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Marketplace Apostles (with Gideon Okoli)
43 Plays1 hour ago
What does it really mean to live out your faith in the marketplace? In this episode of PEP Talk, Simon and Gavin sit down with Gideon Okoli for a powerful conversation about purpose, leadership, and influence beyond the church walls. Drawing inspiration from Biblical figures like Joseph, Esther, and Daniel, Gideon challenges the idea that spiritual impact only happens in a 'ministry setting' — arguing instead that God positions people strategically in business, government, and everyday work. If you’ve ever wondered how your faith and vocation connect, this episode will inspire you to rethink where and how you can share your faith.
Find our more about workplace evangelism at:
Transform Work UK
The Business Connection (Scotland)
Gideon Okoli is a project manager and marketing strategist passionate about helping brands grow with clarity and purpose. Through his work in advertising and media strategy, he helps businesses gain attention and build lasting influence in competitive markets. As a person of faith, Gideon is deeply interested in the intersection of faith, purpose, leadership, and the principles that guide meaningful impact in both business and life.
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Transcript
Embracing Christian Calling in the Workplace
00:00:00
Speaker
Our vision is to encourage, equip and empower every Christian in the workplace to feel confident in their calling and connected to others in their organisation, sector and city in order to transform society.
Is Ministry Only Church-Related?
00:00:22
Speaker
One of the biggest challenges for Christians is that we can often think of ministry as relating only to activities we do in or for the church. In fact, being in ministry is often seen as the highest calling that a Christian can have, with everything else perhaps seen as less important.
00:00:41
Speaker
But most Christians aren't in full-time ministry, so is that the right way of seeing things?
Introduction to 'Pep Talk' Podcast
00:00:48
Speaker
In this edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas, we are exploring witnessing in the workplace. I'm Simon Wenham and I'm joined by my irrepressible colleague Gavin Matthews. Gavin, how are you?
00:01:02
Speaker
i was about to say I'm doing okay, but I'm kind of stifling a sneeze. It's like kind of it's um pollen season. So if I kind of suddenly explode all over the microphone, apologies to you and listeners.
00:01:15
Speaker
Okay, well, hopefully that won't happen. But before before we come to our guests, actually, it'd be lovely just to hear from you, Gavin, because I know this is an important topic ah for
Thrive 25 and Workplace Faith Stories
00:01:25
Speaker
you particularly. Can you just say a little bit more about why that is?
00:01:29
Speaker
Yeah, because we were working last year with ah with ah a tour around Scotland called Thrive 25, which is about trying to promote ah Christian workplace groups, you know, to get Christians together, to get a bit better at um sharing their faith, being visible for Christ in the workplace. And it seems like such just such an important area for us all. And also there are so many good stories around the country of people doing amazing work in insurance companies and doctors' practices and hospitals and councils, but the rest of the church don't know. so part of telling that good story is part of what we should be involved in. so i think it's important.
00:02:00
Speaker
Great.
Guest Gideon Okoli's Evangelism Journey
00:02:01
Speaker
Thank you. And that's also a very nice link to our guest today, who actually we became connected to through Thrive because he is on the advisory board of ah the of the Thrive Network. And there there's going to be one this year and next year. So do look out for that.
00:02:18
Speaker
um He is Gideon Okoli, a project manager and marketing strategist. ah Gideon, welcome to Pep Talk. Before we start, could um you perhaps just say a little bit about your own background and how you got involved in evangelism in the first place?
00:02:34
Speaker
Thank you, Simon. So for me, i grew up from a Christian home. um I've had parents that will always you know ensure that you get to church. But I found Christ for myself when I got into the highest education. It's different when you are in an environment and you know based on you know your parents taking you to church and then getting you getting you involved. And then you come to a point where you're like, what should my life look like?
00:02:59
Speaker
So I go into the high institution and then that's when I found that moment. It was just that, because for me, it was first that opportunity to live life because it was my first opportunity outside of home. But then I somehow believed that my parents' prayers and their investment from my early stages didn't allow me to go that route because I really wanted to. I remember I got into school. The very first week, I bought this polo, and then the inscription on the polo was, born sinna Like, I really wanted to live life because I'm like, this is it for me. But somehow...
