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Music For Mission (with Greg de Blieck)
3 Playsin 18 hours
Have you ever wondered why music moves us? It transcends culture, yet is an important part of most cultures. Today on PEP Talk, we reflect on how the gift of music speaks to us about God's character. That makes it an excellent medium for communicating God's truth not only within the church, but also with the culture around us.
Greg de Blieck is a Glasgow-based musician and hymn writer. He serves as a Worship Leader at his local church and is involved with the New Scottish Hymns music ministry.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Music is God's gift to carry truth deeper into your soul.
00:00:14
Speaker
Well, welcome to another episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas. Today we're exploring the place of music within evangelism. And I hope that's a topic that will interest many of you because I suspect many people really like some form of music, even if they might disagree over the type or perhaps even what even constitutes music in the first place.
00:00:37
Speaker
I'm Simon Wenham, your co-host today, and I'm pleased to be joined by my other co-host and colleague Gavin Matthews. Gavin, welcome to the show. um As we're we're talking about music, I wondered if perhaps you could share whether you yourself have any kind of virtuoso musical talent?
00:00:52
Speaker
Actually, you know Simon, that's something of a sore point because I'm the only non-musician in my family. My wife's keyboard player, singer, worship leader. My daughter plays keys. Both my sons play guitar. One of them plays drums as well. One of them's a really good singer. And I'm i'm fit to be their roadie at best, I think. So occasionally I'm asked to lug various bits of drum kits and amps around, and that's the limit of my abilities. I have to confess to occasionally hitting my son's drum kit when nobody else is in the house and definitely not in church or any other public context because I might qualify as the world's worst drummer. What about you, Simon? Have you got any musical skills that we don't know about? Well, yeah, it does sound like our musical credentials could be a little better. I i consider myself a sort of failed trumpeter. I think I peaked at the age of 13. But actually, I do love my music and I listen to a lot. And I'm one of these people that will whistle tunes around the house, much to the annoyance of everyone else. So I i do like music. But yeah, I'm i'm similar to you. i I no longer have any sort of strong links, even though I do enjoy it.
Meet Greg de Bleek
00:01:50
Speaker
But ah fortunately, to help us navigate the topic today, we have a professional hymn writer with us, and he is Greg de Bleek, who is involved with the New Scottish Hymns Ministry.
00:02:00
Speaker
Greg, thank you so much for being with us today. i wondered if perhaps you could start us off by just saying a little bit about your background and how you became involved with communicating the Christian faith in this particular way.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yes, well, thank you for having me. I have been a musician here in Glasgow ah and I've been working in the music industry such is it as it is for the last 26 years. i studied music and i love writing hymns. I am a worship leader at my own church and I play in a variety of bands, but the New Scottish Hymns Music Ministry is primarily about communicating scriptural truth in a way that encourages Christians and communicates a the glory of God so that other people can feel it as well as as I feel it, as I read it and as I engage with it.
00:02:56
Speaker
And what instruments do you play? yeah Do you do production as well as playing? What what are your instruments? Do you sing? What's your thing? Yes, so I sing and play guitar in the hymns band. I also play drums to a reasonable standard. It's very important. And I've dabbled with other instruments as well, piano and cello, and I've got a baran up there as well, you know, the kind of Scottish hand drum, which I quite enjoy. Although I don't think, if if you were...
00:03:25
Speaker
A professional musician, you were saying, I need a session player for any of these instruments. My name is not the the name that would come first and foremost to your mind, but I'm ah i'm a dabbler in some, and some I can play reasonably well in front of other people.
00:03:40
Speaker
What is it, do you think, about music that enables us to really connect with with other people? what does What's the power of music? Why does that grip us and move us in and such a profound way? Why has God given us music?
00:03:53
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Yeah, well, I think... Music is really profound because it reflects something of God's character and God's values.
00:04:05
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When we listen to music, we are affirming that something is true and something is good. Fundamentally, there is a beauty in music that comes from order.
