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Witnessing on the Ward (with Kelvin Burke)
221 Plays8 days ago
Many Christians will be familiar with the practice of praying for and visiting those from their own church who might be sick in hospital. But the role of the hospital (or hospice) chaplain can allow for ministry to all kinds of people. What are the challenges, joys, and opportunities experienced in this unique role? This time on PEP Talk, we hear from a hospital chaplain who himself spent eight months in hospital after a car crash which left him permanently paraplegic.
Kelvin Burke is the author of "Lake of Tears", a compelling book with a unique application of God’s partaking in the face of suffering. Kelvin is an Anglican minister and Healthcare Chaplain. After his time as Priest-in-charge at St Andrew’s Wakefield Kelvin was called to Minister in Healthcare Chaplaincy, starting out as Honorary Chaplain at Wakefield Hospice and then Pinderfields Hospital where he had been an inpatient for nine months in 1979/80 following a Road Traffic Accident which left him paraplegic.
He was appointed Chaplain at Leeds Teaching Hospital during which time he studied for and attained a Masters in Theology at Cardiff University. In 2010 he moved with his wife Jennie and three teenage daughters (Chloé, Katie and Ellie) to the Isle of Wight, and after a short time as Chaplain at Mountbatten Hospice and St Mary’s Hospital, he was appointed Senior Chaplain of Isle of Wight NHS Trust.
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Reflection
00:00:00
Speaker
I cannot say in hindsight, like some Paralympians, I would do it all again. No, I wouldn't wish paralysis on anyone. But if it means I could be an ambassador for God, or the finest that he could be glorified in my life, or to ensure that in all things he can have the preeminence, then I would reply every time, not my will, but yours be done.
Podcast Introduction and Guest
00:00:31
Speaker
Well, welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solus. I'm Gavin Matthews, and in the other presenters chair today, we have Dr. Simon Wenham. Now, last time I saw Simon, he was leaving my house in Scotland to drive to England in the middle of a horrendous storm.
00:00:44
Speaker
Simon, I'm assuming that as you're you're on this call, that you managed to get through the storm and home safely. Just about. Thank you very much. Yeah, it was slightly ah vehicles blowing around a bit on the motorway, but yes, back safely. Thank you.
00:00:56
Speaker
Wonderful. Now, we started the show today with quite a stirring quote. And it comes from the autobiography of Kelvin Burke, entitled Lake of Tears. And I'm delighted that Kelvin is here with us today. Kelvin, how are you? And where are you joining us from today?
Journey to Chaplaincy
00:01:11
Speaker
ah I'm well and thanks for having me on and I'm joining you from sunny Isle of Wight, down in the south of England, just a little island off Southampton.
00:01:23
Speaker
So yeah, nice to be here. Now that is not what I would expect to have as well. it was an archetypal Isle of Wight accent, is it I think I could detect the melodious tones of Ulster. Tell us, how did you end up down in the English Channel?
00:01:36
Speaker
Well, yeah I ended up dying in the Isle of Wight as ah I was appointed as lead chaplain of the the hospital and the hospice down here on the Isle Wight. About 2010 that was.
00:01:50
Speaker
ah So, but it was a favorite place of ours for many years. We'd been coming down here as tourists. It was part of my journey of recovery from injuries that you referred to there. And, um,
00:02:03
Speaker
So yeah, we just fell in love with the island as as somewhere to come as as tourists. And then we started thinking, wonder, will we ever be able to live here or whatever? And ah it it happened in a beautiful way. but Yeah, we've got three girls who came with us as teenagers and now they've grown up and they've got families of their own.
00:02:24
Speaker
And so we're all quite settled down here now, but the the accent is still
Accident and Recovery
00:02:29
Speaker
in there. i hope you can hear. Otherwise, my family over in Northern Ireland will be saying he's gone all swanky or whatever. that Absolutely. yeah we can We can understand you very clearly. It's great to have you with us. and You've obviously moved into a life of hospital chaplaincy work. It's an important part of the church's work, but it probably doesn't get as much attention as other areas. and Could you say a little bit about how you went down that route rather than what we might consider more conventional forms of ministry?
