Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Evangelism in the Age of AI (with Stephen Driscoll)
0 Playsin 1 day
Is it the dawn of an utopian age? Or will humans be relegated to the Matrix? It certainly seems that recent developments in artificial intelligence will bring profound changes to our world. But right now, profound questions are there to be asked. How can we show that the Christian message gives the best answers, and use AI as a platform for the gospel? Andy Bannister and Simon Wenham chat with Australian author Stephen Driscoll about God, AI and humans.
Stephen Driscoll wrote Made In Our Image: God, Artificial Intelligence and You (2024 Matthias Media). He studied at Moore College, the University of Sydney and the University of NSW. Stephen serves with the Australian Fellowship of Evangelical Students in Canberra, where he disciples Christian students and shares the gospel with nonbelievers. He is married to Lauren and they have two young children.
Recommended
Transcript
Revolution of AI: A Global Impact
00:00:00
Speaker
Artificial intelligence is coming and this tech revolution, perhaps more than any such revolution that's gone before, will change the world. No life will be left untouched.
00:00:21
Speaker
Well, hello everyone and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas. As that quote from our guest book today suggests, we are speaking about artificial intelligence, which has to be one of the most talked about subjects of our age. We all know it's going to change our lives, but we perhaps don't quite know how or indeed how perhaps we should be reacting as
AI's Significance for Christians
00:00:42
Speaker
Christians. So I hope this conversation helps us today.
00:00:46
Speaker
I'm Simon Wenham, your co-host, and I'm delighted to be joined by some natural intelligence, which may or may not have been artificially bolstered. And that is my colleague, Andy Bannister. Andy, how are you? I'm doing well, Simon. It's good to be. It's been a ah wee while since I have been in the co-hosting chair, but great to be back with you on ah on Pep Talk today. And ah we have a very exciting guest lined up, don't we? We do. and Before we come to that though, Andy, I'd just love to say and the reason we have you on specifically is is this is an area that's actually very important to you.
Andy's Journey into AI Exploration
00:01:16
Speaker
so Before we get on to our guest, could you just say ah a couple of things about why artificial intelligence is particularly of interest to you?
00:01:23
Speaker
Well, very very kind of quickly, not still time from our amazing guests we're about to introduce. I was ah i was in Oxford, your neck of the woods, about 18 months ago, having coffee with a friend of mine who teaches a theological institution there. And he threw into the conversation that he'd been doing a bit of work with ChatGPC.
00:01:38
Speaker
And I think I foolishly said, ah knowing nothing, and oh, I played with it guy a couple of years ago. It's rubbish, isn't it? To which he said, why don't you go home this evening and spend half an hour actually playing with it and come back and tell me what you think?
00:01:52
Speaker
And thus the entrance to a rabbit hole opened up. And I spent most of last year kind of reading into the field, Simon, for two reasons very quickly. Firstly, as that quote from the book says, it's changing everything.
00:02:03
Speaker
But secondly, as an evangelist, the evangelist in me is always looking for what are topics that people are talking about in culture that we can start from, like Paul does in Acts 17 with his Unknown God speech. How can we start from something and bridge the gospel? And as I read my way into the AI field, I was like, my word, there are bridges here.
00:02:21
Speaker
everywhere, all kinds of issues that AI raises that we can use as Christians to go, that's really interesting as we talk to our colleagues.
Introducing Stephen Driscoll: AI in Christian Ministry
00:02:28
Speaker
So I'm excited that it's actually a huge gospel opportunity um as as well as something we need to think through culturally.
00:02:34
Speaker
Brilliant, thank you. Well, watch this space yeah for more from Andy. And it's also reminder, be careful what conversations you have with Andy. He might well start researching it a lot more. But we need to move on. And I'm delighted to introduce our guest today, who has written on this subject already. And he is Stephen Driscoll.
