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Faith in the Feed (with Richard Matthews)
208 Plays8 days ago
Following in the footsteps of Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk and Donald Trump, today's PEP Talk guest runs a social media platform. It may be a bit smaller than X or Facebook, but it's purpose is much narrower and nobler. As Christians grapple with what it means to live out their faith online, the team at Grow Faith has built a platform just for them. Simon Wenham finds out more...
Richard Matthews is co-founder and COO of Grow Faith, which produces the Grow app.
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Transcript
Jamie's Transformative Experience in Colombia
00:00:10
Speaker
When I was 18, I was no longer attending church, but still felt God had a plan for my life. I went to a Christian conference in Colombia, which changed everything. There was a presentation for a mobile game developed for children, which challenged me on how, as Christians, we should be using technology.
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:27
Speaker
This led to the idea of a Christian social platform, which eventually evolved into what Grow is today. Well, welcome everyone to another edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas.
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm Simon Wenham, your host today. And that was a quote from Jamie Matthews, one of the co-founders of Grow Faith.
Social Media in the Digital Age
00:00:47
Speaker
And that introduces what we are talking about today, social media.
00:00:52
Speaker
Now, expect this is a topic that many of us have quite strong opinions about. A notable feature, in fact, of the last few pep talks has been guests like Laura Hancock and Matthew Neerman, both talking about how we're living in an increasingly digital age.
00:01:07
Speaker
and I was reflecting on social media just last week, actually, as one of our speakers, Gavin Matthews, posted up a number of very nice videos from ancient sites in Athens. And he used these as a way of talking about the early church.
00:01:20
Speaker
And I remember thinking two things. One is that they were very eye-catching and engaging. And the other is that I i simply wouldn't do that myself. And I hope that's why today's discussion is so interesting for everyone, because I'm sure many of us have different experiences is of social media.
Motivation Behind Grow Faith
00:01:39
Speaker
So to open up the topic, we have a guest today who has the notable distinction of having created his own social media platform. ah Now, I'm afraid it's not Donald Trump talking about Truth Social, but I'm delighted to introduce Richard Matthews, the co-founder of Grove Faith and father, incidentally, of Jamie Matthews, whose quote I started the show with.
00:02:00
Speaker
ah Richard, welcome to the show. and I wondered if before we get into the topic, ah you could just say a little bit about your own background and how on earth you came to start your own social media platform.
00:02:13
Speaker
Yes. Well, it was interesting, really, sort of how it all started. So um i'm ah I'm married to Catherine. I've got three children in their 20s. And the the eldest child, Jamie, who you quoted earlier on, and um he was really struggling in his faith. You know, we at that point, we had three teenagers and um he really... um was was wondering what he could do you know in his life and he was he was far from god at that stage but he came with me um to columbia he kept saying no but he he did come with me eventually and we went to this amazing conference and it was just filled with the holy spirit in that conference and we were both changed during that conference i actually had some healing from leukemia which was wonderful
00:02:55
Speaker
And he um was was really um transformed in terms of um he then had lots of friends, which he was lacking before. um But later on in the in that week, he he was just inspired by this particular um presentation that he saw where they actually had some really good, high quality um gaming products aimed at at children.
00:03:15
Speaker
And he just thought, yeah, I would love to use my skills. He was a very brand new developer at that stage. He only had been um writing code for about two years at that point. But I think that seed was was very much embedded into his life because um over the next three years, he he started taking it further. And um it was like a Christian Reddit to start with and eventually morphed into um what Grow is now, the Grow app.
Vision for a Distraction-Free Social Platform
00:03:39
Speaker
which is ah like a Christian Instagram um with ah sort of with a fusion of things like YouVersion with devotional plans on there as well. And the idea of creating this this platform was really, i guess, to bring in a much fresher, perspective into what social media can really be because um as probably many of your um listeners will uh will you know think themselves you know social media can be distracting it can be toxic it can be just plain horrible really and we we have changed that we we could talk about grow being
00:04:14
Speaker
social media reinvented because we we think there's a ah role for Christians to have a platform where they can live out their faith without all the advertising, without all the distractions, um time where they can spend 100% with God and with other Christians and with his word and worship songs, etc.
