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Playing the Long Game (with Mark Fleming)
2 Playsin 18 hours
Many sporting clubs are the largest social group in any given local community. Do the local churches view them as rivals, or mission fields? Today, more clubs are recognising the competitive benefits of caring emotionally and spiritually for their athletes, opening up huge opportunities for Christian ministry. Here on PEP Talk, sport enthusiasts Gavin Matthews and Simon Wenham learn more about the the area of sports chaplaincy.
Mark Fleming has been chaplain to Partick Thistle Football Club since 1989. He now serves as National Director for Scotland at Sports Chaplaincy UK, where he recruits, trains, and mentors chaplains across the nation. He has provided in-house mental health awareness training at a range of football clubs and sporting governing bodies such as the English Football Association, Scottish Football Association, Scottish Rugby Union and the Camanachd Association. He has written a book on his experiences titled "Confessions of a Football Chaplain" available here.
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Transcript
Introduction to Sports Chaplaincy and Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
Sports Chaplaincy Scotland currently has around 200 chaplains supporting the mental, emotional and spiritual well-being of sports people in a number of settings all over the nation.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hi, I'm Gavin from Solis and this is Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. Welcome back for another interesting episode. As ever, we're talking about sharing the gospel of Jesus in the country today. I'm joined by my co-host, Simon Wenham from the other end of the country. Simon, how are you?
00:00:35
Speaker
Very well, thank you. I'm really looking forward to today's discussion.
Simon Wenham on Sports Ministry and Coaching
00:00:39
Speaker
Now, we're talking about sports ministry today. Simon, you are a sportsman. Now, i I believe that you are currently an injured sportsman who's been resigned to having to be a coach this year. Is that right? Yes. Although the the the injury wasn't why I became a coach. But yes, ah actually, i've I've recently recovered from my injury. so But i I do love my sport and I'll watch almost any type of sport that is on the TV. And I have to be a little careful for that reason.
00:01:01
Speaker
Fantastic. Our
Mark Fleming's Journey into Sports Chaplaincy
00:01:02
Speaker
guest today is Mark Fleming. Now, Mark, ah you you're on the line. I could and see you've joined us. Thank you for joining us today. Now, you're coming to us from the west coast of Scotland, is that right? am indeed, Tom. Speaking to you from sunny Solcoats, just looking out at the island of Arran out my office window.
00:01:18
Speaker
Fantastic. Now, you are the founder of Sports Chaplaincy Scotland. If you could tell us to start with then about what is Sports Chaplaincy Scotland, what you do, but also more importantly, how how you got into it. Why did you found found a sports ministry? Because sometimes sport has an interesting and complicated relationship with the church, doesn't it? Some people see sport as a mission field. Other people see it as a kind of a world of worldliness and temptation to be avoided at all costs. You're clearly right in there. Tell us about why you're there and how it came about.
00:01:48
Speaker
Yeah, well, I have been involved in sports chaplaincy in Scotland for nearly 30 years. um It's interesting you say about how the the church has been conflicted over the years in terms of its attitude towards the world of sport. I remember when I first became a pastor way back in 1988, I went to visit at a retired deacon from the church. i was quite glad he was retired by the end of the conversation. and And he just sat there and he bemoaned what he called the worldliness that was within the church.
00:02:19
Speaker
And he said, I'll tell you how bad things are getting. and he said He said, I saw a deacon from the Baptist Kirk coming out of Love Street football ground last week. How bad is that? He said. And of course at that time St Merton played at Love Street and I said, nah, you wouldn't catch me at St Merton. I said, he said, well, you you wouldn't you wouldn't go and watch football, would you? And I said, well,
00:02:39
Speaker
Not quite. I said, I support Partick Thistle. It's not quite at that level, you know, just trying to banter with him. And he was none too impressed. He said, well, what about all that bad language that you're going to hear? Surely, as a Christian, you shouldn't want to sit in that environment.