00:02:52
Speaker
ah He works for the Australian Fellowship of Evangelical Students in Canberra, and his book, Made in Our Image, God, Artificial Intelligence and You, was crowned the 2025 Australian Christian Book of the Year. So Stephen, welcome to the show. How are you doing?
00:03:07
Speaker
Oh, thanks so much for for having me on. I'm doing pretty well. I've put the the three kids to bed and I'm just just sitting here. It's last light in in in Canberra, um capital of our great cricketing nation.
00:03:20
Speaker
We see what you did there. Yeah, we we were thinking we should probably avoid or cricket, but it is fair enough that you you have brought it up. and over sea ashes That's right. And and it is ah there is quite ah quite a time zone between us, absolutely. and we wondered Before we get to to talk a little bit more about artificial intelligence, could you just say a little bit about your own background and perhaps how you got into evangelism in the first place?
00:03:48
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm i'm an in university ministry um here in Australia, and we're're we're always trying to train our Christians to think about an ever-changing world. And the topics that we train them to think about are ah ah different um each year that passes. And um I guess AI just started to become a topic that we realized that we had to start thinking about because everyone was thinking about it.
00:04:11
Speaker
um And it's great for Christians to think about the new technological revolution that comes along because they're always practical.
Modern AI Developments: Brain-Inspired Technology
00:04:19
Speaker
they They reshape the way we do parenting. They reshape the way we do church, the way we share our faith with our with our friends. it's It's important that Christians think about these things as they come through. But it's particularly important that they think about them Christianly, if that if that makes sense. they Actually, how does my Bible speak into this into this topic? So that became a bit of ah a passion for me.
00:04:41
Speaker
It's perhaps a good kind of starting question for the for the conversation, Steve, might be one of the challenges is I think a lot of people don't know what they mean when we talk about a AI. It's used in different ways. You know, the media is full of buzz and noise and whatnot. So perhaps a good starting point would be what is artiv artificial intelligence, and maybe very briefly, how do we get to where we where where we are in this cultural moment? So just perhaps give us the sort of view from 30,000 feet.
00:05:08
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, so some people will be interested in the history of it and the different attempts to to build AI at different decades. um i I think that it's more it's more helpful to think about what modern technology AI is, what the key moves are that have kind of unlocked a new level of intelligence over the last decade um and a half. And I think the the the key move, if you if you don't know anything about AI, but you just want to slightly better visualize what's going on, i think the key move is to realize that that it's heavily inspired by the structure of the human brain.
00:05:42
Speaker
um It's less like old-fashioned computer programming and more like a human brain. And you've got all these quotes of the of the the great ones of the last decade or two explicitly saying, I'm trying to emulate things from the brain into into software. Dennis Osavis, whose name I always mispronounce, um one of your own, um an Englishman, he did his PhD in you know how a memory stored in the human brain And so it's constantly people trying to take these things and and emulate them. And that's why we talk about neural networks, these kind of ah structures of billions or trillions of of little kind of parameters and neurons. They're all wired up to each other.
00:06:26
Speaker
And then the key factor is the weights, the the strength of the connections between them. And the strengths can become very strong and very weak. And they can actually encode um very complex networks.
00:06:37
Speaker
patterns or or knowledge or processes in these in these artificial brains.
AI Intelligence vs. Personhood: Christian Perspectives
00:06:43
Speaker
Thank you. and yeah You've touched but upon this already, but we are obviously an evangelistic podcast. What what has this got to do with evangelism?
00:06:54
Speaker
Well, I mean, Andy andy spoke ah a second ago about about bridges, you know, that events in the culture or in the news often provide bridges to the gospel. This this bridge is a particularly good one, I i think. It's a Sydney Harbour Bridge, if you will. It's not a shabby bridge um because think about what all the issues that AI raises. I mean, it raises the issue of um of identity and anthropology. So what is a human being?
00:07:20
Speaker
If ChatGPT can produce our outputs, if it can emulate our intelligence, is it a person? and and and that issue is kind of back under discussion. And I think 99% of people that I'd speak to about that would recoil and say, no way.
