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Our World As Witness (with Xandra Grieme)
3 Playsin 17 hours
God reveals Himself to humanity in two "books" - the Bible and Creation. We're used to using the Bible to explain the gospel, but is it possible to use the natural world to draw people to Christ? Andy Bannister and Simon Wenham explore this possibility with American biologist Xandra Grieme.
Xandra's book is Forty Answers From Nature: What We Can Learn about God, Life, and Ourselves by Studying the Natural World and her website is Biopologetics.com
Xandra Grieme is a speaker and author. Her scientific research began with studies in parasite behavior. She later worked in a human blood lab developing treatments for blood cancer until finally moving on to conservation of songbirds in New Zealand. Xandra also studied theology at OCCA The Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics, which inspired her to begin writing on the philosophy of science. Xandra has spent extended time living and researching abroad in Asia, Africa, Oceania, and the UK. She is passionate about educating Christians on our role as stewards of God’s natural world. Xandra currently lives in Colorado where hikes through the Rocky Mountains are a constant reminder of God’s power and goodness.
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Transcript
Introduction: Nature and Spirituality
00:00:00
Speaker
Even today, the instruction of nature shines a light on profound truths about its creator, about the human spirit, and about the wonders of the universe.
00:00:19
Speaker
In a church service I attended last year, the pastor spoke about Jesus' resurrection by giving an unusual example. He spoke about how in nature we see that plants die, but life can then re-emerge through its seeds. It was a very simple illustration, but it was very memorable for me personally because it got me thinking about the relationship between the natural world and Christianity. And in fact, there is a long tradition of seeing God as speaking to us through two books, the Bible on the one hand and creation on the other.
00:00:47
Speaker
But I expect that most of us will know more about how to evangelize through the Bible than through nature.
Introduction to 'Pep Talk' and Zandra Grimi
00:00:54
Speaker
So that is what we're discussing in this episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas.
00:01:00
Speaker
I'm Simon Wenham, and I'm pleased to be joined by my co-presenter, the force of nature that is Andy Bannister. Andy, how are you doing? I'm doing great, ah Simon. I've been called um many things in my life, but that's the first time I've been called that one. No, actually, I've been called that many times before. But so great to be with you, ah co-hosting ah this episode. And we have an amazing guest on the show. So why don't you tell us, Simon, who have we got joining us on Pep Talk today?
00:01:25
Speaker
We do indeed. yeah We're in great company. we're I'm delighted to introduce our guest today. She is Zandra Grimi. It's her quote that we started the show with today. She's a speaker and author whose ministry focuses on communicating about the physical world and showing how it fits with a Christian worldview.
00:01:43
Speaker
Zandra, welcome to the show.
Zandra's Journey: From Biology to Apologetics
00:01:45
Speaker
and I wondered if you could just start us off by just saying a little bit about your own background and how you got involved in evangelism and perhaps how the natural world fits within that.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, I started off ah studying biological science, um forest ecology specifically, and then moved into um a ah time of questioning my faith and stepping away from God and um dealing with some really big questions about life and what I believed and why. um And then through a series of events, came back to the Lord and became really passionate about having an answer for those questions. And that's when I got interested in Christian apologetics and um heard about that program in Oxford. i was living in China at the time. And thought, well, i may as well apply and just see what happens. And that's how I ended up out there and met you and all sorts of lovely people who deeply enriched me. And um the Lord in His grace doesn't waste anything. So all of that biological training sort of got roped in to um apologetics and evangelism.
00:02:55
Speaker
And of course, my path and your path also crossed when I was in Canada and you were down in the USA. So I remember doing various university missions kind of with you um up in those early days
Nature as a Spiritual Tool
00:03:04
Speaker
in Canada. But look, we're talking today, um as Simon shared in his introduction about nature and about the whole this whole idea that ah that you've written a whole book about, which we'll come to in a moment, but this whole idea of using nature as a way in,
00:03:17
Speaker
to talking about God. And perhaps the first question, Sandra, to throw to you is why do you think nature is really, really effective? You're obviously very passionate about it. You know, a source of, ah you know, full disclosure, I am as as well, but we're here to talk about you. Why do you think this is such a fantastic route for talking about ah the gospel? I suppose especially with people who might be more on the fringe of things, hovering around, exploring spirituality, sort of open to those kind of things, but perhaps you might otherwise have dismissed the church, what is nature? Why is nature so effective?
00:03:50
Speaker
It's a great question. i think part of the answer is that nature is extremely beautiful um and it affects us as as natural organisms as well. um I think about you know when you hear a really incredible symphony and you are you are moved by that. It's like the music happens to you more than you listening to the music.
