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A Better Love: Sexual Identity and Sharing Christ (with Adam Curtis)
54 Plays1 hour ago
'A Better Love’ is a new book from Living Out that features a range of people who experience same sex attraction, talking about their experience of encountering God. Today’s guest is one of the contributors, who helps us think through the issues of community, discipleship, acceptance and confusion that we may navigate when sharing our faith with the LGBT+ community.
Adam Curtis is a Curate in Sidcup and oversees evangelism at his church. He loves reading the Bible with non-Christians and Christians alike. He studied his BA in theology at Cardiff University and his MA at Oak Hill College. He is taller than the average door post and enjoys playing the ukulele.
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Transcript
Tension between Jesus' ethics and LGBTQIA+ perspectives
00:00:00
Speaker
sexual ethics Jesus lived out and taught are a point of tension with many today, especially those who are LGBTQIA+. The stories in these pages explore that tension by sharing the experiences of some followers of Jesus.
00:00:15
Speaker
Their minority perspectives are rarely heard today and point to a better love available to all in Christ.
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:32
Speaker
Welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast where we focus in on issues of Christianity and evangelism. I'm Steve Osmond, joined by Simon Wynnum for today's episode. Simon, how are you doing?
00:00:44
Speaker
I'm very well, thank you. Very, very good.
Overview of 'A Better Love' book
00:00:47
Speaker
Well, that quote that you just heard is from the book titled A Better Love, and that is a new book edited by Ed Shaw. And it features a range of people who experience same-sex attraction um and basically talking about their experiences of encountering God in their life. And today's guest I'm very excited to have on is one of those authors, Adam Curtis. Adam,
Adam Curtis on sexuality and the church
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Speaker
thanks so much for joining us. How are you doing?
00:01:12
Speaker
Oh, I'm doing well. Thank you very much. I'm so excited to be here. Very good. Thanks for taking the time to chat to us on PIP Talk today. um Maybe to tee things up, could you just tell us a little bit about who you are?
00:01:24
Speaker
Well, I'm a minister in the Church of England in a little town on the outskirts of London. And I also do some volunteer work with Living Out. Brilliant. Cool. Thank you for, again, taking the time to to chat to us. and We love living out the ministry there and just a great, great resource.
00:01:40
Speaker
um And so we have a ah good range of questions that we're going to pepper you with in our short time together. And I'm going to ask Simon if you'll kick that off for us. yeah Thank you so much, Adam, for joining us. and a sort of general question start us off, which is obviously there are very polarised views on sexuality within the church. Could you give a sense of what those who feel same-sex attraction think about the church and how Christians can engage with them bearing that in mind?
00:02:11
Speaker
Oh, and that's such a, it's going to be a broad answer because it's a, there's a broad group of people. I think some people um would look at the church and just think it's irrelevant. It's old fashioned. It's got nothing to teach me and about my life. Some people look at the church and they're very fearful. They'll consider the church to be a ah place ah where they need to avoid and it's going to be dangerous for them to engage it. Some people look at the church and think they're just hypocrites. They have a lot to say about how,
00:02:37
Speaker
ah Two men should live their lives, and ah particularly their sexual lives and what they do in the bedroom, and yet they do great evils and atrocities themselves. And yet some people also look at the church and say, this is home.
00:02:47
Speaker
This is the place where ah people love me as a brother and sister in Christ, and I'm just so grateful to be be here. And how can we as there as a church and a Christian community, how can we help people move from place where they think it's irrelevant or fearful or hypocritical to actually acknowledging it
Personal story of acceptance in the church
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to be home? well for me There's a story of a friend of mine, which I think says volumes.
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She got invited to go to go to church. She was so attracted. She wouldn't use that language back then, but she probably used the language of being a lesbian back then. But she was invited to go along to church ah by by a friend.