00:02:53
Speaker
And I said, well, there's not that many
Reconnecting Churches and Communities through Sports
00:02:55
Speaker
people actually go to Partick Thistle just now, so I'm more likely to hear a dog bark in Maryhill Road than I am to hear anybody swear. And he says, what's more, I'm more likely to see some hear somebody swear in Paisley High Street, you know.
00:03:08
Speaker
and And then he hit me with this. He says, well, how would you feel if you were sitting in that football ground and at half time the Lord Jesus Christ was to appear, to come back and find you sitting there in that den of iniquity?
00:03:22
Speaker
And I said, well, see, to be honest with the way Thessler planned just now, if Jesus were to come back at half time and get me out of there, it would be a blessing. But he he didn't see the funny side of that, obviously. But that, I would say, was very much the prevalent attitude in the evangelical church in Scotland.
00:03:40
Speaker
Very often, if you were to be converted, you'd be encouraged to hang up your football boots or burn your shimpy stick cut yourself off. um And that attitude for me, this idea of burning your bridges with the world became, for me, it became what I would define as COVID Christianity, where you were isolated so you couldn't spread the gospel.
00:04:01
Speaker
um So yeah, I i would say what I do now that I help churches rebuild bridges into their local communities through the appointment of chaplains at Sports Club. And I'll explain more of that as we go through.
00:04:15
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, i I understand that tension as well. So, for
Dehumanization in Football and the Need for Care
00:04:19
Speaker
example, in here, often football is played on a Sunday morning, but, you know, children's football. So I understand the tension. And I know historically certain denominations in particular have been very, very hostile to ah the church engaging with with with pastimes. and I'd love to hear something more about your your motivation. So what is your motivation to share Jesus with sports people specifically or or in that space at least?
00:04:43
Speaker
So, growing up, obviously i was a Partick Thistle supporter and the turning point for me was actually a programme article that I read where one of the players had been asked how he was enjoying his time at Partick Thistle and he basically opened up and said, a lot of I'm really feeling it quite hard just now, you know, performances haven't been great and it was obvious that he was he was struggling and he was suffering as a result of the dehumanisation of the supporters who were calling him for everything.
00:05:12
Speaker
And I remember sitting there thinking, that's what football supporters do. They dehumanise players, managers. They deify them if they're doing well. They demonise them if they're deemed to be doing badly. um Nobody values them as human beings.
00:05:28
Speaker
Who's in there looking after their mental... emotional and spiritual wellbeing, who who's there re-humanising them? um I thought much of the the kind of culture it around, especially professional football, is a ruthless and brutal industry where your value is determined by your performance and your results.
00:05:46
Speaker
And that can oscillate week in, week out. And
Football Chaplaincy During Club Crisis
00:05:49
Speaker
I thought, what what a great idea would it be for Christians to be in the midst of that culture and to model God's grace Because obviously the value God places in us is the blood of his son.
00:06:02
Speaker
And when we accept Christ into our lives as Lord and saviour, then the value that God has placed in us, the love that God has for us, doesn't oscillate, doesn't diminish according to performance and results, but continues right through eternity.
00:06:14
Speaker
How about we got involved in football and gave them a taste of God's grace by how we treat them? So that that was what was going through my mind. But the opportunity to enact that came about when Partick Thistle were going through a really difficult time. The club were facing liquidation. There was a group of supporters saved them. And in the midst of all that, the manager had said to the directors, look, I feel I'm trying to get 11 fit boys in that park on a Saturday to win three points.
00:06:43
Speaker
But I'm that busy focused listening to all their worries and their woes and their problems. I can't focus on the football. Can you get someone else in to deal with that stuff? And cut a long story short, that they brought me in.
00:06:55
Speaker
Didn't have a clue what I was doing, but I was just determined to come in and just model the the compassion of Jesus. Just
Secular Nature of Football Clubs and Church Ties
00:07:02
Speaker
show up, love them, look out for them, listen to them, and just watch what God was doing and join in.