00:04:14
Speaker
And it's a similar thing when you're out on a walk in a forest. Things happen to you. Things happen to your spirit um with that connection with nature. And I think that's designed by God. And C.S. Lewis often wrote about how transcendental things like beauty and truth and goodness can sneak past the watchful dragons of the heart. And I think a lot of people have a guardedness over their heart about God and about spiritual things. And nature has a way of stepping past that and awakening deeper spiritual things. um I like that Simon mentioned it's the second book that God wrote. God wrote two books and he speaks through both of them
Bioapologetics: Bridging Science and Faith
00:04:55
Speaker
to us. And a lot of people aren't going to open the Bible and hear what he has to say, but you go out into nature and um and have experiences and see the fingerprints of the creator there.
00:05:06
Speaker
and Thank you. And one of your approaches is is you've you've coined the term bio biopologetics. So if I can get it right, and I'm very jealous you've invented a word. Or maybe you haven't. Where where did you come up with that word? And what what do you mean by that?
00:05:20
Speaker
I did coin it. I don't know if that points to my hubris or what, but um you know Shakespeare coined all sorts of words. I'm like, well, there's no word that describes what i'm what I'm trying to say here. So maybe I'll just come up with something until someone can come up with something better. And I know it's a bit clunky, bioapologetics, but um using biology, using what we see in nature as an apologetic word.
00:05:46
Speaker
for God, because the scriptures say that what he has made um testifies to him, to his goodness, to his power. And those who stand before it with open eyes and truly receive that and see that are kind of without excuse because he's made himself known through that creation. And so, bioapologetics is a way of drawing on those things. sometimes through an analogy, sometimes through the argument for a design, wine which we can talk more about later. um and And so that's kind of why I coined that term. I also wonder whether, um before we come to the the the book that you've written, there's also something really important here as well, that sometimes that the people that we we find the hardest to reach are those who do like to go out into nature and who who have those kind of experiences, don't know where to put them.
00:06:33
Speaker
Then they look at the church and see it just being sort of quite dry and and perhaps sort of scholastic in the way we approach things, and then conclude there's nothing there to be to be done. The two people who spring to mind, kind of for me, from sort of perhaps different ends of the nature-writing chronological timescale, you look at something Muir, ah you know' sort of one of the fathers National Park movement in the USA. i mean He comes from good Presbyterian Scottish stock,
00:06:59
Speaker
And then, ah you know, then falls in love with and with nature. And basically his base father tells him, who's a preacher, I think, it's all the waste of time, you know forget your glaciers and just read the Bible. And of course, you're a bell. Now, thankfully, he comes back to faith. But 50 years, he's lost to the church almost because he was told that it doesn't fit there.
00:07:18
Speaker
And then the other one I thought was thinking of is before the show began, we were talking about a book I recommended, ah the Peregrine, classic of nature writing by J.A. Baker. And he opens that book with the quote, the hardest thing of all is to see what is really there.
00:07:32
Speaker
And I think nature allows us a way into that because it raises that question, what is going on? You don't have to spend vast amounts of time in nature, whether it's immersed in a woodland, a mountain walk, or watching wildlife, to begin finding yourself going, there must be more than just this. There has to be a bigger story here. So could you talk a little bit into how you're finding your approach and why this approach is really helpful, I guess, for those spiritual but not religious types who've sort of seen something in nature but then don't know what to do with it. And then we'll come to the book.
00:08:04
Speaker
Yeah. and And that's, that's a great point that spirituality is on the rise in the Western world. Um, and this, this interest in spirituality, but still people balk at the church. And I'm curious about that. Um, I think a lot of it is preconceptions, which is why in the book I talk a lot about, maybe you've heard it said that Jesus is this way or the church is this way. Um,
00:08:27
Speaker
It reminds me of recently, i had a funny experience. um A couple of buddies and I went to a friend of ours to visit his home. um He's an author and and a theologian, and he's got these interesting trinkets all over his house, just weird old things. And There was this strange kind of brass looking tube on a table. And my friend said, Oh, what's this? And he said, it's a kaleidoscope and picks it up, gives it to him to have a look. And of course, he puts it to his eye and starts turning it and he just starts shouting, Whoa!
00:09:00
Speaker
which I thought was a really over the top reaction, hands it to my other buddy who does the same thing, starts shouting. I'm like, what is going on? So I try it. And it was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. I cannot describe to you what was going on inside of this kaleidoscope.
00:09:15
Speaker
um But their reaction at the beginning seemed a bit silly to me because I'm like, what can be such a big deal about this? And for me, I think that nature is like that kaleidoscope.