00:04:31
Speaker
And we just think that can really change the the atmosphere and the environment and really help people build their faith. Thank you. Well, that's one of those very interesting ah life-changing moments that you say that we often hear with with God, isn't it? That you both went to this conference and and a huge ah difference came out of it. So that yeah, it's wonderful to hear.
00:04:51
Speaker
I suppose some people might be listening and and saying, and this is all very well, good idea, but actually why do we need a Christian social media platform?
Christian Engagement on Social Media
00:04:59
Speaker
would Isn't this just putting us in a silo and actually ah don't we need Christians out in the world? what What would you say to someone who might say that? so I think it's, um I think that, you know, I would agree with that statement that um we we do have to um think about, you know, where we want to put our time and effort into it. I do i do think Christians need to be on social media platforms that aren't Christian as well.
00:05:24
Speaker
um But I think... the difference i would say is that the firstly if you're on other platforms is to think about well why am i on this platform is it to um is it for me to be seen as the as the person you know and have as many followers and likes and things as possible and to put across all about my life or is it actually to to reflect who jesus is And I think that is an example where people should be on social media. And if you have lots of followers who actually being pointed to to Jesus, that's absolutely wonderful.
00:05:54
Speaker
But I think for some people, they want to get away from from social media as it is at the moment. You know, it really can be extremely distracting. The algorithms will put lots of advertising content your way of things that you yeah you may be interested in. Some of them might be temptations and things as well.
00:06:11
Speaker
And actually, we're finding more and more who are coming on to grow are actually saying, no, I want to break away from from Facebook and Instagram, TikTok and stuff. A, because it's taking up a lot of time, but also because I want to actually take my faith seriously.
00:06:25
Speaker
And sometimes it is that sense of just cutting it out of your life. So I do think there's, you know, i' I'm in both camps, if you if if you can see that way, you know.
Ensuring Safety and Privacy on Grow Faith
00:06:34
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, that's interesting you say that because one of the things I was reflecting on is that obviously there are value judgment calls, presumably, in how you set up any ah social media platform. you know Who gets to see what you say?
00:06:48
Speaker
How do you follow others? Do you moderate content? ah you know Do you engage with people? And so I suppose that begs the question of, you know, to what degree you set it up with Christian principles in mind, given that I suppose a lot of platforms are simply about trying to keep you on it as much as possible. And as you say, monetize things like selling you and, you know, putting adverts towards you, et cetera.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yes, I think we when we set up Grow, um we did talk with our our leadership of our church, our wider leadership, just to get their views on what they felt um you know this this could look like. And they were obviously very concerned about the whole privacy, security side of things. So we spent a lot of time making sure we really make Grow a truly safe place.
00:07:31
Speaker
um I was talking to a group of youth leaders just today because obviously you know they they are concerned about... ah their own teenagers in in their groups and things. And, you know, the the fact that teenagers and and young adults are spending about six or seven hours on on screens, you know, mobile screens, doing social media, gaming, etc.
00:07:50
Speaker
It does beg the question, you know, is that is that good? Is that good for your faith? Probably not. So when we were setting up Grow, we wanted to make sure we had you know the principles were very, very clearly outlined. you know Every single post and comment and devotional that goes through Grow you know goes through a profanity filter.
00:08:09
Speaker
we We have moderators who are ah ah working on um the the app 24-7 who are um have content on there that they are checking regularly.
00:08:21
Speaker
um We have lots of reporting systems as well on there, including po pornography um you know filters in place there. About 250,000 websites are banned as well, so you can't link to anything that's more fake news or or gambling or pornography and things like that. So we've really tried hard to make it an extremely safe place for Christians to come on so they're not finding it a place that is going to actually set them back in their faith.
00:08:47
Speaker
Excellent. Yeah, I can see why that would be really important and to put those in place.
Reflecting Jesus' Love Online
00:08:53
Speaker
I suppose some might say that even if you base a social media platform around Christian principles,
00:09:01
Speaker
What would you say to those who might have a dim view of social media in general, sort of saying it's damaging relationships, it's it's rewiring how we think, we can't focus anymore.
00:09:13
Speaker
ah Do you have any suggestions for how we should engage in a healthy way with social media? Absolutely. i mean, I think the first thing, as I was sort of alluding earlier on, is actually, I think it's all about um pointing people to Jesus, you know, really shining for Jesus.