00:07:07
Speaker
That was really all the remit I had going into this. like reactions do you get? I mean, sports companies these days, sports clubs are secular companies, aren't they? I know lot of sports football clubs particularly had a close relationship with the churches in the 1880s and 1890s. But today, they are secular companies owned sometimes by multinationals. What kind of reactions do you get when you say we'd like to offer a chaplaincy service? Did they say in your car? Well, they say, you know, we don't want anything to do with you. What kind of responses do you get when you offer to serve?
00:07:39
Speaker
I think we need to understand the very distinct histories of England and Scotland in this regard, because you're right when you say, certainly in England, many football clubs were started by evangelical churches during the Victorian era, where many people were moving out of rural areas into urban communities. The church was losing touch with them. And so a number of churches hit on the idea, why don't we connect with young men through starting a football club?
00:08:04
Speaker
So clubs like Everton, Tottenham Hotspur, Aston Villa, Manchester City, loads of football clubs were started by the church.
Acceptance of Chaplains in Scottish Football
00:08:11
Speaker
However, when you come north of the border, it's a very, very different story. And there are only two football clubs that were started by a church, in inverted commas. One was Glasgow Celtic and the other was Edinburgh's Hibernian.
00:08:24
Speaker
And you don't need to be a church historian to know it wasn't the proddies. that were involved in this particular venture. So the the Evangelical Protestant Church in Scotland, they had a quite they had a view that football and other sports were a spiritual distraction.
00:08:39
Speaker
So we burned the bridges, but then you add into the mix the sectarian violence between Rangers and Celtic supporters, and actually you would find, generally speaking, that football clubs in Scotland wanted to completely distance themselves from the church.
00:08:53
Speaker
So this was an absolute miracle of God's grace that he opened up the door, as he did for me at Partick Thistle. um And I went in and i said, look, I'm going to be pastorally proactive and spiritually reactive. I won't initiate conversations around spiritual things, but if the questions, the needs, the requests are presented to me, I'm going to answer them from a Christian perspective. And they were cool with that. um So, you know, we're pastorally available for people of all faiths and none. And I didn't have an agenda. I just wanted to go in and just watch what God was doing and and just join in.
00:09:27
Speaker
I never had a blueprint for this. You know, I've just followed the footprint every time God's place went in front of me. And as a result of the work I was doing at Thistle, other clubs began to express an interest in having a chaplain that did what I did.
00:09:41
Speaker
and So
Impact of Chaplaincy on Mental Well-being
00:09:42
Speaker
very gradually, I began to introduce people to clubs, train them up. But the turning point was when the Scottish Football Association started invited me to the AAFA license a coaching course to speak to court did guys that were going to be going into management and explain to them the benefits and basics of chaplaincy and entitled my workshop, More Than Two Legs on a Saturday.
00:10:06
Speaker
And I said to them, and this is really where I'm going to answer your question. I said, if you just view your players as physical commodities, that's what you'll get. But if you realize they've got a mental, emotional and spiritual dimension,
00:10:17
Speaker
and you support them in these areas, you'll get a better player out of that. And I began to get cues of coaches coming up to me and saying, I'll have one of your chaplains. So what I would say in answer to your question is, the world of football is ruthless, it's brutal, and it's very pragmatic.
00:10:34
Speaker
And if they think they'll get a wee advantage in supporting even the spiritual well-being of their players, they'll take it because they're always looking for that wee edge. Thank you. Yeah, that's very good point, isn't it And we live in ah in a world where there is a lot of onus put on just your performance. And as you say, if if you're not feeling well, or there is something else going on, I've been struck by reading a few sports biographies where people explained what was going on in the background. And that explains why they did so badly in a sport at that time. And I had I had no idea what was going on. i used to work with a ah a rugby a player, so he's a professional player. and He said actually a lot of the guys were playing playing through pain. and He said there was a lot of um difficulties amongst the squad because a lot of them were taking painkillers and getting knocked about, yet they were tough lads. and Then you know the feeling was that you couldn't discuss it. um I'd love to hear, do you do you have any stories in particular of it of of sort of people you've helped? Obviously, you don't have to name the specific people, but the sort of examples of how you might help someone and if people have come to faith or at least been helped in their faith through your work.