00:03:23
Speaker
she She did. she don't know She didn't know why she agreed to go, but she did. um And as she was sitting in church, she just started to like rage. Nothing was said about sex or sexuality, but she just started to rage at the at the at the vicar. And at the end of the service, she went over to vicar and she just like screamed in his face and said all the things she thought about him and then stormed out.
00:03:43
Speaker
And then the next day she was thinking herself, like, she was just really embarrassed. She was like, my friend invited him me to church and I've just like created this great scene. And then her friend came over to her, didn't judge her, didn't reject her didn't push her away, but like still wanted to be her mate.
00:03:57
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And that was the beginning of a journey of that lady coming to know Jesus Christ herself and moving from a place where the church was fearful to a place where the church started to feel feel like home.
Living Out ministry's stance on sexuality
00:04:10
Speaker
Now, you you mentioned that you're part of the living out um ministry, and that is, I suppose, it takes a minority position, if you will. That always isn't a position that's always heard, i suppose, in the the broader and context of different approaches to just speaking about um the issue today. um What is that position and why do you hold to it?
00:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely a minority position here in in the UK, but i would actually say it's the majority position when we look at church history and and the global church today. Our position is that Jesus teaches that sex is to be found within marriage and that marriage is between one man and one woman, and that is for life.
00:04:54
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And because this is Jesus' teaching, this is actually good for absolutely everyone, and it doesn't matter what your sexual orientation is. The broad and and very oversimplified perception that is out there, which is basically the impression that I think is given by, ah i suppose, many people and the general media, which is you either have to choose between or you have to choose between either your sexuality or being a Christian.
00:05:21
Speaker
that That's it. It's that simple, you know. and What would you say to those who perhaps think that they will have to, if they become a Christian, give a part of their identity or like deny themselves in order to become a Christian?
00:05:34
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I want to
Jesus’ teachings on self-denial and identity
00:05:35
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say that Jesus calls everyone to to deny themselves, take up their cross and follow him. like That call is not unique to the Christian who experiences same-sex attraction. That call is for every single believer.
00:05:48
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I also want to say that Jesus is not asking any of us to lie. And I actually think this is this could be an area where the conservative critique of living out, I think this is where they fall short. Because actually Jesus is not asking anyone to lie about their sexual experiences or their sexual desires. What Jesus is asking is that they would...
00:06:08
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live in the light of those sexual experiences and desires as he calls them to live. He wants them to be honest about them and then he wants them to follow ah him where he's he's he's leading them.
00:06:19
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and I actually find it quite helpful to think about the fact that there are loads of parts of who I am which creates my identity and Jesus has something to say on each of those parts. so I'm a man,
00:06:31
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And actually in my in in our culture, there's different ways that I could live out my masculinity. Let's take an extreme one. I could take the Andrew Tate way of living out my masculinity and assume that because of a man, I should use that to manipulate, control ah others.
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Or I could take the Jesus way of living out my masculinity and use use it as a way of service. I'm white. I could follow the examples of my culture and, and definitely people in history and assume that something about my skin color gives me a sense of like superiority, or I could take the example of Jesus Christ who welcomes all people and who has made all people and values all people and loves all people.
00:07:10
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I then come to my sexuality, like, I'm a man who finds other guys attractive. Well, I could take the example of my culture and just get on a hookup app and start hooking up whenever I can.
00:07:22
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Or I can take the example of Jesus Christ who lived a sexually pure life. um I don't think Jesus Christ wants me to deny any of these elements. I am a man. I am white. I do find guys attractive. But Jesus Christ is speaking into each of those elements of who I am. And he is defining each of those elements so that I can actually live the best possible life right now.
00:07:46
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Hope you're enjoying today's edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. Did you know that Solas doesn't just do this podcast, but has a whole range of exciting ministries and resources that get used all over the country?
00:07:58
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find out more about the ministry of Solas, go to solas-cpc.org. And now, back to the program.