00:03:31
Speaker
God just, you know, changed that appetite from an experience in church. You know, I attended a Sunday service and then the pastor was quite, you know, focused on helping us ah focus on the need, focus on that they did the sermon that day was really about what life should look like for us, what how what God has created for us, how God wants to see us live our life on earth. And that hit me deeply. And that was when the entire journey started.
00:03:58
Speaker
From that moment, I joined the choir. sang in church for a while. after After that experience, I joined the media team because was really interested in media. And then my pastor took interest in me and then he asked me to work with him as...
00:04:11
Speaker
support staff. So I was studying at the time, i was going with him to functions, to different events. Of course, being around the past just more dealt my life. And it's just been that way for me up until today. yeah that That's lovely. It's really nice to see you again on the screen after having met you on on the Thrive thing. now in a minute or two, we're going to talk about what it means to be a Christian in the
Career Transitions and New Ventures
00:04:33
Speaker
workplace. But before we kind of get into that, tell us, what is your workplace? What what do you do for a living? And what are the kind of pressures pressures, challenges that you face in your work? and
00:04:43
Speaker
What gives you job satisfaction in the work that you do Monday to Friday? Okay, so um right now I'm in i' in the middle of a transition process. Up until the end of January, I was working with an arm of Balmoral Group as a project manager. So we delivered the new Skylake restaurant at the Markleaf Hotel, and they were commissioned that in January. Afterwards, I just, was before that time, I am one person that I leave by,
00:05:09
Speaker
by the knowledge I get in my spirit. I felt like it was time up for, the time was up for every other engagement. I didn't get clarity on what next to do. So I enrolled for mini MBA program, which I started in February. But while I was just about starting the program, God dropped a thought in my heart, which was which is the current project I'm currently invested in now, which is Nexa, which is the car wash project.
00:05:29
Speaker
I was just driving off to go get my car washed one of those Saturday afternoons. And I'm like, I spend about an hour, 30 minutes every weekend just trying to get my car washed. I presume that must be the case for several other professionals. How can we build something that can help people reclaim that time back? And that's how the entire you know journey started.
00:05:49
Speaker
So that's where I'm pretty much invested in right now. julia Thank you. i yeah i was We were just discussing beforehand how I i also find getting getting my car washed slightly frustrating because of the time
Expressing Faith at Work Through Excellence
00:06:03
Speaker
commitments. That's really interesting that you're obviously trying to help people um have more time to themselves. and and We've we've but had quite a few guests on Pet Talk over the years who've been involved with Workplace Ministries, ah Ros Loker, Jim Grimmer. Those are both episodes you can hear elsewhere. yeah ah Do your colleagues know about your faith in Jesus? Are you still wearing the T-shirt? or
00:06:27
Speaker
And and how how do you bring up... ah you know, topics like speaking about your faith or trust in Jesus. how and how do we I don't wear that shit anymore. I have no change.
00:06:39
Speaker
it's For me, Jesus Christ, the living hope. That's it every now every day, every now and then. So yeah, my colleague know my faith. Like I put it up front. When I was working with Balmoral Group, remember one of those days, I sp i just i kind of try to spark these conversations. First, it begins with you know delivering your job excellently. but That's where it starts from. and When you get to points where you can your your colleagues see that You are full on. You you get the job done.
00:07:04
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Like you are not, there's no gap. There's no there's no loophole in what you're trying to do. That becomes like the basis of kind of the conversation. And then as I work with contractors, with suppliers and tradesmen, just kind of spark that conversation. I'm like, what is just what's your weekend like? What do you do on weekends? Because that's pretty much, you know, the first place to have, you know, the...
00:07:25
Speaker
the time where people get to commit themselves to, you know, to faith. And then, you know, from that moment, I discovered one of the contractors inside used to attend my church, King. So I'm like, so what happened? why Why have you not been attending church? Oh, I got into this relationship and then my girlfriend was this and that. And you know how um Westerners can be, you know,
00:07:45
Speaker
very private about their conversations. And then you're like, okay, that's fine. I'd love to see you in church anytime soon. They're like, well, where do said I worship at Kings too. And then that's how the convention gets on. I remember speaking to one of the directors on site and he was like, was like, oh, I like how you do stuff. Are you a Christian? said, no, I'm not a Christian. said, but you act like you're one. I said, no, I'm not a Christian. I'm not a Jesus thing. I don't do Jesus. I'm like, okay, okay, that's fine. But you just keep looking out for little opportunities to just have that conversation because you never will have a...