00:04:21
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And it comes from harmony. and It comes from patterns. And if you if you look at the first book of the Bible and you look at the creation narrative there, are when God is being creative and creating things that he says are good, he is dividing this from that and he is deciding that this will go there and that will go there.
00:04:43
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So he is laying out his decision-making process in time and space and And music as reflects that same kind of creative impulse. And he has given that to us so that we can see when that note harmonizes with that note, it is a good thing. It's a beautiful thing. And that is what God is trying to reveal to us, the ultimate good and the ultimate truth, which is
The Theology of Music
00:05:10
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God himself. So music, yeah, I think is thinking God's thoughts after him in a sense.
00:05:18
Speaker
Thank you. That's a lovely way of putting it. do you i mean You said obviously God gives us creativity. So what what is your motivation? Is it simply that or are you trying to sort of communicate God's glory, as you said?
00:05:32
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Well, I have a theology of music. which is centered around the idea of communication. And I think it's really helpful to think about it in these terms, thinking about who God is, what God does and why God does it.
00:05:50
Speaker
And then thinking about who we are, what we should be doing and why we should, we should be doing it. And I think that God, in essence is triune he exists as a perfect community ah you know or he is the a the the concept of community springs from who god is you know rather than you know that is a way of defining god you know he defines what community is but he is a ah community in that sense father son and spirit
00:06:24
Speaker
And his activity, what God does is God communicates constantly when he is, when God speaks, things happen, things burst into being and existence. And the whole of the universe is are communication over time and space of God's glory, his goodness, what is ultimately good and ultimately true.
00:06:51
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And God's purpose in doing that and creating things. God existed in perfect a community and within a state of perfect communion ah and and always does. But he has created this universe to involve other people in that communion. So we are we have been created for communion with God. So that is his purpose. And then if you start thinking about ourselves,
00:07:21
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you know, realizing that we are created for community, you know, it's not good for man to be alone. For example, we're created in the image of God in that sense.
00:07:33
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Our activity then is about communicating. So everything that we do in our lives, all the decisions that we make, the things that we see, the things that we don't see, and The choices that we make, they reveal what we believe to be of most value, what we believe to be good and worthy of supporting and affirming.
00:07:55
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And so we are always communicating. And what we are designed for is perfect communion, communion with God, communion with one another. And of course, sin has entered into that equation and broken that so that we have this, our communities are are being broken and our communication is has fallen apart.
00:08:18
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our communication has fallen and our communion with one another and with God is also broken.
Music's Role in Evangelism
00:08:24
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So I believe that, and communication as the means by which we are able to get back to God. Hmm.
00:08:35
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but When we come together as Christians in church, we we sing to God and to one another. I think that's the the two emphases in scripture. you know Some of the Psalms are addressed directly to God, oh Lord, how majestic is your name. And then in the New Testament, Paul says, as you speak to one another in Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, you're singing one another to encourage each other. And we're very familiar with that of coming together to sing to one another, to enrich one another, and to worship God directly.
00:08:59
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But do you think this communication, music has a role of communicating the truth of the gospel outside the church into the wider world. Are people listening? Will people engage with the truth of scripture and the gospel and Jesus through music and through lyrics? What's the role of music in our job of communicating the gospel, not to one another, but to those outside the church?
00:09:21
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Yes, I believe music has a really valuable role in evangelism and communicating God's glory because when people hear things in music, there are barriers that they the are lowered when they hear things in music because music kind of affirms something which people naturally ah appreciate and naturally regard as good and true. And when you can, it's like if somebody is telling you a hard truth about something that you need to do to change your life, if they are doing it in a way that communicates
00:10:04
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that their motivation is love for you and and care for you then that is a kind of mode that they have chosen to communicate and music is just another mode music is a way of expressing an idea so that it can be felt in honesty um and i think it's really valuable that way um i think Do you know, it's interesting as an example of this, right? but Before we were were chatting, I was looking at the the halftime show at the Super Bowl and I was looking, you know, there was that alternative thing, the Turning Point USA and they had this, you know, Kid Rock, this artist who has been a bit of ah a hellraiser, you know, in the past. But there's him standing up singing a kind of country and Western song
00:10:55
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which a has a verse in it about ah you know, there's a Bible in your house and you need to go and read it and you need to get right with Jesus before it's too late.