00:08:10
Speaker
You've mentioned identity there, which of course is is is quite a subjective thing, isn't it? And
Christian identity vs. sexual identity debate
00:08:15
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and actually you mentioned Ed Shaw. I should also mention his book, The Plausibility Problem, which I think is absolutely brilliant because it starts with a lot of um pastoral kind of difficult pastoral questions ah you know that people grapple with and all very very ah believable and ones you would encounter quite often. and then and Then it asks, well, what actually, what does the gospel have to say to someone like this? and You read it and you think, oh my goodness, actually, that's going to be quite a challenge pastorally. and That's the point. is it's ah It's a really good book that that speaks into that. so um but Going back to identity, do you
00:08:49
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I think some people would say that ah sometimes sexuality is put as the sort of primary identity. Some people will talk about being gay, some people will talk about being same-sex attracted, et cetera.
00:09:02
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what what What would you say to people that want to sort of communicate to people who see their identity in those terms? um do Do you, for example, talk about the Christian identity superseding them all, or would you advise that actually you start in a different area? Sorry, that's a bit of a broad question. no ah Oh, broad but great. um I define myself primarily as someone who is in Christ.
00:09:31
Speaker
And i think that this is the most joyous and wonderful place ah to be. And one of the reasons why i I don't define myself by my sexuality and actually why I would encourage other people not to define themselves by their sexuality, whether it be complicated or or simple, is actually can that label can that label hold all the pressure and the weight that you are going to put on it?
00:09:57
Speaker
Like, why do people feel like they have to define themselves by them, by their sexual sort of desires? Well, our culture sort of tells us that, okay, define yourself by your sexual desires, like name it and then, and then live it out.
00:10:10
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So if you have a sexual desire, you've got to fulfill that sexual desire. And if you're not fulfilling that sexual desire, our culture is basically saying you're not living a good life. So if you're not regularly having sex in the way that you want to regularly have sex, you're not living a good life. Plus, if you're not regularly having good sex in the way that you want to regularly have good sex, you're not having a good life.
00:10:31
Speaker
But the problem with that is it's just putting just so much pressure like upon that identity label. And what happens? Well, it's let's keep it broad and not just talk about same-sex attraction, but what happens in life if you're not having like a good sex life?
00:10:45
Speaker
What happens if you're single and you just haven't met anyone? What happens if you're divorced? What happens if you're a widow? Like there was a survey done a few years ago about how many single people there were in the UK. And it was like the different surveys will hit something between like, uh, 30 to 40% of the UK are single. So that's 34, 40% of the UK aren't having regular good sex. And then you throw into the equation, all the people in the UK who are in difficult marriages and they're not having regular good sex or someone who's married to someone who's got disabilities. They're not having regular good sex.
00:11:17
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And suddenly our culture, because it's putting all this weight on like sexuality is your identity, our culture is crushing all those people who aren't having regular good sex because our culture is saying you're not actually living life to the full.
00:11:29
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Whereas when we come to Jesus Christ and if we make him our our identity, well, what does Jesus do? Well, Jesus enters down into the muck and the filth and the shame of our lives and lifts us up and makes us into a son or daughter of the father in heaven.
00:11:44
Speaker
That is a much better place to build your identity, to build your identity, knowing that you're chosen and you're loved, knowing that you're forgiven. Oh, I'd much rather have that identity than an identity, which is telling me to constantly relentlessly endlessly chase after the next sexual thrill that's a that's a great answer so it's so freeing i mean that's i suppose what we want to be um we want to be showing people that the true the freedom that comes when you actually come to truly um encounter jesus christ right um and so that makes me think maybe more on a slightly more practical level um i do quite a bit of
00:12:20
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ah work out on university campuses and sexuality as a question comes up very often.
Language and labels in evangelism
00:12:25
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And I find that I sometimes struggle to figure out what kind of language to be using. If I'm trying to reach people and be sensitive and I want them to see see Christ and not let my language be a barrier, um maybe from from your perspective, you know, what kind of...