00:08:16
Speaker
the moment where you are allowed to to speak Christ at a place of work. But you just take advantage of every little friendly, casual talk to just, you know, chip it in. And then it it leaves the mark on the hat. And then when I, when i after that conversation, I go back, I'm just praying about them like, God, just on the seed, do the work. um My job is to sow the seed, just get the work done and get this guy. So, you know, and that's how it's been for me.
Marketplace Apostles: Influence and Impact
00:08:39
Speaker
I know when we met you at Thrive, you you were talking about kind of ah the threefold approach that you take to being visible for Jesus in the workplace. And the the first thing you kind of touched on in your last answer, actually, was about sort of pursuing excellence in your work. So why is pursuing excellence in your work important as a Christian? And know some people talk about their work as if it's only a place to to share Jesus, as if the work itself didn't matter. So why is pursuing excellence in the work itself, why does that matter to God and why does that matter as part of your witness for him? Yeah, so that that that um picked up from the Antioch experience where um they they saw the believers and said they acted like, but that's where the Christian conversion started.
00:09:24
Speaker
This is who Christ is. They acted Christ-like and they were called Christians. So the question now is, if I'm a Christian, I don't want to say I'm a Christian up front. Do I have the right characteristics?
00:09:38
Speaker
at my place of work? Am I delivering as Jesus would, as one that is seen to be the excellent person? so that's how we start. Excellent.
00:09:48
Speaker
I mean, do are you therefore saying that that that has sparked conversations? Are you saying people can then, we'll you know, will ask you questions about why are you doing this like that? i mean, is is that...
00:10:00
Speaker
Are you experiencing that? Are people seeing something different in you as a result? Not not not not not literally. People don't get to so ask you about your faith because of the quality of your service in the place of work. But the quality of a service the place of work helps you build certain relationships that you can of leverage on to have other conversations. And that's how it starts. Because nobody would say...
00:10:22
Speaker
yeah I've not i' not had that experience before. would love to know, are you doing this because you are a Christian? and ive I've never had that kind of experience before. But what you what happens is because you are because i have delivered excellently on certain bids, you now have just moved from just being a transactional colleague to building some sort of relationship.
00:10:40
Speaker
And that relationship becomes the bedrock of every other conversation that you build on. And that's how it's always happened for me.
00:10:49
Speaker
We hope that you are enjoying today's discussion about evangelism. But did you know that Solas also produces a wide range of digital resources to help you share the gospel in the online spaces you inhabit? Short reels, one minute shorts for Instagram and Snapchat, delivering the gospel, hopefully, and and in tune with the way that people want to receive it today. five-minute short answer videos perfect for Facebook and online blogs and church websites and more and it's all there for you to use at our website come and have a look at solas-cpc.org and now back to the program
00:11:26
Speaker
so with this um approach that you're suggesting I was wondering who inspires you to do that So you see, um there's always been this guiding mantra for me, and that is the fact that God doesn't just call people, he positions them.
00:11:41
Speaker
And if you understand positioning, you will not miss a... And if you don't understand positioning, you will miss that preacher calling. are a couple of characters in the Bible that I use to guide myself as marketplace apostle. For example, Joseph didn't preach sermons. He managed an economy as his chief strategist.
00:11:58
Speaker
Daniel did not pastor any church. He advised kings as an executive coach. Esther did not lead worship. She influenced governments. Nehemiah did not travel as an evangelist. He rebuilt infrastructure. Lydia wasn't running a ministry team.
00:12:14
Speaker
She was a businesswoman, a global trader, funding the kingdom. These guys were not second-tier believers. They were not less spiritual. They were not waiting for the ministry to come to them.