00:11:07
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You know, and there's this verse in this song that's going out to, you know, millions of people who are watching this and they're hearing that being affirmed. And, you know, that kind of thing is really powerful when it's expressed in a musical setting. I just think and that's really valuable.
00:11:26
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, that that's obviously on a ah grand scale with millions millions watching. and Obviously, we don't assume that it's only Christians who are in churches, but do you do you have any sense of whether your own music transcends the four walls of the church?
00:11:42
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Do you know, that's
Cultural Resonance in Music
00:11:43
Speaker
ah interesting. i Most of the feedback that I get from people is from Christians. I don't receive a lot of feedback from people who are not Christians. i And I think probably the reason for that is the music that I a create has very specifically Christian and scriptural a texts. And I think people engage with the words that
00:12:14
Speaker
at a very kind of fundamental level such that if they don't feel that they are personally being represented in the words, they might find it quite challenging to understand or appreciate. So I i believe that there is probably a ah barrier there are such that am I've not found that the so the particular songs that I've written are necessarily ones that are making sense to people who are not Christians. And it's a good question to ask. And I you know i think that there is definitely a place for people to use music specifically a and much more of an evangelistic way but my my approach has largely just been to affirm what what the bible says and a paint pictures from my own perspective so that when people um come across it they can wrestle with that however they want you know and you're doing that in a very scottish flavored way not just i suppose in the lyrics but also ah scottish musical inflections come through very clearly in a lot of new new scottish stuff that seems to be a really important thing to me as well because you know, up here, if we're trying to reach Scotland for Christ, it's important that the culture that we inhabit is the culture of Scotland. I've got a friend who many years ago was sent by a mission agency to West Africa because the the Christians there, as the church started to grow, were singing Victorian English hymns. It was kind of incongruous. And just as the people needed the Bible in their own heart language, so they needed to be able to sing in their own heart language. And part of that was lyrics, but it was also music. why Is that an important thing for you, writing in a very Scottish way? so that the church here can respond?
00:14:00
Speaker
Yes, well, there are there are certain characteristics of the music that I write that are deeply embedded in Scottish folk music tradition. And I actually think that a lot of the hymnody of the last 300, 400 years is also reflecting that a traditional a kind of folk idiom.
00:14:22
Speaker
But I do think that and using the style of music that people are conversant with as very important for carrying the truth and to their soul. You know, I think, you know, there's, there's space for people even using things like, you know, heavy metal, uh, to communicate gospel truth to, to the metal heads out there. And, you know, hip hop or trap or whatever, you know, EDM, all of these things can be used to carry the most valuable message of all. And I think, you know, there are certain cultures that are just going to be.
00:15:03
Speaker
more receptive to certain styles of music. So I think we need more and more variety. in And there, when it comes to actually writing for the church, I think there are certain constraints that have to be applied such. And I think folk music is very good for that because folk music has a very broad appeal And the kind of emphasis on singable melodies falls falls in line with the the need of congregations to be able to lock in with a song and older generations, younger generations. I think folk music tends to transcend that. a little bit so yeah i think there are there are unique languages within music and we want to find a more universal language uh you know to some to some extent without completely crowding out the the cultural nuances yeah
00:16:01
Speaker
Hi there, it's Gavin from Solas here, just very briefly interrupting today's podcast to remind you that Solas' book, Have You Ever Wondered?, is now available. It's an ideal gift to give to people who aren't Christians, but people who are thinking through the big issues of life, beauty, justice, identity, love, stories, nature, hope, things which intrigue us, move us, and prompt us to ask big questions, but ultimately point towards the Christian faith. It's a pre-evanjistic book, and it's proven to be really helpful in developing good conversations with people in our world today about Jesus. If you'd like to find out more, come over to the SOLAS website, solas-cpc.org, where you can find out more, or look online in your usual bookseller or on the high street. And now, back to the program.