00:02:59
Speaker
ah Yeah, it's it's it's an interesting one because i had ah ah quite a serious car accident, which is what we've alluded to a couple of times. It was in 1979.
00:03:11
Speaker
I was young and sporty and 23 and healthy and well. And then I went off on a church trip ah to the Lake District and put a long story short, that we were coming back from quite a long hike up Honister Pass in the car.
00:03:28
Speaker
I went off the road up at a very steep incline, one and three. ah And the car career down a ravine and ended up on top of me and broke my back.
Embracing Chaplaincy
00:03:41
Speaker
And I was blue lighted to Whitehaven hospital. And then after six days in intensive care there, i was flown to the spinal injuries unit in Wakefield, which is where i had started living as a trainee accountant. Uh, and,
00:04:01
Speaker
I had a phobia about going back. That was an eight month ah sort of gap in my life as as far as Civvy Street was concerned. ah i had eight months of rehabilitation. I never wanted to see the site of a hospital again.
00:04:15
Speaker
And even when I went up for training to Durham, I trained at St. John's Cranmer in Durham. ah for a Church of England Ministry, and I dreaded getting a placement. I knew that they were going to give you a placement, and chaplaincy was one of the possibilities, and I dreaded getting that chaplaincy placement.
00:04:35
Speaker
So even then, when I was training for ministry, I didn't want to have anything to do with hospitals. um But over the course of my eight months in hospital, I realized that this part of the care I got from chaplains coming to visit me, as just befriending me and sometimes sharing and communion, sometimes praying with me, ah but often just talking rubbish about yesterday's football scores and things like that.
00:05:03
Speaker
It just brought the whole world out there into my
Patient Interaction and Spiritual Care
00:05:08
Speaker
bedside. And and I ah think subliminally it ah registered with me that these guys are doing holistic care and the spiritual care in a way that the rest of the medics aren't able to do it ah just because of of what their gifts were. And so, yeah, I ended up when I went forward for ministry,
00:05:32
Speaker
and my training vicar, oh Reverend Bill Henderson up in Wakefield, He suggested I go back and introduce myself to the hospital where I was actually a patient.
00:05:45
Speaker
And I had absolutely no desire to do it. and So I said, i'm I'm not keen on that. and he he said, well, go across the road to the hospice. So Wakefield Hospice was literally across the road from Pinderfield.
00:05:58
Speaker
And I introduced myself to them and just said, I'm a curate. i Very green. is that can you Can you use me in any way? And and they took me in for a year just. and mentoring and sitting with people and talking rubbish about football scores and stuff. And, and you know, often the conversation does come around to why are you doing this? And, ah you know, do you really believe in God? And, and you know, sometimes they'll bring up big questions.
00:06:26
Speaker
So, Yeah, that was a long answer to a very short question. But they they i ended up across the road and visiting the hospital that I had ah been marooned in for eight months. And the Lord brought some lovely healings through encounters
Faith in Medical Settings
00:06:45
Speaker
that I had there. but hits Most of my encounters with hospital chaplaincy have mostly been sort of more pastoral. You know, when I've been going into operations and someone has come around and has prayed with It's been really lovely when you're you know you're facing treatment to have pastoral care. um And obviously the hospital authorities would be against anything that they might deem as proselytizing. So my question is really, what extent can a hospital chaplain really share the gospel? To what extent can it be evangelistic rather than just the church caring for its own? What kind of opportunities and restrictions does a hospital or a hospice chaplain work under?
00:07:19
Speaker
ah Yeah, that's that's a very good point because you you do you have to recognize that you are working for a secular employer, the NHS, or in the hospice, it'ss ah it's the hospice is the employer, and their codes of contact will say that you don't prostize proselytize. and ah So you take that on board, ah but ah part of my DNA is, you know, back...