00:11:39
Speaker
Absolutely. So I think the key thing to say about chaplains is we look past the player and we get to know the person. It's part of that re-humanising of them. So we value them as a human being.
00:11:50
Speaker
Our value of them does not depend on whether they so they play, they score, they win. So that's the first thing to say about that. And that's noticed and and it's appreciated.
00:12:01
Speaker
So
Sports as a Mission Field for the Church
00:12:02
Speaker
we tend to look beyond performance and results in terms of how we value and how we speak to people, etc. So yes, there's been occasions, I can think of one particular player we signed from a club and from a higher level, much was expected of him, and it looked like he was having an absolute mare and wasn't doing very well. I remember being in the manager's office and the manager you know berating himself and for being foolish enough to sign this player and said he's not kicked his backside, if I can say that word, since I've been at the club and he says, I wish I'd never signed him.
00:12:36
Speaker
And I'm sitting there thinking, I wonder if there's a backstory. I wonder if there's something going on in this player's life that's impacting upon his performance. So I just simply got alongside him and said, look, how are you settling in? Are you enjoying life here? And he said, I like the club, Rev, but he said, I'm having a mare in my life. and and i've made it and And then he began to tell me some stuff, mistakes he'd made, and how this had really, really impacted upon, ultimately, his mental well-being.
00:13:05
Speaker
So i said, you know, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea for you to tell the manager about this, to give him a wee bit of insight as to what's going on. and I said, you don't want him to think you're not trying. He says, no, I would, but I'm i'm frightened that he'll kick me out and, you know just drop me like a stone and put me to train with the reserves, as often will happen. And I said, I don't think he will. I said, I'll come in with you if you like, and I'll kind of be a bit of a mediator. So we agreed I would do that.
00:13:32
Speaker
And he confessed to the manager what had been happening. And the manager was brilliant. He said, look, I wish you'd told me that, son. He says, do you need a ah week out to just sort your head out and then try and sort all your your mess out?
00:13:45
Speaker
And he he said, I have appreciate that, Gaffer. and So that that happened. He came back into the squad, ended up playing brilliantly through the rest of the season. We won the league that year too. And it was just one of those situations where there wasn't necessarily any spiritual impact, but being seen as a mediator, as ah as a you know as a peacemaker,
00:14:05
Speaker
but was appreciated and and the club could see that I was there for the for the good of everybody. And yet there are other situations where I would have a number of players who would ask if they could come to my church.
00:14:16
Speaker
We actually used to have an outreach meal in our church. We used to have it in the local hotel and we used to call it food for thought. And the criteria for anybody in our church coming to the meal was they had to bring at least one non-church person.
00:14:31
Speaker
You weren't allowed to come if you were just coming yourself or with your Christian pals. It's not what it's about. um And so I remember mentioning this to the manager and he says, I'd like to come with my wife. What about the players? Could they come? We ended up having the whole squad there.
00:14:46
Speaker
And it was actually one of those very meetings that a club captain at the time gave his heart to Christ and they still follows Jesus to this day. So, but it was, what i found was I didn't initiate these conversations. I didn't try and manipulate or manufacture opportunities.
00:15:03
Speaker
I just went in and I just, join God in what he was doing, you know? But you've got to be in the midst of that to make that happen. And this is really the message I'm trying to get across to churches in this day is that the days of you expecting people to show up, it does happen.
00:15:21
Speaker
Praise God, it is happening. But
Building Bridges into Sports Communities
00:15:23
Speaker
there's a world out there that aren't going to come unless you go to them first. And I'll tell you story to illustrate that later on.