00:12:41
Speaker
language or or labels should we be using mean gay, queer, non-binary, pansexual, um LGBT+, LGBTQIA+, you know, we don't offend people with language and let make that be a barrier. um any um yeah Any instruction and wisdom to offer us in that?
00:13:01
Speaker
I often just use the language which people themselves are ah using. um I think in a culture which is ah is is obsessed unhelpfully with language, I think if I get obsessed by language as well, it just does create a barrier.
00:13:15
Speaker
um So I'll use the language which people themselves are using. I consider this to be a discipleship point rather than necessarily ah an evangelism point. I would say that within someone coming to know the Lord Jesus Christ and being discipled, I'd want them to hold less firmly to that language around sexuality. ah However, it's a discipleship point, not an evangelism point. um So I'd use the language that people themselves use ah If I'm a talking about myself, then i like to say that yeah I'm someone who experiences same satisfaction or I'm a guy who fancies other guys. I like to talk about what I experienced rather than try and give myself a label. But I also know that there's other Christians like my friend David Bennett, who's a fantastic guy and a fantastic evangelist. And he would use language differently and he'd describe himself as gay. And I have so much respect for him in that. yeah.
00:14:10
Speaker
I think different Christians will land differently on this on this question, but I think the primary thing to say in the context of evangelism is, ah yeah, let's take people where they're at and where they're at, let's lead people to Jesus.
00:14:24
Speaker
Great. Thank you. and I actually know David Bennett as well. he He actually lives not too far from me, so I sometimes bump into him. and To my embarrassment, I recently received an invite to his graduation and it it was in my spam filter and I think it was three years old. I hadn't seen it so that that didn't work out very well so i sent a very profuse uh apology but um i wondered mean you've already mentioned one example could you perhaps share another example of from the book of someone coming to faith and who perhaps has a different sexual identity because i think some of us wonder you know actually does this happen much and then one of the striking things about the book is actually that it does cover many different stories. i wondered if you could perhaps I know these are long stories of people, but perhaps you could summarize perhaps a different one for us so that we can get a sense of the kinds of things and the ways that God is working.
00:15:14
Speaker
Oh, yeah. It's one of the reasons I love this book. It's a book which just makes your heart sing as you read story after story after story of men and women who wrestle with their sexuality and their faith, and you choose Jesus again and again. And each of these people, like the non-Christian world, doesn't doesn't believe that they exist. And the liberals were...
00:15:32
Speaker
Christian world thinks that they shouldn't exist. And yet here they are bravely living for Christ. It is just an encouragement for me. He's a believer, but also i just think such a fantastic evangelistic resource so that when we have those difficult conversations with people about faith and sexuality, we can, we can hand them the book as well and say, people are living it out.
00:15:51
Speaker
ah Let me tell you a story about a great friend of mine called called Catherine, whose story is in the book about love. um Catherine didn't grow up in a Christian home. She entered into a lesbian relationship. She was in that lesbian relationship, I think it was for three years.
00:16:05
Speaker
um And within the context of that lesbian relationship, she actually started to meet people who were Christians. And he started to tell her something about Jesus Christ. That relationship ended and Catherine moved on with her life and unbelievably, tragically, a ah ah good friend of hers died.
00:16:22
Speaker
And um dealing with that that grief ah was very, very hard. But the the family of the friend who died were a Christian family and they spoke about Jesus to her.
00:16:33
Speaker
She then continued to to move on with life as she was sort processing this grief. And in the midst of processing this grief, she didn't know where to turn. a secular world had no answers to the questions of death.
00:16:45
Speaker
And so she turned in prayer to to Jesus. who She didn't know and didn't understand. And in turning to Jesus, ah she experienced a joy and a peace which was just transcended understanding. She was then introduced to ever-Christians, and these Christians took along to church and told her the gospel.
00:17:03
Speaker
um And she came to acknowledge Jesus Christ as her her Savior and Lord. And it was a few years after acknowledging Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord that she started to be honest with with people about her faith and about her sexuality.