00:16:44
Speaker
one One aspect I thought was quite interesting with your work is that you you have devotionals actually on your website sort of explaining some of the theology behind the hymns. And I thought that was very striking because I think sometimes the cliche is the old fashioned hymns have much richer lyrics and they're kind of self-explanatory. Some of the modern ones perhaps have lighter lyrics, which are a bit more surface level. But you have things like, you know, death may approach, I shall not flee. And then and then you have devotional around that. Can you say a little bit about why you've chosen to do that?
Music in Worship and Spiritual Growth
00:17:15
Speaker
Yes, well, i I love talking about my songs as well. And it's one of the things the guys in the band have said to me, you know, sometimes it's all right just to play the song, you know, and let it speak for itself.
00:17:29
Speaker
i am I love a being as clear as I possibly can, but I think that there is a role of role for using poetry in your lyrics as well so that, you know, there is a power in rhetoric and the the way in which words are laid out him just makes peace makes them a have more impact. I think that's something that I'm always working towards, but I always want to give people
00:18:04
Speaker
am something else to think about. I think, you know, when we sing in church, for example, you can sing a hymn that's a great hymn and you can sing it without thinking about it from start to finish. You can have all these great truths, but because you know it, you're just kind of enjoying singing the music without actually engaging with the words. So I think it's always good to try and get people to ensure that the brain stays active, even as the heart is is enjoying the the subconscious beauty of the music, you know.
00:18:39
Speaker
we're thinking earlier about the role of music in evangelism. I think historically the way that, you know, John Wesley had Charles Wesley write the songs, Moody had Sankey, and Billy Graham had, was it George Beverly Shea coming out singing the gospel to the crowd before ah Billy Graham would come and communicate it. But thinking about our role as ordinary Christians wanting to be evangelists, what do you think the role of music and musical worship is in firing the church up and focusing us and mobilizing the church to go out and evangelize. What's the role of music worship in building the church up to be effective in, I suppose, all the areas that we work in of which evangelism is absolutely one. there are other things the church has to do, but what's what's music's job? What's music's role when we're worshiping God well with music in building us up to send us out
00:19:28
Speaker
Well, so music, I think, really helps the truth to go from the head to the heart. I think that really is one of its fundamental roles.
00:19:42
Speaker
I think it has a role in helping us to... understand that we are not alone when we stand up and we affirm things ah together with other Christians, it strengthens our resolve to respond and be transformed and allow the truth to transform us.
00:20:07
Speaker
And, you know, at the start when you mentioned that we use music to sing to God and we use music to sing to one another, that's that's true.
00:20:17
Speaker
We also use music to sing to ourselves because there are so many truths that we know inverted commas, but we don't necessarily have them at the front of our mind. We don't fully appreciate them because truths, you know, have, you know, values and there is a kind of value ah structure there. And you want to know what, what is the most important thing? What is the thing that I should be doing first as a matter of first importance and music helps us to feel the importance of the truths that we're singing.
00:20:58
Speaker
as well So I think that's one of the key values as we kind of go out from being gathered together and we go into our daily lives.
Music as a Communication Continuum
00:21:06
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and And that's an interesting point because some people might see um music as being in a separate category from evangelism. You might see that as being more to do with discipleship. I wondered if you could talk about the relationship between music, discipleship and evangelism.
00:21:23
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Yeah, well, i I tend to regard evangelism and discipleship as a continuum rather than a a binary thing. You know, i think it is all a continuum of communicating the truth about God's glory.
00:21:40
Speaker
to move us from a place that is separated from God and distant from God to a place of ultimate communion with God. So I believe communication is the means by which that happens, that is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the active force in using the communication of God and ah the the the Word of God, exalting Christ as as the apex of God's communication.