00:09:26
Speaker
When you actually open your eyes to it and and you immerse yourself in it, you see something that goes beyond. You see a light coming through that plays through the colors of that nature that is absolutely stunning and clarifying. And I think a lot of people are interested in nature, interested in spirituality, but they don't want the church because of past hurts or because they have this misconception, like what is this stupid brass tube lying here on the table? It's probably not useful or at worst, you know, it's hurt a hurtful thing. A lot of people have that view of the church. So I think it's um it's a way in, you know, a form of persuasive evangelism, if if you will, and a very useful tool.
Books and Stories: Engaging with Faith
00:10:11
Speaker
Hi there, it's Gavin from Solas here, just very briefly interrupting today's podcast to remind you that Solas' book, Have You Ever Wondered?, is now available. It's an ideal gift to give to people who aren't Christians, but people who are thinking through the big issues of life, beauty, justice, identity, love, stories, nature, hope, things which intrigue us, move us, and prompt us to ask big questions, but ultimately point towards the Christian faith. It's a pre-evangelistic book, and it's proven to be really helpful in developing good conversations with people in our world today about Jesus. if you'd like to find out more, come over to the Solas website, solas-cpc.org, where you can find out more or look online in your usual bookseller or on the high street.
00:10:51
Speaker
And now, back to the program.
00:10:55
Speaker
and the The book we've been referring to is 40 Answers in Nature, which is it's it's looking at different sort of cultural questions through the lens of nature. and and We absolutely loved it. You're essentially storytelling through a particular sort of scientific hook whether it's referring to the Pacific red octopus breathing life into its offspring before dying, and you make a point about Jesus's death, or the importance of guardian trees in a forest, and you're talking about the spiritual spiritual leaders falling and and hurting others. and it's It's a very creative and and pretty unique book. and I love the way it also starts by a big picture of ah a tardigrade, which is quite a striking image in itself. and I'd love to know, what
00:11:37
Speaker
why Why that approach particularly? and In a sense, your yourre storytelling through nature and then linking it to faith. Can you explain why you sort of opted for that that route in?
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose I wanted to create a journey that people could take that started with kind of a general general questions about, you know, identity. It kind of starts with looking inward. Who am i What do I think about humanity and identity? And then it starts to move outward, looking out at nature. What can we learn about this? And then it draws up. And the the final section is really about, okay, who is God as a person? what's his identity? Is he trustworthy? Is he something I can put my stock in? um
00:12:25
Speaker
So that's kind of why I chose the the form of the book in that. um And the the illustrations actually were done by my brother, who's a professional artist and has developed this style of pointillism that i find really beautiful and fascinating. But I thought that would be helpful because so many of these organisms are things that people have never seen or heard of in their lives. And I wanted them to be able to kind of have something to to picture, but it's a little, maybe a little, um I don't know, when I don't want to say Aesop's fables, but you know, some something that you can learn from nature each time, but it's designed to be short. and that The chapters are just meant to be read really quickly before you go to bed on this 40 day journey. And um so yeah.
00:13:09
Speaker
I wouldn't be um embarrassed, by the way, about the the Aesop's kind of fable parallel. Because at the back of my mind, when you said that, I was thinking, you know, J.R.R. Tolkien ah with his you know his famous essay on fairy tales, where he was very much to the view that all those classical myths and stories are just a shadow of the of the true story. So in a sense, actually, it's okay to to say, yeah, there are some there are some ah some parallels here. Yeah, I...
00:13:36
Speaker
You asked a question a bit earlier about how how do we reach the people who um are interested in spirituality, interested in nature, but they're not interested in church? How do we as Christians do that? And I had an experience recently where I kind of just saw this happen before my eyes. Um,
00:13:53
Speaker
So I don't know if you read all the way to the end of the book, but I mentioned there in the concluding remarks that I have an alarm on my phone set to 1.20 p.m. And every day at 1.20 p.m. I pray Romans 1.20 over people in my life who don't know the Lord, that He would reveal Himself to them through nature.
00:14:13
Speaker
And recently I was on a hike with two friends, both of whom are atheists. And we were about to summit, you know, the zenith of James Peak. And it had been a very challenging um hike. We had had a moose encounter. We were all exhausted. But my alarm went off.
00:14:30
Speaker
And so I stopped my phone and they said, oh what's that alarm? And I explained to them what it is. And they said, well, why don't you pray? And so I prayed there on the top of this mountain with these two atheist women. And one of them broke down and cried and said, I don't think I've ever heard anyone pray before. i didn't realize that's what prayer was. And so being in nature as a Christian woman and inviting these two other women who didn't know God to stop and and observe and thank him, just to have a moment of thanks for what he has made in this beautiful day and um and showing himself to us was was very impactful, I think, for both of them and very much for me. i was like, oh, okay, it's working.