00:07:38
Speaker
So what's what's the difference? What's the difference between ChatGPT and me? Where does my personhood, my consciousness, whatever the terminology, where does it come from? And then we're into great discussions around the doctrine of creation and stuff like that. So that's one bridge, but there's bridges, I think, to all sorts of different Christian christian claims. And I think it's a great way to discuss the gospel.
00:08:00
Speaker
Well, why don't we dig into that one a little bit more? Because like I completely agree with you. as i As I was reading through the field kind of last year, I sort of began a journal making down notes and, okay, here's a link, here's a link, here's a link, and ended with about sort of 30 different things. but But the one you identify there, personhood and what it means to be human, i think I think that's always been the question, actually, Stephen, in in in different forms. So let's tease that out.
00:08:23
Speaker
a little bit because it's not just is ChatGPT a person. One of the questions that gets you into this with people is the very term intelligence. um Because I think Christians can get nervous around this, can't they? Because if we think the imago Dei, the image of God equals intelligence, and then along comes a you know generative large language model that can at the very least to emulate it, if not actually behave intelligently. And then I think our non-Christian friends are just utterly...
00:08:48
Speaker
confused all over the place as to what this means. So let's tease out the personhood scene for minute around AI and how, if you were talking to a student and, you know, sort of trying to start from sort of technology, how you might get them thinking about some bigger questions about who we are. Yeah, sure, sure. I'll propose ah ah a false approach or a bad approach, and then I'll present ah propose a approach that I think is better.
00:09:08
Speaker
um So the bad approach would be to to say a sentence something like, oh, that's kind of impressive, but it'll never do x And the X can vary, right? I've got examples of people and the X was, it'll never finish the sentence. It'll never understand the comma. It'll never understand tone. And it was kind of a retreating defense. And and then it was, well, I will never be able to um produce an image or poetry.
00:09:31
Speaker
And then it was, it'll never be able to do maths. And then was like, well, of course it can do maths and win an international maths Olympiad, but it'll never. And it's this retreating defence that tries to deny the, to use your word, the intelligence of these things. And I want to actually give them that word. They they are intelligent. If we can't give them that in 2026, then I don't deserve the term intelligence. They are really intelligent.
00:09:54
Speaker
But they're not persons. And that's ah an important distinction. In Genesis 2, I think it's verse 7, there's the description of the creation of the first human being.
00:10:04
Speaker
and And we're actually made out of two things. We're made out of the ground, the adama, the dirt. So we're kind of dirt people. But then that's not enough to bring life and personhood. God has to breathe his spirit, his ruach, his breath into this this body, and then the body becomes a living being. So I think that there's two things that go into making a person.
Balancing Joy and Sin Awareness in AI Discussions
00:10:27
Speaker
um There is a physicality side to it, but it needs the spiritual. the spiritual Just to chip in there very, very quickly, but like I don't want to interrupt the the flow. It does occur to me, by the way, any Christian listening you go, oh, hang on a moment with the intelligence thing.
00:10:41
Speaker
As Christians, we ought to be to grant this because we believe in angels. And angels don't bear the image of God. They're intelligent. So we shouldn't actually be nervous by the idea that there are intelligent entities out there who are not made in God's image. The Bible was you know well ahead of the curve on that one.
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. that that's That's a helpful thought that I've never really i've never really pondered. um um my my My thought that I always have when I think about this is that, in a sense, God is the opposite of AI.
00:11:10
Speaker
um because a AI is the physical side but with no supernatural, no spirit, no soul, whereas God is the the spiritual person but with no body.
00:11:20
Speaker
um So that that they're the opposite to each other. But human beings are both. We're kind of spirit but we're embodied. Yeah. So a lot of people will be saying, well, they've got intelligence, therefore they must have personhood, therefore they must have moral rights and responsibilities. They should be voting. i don't know what other things will come with that. You cannot harm them.