00:17:15
Speaker
and And she was scared that she was going to experience rejection. But instead of experiencing rejection, she experienced people who were willing to wrestle this through with her and and work this through with her.
00:17:26
Speaker
um And her story is just one of many story stories of just the amazing grace that that God has shown people. And that's brilliant. And it is. I mean, I've um ah been going through the book and just such wonderful stories. So it's so encouraging just to see how God is at work.
00:17:43
Speaker
um But I think so much of that is the starting point. Like how do those conversations start? Like, as you mentioned, your friend there, there was some, she she knew someone and there was ah something,
00:17:54
Speaker
I'm going on. She had to hear about Jesus. Right.
Gospel conversations with LGBTQIA+ individuals
00:17:58
Speaker
um And I think increasingly we people have friends, family members um who would say that they're same sex attracted. um And so what would you recommend as a good way to just start opening up that gospel conversation with, with those people?
00:18:13
Speaker
Well, I can think of two examples, a time when it went well and a time when it went badly. And I think both of them are teaching me the same point. So a time where it went badly was um with a guy who I didn't know particularly well, who was coming along to my church. He had something in the church service, very small thing, which was gave him the impression that ah our church had a traditional view on marriage and sexuality. And so afterwards he came to talk to me about it.
00:18:42
Speaker
um And he was a gay guy himself. And he, with the conversation was civil and was polite and it was fine, but eventually he just stopped coming to to church really on the basis of that.
00:18:52
Speaker
And I look at that and I'm like, well, I didn't know him. We hadn't hadn't shown him hospitality and welcomed into my home. Like one of the most important conversations I had with him was also one of the first conversations I had with him.
00:19:08
Speaker
Then I think of ah another example where things went better, where a friend who I knew, I'd shown love to, um had deep conversations with and walked through some of life with, when we had a deep conversation about faith and sexuality, and he's got a complicated sexuality himself,
00:19:23
Speaker
um at first he really really angry really wanted to distance himself from me did distance himself from me but then our friendship recovered and we're still mates now many many years later and well what's the big difference between those those two stories well I think it was the love which I showed those guys I think one of them I'd actually shown love and hospitality to the other one i I didn't really know um and so I think for me i think that's taught me that the first thing we need to do is to be in a context where we're known as ah showing people love.
00:19:56
Speaker
So that when we have those hard conversations, people are presented with um a paradox which they just don't understand. It's like, whoa, this thing this man is saying is absolutely horrible, but wow, his life is really loving and kind.
00:20:09
Speaker
That's the paradox I want everyone to to to see because there is, I wish there was, but there's just not an easy way of talking about faith and sexuality, which our culture is going to immediately understand.
00:20:20
Speaker
So they need to be confronted with that paradox. And the second thing I seen could say is that I've searched for like the amazing answer, the answer which wins everyone round. It doesn't exist. And now, and I'm not saying this is necessarily the right thing to do, but this is what I do. Now I try and say it as simply and as clearly as I can.
00:20:41
Speaker
So someone asked me, oh, you think about gay marriage? And I'll say, oh, well, Jesus teaches us that marriage is between one man and one woman. Or someone says to me, um now I could never be a Christian because I'm gay. And I say, oh, well, there's gay people in my church.
00:20:57
Speaker
and I'm not trying to say everything. I am trying to say something. The something I'm trying to say, i want to keep it simple so that they hear that and they remember that, rather than they hear my waffle, or they hear my poorly chosen words, or they hear me giving them a lecture.
00:21:13
Speaker
Reminds me of Os Guinness actually saying, if you speak the truth without love, you you lose people. I wondered if I could just ask one final question there. Obviously, Christians do want to love people um in the LGBTQ community. Where are we? Would you draw the line where, sort of for example, if you're invited to a gay wedding, for example, i know i know I think it's a very British thing. We we obviously we very much worry about whether we insult someone or whether we do the right thing by attending, et cetera. Do you have any just quick advice on on those sorts of areas? As you say, you want to love people.
