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Journeys to Finding Jesus (with Phil Knox)
272 Plays22 days ago
There have been several indications recently that Christianity is on the rise in Britain, particularly in younger demographics. But why and how are people coming to faith? The Finding Jesus report examines those questions. The answers give us encouragement and challenges as we see the different journeys people take to find Jesus.
Phil Knox is an evangelist and missiologist at the Evangelical Alliance. He is passionate about making Jesus known and the power of friendship. He loves learning and has degrees in law and mission and evangelism. Phil is married to Dani and they have two sons, Caleb and Jos. He is an avid runner, enthusiastic waterskier and once broke the world record for the longest five-a-side football match. He is also an award winning performance poet and author of Story Bearer and The Best of Friends.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Well, hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solask. I'm Simon Wenham, your co-host, and I'm delighted to be joined by my co-presenter Gavin Matthews. Gavin, how are you doing?
00:00:23
Speaker
I'm doing very well, Simon. Thank you for having me again. are you doing? Very
Insights from the Keswick Convention
00:00:27
Speaker
well, thank you. Yeah, well, we we last saw even just just last week, actually, we've been together at the Keswick Convention, which was lovely to see you and Andy in action ah in the mixing shed, which sounds like a small shed, but it was actually a large venue with quite a few people.
00:00:41
Speaker
and One thing that struck me, and Gavin, about you is that you always seem to be up a mountain, whether it's ah cycling or running. and And I've been meaning to ask you for some time, but what's the longest you've ever cycled for in one day?
00:00:55
Speaker
152 miles is my i daily, but that was a long time ago. That was when I was young and fit. Not old and fat. Fantastic. And how long was that? How long how much cycling was that in one go?
00:01:07
Speaker
As in, was that a few, presumably all day was that? All day, all day. Yeah, that was a long day that was, it was a cracking day out, yeah. Fantastic.
Rising Interest in Spirituality
00:01:15
Speaker
Well, Cycling is not our topic today, of course. The context of today's pep talk is that there have been a number of encouraging studies recently showing people coming to faith or at least being more interested in spirituality or possibly attending church, including ah in young people ah too. Yeah.
00:01:32
Speaker
And this has been termed a quiet revival by the Bible Society. They did a large survey. there have been a number of other studies as well that seem to have painted a similar picture.
00:01:43
Speaker
And one of those is the Finding Jesus report from the Evangelical Alliance. One interesting part of that is showing the sort of pathway through which people often come to faith.
Pathways to Faith with Phil Knox
00:01:53
Speaker
And so I'm delighted that we have Phil Knox, an evangelist and missiologist from the EA, to help unpack that for us. So thank you so much, Phil, for being with us. How are you?
00:02:02
Speaker
Simon, Gavin, great to be with you. Yeah, I'm doing well. Recovering from knee surgery. So however far Gavin can cycle these days, it's going to be further than me at the moment. but ah But hoping to be back on the roads sometime soon.
00:02:15
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you. And and we I should say, I should apologise. It was actually... ah five years ago that you were last on. Sorry, we haven't had you back on the Pep Talk podcast ah more recently, but you were speaking about your book, The Story Bearer. So it's great to have you back with us.
00:02:29
Speaker
But I should perhaps ask you, I hear you all you ah were a runner, obviously, before the surgery. what' What's the furthest you've run, if you don't mind me asking? Well, one of my bucket list things has been i ran ah a thousand miles in a year once. So that's been that that did I did that kind of the second year of the pandemic, ah deciding as I travel so much was at home and I kind of got through the pandemic. I was also working from home a lot more. So I was eating more.
00:02:52
Speaker
So I decided I could either run more or eat less. I decided to run more. So I got through a thousand miles in a year. So that's my kind of my like one one bucket list thing tipped off. I was expecting 26 miles or something. So that's pretty impressive. But thank you for being with us.
00:03:08
Speaker
Now, Simon mentioned um the quiet rival revival and finding Jesus. Before we get into your um research with finding Jesus, what's your take on the so-called quiet revival?
Quiet Revival and Religious Trends
00:03:19
Speaker
you hear different stories, you know, Some people are saying it's amazing, it's revival.