00:07:44
Speaker
i way back in the day before I even went forward for ministry in the church, what was to be involved in outreach and stuff like that. ah And so you can't take that out of the person. So it's it's part of who you are because it's part of the gifting that God has given us. so But it's not that you arrive at the bedside to visit somebody with with that secret agenda. I wonder if I can persuade them to create a conversation about Jesus or or whatever. So, so that that's a no go. And that, and that would be an abuse of the privilege of being invited into their, their bedside, which is their personal space.
Connecting with Patients
00:08:27
Speaker
So you have to respect that. Um, but often when you, particularly if you're visiting generically saying you go round award, there's sort of six, six beds in that bay and you go to bed a one and you just say to that person, um,
00:08:43
Speaker
Hi, my name's Calvin. I'm the chaplain. It's okay. I've introduced myself. And usually the next sentence is I'm not religious. that That's nearly always the next sentence. And then you you say, oh well, is it okay if we if we have a chat?
00:08:59
Speaker
and And then they allow you into their personal space. and And you can't abuse that because every person you visit in that situation is by definition a vulnerable adult.
00:09:12
Speaker
So if if you then go... along and say i've got something you need to hear then your abuse and your privilege have been invited into their space um but having said that particularly if it's not just a one-off encounter then the relationship builds up and the the person begins to trust that that you're not that kind of person who's going to ah abuse that um privilege that you have And often they'll bring it round. You know, the guy might say, yeah, I used to be a choir boy when I was a kid. And and and as a Christian, i think, you know, we we come to that encounter as a Christian. And so it's it's it's not proselytizing to say, oh you're a choir boy. Tell me, you know, how how was that for you? and And you take the lead from them.
00:10:01
Speaker
And I think it's quite a good practice to to listen and also that whole thing of doing arrow prayers and asking the Lord just to give you the wisdom and the right way to react. ah Because if if if you turned to everything, you'd have to sound like some kind of a...
00:10:17
Speaker
ah you know, comedian, if you ended up turning everything around to Jesus, you know, everything they say, you ended up with the the next sentence being about Jesus. But if you're very sensitive to hearing and what they're giving you, such as he's telling you part of his early story was that he was a choir boy, then there might be something. first My first thought would be that, oh, he he likes music. He might like hymns. he That might come come up again. it' So, so Those things register with you and as long as patient is driving the agenda, then I don't have a problem with that word
Impactful Chaplaincy Moments
00:10:54
Speaker
proselytizing. To me, it's redundant if if if they're asking you about Jesus.
00:11:00
Speaker
Thank you. And and it you've also mentioned that things like small acts of kindness, that's that's actually a large part of your role. and Would you say those are sort of more significant than we might might appreciate?
00:11:13
Speaker
I do. i don't I don't think it's just about hospitals as well. I just think just think generally we we forget those ah ah small things, do particularly in in early encounters with me and people. ah ah So when when I meet this person in bed 1A, I might notice that you know he's looking at me through glasses that are are filthy just because nobody bothered to help him clean his glasses or whatever. So I used to carry a little box of a little spray thing with me in my back pocket and uh and it would be from you know opticians and i just say can i clean your glasses while i'm talking to you and and so you you just again it's it's distracting away from the fact that i'm talking to the vicar you know the the fact is you know this man in front of me is doing something nice he's cleaning my glasses and then you have a little
00:12:06
Speaker
bit of a talk about how that went and and then you'll notice something like a child has drawn a card and is sitting on his bedside manner and you'll say is that somebody uh is that is that family or and you you'd get an encounter then talking about ah the grandchild that did that and you'll you'll you'll develop that into a conversation uh or or could be something crazy like i remember a guy ah who ah i have I'm a Chelsea fan, so there's a confession, but it came up in the and the conversation that he was a Chelsea fan.
00:12:41
Speaker
And I just happened to have been to a cup final that weekend and I'd brought back a Chelsea flag. And I said, I've got something for you. And I as dashed off in my wheelchair down the lift into the office and brought him back up this Chelsea flag and I put it on his bed.
00:12:56
Speaker
ah And you know, that started a thing between me and this guy. He he had multiple sclerosis and it it started that conversation with, I'm not religious. And ah we we just got to know each other and and befriended each other.