00:15:32
Speaker
Did you know that as well as the Pep Talk podcast, Solas also does live events in person in churches all around the country, equipping and encouraging Christians to get a little bit better at sharing their faith. And we've worked from the south of England to the highlands of the islands of Scotland and all kinds of places in between.
00:15:49
Speaker
If you'd like us to come to your church and do a confident Christianity event, get in touch with us through the website. And now back to the program.
00:15:59
Speaker
And when the church looks out into our world and into our communities, why is sport such a good place to reach into? mean, when you think about sports, it's it's some people's religion. For other people, it's their football clubs, they're idle. um For other people, it's hugely, um well, you know, contentious, isn't it? You you talked about the Glasgow Rangers-Celtic divide is quite hostile, quite partisan. Why is sport such a good mission field for the church to reach out into?
00:16:23
Speaker
For a lot of people, they would speak of their football club, for example, as their spiritual home. And this is their place of connection. It's their family, it's their tribe.
00:16:34
Speaker
um And I would suggest that in every town and village across Scotland, the largest community hub will be the football club, will be the rugby club, the shinty club.
00:16:47
Speaker
Why then, would the church being considerably smaller, why would you look at that as competition and not opportunity? Why would you not want to build a bridge into the larger community hub within your locality?
00:17:01
Speaker
What a difference it makes in terms of building the social footprint of the church, giving the church a degree of credibility, viability. Why wouldn't you want to do it? And I really believe I'm i'm creating opportunities for the church to build bridges into of these communities in an unprecedented way. And
Maintaining Integrity and Respect in Sports
00:17:18
Speaker
the the great thing is that when I first started in all this, and it was quite a job convincing football clubs of the merits of having a chaplain.
00:17:26
Speaker
Nowadays, I've got a queue of clubs looking for chaplains. And now what I'm finding the challenge is convincing the church of the merits of getting outside their comfort zone, outside the four walls of the church, and actually being present as salt of the earth in their sporting communities and just allowing God to work through that.
00:17:46
Speaker
See, when people say to me, I'm too busy with church to be involved in chaplaincy, I think, man, that's those are the first words of a dying church to me. Thank you. i I suppose if people aren't called or or think they're not called to sports chaplaincy, the fact of the matter is, of course, many Christians play sport. And I suppose, do you have any advice for Christian sportsmen or women who, you know, and how they should approach sport in a way that enhances and doesn't detract sports?
00:18:13
Speaker
from their witness. i I say that someone that has has been slightly fiery in some games and growing up I was quite a bad loser, which which which actually fueled me being quite good at sport. But also i I also understood that actually I had to be careful about how I handled myself. and This is in my younger teenage days, which I was a bit more volatile as people often are. But do you have any advice for how Christians should be when they they do sport?
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean the scripture says that we should do everything as unto the Lord and we should be playing for our manager as if we're playing for Jesus himself. So there, out of that should come, you know, great effort, wholeheartedness, not hiding in the park, you know, being honest, being full of integrity. But here's what I'm going to throw in out of left field. I would say the thing that kept me in check was when I was up against an opponent, imagining I was playing against Jesus.
00:19:08
Speaker
Would I foul him? Would I cheat on him? Would I go raging at him? So treating with the same respect and honour as you would treat Jesus. Now, listen, Jesus will take a tackle. Don't don't worry about that, right? But I don't think you'd appreciate your autograph and your shin guard. So I think that whole idea of of treating your opponents with respect, yet playing out your skin for your club, I think that's the balance for Christians.
Christian Players as Informal Chaplains
00:19:32
Speaker
I remember being at McDermott Park with St. Johnson last season and a penalty was given. We thought erroneously in about the the fifth or sixth minute of stoppage time at the end of the game, and there was a distinct absence of the fruit of the spirit. That's all I could say, both on the pitch and in the stands. Yeah.