00:15:12
Speaker
That's wonderful to hear. mean, that gives a different meaning meaning to the mountaintop experience, it doesn't it? It's wonderful. We should stress that you're you're in Colorado, is that right? and Yeah. Just to explain the moose encounter for people who are maybe wondering where where you are. Do you not have those in in Oxfordshire? That's right. not Not so many. Very small deer, I think. that yeah and I was actually going to ask that question a bit later, but now you' you've mentioned it. So obviously you have sort of arguments and you're referring to nature, but what what part does prayer play in sort of your evangelistic model? Because there's so much, obviously, that you're referring to nature and making making these arguments. where Where does that fit in?
00:15:53
Speaker
where does Where does prayer fit into my evangelism? Yeah. question Yeah, well, um I think i I try to pray before I ever have any of these conversations because – knowledge can go so far, but the Holy Spirit can gallop past any barrier far more quickly than my logical um argumentation can sort of chip away at that. And um I really enjoy the language of the New Testament that emphasizes that we are co-laborers with Christ as we continue on His work. And so I think prayer um means we're inviting Him into that. So, um yeah, and he's he's the Lord of nature. I mean, nature was created by him, for him, and through him. um so I would do well to stop and and ask the Lord of nature to come in and help. And there have been so many times when he just gives me the exact word to say. um And I could not do any of this without
Urban Nature and Spirituality
00:16:58
Speaker
him, for sure. Even even that first chapter on the tardigrades that you mentioned, Simon,
00:17:03
Speaker
That was not originally the first chapter of the book. And I was so stuck and and again, had to go on one of my very long hikes and just pray and ask God, please show me what to say, show me what to what to say here. And he just, that sort of popped into my head. So that was a gift from him. So prayer is integral to all of this work. Do you know, it's funny you say that I had the sort of reverse of that story on one of my books, my Muslims and Christians book. I was struggling with the last chapter. I went for a very long hike. It was during lockdown in our local woods. And I prayed and prayed and prayed. And then suddenly sort of inspiration came. i grabbed my phone out because I'd forgotten to take a notepad, call myself writer. and So it was dictating notes at high speed. But it was, yeah, the combination of being out in nature and then and then praying.
00:17:46
Speaker
Look, one thing I wanted to ask, though, um perhaps a slightly left-field kind of question. what One possible objection, the objection's too strong a word to this, but one possible yeah-but moment might be, what about people who live in cities, right? So to go for, you know, you're in Colorado, you've got you've got a few mountains there.
00:18:02
Speaker
You know, Simon, well, Simon's in Oxford. It's got a couple of parks. But Wiltshire, we've got rolling downs everywhere. But some people listening to this are in cities where they're surrounded by by concrete, right? Is this approach only suitable for a kind of rural kind of people or is there a way of kind of using it to make connections wherever you are? what you Have you thought about that one?
00:18:23
Speaker
I would say the latter. i would say connections to to wherever you are. um Nature is all around us. Nature is in in the beautiful clouds above.
00:18:35
Speaker
um It's in you know the bird song that you might hear even even if you're in a city. And the act worshiping God through creation care happens all the time, whether or not you're living in a forest. Um, maybe you have a pet dog or a pet cat. Um, how are you going to care for that animal in a way that, um, that is worshipful toward the creator who, who made them, they are creation in and of, in in a sense. Um,
00:19:08
Speaker
So yeah, i think I think nature is all around us and what we do with you know our our rubbish, what we do with our trash, um how we are using water, what we are eating, all of those things are affecting the wider world of nature. And it's possible to be worshipful through all of that stuff. And I think even just pausing and listening, you'll be surprised what you'll hear in a city.
00:19:29
Speaker
There's an old story that's told of a city man who goes for a walk with an old Navajo chief who in New York and the Navajo chief stops and says to the businessman, listen to that beautiful Jay singing.
00:19:45
Speaker
And the businessman stops and says, I didn't hear anything. And the Navajo chief pulls some coins out and scatters them on the sidewalk and everyone stops and looks.
00:19:55
Speaker
And he said the sound of the J was the same ah strength as that coin, but people aren't used to listening. So I think a big part of this is tuning ourselves to nature as well.
Call to Engage with Nature and Stewardship
00:20:09
Speaker
By the way, just before Simon jumps in with a question, little plug, actually. I've just discovered, maybe you're ah you're more ahead of me on this, is a wonderful little app for people who like that story called the Merlin app, which is a free app by Cornell University where you can just hold it out and it will listen to the bird song and it will tell you what you're listening to. so if you're walking through the city or you're in the woods, you can you can be told at least what you're listening to. And I don't think it's true i don't think they've trained it on listening to the jingle of coins.