00:13:11
Speaker
and he ended up saying, you know, when my time comes and and when I'm deteriorating towards the end, would would you come and sit with me? And and there was a ah beautiful encounter. I got to know as his girlfriend and I prayed for the Lord to come into his his life towards the end, not just right at the end, but when he was quite lucid and with it and and he handed his life over to the Lord. and I'm sure
Approach to Prayer and Healing
00:13:37
Speaker
that he's in glory now. but And that all started through a Chelsea flag.
00:13:42
Speaker
was Would you believe it? Yeah, well, that Chelsea, i mean, that really adds new depth to the idea of treasure jars of clay, doesn't it? Chelsea fandom to communicate the gospel.
00:13:57
Speaker
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00:14:28
Speaker
And now, back to the programme.
00:14:32
Speaker
When you look back over your many years of hospital chaplaincy work, what some of the the other highlights and joys as well as challenges that you look back on with most sort of fondness of that that was really good to have been there at that moment you've shared one with us in in the last few moments there are any other particular things that you look back and say oh that was just a precious time to be with someone and present in their life at that moment yeah yeah i mean quite often the the some of the most precious ones come out of the the feisty and difficult uh beginnings and uh at
00:15:08
Speaker
I don't know why it should be like that, but, but sometimes if you hang in there, when somebody tells you to F off, which has happened, you know, and, and which you should always, you know, ah obey them if, if they do definitely want you to leave. But, uh,
00:15:25
Speaker
but sometimes people are being feisty and it's actually because of what they're going through themselves. They're actually using you as a, as a safe way to let off steam and anger, even if it's directed at God, you know, they can't be a God cause I'm in here. you know, and often those encounters, know,
00:15:43
Speaker
end up in something where you learn to trust each other. i remember i'm I'm a trainee. but Well, ah I mentioned I was a trainee accountant, but i so I am a chartered accountant by training.
00:15:56
Speaker
And i went to visit a businessman called Donald and he said, ah was one of those guys that he got up and he dressed, it seemed like in a suit, but he was certainly dressed with a shirt and tie and jumper sitting on his bed. Every time I saw him, he it was like as if he was running the whole hospital from his bed. It's just give you that kind of appearance.
00:16:19
Speaker
And so I introduced myself to Donald and he said he was CEO of a company. and And I'd known from the staff giving me that a heads up that he just had as some bad news and that his prognosis wasn't good. He'd got a cancer.
00:16:33
Speaker
which had returned and and his his life was ah was shortened by that. he you know He was told he probably wouldn't see the next Christmas, which was probably ah six or seven months ahead.
00:16:46
Speaker
and so I spoke to him and um i just just said, ah Donald, how do you cope with that if I haven't been told something like that? And he says,
00:17:00
Speaker
I should be all right when I get to the other side. and and I said, you mind if asked you, what you know where do you get that confidence from? He said, well, I've done nothing wrong. I've been quite benevolent. i've I've given,
00:17:13
Speaker
plenty of way I've looked after as staff. And he started this list. and And I just said, that's fantastic. I said, do you mind ah if if I tell you as ah as a Christian how I think it it it works whenever ah we get to the other side? And he says, yeah, go on then.
00:17:30
Speaker
and And I said, Donald, it may be shocking, but it's not about what you have done, but it's about what Christ has done for us. That's a Christian viewpoint. And he said, that's interesting. And and then over in the next two, three weeks,
00:17:45
Speaker
of visits, um he let me come alongside him and explain to him ah the story. ah Often through, ah you would you have a little booklet, something like Journey Into Life, and and you would use that as a tool. And ah to just to give him space, really, to take in what what you've said.
00:18:05
Speaker
and I remember coming up to him one day, and and he he just said, ah and again, in a very business-like way, he said to me, um ive I've said the prayer and I feel safe now.
