if you're a church and you're thinking about doing a bit of outreach in your community. Insofar as it's one evening, it's non-threatening, um'm not using church language in it, um yeah know that it's not toe-curling so... um Yeah, um it's a nice, easy thing to to maybe start off your you're evangelistic work you're doing in the community.
00:25:14
Speaker
Fantastic. And the other thing, by the way, to encourage people, we do a lot of this at Solas too. I think things like your event are also great if you're thinking as a church of, say, running the Alpha Course of Christianity Explored, you know put an event on like Jesus the Evidence or a Solas Confident Christianity, that kind of thing. And then off the back of that, you can launch your Alpha Course. Undoubtedly.
00:25:33
Speaker
Yeah, because then people come get a taster. So anyway, we'll put a link to the website into the show notes so people can go and and figure that out and get you along. And let's hope we can add perhaps a few more compass points and to your ah to your ministry map in the in the wee while to come. So Derek, it's been an absolute joy and a pleasure to have you back for a second time. Very few people have made it twice on Tep Talk, but you're so busy. You thought it was time to catch up again. Derek McIntyre, you've been a great guest. Thank for being with us today.
00:26:01
Speaker
Thank you very much. Cheers. And I've been Andy Bannister. That's been Simon Wenham. And we will join you again a couple of weeks time for another episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solace. God bless you. Have a wonderful week.