00:20:35
Speaker
I can't identify how much money has been dropped. That's right. And i I thought I had quite a good pigeon noise impression and it it wasn't recognizing it much to my um disgust. I thought it was very good. but I suppose that's that's a lovely point about, I mean, would you say that we should be sort of as Christians more engaged with nature? I suppose in the modern world, we're all on our screens now. And is there a sort of wider point to be made about the way our sort of culture is going and the need for perhaps the church and us to be re-enchanted with with nature in general? um We were discussing a little bit about some figures that we we know, Paul Kingsnorth and Martin Shaw, where we heard a podcast, and they were they were people who actually came together
00:21:18
Speaker
to faith through nature, but they were very focused on nature first and then that was how they came in. i mean Do you think we should be doing more of that as Christians anyway, irrespective of the sort of ah you know just the way the culture is going?
00:21:34
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. I'm glad you bring it up. And to use your words, I would say not only re-enchanted by nature, but re-enchanting nature.
00:21:44
Speaker
um Because when we read through the beautiful picture painted for us in Genesis, we see that God created mankind to steward the earth.
00:21:56
Speaker
And to to certainly fill and and multiply and um subdue the earth. But what that means, what that dominion means is not just using it to our advantage or abusing it by any means. Um,
00:22:11
Speaker
but working with nature for something greater. And I find it really interesting that ah there's a lot that's been written through the years in conservation biology, secular research that has shown that people groups who respectfully use and involve themselves with nature end up in a landscape with the highest biodiversity.
00:22:35
Speaker
And biodiversity is the way by which we measure the health of an ecosystem. So it's almost like the presence of human beings is upping the health and functionality of an ecosystem, which is really counterintuitive to this philosophy that if we're going to preserve nature, we need to put a fence around it and leave it alone. And so what I see more in the story of Genesis is that we are meant to involve ourselves with nature and subdue and and bring it back to the feet of Jesus. And and what does that mean? Well, ultimately we have these um apocalyptic pictures you know in in Revelation and um other Old Testament prophet books and stuff about how you know the the wolf will lie down with the lamb and um you know the the bear will eat straw like an ox. And so it's this picture of nature coming back to peace, coming back to um how it was always meant to be. But the amazing thing is that starts now.
00:23:33
Speaker
And we are God's hands and feet on this earth. And so bringing that peace to nature and to humanity and to nature and humanity together is something that can begin even now. And and as I read the the papers coming out of Reconciliation Ecology, it's just really exciting what people are doing to make a way for for that. And I think as Christians, this is a really exciting time for us to take part in.
Conclusion and Further Engagement
00:24:00
Speaker
Well, that was a great place to bring the conversation to a close. We've covered so much how we can use nature in evangelism. I think that's a great ah call at the end for Christians to be more involved in nature and take nature more seriously. And by the way, to involved with the green movement, because I think sometimes we've abandoned that.
00:24:17
Speaker
And for people who are perhaps attempt tempted to protest and go, oh, it's a bit liberal to go, the only reason that that's the case is because Christians withdrew. if we get back in there, um you know, ecology is should be very much part of our theology.
00:24:29
Speaker
But Zandra, how can people find the book or how can people follow your work? I think, I believe you've like a YouTube channel and other kind of stuff. Tell us how people can find more about you. And we'll put a link to all of that into the show notes as well. But give give yourself a plug. How can people follow what you're doing?
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, thanks thanks for the plug. and I always feel strange plugging myself. Like, oh, I'm so great. Buy my stuff. But if it's a blessing to you and or a blessing specifically to a skeptic or a seeker that you know who's interested in nature, interested in spiritual things, but very hesitant about the church, this is a great book um and even something you could read along with them. So you can find that and my other books on my website, which biopologetics.com.
00:25:12
Speaker
Um, and there are links to my YouTube channel and all sorts of other things. If you aren't tired of hearing me talk already, you can go listen to some more talks and podcasts. Um, and as always, I love receiving emails, love, uh, talking to people who maybe have a seeker or skeptic in their lives that they're in conversation with. And they're just like, how do i go next in this conversation? um always love that. So please feel free to reach out. And if I can be a resource in any way, I'm always happy to. Well, fantastic. Zandra, thank you once again for being on Pep Talk. It's been fantastic talking to you. And join us again in a couple of weeks' time for another episode, another topic, and another guest. Thanks for listening and bye for now.