00:18:19
Speaker
And and i I wanted to correct him and say, actually, you feel saved. But I just thought it's it's a better way. You know, he didn't have the jargon and and he made his peace with God just through taking time to read the things he gave him and allow me to to pray with him ah towards the the end of his commitment. And a beautiful thing then just to share,
00:18:44
Speaker
communion with him as his first communion. And yeah, that was a lovely story of of Donald, somebody who really, I imagine he was was quite a tough businessman, and but but the Lord got through to him and won his heart.
Effects of Personal Experience
00:19:00
Speaker
It was a ah lovely encounter. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. i wondered, did you have any advice when it comes to, I think Christians obviously want to support people well, particularly when they're going through suffering, but there can be a tension of sort of knowing, for example, should we pray for healing? Should we say that to someone? um And I know that's that's a particularly sensitive area for all kinds of reasons. I wondered if you had any advice on what we should say as Christians to those who are suffering. Yeah.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think, again, the you need to think in terms of ah who's driving the agenda here. So if you arrive with the agenda that this hospital should be empty because God could heal every person in here, i mean, it logically, that's true.
00:19:49
Speaker
um But if if you go as as a kind of part of your mission is to empty that hospital through healing prayer, then I would say, well, certainly the chaplaincy team would say to you, you're not welcome on our team.
00:20:04
Speaker
And people do go in like that. And and quite often they they'll springboard off somebody that they're visiting visiting legitimately. So in other words, you're going to visit the person in bed a six and you just catch the eye of the guy in bed A1 and you go over.
00:20:20
Speaker
and you say to him you know, you need the Lord and of whatever, that that would be an abuse, again, of your visiting privilege of of the person in bed, A6. So I would say, listen for what ah what the Lord is saying to them, particularly if they have faith. So if they're saying, ah you know, will you pray for my healing, then honor that and and and be bold and and pray.
00:20:44
Speaker
ah Maybe question for clarity, what do they mean? Do they mean healing and coping with the with the pain they're feeling? If it's like a cancer or something like that, where where it would be a healing that would be as a spectacular miracle that could be evidenced, that then clarify that.
00:21:05
Speaker
and And then just as brother and sister or two brothers to the Lord, just just bring it to the Lord and and and be bold. Just imagine that you're entering the throne of grace at that point and and just saying, Lord, we're two people here and we're bringing you this need. and will Will you meet it? And you you don't have to fast forward and um worry about how the answer is going to be because you're you're meeting the pastoral need of that person who wanted you to pray for healing.
00:21:35
Speaker
But if just to flip it around the other way, if you arrive there thinking, you know, we we could do some business on this cancer because, you know, the Lord can do this, ah then you can do a lot of damage to the person who who is sick.
00:21:53
Speaker
ah the victim and and in some ways because you' you've actually pounced on them and seen them as a way of maybe and in in some respects getting some glory for yourself as being the person who got rid of this cancer. Of course, it's all hypothetical, but ah yeah it It is important to to be um be cautious there. And I mean, I've had a whole belly full of of a year, of a lifetime of of people trying to pray for healing for my own paralysis. I mean, I'm i'm paralyzed. I'm sat talking it to you.
00:22:28
Speaker
I'm in a wheelchair ah and um I must be the most prayed for person over the last 40 years. And, you know, you mentioned it, you know, or Robert's Prayer Towers and over on the West Coast and, you know, the and in British Columbia and ah over in... a New York and and all these places that people have were petitioned for prayer around the globe, whenever Calvin Burke was was injured, because my mom was involved in in the healing ministry ah when I was a kid and and was became quite well known as somebody who traveled again and in America and in Scandinavian Europe, even England. um And so so she was known as somebody who would pray for the sick.
00:23:18
Speaker
And then suddenly her her wee boy, I was 23, by the way, but her her wee boy was was injured and there was much petitioning of the heavenly realm for my healing. And um and ah still will take a healing. you know if if we can yeah If God can keep it on the agenda, I'd be very happy with that.
00:23:40
Speaker
um But again, I've had a lot of people give me some amateurish counseling as to why it hasn't happened. It's usually because I've got cinema life because I've got a grudge against the guy that was driving or because I haven't gotten a fifth. But usually the fingers pointing at the person when you receive this.