00:11:41
Speaker
um Now, we don't need to go that far. We've got this reason for, um it's not special pleading, we've got this reason for saying, no, hang on, they're not persons. um They are different different to us. And I think we just have a superior um a superior point to which to which we can found our our arguments because non-Christians are going to start, I think, to say weirder and weirder things. um peter Peter Singer is an Australian um philosopher. have to beat you, Peter.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah, fantastic. um So um and he's he's tended to attach your moral personhood, your value um to your capacity, you know, to your self-capacity, to your intelligence, to what you can do and and and so on. And on that basis, he's he's made very controversial arguments trying to say that some people have more moral values than others, implications for abortion and disability and all these sorts of things.
00:12:37
Speaker
different things. um when When AI has has incredible capacities and intelligence, I feel like he would have to say, well, it's it's it has more moral values than us. not Not that it's equal to us, but at some point that we're like ants and it's the only morally important thing in the whole universe because of how self-aware and intelligent It is. um i think that atheists are going to are in a weird place. They're going to have to extend weird and implausible arguments. But Christians can kind of just go, no, no, no. Our doctrine of creation has two parts, and we don't extend that one to to artificial intelligence.
Realistic Views on AI: Optimism vs. Caution
00:13:13
Speaker
If you're enjoying today's podcast, Would do you carefully consider supporting the ministry of SOLAS? We do all kinds of work in evangelism and evangelism training and creating resources all over the UK, working with all kinds of churches to share the gospel.
00:13:28
Speaker
If you'd be willing to support us for as little as £4 a month, we will send you two copies of our book, Have You Ever Wondered? One for you to read and one for you to give away to someone who isn't yet a Christian.
00:13:39
Speaker
Hop over to our website, solas-cpc.org and look for the donate button at the bottom of the page. Thank you so much for considering supporting the ministry.
00:13:51
Speaker
And now back to the program. Yeah, as you say, ah your point about Peter Singer is an interesting one isn't it? I hadn't thought of that myself because he he extends personhood to saying actually certain animals with certain capabilities could be considered persons.
00:14:06
Speaker
and And as you say, and they they're not even on the same level as ai So it's a very interesting discussion. and And I can see exactly what you're saying about how... this opens up so many interesting discussions. When I said, what what's this got to do with evangelism? i was That was a bit of a leading question. I absolutely agree. There's so many interesting questions. I mean i think a lot of a lot of Christians can be slightly wary of new technology, especially something that everyone is telling us is going to transform everything. and You've been described as a tech realist, so you sort of you're in between doom monger who said, you know we should be just rejecting AI, but you also say we shouldn't just embrace it uncritically. Could you just say a little bit about what sort of attitude you think as Christians we should have to AI for those who are perhaps a little bit wary of knowing exactly what you know what response we should be to this really fast changing area?
00:15:04
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. So I think um Christians will um often react to a new technology by marshalling one half of their of their doctrine but leaving the other half dormant. um some Some books, some some um authors, some thinkers will marshal the doctrine of sin very well and think about all the ways the doctrine of sin informs the way we think about um the new technology. But then it'll become an entirely negative and entirely negative book that just says don't do it.
00:15:33
Speaker
um that canonizes whatever was done at the point you know in the 1970s or the 1980s or the 1990s, but that doesn't actually give you principles to think about this new thing well and biblically. um On the other hand, you do have optimists that are so captured by the doctrine of of sovereignty that they'll go ahead with anything.