00:21:49
Speaker
Oh, that is like the thorniest, hardest question. And that's the one you're finishing on. Disgraceful. Sorry. okay um I think different Christians will land differently and different members of the Living Out team land differently on this.
00:22:03
Speaker
um I'd say on one level, I'd say let's make it less stressful. Let's just calm the whole situation down. I remember a summer where I was invited to 10 weddings. I couldn't go to 10 weddings. I didn't want to go to 10 weddings. and Yeah. And yet I had to choose between the weddings I was going to go to and the weddings I weren't i wasn't going to go to.
00:22:21
Speaker
I'm still friends with some of the people whose weddings I didn't go to. And what I actually find remarkable is some of the people whose weddings I did go to, actually see i never see them anymore. Going to a wedding is not the the be all and end all of a friendship. So on one level, let's just calm the whole thing down.
00:22:37
Speaker
ah On another level, I think we've got to ask ourselves some questions. oh What is this going to communicate to the person? um If I go and particularly, what is it going to communicate to them about, about Christ? And maybe the second question is what would this do to the the state of our relationship? So for me, for that first question, it's really easy. I'm a minister. If I go to a same sex attracted wedding, they think it's an endorsement and they don't think it's just an endorsement from me because people in our culture have a weird view of ministers. They actually think that God will think it's okay.
00:23:09
Speaker
So actually I know full well that if I go along, that's all people are going to think. that It doesn't matter what i say before or after, or even then, that's all people are going to think. um Secondly then, okay, so what is this going to do to the state of our relationship?
00:23:24
Speaker
Well, this is where I think people are just going to have to land differently. And I think if it's a son or daughter, I think that's going to be very different to if it's a friend or a cousin. um And so I think each person's have to work that through themselves.
00:23:39
Speaker
Great. Well, thank you so much, Adam. Really appreciate
Further resources on Living Out ministry and 'A Better Love'
00:23:42
Speaker
you sharing the wisdom. um I did say a final question, but where can we find out a little bit more about Living Out and about the book? Could you just share that?
00:23:52
Speaker
Well, if you go to livingout.org, you can hear stories, engage with podcasts, ah testimonies, videos, there's youth courses. There's just so much great stuff. And a better love, this amazing new resource we've just produced is available from The Good Book Company.
00:24:07
Speaker
Great. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Adam, again, apart from the fact of thinking I need a better social life, because I i don't think I've ever been invited attend weddings in one summer. and But just I think one of the things that really strikes me is actually Christians are afraid to say anything on this topic. And I think that's why it's so important to have ah resources like the book and living out just to help us in in how we communicate, not least because it can seem rich coming from someone who doesn't um you know grapple with these issues personally, as in in in terms of having different sexualities. As I say, I've known former colleagues grappled with it. I've been amazed by how much flack they've received, just hugely difficult and challenging um for them personally. So and thank you so much for helping us navigate this. And actually what has really shined out through all of them actually is just a very strong sense of experience in living out in God's love. And of course that applies to all of us. So
00:25:03
Speaker
um Do look out for the book, A Better Love, edited by Ed Shaw. One reviewer described it as tear-jerkingly powerful and said she simply couldn't put it down. And actually, she said she was really struck by the radical beauty of Jesus that came through, the joy, hope and peace that the world can't offer.
00:25:20
Speaker
and And I think that's just quite a nice point to finish on It's just remembering actually that life can be very difficult. And of course it is for many, many of us, but actually God offers us something that is both true and life transforming.
00:25:32
Speaker
And of course that offer is available to all of us, no matter who we are. And I liked your point about and you saying actually showing God's love to people and really um focusing on that as the sort of primary way in which we communicate with people.
00:25:47
Speaker
So thank you, Adam, for sharing with us and giving us some really helpful advice in how we engage with topics like this and the people around us. Thank you, Steve, for being here and for all of you for listening to another episode of pep Talk from Solas. Do tune in again in a couple of weeks for another inspiring guest. Thank you so much for listening.