00:09:30
Speaker
And I think that every comment, post or message, you know, you put onto social media of any kind is a chance to reflect the love of Jesus and really for that to shine through. know, Jesus calls us to love our neighbour. And I think it's it's seeing social media as being your neighbourhood in the digital world.
00:09:48
Speaker
in a way, just like you'd want to be you know friendly and respectful to your neighbours. you know So it's a way of doing that online as well. um you know You have the the possibility with your online presence and the power to make a really positive difference in other people's lives and those people you connect with.
00:10:06
Speaker
So I think it's it's about demonstrating Jesus's love, his acceptance, his understanding. you know You can share obviously inspirational verses, you can share encouraging stories, your testimony, messages of hope and things like that. um You can offer support to people as well. i mean, one thing that's good about Grow is that people come on and they're often in a really tough place. you know, they may be suffering with addictions or with um with with challenging lives. They just need someone to lift them up and encourage them and and pray for them. Now, you can't always do that on every platform, but at least as Christians, we can get alongside people and say, yes, we will we will give you that little bit of hope that's there.
Resources for Sharing Faith
00:10:45
Speaker
that's there Hi, it's Gavin from Solas here. I hope you don't mind if I just interrupt this program for a couple of seconds to tell you that on the Solas website, there's loads more information about sharing your faith, very much in tune with the sort of thing that you'll hear on the Pep Talk podcast.
00:11:01
Speaker
There's articles, there's videos, there's other podcasts, there's any number of resources on there to help you address difficult questions, share your faith at work or with neighbors or friends. is a wealth to explore. Come over and have a look at solas-cpc.org and see what you can find.
00:11:19
Speaker
And now, back to the program.
Grow Faith as a Community Platform
00:11:22
Speaker
Some might say, it's a Christian platform, therefore, are you just preaching to the choir? But I suppose that's an interesting point. To what degree is it evangelistic? As you say, everything we say reaches others and impacts others.
00:11:35
Speaker
um But ah is is it purely a discipleship platform or are there is there actually scope for doing evangelism whilst being on the platform? Yes, I think it's both really. I mean, I think primarily, you know, as our our name of our organisation suggests, it's Grow Faith.
00:11:51
Speaker
But for some people, their their journey of faith has has not yet reached Christianity. So we get people coming on who are, you know, I i am Muslim, they say. you know, I'm wanting to understand more about Christianity.
00:12:04
Speaker
Or they may be someone who is, we get lots of young people who are ah thinking, you know, I'm interested in, I'm curious about what, you know, who you're about. And rather than just going into a ah physical church, and maybe that's quite a big step for them, they might come on to, you know, to grow and actually want to just experience and ask a few questions, you know, and in a polite way and to get some responses from Christians about, you know, who is Jesus or what what about this for my life? I've got this big concern, you know, what can you help me sort of thing. So we do get people from all different backgrounds. Obviously, you get people who are much more experienced in faith, but they often are very good at
00:12:39
Speaker
maybe being a spiritual parent to others on the on the app. So there's a real range of people there. We've got people on the app from, you know, Orthodox to Catholic to Anglican to, you know, Pentecostal, completely free church or no church. You know, it's a real range of of God's church is his on grow and it's quite refreshing sometimes. And when you get new people coming into that, they're experiencing a bit of what God's church is like throughout the nations, I would say.
00:13:07
Speaker
Thanks. Yes, that's a ah good reminder, isn't it? That just because someone identifies as a Christian, of course, that could mean all kinds of different things, depending on the person. And as you said, lots of people do go through a lot of difficult times in their lives. And as you say, there's an opportunity to reach people at at those points where they might be really struggling.
00:13:29
Speaker
Do you have any examples of people actually coming to faith through the platform? Yes, um there's probably two examples I can think of straight away. One was um a guy who came on the app and he he said, you know, ah want to become a Christian, but I need some help. I've got some questions and I want to, um you know, to get some answers. So he he would sort of each day put up something different on the app and say,
00:13:54
Speaker
you know help me with with this question I've got. you know um And obviously there'll be a discussion. you know The way Grow works is that you you post something and then people can comment on it and you can just keep a conversation going in a very transparent way.