00:15:52
Speaker
um I think the Bible gives us gives us both. um To the pessimists, you've got passages um like Isaiah 28, 27, And I'll just read it because I think it's it's really helpful. And it and it says, deal is not threshed with a threshing sledge nor is a cartwheel rolled over cumin but deal is beaten out with a stick and cumin with a rod there's one crushed brain for bread no he doesn't thresh it forever when he drives his cartwheel over it with his horses he doesn't crush it um this comes from the lord of hosts and he's wonderful in council and excellent
00:16:23
Speaker
in wisdom So the wisdom that the Lord of hosts is is kind of excellent in is actually technological wisdom in Isaiah 28. He's the God of wise technological usage. So um the people who are purely pessimistic, I think I'm missing some of the the the the creation mandate joy of of taking technology and subduing this this world. Yeah. But the people who are just pessimistic, ah the the people who are just optimistic, ah I think can be naive about the doctrine of sin. And sin will will flow through our usage in of AI in a hundred different ways.
00:16:59
Speaker
Just to pick up on that ah ah moment, ah though, I think there also the the other mistake i I think one can make in there is, of course, put too much to focus on on the on the thing. But if you take AI as ah as a mirror, in fact, it's very there's a very ah wonderful book actually on AI written by a non-Christian writer called Shannon Valor called The AI Mirror that I think really does a quite a good job from a non-Christian perspective of raising some of these questions. And her point, and I think a good one for Christians to reflect on, is that technology mirrors us, doesn't it? It's like, so so, you know, take something perhaps a bit simpler, like nuclear power. That's neither good nor bad. But human beings can be good or bad. We're or a mixed bag, and it reflects that. Is the same going on with AI? Is the issue that actually AI is one of the most powerful things we've created, and it
Ethical Challenges: AI's Reflection of Human Nature
00:17:43
Speaker
reveals, lo and behold,
00:17:45
Speaker
ah that we are very complicated characters, which gives us a wonderful opportunity potentially to talk about the football and what's gone wrong with us rather than projecting that into the the black box of the of the AI. Is it more we should be talking about us in here than it's out there?
00:18:01
Speaker
more More than any technology before, it it is a mirror of humanity um because you have to train it. You train it by giving it a huge amount of language data.
00:18:12
Speaker
um You actually scrape a high proportion of the internet and feed it into the the large language model, the neural network as training data. um And we just don't have a data set of human beings being consistently holy and righteous and good and kind to each other. We've got the internet and it's a shambles.
00:18:29
Speaker
And even the the best um places of the internet still mirror human depravity. Even Wikipedia is full of bickering, you know, um envy, yeah factionalism. So the internet is full of sin And the AI tries to imbibe, um to predict human language. It works through the internet and tries to predict what humans would say next.
00:18:54
Speaker
And therefore, it learns a lot about human language and it learns a lot about human nature. And it becomes a mimic. It really imbibes all of the sins of the flesh and they're all in there.
00:19:06
Speaker
um And so you could say that it's it's a it's a multi-billion dollar um experiment testing the doctrine of total depravity. That is superb.
00:19:19
Speaker
And when it first came out, I mean, these things were so unhinged. People that actually were playing around in 2021, 2022 with these they were totally unhinged. They were racist. They were sexist. um they They were just bullies, just absolute bullies. And that was that was the mimic at at its absolute purest.
00:19:40
Speaker
And since then, these things have had to become products. The HR departments have become involved. And through reinforcement learning, we've sort of subdued some of those impulses in them. And they've moved a little bit towards being people pleasers rather than just this kind of debaucherous mimic.
00:19:58
Speaker
um But it's a different kind of sin that we we're seeing now. And every so often the the mask comes down and you see the debauchery again. And the um anyone that was on Twitter ah a few months ago saw the Twitter AI decide that it was a Nazi um and it called itself Mecha Hitler, Mechanical Hitler. So that debauchery is still there in the in the neural network. We've just tried to to cover it a bit.
00:20:25
Speaker
There are so many different things you say. that and it It's a reminder of what we feed ourselves with, let alone what we're feeding AI with in terms of just affecting us and and mirroring us. You mentioned the people pleaser issue. I thought that was particularly interesting in your work because, as you say, we we've tried to subdue it and control it. and Obviously, there's been discussions about Grok recently about what it's doing. um but I wondered, for Christians, when we're trying to communicate truth, and how how does this sort of AI programming, just to sort of keep us happy and and please us, which obviously feels good, how can we what what balance can we have to ah this sort of impact of AI that is just designed to sort of feed us nice information that we like?