00:19:50
Speaker
Think about people that you play with in in sports. you know You're often only with them for maybe a training night and a 90-minute match. how How can Christian sports people develop more meaningful relationships that go further into supporting them in their lives and you know being kind of a chaplain really ah to your fellow sportsmen, taking that 90-minute window and and making something more significant? How should Christian sports people do that? That's a great question.
00:20:13
Speaker
I've known a lot of Christian players in the past and, you know, what I would say is that very often as a Christian, sorry, that as a footballer, it's all about you. It's all about you being selected. It's all about you receiving the ball and getting the glory for scoring the goal. It's a very selfish environment where it's really all about you.
00:20:34
Speaker
But when you're perceived by your teammates as actually being for them, and actually when there's a better option to square a ball for your teammate to score, you do that. You know, rather than bigging yourself up and saying how wonderful you are, encouraging your teammate, when your teammate's made a mistake and all the rest of the players are on his back and swearing at him and getting on him, you're the guy that goes up, puts your arm on his shoulder and encourages him.
00:20:58
Speaker
These are all things, I think, having that integrity, having that compassion and caring for your teammate outwith the game. You know, being aware of what's going on in his background, being that person that he can go to. I do believe that it's possible for a player to kind of function in many respects as a chaplain. Actually, one of our chaplains, who's at e Strathsby Thistle,
00:21:22
Speaker
and not too far from Perth and Granton Spee. It's a funny story, he's actually one of their players as well. and he I'll tell you briefly, he retired from playing and that made him available to come in as a chaplain. Appointing him as a chaplain, the the manager said, look, feel f free to join in training in with the boys and liked what he saw.
00:21:41
Speaker
He said, look, we've got a bit of an injury crisis. Can I sign you and just stick you in the bench to make our bench look stronger? He asked my opinion. I said, yeah, go for it. Somebody got injured the following game. He put him on, was player of the match and he was player of the season last season. um Great story. And so, yeah, I think you just go in there and and and if you go in, not in it for yourself, because most players are in it for themselves.
00:22:07
Speaker
if you If you're seen to not be that guy and really want your teammates to do well, to encourage a guy that's playing in your position, even though he's keeping you out the team, these are the things I think are the distinctives that make our witness credible.
Church Engagement with Local Sports Clubs
00:22:23
Speaker
Thank you. yeah You've mentioned, obviously, certain ways of doing things the right way and the wrong way. Obviously, we've talked about the tensions between what's the sort of worldliness and what Christians might think on that. I suppose, do do you have any advice on where a church might ah you know that perhaps isn't engaged with reaching out in the community space um and sort of things you can do and perhaps things you shouldn't do? And also, i suppose, does it does it have to be sport as well? Obviously, we are talking about sport, but I guess you know some churches may think, actually, none of us are here are sporty. What what advice do you do to reaching it do you have for reaching into those spaces? That's a great, great shout.
00:23:04
Speaker
The reality is the largest community hub, what is it in your vicinity? I'm going to suggest it probably is the football club, but here here's the rub on this. For example, we would have about 27 female football club chaplains at women's teams.
00:23:20
Speaker
I would hazard the guess to say that over half of them had no interest, no knowledge, no understanding of football beforehand, but they're passionate about people. And actually, some of our best chaplains were not previously sporty, but they recognised this was the biggest community hub.
00:23:37
Speaker
These were people who had been devalued, dehumanised, and I would say particularly in the women's game, under-resourced, overlooked. And if you're passionate about about Jesus, passionate about people, then you'll be passionate about what they're passionate about. And I would say that you know half of these chaplains who previously had no interest or knowledge in football now love it,
00:23:58
Speaker
because they love the people and and and and they really want to see these these girls flourish and and and so they've got behind them as people before they understood what they were doing as players. So for me it's not about being interested in sport, it's about being interested in people and really wanting to be present in a secular place to to manifest Christ.