00:12:25
Speaker
The challenge we see in today's world is that we celebrate platforms, but God is looking for placement. And unfortunately, we have been taught to value visibility more impact. If we see this the other way around, we will deliver more value in our workplaces.
00:12:40
Speaker
And then the second thing you've spoken about after talking about excellence in work, the second thing you you talked a lot about was developing, you know, really sort of significant relationships with
Building Meaningful Workplace Relationships
00:12:51
Speaker
colleagues. And it's those relationships through which the love of God is transmitted. So how can we build better relationships with people that we work alongside? Because so often conversations don't get past the weather in Scotland, right? but you past the weather We talk about it all the time. Or football, if you're lucky. How do we get...
00:13:08
Speaker
to develop relationships that count, to have conversations that really matter? So in my own experience, it's always been about not focusing on transactional conversations. Because most leaders are always about the job, the targets, the budget, and all that. But when I deal with people, when I relate with my colleagues, it's always about how are you?
00:13:34
Speaker
That's where the conversation is always. How are you? What's going on in your life? If I've got that minute, talk to me about this. did you Do you need help? this Is this something we can talk about? Would you want me to come around? Will I be resourceful? Can I pray with you? That's always about that relationship. Because at that point, it's not always... Even yesterday, I was speaking with a colleague, a co-founder, and she was like, oh, they've got this... and applications to do, this lawyer to do. And when when I got on the call, she was like, let's talk about said, no, no, no, no. I didn't call you to about work. called you to talk about you.
00:14:06
Speaker
Right? And we started from them like, I'm with you on this. If you need support, I'm ready to support you. If you need prayers, happy to give some, happy to, you know, come in some time to pray for you about this. If you need finance, you get to that point. If you need some money, just let me know whatever I have. Because you get to that point where people no longer see you as a colleague, they now see you as a brother. And that is where you can have these conversations.
00:14:30
Speaker
That's a lovely way of putting it, isn't it? I think a lot of problems in this world is that we do see, or at least a lot of politics seems to be very transactional. Life is just a transaction. There's a price. And as you say, sort of developing much deeper relationships. um you You touched upon it
The Role of Prayer in Evangelism
00:14:45
Speaker
there there. You also, the third part of what you've said, your your approach to evangelism is praying for colleagues. Can you say a little bit about more, a little bit more about how that works um and what sorts of things are you praying about?
00:14:59
Speaker
So I'll tell you this. um I spend a bulk part of my prayer time praying in tongues because I believe strongly that in my head, this understanding that there's nothing I want ask God for that God doesn't know I need, right? So if he knows everything I need, i i' I'll rather ask God for that thing, I just begin to declare and proclaim that, you know, receiving that that item. But then when I start praying in, you know, in my in my in my wisdom,
00:15:27
Speaker
I have very few words to say. have very little to say. So I spend time praying. So what, like, if I go back a few months when I was at the Marcliffe, I joined the Marcliffe as knight porter sometime in 2024, while was still working with kings part-time role.
00:15:46
Speaker
east twin who yeah sometimestime ball the time while i was still working with kings and on a part-time road So because I walk at night, I have that liberty to have, you know, like hands-free items, you know, my earpiece. I put on certain songs and I pray sometimes two, three hours into the night. And it happens every other night I'm walking.
00:16:06
Speaker
I wouldn't say that I am praying for this specific thing about the hotel, but I'm praying within the hotel. I'm praying to God about the hotel. I'm praying to God about my life.
00:16:16
Speaker
And then before I knew what was happening, we started hearing conversations about the MacLeod being sold to the Amorau Group. And then that's you know that was like how things began to spiral up. And then i remember one of those nights in the place of prayer, I had God speak to me and says saying that you are a project manager. Several projects are about to kick off within this environment here.
00:16:39
Speaker
I will try to have a conversation with the leadership about them. I never would have thought about it because we had other guys that were working that probably could have done a better job. And there and then, i just sat down, took up the took up the system then, put together an application letter, sent it through to the MD. And before I knew it, by the next month, I was working within that same establishment as a project manager.
00:17:00
Speaker
So the thing is, you you never know what God is playing around you. But if you spend time in the place of prayers, God will, by default, direct your step into what he has designed for you. The same goes for even the project um we're working on just now. So prayer is that one part of me that i I spend so much time praying about things, praying about life, praying about, you know, opportunities, praying about the will of God.