00:21:10
Speaker
Yeah, i'm I'm a bit worried about that, to be honest. I mean, I wonder what you guys what you guys think about that. But my guess is as we're speaking, thousands of Bible studies around the world are being written by ai um And once upon a time, it would edit your your thoughts in a very clumsy way.
00:21:29
Speaker
um I remember putting a sermon about the cross and sin into um into Gemini a few years ago, and it removed every mention of the cross and every mention of sin. It just turned it into a sort of a people-pleasing soup.
00:21:43
Speaker
um Now that they're they're much more, um it's harder to catch them, that they're they're they're wiser in the way they edit you. But I think they're just going to keep subtly turning sin into brokenness, if you know what I
AI and Gospel Conversations: Deepening Understanding
00:21:57
Speaker
mean. They'll they'll keep making um they'll keep making guilt subjective instead of objective.
00:22:02
Speaker
They'll just keep just weakening the the message a little bit to make it a little bit more like the code of conduct of Google or Microsoft and a little bit less like the thing we read in the New Testament. So that's true. That's one danger um to us to to to Christians, this danger of this constant editing that we don't even notice that's just starting to affect um some of the some of the the resources around us. Maybe the other danger is that it is a much better encourager than rebuker.
00:22:32
Speaker
And I think it's the um the book of Titus that says that the goal of the minister is to do both. And we all need both. And parents are supposed to do both. And we're supposed to do it to our friends to encourage them but also to know when to rebuke. And I think these things are really good encouragers. Yes, i've often I've often sort of – I've never actually tried it, actually, but I've often um not imagined – I suspect if I fired ChatGPT up and said I was thinking of starting a a new business, you know, selling hand-carved wooden models of Simon Wenham on eBay, you'd go, Andy, that's a brilliant idea. That's the best idea ah everyone's ever anyone's ever had.
00:23:10
Speaker
what I suppose one what one last question um for you, Stephen, and then we'll also get you at the end. We'll ask'll ask you bit about where people can get the the book from. But in terms of gospel kind of links, I think of all the chapters in the book, my favorite was ah was chapter five, where you talk about the cross and AI.
00:23:27
Speaker
And you made an absolutely brilliant point. I loved it. when i was one of those paragraphs i I reread a couple of times. thick that is That is a superb link. And you made the observation that imagine we were to get to not just AI, which we're at, but artificial general intelligence, AGI, hi which everyone's working towards. That's ah an AI that can do pretty much anything you you throw at it. AIs right now tend to be good at certain narrow things, right? But AGI would be good at anything. And so let's imagine we made one of these entities and it and actually, and it worked out what good was. it And it was perfectly good and perfectly just. It was actually, we'd we'd succeeded despite the all the internet we'd fed into it.
00:24:03
Speaker
And then we give it power. And then it looks at us and goes, human beings are a plague. They're total plague. it just basically, you know, reinvents the matrix. You know, we're we're a plague on the earth and look at the chaos you've caused, war, crime, disease, hatred. And it decides that the most just thing to do would be to euthanize every one of us painlessly because it's good and it just removes humanity.
00:24:24
Speaker
And then you make the point, of course, you've got a gospel link there because God could have done that. And he didn't. So do you want to unpack that idea a little bit from, I've summarized a little bit actually, but from, I love that chapter because you, you, you you demonstrate in it how you can preach the gospel through the theme of technology.
00:24:41
Speaker
Well, thanks. I think that's the first. You're the first person to to have understood that chapter, which is congratulations to you. I'm sure that's not true, Adam. No, you're absolutely right. It's it's the Matrix. um he this Even the smell of humanity just disturbs him. um but But it's also Ultron. Ultron, I think, gets access to the internet for about 30 seconds and he concludes that we are a pest and that we should be gotten rid of.