00:03:22
Speaker
Humanist UK was saying, i oh, it's a flawed data set. Some of my more conservative, skeptical friends are saying, oh, church becoming trendy is different. that and That's not a wave of repentance. That's not real revival. We're seeing some interesting things around the country. You're in touch with all kinds of churches right across the spectrum.
00:03:38
Speaker
What are you seeing on the ground? What's your take on on the so-called quiet revival? Yeah, I think something's happening. I think if if this is revival, I'm a little bit disappointed because I don't think it's quite the scale or the depth of what I would hope for.
00:03:52
Speaker
But I think it's not just one piece of research. It's four but four big bits of research. So this started in January with one poll, which interviewed 10,000 people, which found that Gen Z were half as likely to be as atheists as their parents or grandparents.
00:04:06
Speaker
Then we got the ah ah report that Bible sales had increased by 87% between 2019 and 2024. Then there was some research by Cervantes Comres, which talked to yeah UK students, which found that of all UK students, 29% read the Bible at least once a week. 33% of non-Christian students would be up for reading the Bible with a Christian friend if that Christian friend invited them to do so.
00:04:29
Speaker
And then we got the Quiet Revival report, which found that 2 million more people are going to church than were six years ago. So I think... All of these are marker points that something is happening. So I think we should be encouraged by that.
00:04:42
Speaker
and And I think from my own personal experience, I think i we i think there is something that ah that that I'm seeing and have been seeing as I've been preaching ah around the UK over the last few years. And and that's very much in line with that.
00:04:55
Speaker
And then when we come on to finding Jesus, when we did this bit of research, we wanted 100 people who'd become Christians as adults in the last five years.
Finding Jesus Report Highlights Revival
00:05:02
Speaker
And we found almost 300 people. All of that for me he is pointing towards something happening.
00:05:08
Speaker
As I say, we would love it to be deeper. We would love more. I think the quiet revival needs to become noisier, but it's a great start. and Fantastic. say Thank you. And you mentioned your your report, the Finding Jesus report.
00:05:19
Speaker
ah One thing that struck me is you said you wept with joy when you first read it. um I wondered if you could just, we'll go into a little bit of the detail in due course, but wondered if you'd give us sort of ah an overall sense of why why that was the case. Yeah.
00:05:32
Speaker
Yes, I'll paint the picture for you. So we we did this report. We got lots of stories. We basically found 280 adults who'd become Christians in the last five years as adults to tell us their story. like So a bare research like this hasn't been done for 30 years in terms of how people are coming to faith.
00:05:49
Speaker
And so i kind of was the co-project lead. We journeyed with the researchers for over a year to get to this point. And I got the report on a kind of Tuesday morning in my inbox. I was on a train from Birmingham New Street, where I live, to London, ah surrounded by business people on this kind of commuter train. And I just read the stories of what people, people's encounter with Jesus, the difference that I'd made and their journey along the way. And it was just so moving. I mean, as followers of Jesus, as evangelists, this is what we live for, right? And so I just, I think everyone else thought i was having a kind of mini breakdown.
00:06:23
Speaker
I was, it was actually just joyful tears as, as I just read some of the stories of what God was doing and and was blown away by that. In the trajectory, all these stories of people coming to faith, part of the most interesting thing I thought in the research was what starts their search?
00:06:38
Speaker
You know, go back to the very beginning. What triggers somebody on you know, out of all these, these people that were interviewed in depth, to begin a search which ultimately leads to Jesus.
00:06:49
Speaker
And what does that teach us in terms of our own, not just evangelism, but what I suppose you might call pre-evangelism, you know, priming the pump, arming the conversation that will go in a gospel-shaped direction?
00:07:00
Speaker
Where does it start? What triggers people's search typically today?
Influence of Life Struggles on Faith Exploration
00:07:05
Speaker
Yeah, great. So we wanted to know in the research what happened before the point of conversion, what was happening the point where people decided they were going to follow Jesus and what happened since. But the majority of the report covers kind of that that those early stages of why people begin to explore.
00:07:20
Speaker
and And we found, so we asked the question, what prompted you to begin exploring the Christian faith? And the top kind of three answers which form the first initial cluster were needing help with life, looking for meaning and a difficult and painful experience.