00:17:25
Speaker
And that, for me, is like the biggest part of it, because I'm like... There's a lot going on that it takes almost days just for you to get off track. But when you spend time in the place of prayer, it just it directs your step and it leads you.
Becoming Visible for Jesus at Work
00:17:39
Speaker
Yeah. And that probably makes you more courageous, i would have thought, as a Christian, if you're coming from the presence of God. Because I know when we talk about ah people being um visible for Jesus at work, whether it's at a shop or a factory or a call center or whatever, a lot of Christians feel quite anxious. So if someone's listening to this and they're feeling kind of a stirring with them, yes, I need to step up, I need to be a bit more visible for Jesus in my workplace, what would you advise them to do? Where would you advise somebody to start if they've never spoken up for Jesus at work before, but they want to take those first tentative steps, what advice would you give them?
00:18:14
Speaker
So my advice in a workplace will always be to begin with a place of value-added delivery. That's how it begins. you are employed for a purpose. The workplace is, it God has put you there for, you know, to add value to that space.
00:18:32
Speaker
God didn't call you into that place of work to preach Christ directly. He called you, that was a good, to first add value and then through the value, see, when your light shines so light, that when your light shines, people, you know, they're gonna see other aspects of God in you. That would be my first recommendation, because on value creation.
00:18:51
Speaker
Be that one guy or that one lady that when you know um when when your your your your manager or the directors are talking about a unit, they can single you out as that one person that contributes you know effectively to the organization. And then the second is to build relationships beyond your work as much as you can.
00:19:15
Speaker
The concept of transformational leadership should be your guiding course. So as you relate to people, relate to them with them, with the intention, with the, the um what's the world now So, you know, there's this decision to say, I want to i want to impact the next person.
00:19:35
Speaker
Have that the back of your mind. i just i just just want to work with you and then just get off. Once we clock out and everyone goes on, that is the next bit. And then the last bit, which, of course, is the bit I always try to put my put my invest more in is prayer. I don't just pray because I want to pray. I pray because I have sown seeds.
00:19:54
Speaker
Sowing seeds is the first step. watering that seed and, you know, trusting the Holy Spirit to guide their heart is, that's the part I have no control over. So I use prayers to get that done. And then that's how, that's, these are like the three process I would recommend for anyone, you know, trying to preach Christ within the workplace.
00:20:12
Speaker
and And practically speaking, then, if you're, and you mentioned, obviously, building up
Emotional Intelligence in Faith Discussions
00:20:18
Speaker
relationships. So for those, because I think some people are wary of, am I allowed to say certain things about my faith in the workplace? You know, yeah are there certain rules? Are you saying that you're, so you obviously focus on doing excellent work, you build up those relationships? Yeah.
00:20:34
Speaker
And then, for example, actually speaking about your faith, would that be something that you do ah sort of outside of work? Or are you saying there are ways of doing it in work? Or is it, yeah, how do you navigate that, given that obviously you have to be careful in some work settings? And I think sometimes Christians are worried about sort of saying the wrong thing or damaging relationships or getting in trouble, perhaps. Yeah.
00:20:56
Speaker
Yeah, so there is always good today's always going to be a huge need for emotional intelligence and environmental ah environmental intelligence. You are understanding the environment you find yourself and then the emotions within the room that you're having that conversation. i definitely would not recommend having conversation the workplace within work times,
00:21:17
Speaker
about fate, but there are always break times. Back at MacLeaf, we'll have that 30 minutes break where you... It's a loose time. It's your time. It's not work time. These are moments where you sit around the table, you're trying to have lunch, And trying to have lunch, you're having conversation like, so what's been going on? What's happening? Oh, this, oh, that, oh, really? how do you manage this? And then you're coming in the next day, you're like, oh, yeah, you said something like, you said something happened the previous Have been able to sort it out? You are trying to bring back, you know, the previous conversation. And that shows that you care.