00:24:20
Speaker
and And if you're a Christian sportsman or woman and you're playing in a local, don't know, Shinti club, netball, hockey, all the different rugby, cricket, all the sports that you cover, and you're sitting there thinking, I would love it if there was a chaplain at my club, what what should a sports person do to pursue that? great Great question. Now, I would generally say that the best person to champion the appointment of a chaplain is not a Christian player.
00:24:45
Speaker
because then it looks like he's got an agenda. ah So what would suggest is that if a Christian player thinks it would be great to have a chaplain here, is i actually put it to their manager, put it to the person of influence, the key decision-maker at the club, and explain beyond their own spiritual benefit, explain the benefits that it could be.
00:25:05
Speaker
So when when I go in as a chaplain, and yes, I'm there to support Christian players and bring discipleship to them, but actually they're not my main focus. i'm I'm there primarily for people that don't have any pastoral support in their home personal setting. The chances are that Christian player will hopefully belong to a church.
00:25:25
Speaker
But what about the rest of the team that don't have any connections to a church and don't have access to the pastoral support that we as believers do? That's who we are primarily there for.
Introducing Chaplaincy in Sports Clubs
00:25:35
Speaker
So what would say to the Christian is, if you think it would, if you don't have a chaplain at your football club or rugby club, whatever it might be, then find that the the person of favour in your club, the key holder, the gatekeeper, the decision maker, and explain the benefits this could be to your teammates rather than you, and then get them to get in touch with me.
00:25:55
Speaker
And also in the midst of that, don't, see, but my big pressure here is that, you know, I've got a queue of clubs asking for chaplains. My challenge is finding them. And they so I would say to the Christian player, before you ask the club, and have you got somebody in mind that could do it? that's got the right DNA, the right personality, skill sets and experience that could do a good job because clearly it's not for every Christian.
00:26:20
Speaker
So finally, before Simon wraps up then, where can people get hold of information both about the work you do in Scotland and I know you've got colleagues doing similar work in the rest of the UK. Where could people listening actually go in the different parts of the UK they're in to find out information about sports chaplaincy and how they can get involved?
00:26:36
Speaker
Well, I'm very happy for people to email me personally. You have my email address if they want to request that from you. More than happy for you to give that to them. and I've also written a book called Confessions of a Football Chaplain, and which is humorous and heartwarming at the same time in terms of the the growth of chaplaincy in Scottish football. It's available on Amazon.com. and contact details around that as well. And that would give somebody a real flavour about Scottish football culture and the impact of chaplaincy upon that. So
Integration of Sport and Faith
00:27:05
Speaker
it's called Confessions of a Football Chaplain by myself, of Mark Fleming, available on Amazon.
00:27:11
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you so much. Well, I think just just to sum up, actually, one of the things that's been a really sort of central feature of what you said is just actually the cultural power of sport in our society. And i I personally think it's a wonderful feature of life that actually doesn't have to be divorced from or against what we believe as Christians, as you said. So, yeah, thank you so much, Mark, for helping us navigate that and actually see the opportunities around us and perhaps someone might be in inspired to become a sports chaplain, as you say, if there's ah there's a great need. and In fact, it's also reminded me a bit of Paul's teaching about the Christian faith being like running a race as well, which is a lovely metaphor, Hebrews 12, 1 Corinthians 9, just reminding us actually to be ready for what's ahead and of course the the challenges that will will come with that. and I loved your point about building bridges, which is all
00:27:59
Speaker
what we're about here at Solas. And I loved your point. We were talking just before the show where you said used to think actually the important thing was to get the world into the church, but now actually realizing it's really important to get the church into the world that way around as well. ah Although of course, both are important. yeah So thank you so much again, Mark. And thank you all for listening to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas.
00:28:21
Speaker
Do tune in again in and in the next couple of weeks for another inspiring guest helping us to share Christ persuasively with those around us.