00:07:35
Speaker
So you've got people who I think there's something of the perma crisis, something of the meaning crisis that's kind of that's kind of helping encouraging people to ask existential questions, but also people the church meeting people's need, whether that be through food banks or toddler groups or something. But I think those two things together are instigating initial interest.
00:07:56
Speaker
That's the kind of first big thing. The second big thing was the impact of faith on someone they knew, Christian speaking to them about their faith, and the actions of Christians towards them. So Christians are doing a really good job.
00:08:10
Speaker
yeah and when we' ah When we're on a podcast talking about inspiring people to talk to their friends about Jesus, we're doing a really good job actually, because that in the data tells us that's leading many people to come to faith.
00:08:22
Speaker
And then the final theme, which is fascinating, but I wasn't surprised by because of the stories I've heard over the last few years, is the final one's a spiritual experience. So a lot of people are having dreams. They're feeling supernaturally drawn into church.
00:08:37
Speaker
Something's happening. God's on the move in a way that I think kind of... ah and encourages us to to see the rest of the research in light of this. and and That spiritual experience theme runs throughout the research as people are as people are exploring faith at the point of conversion.
00:08:55
Speaker
and You know how you we've heard for years of you know people often in Islamic countries having dreams about a man in white? I think that's happening increasingly in a kind of Western post-Christian
Perma Crisis and Spiritual Curiosity
00:09:05
Speaker
context.
00:09:05
Speaker
People are having something they can't explain where they're told that science and secularism can explain everything. And that's leading them to begin a journey of spiritual exploration. It's fascinating. Can just have a quick follow up on that? um You dropped the word perma crisis in.
00:09:20
Speaker
Can you just tell him everyone, what do you mean by perma crisis? Thank you for clarifying my language. Permacrisis was the Collins Dictionary word of the year for 2022. It refers to an extended period of instability or insecurity brought on by a series of catastrophic events. So feels for many like we've lurched from a global pandemic to a cost of living crisis, threat of World War III, political and economic turmoil.
00:09:45
Speaker
And I think that's some of that. I think we feel the weight of that in our news feeds and our hearts. And some of that is drawing drawing people to Jesus. That's an interesting point, actually, you because Andy was speaking on our podcast ah last week about his book, The Atheists Who Didn't Exist. And actually, one of his points was, actually, there's a lot we live in a lot less certain world and and many people are are questioning a lot more.
00:10:10
Speaker
Just a quick reminder that Andy Bannister's book, How to Talk About Jesus Without Looking Like an Idiot, is helping loads of Christians all over the country to get a bit better at sharing their faith. It's packed full of terrible jokes and wonderful wisdom to help you just get a bit more able to share your faith in Jesus with friends, colleagues, neighbors, and family members. If you'd like to get a copy, come over to our website, solas, S-O-L-A-S-C-P-C.org, and follow the links from there. And now, back to the program.
00:10:41
Speaker
I was struck by, in particular, that this point about spiritual experiences. and Would these be confined to people that are, the the you mentioned, obviously, people from Islam often have, are obviously more attuned to spiritual things because of following a religion.
00:10:57
Speaker
Was that your experience here? Because I think many people might be surprised that people are having spiritual experiences um unless they have a sort of background that is open to that. And was that the case or is that actually not the case?
00:11:09
Speaker
I mean, first of all, just some some of the data on where people came from. So 38% of people who filled in this filled in our research were from a werere cultural Christians but not preaching.
00:11:22
Speaker
Then you've got 21% who say they're spiritual or not but not religious. 12% were atheists, 7% were from other religions. But I think, I can't remember exactly, but I think we did, when when you look at the segmentation of the data, I think the spiritual experiences were actually higher for people who didn't have a kind of Christian, cultural Christian background.
00:11:44
Speaker
um But interestingly, and just to point, just put a point on that offer for encouragement, 72% of people had some previous connection with Christianity. And I think that's really encouraging for those of us who've had, you know, for people with children, parents or grandparents of people who they're desperate to see come back to faith.
00:12:01
Speaker
um People who, you know, they were working in Christian schools or people who went to youth group with people or people who have had you know been youth ministers or Sunday school teachers. And that and those people have walked away from faith.
00:12:14
Speaker
An awful lot of people, I think, are coming back to faith. And I think some of this kind of some of this quiet revival is happening because people are returning back to something.