00:14:07
Speaker
um And he came on the app um again, you know probably about two weeks later. and said he'd finally made a declaration of faith. He'd gone and actually spoke to a local church and a pastor and and made the commitment there. So i thought that was great. yeah He'd used Grow as ah as a way of answering some questions to reaffirm what does he believe or what doesn't he believe.
00:14:27
Speaker
And then he used the local context to get into a church and to actually have pastor to disciple him. And another good example we had was a young lady who was 17 and going through a really traumatic time of, you know, she was very, very suicidal. It was it was quite serious a lot of the time with, you know, how much could we share on on the platform with what what her posts were. But we decided to, you know, allow a lot of her posts through because we just thought this is a cry for help, you know, and the community really got alongside her and were lifting her up, encouraging her, praying for her,
00:14:59
Speaker
supporting her. And at times she would then disappear for, you know, maybe a few months at a time or so, then she'd come back on again. And we're now three years on from that. She came, was one of our our earlier users.
00:15:11
Speaker
And she's now said she's come through all that. she's She's gone through all that darkness and now into a completely new space in her life. But she was, I think, pleased that God had brought her through that and and used Grow as a platform to help her because now she can be useful to many others who are going through that same situation. So that was just a good example of how you know people are using the app to help them in their their faith and in their journey.
00:15:36
Speaker
Brilliant. Yeah, thank you. That's a lovely, lovely example. ah you i mean, you've you've mentioned, obviously, that that that it can be evangelistic. I suppose, what would you say to someone who's feeling, actually, I would like to be evangelistic online, but um i I feel quite awkward about it.
00:15:53
Speaker
I mean, would it be just the case, as you said earlier, it's just simply about being yourself and and reflecting Christ's values? Or are there things that we could do that just help us say a little bit more about ah Christ than we might naturally feel is that we would do otherwise.
00:16:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's partly about, you know, I think we we can be ambassadors for Christ. And I think it's, you know, it's one of the things that social media is often is criticized for is that people aren't authentic.
00:16:23
Speaker
So I think sometimes when you can be really authentic in the digital world, it shines, it really does come across very, very well. um And it's not always it's easy, because sometimes you you know you you want to put across maybe something a little bit more idealised than maybe the the truth would be. But I think it's important as as Christians that you can share your experiences, your struggles, um allow others to see your journey, both the triumphs and the the challenges. because i think that's quite important that people see the full you, not just the happy I'm a Christian, but also, no, I've been through this illness, I've been through this um this redundancy or this family issue.
00:17:01
Speaker
And I think people are really drawn drawn to authenticity and and vulnerability. And that can really inspire other people who may be going through those trials.
Being a Beacon of Light Online
00:17:10
Speaker
And sometimes it's not necessarily because of it being digital. It's partly you know people who follow you or or maybe have been friends with you in the past. But also it can be others who may be complete strangers who come across your content. And it can be extremely valuable for them too.
00:17:26
Speaker
Thank you. one One thing that really struck me is looking at the platform is actually how positive it is, especially having come from obviously other social media platforms, which can be a lot more antagonistic or or deliberately provocative as well and it for all kinds of obviously reasons and with all kinds of different people putting it on.
00:17:46
Speaker
and i suppose I like your point about authenticity and had that as that being really, really important. What what what do advice do you have for people saying in terms of that positive message of hope? Because as you say, ah people do go through very difficult situations, but actually the Christian message is one of hope. And i think I was thinking in this day and age, we get so much in our news feeds that is negative and And, and, and sort of designed to perhaps provoke us.
00:18:16
Speaker
um So I was wondering if you had any advice for Christians in terms of how we can give more of a positive message in a world that is often ah deliberately sort of emphasizing the negative and um trying to get, get, get a reaction really. Yeah.
00:18:30
Speaker
Yeah, probably a couple of things. um Firstly, I think, you know as as Jesus says in in in Matthew 5, 16, in the same way, let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so everyone will praise your heavenly Father.
00:18:44
Speaker
And I think the online world, yeah we we quite often find can be extremely divisive, negative, and quite anonymous actually. But as Christians, I think we really do have that responsibility to to be you know the beacons of light.
00:18:57
Speaker
you know We can be kind, we can be empathetic, we can be honest in what we do. um And and i think it's also important to avoid judgmentalism as well, because I think, you know, I know there are some Christians on social media who really do not give Christianity a good name because they are there, you know, really putting such a strong view across of Christianity.