00:24:00
Speaker
amateur counseling and it's quite destructive and and it it damages the people. And and let's face it, you as as, let's say you're the person praying for that person, you walk off into the this this sunset and you've left the person in a heap unhealed at having to deal with the fact that you've you've gone off home to your family or wherever it is and and you can forget all about it. But the person that is dealing with the ah unresolved issue of why didn't it work is left in a heap.
00:24:37
Speaker
ah so I don't know if that answers your question, but it it it it's important to be cautious, I think. is a I think we've got time for one last question. What I wanted to ask you was in the in a quote that we started the program with, You said, I wouldn't wish paralysis on anyone, but if it means I can be an ambassador for God, then I would say not my will but yours be done. Has the fact that you go into the hospital as ah a fellow sufferer, you go into the ward in a wheelchair, open doors for the gospel for you?
00:25:05
Speaker
oh Well, just to correct one thing there, i've I'm ah retired now, so so when when I... when i was going into the hospital. ah Yeah, it was a very strange thing. Often my chaplaincy colleagues would would look at me and say, you know, you're lucky because you're arriving there ah in a wheelchair and these people are or seeing you as somebody that has empathy with them. It's just, it's unspoken, but they assume an empathy because they assume you've been through stuff.
00:25:38
Speaker
and And rarely did ah would I refer to the fact that I've i've had it a bit of a bashing on Honister Pass or whatever. ah But yes, that phrase, ah it's an assumed empathy, ah is is something that that's just there. And it It does help. Another thing that helps us when I arrive at the bedside, I'm eye to eye level with these people, whereas other chaplains and visitors, when they arrive, they're towering over the person.
00:26:09
Speaker
So then the the person that's towering over them is thinking, should I sit down? And then if you sit down, then the person in the bed is thinking, oh, dear, they're going to stay forever. So, you know, you can't really win if you arrive there as an able-bodied
Reflection and Conclusion
00:26:23
Speaker
person. but But yeah, for me, it it has helped with this, as as I say, assumed empathy.
00:26:32
Speaker
Great. Well, thank thank you so much. I i like that point about eye to eye as well, because, of course, God is seeing us eye to eye on on that level. and But yeah, thank you so much for just sharing all that advice and encouragement. And by the way, um you you mentioned your story. If people are interested, there's a book, Lake of Tears, we've mentioned it by Kelvin Burke.
00:26:51
Speaker
I've read it, very, very powerful reminder of just how God can work through challenging times. I also like the onus on Matthew 28, 20, which is just the reminder of God being with us always through thick and thin. think what struck me with this conversation is perhaps actually we don't talk about this enough in churches, but actually it's a completely normal part of life. And it reminded me a little of, we had Matthew Neiman on the show couple of weeks ago, and he made the point that our population is simply getting older, So actually the church needs to think about how it engages better with the elderly. And I thought that had some overlap with what we're talking about here, even though obviously illness affects all ages.
00:27:32
Speaker
So Les is obviously about getting the gospel message outside the four walls of the church. and But i think I think we can understandably be nervous about how we communicate with those in need, particularly in hospitals. I actually have a mother-in-law that I'm visiting in a facility, and it remains quite a challenging situation for the family, sort of what you say and do. So I've i found your comments really, really helpful. So thank you for that. and and and Finally, it just it also reminded me of C.S. Lewis's point about pain sometimes being in God's megaphone. It's a way that he can sometimes get people's attention. Very challenging times can be you know the the only time some people think about ah reflecting on parts of their life, what happens after death.
00:28:13
Speaker
and and and reflecting on our past as well, the sort of good and good and bad aspects of it. So thank you so much just for helping us think over how we sort of carefully balance what we should and shouldn't say, being attentive to to to actually what God is wanting to do rather than what we perhaps think we might want to do in in that situation. So yeah, thank you ah so much. and So that's it for another episode. Thank you so much for listening and do tune in again in the next fortnight for another inspiring guest on the Pet Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Sobas.