Role of Friendships in Guiding Faith
00:12:22
Speaker
um and and And that's, I think, a significant part of the story.
00:12:27
Speaker
So thank you to all those Sunday school teachers out there who have been doing a good work with very little thanks for many, many years and not seeing the fruit sometimes until maybe 30 or 40 years later. So you are appreciated. All you Sunday school teachers, keep going. and You mentioned that one of the things that moved you to tears on the train from Birmingham to London was some of the stories of some of the people who who had come to faith in g Christ.
00:12:47
Speaker
Was there one particular that kind of stands out for you as ah as a story that kind of epitomizes something that's going on? Yeah, well, let me i mean let me let me yeah let me just kind of, I guess, kind of... um ah ah Yeah, I'll tell you few of those. so So first of all, there was this guy called Donnie who did the research, who was ah close to taking his own life.
00:13:07
Speaker
He was um smoking an illegal substance in his garden sheds on the edge of suicide and and just felt the urge to pick up the Bible. And ah that and from that from that point, he picks up the Bible and um and then I'm trying to find his quote. So Donnie said this. This was Donnie's quote.
00:13:28
Speaker
He says, He started reading the entire Bible. By the time I was at Exodus, I'm a full believer. By the time I got to the New Testament, it just broke my heart. When it got to the true story of Jesus, I was a broken man and just an absolute love for what he's done. yeah they say Jesus just intervenes in Donnie's life and he's completely turned around.
00:13:48
Speaker
and There was another story from a guy called Nabil, who ah had ah lived in a flat with no central heating. And he said every night he would go to bed cold. But the night he gave his life to Jesus, he said he didn't even need a blanket because he had such a warmth that filled his heart and the whole of his body.
00:14:05
Speaker
And you're just like... God's on the move. You know, the the gospel works and and and often without any human intervention, God is intervening in people's lives. But at the same time, evangelism is a partnership. And this research speaks into who helps people along the way, which is not the professional Christians. It's friends, neighbours, colleagues and family members.
00:14:26
Speaker
And we all get to play a part in in what God's doing. And that paints a bit of the picture, I think, of what's happening at the moment. Thank you. And yes, as you say, it's important we to we see that God is on the move and and we are part of that. And I suppose that's that's one of the interesting parts of this and study, isn't it, is is the sort of interaction of of what we can do and what the church is doing well. And ah suppose one thing that's interesting, you've said that people are coming to church for stability, worth, meaning, value, purpose, identity, et cetera.
00:14:57
Speaker
Do you have any advice for then how you then point people towards Jesus and where, for example, does the question of sin and forgiveness come in in that picture? So that's quite a lot of questions, but I wonder if have any thoughts on that. Yeah, I could address couple of aspects of that.
00:15:11
Speaker
The first is... in terms of what we do, I think something's changed in terms of the perception of church and where people are at when they start coming to church.
00:15:24
Speaker
So one of the questions we asked was, which of these helped as you explored the Christian faith? And the top answer by some distance was attending church in person. So the thing that's helping people most on the journey is going to church in person. so So not only well done Sunday school teachers, but well done church. And and I think what I was on a really interesting call where we were exploring some of this. And someone said, so what what you're saying is we don't need another pub quiz.
00:15:51
Speaker
And it's ah as yeah it's really interesting. As I talk to church leaders, people are coming a lot more ready for the good news and a call to repentance and and a call to become Christians than they were previously when you kind of needed to do a lot more groundwork in terms of things like Alpha, in terms of kind of you and social events, et cetera. And I think some of that all those things are really good. And those things feature in the research as well.
00:16:15
Speaker
but church is doing a really good job. I think then when it comes to kind of the aspects of the gospel, we also ask that question as well. And so based on some work by Tim Keller, who looks at some of the big reasons why people choose to follow Jesus, we asked people, what drew you most to the gospel?
00:16:31
Speaker
And what what kind of, you know you know, there's some beautiful language. Lauren Singlehurst talks about the gospel is like a diamond, which you can turn and see its beauty from lots of different angles. Well, So we asked kind of, you know what drew you most to the gospel? The top answer was that Jesus loves me.