00:19:18
Speaker
black and white on something and it actually comes across as being really judgmental and i think even jesus wouldn't say you know any of the things that they would have said are he would have come with love and i think that's something we have to be really careful because we were called to be salt and light in the world and i think secondly there's also as paul says to the philippians in in 4 8 you know you it's about fixing those our eyes on things that and thoughts on and what is true and honorable and right and pure lovely and admirable Because I think otherwise it's very easy to go down the the rabbit warren of what the world wants you to see.
00:19:52
Speaker
And actually, we have to think about what are we allowing our eyes to see? Because it will have a direct impact on on our thoughts and our emotions and then ultimately our
Impact of Social Media on Personal Growth
00:20:01
Speaker
actions. So I think it's important that we are very careful about getting involved in anything that's that's negative or conflict or harmful,
00:20:09
Speaker
um because it will take a toll on your mental and emotional well-being. And i think that's what we find a lot of young people who you know who are on social media, they are in a troubled state from a mental health perspective because they are feeding themselves with often very difficult content. So I think it's um it's important to be uplifting and and and follow stuff that is positive and also share positive stuff as well, because I think that will help other people to lift their moods too.
00:20:36
Speaker
That's a good point, isn't it, about how culture is shaping us. I remember one of my major realizations as I became an adult is that I always thought that I was fairly robust and I wasn't being influenced by the wider culture. and Then I actually later reflected and realized, yes, actually, I was being shaped by all kinds of things.
00:20:54
Speaker
and and I think that's probably even more stark in today's age. We've got our smartphones and they're literally being bombarded by different messages from people or organisations with all kinds of vested interests.
00:21:08
Speaker
Your point about how we communicate was another ah one that struck a chord with me because at Solas we've been discussing about how we communicate well in a much more polarised society, um both what we say and how we say it. um I always remember the Christian speaker, Oz Guinness, who once said something like,
00:21:27
Speaker
If you speak truth without love, then you will lose. And his point was, obviously, you can say ah you can preach God's message, but if you do in a very unloving way that doesn't reflect God's love, then you won't ah generally win people over. And that always struck a chord ah with me.
00:21:46
Speaker
um I suppose you've been saying quite a bit about technology and how we use
Creative and Wise Use of Technology
00:21:51
Speaker
it. and what What encouragement or advice would you have for someone who wants to sort of creatively engage with technology?
00:21:59
Speaker
um I mean, I think technology is going That's such a fast rate, um ah more than more than ever, I think, at the moment. I mean, I i was at a conference last week with Christian Vision.
00:22:10
Speaker
They had a digital day and it was lovely to see 400 Christians in the room who are all interested in where technology is going. And it is going extremely fast and it is quite worrying in a way because um obviously artificial intelligence is the big thing at the moment. And and that's already moved quite considerably um in terms of its development. And it's only going to get even more developed where AI will start to you know, potentially take control of more decision making and more things going on. And when you link that with robots as well, which is also the technology is increasing incredibly fast, you know, the the the world is changing. so I think as Christians, we've almost got to...
00:22:50
Speaker
you know, step back and just see what is it that God wants me to do. So I think it's actually reading his word and and asking the Holy Spirit, what what should I do in this situation?
00:23:00
Speaker
You know, how should I use this technology? Because because the technology can be highly beneficial. You know, we all use AI in in in the workplace now and it can be incredibly fast to you know, develop things quickly. i can see for our own situation with using Grow, um AI will be incredibly important for us getting faster in development things. So, but I think it's being, it's having that discernment, I would say, that um as what technology should we take on and what should we perhaps not do, because it's actually going to be too worldly in terms of um it's its outcomes.
00:23:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's an interesting point. I was actually going to ask you whether you were vaguely optimistic or pessimistic about the future. i suppose one one concern, isn't it, with the way things are going is whether we can discern truth and also just the sort of bombardment of of messaging, whether as in affecting how we can think. So, I mean, are you largely positive or are you urging everyone just to obviously be cautious and careful as Christians about what what we do and don't embrace?
00:24:01
Speaker
i mean i think I think there is an element of caution there because I think we have to because I think we we obviously are trying to, we're often coming up against worldly culture that we need to be different. But I think it's probably using technology in ah in a smart way.