00:22:15
Speaker
that is the the process that we are on. So if we are communicating, music is a tool for communication. We should use it for that as its a highest possible purpose. Music is, you know, music is used for all kinds of things. It's used to,
00:22:33
Speaker
to, you know, sell cars. Music is is used for hold music for, you know, when you're trying to pay your taxes to the HMRC. It's used for all kinds of things, but it has a highest purpose. And I think it's really helpful for musicians, particularly Christians, to think about how we can use that to communicate the highest and most valuable and most precious truths.
00:23:02
Speaker
We've got to time for probably one more or two questions, but here's a strange one for you. How do you gauge success in your work? I think of someone in social ministry. They can say, I fed somebody today. Someone who's an evangelist can say, I saw someone come to Christ today.
00:23:14
Speaker
What looks like a good day for you as a Christian hymn writer and songwriter? What would you come out? That was a great day. What does that look like for you? Well, for me, primarily, it's about the the royalty checks.
00:23:26
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Yeah.
00:23:30
Speaker
So yeah, I don't have very, very good days in that respect. no m For me, i would say a good day, I love receiving feedback from people when when they've listened to a song and they just get in touch to say, just to let you know, this this really moved me, this really helped me in a a difficult time or really encouraged me with this truth or that truth. I've had lovely, lovely messages from people on that.
00:23:57
Speaker
front. The strangest things, like people saying oh when I was giving birth to my second child, I had your album playing on a loop in the background and that really helped. you know i I find that helpful.
00:24:11
Speaker
I also... My own songs, I find it's helpful for me just as ah a way of preaching to myself as well. as i Because i I remember my own lyrics because I have to because I'm going to be performing them every so often. And it's handy to just have those lyrics because they're just truths about God that I can just sing to myself and remember and and meditate on. and And we all just need to do that. So that's that's what I find most encouraging.
00:24:42
Speaker
Fantastic. Thank you. One last question. What advice might you have for someone who has a musical gift? you know Where can they start in terms of sort of using their musical talent for Christ? And I know there's lots of different types of music, but do you have any specific advice that we can perhaps inspire anyone that's musical listening to this?
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think I would encourage musicians to think about themselves as communicators. And I would also encourage them.
00:25:15
Speaker
You see the thing about when you're, when you're making music for people, what you're doing is you are laying out something of your own identity because you, music is a list of creative decisions made over time.
00:25:34
Speaker
You know, the, the, the melody goes up at this point and it goes down at this point. That was the decision that I made. I decided to strum the guitar in this way and not that way. You know, that's revealing something about who you are by the decisions that you've made.
00:25:49
Speaker
And one of the temptations with music is to make it all about yourself and people get very invested in that and they stand or fall by how well their music is received because they feel that that is just an extension of themselves. I think it's really useful for anyone who's trying to be a musician and to use their music for the glory of God to distance themselves a little bit from that and realize that really what their goal should be to to do is not communicate themselves and truths about themselves.
00:26:25
Speaker
You know, i personally am, i'm I'm quite boring, but God is not boring. God is amazing. God is wonderful. The gospel is such a wonderful thing to be singing about. So just keep trying to communicate something that is higher than yourself, something that's better than yourself, and it will stop you from getting stuck in your own head and, and worried about whether people think you're good or good enough, you
Conclusion and Preview of Next Episode
00:26:52
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know?
00:26:52
Speaker
if And I think that's a really good note to kind of bring it to a conclusion on because I mean, folks that listen to this podcast do so because they want to be inspired to share the gospel with people that, you know, at work friends and neighbors, colleagues, fellow students. And we need to remind ourselves that first of all, we need to be worshipers, people who come together and seek the glory of God that, you know, see the glory of God in the face of Christ that love him and want to worship him and praise him. and And music is such a wonderful gift for doing that. So let's come together. First of all, as worshipers filled with the spirit of God, who love him, who adore him, want to sing his praise, and then take that message to a world that knows nothing of these things and needs to know desperately. So thank you, Greg, for sharing all that with us. Thank you for joining us, Simon. We will be back in a fortnight with another interesting guest who will inspire us as we seek to share Christ with the world. See you then. Goodbye.