00:16:45
Speaker
Second, that I could have hope and purpose for my life and beyond. Third, that the gospel is true, beautiful and profound. Fourth, that Jesus could help me with my problems and pain. Fifth, that i couldn't I would no longer fear death and judgment.
00:16:59
Speaker
Sixth, that my shame and burdens could be lifted. And so I think people are approaching the good news from lots of different angles. But I think also the breadth of answers, and actually those answers were not, there was only kind of 20% between each of all all those answers.
00:17:13
Speaker
Church is doing a really good job at presenting the breadth of the gospel, but also people are are being invited to turn, to repent, to believe.
00:17:23
Speaker
um and and And churches, evangelists, ordinary people are doing a really good job at helping people lot along that journey. My perception is that, and you might correct on this, but what my perception is that the average person today is a lot more open to spiritual things and open to considering Jesus than they were maybe 10 years ago.
00:17:43
Speaker
But we are painting on a canvas of very little biblical knowledge. very few Christian assumptions of worldview. What can we do as the church to make the church a good landing place for people who are coming in who are open, but don't really have a good grasp of a biblical worldview? What what do we need to do as church to make it a good place to land for people?
Linking Compassion Ministries with Evangelism
00:18:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think the first thing I would advise all churches to do is think about how well connected our compassion ministries are with sharing faith.
00:18:14
Speaker
So if if we're right that where people enter, the the reason they're interested in faith is they're struggling with life, they're searching for meaning. Often their access point will be toddler group,
00:18:28
Speaker
street pastors, food bank, there'll be an access point because church is doing an incredible job to meet people's needs. We as the Evangelical Alliance did some research earlier this year where we asked churches, how well connected are your compassion ministries and sharing faith?
00:18:42
Speaker
And just 25% said they had a really good joined upness between those two things. And so I would ask every every one of us are attached to a church, how well connected are those ministries?
00:18:54
Speaker
I think if we made sure every single person who came to a food bank, toddler group, was invited onto Christianity Explored Alpha to church on a Sunday, I think that would be a really fruitful place.
00:19:07
Speaker
So i think i think that I think that's the first thing. I think the second thing is, I think this gives us real ah hope and real impetus as everyday Christians to have good conversations with people.
00:19:19
Speaker
So when we think about that second big theme of why people began to explore the Christian faith, a Christian spoke to me about their faith, the actions of a Christian towards me. Then when we look at who helped most along the journey, 35% said a person or people from church other than lee other other than the leader. 33% said a close friend.
00:19:38
Speaker
So friends, neighbours, colleagues, family members are helping most along the way. And then we kind of ask people, what what did they do? And they said they just spent time with me, patient discussion, They saw the authenticity of their lives and and the hospitality and practical kindness. And I think that friendship piece is not going away.
00:19:58
Speaker
That if we we need to be encouraging all of us as as as Christians to be just really good friends, to maybe up the ante when it comes to invitation, conversation, asking questions of people's faith, have another go because in this environment that people might be more open.
00:20:14
Speaker
But whatever whatever we can be doing to equip and inspire people to share their faith with their friends and books like Andy's and others are just so helpful in that regard. And so so I think that, ah but recognizing that if if our friends are going to come to faith, we're going to play the most significant role.
Power of Prayer in Evangelism
00:20:29
Speaker
and the But the third thing I would say, because because the role of spiritual experience runs throughout, Prayer, you can't separate prayer and evangelism. However much we're praying for our non-Christian friends, let's intensify that a bit.
00:20:42
Speaker
Within our churches, when we think about kind of the the the intercessory prayers in our church, we pray for all kinds of things, you know, the sick and for people are having struggles in lives. But let's also pray in ourul culturally within our churches for people who don't yet know Jesus, because I think there's a connection between those spiritual experiences and and our prayers.
00:21:02
Speaker
Absolutely. And one thing that struck me is is you make 10 recommendations. And it was quite ah pleasing to see actually quite a lot of them aligned with Solas's work in the sense of remembering the gospel is relevant to all, creating spaces for questions, encouraging ordinary Christians to make a difference, equipping new Christians for mission.