00:24:15
Speaker
um i think also we have to be quite careful because where I think AI is getting very good at doing, it's making reality seem ah different perhaps to what it is at times. so I think as Christians, we do have to be quite careful. So whether...
00:24:31
Speaker
when we share things on social media, share information or we're sharing news articles, videos or memes, we just need to be careful. You know, is this authentic or is it something that actually is going to be misleading? because I think there's nothing worse than Christians actually pushing something that is not um it not accurate or not not helpful. So I think there's that learning that we have to be
Promoting Peace and Authenticity in Digital Spaces
00:24:52
Speaker
as well. And, um you know, I think we have also the role, I think, of being digital peacemakers as well, because we can be responsible digital citizens and also how we share content in a way that's not going to cause conflict or or disharmony. you know
00:25:07
Speaker
Well, that's been in the news recently, hasn't it, with the BBC, the way a Donald Trump ah speech was portrayed. And I was thinking that I've come across quite a few that are actually AI people, of famous people saying they've become Christians, which of course have actually just been doctored by AI. So I suppose...
00:25:23
Speaker
A final point would be just thinking about social media and those who don't use it much. and What advice would you give to someone about engaging more with with the people who are in the digital world? and Also, are you would you recommend sort of Christians trying to engage with people ah in terms of getting them off screens into sort of deeper relationships, et cetera, for those who perhaps themselves are not in this sort of world as much?
00:25:51
Speaker
Yes, I think there's you know that often comes up in in Christian circles. There are those who very much see that actually we should be spending less time on on phones and more time with God and and with the Bible.
00:26:03
Speaker
I think certainly from younger generations, obviously they were brought up with using you know mobile phones and the internet. That's their life. So it's quite hard for them maybe to make that transition. But I think certainly it's using technology in a very positive way and I think utilising your time effectively. So not getting involved in you know, or putting some parameters about how how much time you use.
00:26:24
Speaker
But I think also I would say that certainly with what we're doing on Grow, and and obviously there are lots of other platforms that, you know, the Bible is so accessible digitally now, and you've got so many, you know, commentaries, podcasts, um videos, um devotionals that ah are available to you that actually I think it does't it does give you a much better greater realm of possibilities of how you want to to share
Accessing Grow Faith Platform
00:26:47
Speaker
your faith. So I do think that you know if you are into technology, then then embrace it in a very you know smart way.
00:26:54
Speaker
Fantastic. Thank you. And ah where can we find out ah more about GrowFaith? I should say that actually Solas has GrowFaith profile, so do check us out on there. and But where where can we find out? how How do we get hold of the app if we're interested in seeing more?
00:27:08
Speaker
The easiest way is actually to go to our website. So it's growfaith.co, C-O, a ceo and you'll find all the links you need there to go to Apple or to Android.
00:27:19
Speaker
And it gives you more of the background of who we are as ah as an organization and what we're about as well. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much just for sharing all of that. I'm sorry if you've only sort of started to scratch the surface of so many ah important debates, which has got me thinking about many, many different things. and I was reflecting that I think all of us have this sort of, it's it's almost a human ah nature thing that we sort of love and and want to embrace technology, but then a part of us ah can be worried about the sort of speed of change. and Like you said, actually, sometimes we don't always get necessarily the time to sort of reflect on what's right because everything is moving ah so quickly.
00:27:56
Speaker
i think Obviously, what we do know is obviously Jesus was reaching people where they were. And obviously that's what this discussion is all about. and And I suppose like you said, technology both expands our horizons in one sense, because it means we can reach many more people, but also it can ah can decrease it in another sense if it's at the cost of sort of ah deeper personal relationships in in the real world, inverted commas.
00:28:20
Speaker
And I guess it's all about getting that that balance right, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. So thank you so much. I really hope this episode has been encouraging and inspiring for you listening.
00:28:31
Speaker
and It would actually be amazing, actually, if if someone comes up with a new idea for using technology as a result of this conversation. So we definitely encourage you to think about how ah you use technology well.
00:28:42
Speaker
We'll actually be featuring someone who's working in animation online in the next pep talk so I won't give too much away but that's another example of someone creatively ah looking at how they can speak into a secular space um so do look out for that and thank you all again for listening and please do join us again in a couple of weeks as we feature another inspiring guest sharing about how they reach others for Christ thank you for listening to the pep talk