00:21:52
Speaker
And then people begin to open up to you because they don't see that you care. Do you need help with this? Can I help with this? Or maybe yeah but just you just, you sometimes I close from work. I'm just about driving off. I see my colleague trying to walk off the bus. I'm like, where do you stay? Can I drop you off?
00:22:05
Speaker
This little acts of kindness, they help people open up And then in the process of trying to drop the colleague off at work, you're having conversation off at home. You're having other conversations about life generally. or how about this? So what are you going to do for the weekend? Would you like to come around for dinner? These things, it's not always...
00:22:23
Speaker
the case for everyone is dependent on how you're led on and also on how much relationship you are built with the person you are speaking to. Because you also want to be careful. You don't want to you know, open up your vulnerability to everyone or let people, you know, get too vulnerable around you. You want to mind that too. So it's important that you are emotionally sensitive, you are environmentally aware of what is being said, of what of what signals you're sending out before you make this, you know, yeah,
00:22:48
Speaker
And so this whole process of being visible for Jesus and and work, you've kind of outlined doing excellence in work, pursuing deep relationships with people and and investing in prayer.
Reactions to Workplace Evangelism
00:22:59
Speaker
So that raises the spiritual temperature, brings Jesus onto the agenda. How have people kind of reacted to that? Has it been aggression or apathy or? actual interest in your faith from people alongside you.
00:23:12
Speaker
Okay, so i've had I've had positive responses to these relationships. And i've also had like, you know, I don't want to go there. Let's end it. you you have that I've had that experience, you know. i don't want to talk about Jesus. I'm like, oh, really? Why? You know, I'm like, I'm like,
00:23:29
Speaker
I'm sorry, I just don't want to talk about like, that's fine. That's And then just move on to other conversations and you just keep things going. Because ultimately, our lives as marketplace apostles is really, it's a compendium of every other thing we do outside the church, much more than what we say.
00:23:49
Speaker
So our ability to understand that within the confines of our workplace, we are We are apostles by way of our action. We are apostles by way of our character. We are apostles by way of the relationships we build. We are apostles by way of our delivery. Much more than we are apostles by way of speaking of you know of preaching, as they call it, as it happens in church. So that's really around how we manage that.
Marketplace Apostles: Actions and Relationships
00:24:16
Speaker
I really like that that concept of marketplace apostles. i think um I think we'd all be quite different in work if we went into it you know thinking in that mindset, this is what I am, as opposed to whatever our job is. and i wondered if you could just say a little bit about...
00:24:32
Speaker
Let's say someone's listening. They could be in an office, council, school, shop, factory. They want to take a first step. You've given some great advice. ah Are there resources or or places that they can find out more to help them do workplace evangelism?
Resources for Workplace Evangelism
00:24:47
Speaker
Yes, yes. and One of the resources I find really helpful is Transform Work. um i have been with we have like some whatsapp group where you have these conversations and also um the business connection um we've got the tribe um event we've got the morning breakfast you know you just be around this environment and interact with fellow believers and then you see yourself you know um climbing up on yeah yeah that's wonderful thank you so much for that we will put links to all of those places you mentioned gideon in the show notes for this program so if anybody's interested in transform work or thrive or business connection all that stuff yeah look at the show notes at the end there'll be links directly through to all of that thank you so much for joining us giddy and that's been really helpful and and encouraging i want to wrap it up with three quotes that come from the lausanne movement website let's listen to this one to start with 90 000 hours this refers to the average amount of time a person spends in work in his or her lifetime as this translates to roughly a third of a person's lifetime The Christian's presence at work presents itself as the most natural and at the same time, most overlooked opportunity to evangelize the world.
00:25:53
Speaker
And Bishop Ephraim Tendoro of the World Evangelical Alliance said, in order to fulfill the Great Commission, every believer needs to be a minister and every workplace, a place of ministry.
00:26:04
Speaker
And then finally, famous quote, Billy Graham said, I believe that one of the next great moves of God is going to be through believers in the workplace.
Reflecting on Workplace Evangelism
00:26:13
Speaker
So this is important stuff. Thank you for being our guide through all of it today, Gideon. It's much appreciated. We value your time. Thank you so much. And thank you, Simon. And goodbye, everybody. We'll see you again in a fortnight.