00:21:19
Speaker
ah One thing that struck me, which you've just mentioned, is is the time aspect, that sort of spending time with people. I I know people have different things that are precious to them, but i must say I've been quite struck by many people I've met who have become Christians who have said actually people have given them their time and a lot of it and ah you know in a time when many many of us feel like we're time poor and perhaps haven't got time because we live in this sort of busy world.
00:21:45
Speaker
I wondered if you could give a little bit of advice on that. and what What can we do to make space for people and and I guess keep our spiritual antenna sort of honed in on on opportunities? Yeah.
00:21:56
Speaker
Yeah, and this leans in to some of my other work around friendship. ah yeah i really believe we're living in a loneliness epidemic. and And I think actually, you know that's that's everyone. you know and um what And some of the work I've been doing over the last couple of years has been trying to raise the volume in the church around
Addressing Loneliness to Enhance Evangelism
00:22:13
Speaker
friendship. And so I think when we when we offer to spend time with people, people are often really, that's so that's that's most people's love language, I think, and kind in terms of kind of especially in terms of friendship.
00:22:25
Speaker
and And I think we need to be really clear. We don't become friends with people to convert them, but we do recognize that it's through relationship that God so often does his be best work. And I think, i but I think the other thing that, especially in the perma crisis that we've talked about, I think a lot, ah another thing that we need to lean into and encourage ourselves in is around depth of friendship.
00:22:45
Speaker
So I think we can, we need to learn some of the skills about asking really good questions that go beyond, And how our sports team are doing and and what the weather's like and just what's happening at work.
00:22:57
Speaker
And actually talk about kind of the what people love and what people fear and what people hope for. And and I think when when we ask some of those questions, we we then begin to to engage people on a much more...
00:23:08
Speaker
a deeper spiritual level um and see where God's already at work in their lives. And I think i think the the great encouragement of this report, but also theologically, God is already at work in every person's life. We just have the opportunity to as as good news people to join in.
00:23:24
Speaker
And so I think there's something about the ah the the the the skill and the art of a witness and an evangelist to to hear and see where God's already at work and and then and then kind of kind of communicate the good news as to how good news fits in with that piece of where God's at work already.
00:23:44
Speaker
And your book, The Best of Friends, came out with IVP in 2023. That's available in your local Christian bookshop and all sorts of places online. Your latest project, the the Fighting Jesus Report, where can people get hold of that?
00:23:56
Speaker
How can they sort of examine it and get a good good eyeballs on it for themselves? Where can they go for that? So if you findingjesus.co.uk, that's the easiest place. It'll redirect you to the page within the Evangelical Alliance website.
00:24:09
Speaker
And on there, you can see the whole of the report for free, ah all 50 or so pages of it. and And you can see all of the graphs and stats of ah how people are coming to faith, what happens at the point in conversion, how people could are struggling and benefiting from discipleship. and stuff since.
00:24:26
Speaker
There's also on that page a half an hour video of myself and a colleague ah unpacking the research, telling some of those stories ah that you can see as well. And then later this year, we will be releasing some of the segmented data for how young people come to faith, how old people come to faith, those from a lower income background, those from a completely non-faith background,
00:24:47
Speaker
um and And so you'll be able to see some of the kind of the the nuances in how different ages are coming to faith. And we really hope that will be useful for those who lead kind of demographic specific ministries.
00:24:59
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you. Great. And you've you've left us with a a cliffhanger there as well, so we can look forward to hearing more. But thank thank you so much for for sharing that with us. It's it's really, really encouraging and to to hear your advice on faith.
00:25:14
Speaker
you know, that giving us sort of ideas and actually seeing sort of tangible evidence of, of you know, people's stories and what is happening. So, yeah, thank you so much for being with us. It's really ah helpful to hear that. And we do encourage everyone to have a look at the report because it yeah sounds absolutely fascinating. And I've really enjoyed looking at both the stories and the practical advice. So thank you so much.
00:25:35
Speaker
Thanks, Phil. Thanks being with Phil. Much appreciated. You know, the show notes for this said, don't worry, there won't be any dead air time with Phil. That was really fascinating, really engaging and interesting. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you, Simon. And we'll see the rest of you in a fortnight's time for another episode of Pep Talk, when, as ever, we will be talking about sharing Jesus with a world that needs him.
00:25:56
Speaker
Thank you for listening. See you next time. And goodbye.