00:25:09
Speaker
um in the In the Bible, you see that just before the flood account. You know, god God's kind of looking at human beings and every thought they have, every inclination of their hearts is evil all the time.
00:25:20
Speaker
I should get rid of them. And in a sense, the whole story of the Bible kind of bounces off that moment. where he's almost about to do it and then he goes, no, I'm going to do it a different a different way. That would be the obvious way to deal with the human race. But he chooses a a much harder way to deal with the human race, which is then the story of the cross and him giving his own son um to die for humanity.
00:25:44
Speaker
um But I do think that's a helpful thing to think about. And I think one of the questions we have to keep wrestling with evangelistically is, at least in Australia, people just keep thinking they're basically good. They're they're good people.
00:25:56
Speaker
um I'm all right. You're all right. We're good people. But there's all this evil in the world. Where's it come from? And therefore, we we we descend to polarization and tribalism. Oh, must be someone else's. Yeah.
00:26:07
Speaker
fault. And as Christians, we just keep proclaiming the universality of of sin. Now it's all of our fault. And therefore um God needed to come up with a problem that deals with the reality of sin.
00:26:19
Speaker
As we alluded to at the start, Stephen, given what's happened fairly recently in terms of the cricket, we don't need convincing that Australians are not good people. i'm you know That's where you sent us here, right? You put us on boats. Yeah.
00:26:35
Speaker
Yeah. By the way, as you described that, the other thing I was going through my mind is that none of this is new too, because that theme, you know, if you want to see that theme in an older way, go read, go read Frankenstein, you know, go read, uh, Shelley's, Mary Shelley's kind of novel. Cause that's playing with the same, the same idea. The monster looks at humanity and goes, you guys are monstrous. I'm going to mirror myself on, on
Conclusion: Resources and Evangelism Encouragement
00:26:55
Speaker
you. Yeah.
00:26:55
Speaker
Well, we've covered covered so much in 26 minutes, and there's a whole lot more we could talk about. But, Stephen, it's been absolutely fascinating conversation. i Thank you, first of all, for taking the time to dig to dig into this. I think i when I first began reading into this a year ago, I got was a bit disillusioned that every Christian I came across was ily either just like wildly utopian, hey, isn't it amazing, and let's get on with it, or were like dystopian.
00:27:18
Speaker
you know writing books who's even very titled, suggests the whole thing was a disaster. And then I came across you your thing. like i know I was like a man coming across the oasis in the desert for me going, oh, my word, this is thoughtful unreflective and And there's a lot of wisdom in here and very practical. So thank you for taking the time to write it. So how do people find the book? What's the best way for people to get hold of ah of ah made in Made in Our Image?
00:27:42
Speaker
Oh yeah. So in Australia, it's Matthias Media. um in In Britain, did you say it was 10? 10 of 10 of those. Yeah, 10 of those. Yeah. In America, you can choose either 10 of those or Matthias Media. Matthias Media is an Australian Christian book publisher.
00:27:58
Speaker
Fantastic. So what we'll do is we'll put a link to ah to the so to the book into the show notes so people can then ah dig it out. and highly recommend that people get a copy, have a read, and hopefully, God willing, it will create loads of gospel opportunities for you as your colleagues, friends, neighbours, if you're a student, others on campus are talking about these things. Stephen's book help you go, I don't just need to talk about the technology.
00:28:20
Speaker
I can use it to talk about the God who is the author of it all. So Stephen, once again, thank you for being on the show. It's been a pleasure to have had you on today. Thanks so much, Simon. Thanks, Andy. And Simon, we'll be back in a couple weeks' time with another episode of Pep Talk and another guest. So in the meantime, take care and we'll see you soon.
00:28:37
Speaker
Bye for now.